Niceole Levy is a television producer, television and feature writer, and author of The Writers’ Room Survival Guide. Niceole has written for shows such as Ironside, Shades of Blue, Cloak and Dagger, S.W.A.T. and The Recruit, just to name a small few. Though we mostly talked about her book today, our conversation unveils ideas and strategies that go beyond the world of writing.
Niceole starts by sharing the amazing story of how she forged her non-traditional path to being a writer in Hollywood after beginning as a police dispatcher and baker among many other seemingly unrelated jobs to the industry. But despite her lack of industry experience, Niceole shares with us today the exact ways she was able to reframe her life experiences as relatable skills to the job she was seeking (and even shares her checklist you can use if you’re looking for your own opportunity to break in).
Our conversation is as non-traditional as Niceole’s pathway to Hollywood, but I have no doubt you’ll receive even more advice on breaking into the industry (or further climbing your current ladder) because of it. You’ll learn about how and when to place boundaries, how to use Act Structures to succeed in interviews, the unspoken rules of the writing room, and even what to ask yourself if you’re on the verge of giving up. If you find yourself struggling to achieve your break into whatever industry you’re seeking, this episode is for you.
After growing up near China Lake Naval Weapons Center in the middle of the Mojave Desert, Niceole Levy escaped to the bright lights of Los Angeles. While studying acting at the American Academy of Dramatic Arts, she realized her true love was writing stories, not playing them out. She worked as a police dispatcher to pay her way through USC undergrad and then completed the Master of Professional Writing program, also at USC. An alum of the CBS Writers Mentoring Program, NBC’s Writers on the Verge, and the WGAW Showrunner Training Program, Niceole has written on Ironside, Allegiance, The Mysteries of Laura, Shades of Blue, Cloak & Dagger, Fate: the Winx Saga, S.W.A.T, and The Recruit. She also co-wrote a feature, The Banker, with former Allegiance showrunner and director George Nolfi. She is now writing Spark, a film inspired by the life of Claudette Colvin. Niceole is currently a co-executive producer on Empire of Mali, which will air on Netflix, and has several TV and feature projects in development. Her first book, The Writers’ Room Survival Guide, was released in October of 2022.
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Zack Arnold: I'm here today with Niceole Levy, who is a TV writer and producer. She's a feature writer, she's author of The Writers' Room Survival Guide, which we're going to do a super deep dive into today. By the way, it's also available in audiobook format. And Niceole, you've written for shows such as Ironside, Shades of Blue, Cloak and Dagger, of which we have several mutual colleagues in common, SWAT, also mutual colleagues in common and The Recruit for Netflix, just to name a small few. But as I mentioned a little bit before we got started, I didn't realize in researching this book and prepping for this interview, that I had met a fellow kindred spirit in the industry, somebody else that actually believes there's value in living your life outside of the office, and it actually makes you better at what you do. So that is one thing that you and I are going to talk a lot about today. But Niceole, seriously, it's very much a pleasure to have you here. And I appreciate you taking the time.
Niceole Levy: Thank you so much that it's it's great to be here. And yes. And I will say I had to learn that point of view, I was definitely a recovering workaholic right here totally. Yes, absolutely. Like there should be a 12 step program for all of us
Zack Arnold: Very much so yeah, it's a challenge when both you absolutely love the creative work that you do. And it's a part of who you are, which can be very dangerous. But on top of it, the exploitive factor of the powers that be knowing that you love what you do, and using it to your advantage. It's it's a really slippery slope, that you can slide down very, very quickly. And I'm very much a self proclaimed recovering workaholic, and I talk about work life balance and the importance of stepping outside of the office and having other interests. And that actually makes you a better writer, or a better editor or a better composer. But just the conditioning of this industry is that you're of no value to me, unless you're attached to your keyboard and your workstation. And I talked about that incessantly in the world of post production, I haven't talked about it a lot in the world of writing. So that's one of the reasons I'm excited, have your perspective. We're gonna get there eventually. But what I where I do want to start is in your book, you mentioned this idea of this isn't a book that tells you how to break into the industry, you have this one great chapter that's like, here's what you need to know. All right, you're in the writers room, here's a million and a half things that are going to happen. And for anybody that gets this either working to get into a writers room, or you're there, this is one of those books that just sits next to your desk with dog ears and posts. And you're thinking, Oh, I'm never going to need chapter four. Oh, crap, this thing just happened that you said was going to happen. Chapter Four, what do I do, Niceole? Right. So what I don't want to do is say, tell us how do you break into the world of being a writer? And how does the writers want work? Because your book answers all that. But here's what does fascinate me, you went a much more non traditional path to get where you were in a writers room. And the non traditional path is the one that really interests me, specifically, those that don't just right after college, start at the bottom and your writers PA or postproduction PA and then you kind of climb the ladder. It's not to say that that isn't difficult, but it's fairly clear how that works. But there are other non traditional paths, and you are the quintessential, I did everything my own way, my own unique version of it. So before we get started, I just want to learn more about your path and how you ended up in the writers room. Because man, is it fascinating?
Niceole Levy: No, and look, I mean, I would have loved if it had been more simple. And if it had been, you know, a streamlined version, but that just wasn't in the cards for me. And, you know, I originally started out acting, I had just thought acting was the most glamorous, most wonderful thing because I'd never occurred to me, someone wrote the things that we were all so enamored of. And I came to LA to study acting. And I very quickly realized that I was a writer who could act, not an actress who could write, and people had been trying to tell me that for years, but of course I was in that defiant like, I know who I am. Nobody's going to tell me what to do. And then I was like, Oh, I do want to write stories more than I want to act them out. And you know, so I did stuff that seemed logical, I went to USC, but I couldn't get into film school and I didn't have time to do the whole keep applying keep applying like I met someone who had applied six times to send them to school and was just still like treading water taking other classes at USC, I was like, my parents are not rich, I can't do that. And, you know, so I was an English major. And then I got a master's degree in professional writing. So which was great because I paid my bills that way for a decade. But it was a lot of hoping and trying and beating my head against walls and you know, doing other jobs that thankfully, my degree helped me get I was a magazine editor, and I did closed captioning for television and I was the master of the large ensemble drama. So like Grey's Anatomy, private practice, brothers and sisters. stirs. Like all those ABC shows with 14 people in the main cast. It was my job to caption and, you know, I had worked my way through college being a police dispatcher. So I had like, interesting, an interesting hook. But I just couldn't find my way through the door. And I finally, you know, I had applied to the fellowships before. I feel like we all get on the loop of that apply to the, you know, CBS fellowship, and the NBC fellowship and the Disney fellowship and all those things. And I was really like, I just don't think I can do this anymore. I really don't know that I can keep doing it. And I started a business because I thought, well, if you're not going to make it as a writer, what are you going to do? So I became a professional baker. And I took orders online, and I shipped cookies all over the country. And, and then I had a terrible day at my day job. And I came home, and I cried myself to sleep. And I thought, well, you're gonna write anyway. So maybe keep trying to get paid for it. And so I decided to apply to the fellowships one last time. And I got into the CBS writers mentoring program, and that it wasn't like it was overnight, but that's what opened the door. So I did that program. I didn't get it wrapped or staffed out of it, but I got into the NBC program. And then I got ripped from that. And I met my manager through the CVS program, but we didn't start officially working together to later and, and then it was just sort of this slow, go out and meet everyone and convince everyone that I deserve to be in the room. And thankfully, my second year out for staffing Kansans, l believed me and gave me a job.
