Episode Highlights

• How career relationships and dating relationships relate to each other
• Why ‘I’m just an awkward person’ is a bad excuse for avoiding networking
• Overcoming the anxiety that comes with initiating a new relationship
• The shortfalls of building relationships online
• Grappling with your fear of rejection
• How to approaching a networking event with the goal of giving rather than receiving
• Dressing yourself for the conversation you’re preparing to have
• How to draw yourself into positive interactions naturally

Useful Links

• The Offline Dating Method

Transcript

Zack Arnold: I’m here today with Camille Virginia, by the way, for the second time, and if you want to go back and listen to our first interview, which is awesome, it’s optimizeyourself.me/episode41 Camille is the author of The Offline Dating Method, and she’s also the founder of Master Offline Dating, and she’s working on helping every human get the power to create meaningful in-person connections, and whether that’s for the purposes of making a new friend or getting a date, or as we’re going to talk about specifically in today’s interview, building quality relationships with the right people in your industry, so you can not only just land the next gig but start creating opportunities that are going to lead to a more fulfilling career. Now you have been called a social skills ninja, which, of course, I am a big fan of, because of my personal pursuit of becoming an American Ninja Warrior, but I’m going to tell you that, honestly, one of maybe one of my favorite things, if not my favorite thing, in the entire book that I want to mention in the introduction, and is perhaps the biggest reason that I’m excited to have you back on the show today, is you mentioned you have been asked out by 265 men, and the reason you know that is because you have a spreadsheet to prove it. So, I know that anybody that has a spreadsheet that tracks how many times that you’ve been asked out, you are instantly my new best friend. So, welcome back to the show.

Camille Virginia: Thanks so much, Zack.

Zack Arnold: I’m really, really excited about this, but first, I want to make sure to put out a bit of a caveat. Anybody listening right now is saying master offline dating. Well, wait a second, I thought that this was Optimize Yourself about how to move my career forwards, and you know, trying to overcome creative burnout and you know eliminate distractions like offline dating. What does that have to do with anything? Well, I’m going to make it very, very clear and this thing, so you understand the true value of having an expert like Camille on the show today. Whenever I work with people in my coaching program, and we go into how to better network, build relationships, and really build a path that’s going to lead to a fulfilling career, everybody says the same thing. Oh my god, this is just like dating. It is exactly like dating. The end result is that you want to have a marriage with producers and with directors, because you’re going to spend months on end in a small, dark room together, sharing multiple meals a day. You become married to them, and guess what, there’s a dating process to make that happen. So, who better to help us understand how to build those meaningful relationships than an amazingly talented offline dating coach, so that’s why you are here today. In the first interview that you and I did, and again, I’ll link to that in the show notes. You and I really kind of talk about some of the fundamental philosophies and ideas behind in-person networking, how to build these authentic relationships, and how to be authentic with people and how to start conversations, but it was more at a theoretical level, and one of the reasons that you and I connect is you’re very, very systematic and detailed about how to actually do something. So I wanted today to just be like this amazing step-by-step guide for anybody that’s saying, well, that all sounds great, but how do I actually build an authentic relationship with somebody, and by the way, I’m going to an in-person networking event this weekend, and I have no clue where to start, so I just systematically want to go step by step by step. So, once somebody listens to our first interview together, they kind of get the big picture. Now it’s a matter of let’s start taking action, right? But I think the first thing that I want to talk about which is what you talk about in the beginning of your book, is what’s really happened to our inability to create human connection because of all these apps and because of social media. So, let’s start by just talking about why in the world would you write a book about offline dating in the first place.

Camille Virginia: It’s interesting, you know, I was doing a podcast recently with another dating coach, and he said, when he first heard of my Business Master Offline Dating, and three years ago, he’s like, do people really need that? It sounds a little like, you know, people, people don’t really, they just talk to each other, don’t they? And I just went on back on his podcast a couple weeks ago, and he said, oh my gosh, Camille, you were like a psychic, you know, you could see this coming, and similar to you, Zack, I’ve heard your podcast interviews where you knew degradation of the human relationship to the cell phone. You saw that coming years earlier, and that’s what’s happened with interpersonal relationships, whether it’s dating, whether it’s in-person networking, whether it’s making new friends, all of that is just exponentially falling apart.

Zack Arnold: Well, in the, you talk a lot about, you know, this idea of going on all these dating apps, and the detriments of swiping left versus swiping right, and how it just kind of becomes this casino of people, and it’s all about immediate gratification, and I feel like in my industry it’s kind of become a crutch as well, where you say, well, I’m kind of socially awk. Word, and introverted, I don’t really like going to live networking events, and I’m so much more comfortable behind my computer, but I know I’m just going to use Facebook groups, and I’m going to use LinkedIn, or I’m going to go in Reddit threads, all of which are great, but that can’t be your only form of networking, because ultimately we crave human connection, and it has to be done in person, and I feel like these Facebook groups and these Reddit threads are kind of the same as Tinder and all of these other random apps that, frankly, I haven’t even heard of, because I’ve been married for 12 years and I’m completely out of the loop.

Camille Virginia: Yeah, exactly. I mean, social media, digital, anything is not really connection, like our brains and our wiring as humans has not caught up to how we quote connect on digital platforms, you know, we’re wired to be a tribe society, social creatures, and get that fulfillment from each other. I mean, when you’re not getting that, but you’re on social media all day, you may think that you’re being social, but it’s actually what I call anti-social media. You’re not, you’re not getting that innate fulfillment that you’re wired to crave, and there’s long-term and short-term consequences to that.

Zack Arnold: Well, and I feel like if you were to compare spending two weeks going back and forth and comment threads in a Facebook group or in a Reddit thread, and you’re having these conversations and providing value, or whatever it is, that all sounds great, but going to a live in-person networking event, having a strong, confident handshake, looking somebody in the eyes and using their name, you can build that connection in five seconds that might take you weeks to do online,

Camille Virginia: Exactly. And you’re going to be fulfilled on a level that you never even knew existed, even if you have some fear, and as, as you were talking through that, Zack, maybe some fears coming up for people already listening, of just like, oh my god, that sounds terrifying, but just know that fear is temporary. Fear is, you know, fears often not real. So, if you can push through that, which we’ll get into a step by step of, you know, baby steps, how to do that in different ways, different options, then you are just this whole new world is going to open up to you, and the fear will go away, and you will be so much more fulfilled and happy, and, and better in your business, better connected, more authentic relationships, like it’s just there’s an infinite amount of benefits from being able to get the skills we’re going to talk about on the podcast today.

