Zack Arnold

Let's create things that matter. Together.

How to Master “Offline” Networking at Live Events | with Camille Virginia

About Episode

Let’s face it…creative people like us are a bit weird. Being socially awkward is just part of the package. Sitting in a dark room for days at a time making cool stuff – piece of cake. But throw us into a large crowd and force us to speak to other human beings and it gets ugly fast. But networking is a necessary skill to master if you intend to thrive in your creative career because no matter how awesome your work, people can’t hire you if they don’t know you exist!

I honestly can’t think of more than a small handful of people I know in my entire industry who are natural at “offline” networking (for those of you who spend all of your energy on social networking online, offline networking is in that vast terrifying space called “the real world.”) So for all of the socially awkward introverts out there like me, I’ve brought in an expert at offline networking to help you break the ice and start building your list of quality connections like a ninja.

My guest in this episode is Camille Virginia, the founder of Master Offline Dating. She has a unique talent and incredible passion for creating instant, in-person connections and building authentic relationships. Her specialty is helping singles who are burned out with online dating and apps to find love in their own lives by providing the key skills to boost social confidence, create connection, and find lasting commitment in the real world.

Trust me…the skills she teaches in the dating world are equally as applicable to professional networking settings because the key to networking is building meaningful relationships. I highly recommend taking notes and trying out a few of these approaches at your next networking event.

Transcript

Zack Arnold: I’m here today with Camille Virginia, who is the founder of Master Offline dating.com and this is going to be a bit of an experiment, because generally on a show called Optimize Yourself for Creative Professionals, I wouldn’t talk about something like dating, but you and I met through one of our online business groups, and we have really hit it off, and I’m really, really interested in the way that we can apply all of your knowledge about building relationships to a little bit more of a professional setting. So, on that note, I wanted to thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to chat with me.

Camille Virginia: Yeah, well, thanks for having me, Zack. This is going to be applicable to everyone, even beyond dating, my passion is just human connection. So, I’m excited for this,

Zack Arnold: And that’s the whole reason I wanted you on here, was to talk about human connection, because if somebody were to go to your website right now, especially if a guy were to go to your website right now, they’d be like, why is he doing a podcast interview with somebody that’s trying to get women to date guys in the offline world, like, what does that even mean, but what I’m trying to show is that there’s just some basic universal skills that people can learn to build deeper, more meaningful relationships, whether it is on a personal level, whether it’s on a romantic level, or whether it’s on a professional level, and somebody that understands how to build a relationship can do it in just about any setting, and from what I hear, you are extremely good at what you do.

Camille Virginia: Ah, thank you. Well, it’s funny, because I wasn’t always that way. I grew up pretty shy, and I’m still an introvert, which no one believes until, well, I actually just got back from a long weekend in New York, and I’m like, introverted batteries depleted. It was amazing time, but you know, I need to recharge by myself, which, you know, is the definition of an introvert. But yeah, growing up pretty shy, I just, I got sick of it, and I was like, God, how can I get over this? This is ridiculous. I mean, to the point where it was uncomfortable to go out to the grocery store and talk to the cashier. I just was socially awkward, and so I kind of taught myself over the years, and found this passion for human connection, and I was just like, “Wow, this, this is amazing, you know? Everyone should have these skills, and in the process, I just happened to get asked out by a lot of men in random places, which is how it turned into offline dating, but really, you know, people come to me, especially women who are my target market, and they think the problem is online dating burnout, but really, what it is is they just don’t know how to meet guys in the real world, and the same skills that you use to meet guys in the real world are the same skills that can apply to anyone who’s listening right now, which is how to authentically connect with people.

Zack Arnold: Well, and then the first thing that comes to my mind is, have we really come this far that the idea of somebody saying, wait, what do you mean by offline dating? I don’t get it. Like, I know that you get asked that question because I asked it, and I was like, well, I don’t get it. What do you mean you’re teaching? Offline dating, what is that? And you’re like, uh, that’s when people meet in the real world without apps, and you’re like, oh right, we used to do that, didn’t we? And here’s the funny thing, I met my wife online, and that was during the days of online dating, when people say, but aren’t you worried they’re like an ax murderer? Like, how do you know it’s safe? Like, it was a while ago, like now everybody does it that way, but it was right around the time when match.com had just started, and yes, I’m getting that old, but the reason that I had chosen to go the online dating route is I was working two full-time jobs, seven days a week, for about 14 hours a day combined between the two of them, and I said I don’t see any human beings ever, because I was working from home by myself, so I didn’t have any personal connection with human beings ever, and I was in my early to mid 20s, and I said, well, I should probably get out there and find a way to meet somebody, but I’m extremely introverted, like you said, and it’s funny because most people say the same thing to me, like there’s no way you’re introverted, well, why do you think I’m talking to you from behind a microphone right now? You know, but it’s, it’s interesting, because, like, you and I, we met in person at the first time at a conference a month or two ago, and I got the same reaction from people over and over, like, I can’t believe that you’re introverted and you’re so outgoing and so good at conversation, and I didn’t say this to everybody, but it’s something that you definitely understand as well. It’s skills that you have to acquire as an introvert, and one of my theories is, and I’ll let you go into this much further, but very quickly, one of my theories is that the reason that people like you and I can become good at something like this is we have to learn it as a skill, whereas if you’re extroverted, you just kind of do it, but you don’t understand how to break it down into why you’re good at it. So, because it’s something that you do for a living, I would love to start breaking down for the people that are extremely introverted, which I’m guessing is the vast majority of people listening, because I have those working in creative industries that choose the small dark rooms by themselves for a reason, like me, but then they say, well, I’m just not good at networking, I’m just not social, I’m introverted, but to me that’s not an excuse. So, let’s start actually breaking down, how can somebody introverted like us become more social and become good at networking?

