Let's create things that matter. Together.
My guest today is Carole Kirschner who, after spending fifteen years as a television development executive, a former Vice President of Television for Steven Spielberg’s Amblin Entertainment and a Comedy Development executive at CBS, decided to switch to the other side of the desk to help creative professionals build a thriving career in the entertainment industry. If there is anyone who has been on the studio executive side who ‘gets us,’ Carole is the one.
In today’s conversation, Carole shares the unadulterated reality of what it takes to have a successful creative career. We dive deep into the qualities you need to have as well as the right way to tell your story in order for you to stand out. Carole shares her strategies for networking to help you draw attention and leave a lasting impression, whether you’re doing it in a mixer, cold outreach or through social media.
My conversation with Carole is filled with strategies and mindsets from an executive’s perspective to set you on the path to creative success.
Carole Kirschner spent fifteen years as a television development executive. A former Vice President of Television for Steven Spielberg’s first Amblin Entertainment and a Comedy Development exec at CBS, she’s had the privilege of working with some of the most respected writers in the industry.
Switching to the other side of the desk she became a consultant and created and runs the CBS/Paramount Writers Mentoring Program. And has been the director of the WGA Showrunner Training Program since its inception.
Carole, through her career coaching practice, Carole Kirschner Entertainment Career Strategies works primarily with screenwriters who are stuck or need help navigating the political landscape. She is also an international speaker and her book, Hollywood Game Plan: How to Land a Job in Film, TV and Digital Entertainment is taught in colleges across the country.
Zack Arnold: I'm here today with Carole Kirschner, who's the director of the WGA Showrunner Training Program. You're also the creator and director of the Paramount Writers Mentoring Program. You're also the author of Hollywood Gameplan: How to Land a Job in Film, TV or Digital Entertainment, I'm gonna have to take a breath because I'm just getting started so many things that must be listed. You've also spent 15 years as a television development executive and former vice president of television for Steven Spielberg's Amblin Entertainment. You were also a comedy Development Executive at CBS. And on top of all this, and much more that I don't even have time to go into because we only have 90 minutes. You're also an international speaker and entertainment career coach, I'm already exhausted. And I haven't introduced you yet. Carole. What a wonderful pleasure to have you here. So excited about this today.
Carole Kirschner: Well, I'm so excited to be here. I'm honored to be here, given what your mission is. And the fact that we share so many values I can tell. And so many approaches in in the same way to do it in a humane and yet realistic, no BS, but supportive way.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I agree. And I got so I very rarely do I use the word lucky because I you have an entire chapter in your book on luck, I feel very much the same way. But there is an element of luck in that I discovered your mentee Nicole Nicole levy it somewhat randomly through an email message from a publicist, I interviewed her absolute gem of a person great conversation, we're going to put a link in the show notes to that conversation with her, which then led me to discovering you. And then once I discovered you and your book, and I'm reading through it, I'm thinking, if I didn't have timestamps on my website in my content over 10 years, you would sue me for plagiarism. Because you and I are on so many of the same pages, similar frameworks with slightly different names, with very different or very similar missions in value. So just to meet a like minded peer slash Expert Advisor in the same space in a totally different craft was so enlightening and motivating for me, because as I'm sure you might attest to, when you decide you want to put yourself out there beyond your craft, and you actually want to be a teacher or a coach. It's it's kind of tumbleweeds, you don't have a giant peer group of people that understand what you're going through. It's a relatively new field. So to have somebody that's been as successful as you are, that's validating a lot of the same ideas that I had been brainstorming and helping my students with. Needless to say, just it's all it's all very exciting for me to know that you and I get to have this conversation on the record today.
Carole Kirschner: Yeah, me too. I'm really looking forward to it, Zack.
Zack Arnold: So where I actually want to start is given everything that I listed about development executive and working for studios and all these other areas, you're talking by and large to vast majority of below the line craftspeople. And as soon as we hear studio executives like, no, no, oh, my God, they don't understand this, right? This Yeah, don't get how this really works. And I just I want to read from a couple of things from your book that just absolutely bounced off the page. And I've probably never gone into the appendix of somebody's book at the beginning of an interview. However, when I read Appendix A of your book, I'm like, Oh my God, you so understand us. So basically, what you have is the Hollywood English writers dictionary, to schmooze equals to befriend scum, to pitch equals to gravel shamelessly, to freelance equals to collect unemployment. Producers are frustrated writer writers, a frustrated director, directors a frustrated actor, an actor is a frustrated human. And of the many others the last one I pulled up that I thought editors and writers would appreciate the most trying punch it up actually equals I have absolutely no idea what I want. Yeah, so I say all that to make it very clear to my audience, you get us. So I'm very, very excited, very excited about the fact that even though you're on the different side of the business in the industry, you really get both the business of Hollywood and the art and the craft of Hollywood.
Carole Kirschner: Absolutely. And they go together show business. No, they aren't the craft business. It's a business. And you have to approach it that way.
Zack Arnold: Here's where I actually want to start. Because the I one of the areas where you and I are very similar is when it comes to the idea of pitching yourself or branding yourself or putting yourself out there. You have to be a great storyteller. That to me is the foundation. And there are many frameworks that you have that are similar to mine with slightly different names, but actually want to start with a part of your story that really intrigues me. When I list off the resume and all the things that you've done at the studio level, the executive level, literally spent years working with Steven Spielberg himself,
Carole Kirschner: Not years, two years, two years, let's be honest. Two years.
Zack Arnold: But two years is years. It's not it's not singular it is years.
Carole Kirschner: I don't want to blow it out of proportion.
Zack Arnold: Sure and I appreciate that. But there are a few people that can say I worked two years helping develop projects with with Spielberg himself. The point being that it brought up the very first question that I have which is why teach? Why be a coach? It doesn't seem like you need to be a career coach or a teacher or an online writer like you clearly have been very successful in the industry. So why decided that I want to go down this path?
Carole Kirschner: Really good question. And there's a couple of answers to that. One is, I always wanted to be a teacher, when I was like, 10, I would play teacher I would Xerox tests and hand it out to my friends. And I just love teaching, I started as a stand up comic. So I love to perform, and to be able to perform and have it have meaningful content is the best for me. Also, being an executive is, is fun, but stressful. The perks are amazing, especially working for Steven, the perks are ridiculous, you just the three most powerful words in the business when I was working with him was Stephen would like, and that's all you had to say. And you got everything you wanted. But the politics are terrible. I hate politics. I hate that that was like 70% of the job. And the creative was 30% of the job. And it just wasn't what I wanted anymore. Now as a consultant, you know, to the Writers Guild of America, and CBS Paramount, you know, writers mentoring program, and, you know, to people that invite me and hire me to teach, all I have to do is make one person happy. And I love that. And my whole my whole ethos is how can I make your life easier? You know what? No ego, just let me help you. How can I help you? And living like that is so much less stressful, so much more enjoyable? And does that answer your question?