Zack Arnold: Well, and I think the most important place to go first, which is what you already said, is the fear, that’s the reason why so many people in any industry, but specifically my industry, which is a collection of about 99.7% introverts, and I know that because every single person that I coach, except one, I had this one outlier, and Bob, if you’re listening, you know I’m talking about you, but I have this one outlier, it’s like, yeah, I love going to networking events, what’s the big deal? I could just go in, have conversations, have a beer, it’s fun, I’m like, what are you doing in my program, right? But here’s the funny thing, and we alluded to this a little bit in our first podcast, because he’s naturally an extrovert, he doesn’t have any networking skills, because he takes for granted that it’s easy for him to go to a bar and chat with people, but what he’s having such a difficult time with is strategy, he’s like, yeah, I just, I chat with people and we have a good time, but then I walk away at the end of the night and I’m like, so that was pointless, and the reason is he hasn’t forced himself to learn strategies because he’s not good at it to begin with, whereas fellow introverts like you and I, we’re terrified of doing these things, so it’s like, all right, I have to learn systematically, how can I be much better at walking into a room now, how can I start a conversation, how can I engage in a conversation where, as an extrovert, it’s like, dude, you just talk to people, but I don’t know how, right? So, let’s talk about what are those fears that people have that stop them from doing live in-person networking and just using the crutch of digital connection.

Camille Virginia: Yeah, I mean, there’s fear of embarrassment, there’s fear of looking awkward. There’s fear of being judged, you know. There’s a whole host of fears that can go with walking into a room and talking to people. If it’s been a while since you did that, or didn’t have a great experience the last time you did that. You know, we tend to remember the last thing, the emotions from the last type of interaction that we have, and associate it with future interactions that are similar, so the only way to get over that is to create a new truth for yourself and replace it on an emotional level with when I go to networking events, I love talking to people, I know how to do it, I know how to walk into a room, I’m prepared, it feels good. You can logically tell yourself that all day long, but until you have an emotional experience of that truth or baby steps to get there, nothing’s going to change, you’re going to continue to fear it. So, the fear is protecting you, and you know, Zack and I are introverts. We trust me, I grew up very shy. I can, I can really empathize with people who are getting hives just thinking about what we’re talking about right now. But please know that the skills we’re going to, we’re going to go over are learnable to anybody, and they’re very helpful, and once you get that general framework, you find your own flow, you get comfortable with it, you, you know, get into social momentum, which we’ll get into that too. But no matter what fear you have, you are able to get over it. I guarantee it.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, well, the two fears that you bring up that I think really apply, because you talk about the four fears in your book, and two. Of them I think really apply more specifically to the online dating world, like I don’t think anybody that’s listening to this podcast today is afraid of the fear that he’s already taken, so we probably don’t need to cover that one so much, but the first two I think are specifically relevant, which is number one, the fear of rejection, and number two, the fear of being awkward, so let’s talk a little bit more about those fears.

Camille Virginia: Yeah, the fear of rejection – it’s tricky, because the longer you go without having been rejected, and that could be like from someone who doesn’t respond to your email, like a friend, to, I don’t know, something a lot bigger, trying to get on a TV show, because your book’s coming out, and not having them respond to in the dating world. So rejection is just, you know, the longer you go without doing it, the more the fear that builds up around it. So it’s actually not that big of a deal when you get in the flow of anything, and rejection included. Any one of those instances doesn’t become a big deal anymore. It’s like, okay, cool. Well, then he didn’t respond, so I’m gonna go on to the next person and talk to this other person. And when you stop at one, like the first rejection, that’s when you get stuck, and you associate talking to people with, with being rejected, because you only had one instance, and so you got to push through that, get more memories associated with, associated with not being rejected, and that’s just a numbers game at that point.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I would agree with all that completely, and I think that the, the next fear, when it comes to specifically networking, and I hear this one all the time, and this one is going to be a little bit different than some of the things that you talk about, because you’re more specifically in the dating realm, but again, we’re talking about this as a matter of building relationships, so there’s really so many parallels, but the number one fear that I often hear from people is I’m afraid to go to a networking event, because all I’m doing is taking all I feel like I’m bothering people because I’m asking them to hear my pitch, because I’m selling myself, because I’m looking for a job, because I want their advice, and what I teach them is that you have to flip the script, right? You don’t go into a networking event hoping to get something out of it, you go to a networking event to give something, right? So there’s this idea of providing value, and that’s something you would do in the dating realm as well. Correct.

Camille Virginia: Absolutely, yeah, it feels better to give to receive, always, whether it’s compliments, gifts, or value at a networking event. So that’s a great tip, Zack.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, so what I want to do then is I want to really crawl into the brain of a very awkward social introvert, that has to go to a live networking event, and by the way, I can do that because I can crawl into my own brain, and I know exactly what that feels like, even to this day. And the funny thing is that anytime I talk to somebody about networking, they’re like, ‘You’re not an introvert, you’re so full of it. I’m like, ‘Just ask my wife, trust me, I am as extreme an introvert as it gets, so much so that, for example, I went to, not went to, but I was, I had a booth at a live networking event for my industry, where I essentially spent, I think, 12 hours straight in one constant conversation, just one person after another, every five minutes, coming up and talk to me in my booth, and I loved every second of it, I was in flow for 12 hours straight, and it took me two weeks to recover. That’s how you know you’re an introvert and not an extrovert, because I didn’t walk away feeling like, oh, I’m so energized, and I met all these people. I was like, holy Christ, I can’t do anything for two weeks. I, it was like I ran four marathons that day, and I loved every minute of it, and I didn’t feel awkward. So, going back to the first conversation that you and I had, if somebody’s already listened to it, this will sound familiar. This idea that you have to fake it till you make it. I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t have to fake it anymore, but because my internal nature is being introverted, I can’t get over the fact that it just completely drains my battery. So I’m very, very selective about what events I go to, because I know how much time it’s going to take me to recover afterwards, but the point is that I understand what it’s like to crawl into the brain of the socially awkward introvert, and the place that I want to start is how do we prepare before we even go, and you have all kinds of amazing, very practical tips to actually prepare to go to an event or just go out and meet people.