Camille Virginia: I love this question. You’re gonna have to cut me off, Zack, because I feel like I could talk about this forever, but I think you’re absolutely right. I think extroverts, because they get energy from other people, they’re constantly putting themselves out there and connecting with people naturally, because they’re trying to fulfill that need to be around people. That’s how they recharge their batteries, so that means they’re practicing these little tips and techniques that they don’t even know they’re practicing, they’re just looking to fill that need to recharge your batteries, and so as an introvert, we recharge alone, and so when we do connect with someone, it’s a lot fewer and far between. If it’s, God forbid, a bad experience, we’ve now terrified ourselves, and we’re now like, oh my god, I knew it. Talking to people is bad, it’s it leads to awkwardness, and then we don’t do it again for like two years, you know, and so it’s like the opposite of actually practicing the skills that the extroverts are, meanwhile just practicing without knowing. So I would say for me as an introvert, it’s about how to authentically connect with people, and so what I mean by that is it’s not looking at strangers as strangers, like one of the first tips that I tell my private female clients who work with me is talk to everyone like they’re a friend already and that you already know them, and I do this all the time, and I grew up in, well, my mom’s generation – it’s kind of funny, she was born in the generation where you know you’re very polite and you’re like, oh, hi, sir, like, oh, I’d like the salad, please, and you like kind of put on this different persona for people that you don’t know, and that’s just kind of what you know, that’s what people did back in the day, and so I grew up with this, and I was like, why am I, why does my voice go up an octave when I talk to people I don’t know, what is that, and so I just started talking to people like I would turn to my best friend and ask a question. I’d turn to a person behind the counter and ask the same question, and just using the same tone to just have a meaningful connection, even about, you know, like a scarf at a department store or something, realizing you don’t have to like ramp up this energy to like go into battle of conversation every time you step foot out the house, but it’s really like, you know, oh no, I’m just gonna actually, you know, go about my business and maybe chat with a few people just as comfortably as I would with a friend, and and break down that barrier. So to answer your question, I’d say that’s a good first step, is like look at everyone like a friend you haven’t met yet, and talk to them like you already know them

Zack Arnold: Well. I can guess, and I don’t know this for sure, but did you grow up in the Midwest?

Camille Virginia: I didn’t, actually. Portland, Oregon.

Zack Arnold: Oh, well, not the Midwest. So you were in the Northwest,

Camille Virginia: The northwest, yeah,

Zack Arnold: The Northwest, but still definitely not like a big city,

Camille Virginia: Yeah,

Zack Arnold: Especially you know, back 2030 years ago, the whole raising an octa. And like, oh, hello, sir, like that’s just very, very Midwestern, because I grew up in the, you know, the deep woods of Northern Wisconsin, and there’s no doubt that there is a very specific accepted tone of voice when you’re in a store or meeting somebody, and it feels very.. it.. I don’t want to use the word fake, but it’s definitely, it’s, it’s just kind of a thing, yeah, it’s very formal, it’s the way that you interact with people that you don’t know, but yes, you can very much take that into more of a professional situation, a networking situation, a romantic dating situation, and it just feels very inauthentic, and I think that authenticity is something that people really don’t see the true power of, and it sounds like that’s something that you talk about, is just trying to find a more authentic version of yourself to introduce to people.

Camille Virginia: Definitely, yeah, it’s because that’s what makes us comfortable as introverts, is like, you know, extroverts, I feel like, have social energy to spare, so if they want to, like, talk to one person one way and talk to another person the other way, they’re like, you know, charging up from that, and introverts were like, can I just be myself and just, you know, talk to this person and ask this question, and when you give yourself permission, or hear us talking about giving you permission to do that, and just connect with people the same way you would a friend, because you know, we get energy from being around friends, right? You know, and so if you can apply that to strangers, that will help not deplete you so much. If anything, like after the conference that we met at Zack, I was like, because there were so many great people I was connecting with there, I.. I could not sleep for like the next couple nights after the conference. I was just completely charged, I was like overcharged, my battery was overcharged, my social conversation battery, and when you get those quality conversations with people, even as an introvert, I feel like that’s what happens.

Zack Arnold: It can happen. I will say that if we’re talking about the spectrum of introvert to extrovert, I’m probably further down the introvert spectrum than you are then, because I had the same fantastic, engrossing, energetic, engaging conversations, and I was spent for like a week. I was exhausted. I’m like, oh my god, I can never be in a large room with 100 people I don’t know ever again. I just can’t do it anymore. But it was so worth it, and I would do it again, but I was just wasted, and people will ask me a lot to like, well, hey, are you going to this event? Or, like, we have these huge networking events in the film industry and just the entertainment industry in general, where people come from all over the world, and they’re like, I never see you with those. I’m like, yeah, there’s kind of a reason for that. It’s because it just takes everything out of me, and it takes me two to three weeks to really get back to normal after I do an event like that, like it takes me two days to recuperate from doing, like, you know, Sunday dinner with my wife’s family, because they’re all extroverts and they love being around each other, and I mean, I love my wife, and I love her family to death, but when we first got together, it was like three or four nights a week doing family dinners, and like, I just.. I can’t survive, I just can’t do it, I physically can’t do it. So, yeah, so I definitely understand getting the energy from being around other introverts, which I know sounds paradoxical, or you know, like an oxymoron to some people, but you really can if you find other introverts like you, you can still build that energy off of each other, and that’s kind of one of the things that I wanted to go into a little bit deeper, because if we’re going to talk a little bit more about how to take these skills that you use in building personal relationships and translate it to building professional relationships, in my industry almost everybody is an introvert. You don’t choose to sit behind a computer in a small, dark room and say you love it if you’re an extrovert, because extroverts would wither and die doing what we do, and I know that, because I see it every day, because the extroverts are the directors, are the producers, are the executives, and they feel like that they’re being led into a prison cell when they come to work with us. I’ve actually heard conversations, like in the cafeteria, like for example, right now I’m doing a TV show and working at Universal Studios on the lot, and I overheard a conversation with what I presume was network executives, based on the way that they were dressed, just talking about, like, oh my god, I just got out of the edit suite, like, oh, it’s just.. it’s so boring. I just could not wait to get out of there, like it’s just so slow. It’s like watching paint dry. I’m like, yeah, we love it, you know. So, I guess what I want to do is just go a little bit deeper into understanding if I’m going to approach somebody. Let’s just say, right now we’re still talking about kind of a personal setting. We’re not going to. I want to go more into the professional setting. I actually want to reach out to experts, build relationships with experts, you know, get noticed to get jobs. But for now, I just want to help people break the ice. So, the first step is I just, I want to be more authentic and not feel like I have to be fake. But now what?