Zack Arnold: There's so many things that I love about this story. And I could probably do three separate 90 minute interviews about little tiny portions of it, I'll do my best to maintain this as 190 minute interview. But I'm sure that this is something you've experienced before, both from people talking to you about your story. But hearing other people tell there's, it's very easy to listen to your story as a writer want to be and get discouraged. Well, I'm not going to be a police dispatcher. And I'm not going to start my own business. And I'm not going to do all this and that. And the other thing, like everybody's path is so unique. But what I'm trying to do is demystify everybody's quote unquote, unique path to kind of the fundamental steps. And yours was the non traditional path. But I feel even with a non traditional path, there are a whole lot of things that are consistent amongst the various stories. And the first one that I think is the most consistent and is a theme you talk about in your book is just keep going. Right? You just keep moving forwards. Because if that's what you're going to do anyways, just keep doing it, you're going to be spending your time being alive, why not do it moving towards something, even if you feel like it's not happening?
Niceole Levy: It's absolutely like, and it's shocking to me how many people want to become professional writers. And don't write enough. And I am not a believer in that you must write everyday school, I have friends who swear by it. There are days I just cannot sit in front of a computer, I just can't. And so I take a walk and sure, like story stuffs in my brain, but I'm not. Right. Right, like traditional writing, but I'm working. And but at the very least at the bare minimum, you should be writing if you're trying to break into this business to skripsi you bare minimum you should have two hour long scripts every year. And I would highly recommend if you are still trying to break in that every so often one of those scripts is still a spec episode of an existing television show. Because what has been astonishing to me in recent in like the last two years, is how many emerging writers are learning to write TV from streaming, and therefore don't understand act structure. And even if you're writing a streaming show act structure keeps you from bottlenecking. And from feeling like nothing happens, and then everything happens. And so act structure is such a critical thing to understand. And so many people are losing it, I think is a skill while they're trying to break into the business.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I agree with that. And I want to get in a little bit deeper into that because I know story structures an important thing too. And I don't want to talk shop so much just story structure as a writer, but how we apply our understanding of story structure and act breaks to our own story in our own careers. That's where I really am interested. But where I want to go next is like you said, you answer the question very quickly in chapter one, how to somebody break it? I think people are asking the wrong question. So if I were in a position of I wanted to break into a writer's and what I would ask you is what It defines me as being prepared. If I need a checklist, what are all the things that it's I shouldn't even bother meeting with people submitting myself for shows until I've met these criteria, I want to know how to earn it, then I'm going to take the time to earn it with the time and the actions that I can control, then I'm waiting for opportunity, hard work, preparation meets opportunity, and I get lucky. So I helped me put together my checklist of I want to earn my way to the writers are what's on that checklist where I shouldn't even bother trying to break in until I've done these things.
Niceole Levy: So I would say first and foremost, it's watch TV. It's stunning how many TV writers think of it as like a cool thing that they don't really watch TV, that is your schoolwork. That is your your free PhD, and how to write television, you watch shows that you love you watch episodes of shows that you think you would never want to work on. You know, it's it's astonishing like that people, their biases come in, and they're like, well, that's a CBS procedural, I would never watch that. Maybe not, but you might get offered a job on it. So you should understand how they work. Because believe me, you can pay a lot of debt down with a CBS procedural job. So like, there's reasons to expand your horizons and watch things and if you have a show you love, right? Study it, figure out how they structure the show, figure out like, what what was your favorite moment in the season? And did it build? Or was it just a surprise, and like, just really use that as a tool to teach yourself? So I would say that's the first thing. And the second thing is be writing be writing your your first several scripts are not going to be great. I mean, they just aren't none of us unless you are, I can't even think of who I would say it is like, if you are David Milch. And you're just born brilliant. And your first script is genius, then I guess okay, but like most of us, we gotta work our muscles to build up the strength to do it. So it's writing. And it's just, it's always been working, and then be brave enough to let other people read your work. writers get so precious about their material. And I don't want someone to not like it, well, you're going to being a professional writer is nothing but taking notes. It is nothing. And it's not there not notes you can ignore. Because they're coming from your producer, or from number one on the call sheet or from your studio or your network. So you're going to have to deal with them. So get good at it. Now, give your work to other writers that you respect to friends who love TV, even if they're not in a business, I get some of my best notes from my best friend who is not in the business at all. But can say this was confusing to me. And I'm like, if it's confusing to you, it'll be confusing to the studio, let me go fix it. So a lot of it's those are three of the most important things. It's educating yourself by watching TV. And I would say also by reading scripts, right? If you can find scripts, reading them sometimes is also as valuable as watching, if not more. So. Be writing and be brave enough to get notes and then learn how you process notes. Figure out, do you get defensive right away, I used to be terrible at taking notes terrible. And I had to learn how to take the note and not look for a solution right away. And just be like, let me sit with it and see if I can figure out the solution. So you need to learn how you handle those things. Figure out how fast you can write, right? Give yourself a test, tell yourself that you have to write an episode of your favorite show in five days. Because guess what, that's the future you're signing up for. And then really challenge yourself and write an episode in three days, because that happens too. You know, it's sort of it's building your muscles so that when someone comes in and says, are you ready? Like you're standing strong on both your feet and you're like, I am ready. I know I There are lots of things I don't know, in the road ahead of me, but I am ready for this opportunity.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and that's one of the things that I advise with the students in my coaching program all the time is that if you're waiting, waiting to be ready, never going to happen. You need to get to the point where you're ready to not be prepared. And what I mean by that is you know enough to not fail your first couple of weeks, you know just enough to be in the right place and ask a million and a half questions to get better. But there's always some prerequisite of like if somebody were to come into the world of editing scripted TV, which is my world, they don't know how to use avid it's like you're setting yourself up for failure and the entire team up perfect. So you're on day one, as opposed to, I don't know everything about how to manage an act break and the nuances of performance. And there are certain things that I want you to come in having as a skill. But skills can be taught, and I'm sure it's the same in the writers room. But there's just kind of this borderline like you have to be at this point. So you know, that you're not setting yourself up and everybody else for failure. So if I wanted to get your consideration to be in a writers room on a show that you're working on, what's kind of the minimum amount of my portfolio the you're gonna want me to have already completed? Before, it's time to think, Alright, it's the it's worth meeting with them. You'd said, like two scripts a year, maybe a spec script, but kind of what's your shortlist of your portfolio probably needs this before, it's time to have a meeting for the writers room.
Niceole Levy: You know, that one's harder, because it does vary by person. I mean, I have a friend who wrote one spec and got a job, but had a background in acting and storytelling, so wasn't coming in cold, right, like, and had some natural talent. And then I have friends who wrote, you know, 10 samples before they ever got represented. So it varies by user. But what I would say is what I always tell my mentees when they're thinking about the next thing they're going to write is or what they're going to submit for a job, even if this was the only script in the world someone was going to read? Does it tell me who you are as a writer? And by that? I mean, does it tell me you have interesting ideas? Does it tell me that you know how to navigate an act out? Even if there's no act outs written in your script? I'll know that you had it on though, I'll know. Does it tell me that you know how to build character relationships, and that you know how to have fun with your dialogue? And that you have a point of view, right? That's really what the samples job is. And if you're like, Well, I mean, I think it's pretty good, that's not good enough, it has to be, I am willing to bet that I will get a job based on this piece of writing. And then that's the piece of writing you put out to the world. Because if you don't believe in it that much, what will happen sometimes is you go into meetings, right? And someone will be like, you know, oh my gosh, like I thought your sample was really interesting, I was really surprised that you chose to kill that character at the end of that five instead of waiting for the end of the pilot. And that has happened to me. And I was like, right, because if nothing had happened to anyone in this family, by the end of Act five, everyone would have known it was coming. So I did it at the end of Act five to cheat your expectations, and then was able to roll out exactly what's gonna come next for all of our characters and acts sets. And people were like, good answer, right? So you have to be able to defend it, if someone's going to ask you a question like that. And not in a defensive way in this is why I made that creative choice. So I think it's really like, Do you have a sample that does that. And if you do, then that's the sample you want your rep to send to my desk. And I will tell you very honestly, if, if someone is coming in at as a first timer, first time staff writer, and they are not a writer that I've mentored, someone who's worked for me as an assistant, or someone who's been referred to me by one of my very trusted friends, I am going to ask if they have a spec, because that is the job you're actually applying for. You are applying to come in and write spec episodes of my television show. And I want to know that you know the bare minimum of that job, which is how to mimic my voice how to mimic a showrunners voice and how to follow the format of the show. Because there's nothing worse than the staff writer who comes in and is like, I'm going to show everyone how to really write this show. And you're like, oh, no, that's never good. That's never good. You're coming in to learn how to write this show. You do all your fancy gimmicky stuff and your pilots. But here you're writing this show.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, you and I the level of kindred spirit. And this is almost off the charts right now, because I talk about this all the time. Were working in television, I've seen it over and over, just as I'm sure you as you have in the writers room, where if you're on an established show, you get a new editor in the rotation. Like, I'm going to show them how they should really cut this show. I'm going to show them what this could be. I also see it with visiting directors all the time. And I've gotten in trouble as an editor more than once we're visiting directors come in, and I have my editors cut of a show the visiting director completely changes it and it's like no, no, I know the show usually does this let's do this instead. And the day one a producer's cut, I get that very concerned conversation like so what's going on with your episode? Everybody calm down and just watch my editors cut. They're like Oh, Okay, everything's fine. But there always are those creatives, whether it's the director, whether it's the writer, whether it's the editor, I'm going to show them what their show should be for the love of all that is holy, don't do that it is your job to achieve somebody else's vision, not your own.