Zack Arnold: Not only does it answer my question, but it just goes deep to the root of how similar you and I really are. Because I too, I've been told my entire life against my will when I was younger, oh, you will be a teacher. My father is a teacher. My mother is a teacher, my aunt is a teacher, my grandmother was a teacher, my wife is a teacher. Oh, by the way, two of my sisters are teachers. So education is who we are in my family. And of course, I'm like, I'm not going to be a teacher. I'm going to go to Hollywood. And I'm going to make movies and I'm going to be a film star. And I'm going to act and direct and eventually lead to editing. And then all of a sudden, same thing as you climb to the very highest levels, at least in the TV editing world. And realize I just can't stand the politics. I just I can't I love the craft. I love the art. I love a lot of the people not all of them. But in by and large I love the people that I spend my time with, but the politics are just killing me. Also the hours that demands the the unrealistic expectations were killing me. And when I realized that my identity was so wrapped up in this one thing that I did my craft and like, what what could I possibly do to make a living and then it just it evolved over time to first a podcast and a blog. And of course then coaching. It's like, Oh, I'm just a 21st century teacher. Like it's different than the way that my my wife does it for LAUSD and a third grade classroom, right. But I teach for a living slash, I'm an entrepreneur. And that's where I think the you and I have have so many similarities. And what one of the things that I found really interesting and kind of where I want to start that'll lead us into this idea of better telling your story is you talk about these basic qualifications that you think most people need to have, most of them are what you would expect. But there was one that stuck out to me. And it said that you need to be entrepreneurial, which I agree with, but most people that just want to start at the bottom rung of the ladder and climb the career ladder, they would think I don't want to be an entrepreneur, I just want to be a writer or an editor or a director. But I want to know why you had entrepreneurial on the list. I know why I would have but I'm curious why you had it on your list.
Carole Kirschner: Two reasons. One is that regardless of what your job is, you're an editor in your Are you still editing or is that in your previous life?
Zack Arnold: For the most part, I've retired, I'm going to be finishing up the final season of Cobra Kai. But other than that, I've retired and I'm not taking any future editing gigs. And this is now what I do all day, every day. So.
Carole Kirschner: Fabulous. Well, if you were working as an editor, if you work as an editor, if you work as a writer, a director, a cinematographer, your work is your business, and you have to be entrepreneurial. You can't. You can do whatever you want. Of course, I never say you can't, but for the best outcome, you have to think about your career as your business. And, and the other part of it is, this is a gig economy. I'm sure people you've you've that's was your experience. That was my experience. And in a gig economy. You have to be an entrepreneur, you have to keep looking for new work. You have to expand out what you do and who you know. And if you are a creator, the reason why you need to be an entrepreneur is these days, there's no barrier to creating and breaking through. And but you have to want to do it, you have to know how to, you have to have the talent, the art, the craft, but you also have to know how to market. And that's entrepreneurship as well. So that's why I do.
Zack Arnold: We're totally on the same page. And what I always say similar to what you said, is I'll talk often, one of the things that I do when I do a live event, as I say, How many of you in here are business owners out of 100, 7 raised their hands, like right, sorry, how many of you are business owners, nine hands on, like every hand in this room needs to be up right now. Everybody here not only has a product, you are not only the product, you are also the service, you have to think like an entrepreneur because there is no world at this point where you get in at the bottom rung of one company, you prove yourself you get good at your craft 35 years later, you retire with a gold watch, it just does not work that way. Even in the agency structure, even in the studio structure. Nobody in that world climbs one ladder and gets to the top there is no more ladder. It's all about paths. And that's where I believe like you do that having the entrepreneurial spirit and understanding how do I package How do I market myself? How do I brand myself? Or more importantly, how do I not have to do any of those if I'm a good storyteller, right? That's where I think you and I are in such agreement. So one of the area's I want to start going into is helping entrepreneurs slash creatives slash artists, slash storytellers. How do we structure our story because we don't even think about ourselves as storytellers we think we have to sell ourselves. And I don't think that's necessary. And you talk a lot about the different parts of your story types of story, how to structure it. I talked about this psalm with Chris Vogler who wrote the writers journey, I want to link to that episode and pair it with this one. But I would like to know from your perspective, how can I structure my story, so I can make sure that I go down the path that I want to when I surround myself with the right people?
Carole Kirschner: Sure, sure. Well, what I call it and I call it in the book is, I call it your personal PR strategy. Again, if you're if you have a business, you need a PR strategy. And I think it's made up of three things. One is your personal logline. And this is all this is connected to writing screenwriting, your personal logline, which answers the question, what do you do? And the thing is in Hollywood, I don't know about us, we're better in Hollywood, everyone wants to know what you do. The truth is, they want to know what you can do for them. But they're gonna ask you, what do you do? And this is the 32nd, answer, 30 seconds, answer. 30 To 60 seconds, then there, then there's what I call your personal nuggets. And I stole that term from Glenn Mazzara, who was the showrunner on The Walking Dead. And what they are is they're the anecdotes of your life. They're the gold of your life. And this harkens back to being a storyteller. They are the stories of your life, and you need to be able to tell them. I once heard a senior level executives say, one of the biggest sins in Hollywood is being boring punishable by non employment. In this business, regardless of what your job is, you need to be engaging, and you need to be memorable. And nuggets help you be memorable. And then the last thing is what I call your personal a story. And it's a chronological narrative of your life with you as the protagonist. It highlights what makes you memorable and different, and your successes. And the narrative drive is where you started, what you had to overcome to get to where you are, and where you want to go, where you are now where you want to go. I'm sure you've said this before, but we're all Hard Wired for Story. And that where you started what you had to overcome how you overcame it, where you're going, that's story and a personal a story goes on for about two minutes you and it answers the question. And for anybody who's been in an interview that it's Tell me about yourself, people are going to ask you that. I don't know anybody who's been in this business who hasn't been asked that a number of times. And your personal A story is how you answer that.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, this is one of those one of those areas where you and I have different names for the exact same process. Like literally you should be suing me for plagiarism because it's, I can't believe how similar our approaches are. The way that I talk about it is that you have to understand how to tell the story of where you are in your hero's journey. And I always say that the structure is here's what I'm doing now. So what do you currently do in your free I'm work, here's where I'm going next. And then the third piece that I have is, here are the obstacles, here are the things that are stopping me and where I'm seeking guidance or support. So you can surround yourself with the mentors. And the advisors are like, Oh, I'm really engaged and interested in your story. And I might be able to help you with this obstacle, because the hero's journey is all about watching somebody except their call to adventure, and watching them go through this change in this transformation. So I think what you call the personal a story is just what I call structuring your own hero's journey so that people know, here's where you are, where you're going next. So that I then know, how can I help you after of course, like you talk about, and I do as well, I want to put myself out there to make other people's lives easier and help them first. Because if, if I Oh, go ahead.
Carole Kirschner: I was just gonna say I think a slight difference between what your your hero's journey and my personal a story is mine is the story of what's happened up until this moment, to give them context of who they are. And then from there, it is where you going. And I love that you would put in the obstacles to that. And let people sort of lean in and stay with it, see if they want to help you. Because most people do. I mean, people think that Hollywood is everybody's a jerk. And you know, there's plenty of jerks, but everybody got here somebody some way by somebody helping them. And most people are decent. And if they respond and resonate with your story, they will help they'll give you at least 15 to 20 minutes of their time. Do you know what I mean? And if you impress them, we all want to find that, you know, rock star, and then you know, help them and sort of take a little credit for that. So I totally agree with you.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and the thing that I always mentioned, it's same exact conversation with my students were when they first come to me like, Well, everybody's busy, and they're more important, and nobody wants to help. And I say if you learn how to better tell your story, it's not that people don't want to help you. It's that they don't know how to help you. And if the only way they can help you is by giving you a job or passing around your resume, you are going to strike out 99 times out of 100. But if you make it clear how they can help you by and large, most people want to it's tapping into that, right that that field like you said, we're wired for storytelling. It's kind of a side note. Are you familiar with a will store the author will store he wrote a book called The Science of storytelling? No, no, no, I did a recent podcast with him the same time I do with Chris Vogler. The reason being I am obsessively curious about things and I was fixated on the question, Why? Why are we hardwired for storytelling? Why am I so obsessed with with stories? And we'll store answer this question in like a 250 page book about just evolutionary from an evolutionary perspective and neurological perspective, here's why we've needed stories throughout all of human civilization. And it was fascinating. So I won't go any more into that, because he and I already did. But if you're not familiar with it, you might find it interesting, because when you say we're hardwired, now, I understand why based on the conversation that I had with him, which is why it's so important that to me, that this is an absolutely essential part of your arsenal. And going back to this idea of where we were talking about being entrepreneurs, and the gig economy, Mina at the risk of not getting on a soapbox, or starting a TED talk, my 32nd version of this, which is very similar to one of the things that you say is if you go into Google, and I've now tested this with chat GPT and say, How do I become a doctor? Or how do I become a brain surgeon? As you would say, I know exactly how to do it. It's simple. It's very challenging. Here are the steps. Here's the timeline, as long as I meet certain benchmarks, I can literally become a brain surgeon. How do I become a writer in Hollywood? Well, you got to pay your dues and put yourself out there and network network network. It's like that's not a structure. That's not a path. I know, those are important components. And I just firmly believe that our education system is so wildly outdated in preparing us to weather the gig economy and tell our stories, and pitch our ideas and brand ourselves that I really feel there needs to be a paradigm shift in the way that we educate people about how they actually navigate the paths of the gig economy, which goes back to this idea of being so entrepreneurial.