Camille Virginia: So, now what? So you. To find along the authenticity lines that we’re talking about, you need to find something that you genuinely connect with, or are thinking, or are curious about. So you need to stay in alignment with this authenticity vibe that we’re talking about. You can’t just be like, “Oh, great, great sunshiny day, isn’t it? You know, if you don’t give a crap about the weather, like, don’t go there, don’t introduce a subject that you think is socially acceptable, because it’s socially acceptable, and you don’t give to whatever’s about it, you know, so the way to get to meaningful conversation and to get those introverted batteries, at least not depleted or possibly pre-charged is to introduce a meaningful topic, and this could be as simple as, well, here I’ve got a story. So I do wing women sessions in Chicago, where I live, and so that means I take out my single lady clients, and we practice their social skills, you know, either during the day or at night, whatever they want to work on, and I was doing it at a grocery store with one of my clients, and a woman was in the grocery store handing out hummus samples, and she was, you know, just passing around to people, she’s like, “Hey, this hummus is really good, here, try some, it’s part of my culture, immediately, because I love different cultures and traveling and people, I honed in on the it’s part of my culture, and I went up to her and I said, Oh, cool, what is your culture? and she said, Oh, I’m from Lebanon, blah blah blah, and immediately this is just when this was around when the travel restrictions came out, and I asked her if those have impacted her, she started tearing up and talking about her family in Lebanon and missing a wedding. Anyway, I went to that thing that I was naturally curious about, and within 30 seconds I had this woman crying, because I was connecting on a deep level with her, because I genuinely cared about it. So it’s those thoughts that we have in our head, of, you know, could be as simple as a, oh, I love that woman’s shoes, I wonder where she got them. It’s taking it out of our head and asking that person, and it’s not hesitating. So, I say, take it from the mind to the mouth quickly. If you hesitate, you’re going to overthink it. It’s going to come out not naturally. And then you’re going to be like, see, I knew it, you know, awkward situation. But really, if you just make it a habit of those thoughts that pop in your head of, oh, I love your shoes. Where’d you get them? Or, oh, what’s your culture? And just saying those immediately, that’s when you can start getting into an interesting conversation and connecting authentically. So, don’t start it out on something just because you think the topic is socially acceptable. If you don’t want to talk about, again, the weather or something like that.

Zack Arnold: Well, and I think the key, as well, to maintaining that authenticity is not having a script or not having an agenda, or saying, well, every time I start a conversation because I’m awkward, because I’m introverted, here are the first three things I’m going to say to start that conversation, so I can be prepared, and I feel awkward. You’re going to look awkward if you are trying not to be awkward,

Camille Virginia: Exactly. Yeah, with that, it sounds scripted, you know. There’s little people are very much in tune with nuances, and so when you’re coming from a place of nervousness and scriptedness, and let alone that that script may not exactly fit the situation that you’re in, that script that you rehearsed a lot, it’s going to come across as not natural. So immediately you’re starting off on a note that isn’t natural, and it’s, it’s harder to recover and get into a natural, comfortable conversation when you start off like that. So, just be authentic and kind and curious from the first word out of your mouth,

Zack Arnold: But it has to be genuinely curious. You can’t just say, well, hey, those are great shoes, and you can tell on your face that you don’t give a crap about somebody’s shoes. That feels like a rehearsed line that maybe it is socially acceptable to compliment somebody on their clothes, but if it’s not genuine curiosity, people are going to sense that, like everybody has a sensor, and yes, I know that I just got beeped, but you can figure out what that, what that word was, but we all had these bs sensors that we may not even consciously realize we have, but we can tell if somebody is not being authentic and they’re just saying something to start the conversation, and you have to be really, really careful not to be overly rehearsed, because you’re awkward, which is the way that I used to be, is I figured, well, I’m so overly prepared, and I’m type A, and I, you know, do all these other things that I’m so prepared, so I need to prepare for my networking situations, and it trusts me, it doesn’t work, it just does not come off well. And what I really learned, this is probably one of the most valuable things that I learned, and you can agree or disagree, and hopefully you’ll agree, and you can go into much further detail about how to actually do this, but what I really learned is that the best way to get somebody to warm up to you and to like you quickly is to get them to talk about themselves. Yep, so would that, would that be an accurate assessment?

Camille Virginia: Absolutely, yeah. People are people, love to talk about themselves, and if you think about it, even like. In today’s world, especially, I feel like we’re so focused on ourselves, you know, and I know we’ve always been that, and we’re also wired that way as humans to think that when we walk into a room, everyone’s looking at us, meanwhile everyone else in the room thinks that everyone’s looking at them, you know, so it’s just keeping in mind that, you know, not, not everything perception is not necessarily reality, so that’s where I think coming in with asking genuine questions will go a long way, because I mean, isn’t it also easier as introverts to ask questions? You know, we don’t necessarily like the attention in the spotlight to be on us unless we’re really comfortable around people, so as you’re practicing these skills and meeting people, asking questions is such a safe way to connect with people, because the attention is not on you. When you learn to ask really good questions, it’s very powerful, you know, especially unique questions, like, again, oh, that pattern on that scarf looks like my Scottish ancestors plaid, and the person’s like, ‘Oh my god, I’m Scottish too. It’s my clan’s platter. I don’t know, you know, connecting something random over that, and really getting the other person to open up a little bit, which will make it more comfortable for you to open up, and it makes them feel great in the process.

Zack Arnold: And it’s a really great point, actually, that I hadn’t thought about it, but as an introvert, questions are your best friend, because the more questions you ask, the less you have to talk yourself, right? And you don’t feel like you have the pressure on you to continue that conversation. So, if I wanted to genuinely get somebody to talk about themselves and start this conversation, and I don’t even really know how to do that, what are some tips to help me get people to genuinely and conversationally and casually start talking about themselves.