Niceole Levy: Absolutely. There's nothing more frustrating at any of those stages. You're correct. If it's writer, director, editor, and, you know, I've had showrunners, who, like, there's indications already early on in the shooting, and so they will literally be like, the Director's Cut gets turned in, and then it's literally like, Craig, can you load your editors cut to you, so that we know to watch them both? Because it's going to that it's going to be that sort of thing? So I think that, you know, TV, I say this in the book a lot. TV is a team sport. And, yes, it might be your big idea that got the show on the air, right? Because there are writers who've never stopped who are selling shows. And so you might be the person who came up with the big idea. But it took 200 people to execute that vision. And everybody matters, and everybody counts. And everybody has to work together. Because the second someone like, right, like, you know, I want to do it my way 199 People are like so yeah, the working well with others. And, you know, knowing when to speak up and knowing when to sit back and just let the show be the show.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. Now there was something that you said earlier, that kind of concerned me, you said, you can have your rep send your stuff. I don't have a rep. What What am I going to do? Is it absolutely necessary that I have a manager representation, like I hear all kinds of different stories, so am I dead in the water, if I didn't have representation,
Niceole Levy: It's much harder. If you don't have representation, definitely. Because that is the general pipeline, right is like if my show gets greenlit, my manager, my agent and all the people who worked with them are going to send me a giant pile of scripts for all the different levels of things I'm staffing, the thing that can help you with that is, even if you're not repped, but you're working as a PA, or a writer's assistant, or, you know, support staff in some other capacity, if you're working in post, you know, and you got an assistant job and post, but you're also trying to write, if you build relationships with the people on the show, then those opportunities will still come to you. I am a firm believer in the fact that like, part of my job, as a writer on a staff is to get to know the support staff and get to know what they want to do. And do they have a script that they want me to read? And are they willing to take notes? Or do they want me to just see what you know what their writing is? Like, have that conversation. And as you have time, read people and participate in getting their knowledge, right? And I was on a show where our post Pa was like, Hey, can I can I get some advice from you about writing? And I was like, Absolutely. Let's go have coffee and talk about writing. And my advice had to be calm down. Like, I know that you're frustrated, it hasn't happened yet. Here's all the things that you need to be doing. And a few years later that pa became a Disney fellow and is off to the races, right? So if you're willing, if you build relationships with people, and you talk to people, they'll reach you in those circumstances. The other way that that can happen for you is if you have friends who are connected to people, right? So if you're building your network of writers, and you're like, I you know that I don't ask you for favors, but I know you're friends with Niceole Levy. And I heard that she's staffing a show, would you be willing to just ask if she'd read a submission? That's a big ask. So you better be damn confident of that script that you're asking your friend to put their neck on the line for? Because right, it's only going to happen once. Like, if one of my very good friends is like, hey, like I've been mentoring this writer, they're not wrapped, but they're amazing. Well, you read them, and I read them. And I think they're not amazing. I'm gonna be like, okay, and the next time I'm going to think twice about it. So but that is part of why as much as we all hate the word networking, that why it's important, because this relationship is so much about, oh, I don't know, Niceole, but my friend is friends with her assistant, or you know, whatever in building those bridges so that someone will make a call or write an email for you.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, when it comes to the non traditional path. You and I are definitely talking from the same playbook that if you're not going to, you know, graduate from college and go the traditional route starting as the PA and whatnot, that the most important thing that you need to surround yourself with are advocates. You need people that are doing now what you want to be doing next and they become your advocates to facilitate these introductions because this Some amazing writer that sends you a cold outreach email and says I hear your staffing Would you read my submission, click delete you don't have time for that doesn't mean you're not an amazing person. You don't want to mentor people, you've got 24 hours in a day, just like I've got 24 hours in the day, there's only so many people you can help. But if they are going through somebody that you absolutely trust, you're like, alright, I'll give him a shot. And people, they, they're always thinking to themselves, I have to get in front of the gatekeepers, I need to get in front of the showrunners, and the executive producers and the people that read my stuff. So I can say, I'm amazing pay attention to me. They forget to focus on building their network of mentors and advocates. And that's the part that I specialize in, is how do you build that relationship? Get yourself mentors, surround yourself with a peer group, so that you find out about these opportunities, and you get the insight or track? You're like, that's all that it took? It's like, well, yeah, it's simpler than you think. But most people aren't willing to put in the effort. Because that's a long game of chess, that's not a quick game of checkers. That's not a lottery ticket. Right? That takes time.
Niceole Levy: That takes time and will and I'll say another thing that takes time, but you've already been living it. So why not take advantage of it is if there is something in your life that gives you valuable life experience? Is there a way for you to use that to help you get a consult on a show? That's like looking for if you've got medical training, if you've been in the military, if you were a police officer, if you you know, were any, anything that TV shows get written about, right? If you have a way to start to build out and be like, Hey, if you guys ever have questions, I know that you're an assistant on, you know, Niceole's medical show. If you guys ever have questions, I would be happy to help. And you know, you're volunteering your time. And then maybe that's a paid consultancy. And then maybe you're in the room and the showrunner likes you. And then maybe that's an opportunity. It's not like it happens all the time. But it does happen. For sure. I mean, I, one of my very best friends in this business, was a forensic psychologist, and was asked to consult on a TV show that dealt with her specialty, and became a TV writer. Off of that right now had talent had been writing had always wanted to be a writer, but didn't see how that was going to be their life. But then the door opened. So there's ways to take your life experience, and use that to try to help open your doors as well.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I agree with that wholeheartedly. It's something that I teach my students all the time, it's being able to reframe your past experiences, transferable skills, because as you know, the the industry is so specific about you must have these credits and this experience are not going to take a chance unless you've done all these things. But they devalue all of our other life experiences and skills. And especially as a writer, you kind of have to live a little bit of life to be a great writer. And thinking, well, it's just all about, I have to write the spec scripts, and I have to get the master's degree that I have to get in the writers room and do this and that, well, you're missing this big gap of actually living life. So you can bring that realism and that nuance and that soul to your writing. So I hear all the time, both with writers, even with editors, where they've done something else with their life, whether it's just editing a different genre, or a totally different career. Well, I've wasted all this time, and I've been on the wrong path. And I tell them, you just need to reframe your experience, because there are things that are so valuable and unique to the right people, but you're not sharing and telling that story.