Carole Kirschner: Yes. And I've taught at USC and UCLA and different places, and in film schools, when they graduate you with a degree and about $200,000 worth of debt. They don't teach you about the business and how you navigate the business and how you break in and how you succeed. And that's in large part why I wrote the book, because, you know, people were coming out of film schools and not even going to film schools and not having the tools to get what they wanted and needed. So yeah, I agree with you entirely.
Zack Arnold: So I wanted to do that zoom out for a second just to make sure I didn't to kind of neglect that I wanted to give people the framing because so often, and I'm sure you hear from your students, especially those that are more seasoned in the industry, if they're coming out of college, there's still a lot to learn, right? But if somebody comes to you specifically with career transitions, of which I deal a lot more with that, there's this guilt or the shame of why don't I know this already? Why can't I figure this out? It's because nobody taught you ever. So why would you expect to know this stuff? And I'm sure you did. It's the same thing?
Carole Kirschner: Absolutely. Absolutely. I have clients that go from pre WGA to show runners. So I know the whole spectrum of people and what their issues are. And I certainly have dealt with people who have made a transition from a life outside of the entertainment industry. And but their dream has always been to be in the entertainment industry, often as writers or directors. And, you know, I have recovering lawyers recovering doctors who come and pursue these fields. Yeah.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I get a lot of engineers. That seems to be one. Yeah. People that have gone out of the the engineering field I had, I can never remember the term but it was a photo electro biochemist, I think is the right term, basically, scientists that that harness the power of the sun, like solar panels and all the other crazy science that I don't understand. So I've talked to a lot of people in varying industries, and it's always the same thing. I'm supposed to know this stuff. I'm like, No, you're not. Same thing with time management, say all these things that were never taught. We're given dates. And we're given timelines and memorization and formulas and calculations. But there's never this critical thinking about how do I design the story of my own life? Yes, and I totally agree. And I feel that's a gap that you've just so well filled specifically for writers. And now that we've kind of taken this broad view. Now I want to zoom back into where we were before. And I'm gonna go deeper into the nuance of telling our story. So from your perspective, we have a personal logline, which, like you said, 30 seconds or less, it's not even really an elevator pitch. It's just here, the basics about me, then we've got the a story, then we had these nuggets are these anecdotes, so I'm gonna break these down. So give me an example of a really bad logline that you might hear at a party or mixer.
Carole Kirschner: Okay, a really bad one.
Zack Arnold: Really bad. Well, let's, let's start with the bad ones. And let's improve them. Let's let's, let's put some hypothetical person on the hot seat right now.
Carole Kirschner: Okay, I like a lot of different things. I'm a writer, I'm a director. I'm also an actor, and a producer. And I haven't, you know, I'm working on a lot of projects right now and a lot of interest in the business for it. And I
Zack Arnold: You know what, I'm gonna stop you right there. I've got a friend over there. I'm just gonna go say hi to them. I'll be right back.
Carole Kirschner: Sure. Right. Oh, I see what you're saying. I thought you literally had a friend there.
Zack Arnold: No. Like that. If you were if you were doing that 30 seconds. I'm like, No, I'm out. Right? That's right. So so what, what's wrong with that?
Carole Kirschner: Why is that a bad what that? Part of it is, it's too many things. It's too many things. I don't think you're serious. If you're serious. You might want to be a writer, producer, writer, actor. You're going to be a writer, actor, director, there are high finance, but to just reel off all these things you want to do. I don't believe you. You don't. I'm not taking you seriously. The other is you're rambling. And I'm bored. And like you, it's like, Excuse me, gotta go get a drink. It needs to be concise. It needs to be compelling. There was nothing really compelling about that. And it trailed off. And it was, well, I said all the reasons why.
Zack Arnold: I didn't even like to trail off because I was so bored. And I had other people that I wanted to meet. I was 30 seconds in, and I'm sure everybody has seen this. You're in the middle of conversation, and they're talking. And you're already thinking who's the next person I want to talk to? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. Well, what say that again? I didn't hear you. Right. Yeah. Because it's just it's boring rambling. And it's not specific?
Carole Kirschner: Yes, yes. And you just said something. And I forgot what it was. But it was really good. It was really good.
Zack Arnold: So given all of that, now, let's talk about how do we make this better? If I come in and say, well, in the I think the the way to frame this even more clearly, in you alluded to this already, but I feel like if you can nail the answer to three questions, you're on the road to success in this industry, the first of which is, so what do you do? Or what are you working on? As a variation of that? Tell me about yourself? And do you have any other questions? You can answer those three questions really, really well, whether it's in a networking perspective, or it's in a job interview, you're going to be in the top 5%. So right now we're in the context of we're at a mixer and it's you know, so what are you working on or what do you do and you just gave the really bad version? Now let's right shot this and give somebody the really good version of their logline. Right.
Carole Kirschner: Um, let me do my logline. Yeah, let's do it. I think I've got it down. I've been doing I bet you do. Let me do. Well, I'm the director of the WGA showrunner training program I created and I'm the director of the CBS Paramount writers mentoring program. I love working with people one on one also. So I'm an entertainment career coach as well. I spent 15 years as a Development Executive at CBS and at Steven Spielberg's first Amblin television division.
Zack Arnold: I love it. So my name is Zack Arnold, I'm a recently retired Hollywood film and TV editor did for about 20 years. Our most recent show was lead editor and associate producer on Cobra Kai have worked on Empire Glee, Burn Notice is another one of my big shows. I'm in the process of building a career strategizing your career coaching company, as well as podcasting. And essentially, I work with artists, creatives and storytellers and I help them build the more balanced more fulfilling and sustainable, creative careers that they deserve.
Carole Kirschner: Perfect, perfect, we've got our story down.
Zack Arnold: We've got our story down. Exactly. The key here to me is that it's going to make it really easy for me to understand in less than a minute, is this a conversation that's both even worth having? And number two, can it be mutually beneficial? What the what I always tell my students that I think we're on the same page, it's never about listening and thinking, oh, what can this person do for me? Let me see what position they're in? And how can they help me? All I'm thinking when somebody is telling their story is, Where can I help them. And that, to me is the mindset shift that makes all the difference in the world. And you've got the same strategies in your book. So talk to me more about how we shift the mindset from, it's about me to instead it's about you.
