My guest today, Dan Erickson, is a writer, producer and creator of the hit Apple TV series, Severance. In this tell all conversation, Dan shares how his inspiration for creating Severance occurred while working a corporate job that included an unfortunate amount of experiences far too many of us can relate to (do windowless offices, featureless ceilings, and a strong desire to be able to forget about work as soon as you leave sound familiar?).
Dan’s amazing story of creating Severance has many twists and turns, and in this conversation we dive into them all. We talk about how he created the first draft of Severance in a matter of weeks, the seemingly endless obstacles and rejections Dan faced afterwards, and the ironic challenges with work-life balance that he experienced along the way to his success. We also dive into the underlying themes behind Severance, and how they could be far closer to our reality than we might expect.
This episode offers valuable insights into the making of Severance, as well as practical tips for anyone striving to find balance in their own life (I even put Dan on the Hot Seat to help him tackle his current work-life balance challenges). Whether you’ve seen the show yet or not (don’t worry, no spoilers!), I guarantee you’ll find Dan’s story as captivating as I did.
Dan Erickson grew up in Olympia, Washington with his parents Mark and Lynn, brother Matt and sister Hayley. He began writing plays and making movies with his siblings and friends at a young age, and went on to get his BA in English and Creative Writing from Western Washington University. He later attended NYU’s Tisch School, where he received a Masters in Dramatic Writing. Upon moving to Los Angeles, he delivered food and worked in a string of office jobs, all while conceiving and writing the original pilot for Severance. The script became the first TV pilot ever selected for the annual Bloodlist, which ultimately led to a creative partnership with Red Hour Productions, Endeavor Content, and Apple. Dan now splits his time between Los Angeles and New York, while sneaking back to his beloved Washington state every chance he gets.
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Zack Arnold: I'm here today with Dan Erickson, who is a TV writer and producer, the creator of Severance for Apple TV. And in September 2022, you are named to the Time 100 Next List, which features 100 emerging leaders from around the world who are shaping the future and defining the next generation of leadership. The reason I bring that up, we're gonna have a lot of conversations about leadership, show running, whether it's the story and theme of the show the story and theme of your life, work life balance, so many different things that we're going to talk about today. But first of all, I cannot express my gratitude enough for the fact that you are finally here recording this, I know for you as well, this was on my calendar today, this has been on my calendar for months in my head, so glad to finally make it a reality. It means a lot to me. Thank you.
Dan Erickson: No. I'm so happy to and it's been a bit indicative of how the process has been making our second season, it's been extraordinarily busy. And we've been working really hard. But yeah, I was finally able to get a little bit of a break where I was like, Okay, this is actually feasible now. And I've been wanting to come on and talk with you for a long time. So it worked out there was finally just a little parting of the clouds, and we were able to do it.
Zack Arnold: Well I appreciate it. Because it would be just as easier for you to say, hey, this sounds like a great opportunity, either. And I'm interested in I don't have the time, but you've been willing to endure the emails and the calendar links and all the other things to get here. So I'm very, very grateful for that. And for anybody, first of all, that's coming to this interview. They're like, Oh, what Severance for the love of God hit the pause button, stop this interview, go on Apple TV, and watch the first season of the show, I have written this in print, and it will now be in audio forever. And I stand by this statement, I am going to I'm literally going to die on this hill. If the show continues to be as consistently good as it is in its first season, you're going to be in the same conversation as Breaking Bad. I completely and totally believe that no pressure. But I totally believe that. That's how good the first season of your show was.