Niceole Levy: Yes, absolutely. Like I will say, you know, there was an obvious benefit to my background as a police dispatcher right when procedurals came knocking, they were like person who's really done this job. And those real police officers. Excellent. And that was great. But the other thing it gave me and and I can't tell you how invaluable it's been is, I have literally been in a situation where the words coming out of my mouth can mean the difference between someone living or dying. So obviously, I'm fairly stressed out over whether this stunt is going to work while I'm on set. But I'm going to make sure nobody's going to die because I'm going to follow all the rules. And everybody take a breath. Like, it's not a shoot out with a bad guy in the middle of the street. Like we have control of the situation. And like when you're in the writers room, and you know, number one on the call sheet is suddenly sick and out for three days. And it's like panic. I'm like, you guys, I know it sucks. I know it's a lot of money and we have to figure out how to fix this. But nobody's going to die. And like being able to be that person in those situations like my showrunners have always been so grateful. Because I'm like, y'all this has not reached freakout status for me I don't nobody's shooting again near me so I'm not for you now.
Zack Arnold: And where I want to take this next is coming back to something we mentioned before that is such an integral part of your book is is the idea of under You're standing at structures. And you said something that I think is really important even for editors, but especially for writers, I've worked in both broadcast TV, I've worked in cable, I've worked in premium streaming. And I've seen the differences between this episode has to be 42 minutes and 11 seconds, and it has to be 6x. And you have all the breaks. And it's, it's basically paint by numbers, there's clearly a lot more nuanced. But as far as structure is concerned, paint by numbers, then in the streaming world, you can do whatever you want all your episodes, 27 minutes longer than the previous, okay, as long as it's good. But one of the points that you bring up that I want to talk a little bit about as far as a writer, but I think it applies so much more to understanding our own stories, is understanding act structure and act breaks. Because if you're taking the non traditional path, you have to be able to tell really good stories about the act breaks in your own life.
Niceole Levy: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think you know, like, it's, uh, you know, there's so much television that is not broadcast, that is not basic cable that doesn't have this commercial element. Thus far now that everybody on the streaming platforms has their ad based here, right?
Zack Arnold: It's all changing. And it's going back to the
Niceole Levy: It's all going back to that. And I'm like, knowing where commercial goes is a valuable skill. I had a friend who was imposed on a show that it aired on one version of the platform with no ads, and then on another one with the ads and was like, where did the ads go? And the writers didn't know because they didn't do it, you know, right. So if if in your mind, you're thinking about the structure of it, and like, if a break was going to come, where would it go? It allows you to do this thing. In storytelling, again, as I mentioned before, of like, you're doing a build, and then you reach a natural, like, flow, you know, Kung Fu, okay, we can exhale, and then we're building again. And then we exhale a little bit. And like, it's the way people really participate in stories, right? And I is a person who's watched way too much television and my wife, if I'm watching the show, and I'm just like, is anything ever gonna happen? Like, I just am going to to now because it's like, you're hoping that I'm interested enough to wait until minute 51 When the big surprise thing is gonna happen. But you got to keep me interested all along the way. And I think the way that that can reflect itself, right, is, when you're trying to break into this business. Carole Kirschner, who was one of my mentors, wrote this book called The Hollywood Game Plan, and it talks about learning to tell your story, right. And if you think about, like, we all can tell our cradle to grave story, right? Like I was born here, and I you know, all these things happen to me. But you have to learn how to tell like that elevator pitch version of your story for when you go on meetings, and you're gonna go, you know, have conversations with people. And so if you think about, what's the teaser of your story, what makes people want to hear more about you. So like, whenever, like, I'm send my bio out to people. Before I can even start talking about myself. It's either Oh, my God, you were a police dispatcher. That's so cool. So I just jump in there. And I can talk about that part of my life. Or like I was on a general meeting the other day, and the person knew the small town that I was born in. Like, that never happens. And it was like, we had a 10 minute conversation about this little town. Right? So knowing your story is going to give you the flexibility a of those spontaneous conversations where if someone just jumps in, but it also if you come into a general and someone's just like, so tell me about yourself? And it's like, okay, how do you do that? That's not well, you know, I was born in this thing, and I live there. So I usually am like, well, you know, I grew up in the middle of nowhere, where there was nothing to do but watch television. What happens when all you do is watch television, right? And I can sort of start building my narrative from that. So you're, you're sort of setting that up, and then you think about your ACT break is your turning point, right? Like, what's the what's the moment that you were like, and then I went to college, and I was studying to be a doctor. And I was like, Oh, this is terrible. I don't want to be a doctor. What do I do now? Act, right? And then you transition into, okay, here's what I did. And like you're doing your thing. And so you're building and then you're building to the idea of, and this is what I see for my future. So you're teasing at the end, right is I want to staff I want to learn the ins and outs of making television. I want to produce episodes, and then hopefully I'll get to be a showrunner and create my own show. And you're like confidently saying like I am in this for the long haul. And something like that. Like I feel like that would get my attention at a meeting right somebody like when I met my manager, the first Tonight we met he was like, so like, where do you see yourself and, you know, however many years, he said, and I was like, I'm gonna write a pilot, and I'm gonna send it to you, and you're gonna walk into your office, your managers office, because he's the owner of the company. And I was like, and you guys are going to be like, let's call one of our fancy show runners to run this show, because Niceole just killed this pilot. Now, thankfully, I'm past the point where I need someone else to run the show for me, but like that, and I believed that absolutely like that, I was going to write a pilot that they would love that much. And they would pick up and make that call. And he was like, All right, and like, we just had a relationship from then on out, right, because I was authentically myself. And, and confidence is never bad. You don't want to be arrogant, but confidence is like, people can tell people can tell when you're scared, and you're desperate. And you're like, if I don't get this job, I'm gonna quit the business. And that like it radiates off of you. So be confident that you've earned the right to be in this meeting, and to get a shot at this job. And yes, you're gonna be terrified of screwing up when you get the job. But you've earned the right to be in this meeting and get the job.
Zack Arnold: Short version, I agree with every single word that you just said, People rewind, and listen again, but I'm going to add another layer to it. Because I had this conversation with my students and clients all the time about the tell me about yourself conversation. And you said that you need to be able to structure your story. And I'm gonna modify that you need to have stories, because you're gonna have a different story based on the context of the person that you're talking to, or your background in certain areas is tremendously valuable to some totally erroneous to others. So if you have one elevator pitch, and you're pitching the right stories to the wrong person, dead in the water, but you structure the right stories in front of the right person, that's a game changer. And what I always tell people, and I'm very, very blunt with my students, when somebody says, Tell me about yourself, they don't care. They don't care about your hopes and dreams. The question that you don't answer is Tell me about yourself. The question you do answer is, how can you be valuable to me and make this project better? That's how you structure your story, which can be a little bit about you and your background. But like you said, it's not well, I was born and raised in this town, and then I went to school here. Yeah, I'm sorry that I mentioned that I don't care. But it's instead, here are portions of my story that are both entertaining, but also valuable to you. Yes, being able to structure your pitch that way is a game changer.
Niceole Levy: Absolutely. And that's part of when I talked about being flexible, right, you need to be able to think about like, oh, like, I'm up for this show. And it's a medical show, and I don't have a background in medicine. But I can tell that story about that time that, you know, my mom was sick, and we were in the hospital for 10 days straight. And like, what my observations were that I saw, like how you know, how the nursing staff tries to help take care of the family and do those things. So that you're, you're like, I have life experience that I can pitch into an episode of this show. And being able to find it in your life, right? And look, sometimes you're gonna get meetings, and you're just not going to really have a personal thing. But find the thing you love in the show and find a way to talk about it, right? Like, if you're up for a show, set in a bank, I have the worst I don't, I don't even like to hear my own bank account, let alone knowing anything about how things work, right. But I would read that script. And I would find a character that I really loved or identified with or something in the show that I can then go in and talk passionately about and relate to me like, you know, look, I you know, I don't know, I haven't had a lot of experience in the finance world. But what I do know is what it's like to put yourself through college, and then go out and try to prove yourself in a career and like this guy who's trying to be the bank president wants this job more than anything. But he didn't go to the fancy school and all that I am that guy like I get him totally. And that's how you can find a way to link it back to something personal.