Carole Kirschner: Right, we really are on the exact same page. Because the, the reason why most people hate networking, and I hate the term networking, I really love connecting much more. Because it can just be about connecting or making, if not a friend, somebody you're genuinely interested in knowing is I think the reason why people hate it is they feel smarmy about it, they feel like somebody, either somebody's going to do this to them, or they're going to do it to somebody where they talk at them for five minutes. And they talk all about themselves. And they don't pay attention to you. And if it's you I've heard, you know, my clients have said, I, I feel bad because I feel like I should be getting something from them. I don't want to do it. I don't know how to do it. And I just would rather not do it. So one of the best ways to take the pressure off is exactly what you're saying, which is go into every conversation with not what can they do for me take some pressure off of you say, how can how can I help them as they're talking? And I also believe it should be 70% them 30%. New, big and be curious. And and you said you were curious? Sack, it's be curious, ask question. And if you think about the people that you like, when you meet them, they have this upbeat energy, and they're interested in knowing you, and you want to know them more. So it mutually beneficial relationships is what it's all about. And it's that network of people, they're going to help you throughout your career. So yeah.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. I love that. And one of my favorite lines you had in your entire book about this, literally the vocabulary word networking, I think most of the people, if not all of them in my audience will relate to this line. If you say the word networking to some people, they get excited. You say that same word to other people, and they start to hyperventilate. I know which group I have listening to this one right now. And it's not the ones that get excited about the word networking. And the if I if they said, Well, can you just give me five good questions to ask in a networking conversation or to send via cold outreach email or via social media? I would say you're asking the wrong question. Because if I give you the questions, but your mindset hasn't shifted already from it's not about me, it's about them, you're still going to lead towards what can I get out of the conversation? But yeah, once it's about how can I help them, then you ask totally different questions because you have a different objective. And I haven't I dive deeper into the science that proves that across all industries has nothing to do with entertainment. But the number one scientifically proven way to get somebody to like you is get them to talk about themselves. That's all that it takes, like when they're like, I don't know how to provide value. What do I need to mow their lawn or edit their film for free and like, just get them to tell a story that they're excited to tell? Well, it can't be that easy.
Carole Kirschner: It is really it is. We're doing it right now. That's right. And you know, people often say to me, but this person is so high up on the food chain. I don't know No, I don't know how I can help them. And what I believe and I'm sure you do, too, is that every artist wants to hear that somebody responds to their work. So if you could say in a genuine way, but also in a in a, in a specific way, something about their work that moved you motivated, you touched you, you're giving them a gift. You don't need to do more than that. But it can't just be ah, I love Cobra Kai, it's got to be something specific that impacted you. That's what people will respond to.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, well, once again, plagiarizing. I mean, it's just absolute plagiarism, the way that I have completely pillaged all of your work. And I'm just repurposing it. Because I say the same. One of the things they go really deep into I've got a three step framework specifically for cold outreach. And the first one is you got to nail the value. And value is not your awesome, your show is awesome. Or I watched this episode. And I really liked the way that you use the chiaroscuro low key lighting techniques really show the way that the character is feeling vulnerable, like, dear Lord, don't give me film school analysis. But if you could just simply share how a choice that I made from my, just my own experiences, which is why I do creative work had a positive impact on you. I will talk about that all day long. Because when you boil down why I believe that the vast majority of creative professionals put ourselves what we put ourselves through, is because we want to have a positive impact on others. And when we're in our small dark rooms, and I don't think there's any more closer analogue to the lifestyle of an editor than the lifestyle of a writer, don't you want to know at some point that all of the things you were excited about a tool in the morning while you're writing that thing, and listening to your score that actually touch somebody they want to hear? That doesn't matter where they are on the food chain compared to you?
Carole Kirschner: That's right, you're, again, singing the same song? Singing definitely the same song, for sure.
Zack Arnold: So let me let me ask you this question. Because this could be an area where there's a little bit of a disconnect. When we think about branding and pitching versus will I just get them to talk about themselves? A thing that you mentioned a lot, whether it's on the website in the book, it's this idea of you have to be memorable. So how can I walk away being memorable and getting somebody's attention? If all I'm doing is getting them to talk about themselves?
Carole Kirschner: That is such a fine question. You're not spending the whole time getting them to talk about themselves, you're starting that. And when they start talking, and there's something that you relate to, then you should talk about yourself, tell a story about yourself, say, wow, you know, when that happened to me, it was XYZ. You should not I mean, I, this is a pet peeve. People who talk at me, and I never get a word in edgewise. And I'm not saying that you would do that. What I'm saying is that it is important to interject at some point with where it's an a point where interjection makes sense. Something about you. And if they don't ask you about yourself, then I hate them. Because they should ask you about yourself. And yours is not to go on. We just talked about this for five minutes. But it's to say something like Zack, and I just said, That's memorable or colorful. And you can always tell a short, short, short anecdote when somebody is talking about something that happened to them. If it resonates, if it's a good match, that would be my answer to that.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. And I completely agree with that. And what I would layer on top of it, is that if you want the simplest path to be memorable in the context of just a general conversation, which is different than if we're talking resumes, or websites, or formal pitch, those are different contexts. But right now, it's about the early stages of connecting and building relationships. I think asking really good questions that gets people to tell better stories as a way to be memorable in and of itself. I also think there's a really huge key that you alluded to that I want to highlight one more time, listen, just listen to what they're saying. And instead of your responses being well, now that you're done talking, now I can say the thing that I wanted, versus let's expand the conversation based on the direction that you took it rather than where I would like to take it not having an agenda that makes you memorable, just walking, because I'm sure you've been in the position many times where you're at an event, and there's 100 250 500 people, and it's a term that I've coined and might even trademark at the end of it. I call it the sycophant rush, where you stand there and it's just an endless line of people for an hour handing you business cards pitching themselves. And the one person that asks you the really good questions, that's just really nice and makes you feel good about yourself. That's the person you remember.
Carole Kirschner: Yeah. Right. I totally agree. Yes. And, and I would add to that, that it's it's a two prong approach. It's asking the right questions, and somebody this happens a million times I'm sure that your references, you ask somebody to talk about themselves, and they'll go afterwards, that was such an interesting person is ask the right questions and respond, I'm just piggyback on what you said, not with, when they take a breath, then you jump in with what you want to say. But have it be a an organic conversation. And if it is an organic conversation, and you are asking the right questions, as you just said, there will be an opportunity for you to talk about yourself, too, and not in an annoying or jerk like way, just organic.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and what I would add to that, but also go in a slightly different direction, too. And I'd love to hear your thoughts or your strategies on how to do this. The sticking point for so many people with networking, or connecting or building relationships is this concept of value. I've never had somebody where I've said to them, you need to lead with value and provide it first. And they say no, that stupid. The response is that sounds good. I have no idea how to do it. And my when they say I don't know how to provide value, I believe that's part of the conversation or the question process, whether it's over multiple months via email, or in five minutes in a conversation, if like, for example, it let's use the context of the two of us talking. If we compare resumes, what you've done both as an executive and a career coach versus me is just a, you know, a little below the line editor, there's a large difference on paper, right? But if I can start a conversation where you're talking about some of your challenges, and let's say that I don't think it is, but Let's hypothetically say a challenge for you is you really struggle with time management and productivity and staying focused. And that's an area where I can be your mentor. Now we're at the peer level. And if I just ask a few questions, that it's like, oh, this is a way that I could provide you value. Or it's even as simple as like, you know, let's say the word talking to, you know, one of the top writers or directors in the industry, you're like, I just cannot find a decent gardener that I can rely on. My gardener is literally the best gardener in the industry. Let me give you his number boom value, but it requires good conversation, where you're asking questions that lead to value that you can provide, rather than how can you help me? So how would you answer the question, what does it mean to provide value? And how do I do it beyond some of the things we've already discussed?