Camille Virginia: Yeah, thank you. Well, that’s definitely the first step. And I talk about this in my book, The Offline Dating Method. But basically, you want to get into like social momentum, so there’s things that you can do before you even go to events to put you in a state that is going to make specializing so much easier, and that could be, you know, so picturing ourselves, we’ve been behind a computer all day. Now it’s the evening, we haven’t, like, said one word out loud to anybody, because we’ve been working. Now we’re going to walk into a room full of people. Well, how do you want that to go? You want to walk in feeling good, so that means you need to dress for dress for confidence in a conversation. I like to say, when you, when you dress well, you feel good, or when you look good, you feel good, as my client likes to say. So that’s a great place to start. Wear something you feel confident in. And the second half of that is dressing for a conversation, you know, especially men are very visual, so if you wear something that’s a little bit different, or a little bit eye-catching, or a certain color, or pattern could be small, but. It gives people a reason to walk up to you and approach you, and you don’t have to do anything, you just stand there, they start the conversation because you’ve made it easy for them without even saying a word.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I think the one thing to add to this, which again I think will definitely demonstrate the difference between our audiences, but it’s the exact same principle, by the way. I love how you say, especially if you’re in the dating world, you’re a female, you want to maybe you know have some kind of a either dressing with a certain color or even a specific kind of ring or earring or whatever it is that would grab attention. In my world, what I tell people is that if you can find some form of, you know, an obscure logo on a T-shirt, so to speak, right? So I’ve seen this happen before, where somebody will wear a T-shirt where if you know the in joke, you’ve made a friend for life. If you don’t know the in joke, well, it’s just a shirt, right? And nowadays it’s all the 80s pop culture references that are happening in shows like Cobra Kai or Stranger Things, or whatever it is. So it’s not necessarily wearing a Stranger Things T-shirt or a Cobra Kai T-shirt, it’s wearing some random brand or some in joke in the show, and what that does is it immediately shows that the two of you have something deeper in common. So, what we’re always looking to do, and you can talk about this further, is how can I start this conversation as easily as possible? Oh, I can ask him about that shirt, I love that shirt, right? And that’s part of the preparation process.

Camille Virginia: Yep, exactly. And then, if you wear things that you love, like if you do love Stranger Things, and there’s an in-joke that you’re wearing the T-shirt that reflects that. Now you’re like, that the first thing you’re talking to about with this new person is a TV show that you love. I mean, you can’t get much better conversation starter than that. You’re not talking about the freaking weather, you know, you’re talking about your favorite TV show, that’s great.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, so I think that’s a huge, huge step for preparation, and in my industry, most people would be thinking, well, I don’t really think about what I’m going to wear to a networking event, because it’s not a fashion-driven industry, and it’s almost kind of like anti-fashion industry, where everybody’s wearing their grubby T-shirts and their jeans and their, you know, their final shirts, or whatever it is, and I feel like you don’t have to dress for success, per se, if you’re going to an event in my industry, but you’re still dressing, thinking about, like you said, number one, do I feel confident in this outfit, meaning does this fit who I am and project the kind of person that I am, but more importantly, as you say in the book, is that going to attract people that see the way I’m projecting myself and feel like, oh, they’re like me, right, because as we’ve talked about in the past, and we can talk about even more, one of our intentions of walking into an event, going to a bar, whatever it is, is not I want to meet as many people as possible, it’s I want to build genuine relationships, and I usually pick the number like three, depending on whatever the length of the event is, I’ll say I want to go to this event and I want to walk away with three lasting relationships, right? And if you’re dressed in a way that’s going to attract people that are similar to you, that you would have a more genuine relationship with, that’s only going to make it easier, right?

Camille Virginia: Yep, totally. And it’s like putting out your own custom bat signal. I like to say, you know, the more kind of unique you can be, and again, can just be a graphic t-shirt, or I don’t know, a cuff link with something cool on it, just just something small and understated. The more the people who are interested in those things, or who like that you’re a little bit different and you catch their eye, are going to be able to come up to you.

Zack Arnold: What it also does is it is going to reject people, not necessarily reject, but it’s going to help filter out people that don’t get the joke, which means that, well, they might be a good connection, but I’m not really here to create transactional relationships and try and get my name in front of everybody and hope to land a job. If somebody is really turned off by what you’re wearing, they’re probably not going to be a good fit for you anyway.

Camille Virginia: Perfectly put.

Zack Arnold: Right. Yep. So the next area that I want to go, now that we’ve kind of spent a little bit of time preparing for the event, thinking about how we look, how we want to project ourselves. I love this next section, and this is how to scout your location. This is brilliant. So, what are your strategies if you know you’re going to go to an event, so you can scout the location and feel comfortable about where it is that you’re going?

Camille Virginia: So, I like to say, when you step into a room or a new location, I mean, it could be walking onto a bus, onto a train, into a lobby, any place. Take a second and look around, and this will not only give you pause, which is always kind of nice to pause throughout our day, and remember that we’re human beings, not human doings, and you’ll get to kind of assess what’s going on here, like kind of feel into the energy of the room, pretend like you’re looking for someone, if it helps you know, look around the room, like, oh, I’m just looking for absolutely no one, but no one knows that, so it just looks like I am. And this gives you a chance to kind of take in the room, make eye contact with potential people, so that makes it that much easier to go up to them, because they know that you, you know that they’ve seen you, and vice versa. You can choose where you want to go, as opposed to just walking in and blindly going over to a group just because you’re afraid of being seen alone or something. You know, this gives you a chance to be intentional about it. Maybe there’s a small group of three people that would be a better fit for you than a large group of 10 or a small group of just two who look like they know each other already. So those kinds of things can just. Really, help take that fear of I don’t want to be rude, I don’t want to be interrupting people, do they already know each other, just off the table, and just kind of let, let things pause for a second, and see where you’re pulled.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I think that’s a such a huge thing, and I love this idea of kind of surveying the room, but more importantly, I really want to emphasize this point, because I’ve, I’ve tested this, and, my God, does this work? You can kind of walk into the room, so I’m picturing if I’m going to a meet up at a bar, or if I’m going to, you know, maybe into a larger conference room, and it’s kind of the social hour, or whatever it is. I think that the most common thing that an introvert does is they kind of slowly baby step into the door frame, maybe step a little bit outside the door frame, and just kind of stand there, and like, oh my god, there’s so many people in here, and what should I do, right? But what I’ve learned is that to overcome that fear and to kind of do the fake it till you make it, I just walk in and I’m thinking to myself, I have to find somebody, so I’m looking around specifically like I know exactly where I’m going, and I’m like, where is that person, are they over here? Are they over here? My eyes are dieting all around. So, what that does, number one, is it makes me feel more confident, but number two, it actually makes me a little bit less approachable at first, because somebody might be thinking, oh, who’s that person? Oh, they look like they’re important, and they’re already looking for somebody, right? They know something that I don’t. So, it helps me get a sense of the room, and I kind of get to make the choice about where I want to go, as opposed to, well, if I just stand here against the wall, then I guess somebody hopefully at some point will start a conversation with me, but then you walk away at the end of the night saying, why did I have a bunch of meaningless conversations and I didn’t really get anywhere, right? And again, that’s kind of about setting that intention, and I love this strategy of just walking and looking for people. I think that’s a really, really big one, whether it’s dating or whether it’s networking, same thing, right?