Dan Erickson: I mean, that's That's insanely high praise. So I really appreciate you saying that. Yeah, I mean, I It's funny, I think we knew when we were making it, that there was something special here. But you know, the fact that it has connected with people on the level it has and you know, I I've said this before, but I always assumed this show was going to be like five people's favorite show, you know, somewhere in the world. And you know, it's like the show that your most obnoxious friend won't shut up about I'm like, I would love to be in that category. But the fact that it's like actually become something that people are talking about, you know, on wide level and you know, to even be mentioned in the company of Breaking Bad is pretty incredible. So, yeah, it's it's a trip. It's been a real trip.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. And I want to I want to get into a little bit later in the show some of my theories about why it hit the way that it did. Based on the themes, this idea of work life balance is clearly why I gravitated to it or the extreme lack thereof. And I think that had you made the show 10 years ago, I think it would have been five people's favorite shows. But because the theme hit it exactly the right time, right during or the tail end of the pandemic, it's just the sense of blurring of work life balance completely disappeared. I think somatically that's one of the reasons that it hit. But before we get down that road, because we're definitely going to get there. This first part is seriously just from my own personal gratification. And I think a lot of people are gonna get a kick out of it. But I remember watching the first few episodes and just staring at the screen and I was like, Man, I wish I could have been in the room and they were pitching this. So here's my vision for the pitch and then I want you to share the reality. Here's my vision of the pitch. Alright, so you're in there you with the studio executives. So you guys have heard of The Office, right? Oh, yeah, we love The Office, one of our favorite shows. Okay, so just imagine that it's this kind of office, workplace comedy drama, but now it's set in the world of 2001 A Space Odyssey. Oh, okay. That's, that's really interesting. But it's like, totally, it's still a comedy. No, no, no, no, no, no. Now, imagine that you add The Shining. Okay, you're, you're kind of losing us. Okay, hold on a second. Hold on. So the star of the show is going to be the guy from Parks and Rec. Holy cow. You got Chris Pratt? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We got Adam Scott. Okay, so talk to us about the vision. Okay, so here's the best part. I brought somebody on board, director producer EP going to be a major part of this. So guy that played Derek Zoolander. Oh, wait, wait, wait. One more thing. I know you're really concerned about all this. The other director, we're there we're going to bring in because I mean, come on. Zoolander can't direct all the episodes. We're gonna bring another director that barely has any TV experience whatsoever, but has done some shorts and music videos. That's my vision for your pitch because you look at everything on paper. How did this ever come into existence? I found months have wanted to know what's the real story and the real pitch that got you where you are today.
Dan Erickson: I mean, that's you got it word for word. That was exactly what I came in with and I It's amazing. Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, of course, the you know, the the real version of that pitch you just gave happened over the course of about two years, you know, as these different elements fell into place. It's funny, I will say like going back to when I was taking it around town because because it ended up on Ben Stiller's desk after being put on this publication called the blood list, which is like a version of the blacklist that's just for horror and sci fi scripts. But But before that, I had just been taking it around. And it was very, I don't think I used Kubrick, I used Terry Gilliam mostly as the sort of the model for that, like, I would usually start at Brazil, and then go from there. And that was partially because like the version of it that I had, then. And I think you can actually find the script online. I don't know if it's supposed to be there. But
Zack Arnold: I'm glad you brought that up, because I actually discovered it today. And we're going to talk more about the version that was dated December 13, of 2014. But I'm going to stick a pin in that for a second.
Dan Erickson: Awesome. Well, that will it will Yeah, all that is to say that the original version was a little bit more Terry Gilliam and a little less, you know, 2001 and Ben over the course of it really grounded it more. I think that the original version I had was a lot. It was more heightened, dare I say sillier. And so I will say the one part of your pitch that I would have to call inaccurate? Was anybody objecting on any level to Ben's involvement, or even questioning? Because by that time, by the time we were doing it, he had already done Escape at Dannemora. And so it was like everybody we talked to was like, oh, it's like they had already had the Zoolander can direct a drama, Revelation. So I didn't have to go through that. Although I'm sure that Ben did or, you know, earlier on.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, that's, that's a whole other journey that I'm just fascinated by. Because I would imagine that at some point, Ben had people saying, well, we know who you are, clearly, and you're very successful, but directing and producing a drama, like at any level, that's a barrier that somebody has to overcome, which is, well, I believe I can do it. But I haven't proven that I can do it Ben Stiller or otherwise, that's hard for anybody to overcome that, which I would guess is another part of your journey that I definitely want to get into as well. But the heart of all of this for me, where I want to start, is the kernel of the idea. And the reason that I bring this up. And the thing that's really important for me is the theme of today's conversation is sticking with your vision, because you had an idea, you had a kernel, you had a vision, years and years of trying to get it made. And I know that it wasn't a very easy road. And it didn't just come all naturally for you to become a quote unquote, overnight success. What was the kernel of this? Where did it begin?