Carole Kirschner: Right. Well, it all starts with listening to totally agree with what you're saying, asking questions that are meaningful questions. And then when you find out what somebody's doing, think about and I think I use this in the book, it's been a long time since I wrote it. But this is true. I know a boom guy, or gal that could help you with your Indie short. If you and here's one, especially with writers, I'd be well, but could be directors too. I'd be happy to read your script and give feedback if that would be helpful. And I'd love to look at your cut and give you feedback if that's helpful. And, um, I know of a situation I know of an opportunity, I think you'd be right for and a big thing. There's somebody I think you should meet. And that is huge. There's in Malcolm Gladwell book Blink, he said that there's people called connectors, and we all know them. They're the people go, they have parties, they say, Oh, you need to meet my friends, so and so they put people together, and for those peoples mutual benefit. And so just suggesting that they meet somebody that you know, who could help them is is a great way to be of value. And then as I said, just appreciating somebody's work.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I love that you actually brought up that idea of Malcolm Gladwell is the connectors in the book, Blink, because I remember reading that. And my first thought was, well, I'm the most introverted introverts of all introverts that have ever been introverted. And I'm like, There's no way that I could ever be a connector. And I've had multiple students are like, you're like the super connector, because I've talked to so many different people in so many broad ranges of industries. And all I want to do like I just to the air yesterday, I had a conversation with a prospective new student. And all I'm thinking is, oh, you have to meet this one other student like I have hundreds and hundreds of students I'm like, but you have to meet this one person, because you're so similar. And even though you're higher on the food chain than they are Boyer, you peers, and you need to be new best friends, and I see it, I'm gonna make it happen. Love it. I always thought, well, there's no way I could be the connector in that framework, because I just want to be my myself and do my own thing. And I didn't realize how valuable that was until I decided to literally turn it into a business model. So I love that you pointed out that a point an area that somebody can be valuable is just connecting them with somebody else.
Carole Kirschner: Absolutely. You are no introvert. Zack Arnold. I don't believe.
Zack Arnold: Ask my wife that's gonna be another podcast. You talk to my wife and see what her answer is to that one.
Carole Kirschner: Okay, you're an introverted extrovert. You're an extroverted introvert. Yes, there you go. That's what it is. And it's like being able to turn it on when you need to. I mean, things that energize you, you're out there. But then when you're at rest, it's like, oh, I need to just stay by myself.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. It's funny because I'm going to a networking event this evening, where I'm going to be on like a guru panel talking about networking and relationship building and how AI is going to change the industry. I love all the people there, I love the conversations, I'm already dreading the fact that I have to go out somewhere in person, because of how exhausted I'm going to be for like a week afterwards for a two hour event. It's going to cost me a week. So for if we're using the framework of how I expend my energy around other people as introverted or extroverted. I'm 178% introvert 0%. extrovert, but you're right, as far as how I like to express myself. And as I'm sure you've run into this a lot in the speaking community. Oftentimes, the best speakers are very introverted, and that's where they express themselves.
Carole Kirschner: Interesting. Yes. I hadn't thought about it that way. But you're absolutely right. And I just want to go back to you mentioned networking event, and we talked about this earlier, when people come up to me and just talk at me. It's a hard no for me, and don't hand me your business card. I don't think people use business cards.
Zack Arnold: I was gonna say what's a business card? I'll put a link to Wikipedia for what that is for my younger viewers.
Carole Kirschner: Can I put your contact in my phone? No, because I would back when people had business cards, I would take them at events and then put them in the trash, because there's no way that I'm going to. And don't ask me for something. Don't ask me for something like a huge nono is don't? Will you read my script? Will you look at my short or my feature? It's what people don't understand is you're asking a stranger to take two hours out of their life that they could be spending with their family or on a hobby, and or resting to look at your work and give you feedback. It. It's the worst Hollywood etiquette ever? And I'm sure that's true in all fields.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. But it's I mean, if there's any industry that I think probably violates it more than any other, it's probably the entertainment industry. And the one area that I guess I want to drill into or clarify, because I think we're on the same page. But I want to make sure people don't misinterpret when you say don't ask for anything, when it comes to asking for time or review or whatever, are totally on the same page. But I think that the ninja way to build a relationship is I do ask you something. But I'm asking it in the form of you tell me your story about how you did this thing. So an example would be that it wouldn't be Carole, I'm in the process of building a career coaching program. What's your best advice that you could give me maybe read some of my sales emails? Who made Can you give me a review my sales page? It would be when you were making the transition from being an executive to being a career coach? How did you get better at copywriting? Your sales page was great. What What were some of the resources that you use to become a great copywriter? Because I struggle with copy writing? I'm asking you something, but it's in the form of you get to tell me a story.
Carole Kirschner: Perfect. Exactly right. And you're asking me it in a way that I don't feel assaulted by it. And you're asking me to talk about myself.
Zack Arnold: And I also flattered you too. And you see how I fit that in there. You're such a great copywriter.
Carole Kirschner: Of course. which is simply not true. But yes, you make somebody feel good about themselves. You ask them about themselves, everybody, almost everybody will give you. Let me just go back from it. I had a client who came from Chicago, she was in advertising and marketing. She said my goal is to meet 100 people in Hollywood in a year. And by the time we started to work together, she'd had 60 that she'd met mostly through social media and through other people. And she did it by saying, you know, I would love to hear about your journey. Not what can I get about you, but tell me your story. So yes, I think we're on an exact same page.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. And if anybody wants the cheat code to take that to another level, just start a podcast. My best networking cheat code is have your own podcast because you have the best conversations with people and you have their undivided attention. You just have to learn calendar management, because as you know, it's not easy to make it happen consistently. But boy, is that a great way to have amazing conversations and build relationships.
Carole Kirschner: Yeah, and you have a great calendar system, by the way. Really good.
Zack Arnold: Thank you. I appreciate that. Well, that calls. The specific one I use is called the you can book me the popularised one it's called Calendly. There's a lot of features about it that I don't really like. So I found a different one. But by the way, going back to this conversation, if calendar management or scheduling is something you want help with, that's an area where offline, we could chat and I can help make that a little bit easier for you if you wanted to. Thank you. I love that stuff. So you said a buzzword in in the previous part of the conversation that I now want to dig into much much further As you said, the two words that I dread the most in the human language, social media. And this is an area that I know you talk quite a bit about. This is an area that I avoid as much as humanly possible. But I realized is no longer something that we can all just ignore. And it really is a necessary part of the communication process. So far, we've talked mostly about the in person side of things, I think most of what we applied with some slight nuance can go into the cold outreach game. But social media is a different animal. And I know that you talk about branding, and using social media and connecting. So let's start with some of the basics about how would you advise people build relationships with people directly via social media?
Carole Kirschner: Sure, great question. Let me start with TV writers and directors. What you do, everybody is following the showrunners, the top directors, everybody's all over that. Find people at the lower to mid level. And like, what they share, and retweet, you know, repost what they put there. And if and find an episode of their TV writers that you love that had their name on it, and just you can, you can do it in a in a public one, you can do it in a DM and you could just say, I just saw your episode of Cobra Kai. And it was fantastic. Because something specific and keep turning it out because I love it. And that way, you can start to have a relationship with people just again, this in in the virtual space. It's be positive, give them something you're giving them accolades. Everybody loves that. And you're forming a relationship with them, they'll probably respond to if they're super junior level, nobody's reaching out to them, and they're flattered. And you can always say, you know, I'm an aspiring director, producer, also. And after you have done this for three months that you haven't asked for anything, you can always say, I if you ever have 15 minutes on Zoom, I'd love to hear about your journey. Don't ask them to pay for coffee, don't ask them for lunch. They don't know you. They don't have the time they're not going to do it. It shows you don't understand the business, but a zoom coffee for 15 minutes after you've at the risk. And you didn't do this disingenuously but you flattered them, you It's like what you were just saying to me, Zack, you know, in an authentic, genuine way. They'll do that. They'll do that. And I have two mentees and a client who got their representation through social media and cold outreach. So does that answer your question?