Zack Arnold: Yeah I'm a big fan of that. And especially breaking down what are the deeper themes? Because the banking part that's very much on the surface, right, but the deeper themes are what allow you to bring your voice bring your point of view, which ultimately, if they just needed something to rattle off the dialogue and the slug lines. Well, we've got Chat GPT for that now, right? So especially if we want to protect ourselves as creatives going forwards, we have to bring soul and nuance and a unique point of view. And people like you said they get lost in the details. So I don't know anything about banking, but if you know about struggle and proving yourself. That's the theme of this character. So I think that that's that's so important. And that's actually a really interesting segue to where I want to go next. We talked a lot about how to tell your story how to prove yourself how to be Come prepared. Now you're there. And the world smacks you in the face with a Giant two by four of reality of what it really means to prove yourself in this industry. And I want to frame the second part of this conversation with one line from your book, that frankly, I think I'm not only am I going to steal it, but it's so profoundly perfect for all the work that I do, which is no your line in the sand. I want to talk about this because it is so easy to get swept up into the glamour and the glitz. And I've made it and I should just be lucky to be here, and I can't believe I'm employed. And boy, do people take advantage of that. So what do you mean by knowing your line in the sand?
Niceole Levy: I think that that applies to every stage of your career, right? And it will be real scary and real hard in the beginning. It starts though, even with just trying to break in, right? Like with our earlier conversation about it took me you know, 10 years to break into the business. There are people who hear that and they're like, there's no way and I'm like, well then know that now, know it now, don't be 10 years down the road and be like, I just threw away 10 years of my life, you got to know what you're willing to give up and know what you're willing to do. And it's perfectly fine to say, You know what, I think I don't love it enough. I don't love it enough to keep beating my head against this wall. And but you know, let's say you do and you get that first job. And there are a lot of things that you're going to be doing to prove yourself in terms of, you know, going home from a full day in the room and doing homework, because we're trying to figure out what the act out for Act Four is, and nobody has any idea. So you're gonna go home and do research and come in the next day and be like, what if we did this, because you're trying to prove yourself. And on the weekends, you might watch those movies that the showrunner keeps referencing, because you've never seen them and you want to fit in in the room. And so, and very quickly, your all your time is going to disappear into the show. And what you have to learn to do, and it is incredibly difficult is say none of this has to get done today. Right? That? Yes, I want to watch heat, because every show runner in the history of the world references heat in the writers room. And I have not seen it. So I need to watch it. But does it have to happen on this weekend when you have plans with your best friend and your boyfriend wants to take you to dinner? And you're going to cancel one of those things to watch this. No. You go and you live your life. And you figure out when you're going to have time to do that. There will be times absolutely right when the show runner is going to be like Hey, I hate to ask you to do this. But I need you to rewrite your outline over the weekend. And you're going to be like absolutely, and you are going to cancel everything. And you're gonna go home and you're going to rewrite your outline over the weekend. Because if you have a good, respectful showrunner, they're only asking you that because of deadlines. They're not asking you that because they want to suck up your weekend. And they're going to ask you this weekend, not every weekend. So you will go home and do it. But it's it's very much a thing of understanding your boundaries. It's really what it is right in this business. And that will continue to expand as you grow up in this business, because it'll be about what are you comfortable with in the room? What are you okay with? Like, does it bother you when someone says a certain thing in the room? Can you live with that? Do you need to say something, it all becomes this juggling act of figuring out what you can take and what you can't take. And some of that is just writer's room culture. Right? Some of it is just as much as we hate it. We all know, in a writers room. There's the experienced writer who talks over the the emerging writers trying to stop saying baby writers talks over the emerging writers, because they feel like they're who cares what they think. Right? You have you have a right to say to someone, like can someone ask him to stop doing that like, right? Or you can sit there and take it and try to find a solution. Now, everyone's going to deal with that different. But I think a lot of times, emerging writers think they're never allowed to be upset about anything. They're never allowed to feel bad about something. They're never allowed to be tired. There's no like you're still a person. And I think the biggest difference between when I came into the business and now is that we're all saying that out loud. Is that we are saying like if you're sick, please just call the showrunners assistant in the morning and say I am sick. I don't want to come to the writers room and get everybody sick. And the showrunner will be like thank God who Do you stay home until your well, because showrunners are germaphobes, pre COVID. So they're definitely worsening. It's so it's a lot of that, to me, it's a lot of knowing yourself. And knowing, knowing how you need to function, right, even to up to like, let's say you have five days to write a script, there are people who are going to twiddle their thumbs for three days, and then write that whole script in two days. I am the person who writes a whole rough draft in two days, and then very leisurely, goes through it and makes it better for three days. Everybody's different, but you got to know what works for you. Because what's not going to work is on day five, saying, Oh, I'm not going to be done in time. So you got to figure out how you get your script done on time,
Zack Arnold: And you used a very foreign word that I think many people might might not recognize a b word, boundary boundary boundary, very uncommon word in our industry. And I think that, as you said, which is so important, at least we're talking about this stuff out loud. But I remember when I began this way, back in 2014, I wrote an article about burnout and post production. You can't talk about burnout, right? But then everybody in the world coming out of the woodwork privately was like, Oh, my God, I feel exactly the same way. I didn't know that I was allowed to say it. Now we're at least talking about it. And the more we talk about it and share it, the more we can solve the problem. But for me, it all comes down to people don't understand or know that it's acceptable to set boundaries. Yes. You don't know what to say no to if you're not sure what you can or can't say yes to therefore, you just say yes to everything until you're completely burned out. jaded, cynical, this business isn't for me, I give up, I'm going to do something else. It is acceptable to set boundaries. But I think one of the areas where at least I've seen especially with like, as you said, the emerging people coming into the industry, the expectation is Oh, no, now, I'm going to have my full life outside the industry. And it's going to be nine to five. And it's like, we also have to set expectations within reality. Don't let people devalue you disrespect you take advantage you, you also need to know what you're getting into when you get into Hollywood.
Niceole Levy: Absolutely. And it is it is a balancing act. And new there's a learning curve, right. Like I said, you can be in a really good functional room that meats from, you know, 10 to three every day, or tend to four, three times a week, and you're like in a groove and you got plans on your days off. And then there's an emergency and the showrunners. Like everybody got to come in on Tuesday. And yeah, everybody has to come in on Tuesday, because that's how it works. And so you don't get to get upset, because you thought you had the day off on Tuesday. And we all gotta go in and work. Right? It's just I mean, a lot of that's been a grown up, but depending on your background, right? Adults have varying degrees of history of adulting. So
Zack Arnold: By the way, for anybody listening, when you said adults, you put it in quotes, which kind of encapsulates everything that I'm talking about right now.