Dan Erickson: Well, it began at the first job that I had when I first moved to Los Angeles, which I have sort of colloquially, colloquially called the Door Factory, when I've talked about it in the past, but it wasn't really a Door Factory, it was a company that, you know, they, they make it and they ship and they repair doors and gates throughout the greater Los Angeles area. And I was coming from grad school, I had just like so much negative money, and you know, couldn't afford a car. So I took the bus out to this interview, and it was the first Craigslist interview I could find. And it was a horrible, horrible, horrible job. I mean, I still appreciate them for giving it to me at the time. And you know, the people for the most part were very nice. But it was like I was in this like little windowless office that felt like it was out of like Being John Malkovich or something. And it was just this, you know, horrible fluorescent, like, they never fixed the blinking light above me. And there would be like, there was one window out onto the production floor. And I would see like door parts moving by. And it was just Yeah, it was just it was eating my soul, little by little. And it was it was one day that I walked in. And I just like caught myself having like, what felt like a very casual thought, which is like, what if there wasn't a way to just like, turn off the next eight hours, like, so I'm doing it, I'm there and I'm doing the work. But I don't have to consciously it would feel like just jumping ahead. And then literally, it was like, within about 10 seconds of having that thought the show was mostly formed, like in terms of at least the concept where it was like, one thing led to naturally to another thing, which is like, Well, yeah, but then what about that version of me? Like, does his mind reset every day? And I was like, no, because he would need to remember the stuff he had learned at work. So it would have to be like a totally just separate version of me that lives there all the time and retains memories there. And then was like, Oh my God, but that guy would be in hell, like that would be a nightmare. And so and that morning, I got yelled at by my boss because I was being a terrible employee. That was like sitting there, just like furiously writing down notes about this idea. Well, there were hinges to be cataloged. Yeah, it really was just kind of born out of an actual you know, a moment of corporate misery where I was just like, I would rather not experienced the next eight hours of my life which is the other side of it that I want to do interrogate was like, that's a pretty messed up thing to catch yourself wishing for. Like, I wish I have less of my day. You know? When we have limited time here on Earth, and you're literally wishing for less of it, like there's something wrong. So all of those, it was like, again, within about half an hour of the idea. It was like all these themes were there. And it was just like this is, as a writer, you sort of hope that you'll, you know, happen to stumble upon an idea like that, where you're like, Wait, this is simple ish. But it makes sense. And it's something that feels like, it's like, has anyone done this before, and I looked into it, and no one had so worked out
Zack Arnold: from that point, I think there are so many writers, people that do creative work, whether it's artists, painters, musicians, so many people have kernels of ideas, they have entire journals of ideas, I could do this, I could write that I could make this. They sit in a journal, and they never get made. So from the point that you had this kernel of an idea, and you're pouring it all out onto the page, and I love this vision of you should be cataloging hinges, I'm already seeing the parallels between your real life and the show, which we're going to talk about have not ended from that point. But from kernel of idea to I'm actually going to follow through this, and I'm going to write it and I'm going to get it out into the world. What's how do we feel that giant gap because so many people have ideas, very few have Emmy nominated shows from Apple, right?
Dan Erickson: It was in terms of like actually writing it, that was something that I had gotten better at just through practice, because I was, I mean, like I did, I went to grad school for two years before this. And when I was younger, I would hit a lot of the struggles that a lot of people do, which is, which is yeah, like, you start something, I was really good at getting to like page 30. Because I loved setup, I was like, I was like, Okay, we're setting up the world. It's cool. It's, but then it's like you hit a point where you're like, Well, what next and the executive function, and then the head starts to get compromised it because there's just infinite options, you know, and it just becomes like, what is the shape of this? And, and so I would stop and I would stop after 30 pages. And for me, I didn't get good. Like, I don't think I finished a full length screenplay until I was in grad school. And somebody forced me to so you know, I had gotten used to getting over that initial hump of like, What the hell is this, even just pick a direction and go with it? Yeah, I don't know, I had had a lot of other in and after grad school, I'd written a couple of features. But there was just something about this idea that felt like it worked better than any of those, it was something that again, was sort of simultaneously interesting and new, but also pretty simple and and sort of spoke to something that I thought was going to be really universal. It's like we all have parts of ourselves or parts of our lives that we wish we couldn't experience or think about. And so yeah, it came pretty quickly, like a first draft came pretty quickly. After I had the initial idea, I would say I had a first draft within, you know, a couple of weeks, which is pretty fast for me. But again, it was very different from what it ended up being.