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I want to dig deeper. No, I think that's a great place to start. And just as a sidebar, whenever I talk about just how how you can do this, I still believe even with the way that things are drastically changed with communication. Everybody has an email inbox. And eventually I feel you want to get the conversation there if you can, because it can be more genuine and deeper. But it's very hard to reach people via email, especially nowadays, and social media is a great way to start it. But my biggest break in my career was a combination of a cold application to a Craigslist posting that led to Facebook messaging people, right. So it can be done in just about any way possible. But again, the formula was value, but that was kind of the path that led there. But let's go back to this idea of I'm going to reach out to people, people called via DM and social media. I'll have my students say, Well, you have this formula for outreach. Do I just copy paste my email in put it in a social media DM and you're already shaking your head? Like are you crazy? Why Why wouldn't they do that?
Carole Kirschner: Because it's it's a presumptuous, and I don't care. I don't know you. I don't care. And if something is formulaic, I will not respond to it. Well, I won't respond to it. I have people that give me met send me messages on LinkedIn. And say my new film is XYZ and here's the link to it. And I think I don't know you I'm not and, and anything formulaic would not work for me.
Zack Arnold: I don't know why. But LinkedIn is by far the worst offender. I don't know what's different about LinkedIn. But there's so many corporate formulaic template messages from all industries that I can't even use LinkedIn. But it just it seems like that's the acceptable place to use all the corporate speak and corporate templates. I don't know why.
Carole Kirschner: Yeah. But no, that doesn't work.
Zack Arnold: So let's look we can assume whether it's outreach email, whether it's a Twitter DM LinkedIn, if it's a formula or a template, or it's about you, it's useless. But now let's assume you have a really good A unique thought, thoughtful, heartfelt message that you have via email, which I would say similar to us two to three paragraphs, short and concise, but it has all these different things we've talked about. I would say you don't copy that and paste it into social media. Would you agree and why.
Carole Kirschner: Totally agree because an email, you have two to three paragraphs, as we said, and in social media, you have, depending on what it is, you know, three sentences, four sentences, it's, it's not the same. And if you do something that's that long in social media, nobody's gonna, nobody's gonna read it.
Zack Arnold: It's all context. It's all expectations as if I'm an open up Facebook message I want to see like you said, this little blurb, same with text messages, if you if even if you think in the context of I know somebody already, and there isn't a barrier that they're a stranger. Do you write the same way via email that you do via text? No, it's just different ways of communicating. So what I want to know from you, because I'm still workshopping this, because I'm one of those that I really avoid social media other than where I see the its ability where I can bring value to others. Me using it as a tool. I still avoid it as much as I can. But I like its ability to spread a message and you know, help educate people. But I'm still workshopping, what is the perfect formula for a quick DM to somebody that you eventually want to bring the conversation either to email and or zoom. And we started with, you know, really love this thing. And I love by the way, where it's you start lower to the people that their messages in their inboxes aren't full? How do you differentiate yourself from other people that are saying, Oh, my God, the latest episode of Cobra Kai was awesome. Your editing is so well done. I'd love to learn more about your story. How do you differentiate yourself and really walk away having that perfect direct message that gets somebody's attention?
Carole Kirschner: It's all all all all all about being incredibly thoughtful and specific. Specific, not just I loved your editing on the last episode, everybody loved your m&a on last episode, what was it about it? Particularly? And why did it resonate with me? That's the way to do it, you capture my attention in the first sentence, two sentences. And then it's really about it's really about just saying, you know, and I wouldn't do it on the first one, I never would do it on the first one, I would just say, you know, you're, this is why I loved it. This is what it meant to me. And I'm gonna keep watching it, because I think you're awesome. I'm gonna keep following you. Because I think you're awesome. That's it on the first one. That's it, don't say and I want your email, or let me give you my email, don't do that form. Or you can form a relationship on social media. It's a different kind of relationship, but it's still a relationship. And that's what you want to do before you ask for anything.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I have a message that I call the mic drop, which is 100% value and 0% story 0%. Ask. And I generally use it in the context of keeping relationships warm, where if you want to reach out after three months, here's all the value in the world, I will just like you said, I watched this thing. I really love this choice you made here's how it inspired me to write a new pilot script or edit a new scene it whatever it is, right? So no, ask it all says here's the thing later. But I think it's a great way, like you said, to start a brand new conversation via social media, it's not something I would, at least in my opinion, send us the very first outreach email message because you're like, great, but what do you actually want from me, but in social media, I think the mic drop works as a cold message, just like you said.
Carole Kirschner: Yes. And, you know, I'm sure you have your own formula for this. This is my formula. If you reach out to people when something good happens for them, or something good happens for you. And the subject line is either congratulations, or great news. And you keep it so short. And this is why at least in the entertainment industry, you should be reading the trades so that when one of the people that you've had that you've connected within the past, something great happens, you can say. But you might even say quick congratulations. Anybody will open an email that says Quick generally, and especially if it says congratulations. And don't make it five paragraphs, one short paragraph. And you can also say very briefly what you've been doing. And then if something great happens for you, you can say great news, exclamation point. Just wanted to tell you XYZ help it happen. And you know, you helped me get here if it's true and authentic and real and keep it at that. But keep on keep on people's radar, you know, sometimes three times a year if there isn't anything else that's happening also You may talk about this, but I firmly believe in it. If something bad happens for them, they get fired. They their show gets canceled. They something doesn't get greenlit. Everybody in Hollywood at least is so eager to kiss up to you when something happens good for you. But most people just run from failure. So if you say, I just sent this You said you worked on Burn Notice I just sent this to Matt. Next. I said, Matt, no. And my thing was, CBS is stupid S T O P ID because they just canceled True Lies. And I said, Matt, true lives was a fabulous show. It was fun. It was engaging. They, they have their head up, if you're new, you know what, and I know you're gonna go on to do far more better things and not with them, necessarily. That's it. That's it, and he sent back. Thanks. That's all he sent back. That's all I need.
Zack Arnold: Here's how eerie this conversation has become. My follow up to this was going to be I don't know if you're familiar with Matt Nix. But in my conversation with Matt, next, we talk about how if you want to build a relationship, you reach out to somebody when their show has been cancelled. And I was going to follow up with it by saying, I recently just messaged Matt Nix to let him know, I was sorry, Your show was canceled. So it's where you and I are. We're literally copying off of each other. It's kind of sick at this point. But yeah, it's really important that it's not just about congratulations. That's great. That's not a bad thing. But it feels more genuine and vulnerable. When it's like listen, sucked. I watched the whole season. I really enjoyed it. It was great. I'm sorry that you're going through this, even he attested to those are the people that I respond to that I remember that. So shameless plug, I will put a link to the show notes for my two part interview with Matt Nix, who anybody can listen to it is to me is definitely one of the main reasons that I have become who I become and his level of faith in me and my talent. He was the show runner that said, I don't know who this kid is, I don't care that he's never had a credit in TV, he can cut my TV show like that was my overnight success story. Matt Nix is a part of that overnight success story. So he and I have very good relationship. Yeah, he's awesome. Right? So one other question when it relates to social media, then I want to go in a very different direction. We talked about outreach via social media. But I know that an area where a lot of people get very, very, they're fearful, or they have impostor syndrome, or they just don't know how to manage it is, what if I don't have a presence? What if I send a direct message via Twitter or Instagram or Facebook? Or whatever it is, they're gonna see my name and click on it, I don't really have anything. What is it? What do I need to do in that circumstance? Does it matter?