Niceole Levy: Yes. And so I think, you know, it's, if you're if you have to be on set, you know, if you are lucky enough to get to go produce your episode, you are on set well before the the crew call because you have to be there rehearsal starts at crew call, you got to be there, you got to be ready to go. No, don't expect anyone to look for you. Because you're the writer, you're the least important person on set that day. So expect anyone to look for you. And like, you got to know how to manage your time and how to be respectful and all of those situations. You have to learn how to navigate the personalities. There's a lot that you're going to learn once you get there. So the writing is honestly the easy part. The writing will be the easy part. Once you get to the room because someone's going to help you do it, the chances that you will write a script that no one rewrites our I don't I don't think there's a DNA match that would be that astronomical like almost everyone as a staff writer gets rewritten. I know a lot of upper levels who still get rewritten. That's just life in the in our business. The showrunner is the final voice at the show. So your job as a staff writer is to turn in a draft those showrunner can work from if they're like, oh, there's couple good scenes in here, one to one the day. So really, unless you're on script, the energy is in figuring out the politics of the room, the personalities of the room, figuring out who to go to for that question right when you're like the showrunner asked me to do this thing this weekend, but my best friend's getting married on Saturday. Like, is it okay if I don't do it till Sunday. A, that's when you come to the me in the room. And I'm gonna be like, yes, go to your friend's wedding. Sunday is a workday for you. You do all this work on Sunday, but please do your God go to your friend's wedding. Right? Because you're not going to be sure. Because some part of your brain is like, well, the showrunner asked me to do this, I have to cancel everything. No, you don't you go to the wedding, you come home, you'll probably be too drunk to work. So you work on Sunday. But you need someone to help you navigate that. And hopefully there's people in your room or you have friends outside of the room that you can ask those questions to?
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and this is one of the reasons I think the book is so vital, is that you talk about the different kinds of writers rooms and the different personalities and the showrunners that respect you. And there are showrunners that don't respect their writers and don't treat them well, like really still. But yes, that is the case. What I want to summarize that I think is so key for somebody to understand, it's not just about the writers room, in this case it is but whether it's editing, directing any creative craft, whatever that skill is that you've been developing for years and years and years, is the least important part of succeeding at your job when you actually have it. It's communication. It's setting boundaries, it's time management, all of these things that we just assume you're really good writer, like that's just assumed you have to be able to manage the room and the politics and everything else. And I get a very common question. When I'm a guest on other editorial podcasts, they always say so what's the secret? Like, what's the number one skill that we should develop to be a great editor and work on shows like Cobra Kai, and I look at them with a straight face. And I say time management, they're like, high management, like, the reason I'm so good at what I do, is my ability to manage time, so I can do the things that I need to do in the least amount of time possible, sleep eight hours a night, have dinner with my kids. That's what makes me great at what I do not because I'm a workaholic editing 90 hours a week, I suck at what I do. And I make horrible decisions if all I'm doing is working. So like I didn't even know time management was like a thing. I thought it was all about the hard skills and the plugin packages or final draft or whatever, people are just going to assume you're really good at that stuff. You got to be able to manage yourself when you get the job.
Niceole Levy: Absolutely right your writing got you the job, your writing got you the meeting that got you the job. So they already think you are a competent writer. What you need to do now is go in and prove that you are a value to the show. And And to your point that's across the board, right? Any job you get hired in, in this business, your resume the recommendations, whatever it was that got you the job there so that you know the skills. Now, can you be a part of the team? And that's really what it comes down to. And to your point, I think there's no more important skill than communication. Because, look, we are complicated creatures. And we will take things the wrong way. Or someone will say something a little short. And we're like, oh, they're mad at me and all of that stuff. You need to learn to let things go when they don't matter. You have to learn how to react when someone says something to you, that does matter, and is not great, right? How do you handle that in your best, most professional way that also allows you to stand up for yourself and sort of be like, no doubt about that. You know, I was on a call recently where someone was saying something that like, it was frustrating to me because it was mischaracterizing what I had said. And so I finally just had to be like, can we stop referring to it the way you're referring to it because that is not what happened. Here is what happened. But we don't need to talk about it anymore. Because we're going to find a solution. Right? And sometimes you have to be able to say the words like I was on set, and I had been through a couple of very rough director experiences. And I was on set with an incredibly skilled director. And I was I still had PTSD from bad directors. And I kept asking the same question. And I my director was like, Cool, I got you. Okay, I got you. And I realized what I was doing. And I was like, I'm so sorry, I'm taking my past two directors out on you. I'm gonna go sit down now. And I just like, I owned it, I owned that I was being overbearing, and I went and sat down and we got everything we needed, and it was all fine. But I could have taken that the wrong way. Or I could have actually acknowledged my behavior, right. So it's sort of learning again, it's all about being a grown up. It really is.
Zack Arnold: Yep, being a grown up just kind of learning those basic human skills that, like you said, are gonna make you valuable. Which brings me to another area of your book that you recommend that I think is so undervalued as a skill or as a part of the process is what you call the vetting process. So if we're going to bring all this together, and we're going to make sure you're entering a work environment where your perspective your point of view and your voice are valuable, and a place that's going to respect you and your talent and your boundaries and your needs outside of work. The interview process isn't just Hi, I'm amazing. Hire me to cut your show. It's, I get to interview you, too.
Niceole Levy: Yes. Yes. Look, I've never been on a showrunner meeting where they don't say Do you have questions for me? So think about what your questions are before you go in. And hopefully, before you walked in the door for that meeting, you did add to your point, you did your own vetting, right. You looked up all the shows this person's worked on, and you were like, Oh, he knows so and so from two shows ago, and you called that person because you know them. And you were like, Hey, how's Niceole to work with? And hopefully that person was like, Oh, my God, she's amazing. You're gonna learn a ton. It'll be great. Or they'll be like, You know what, I didn't interact with her that much. But everyone else seemed to really like her. Where you need to be concerned is, um, I mean, I'm not sure that I would work for her again. Right, that's a red flag, they're probably not going to tell you more than that. But you will keep doing your vetting. And you will see what you can find out, you will say to your reps, if you have reps like, Hey, I got I got a little, I don't know about this, can you check into it for me? And the reason you do that, right is because getting your first job in this business with whichever field you're in, is incredibly hard. And sometimes getting your second job, it's even harder. So let's say you were on a show, I'm a writer on a show that got canceled. And I get a meeting on a show that I was recommended for right by people who liked me a lot. And I go do the due diligence. And what I find out is this showrunner, the reason they need to hire someone as the showrunner goes through staff writers like tissue paper, because mean and abusive to the staff, writers right? Now I have a decision to make, because I need a job. Do I need a job badly enough to engage in this situation? That's a decision only I can make. Right? And sometimes you need the job. Sometimes you need the credit and the money and you're going to take the job. But you go into it, knowing what you're getting into. The worst is when you think like, you've heard that the situation's like they're fine, they're fine. It's not going to be so bad. And then you get in there and you're like, What did I do? Oh, my God, how many weeks is this, like you and you know, from day one, that it's going to be rough. But even then you have a choice of how you react to it, right? Because then you can be like, I always put in my calendar, like every four weeks, the countdown because I like to make sure I'm getting paid all my checks, right? Because we get paid weekly. So I will like in my calendar, and it's like, Okay, here's the last week. And I'm like, You know what, you can you can do six months with this, you can do six months of this, and you're just going to call your reps and be like, I'm gonna finish this, and then I'm done. And I'm never coming back here.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, there's a saying that I use all the time, I use it a lot more in the this is a talk about different life experience than the industry. One of the things that I have been pursuing for the last five years is I decided I'm going to become an American Ninja Warrior. Not just I'm going to get in shape, but I want to become a ninja warrior. And I become pretty well known for that journey. But the point being that I've developed this really interesting thought process that can be used in this instance, as well, is that when you're going to do something that you just know, sucks, like I've run Spartan Races and tough motors and just been a miserable experiences. But I always say anybody can do fill in the blank, which is not necessarily true. But I convince myself of that. So if I were in your situation, which by the way, I've been in very toxic workplaces more than once on very high level shows where I had to do the trade off of this changes the game for me, this credit on my resume opened so many doors. So I would just say to myself, anybody can endure this until Friday. Anybody could do this until Friday, Monday comes along. Anybody can do this until Friday, and you just keep going along. But for me, like you said, drawing that line in the sand, is I'll endure the long hours and you know, kind of the comments here and there. But there is a certain level of disrespect that there is no paycheck. There is no credit. There is no notoriety that's going to be different for everybody. And I had that line and it was never crossed. They were playing with it. I don't know this is a tough decision. But I had that line in the sand. And for me, it just it really is complete lack of respect for me as a human being if they don't respect my talents or my storytelling choices, I might disagree with them. But at the end of the day, I can adore it when they disrespect me as a person. I'm out. I don't care who you are.