Camille Virginia: I would say ask great questions, and this is, you know, tying it back to what we were talking about, of that natural curiosity, not introducing quote socially acceptable topics that are also really super boring, like the weather, and it’s asking a good question, and people love answering good questions, like the conference that you and I met at, Zack. The business around that provides questions that you should ask that elicit good testimonials in surveys, and it’s interesting questions, because people like answering interesting questions. You know, when you ask someone, How’s your day going, they’ve heard that 20 times already, it’s boring. No one wants to answer that stupid question, but if you say something like, “Wow, that breed of dog looks really unique. What kind of dog do you have there? That is something that I mean, if they have a unique breed of dog, you bet they’re going to love answering that question, and it’s probably things that questions that a lot of people, you know, think in our heads when we walk by, like, oh, it’s really interesting, breed a dog, I wonder what it is. 99% of people don’t ask it, so it’s just that natural curiosity of, like, you’re a dog person, they’ve got a unique dog, bridge that gap by asking about their dog. Now you guys are talking about a dog, which is something you both care about, and the other person is getting to share about something that they clearly love, so it’s a lot more comfortable.

Zack Arnold: Well, and I think that another thing that kind of popped into my mind is that when you would mention, oh, they get asked the same question over and over and over. If we transition into kind of the more professional networking realm, as opposed to I just want to talk to the lady at the counter that has hummus, but if we’re in the more professional realm, one of the questions you’re going to ask and be asked over and over and over and over is, so what do you do right? And when you first go to an event, you know, you say it a few times, you start to kind of work on your elevator pitch, but then by day three you’re like, oh my god, if I have to answer the what do I do question one more time, I think my head’s going to explode. At least an introvert, that’s the way that I feel. But when somebody comes up to me with a question that I haven’t heard yet, I’m like, oh my god, thank you. A real conversation.

Camille Virginia: Yes, yes, I love that you said that. So, going to the professional realm, you know, it’s interesting. We talk about B2B businesses, B2C businesses. Businesses are really pp, it’s people to people, you’re talking to people, no matter who you’re networking with, who you’re selling to, there’s a person on the other end of that line, so when you can use these skills to connect, they will help you in all aspects of your life, especially, you know, professional, so with that tying it back to what you just said, ask me a slightly unique, but still professional question of the other person, like, so what’s your favorite part about what you do? Make it into a game, like, have fun with it, like you said. If you get asked at a networking event 20 times, what do you do when you get a question like, so tell me the best part about what you do, and I’m going to guess what you do, that is fun, like you’ve just injected fun into the question, what do you do, and you’re still going to find out. Maybe it takes an extra like 30 seconds or a minute, totally time well spent to be memorable. That person is going to remember you, they’re going to think that you’re really interesting, because when you ask interesting questions, people perceive you as interesting, I. Um, you’re going to make them feel good, because you’re asking them a question that isn’t the same that the past 20 people just asked them, and you’re still going to get the answer to your question.

Zack Arnold: Well, and I think that one of the best indicators of whether or not you’re doing this correctly is if the reaction is immediate and they just kind of start talking about something that maybe doesn’t sound scripted but sounds somewhat rehearsed, they’ve probably given this response 10 times, but what I always love to do, kind of like you said, I love that you’re gamifying it. If I can get somebody to respond with, oh man, that’s good question. I don’t know, I’m gonna have to think about that for a second. It’s like, yes, right, because, like you said, that yeah, exactly. Then you’ve done something more unique, and then they, you can just see their body language and their facial expression shift, and they’re like, ooh, this is going to be a good conversation, let me think about this and make it a good one, as opposed to, yes, well, I do blahity blah, and you know, blah blah, and I’m here for this reason and that reason, and then it just kind of, especially by the end of an event, you just feel the sense of exhaustion, so if you can think to yourself, what can I do to make them respond with the oh geez, I don’t know the answer to that, like that’s that’s a good thing. If you’re thinking, oh, that’s awkward, it’s not. It means that you’re doing something that will make you memorable, and that’s always the key. And what I also want to talk about now that we’re kind of more in the professional networking realm is obviously you want to make yourself memorable, but I think one of the mistakes that people make is they try to be not even memorable, but they just try to think it’s all about quantity. If there are 600 people at this event, I need to make sure that 575 of them walk away with my business card, so I’ve got to talk to everybody and give them my card and make sure they know who I am, and give them my elevator pitch about what I do for a living, and that’s the worst way to do it.

Camille Virginia: Absolutely, yeah, that I think is a safer way to do it. You can, you know, be talking to people, and then be like, oh, gotta hit my 575 quota onto the next person, and if you’re uncomfortable talking to people, that’s kind of a well, I’m doing my job, I’m putting myself out there, but not, not too much in situations. I would say I’m trying to think of a situation where this is not the case, but like quality connections over quantity, and just trust you’re going to meet the people who you need to, and having those quality, deep conversations with people, and authentically connecting one of those is going to trump 575 surface level conversations. I guarantee you, it’s going to be more fulfilling for you. You are going to be memorable with that person. That person may be in your life for the rest of your life because you chose to start things off with a great question, and you, you were able to go there emotionally and connect with them, and you know, so what if that person is the most powerful person in the room? That’s okay. Trust that you’re going to meet the right people. If you have fun in the process, which is having these more quality conversations over quantity, you’re going to be putting out the, the, the right vibe, the energy that you need for whatever is supposed to come out of that conference, whereas if you just look at it like a checklist, which you can’t do that to people, as much as I wanted to do that, you know, growing up, and be like, oh well, I’m I’m dating, I’m putting myself out there, but you know, I wasn’t really connecting with people, you can go home at the end of the day, pat yourself on the back, but you’re not going to get the results that you want, so if you actually want the results, you got to do the work, which is having those quality conversations over the quantity.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and if you’re really making it your intention to go into a conversation with quantity and not quality, people see that. So, really, the question is, do you want 575 people to have your business card, not remember who you are, or remember, oh yeah, that was that guy that, like, kept looking around the room while I was talking to him, and he really wasn’t listening to me, just because he seemed like he had somewhere else to be. Even if you don’t consciously realize it, if your agenda is to meet as many people as possible and get your business card out there and give your pitch to everybody, everybody sees that, and they know that, and they’re like, well, you’re really not interested in me, you’re just trying to reach as many people as possible, so now you have 575 people who don’t give a crap and have no interest in

Camille Virginia: Your business card.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, exactly. And even if they do have business cards anymore, I mean, now at this point it’s so.. it’s.. it’s weird because, like, the event that you and I went to, people didn’t even have cards.