Camille Virginia: Yep. Claim that power when you walk into the room, and as we’ll get to in kind of the next phase, a little teaser for that. When you can come up with a mantra of walking in, you know, once we tell you how to connect with people, you’ll see the gifts that you are giving them, the value that you are providing them. So, the next time you walk into a room, you know that about yourself. You’re the person who has meaningful connections, who people come away from conversations with that are fulfilled and happy, and they love your conversations. So, now you start turning into the person who walks into rooms thinking, all right, which you lucky humans gets to talk to me, and you start building that confidence because you see the value that you’re delivering from the conversation skills that we’re going to be getting into in the next phase,

Zack Arnold: And whether or not somebody realizes that you’re drawn to people that are doing that. So, you mentioned this in the book, but we’ve all seen that person that just kind of walks into a room and you’re just like, who is that right? And you have no idea who it is, but I’ve even had this experience where I’m like, that must be a celebrity or an actor, like I know that person from somewhere, but it’s just because they know how to create that presence. They’re not necessarily a celebrity in and of themselves, but they’ve learned the strategies that celebrities use to create that presence, you’re like, oh, I gotta talk to that person, right. So that’s really what it’s all about. And I think that one of the things that I want to mention that will help you do that is actually taking maybe a bit of a step backwards, but it connects to this idea of how can I create more of this presence in the room as I’m scouting my location and I’m entering, and I want you to talk a little bit more about this thing called the alter ego effect.

Camille Virginia: Yeah, so that, that is really tapping into like an extension of yourself that is the more brave, the confident, the social aspects of you, kind of all in one, so you can step into the role of that person who is the networking Zack, you know? Well, you know, Editor Zack has been busy all day behind the computer, but now it’s Networking Zack time, and it’s still you. It’s still authentic, but you’re bringing a different energy to it. You are in social mode, you’ve, you’ve warmed yourself up. Maybe you called your friend before you stepped in, so you’ve warmed up your vocal cords before stepping into a room of people and having to have a bunch of conversations for the first time that day, you’re wearing something you feel good in, you know. All of these are, I mean, just kind of like the movies. It’s what’s the setting, what’s the scene, who are the characters, what’s the costumes, and the wardrobe, things like that. What think of the script that would start going along with all those?

Zack Arnold: Well, in one of the examples of this, I don’t even.. I don’t know if he was the originator of this concept, the alter ego effect, but you talk about Todd Herman, and people in my industry probably have not heard of him, but he’s really big in the productivity space and goal setting and personal development, and when you’re thinking, well, what is what does the alter ego effect even mean, he just said, you know what, I’m not sure I look professional enough or old enough or smart enough to be doing this, so I’m gonna put glasses on, even though they don’t even have lenses, right? It’s that simple.

Camille Virginia: Yep, exactly. That could be a simple pair of glasses. I used to do that too when I first started teaching workshops. I was like, I was nervous, and so in order to take things less personally, I would wear glasses that were, you know, like point five prescription or something ridiculous I didn’t even need, but. It helped me bring out a different side of me, and also had a physical barrier between me and the women I was teaching, so it helped me to get more comfortable, and you know, by that fifth time, I didn’t need the glasses to teach the workshop, but it was a great step in between.

Zack Arnold: Sure, and again, this isn’t something you need to maintain forever, but if it gives you just enough confidence, or like you said, that barrier, then you can think to yourself as you’re preparing for the event. Well, what could I do that gives me that alter ego effect? And for me, and this was.. I didn’t know about the alter ego effect, but I realized I was doing this. I have a very specific wardrobe that I wear when I do my online teaching and instruction. That’s when I become the very extroverted, very confident, very well spoken, and articulate version of myself, which is who I am on a podcast, or when I’m in front of a camera teaching a lesson, and I thought, huh, what if I just wore that same shirt and I wore that to a networking event, would that make any difference? And all of a sudden I was a completely different person just because I had chosen the same shirt that I wore in my videos. Like, holy crap, this is really powerful. So now it’s not exactly the same shirt every time, but it’s almost the same shirt, very similar fit, similar color, that’s kind of becomes the networking Zack, or the Zach’s on a panel, right? That is that person, but if I were to wear that to the office, people would be like, “Dude, where are you going? Like, what, who dressed you today, right? Because it’s a very different outfit and wardrobe that I wear if I’m going to be in a dark room cutting stuff all day, so that alter ego effect made a huge, huge difference for me.

Camille Virginia: That’s amazing. I love that.

Zack Arnold: So, one thing that you alluded to that I think is probably the number one question that I get about networking in general, and I don’t want to go too general with it, because I want to stay with kind of more the offline method and not go into email outreach or social media, but you really can’t apply this in many contexts. Everybody asks me, everyone says that I’m told I need to provide value. Great, how do I provide value? And you talk about it in so many different ways, whether it’s how you can make yourself more approachable, and you’re thinking, well, how can being approachable provide value where you’re making it easier for somebody else to start a conversation with you, but then you also give a whole bunch of different ways that you can start conversations that at the end of the day provides value to other people, because we think, well, providing value means that I need to do a week’s worth of free work, or I need to volunteer my time, or I need to fix your car, or whatever it is, providing value is so, so tiny, so I want to start getting into the nuances of starting these conversations, and how we can provide value to others to continue the conversations.

Camille Virginia: Yeah, I mean, getting the gift of presence and authentic curiosity, and being a good listener, and sharing about your own self to someone that is a gift, that is a rare gift that people are unfortunately not giving to each other these days as much as they used to, because of all of our digital distractions, technology, things like that. So, when you can be the person who gives that to people, you are, I mean, that’s worth a year’s worth of free work. Sometimes it’s just one conversation where you make someone feel seen and heard and acknowledged. I mean, that is a total gift, and they will walk into some, some ways to do that, but, but, yeah, even just, you know, eye contact and a smile with someone, letting them know that, hey, I see you, hey, I like your, I like your pants, or whatever, like those simple things that you think may have no value have are priceless, especially today.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, it’s.. I see that, especially when I do my coaching program, and I’m telling people how to write email outreach, and I go, “Do I provide value to somebody that’s so far ahead of me? And I say, “Well, just watch something that they’ve worked on and show your appreciation for it, and how it inspired you. And they’re like, “But that doesn’t provide value. I’m like, are you kidding? You just verify it and acknowledge them as a human being. Of course, it provides value to them. I like, oh right. So, it’s just about I’m verifying that I acknowledge you as another person, and I appreciate you being in front of me. And, oh, by the way, you know, nice pants, or love that shirt, or whatever it is, those are all great ways to provide value immediately, and you have basically this list of 11 different ways you can start conversations, and I want to start going through some of them, because I think they’re also great ways to provide value. So, what’s number one on your list of best ways to start a conversation?