Zack Arnold: So we go from the point where you have the kernel of the idea relatively effortless for you to put it down in a couple of weeks, because like you said, it was something that was relatively simple to execute, as far as the concept is concerned which looking at it. Now, I can't imagine thinking about any of this as simple because it's such a complex story. But I think that again, kind of answering the question, why do we think it hits so Well, number one, you can explain this in a single sentence, right? Imagine if you severed your brain, and you could literally separate work from life and have total work life balance or lack thereof, you get that in a single sentence, I can't really think of anything that's like it. But somatically it's like, Man, how much does that resonate right now. And that's interesting. But what I want to get into that I think is even more interesting. And I want to learn more about the process of I've got the script, and all the challenges or stumbling blocks or rejection that may have been on your path. And maybe it was just super simple to get made. I don't know, I want to learn more about it. But coupled with just walking through the steps and all the potential failure and rejection along the way. What I found is a common theme with every artist and creator that I have talked to is that the reason they didn't give up is there is a deeper emotional resonance and purpose are calling behind the story that they wanted to tell versus Well, it seems like a good opportunity to get something made. Because if that's all you've got is well, that could be my calling card, or this is fun and exciting. You're gonna give up. So I'd like to know first just kind of what were all the major benchmarks to get it made and all of the failures along the way. And what kept you going through all those failures and rejections?
Dan Erickson: Yeah, well, I mean, there was there was definitely no shortage of failures. There were a couple of times I remember having the thought, like, Oh, that's a bummer, I would have been happy to keep doing that for, you know, 10 more years or whatever it was, because I thought it was dead in the water. I had a manager at the time, I didn't yet have my agents, but I had a manager at a time a guy named Ben Blake who's awesome. And he was taking it around and you know, working on it with me sort of giving me feedback and he was taking it around to different places and I would say I had met with like at least 10 Different places who were like interested and each one colored it a little bit and like for some of them I actually would like work with their their executives or the producers there and They'll be like, okay, like, we like this, but it's way too silly. Like, you can't have him get pooped out onto the top of the ceiling onto the table at the beginning, which was the original opening of the show. So I'd be like, okay, all right, like, and I would go and, and they, they asked me, those were the first people to ask me a lot of the bigger questions that I ultimately was gonna have to figure out about, like, well, what is actually going on? Like, what is the actual, you know, we may not know it until the end of the last season or even after that, but but like, what is the actual purpose of this company? What's really going on? And so they got me thinking about the bigger questions. And so I created sort of a Bible for the show that I would go through with them in tandem with the pilot script, and just sort of got into like, the bigger themes and where it's all going. And the characters and everything, there was one really big place that I was hoping he was going to do it. And that fell through and that I remember, at the time kind of felt to me like, Okay, this is maybe time to close the book on this project. But it wasn't, it did stick with me in a way that no other script has. Because I just I kept there was something very personal about it. I mean, I had just gone through like a very, very bad breakup at the time, I remember that I wrote it. And so this idea that, you know, the work putting part of yourself in an office forever, it's like, yes, that's horrible and cruel. But in a way, you're also protecting a piece of yourself from the pain of life, just from the pain of the outside that we all go through. And we all experience from any loss. And you know, there's a part of you that wants to hide from that. And so it was like that scene of Mark crying in his car, you know, it was always in the script. And you know, just this idea of like, okay, now I'm gonna go to a place where I don't have to feel this, that was something that was very personal to me and an emotional experience to write, because of, you know, what I had been going through at the time, it wasn't something I could just put down. It wasn't something I could just like, stop working on. And I think that's why I persisted in continuing to tweak it with each stage with every new person I met. And that got it to the point of being nominated for the blood list. And that was the I honestly don't know who exactly nominated it. But my understanding is like, if there's like a production company that almost wants to do something, or a script, it's just being kicked around. But they're like, well, it's not quite for us. But it's really good, that they can nominate it for this publication. I might be getting that totally wrong. I think that's how it works. But yeah.
Zack Arnold: I'm definitely not the person to ask because that is not my world at all. But there's so many things that I want to dig into here now. And I'm wishing I had scheduled about four hours instead of 90 minutes. But when it comes to this process of going around from studio to studio production company to production company, you said you had at least one pretty major rejection, where you're like, ah, you know, it looks like maybe this isn't going to be made. Did you find that for the most part, people were actually very enthusiastic, or was it more kind of like the fictional pitch that I created where people are like, I don't ever see how we're actually going to make this. It's really cool. But what were kind of the common themes and all of the rejections
Dan Erickson: I think that what a lot of people wanted to do was tamp down the weirdness for sure. So there was a lot of, and again, I'm not necessarily like not in a way that was wrong, necessarily. Because we did end up tamping down some of the weirdness in terms of like, again, the people being born out of orifices and ceilings and such, but then there were others who were like, you know, it's too not only do we not want people being born out of ceilings, but we don't want that. It's like, why are they talking a little weird? Like, you know, this could be a big thriller, like, you know, whatever the show, you know, this this, this could be some I forget what people compared it to, but it but there are people who were like, oh, it's like this, you know, insert network show that kind of has like a memory element to it. You know, I was just always like, Well, yeah, like, I would have accepted that at that point, because I just wanted to be working. But it was like, that's not what this is like this is it was always something that was like weird, and sad and bittersweet and like, ultimately kind of warm. I was like, I want something that feels where we take you into such an alien, weird place. But then we're there for you on the other side with this sort of human story and a tone that is weird, yet recognizable. Again, I assumed I was going to have to compromise that. And I was, you know, I was ready to cash the cheque. But that's why it's so fortunate that it ultimately ended up with somebody who fell in love with the weirdness. Everything was modulated as we went along. But when it finally did get the Ben Stiller, he was the one who was the first one to be like, There's something so strange here, and we have to protect it, because people are going to try to kill it.