Camille Virginia: Yeah,

Zack Arnold: The idea is that you need to build enough of a relationship that somebody pulls out their phone and says, hey, give me your number so I can text you, or let’s be friends on Facebook, but there’s there’s more of a barrier of entry, like I’m not just going to be friends with somebody on Facebook unless I feel like we had a meaningful connection, so you really have to think to yourself there’s a there’s a larger bar of entry nowadays where I don’t want to just give them my card, I have to get to the point where I want both of us to get our phones out and exchange our information.

Camille Virginia: Totally agreed. Yeah, cards, cards are meaningless, like again, it’s that it’s that people connection that people want. They people want to be around people that they know, like, and trust, people that. Make them feel good, whether that’s professional, whether that’s romantic, whether that’s friendship, like in all aspects of our lives, it’s not like, you know, oh, I want meaningful friendships, but very surface level professional contacts, like no people want to be able to know that, you know, they have something in common, or you had a great conversation, or you weren’t the person who was just shoving your business card down their throat while looking around for the other 10 people that they wanted to tick off their list, so yeah, it’s it’s leading with being present in the moment too, is what’s coming to mind as we’re talking about this, like whenever you talk to someone, it’s being present in the moment, and again, it could be 30 seconds, it could be 30 minutes, I went to a party a couple of weeks ago, I knew one person who invited me. I ended up having a five hour conversation with a guy I just met, and that to me was just amazing. You know, like we were just in the zone, off in the corner, talking about stuff, and that kind of thing is horribly possible as an introvert, but you have to, you have to let it happen, you have to go there, and then I’m telling you, you’re going to reap the benefits, you’re going to reap the rewards, you’re going to have incredible connections coming away from interactions that just don’t even seem possible right now with people you’ve known for years. You can get it in an instant, or at least in an evening.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and the goal, really, in my opinion, what I’m always hoping I can do in any interaction that I have with somebody, whether it’s in a networking event, if it’s working with it professionally, if it’s personally. What do I want them to come away from the conversation with? What feeling right? And if I succeeded, what I want them to say is, man, I feel like I was the only person in the room, like he wasn’t talking to anybody else, like he was, it was just all about me at that moment. That’s what I’m trying to do, and it’s a skill that I’ve had to learn how to acquire, and I’m still acquiring it, and still learning, and getting better. But if somebody were to, like, let’s say that you and I have a conversation, and then somebody else asked you later on, like, well, you know, I saw you talking to Zack over there, what was your reaction, and you said it’s like I was the only person there, right? Like he wasn’t taking out his phone, he wasn’t looking around the room. It’s like I was the only person that he was talking to. That’s the experience that I want to give somebody to really make them feel like I gave them everything that I have in that moment. And you can’t do that if your checklist is to get to as many people as possible. You, like you said, you have to be intentional about it, and one of my strategies, and this is not a strategy that I devised, it’s just a strategy that I’ve learned, is that you have to go into a networking situation prepared. You can’t just say, “Well, I’m going to show up and I’m an introvert and I’m going to stand against the wall. You’ve got to prepare in advance. So, what are some ways that somebody that’s an introvert that’s not so great at networking that they can actually prepare themselves for a networking event?

Camille Virginia: Well, I would say to go in with the mindset of you’re an interesting person who gets the privilege of talking to you, and so it’s reversing the perspective that I think a lot of us have, of like, oh God, I need to find someone and latch onto them all evening, so that I can again check the box that, while I went to the networking event and put myself out there, but you know, but really didn’t put the extra step in to really authentically connect with people, which is what you know we ultimately all want to do, professional or otherwise, so have the mindset of, okay, cool. I’ve got some interesting things to talk about. I’m doing this cool stuff in my job. I’m really excited about this. Go in with those things about yourself, and then ask the questions of the other person that elicit those. So, maybe you’re working on this really cool new project, and you’re so excited about it. You’ve never done it before. You just learn this skill, and you’re now able to apply it. Now go into the networking event and ask a question like, so what’s this? What’s a new skill that you just learned, or what’s a skill that you want to learn? Because when you ask those questions of other people, I mean, 90 something percent of the time they’re going to ask you the same question back. It’s such an easy continuer of the conversation, is people asking the same question you just asked them after they’re done talking about it. So then you got to talk about this cool new skill you just learned about. Now you’re talking about something that fires you up that you’re excited about, and you also learn the same of the other person. So going in with remembering how interesting you are and how much you have to contribute, and that, okay? Who gets the benefit of talking to me, because I’m the person who asks great questions, and I’ve got things to share. Go in with that energy, and then just ask those questions that eventually, when they come back to you, you’ve got an interesting response for us. It’s kind of like working backwards, if that makes sense.

Zack Arnold: No, it does. It makes a lot of sense. I think that that’s a really great approach, where if there’s something that you really, really want to talk about, and you’re just standing there, like, why is somebody asking me about this? Like, I don’t want to talk about this. Can you just ask me this one question? And I’ve done this before, like, I’m guilty of this, where it’s like, I have this really cool thing, and I’ve got this whole great conversation ready to go. Can you please ask me about this one? Oh, you’re going. Ask me about this other thing. All right. Okay. Well, let me talk about it’s like that’s not their fault, that’s your fault, because you’re not prepared, and you didn’t think to yourself, well, this is the experience I’m going through, but you can’t make the mistake of just going in and starting to talk about yourself, because then people are going to be like, well, all they’re doing is talking about themselves, and I didn’t ask them any of this, so that’s really kind of rude, and I don’t want to talk to this person, but you can kind of be, you know, a little ninja-like and say, well, if I really want to talk about this thing, get other people to talk about it first. I think that’s a great, great skill to acquire and to think about in advance, because it really is all about preparing before, no different than anything else, where you wouldn’t just show up to your first day on a job not knowing what the job is, and networking is a job you need to go in and be prepared, and I think that for me one of the most profound things that I realized about networking is that if you go into it with a very specific goal, then you can come out of it with that goal and not feel like, well, I’m here. What am I supposed to do? I’m really awkward. I don’t like this. I’m going to leave. And what I learned is that if I can go into it saying I want to come out of this situation, and I want to walk away with three potential meaningful relationships – not 575 people get my business card – but if I walk away from this weekend, and I’ve made three good relationships that I can build on for years to come. I’ve been successful, and that completely changes the way that you approach every single conversation.