Camille Virginia: Number one, I believe, is to provide a random act of kindness, and this could just be anything from someone who dropped something on the floor, you know, picking it up and hunting them down and giving it back to them, to giving a compliment, to just doing something nice that maybe other people see the opportunity to do, and they’re like, oh, I should have picked that up and given it back to him, but, oh, well, he’s gone now, you know, those kinds of things.

Zack Arnold: All right. Well, then I guess that leads us to number two, which would be how to drop a compliment, right? Because that is part of providing value, and it can also be a random act of kindness. But I even think with this one, if I had looked at this a couple of years ago, I would have said, “Well, sure, I want to drop a compliment. I don’t know how to do that. How do we do without feeling weird or awkward or creepier? Like, what do you like? Sometimes you think it’s a compliment, and it just comes off so super awkward. So, what are easy ways to kind of interject yourself either into an existing conversation or sidling up to somebody that may also be thinking, God, I hope somebody starts conversation with me. How do we give them a compliment and help it and just make it feel genuine, and make it not feel creepy or weird, and just kind of use it to start a conversation and provide value, because even me, I’m thinking I’m not sure I know how to do that,

Camille Virginia: So it has to be genuine. Key word that you mentioned there, it’s got to be genuine. So a compliment doesn’t always have to be this looks great or that’s amazing, it could be, oh, that’s an interesting watch, like, tell me more about that. You know, it’s just it’s providing value by saying something nice about someone or someone being that they’re wearing. Look for something on someone and that catches your eye. And this is, you know, you’re actually doing this for other people when you wear something that stands out a little bit, like we talked about earlier. So it could just be, you know, nice watch. Tell me more about that, or hey, I’m a Cubs fan too, or just things like that. How can you make the other person feel better in that moment in a way that’s that’s genuine to you?

Zack Arnold: And I think that one of the important things to remember, and I hear this all the time with people that I’m working with, and they feel like when I go to these events, everybody else is already in these conversations and they seem so confident, and I’m just standing here all by myself. I’m like everybody there is thinking the exact same thing that you are. So, if you want to provide value to somebody, start the conversation with them and make it easy, because in their mind they’re thinking, oh, thank God somebody started the conversation with me, and we’re talking about something that I like, which again connects back to the previous thing we talked about, which is prepare before you leave, so you have a conversation starter on your body if it’s something that you want people to talk about, and one of the ones that you provided. I’d love this strategy. Oh my god, I’m so going to use this going forwards. Talk to me about your strategy, where you leave your name tag on when you’re at an event that doesn’t need one.

Camille Virginia: Oh yeah, this I found out by accident, because I, you know, you go to an event, you have a name tag, you leave it on for the rest of the day, and it’s amazing how many people will, you know, think that they’re funny, and they’re like, “Oh, hi Camille, and they don’t actually know me, they just read my name tag, but they’re trying to kind of be funny. I started catching on, and I was like, “Oh, this is a great excuse for men to come up and talk to me. I mean, you know, they think they’re being hilarious, but really, whatever, I don’t care, they can do that, and I’ll know what’s going on the whole time, but it’s, it’s genius, you know, just it’s, oh, where did you come from, what event, how was the event that you were at, you know, you automatically know their name before you even talk to them, so this small little hack to get more people to come up to you,

Zack Arnold: Yes, and I’ve, I’ve done this inadvertently. It wasn’t with a name tag, but this has happened to me more than once. Where I’ve come from an event at my kid’s school, and they make you wear this big giant yellow visitors badge, and I’ll go somewhere else with a visitor’s badge still on, and it always starts a conversation. And it kind of struck me, too. It’s like, huh, in the right context, I might actually be able to use this, but I didn’t really put two and two together until I read in your book. I’m like, oh, that’s a really, really genius way to do it, is by inadvertently but intentionally leaving a name tag on, where maybe you didn’t even have a name tag at an actual event, you just show up somewhere with the name tag already, and like you said, it gives somebody a reason, but we’re always thinking to ourselves, all right, if I have to start the conversation, please, please, please give me an easy reason to start it, so I don’t have to think of it, and that’s a great way to give me a reason to start that conversation, because most of the people that I talk to, they say I’m actually really good once I’m in the conversation, it’s starting the conversation that’s the hardest part for me, and it’s the same way for me too, where if I’m in a networking event and I feel comfortable with people, I can go for hours and hours and hours, but if I don’t know them and I don’t know how to start the conversation, it can ruin the whole night.

Camille Virginia: Got it. Well, I think my tip of talking to people like you’re already friends with them will be huge for everyone listening right now, and that’s something that I didn’t used to do. I used to do the opposite. I would think of my friends are my friends? I talked to them the way that you and I are talking right now, just as friends are a casual, but for some reason I had it in my mind I had to switch into a different mode to talk to other people, and I call this this like networking persona, and it’s not the alter ego we were talking about earlier, because that’s an authentic extension of you, but this networking persona I would encounter with other women at conferences was this like very high energy high pitched high oh my god, How are you? It’s so nice to meet you, and I would be like, oh, I guess this is what women do, it’s okay, I guess I got to do that too, and it’s just completely false, you know, show up to a networking event and pretend like you’re already friends with people, have a conversation like you and I are right now just in your normal voice, ask a question you would ask of a friend, say something you would say to a friend, you know those kinds of things, and that will just take the pressure off you to be this version of yourself, whoever you think you have to be when you step into a room that isn’t really you, so you’re trying to bridge the gap between the authentic you and the you that you’re projecting just. Make them one of the same,

Zack Arnold: Yeah. That level of authenticity is absolutely key. And while you were describing that, I just came up with a new networking term, by the way, or I’m going to let you steal it, but I think I’m going to use it in my program. We’re going to call that the falsetto networking approach.