Niceole Levy: Absolutely no, absolutely and Look, I think that's a bare minimum boundary that all of us should have. And look, I know people who've endured that because they're like, but you know, I'm so scared. What if I can't get another job? Like, is it worth your mental health? Because that's where that goes, right? That goes to your mental well being. But and I would add on that to our, to our veteran discussion. Also think about when you're in those situations, what do you need to get out of this job? To your point that like, oh, this credit will open a lot of doors for me. Okay, so if I'm in that meeting, I'm going to be like, is this uh, are you just doing a mini room where we're all going to meet and write and then I never get to go to set? Or is there a chance I can stay on for production, because I'm really looking to get production experience. Or, in my case, I went back to broadcast so I could work in post, right? So but I did that, knowing that was an absolute guarantee of that job. So those are questions you can ask to like, if I'm going to take this job, is it really going to help my career is it more than just another paycheck? Because sometimes that's that's the deal banker is book, I know, this guy's not great. But I'm going to spend 20 weeks here, and then I'm going to have worked on a sexy straightening show. So more doors will open for me. And that's it's a real consideration. It sucks. It shouldn't have to be but it is a real consideration. And in the same way that title repetition, I don't I don't honestly know how this works in post. But for us title repetition can be a real thing where they just keep, you know, well, you haven't been a staff writer long enough. And so I was a three year staff writer. And I know a writer who was asked for a fourth time to take a staff writer credit and she just was like, No, she's like, I don't need a job app. Right. And that is a firm line in the sand that is a I will not allow you to devalue me. And sometimes that's what it takes. And you're gonna maybe not work for a year. And then someone's gonna come along and be like, how the hell are you only a story editor like, you should be you should be a producer right now. And you'd be like, well, here's what happened.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and that's definitely a challenge in post and, and other crafts as well, with the way that our industry is constructed. It's not like we're working for the studio full time like so for example, we work for Disney. We jump from show to show to show we're but we're building seniority, we're building ranks, every single show you start over, and whether or not you go from season one to season seven on the same show, or you do seven one season shows, you're getting the same amount of experience, but people judge you differently. And I see this both from the transition to assistant to editor or writers assistant to writer where it really is my pet peeve is with money. Where if I've worked like I've worked on multiple shows that have gone the distance, and then I'm going to go in and do a pilot or first season show. I'm like this is this is our rate like no, that's not my rate. Well, this is a first season show. I'm like, not to me, it's not I've been doing this for 15 years, this is my rate. Well, we can't afford that. It's the season one show. That sounds like a you problem. That's not a me problem, because this is what I make based on my amount of experience. But there's this feeling well, it's season one, and everybody's got to cut the corners and costs and they've got to take it for the team. It's like, No, we don't Yeah, right. And that's just this, the way that the industry is structured is it just devalues previous time if you weren't on the same shows, and it drives me crazy.
Niceole Levy: Yes, absolutely. And it's a real problem. Because, you know, there's such a weird thing happening in our business right now where you have people, you know, becoming co EPS who've never produced an episode of television. But then you have people who've produced 678 episodes of television because they worked in broadcast, but then they're somehow not as sexy as the writers who did all the streaming shows, but didn't ever produce an episode. And it's just this weird disconnect of like, experience is valuable. It is valuable. And like, in every facet of our business that has to matter that like getting someone who is not do cutting their first show, you're getting someone who's cut, you know, 50 shows, and that's why your show is going to be better.
Zack Arnold: Mm hmm. And I know that a huge, huge challenge in the writers world and show runners world right now. There's so much content, and the need for show runners is so high, but because of the way that streaming works, now you have people show running a show that had never even been on a set before. Which comes back to this idea of maybe you're working with a showrunner at the time that you know is not the best to work for not the best hours, but there's tremendous value in if part of their workflow is you're on set producing your episode. Man does that skyrocket your value because that's very uncommon. I have a showrunner friend of mine. That for The Guild was putting together like this kit for your new showrunner hero Other challenges you're going to have imposed. And here's kind of a toolkit to solve them. And he was having me consult on it. But we were talking about this idea that there are so many show runners that haven't gone the traditional route to watch other show runners to shadow under them. It's you wrote a great script, or you had a one season streaming, darling, run this show, there's a difference between being a great writer and being a CEO.
Niceole Levy: Absolutely, there is a huge difference. And you know, I touch on this in the book as well. Like, if you are fortunate enough to be staffing, you know, regularly, every job is teaching you how to be a showrunner. And it's teaching you what not to do, and what to do, right, because even my favorite shareholders did things that I didn't love, right. But they taught me so much about how to run a healthy room, how to have, you know, real camaraderie amongst people how to treat my production team, like, lots and lots of valuable lessons, the showrunners that are not so great, taught me all the ways in which I never want to treat people. And how I never want my writers to feel. And so you absorb all of that. So that then when it's your turn, you know, and you have to have a hard conversation with someone. You don't have the hard conversation while you're furious. You step away, and you like, figure out why you're so furious. And then you're like, Hey, can you you know, can we talk and then you're like, so here's the thing, here's why that thing you did, rubs me the wrong way. Let's talk about it. And you give that person the chance to learn and not, you know, feel like they're this big, you know, like a tiny little sea slug because you screamed at them in front of everybody. So there's you learn from every experience and and if you're not getting to go to set, and you're not getting to go to post that at least try to build the strongest relationships you can with the writers in the room, because they may go on to run a show that's going to have those opportunities. And that's you want to get to the place where you get to build your skill set.
Zack Arnold: And that's where the value of networking and mentorship and surrounding yourself with the right people comes into play. Which kind of leads me to what's the elephant in the room of our conversation, which is that you and I have spent all this time talking about a book that you wrote that you didn't want to write. Talk to me about the journey of ending up being the author of the de facto guide to surviving the writers room?
Niceole Levy: Yes. So Carole Kirschner, who I mentioned earlier, was like, you know, in a conversation with me, and that I think, I really think somebody should write a book that talks about how to succeed in the writers room. And I was like, That is a really good idea. Someone should definitely do that. And she didn't press it the first time. And then like, the second time, she was like, Well, I mean, you could write it and I was like, I don't have time to write a book. I did not have time to write a book. And you know, pushed it aside. And there are a couple more times. And then finally, she sort of was like Niceole, she's like people need this book. And you have had a career that gives you the experience to write the book. And I sat down and was like, Well, let me see if I have anything to say. And I wrote a table of contents. And then I sent it to a couple of other writer friends and was like, What am I missing, and they submitted some ideas. And suddenly, there was like 14 chapters. And I was like, Okay, I'll write the book. And a large part of why I did it is because I do mentor, but you can only do so much one on one mentoring. And, you know, I speak on panels, when I get the opportunity, I do all that. And I've taught a few times, and I've enjoyed teaching a great deal. But I don't know how to give, like, there's not like a show runner light that I can do as a teacher, right? Well, if you give me the script, it's gonna get the same amount of attention that I'm going to give a script or writers turned into me on staff. So it's so consuming, like, I just couldn't do it anymore. And this was a way for me to, to teach without being in a classroom really is what it came down to. And why finally, like threw my heart into it was okay, like, you can't go teach this class all over the country, but people can pick up this book, and hopefully, you know, colleges that have writing programs and stuff, people will read it and be like, Oh, this is what it's like, like to be in this world and to be in this writers room. So that's really how it came to be.