Camille Virginia: Yep, totally. I like that a lot. It’s like setting that intention before you go into something, and then surprising yourself with how that’s actually going to be fulfilled. You know, go in with the goal, and then let however you achieve that goal be what it will be, as long as you’re putting out the energy and using at least, you know, a couple of the tips that we’ve talked about in the podcast today. You’re going to meet that goal, you’re going to exceed that goal. I give goals like that to my female clients. I have a couple female clients who love going to singles events, so I say, all right, your goal is to connect meaningfully with four different people. Every time they go, they blow that goal out of the water, they connect with like 15 people, because it’s actually, it’s kind of addictive. Zack, honestly, it’s.. I found that, you know, the more that I’m able to hone these skills and connect with people, I’m like, God, this is really fun. Who else can I connect with? How much lady? Get over here, you know. And I mean, it makes sense, right? The more we practice something, the better we get. The better we get at something, usually the more we like it. So just, just keep going, try different things. If you feel awkward the first time you do it, great, you’re probably doing it like you’re probably feeling the same feeling everyone else who did it the first time felt, because you know it’s, it’s, you can’t just wake up and have mastered a skill, it just takes, takes practice, but it’s what you do after that, and keep, like, the keep putting yourself out there part that will help you get good at doing all this.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and the key, again, I know that we’ve probably already said this already, but the key is understanding that it’s a skill, and not allowing that script in your mind that says I’m just an introvert, I’m just not social, I’m just not good with people. You let that script run over and over and over, then you’re not going to be able to get better at it. But if you do look at it as a skill and say, well, you know what, I’m not good at playing basketball right now, but that’s because I never play it. Like, of course, you’re going to be crappy playing a sport if you never practice it, but if you go out and practice for three hours a day, you might not be Michael Jordan, but you’ll be decent at it. And networking is no different, but I didn’t understand that. For me, it was always about an identity. My identity is I’m antisocial. My identity is people don’t like talking to me in social situations because I’m boring, because I’m not good at conversation. I’m just not good with people. Therefore, I’m not going to be around people, and that was really detrimental to my success until I got to the point where I realized, well, if I get where I want to get, I have to learn to network and develop the skill, and have gotten to the point where I kind of enjoy it sometimes. Maybe I’m not quite at the point where I’m craving more like you are. Maybe I will be someday, but I’m at the point now where people are genuinely shocked when they find out that I’m an introvert, which to me says that I must be doing something right, because they’re not seeing that like inside there’s still a sense of awkwardness and a sense of discomfort. But even at the event that you and I were at, I really almost did get to the point where it was kind of like this idea of you fake it till you make it. I would forget that I’m an introvert. I was like, wait, who was that guy just having that conversation? That was me, like I don’t do that, but it was, and it was almost got to the point where I’d fooled myself, and that can be done.

Camille Virginia: Yeah, totally. And also, you know, like, you mentioned the introvert spectrum. I’m a hardcore introvert. I will hole up for, like, I’ve got five days blocked off around Thanksgiving to go ahead, stand on my business. I am ecstatic. So I love that side too. But you can get to the point where, yeah, maybe you do enjoy it, and it sounds like you know you’re. You’re somewhere in between of not enjoying it and getting energy from it, but that’s okay, you know. Who knows? Like I say, go forth and find out where you are on the introvert spectrum. Don’t let it be, you know, don’t tell yourself where you are, and like you said, have that script running in your head of, well, I’m an introvert, I don’t talk to people. No, all I do with clients is help them bring who they are around their friends and family and people they’re comfortable with. I help them bring that to the rest of the world. So I challenge listeners to find out where are you really on the introvert spectrum, because as you said, Zack, this is a skill. So once you start learning these skills, you know, see where you authentically fall on that spectrum because it’s like an athlete, like you, like you said with the basketball analogy, you know, how do world-class athletes know that they’re world-class athletes until they start trying and see how, how much their mind and their body can perform at that’s where they are in the spectrum, not how they are, you know, when they woke up and they weren’t practicing in their sport or their skill yet. It’s like, how far can we take ourselves where we’re meant to go on the introvert spectrum, on the athletic spectrum, you name it. But find that out.

Zack Arnold: Well, speaking of skill sets, there’s another skill set that we’ve kind of talked about a little bit, but now I really want to break down the skill set, and I know that as somebody that deals with offline dating, that I don’t know this for a fact, but I’m going to guess that this is going to be one of your specialties. We’ve talked about how we can generate meaningful questions, meaningful conversation, get people to talk about themselves, but I know for me, in a professional setting, especially in a personal setting, like what I am the worst at, and still horrible at learning how to do is breaking the ice, because you can’t walk up to somebody in the middle of a conversation and say, so what skill set would you like to learn next? You’re going to be a weirdo, you still have to break the ice and just do the whole hello thing and warm up the conversation, and then after 30 seconds, a minute, two minutes, then you can start the whole bit that we’ve talked about with getting into deeper, meaningful conversation, but I am horrible at breaking the ice at walking into other people’s conversations and not feeling like I’m just a stalker standing there listening. So, how do I break the ice?