Camille Virginia: Ooh, I love it,

Zack Arnold: Because you’re you, it’s a false, inauthentic approach, but you’re also using the falsetto voice, right? Hi. Oh my god, like, nobody talks like that, but I don’t think that men go into that mode as much as women do. But I know exactly what that looks like, and it’s an immediate turn off. Even as you were demonstrating it, I kind of started to get, like, it’s like, oh my god, nails on a chalkboard, that’s so annoying to me. And I find that, and this is kind of this is going to go a little bit deeper into human psychology, but for anybody that may have listened to my recent interview with Gretchen Rubin, we talked about the four tendencies, and I know that you’re familiar with the four tendencies as well. One of those tendencies is the rebel tendency, and I’m not going to go too deep in all four of them. If you want to listen to that, I can put a link to our podcast together, but the reason that I think it’s important in this context is that one of the largest tendencies I think in creative fields is the rebel tendency, because we tend to shy away from the corporate world and structure, and we want to create, we want to be ourselves, and one of the truest, deepest values of a rebel, and I myself am a combination of a questioner and a rebel, but one of the most important values to a rebel is authenticity. So, if you are being inauthentic, a rebel can smell it a mile away. So, if you’re taking this falsetto approach without you even understanding it, you are turning people off immediately, especially those that might react to you if you were being more authentic to begin with.

Camille Virginia: I like that, and I think you know, I don’t think I’m a rebel. I’m remembering, are when we saw Gretchen at the conference that you and I were at together, Zack, but I don’t think I’m a rebel, but just with any human, it’s just uncomfortable, and you can sense that someone is off, so I’m sure a rebel goes the extra step of like, no conversation over.

Zack Arnold: Yep, I would agree with that completely, and you’re definitely not a rebel. If I were to guess off the top of my head, not knowing you super well, but knowing you a little bit, would I be correct in saying you’re probably an upholder?

Camille Virginia: That sounds familiar. Yeah, I think you’re right.

Zack Arnold: I think you’re probably an upholder, because anybody that can put together the book proposal that you did and write this whole book in the amount of time, you must have some amazing internal discipline and ability to meet your own expectations that I think most human beings don’t possess, so I think you’re one of the rare breed where you can uphold both your inner and outer expectations, for sure.

Camille Virginia: Thanks. Great.

Zack Arnold: So, the next area that I wanted to go, and talking about this kind of top 11 list of ways to start a conversation, we may not get through all of them, but I frankly think, at least for the context of this conversation, and especially professional networking. This is by far the most important one, and that is the idea that you need to change it up. So, I first want you to talk about just what that means in a general context, and then I want to dive deeper into this, because I think this is the number one mistake that most people make when they network.

Camille Virginia: Yeah, this is as simple as taking a standard question that you get asked all the time, like how’s your day going, how are you, you know, at the grocery store, at the airport, the taxi driver, everyone asks this question that’s more of just like a greeting, you know, some people don’t even answer the question, but instead of saying good, how are you, which is the default answer, say something just different, anything different that is ingenuous to you, so it could be I’m absolutely fabulous. How are you? Or it’s Monday, but I got big plans for the weekend, so I’m really excited. It could be as simple as doing that.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I think that, and I know this for you, this is like one of the, the 11, and there’s some really good ways to respond to questions. I think what I want to dive into deeper here is how in a networking setting, or not. I don’t even like to use the word networking in this case. In the setting where you’re trying to build new relationships with people, which I think is different than networking, because people hear the word networking and they say, “Oh, it’s about finding jobs and building connections, and blah blah blah. So I’m going to stop using that word in a context where you want to build relationships. What you always end up doing, especially at these meetups that people go to, it’s always the same question. Oh, so what are you working on right now? What project are you on? What do you do? Who do you work for? Right, and I feel like if you can change up the questions that you ask, but also your responses to those questions, it takes so much of the monotony out, because the more unique your answers and your questions are, the deeper you get to finding those personal connections, which are going to lead to relationships, as opposed to it just feeling transactional.

Camille Virginia: Yes, exactly. And that’s where you know a question like, what’s your biggest accomplishment from the past six months, or what are you most looking forward to in your life right now, or what was the best part of your day. Those questions are going to be fun to ask, and the answer is going to be fun to answer, and you’re going to have a great conversation about something that they already enjoy. I mean, those are those are coded to bring out an answer that is fun to, in a happy to talk about, you know. So, if you can just insert those and start making those your new default opener questions. Is there’s always going to be a best part of someone’s day. They’re always going to be excited about something. It’s very easy to relate to that. You’re not like talking about sports, and maybe they don’t like sports, but it shows a genuine interest. It feels better to ask, and that just asking that question and asking about someone’s day is value. You’re adding value in the moment by just asking,

Zack Arnold: Well, how am I adding value, though, if I’m just asking that kind of a question?

Camille Virginia: Because you may be the only person who has looked this other person in the eye for weeks and asked how their day was, with the intention of actually wanting to hear that, is a gift,

Zack Arnold: And that’s what I wanted to get to, was the intention of actually wanting to hear it. Right, you’re acknowledging their existence, it doesn’t feel transactional, it doesn’t feel like you’ve asked 20 other people the same question. Oh, you’re interested in me, which I think if you want to think about the number one way to provide value to any human being in any context, just get them to talk about themselves a little bit and show interest in who they are as a person, and you, you can use that till the end of the year to get whatever you want.

Camille Virginia: Yep, exactly. And when you ask questions that you yourself care about, then it’s a win-win, because you actually care about the answers that you’re getting, and the stories that come out of that. The minute you ask a question that you don’t actually care about, you’re already losing the conversation. It’s not going to be fun to ask, they won’t have fun answering it, and now you’re talking about something that neither of you cares about.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, exactly. And what’s the point of that? Then that’s when you get into that awkward moment of you’re just kind of standing there, and you’re like, huh, all right, so I know I should be talking about something else, but they’re kind of awkward. Oh dear God, can somebody else please come into this conversation? Oh, good, somebody interrupted us, right? Like, we’ve all had that moment, but the opposite of that is you start to get into that deeper conversation that’s just the two of you, and you’re actually getting to know each other, and without you realizing it, you are providing value to the other person just by showing interest in them. That’s it. It’s really that simple.

Camille Virginia: Yeah, it is. And you’re enjoying yourself in the process. This is not about sacrificing your fun for the sake of other people feeling good in your presence, you know. This is about like co-creating a conversation together, adding value to each other, and that’s when the magic happens. That’s when the things that are supposed to come out in conversation, the people who you’re supposed to meet, when you’re at that level of authenticity and curiosity and caring, even if you just met them 20 seconds ago, you know, find something to care about with this person. This is a human, they have fears and doubts and dreams, and they’re working on things, and maybe some of those are things that you can link up with, maybe, maybe you have some things that would help them. We don’t know, but create that safe space of being genuine and authentic and curious, and that allows what’s meant to come from that conversation to come out.