Zack Arnold: So I'm curious. Obviously, time was a big issue. You're very busy working on a multitude of different projects. But was there also a voice in your head that said, Who am I to be the person to write this book?
Niceole Levy: You know, interestingly enough, not but I think part of that was that every one I mentioned it, too was like, Oh my God, yes, you should definitely write this book because I had had this you know, Some people are lucky and they get on a show their first year in the business and it runs for, you know, four or five years, I went one and one and done like four in a row. And so I had worked for so many different kinds of shows and different kinds of show runners. And it just sort of, I had this, this scope at which I realized I had been through a lot, and I did have a lot to talk about. But you know, it is in all things I try to point out to people like, look, this is not exhaustive. This is my experience and the shared experience of some of my closest friends. But you know, everybody's story in this business is different. And two people can know the same show runner, and one can think they're a monster, and one can think it's the greatest guy who ever lived, right? So a lot of it is just going to be knowing yourself, and knowing what, what you're okay with and what you are to sort of repeat from earlier like, because it's still a bunch of people. And to your point, a bunch of creative people trying to work together, when we mostly like to sit on a couch in our pajamas.
Zack Arnold: Well, what I love about that is the confidence in the answer, because I think a lot of people would think, Who am I to write this not just this book specifically, but who am I to think that I can be the one that writes this pilot, or I'm the one to share this story. And for me, one of the biggest things to help me overcome or drastically reduce imposter syndrome, which is a very, very common thing for writers creators, doesn't matter what you do and creative work, you put yourself into your work. And there's this feeling of well, am I good enough? Or I'm not good enough? Or who am I to think that I can do this. But at the end of the day, you have to realize, everybody else is thinking the same thing. The difference is, you just decided to up and do it. And now the book exists. And now it's putting value out into the world. And even though you may not know, every single person, you're a mentor to 1000s of people by putting the time into this book. So I'm curious, having actually decided to hunker down, put this thing together? What are the changes that you've seen specifically to your career? Because you're now the author of the book on the writers room?
Niceole Levy: You know, what's been interesting is like, I was on a panel at the Austin Film Festival, and another panelist was like, Hey, I'm getting ready to open my first writers room, do you think your book would be helpful to me? And I was like, I do, actually, I think it would be very helpful to you. And I've had showrunners say to me, like, oh, like, I never actually thought about this from that point of view, right, like, so you made me think about this in a different way. Or I'm gonna give this speech on my first day in the room now, because you're right, you should just say this right up front. And just seeing that just seeing people really feel like they find solutions in it, you know, I've had multiple writers be like, Oh, I was going through this thing in the room. And I remembered, you talked about something like this. And I went and looked it up. And I was like, great, this is what I can do, you know, and to get through it. And so I find that really gratifying. To your point about impostor syndrome, though, let me just be very frank that like, this deadline came fast. And I was very worried I was not going to finish on time. And I have tweeted this before, like, I think I just wrote last year, I wrote, like my 19 episode of television, and not including all my pilots, and all of that stuff. And I was like, every time I'm like, oh, man, what if I can't pull it off this time? And I was like, idiot, you have 18 pieces of evidence that you are capable of doing this. But it's, you know, I think that's just natural. And I always feel like if I start to believe my own press, that's when the train is going to jump the tracks. So I'm like, if a little doubts not so bad, but yeah, it's Writing is hard. It's hard work. But it's also the greatest damn job. Like, I couldn't imagine doing anything else.
Zack Arnold: I love it. So in the spirit of mentorship, one final question. And that's going to require a little bit of time traveling. So you're going to be a mentor and you're going to time travel back to the moment that you can picture the most vividly. Where you were, the surest the you are ready to give up. It was those 10 that 10 year span, whether it's at the police dispatcher desk or baking the cookies, whatever it is, I first of all want to know what is that moment where you were so sure it was never going to happen. And as a mentor now, what are you going to tell yourself?
Niceole Levy: The moment was, I think, you know, I had had a manager who didn't do anything for me, and I had gotten a play project. used to nothing came of it. And I, you know, I had applied to multiple fellowships year in and year out, and it just nothing was happening. And I really thought like, ant like, I think this isn't going to work. I really think this isn't going to work. And I think, you know if I was talking to Niceole on that day, and I was lucky enough, actually, that I didn't talk to my mentor in that moment. But I had a wonderful mentor named Joyce Burdette, who had had poached me earlier about making sure I had a new sample written so that when I came to the realization, I was going to continue, the sample was ready. So I was prepared because I listened to her when she arrived to me. But I think if I was if I was younger, Niceole's mentor, I would just say to her, like, do you think you can be happy? If you give up? And if the answer is yes, then giving up is probably the right choice. But if the answer is no, and the answer was no, then you just got to pull your boots up, you know, and go write another script, and go do the thing. And, and it's terrifying, that fear that you are, are dreaming, and it's never going to be real, is very intense, and it can be paralyzing. And I think all you can do is keep that checking yourself and be like, can I be happy if I stop? And if the answer's no, then you keep going. You know, and I will tell you that for all the hardships that there were and there were many getting to call my mother to tell her that I had gotten my first TV writing job was one of the greatest moments of my life. And all of that had happened all the hard work and all her worry and her voice when she was just like, Baby, you did it. And, and it's like, and there was so much to come, right, so much hard work and so much everything. But it was all worth it to get to that.
Zack Arnold: That's what we in the industry call a mic drop moment. I loved everything about that. I think it's so important for people to understand that it's going to take a lot of perseverance, a lot of resilience. But the most important question is, am I going to be okay with giving up and if you are there's no shame in that. But I think more often than not, if we really think about it, and we look later into our lives, we're going to regret the things we didn't do or we didn't try. So you saw that future of well I'm not going to be okay if I give up and I have to be doing stuff anyway. So I might as well do the stuff that moves me towards this and clearly a paid off paid off for not only just you or your mom but everybody that you have now helped and mentored and touched and now through this book. So final most important but also easiest question I'm sold. Where do I find your book? How do I get in touch with you? How do I learn more?
Niceole Levy: You can buy the book at the publishers website it's mwp.com and they they did last week have a discount and might still be there you can also order it on bookshop.org and support a local bookstore when you do it. There's also of course Amazon per us but I'm I'm big on the supporting the brick and mortars if we can so that's great. And for now I am still on Twitter if you want to follow me for my fandorling and TV ranting and it's my it's @niceolecookies because I joined Twitter to promote my baking business originally.
Zack Arnold: And I love that you kept it it's fantastic.
Niceole Levy: Well you know why? Because my writers rooms always get cookies so everybody's like oh Niceole's bringing cookies today. Um, so yeah, so I kept it and and on Instagram with that same handle as well. And you know, we'll see how long the Twitter thing lasts. I'm on Spoutible now as well Spoutible is the is the new Twitter the hopefully less toxic
Zack Arnold: So now we don't tweet we spout is that that's a new verb I have to get used to using
Niceole Levy: It is. Yes. Yes. So um, yeah, so the same same handle everywhere, @niceolecookies. And yeah.
Zack Arnold: I love it. Well, I know that I learned just myself a ton from today's conversation. I hope that those that are listening, whether they're interested in writing, editing, composing, directing, otherwise, get a glimpse into both what it really takes to make it but also that it is absolutely doable with the right strategy and the right people around you. So having said that, Niceole, what an absolute ridiculous pleasure was to have this conversation and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to do it today. So thank you.
Niceole Levy: Thank you so much for having me. This is great fun.
This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared by Debby Germino and published by Glen McNiel.
The original music in the opening and closing of the show is courtesy of Joe Trapanese (who is quite possibly one of the most talented composers on the face of the planet).
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