Camille Virginia: So, with that, so let’s use the example of what you said, walking up to a group of people at a networking event, and you’re trying to join, so with that, I would say, if I wanted to join a group, I would walk up to them and probably like stand there, listen to what’s being said, and insert myself into that conversation, because yeah, if you try to like go up to a conversation that’s already flowing and change flow by asking completely unrelated questions, that is going to be awkward, so I probably would come up and be like, ‘Hi, I’m Camille. And then, if they asked me questions, I would talk about start going with wherever they were taking that. If they didn’t, I would just.. I have now broken the ice by simply introducing myself, and now I’m listening into their conversation. Maybe I would say, ‘You know, Hi, I’m Camille. What are you guys talking about something as simple as that. Now you’re including yourself in the conversation, as opposed to showing up being the disruptor and trying to like change directions of the conversation, all of which is a lot of work and is not going to be fun in the process. I guarantee you, so include yourself in the conversation. How can you insert yourself into the flow of what’s already going on by simply, you know, saying your name and saying what are you guys talking about.

Zack Arnold: Well, and one of the best tricks that I learned that’s really, really helped me, and it’s with group conversations is going to be somewhat different than with individual conversations. But if we’re, let’s say, that we’re talking about a group of four or five people that are, you know, having their, they have their little circle, they’re chatting, they’re drinking, and I’m wandering around, scoping the room, and saying, “Oh, where can I interject the conversation? One of the best tricks that I learned is that you can kind of walk by them a little bit. Here’s something that they say. It’s like, “Hey, I was just walking by. Did you just say that one thing that was really cool? Can you.. do you mind, you know, just explaining that a little bit more? I found that that’s that to me helps me feel more comfortable because they get to continue talking about what they’re talking about, but I’m showing interest in it, and then I feel like I’ve interjected myself on the conversation without interrupting it, so to speak.

Camille Virginia: I love that, and that’s actually, I suggest doing that at parties, so I suggest, and this can be applied to professional settings as well, like networking events, but when you go to a party by yourself, go to the kitchen. People are always gathered at the kitchen, or wherever the food is, and drinks. Take some time to, you know, grab some food, get a drink, listen to the conversations around you, and then do exactly what you said, like, you know, maybe they’re talking about a movie they just saw, and be like, “Oh, I haven’t seen that yet, is it good? And now you’ve just inserted yourself into the conversation in a very authentic, very casual way. Doesn’t have to be, you don’t have to think of the perfect question or introduce your most curious, unique question at this point, but just like a, oh, I heard about that. How is that? Or, oh my god, I saw that too. Did you love it, or did you hate. It, because people tend to be one way or the other, and now, like, it’s just so much more natural and authentic. It bridges that gap. That topic will die down eventually. Then, if there’s, you know, a pause, or you’re feeling confident about your question, answer your question. So, how do you guys know the birthday boy, or what brought, what’s your favorite part about the event so far, and just see who answers if it’s a group or if it’s a single person, you can use the same question.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and if you’re at a much larger event over several days, like if you’re just at something for a couple of hours, there’s going to be a limited number of things you can ask, like, hey, you know, have you used that piece of software that that guy just presented, or, you know, like, what project are you working on, that whatever it is, but if you’re at something that’s like these week-long marathons, like a really genuine question that you can ask is, like, you know, what, what’s the best presentation you’ve heard so far, or what, what presentation are you signed up for that you’re the most excited to see for the remainder of the event? These are kind of softball questions that are relatively easy to answer, but they’re still genuine, and they’re still interesting, and I’ve completely changed my itinerary in an event because of the answer to one of those questions, because I go in, I’m very prepared, and like, type A, oh, I go here at 4o’clock and here at 530 and I’ve got my whole itinerary set, and then I asked the question, I’m like, oh, that sounds really good, you guys are all going to that, screw it, I’m going to go with you. Right, then you start building those genuine relationships

Camille Virginia: And attending better speakers,

Zack Arnold: Right? And getting more out of the events.

Camille Virginia: Yeah,

Zack Arnold: And that’s something that I never used to do, because I was always mr. Type A. Well, this is what I signed up for, and I’ve already put my name on a piece of paper, so I can’t not show up, because they’re gonna know I’m not there. Like, nobody cares. Like, just go and have fun and get your money’s worth talking about. We have these group settings, and you can kind of slowly, casually interject yourself into the conversation. One caveat that I want to throw in there, and I’m sure that you would agree as well, is one of the worst things that you can do to interject yourself into a conversation is when it’s only two people and they’re in a deep conversation already.

Camille Virginia: Yep, that’s having been on both sides of that, as the person in the deep conversation, and as the person trying to join two-person deep conversation, that’s that’s really tough. So, I mean, unless you are, unless there’s a reason to do it, or you are an absolute master at conversation, of which I mean, I’m pretty, I’m pretty damn good at conversation, and I still wouldn’t do that unless I absolutely had to. It’s hard, you know. If you were in a deep conversation with someone, how would you feel about someone else coming, and maybe you’re sharing something very personal and private that you trust the other person with that information, but you don’t know who this person is that just came up to you, and all of a sudden the complete dynamics of the conversation change. So, yeah, with that, I mean, look at body language, look at you know, are they is one of them kind of feeling awkward, and they’re struggling to find things to talk about, or are they like leaning in towards each other, staring at each other’s eyes, using, you know, their hands to describe something that they’re passionate about. If they’re doing the latter, I would really recommend leaving them to it and go find another group.

Zack Arnold: Well, and it seems so obvious, you would be thinking, listening to this conversation. Well, duh, of course, I’m not going to go bother two people that are chatting, but what will often get in people’s way when I say people, I mean mine, because I’m like the master of interjecting into conversations I probably shouldn’t have, or at least I used to be, and I’ve learned my lesson, but because I would always have this, this goal, or this intention, and my intention was I really want to connect with this person, so it might be a speaker, it might be presenter, and they’re talking to one person, but I’m thinking, yeah, but my agenda is I want this person to get to know me, and I want to build a relationship with them, therefore I must get their attention, therefore I’m completely blind to the fact that they’re talking to somebody else right now.