Zack Arnold: And I think that that’s where, again, it’s so important if you just shift your entire perspective and mindset from I’m going into this event or to this meetup or whatever it is to get value to get something. What if instead I wanted to give something? It changes the questions you allow yourself to ask others, because if you’re thinking the whole objective of this conversation with this one person that I’ve never met, I have no idea who they are, I don’t know what their life looks like, I want to provide them value. Well, I need to figure out how. I don’t know how to provide you value, and yes, getting you to talk about yourself is providing value. Sure, I’ve complimented you. All right, so now I’ve provided a little bit more value, but how can I go a lot deeper into this value chain, so to speak, to the point where it leads to more connections, it leads to maybe a lunch meeting, or whatever it is. There’s no way for you to know how to provide value until you ask better questions. So, by default, just changing the framing and saying I need to provide you value instead of the opposite, I ask better questions, which intrinsically provides more value. It’s so.. it’s.. it’s a virtuous cycle instead of a vicious cycle.

Camille Virginia: Love it. Yep. And you feel good in the process.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, exactly. So one thing that I wanted to go into, even a little bit deeper here, is I tell people to gamify the process of networking and asking questions, and I say go to your next event, but you’re not allowed to ask what do you do, or what are you working on right now, and they’re like, oh crap. Well, then what do I ask them first? Because that’s how I start every conversation. So, let’s just throw out some ideas. I just want to do like live brainstorming. If I told you that we were going to go to an event together, but we’re never allowed to ask people what they’re doing, what’s their next project, what’s their current project? What are some ways to start meaningful conversations? What are some good questions we could ask,

Camille Virginia: I think, the ones that I mentioned earlier are good things, you know. People are, they’re always excited about something. There’s always a highlight of their day. They may not even realize it till they verbalize it to you in that moment, because you asked. You know, people are really sitting around thinking, what’s the best part of my day? But when you’re asked a question, you actually think about the answer, so it brings that to the forefront of their mind, which again is a gift, and this will change depending on what each person who’s listening right now is actually interested in, you know, maybe you are into health and fitness, and so you ask, you know, questions about, you know, are you in. Any paleo diet or bulletproof coffee, or any of those diet types, or things like that, or maybe you’re into running and you ask about, I don’t know, do you work out or do you go for runs? We live in such a beautiful city, and I see people running all the time, and I’m getting into it. How about you? Questions that you actually care about, they could go as specific as that. I like to start a little bit more general, and then just see where the things go from there, but, but, yeah, that’s getting curious about topics and aspects of people that you, you want to know more about. There’s always something to learn about someone else, or about yourself in a conversation with someone else.

Zack Arnold: One of my favorites that I love to use, and this is going to be a matter of wording, is I like to, any, the again, if I’m gamifying this, and we talked about this a little bit in our first conversation, so I don’t want to be labor too much, but the result is I want them to be like, oh, huh, that’s a really good question, because you know you’ve thrown them off guard, and they’re not just repeating the rote responses that they said to like 10 or 15 other people, and instead of just talking about the successes, or you know, the best part of your day, all of which I think are really, really good options, I like to flip the script sometimes, and I like to say, so what’s the most challenging thing that you’re working on right now? Nobody likes to talk about their problems, but everybody likes to talk about their challenges, because that’s fun, because challenges are something we overcome, problems are things we complain about, and we bitch and moan about. Nobody wants to hear your problems, but if you just reframe it as a challenge, I love to know what’s challenging people. So, one of the ways that I find that I love to provide value to others is just understanding what are their challenges. As soon as you ask that question, guess what? It opens up the door for you to potentially provide value. So, I’ve had a couple of people in the past that you have one person that’s like just introductory assistant, very little experience talking to somebody with 20 years experience, and they’re thinking there’s no way in the world I could ever provide value to this person, like I can’t imagine all I could help, but they asked a couple of the right questions, and that person that was very experienced, that oh yeah, I just transitioned from this software to that software, and I don’t know my way around. And guess what? This entry-level person was an expert at that new piece of software, so that was the value they could provide, but they had to understand what challenges was that person dealing with at the time.

Camille Virginia: I love that. That’s fantastic.

Zack Arnold: So, the I always, whenever I tell people to gamify it, they just look at me with like, dear, and the headlight looks like I don’t know how to start a conversation without saying what do you do, but again it kind of tips the person off that you’re talking to. Oh, this is going to be a different conversation, and I might actually remember this one as opposed to the 20 before, where I just kept telling them the same thing about the same projects that I’m doing. Right, so we don’t have a whole lot of time to go through all these, but there is one more that I think is a really good one, specifically for introverts, and especially the introverts in my industry that are, you know, more keen to pop culture and movies and television, and you know, have specific senses of humor. You have one that says, ‘Share a short quip, and I think this often means, like, sharing something a little embarrassing that everybody else around you is already kind of thinking, and this is a great way to provide value. So, what does it mean to share a short quip?

Camille Virginia: This happens in those moments when there’s several people around, or a group of people, and something happens, and everyone just kind of has that moment of, did anyone else see that? Like, what was that? What just happened? And you’re kind of looking around with strangers, but bonding in that moment. I call it a shared moment. So, saying a short quip is basically like just commenting on that, is all these things that everyone’s thinking in their head of, like that was weird, is that guy gonna, you know, get off the train tracks, or you know, whoa, what’s going on here, and you just say it out loud, like anyone want to help that guy off the train tracks, or things like that, maybe that was a more serious one, that wouldn’t be so funny, but I don’t know, just something that you know everyone’s thinking is, and you’re the person to say it out loud.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I think that another way to put this, and I use this specifically in the context of when somebody goes into a job interview, but you can absolutely apply to the live event context, is there’s an elephant in the room, but nobody’s pointing to, looking at, or talking about the elephant, so I’m going to start talking about the elephant, and I’m going to bring that up to somebody, and, like you said, the best response is, “Oh my god, yes, I thought I was the only one, right? And I find that you can combine this with an icebreaker, so I found that one of the best icebreakers, specifically in my industry, with the types of people that work in it, is you just kind of find a group of these socially awkward introverts that you know have their, their 80s pop culture t-shirts, and you just kind of walk up to them, you’re like, so am I the only ridiculously socially awkward introvert that has no idea how to start conversations with anybody else? Okay, good. So that’s where that’s this is that’s what this part of the room is. All right, great, I’m standing here, and as soon as I do that, everybody’s like, ‘Oh, yes, that’s me too. And then we’ll start a 15 minute conversation, and what I find is that oftentimes once you just get somewhere and you start one conversation, it’s just like one chain to another chain to another chain, and it doesn’t end, and then you’re like, ‘How did it get to be three hours later, right? So I can use that elephant in the room, or the, you know, the sharing a short. Quip, it’s just enough to get me over the edge, break the ice once, and then eventually the conversations really start to flow. And guess what? If the conversation dies a slow, painful death, I just find another person and I say the same thing.