Carole Kirschner: It's a really good question. I'm not sure. It really does. If I encourage people to use social media, as a marketing tool for your business, without being cold and calculating about it, but that is how people are connected. That's the mark the marketplace today, that's where people are. And I don't mean marketplace, like that's where you can get a job. I mean, that's where people are assembling. And it is in your best interest. I think even if it's a small presence, where you just retweet somebody, you repost somebody you like there's their stuff, and that you have a profile, and you have something interesting to say about yourself in describing yourself in that little profile. That's all you need. And you don't have to do it every day, you don't have to do it every week, just do it. Sort of on a regular basis without having to do it all the time. But even if somebody if somebody says something that resonates with me, and I click on their name, and there's nothing there, I don't care, personally, I don't care,
Zack Arnold: Which is why the value is important. Because if you give them an a value, and I think you will, how many followers to this person have that just told me how much they love the work? Nobody cares, right? Because you're again, you're not selling yourself, you're just building that relationship. So I just I wanted to put it out there. There are so many people, there's one person specifically that I know is listening this thinking, yeah, he asked for my sake, I'm not gonna say her name. But at the end of the day, so many people asked me, Do I have to put up all these fake posts and all this stuff in case I want to message him like nobody cares? Just a question that if you want to do that, great, but don't force yourself to do it if it doesn't feel natural and organic? Exactly know, the direction that I want to take us now is an area that I know you're very focused on at this time, as opposed to the book, which has kind of become this evergreen, amazing resource is this idea of getting unstuck when you feel stuck in your career transition. So I want to use the last remaining time we had to talk about that. But I want to start with I think there's an area where on paper, I think you and I differ and I have a feeling if I dig deeper into it. I'm going to find that it's not the case. A fairly common theme that I've seen mentioned, especially in the earlier stages of breaking into your career, and if we look at even your other book, it's this idea that you give it everything you've Got, you pull the all nighter, you work until three or 4am. And I believe that to a certain extent, you have to prove yourself. However, one of my main arguments and the reason I started this entire community is that we have to find a more sustainable way to make a living and not kill ourselves in the process of telling stories for the sake of Hollywood when they're literally killing us. So let's talk a little bit more about some of the strategies that you mentioned. As far as you know, you have to be the one that does that covers until 5am, and shows up at 8am. Because that's an area, something tells me you and I are a lot closer than I think. But on paper, it seems like we have differing viewpoints.
Carole Kirschner: Sure, sure. We do have similar values, I was looking at your website, of course, and looking at the things that are important to you, they're important to me is that you do good work, and you don't kill yourself. Because not worth it. Alan Ball who did six feet under, and American Beauty I had him on, I interviewed him for the showrunner program. And he said, it's just a TV show, it's not worth getting sick over. I stayed up till five in the morning and delivered that coverage at, you know, 7am Because I was just breaking in. And I think you have to go above and beyond when you're just breaking in. But if you're finding that the work you're doing is killing you, I think you have to have a work life balance, and you have to have boundaries. And there are people who will take advantage of you in till the cows come home. And there's toxic people. And I think you have to make some decisions about where your lines are, where your boundaries are. Also, if you're somebody that wastes the very last minute, and I mean, this is like school stuff, right? You wait to the very last minute to turn in your assignment and you're staying up all night, pace yourself, pace yourself, give yourself milestones and then hit them and don't do it all at once. And with my clients who are, you know, writing or directing, I say work for 30 minutes at a time. And it's how I wrote the book, the book was really hard for me to write really hard. And I procrastinated so much. And the only way I broke through my procrastination was writing it in really small baby steps. It's not worth getting sick over. That's my bottom line. So do you think we're on the same page?
Zack Arnold: I think we're way closer. And I want to dig a little bit deeper into it, and then talk more about the program that you're building to help people get unstuck. I often say that if creative minds were good at time management, I would have no business model. Because that's an area where I excel. And I've helped a lot of people that deal with that procrastination or the imposter syndrome that stops them from looking at the blank page or the blank timeline. So I agree that there, there's a certain level of responsibility I think the creative minds have to take when it comes to the long hours, and especially the erosion of work life balance now on the hybrid work from home and like there is no more work week and weekends or the day work day versus the evenings. Like it's all it's so blended together. And the key word that we use in the program all the time is boundaries. So the key for me is that I agree with you that there is a period where you do need to pay your dues, like I was working 1820 hours a day to prove myself. The difference is you have to make sure you're working with people that recognize it and respect you. Yeah, if you're working 20 hours a day, because you're being exploited or taking advantage of that's totally different than you didn't even ask me to put in this time, but I really want to demonstrate the value I can provide to you. So for a short period of time, I'm in the trenches. I'm giving you everything I've got, and they see that they're like, This is amazing. What can I do to help you move forwards? That's different than do it again, do it over and over and over. And if you don't I can replace you tomorrow? Have you seen this stack of resumes on my desk? If this isn't what you give me every day? Well, then you're not putting in enough. That's the problem that I have with the politics of this industry.
Carole Kirschner: Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more in the beginning to break through, in my opinion, you need to do 110 or 112% to set yourself apart from everybody else who just wants to get it. But once you're in it, you're absolutely right, toxic, exploitive people, you have to really ask yourself, Is this worth it? And you know, generally speaking, if you're working 20 hours a day, and you're doing that over and over, it's not worth it. I mean, it's your own decision, but it's not worth it.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, the the other thing that I talk to my students about especially because most of the people that come to me, they're not coming right out of college because when I started I for a period of time, I was talking about the working conditions in the industry and burnouts and everything you tell that to 23 year olds are like, yeah, that's never gonna happen to me. Let me show you. Then they come back to me when they're 27 28 35 are like nevermind. Okay, I get it. Now. How do I make this more sustainable. And what I always tell them is that you train people how it's acceptable to treat you. And if you allow people to walk all over you and you don't set boundaries, then it's partially your responsibility for the fact that they're asking these things of you, because you continually say that it's okay. So again, I think it's about the realm of when is it acceptable to put in this time and this energy versus it's no longer acceptable. So now that we've had this talk all the areas where you talk about this 112%, because everybody else is giving 100%. Now, this makes a lot more sense than I think you and I are in agreement. But I wanted to clarify that. Because the last thing that I want to do with any message or platform is amplify, how you need to give everything to the industry with no respect in return, because that I just adamantly disagree with.
Carole Kirschner: We don't we see eye to eye on that. And I would also say, even if you're transitioning from another business here, you still need to give 112% In the beginning, in the beginning, and I would just piggyback on what you're saying. And say, you can set limits with people, you can set boundaries, and like 90% of them will get it. And there's 10%, that will not they're just horrible people. And there's nothing you can do to change them. So brush up your resume and find someplace else to work.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, find people that are going to value and respect your contribution. Sometimes it's just going to be hard work. I mean, Cobra Kai, hardest show I've ever worked on in my career, there have been late nights, there have been tough note sessions, there have been, you know, screenings where you thought you're going to be able to go home, and you couldn't, because there was something that had to be fixed. But the level of respect. And the value that I get from working with those creators is like we're all just in this together, let's just solve this problem, versus do this thing for me. So I can go and do these other things. And let me know when you're done even if it's an all night note session, right, that that's the difference. And I don't know, I don't know if that's a really good entree into it or not. But I want you to talk more about this specific program that you're putting together specifically to help people get unstuck when they're making career transitions, because boy, are you in my niche right now. So curious, is here what it is that you're working on?