Camille Virginia: Yeah, I think with that, Zack, like if you interrupt a speaker because that’s on your checklist and you want to talk to the speaker, and oh my gosh, they’re sitting right over there. If you force that, and you can feel it when it’s forced, like if you’re really, if you’re someone in tune with yourself, you know when you’re forcing yourself to do it, not in a good way of pushing your social comfort zone, but in a way where you’re like, oh my god, this is going to be painful. You’re going to make an impression on that person. It’s not going to be the impression that you want. They’re going to remember you as the person awkwardly standing there who disrupted a conversation that they were having with somebody else. So, I think with that, it’s letting go of the outcome, which is another thing that I teach my, my female clients, is you don’t know if he’s going to ask you out, you don’t know if you know it’s going to be you’re going to get xyz out of the conversation, but but release that outcome, go into that and go for quality being present in the moment, and trust that the outcome will happen, so same with a speaker that you want to talk to, don’t force it to the point where you’re like feeling like you’re going into battle and you know that something that what you’re about to do is probably not going to be received well, don’t do it, trust that you will see them again, or that you know maybe hang around and kind of keep your eye on them, and then as soon as the other person leaves you’re on it, you go over there and. Honestly, you’re not disrupting the conversation, but you’re, you’re now the only person that they’re talking to. But yeah, I hope, I hope that makes sense.

Zack Arnold: It totally makes sense. And it brought to mind, and this is totally going to be outing myself here, but I am a bit obsessed with the show Friends. I grew up on the show Friends. I’ve seen the entire series probably twice. I haven’t watched it for years and years, but I can quote most of it, and it brings to mind there’s a scene, I don’t remember what episode or what season, probably in the middle of the show, but there’s this episode where Ross and Rachel put together their celebrity list of like the five celebrities they’re allowed to sleep with, right, and one of them on Ross’s list was Isabella Rossellini, and she just happened to show up at the cafe one day, and you know, Rachel’s like, “Well, go up to her, like she’s on your list, I give you permission. So he goes up all awkward to her, and he’s like, “You know, he explained the whole list thing and showed her the list. It’s an amazing scene, and trust me, anybody listening, there’s a point to this, but he is trying to be all coy with her, and whatever, and she’s like, “Yeah, no, I don’t really kind of do you know things like that with random coffee house guys, and he looks at her and he’s like, yeah, but, but this is a once in a lifetime opportunity, and she looks at him, she’s like, well, yeah, for you, and that’s the exact same mindset that people have when they see an influencer, a speaker, an expert, they’re like, oh my god, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity, but it’s not for them. For you, you’re thinking, I have to go up and speak to them. This is my chance, but you can totally blow that chance because you’re not thinking about where are they in their journey. What’s their mindset? Their mindset is that there are 50 people that are approaching me at this event that are thinking this is their one chance to talk to me, but I’m talking to 50 people that want to talk to me. So you need to be the memorable one, and not in a bad way, because you can very much be the memorable one, but like you said, give the wrong impression, and that’s by interjecting yourself where you shouldn’t be interjecting yourself.

Camille Virginia: Yeah, or let alone being one of the 50 people who now has made this person feel awkward, you know, like I would say in that case it would be so much more powerful, and this goes back to the authentic and quality conversations and connections that we have been talking about for the whole episode, but send a follow-up email or a handwritten card or something after the event, do you know how many people do that? Approximately zero, and if you say something that simply calls out the situation of like, hey, I loved your talk that you gave, I wanted to connect with you, but there were always people around you, and I didn’t want to interrupt your other connections. But by the way, my name is Camille, and here’s why I wanted to connect with you. I had these questions for you. Would love to connect sometime, or I’ll be at the next event that you’re going to, and would love to connect there. And hey, if you’re free to grab a quick coffee beforehand, so we make sure to not miss each other this time, that would be awesome. That is going to be so much more powerful than you forcing your way to be one of the 50 people who tried to have a 32nd surface level conversation with this person that just you probably shouldn’t have tried to force, so think be creative too, think of ways like that. How can I take this situation where I want to connect with someone and keep it genuine and grounded, and then the options will start coming to you, and it may not be going up to them in that moment, it may be letting that moment go by, and trusting that you’re going to connect with them in a more authentic way when you’re meant to.

Zack Arnold: Well, speaking of meaningful conversation, when we were offline, right before we started recording, I told you that I always have this fear that I’m going to get onto a podcast interview, and I’m going to be unprepared and not have questions, and think, oh God, how am I going to even make this last 15 minutes. We’ve now gone just short of an hour, and I feel like we barely got started. That always happens to me, where I’m petrified, I’m never going to be able to finish a complete episode, and then I get to the hour mark, I’m like, yeah, but, but I’m on like halfway through the stuff I want to talk about, so on that note, I do want to be very, very respectful of your time, and I’m so incredibly grateful about all the different insights that you’ve brought, especially because you’re not really somebody that’s in my specific industry, and that brings such a fresh perspective to something that we hear about a lot, but coming from the world of offline real person dating and bringing it to a networking setting, for me, I’ve learned a ton of stuff from this conversation, and I’m hoping that other people have, so I very, very much appreciate your time. But before we go, I want to make sure if anybody is listening, especially those that might be of the single and or female persuasion, and they’re thinking, man, I bet Camille could really help me. How can they find you so you can help them?

Camille Virginia: I actually have an ultimate guide that I’m happy to share with your listeners, and they can find that at Master Offline dating.com backslash yourself, and it’s called Dating Up Detox: The Ultimate Guide to Getting a Date Without Going Online, but. But a lot of the skills, the icebreakers, conversation segues, things like that, that we’ve talked about are in that guide. So, even if you’re not a single woman who’s burned out with online dating, there’s a ton of tips, and I have lots of men on my email list who get value from that.

Zack Arnold: Well, if you have icebreakers and conversation segues, I’m downloading this, and I’m going to read this ultimate guide, because that’s the kind of stuff that I need to add to my toolset, and I’m happily married, so I mean, I can see tremendous value in this. So, I want to make sure we don’t discount anybody thinking, well, I’m already in a relationship, I don’t need this, but you’re always building relationships, may not be romantic, but you’re always building relationships, and these are skills that I believe everybody in the 21st century can acquire, so on that note, it has been an absolute pleasure. I’m glad that we were finally able to make this happen, and I really, really thank you for your time coming on today.

Camille Virginia: Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Zack. This was awesome.

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Zack Arnold

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How to Master “Offline” Networking at Live Events | with Camille Virginia

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