Camille Virginia: Exactly.

Zack Arnold: I love that idea of the of the short quip, and like, kind of like, all right, so we’re all thinking it right, but somebody’s got to say it, it’s going to be me, right, but then those five other people remember the person that brought it up, so that’s a way to make yourself memorable in a very simple and quick way.

Camille Virginia: Yes,

Zack Arnold: So the last thing that I want to talk about, this is going to deviate a little bit from just this idea of starting a conversation or being authentic, getting prepared, and we may not be able to dedicate as much time to this, because I think this is essentially, you know, the biggest part of the process, and we can apply this to both dating, we can apply to networking, building relationships, it’s really the same question for all of them, but How do you close the deal, like we’ve done all this, but How do we actually make sure this leads to something?

Camille Virginia: Well, that’s actually the easy part, when you’ve created a meaningful connection with someone when you shown up fully present, not distracted by your phone, or asking great questions that you care about. Are you listening to the responses? People naturally want more of you. Like, just the things that I listed there in the past six seconds are gifts to people, and they’re not – you can bet they are not getting those in most of the other, if any of the other areas of their life, so by simply giving those away, and again in a way that actually fulfills you at the same time, they’re going to naturally want more of you. It’s like, oh my gosh, this person is actually, you know, paying attention and ask great questions. I want to hang out with them again. That’s, that’s it. May be a conscious decision that they make. It may be subconscious of when are we getting together next, but that is a natural lead in to, hey, we should do that. I really enjoyed our conversation. Let’s get together, and you know, I want to know more about XYZ, or I’ve got this great coffee place you mentioned you like dark roast coffee or Peruvian food, or whatever. So use it as a reason to get together and continue the conversation, because you, you can bet if you had a great conversation with someone in that moment, there’s probably a lot more great conversations to be had between both of you later on,

Zack Arnold: Which is yet another reason I think the authenticity is so important, and talking about common interest is so important, because you alluded to something that’s like, oh, we talked about dark roast coffee, I know a great place, right, but imagine if you’re asking all these questions of somebody because you want to provide value and genuinely learn more about them, and you learn that they love a certain kind of food, and you’ve learned that they live in a certain part of town. Live impromptu in the conversation, you’re thinking, all right, so he likes this kind of food, he likes this part of town, he’s worked at that studio, I’ve worked at that studio before. Oh, four blocks down, there’s this great Mexican place. He says that he loves enchiladas. Hey, man, this is a great conversation. You know, I, you were just saying enchiladas, like, dude, there’s a great enchilada place that I’ve been to before. It’s like three blocks down from Universal Studios. What do you think? We just got together there and grabbed some done right, because so it’s not a matter of listen. I, this has been an excellent conversation. I’d like to give you a link to my demo reel. Here’s my, not that anybody hands out DVDs anymore, but I’ve done that before, way back in the day when I had no idea what I was doing. But you’re not being transactional, saying I’d love you to review my materials, or I’d love to take you out to coffee and pick your brain. You’re providing the value by understanding this is something they would really want to do anyway, so why not do it with you? Because you had a great conversation.

Camille Virginia: Yes, all of that fantastic advice.

Zack Arnold: So, we could do this, I would think, for at least, I don’t know, five, six more hours. You think

Camille Virginia: Totally,

Zack Arnold: Maybe cover 10% of what’s in your book. And the reason that I say that is, most books, there’s a lot of theory, and then there’s a few action steps. At best, here’s a bunch of theory, here’s some research. Here’s why this is important. End of the chapter. Here are three bullet point action steps. Your whole book should just be called Action Steps. There’s hundreds of pages of actionable things you can do step by step systematically to be better at building relationships and being authentic. So I want to emphasize to my audience, I think we’ve covered, I don’t know, 3% maybe 5% at best, and I feel like just this one hour conversation can change the game for somebody that’s not familiar with how to do in-person networking and building relationships, but I want people to go a lot deeper. So, tell people where they can find your new book, and more importantly, how they can get some of your free materials.

Camille Virginia: Yeah, thank you. So, my book is called The Offline Dating Method: How to Attract a Great Guy in the Real World. But, again, like Zack has been saying, don’t let that title fool you. It’s actually my Trojan Horse to get human connection skills into the hands of people who need it, starting with single females. So, like, 80% of the book is doesn’t matter your, your age, your gender, the gender you’re attracted to, it’s just people skills that anyone can use. I’ve had married people review my book and love it, men review it and love it. It probably won’t beat a dead horse, but anyway, so they can find that it’s actually available on Amazon right now. It comes out september 17, but it’s available for pre-order up until then, and that’s 2019 if you’re listening. Into this a little bit later, and also I do have a free gift. It’s three unusual icebreakers to use anywhere, and you can find that at my website, Master Offline dating.com forward slash optimize. And I’ll also include a bonus section of the book in there that you can get before it comes out.

Zack Arnold: Well, that’s awesome. I appreciate you offering that to my audience, and I just want to make it very crystal clear, not that I haven’t already, but the title, “How to Master Offline Dating. If you take the second half off of it, it’s exactly what we’re doing in my industry and other industries. Building relationships is dating. It might be with the same sex, and there might not be benefits afterwards. Well, there may be. You never know what happens, but you’re not looking for those extra benefits, but other than that, what you’re doing is offline dating leading to the marriage of collaborating together on a project. So, there’s nothing misleading about this title. It’s exactly what you do when you network. You want to master the process of offline dating, which is exactly what you teach. So, for anybody that’s thinking I want more, she gave you the free guides, she gave you the free part of the book, for the love of God, for all that is holy. Please go to her free guides, because this stuff is really, really helpful, and trust me, we all need it, every single one of us, including me. So, Camille, it has been an absolute pleasure to have you back on the show once again. For anybody listening, I will provide a link to our first interview, so you have two full hours of this brilliance. So, Camille, thank you so much for prioritizing your time to be with me today, and to help my audience by sharing your expertise.

Camille Virginia: Thanks so much for having me, Zack. Always a pleasure.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Episode Credits

This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared and published by Elyse Rintelman. The original music in the opening and closing of the show is courtesy of Joe Trapanese (who is quite possibly one of the most talented composers on the face of the planet).