Carole Kirschner: Sure, sure. May I use profanity on your show?
Zack Arnold: Oh, dear Lord, yes, please go ahead.
Carole Kirschner: Okay. My program is called Get the Fuck Unstuck. It's it's a coaching program. It's a four week program. And you know, once a week, it's live, virtually. And what we do is go through, and I'm sure you do the same thing. Because there's nothing new under the sun. It's just how you position it. And what and the flavor you bring to your to yourself is getting crystal clear on what your true goals are. And then finding out what the obstacles are getting really creative about overcoming those obstacles. I call it changing, you're transforming your obstacles into action steps, making the action steps, so manageable. Somebody said this to me, is that you could do this thing, even if something unexpected happened, like you got rear end in a month, you could do it. Of course not if you got injured, getting rear ended, but in and set manageable goals. That's a number one thing that I think is important, doable, manageable, so that you can feel good afterwards because you accomplished it. Then we talk about support and accountability really essential to because we all have great ideas. Yes, yes, we're gonna do this thing and we're on the path. And then you lose traction. And if you have ongoing accountability, then you stay connected and motivated all the time. And that's what I talked about. That's what we work on. It's highly interactive. There's lots of exercises. There's lots of homework. There's lots of time for questions, and getting clarity on what you're doing and getting feedback. And that's the class how do you get the fuck unstuck?
Zack Arnold: Oh my god, I love it. And this, the tables have now turned 180 degrees. Because we went from the fear of I've plagiarized you to now clearly you're plagiarizing and stealing from me. Because you, Debby right now my podcast producer who's listening behind the scenes, she's got to be thinking, you got to be kidding me right now. Because you just described our focus yourself program, which is the same thing you talked about. It's like this small group live environment. And it's going through and setting goals, identifying the obstacles that are stopping you, focusing on the very clear things that you need to do next break breaking it down into very manageable steps, taking action, and then doing a regular review and reflection so you can iterate learn from your failures and keep moving forward. I'm so you're when you were describing this and like you, you gotta be kidding me like this is downright eerie. I don't know what's in your water, but it's clearly the same water supply that I have, I am thoroughly convinced you and I need to have a much deeper dive mastermind to compare notes because I think that there's a lot of areas where we could benefit each other's audiences. But the one thing I want to dig into a little bit deeper is this idea of goals. Because what I have found, and I'm sure you found this as well, is that when it comes back to this idea of networking, and outreach and building relationships, people always want to know, what are the best iPad icebreakers and networking events? Or what's a great subject line for my email? Or who am I supposed to be connecting with, and what I find, especially when I work with beginners, none of that's helpful because they have no idea what they want to do with their life. Right. And they have to learn goal setting, which goes back to what we said before, nobody teaches us this, we're just supposed to know it. And the area that I want to dig in deeper, is I feel like people get in trouble when they misinterpret, you need to set manageable goals. Where a lot of people hear is oh, I need to I need to keep it simple and smart. They need to be smart goals. And they have to be realistic. and I both agree and disagree with that. So I'm gonna expand a little and I want to see what your thoughts are. Sure, I think that you should have a vision that is so ridiculously outlandish and stupid that people laugh out loud. I think the goals that you set to achieve that vision should be so small and manageable, that like you said, it doesn't matter what's going on in your life, you can get them done, an example would be and I've used this as a teaching tool in my community for years, but five and a half years ago, vastly out of shape horribly burned out not doing well mentally, physically or otherwise. And I woke up and said, I'm going to become an American Ninja Warrior. That is an outlandish ly stupid vision. But the goals were, let's see if we can lose five pounds in three months. Let's see if we can, you know gain three pounds of strength on the grip like all these little tiny nuances. But the the fear that I have is when people hear the word realistic or manageable. What they do is they limit themselves and I do not want people to limit themselves. So I'm curious, what is your goal setting process for your writers and your other students?
Carole Kirschner: Right. Well, first, I have them do an exercise, which is exactly what you're saying we are so on the same page is this is scary. It really is. I know. I know. I know. I think it's so interesting. And there's room for both of us. There's totally room for there's room for everybody.
Zack Arnold: The rising tide lifts all the boats. That's how I approach it. There is no competition. We're all here to help each other. So yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Carole Kirschner: So what I asked people is, what would you do? If you had all the resources you need, and you couldn't fail? That's where people's true desires come out. They get past their fears. And those are the goals. I totally agree with you. You come up with something you said outlandish and people will laugh at you. That's your that's how you do I mean, that's your style. Right? And mine is, what is it that you would love to do that you would do if you couldn't fail? And what are you? What are you great at? What are you passionate about? What would you do if nobody said you if nobody paid you to do it, but you love it so much. And then we work backwards from there. So the it's not setting realistic goals for your top priority goal. It's how do you get there and setting setting manageable goals for getting to that dream? So we're saying exactly the same thing, just with different terminology?
Zack Arnold: Yeah, so again, I'm just gonna double, triple and quadruple down on the fact that I'm pretty sure you and I are gonna have to do one of our own zoom calls, coffee conversations, lunches, whatever it looks like, because I'm really intrigued by all the things that you're doing. And I think there's a lot of overlap.
Carole Kirschner: And there is.
Zack Arnold: But what I'm curious about is just to make sure that I can leave somebody that's listening, I certainly don't have the audience of writers that you do. But I have some writers that come to me specifically that are interested in career transitions and networking and whatnot, a whole litany of other crafts, mostly editor's composers, lots of below the line. But going on your site, you have so many great free resources, I wouldn't even know where to start to direct them. But I know as somebody that's entrepreneurial minded, there's probably an area you want to direct their focus. So if somebody wanted to start working with you just as a free resource, where do we want to direct them?
Carole Kirschner: You want to go to carolekirschner.com, which is C A R O L E, this must be somewhere on your site.
Zack Arnold: We'll have it in the show notes. Don't worry about it.
Carole Kirschner: Yeah dotcom. If you sign up for my mailing list, and I promise I don't sell it to anybody, nothing else. You'll start to get emails with the information about what's happening and going on. Also, I have a free ebook called telling your story in 60 seconds. That's your personal logline. I have because I teach another course on how you pitch, a TV show that sells the ultimate guide to pitching a TV show that sells, I just put out the 30 day goal setting formula for screenwriters who want to get shit done. And so it, it encompasses all of that. And if you go to the website, you can find it.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I love it, I'm going to make sure that we have links to all of that and more and we can send people to your site to your resources. Because again, I believe that the rising tide lifts all boats. So like the place I want to leave us is essentially the most horrible, common boring question that anybody asks. But given we've been talking about it for 90 minutes, I want to end where most people start. If you had one piece of advice, you could give in 90 seconds or less to somebody that wants the best advice about how to break into the industry. How do you distill everything down to this is where to focus first.
Carole Kirschner: Really good question. And we're gonna have the same answer, Zack, it's work on your craft, and see how you can help people. If if, if you do those two things, make yourself memorable. And see how you're going to help see how you can make somebody's life easier. And it it will be with your craft, it will be with what you have to offer. And, you know, be curious, it's really about being curious, and learning how to improve your craft. Right? I'm sure you give an answer very similar to that.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, it's it's not quite word for word, but structurally framework wise. It's very, very close. Yeah. So yeah, I'm glad that the universe brought us together in a very circuitous way. And that I got, quote, unquote, lucky that I got the opportunity to have you here. I can't thank you enough. I'm going to make sure to send everybody that's listening or reading the newsletter, to your resources and to your site, and really meaningful to me that you took the time out of your very busy day and practice and life to be here and share your story. So thank you so much.
This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared by Debby Germino and published by Glen McNiel.
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