Zack Arnold: I'm so glad that you brought that up, specifically the tone, because to me, the tone is one of the main characters of the entire show, and the reason that it works so well. And the reason that I want to bring that up and I also want to go back to where you had mentioned, the scene of Mark crying in his car has always been there. That to me, is the kernel on the heart of what this entire show is you think it's about this high concept sci fi, brain science, etc, etc. Those are just pieces that kind of put the world together but more are sitting in his car and crying about how much he hates his job. There isn't a person on the planet that hasn't had that moment. And again, because of the timing of the pandemic, and everything going on with the lack of work life balance in our lives. That to me is what the show is. And the reason that I resonated with it so much. But what I really discovered today, and I wish that I had discovered it sooner, but discovering the version of the script from 2014, would have brought up as an entirely new discussion that I wasn't even thinking about having the story is totally different. I mean, it's the kernel of it, the tone is totally there, the style of dialogue spot on the characters are who they are. But just one very small example. Hallie and Mark totally switched. Mark is the one on the table. I'm like, holy cow. And then as far as the plot is concerned, by the middle of it, I'm like, I'm totally lost, and how this even connects to the version that I've seen on the show. But it felt like the exact same show and that feeling to me is what's so hard to get on paper. And that was the thing that I feel that survived from years and years ago, through all the notes and all the suggestions. There was something to that was so important. And I'm glad that Ben protected it That to me is what makes it work. The plot is great, but it's not the plot points that work. And I've had this conversation with several other guests. Does character drive plot? Or does plot drive character? And it's pretty clear that for you character is what led to plot and not the other way around?
Dan Erickson: Yeah, I think so. And it's I mean, those those things are snake vomiting, its own tail out i That's incorrect metaphor. But those things create each other in a way, then it's sometimes hard to see where it all started. But yeah, I mean, definitely, I think that it's something where you start with the the most sort of central question is, Who are these people that we're going to be spending our time with, and ostensibly caring about what happens to them. And you know, you don't want to create a character who acts a certain way, because you need to get to plot point x in episode nine. So you want to create a story that's authentic for them. But at the same time, sometimes you do want to get to plot point x and episode nine. And you have to find a way for it to make sense. You have to find a way to it's like, well, we know where we want to get mark. So so how can we what are the things that we can put in the bath in order to get him there? So it is it's all creating itself in real time? And in a way that's that's weird. But to go back? Yeah. I mean, the original version of I think it's I haven't read it in a while. But I think it's like, it's his day, it's his first day. And it leads up to I think him seeing the video of himself. And back to like, the outside and how he got the job, I think, right? Yeah, I
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I actually like the interview. And he there's a dead cat involved. And I'm just like, I don't remember any of this.
Dan Erickson: It's Cobell Scott, I was a mod I killed the cat and the pilot episode, I'm, I don't know why I didn't get bought so
Zack Arnold: Well, the to really dig into this one layer deeper it and this is really for those that are storytellers, and specifically writers, when you're at that crossroads of, well, I can compromise my character, or I can compromise my plot, clearly, you stay true to character, and you have to figure out a plot that matches it. And I feel that it's a mistake to often look at it the other way around where no, this has to be the plot. So let's compromise the character, their beliefs, their values, their motivations, because we have to get from A to B. And that's to me where most stories fall apart. But what's really interesting to me, and I didn't even realize why I gravitated so much to the show the first time upon watching it a second time. And it's frankly, the reason you and I are here today is I wrote this really in depth article not about here's a review of it. But here's the deeper meaning, but also why it's really, really scary, because we're a lot closer to this being our reality than it being science fiction. But it starts with the first line. Who are you? And you said the journey of the entire show? Is these characters asking the questions Who Am I? And universally? That's kind of the question that we're all asking ourselves, who the hell am I in real life? And I think the reason that again, it's so universal. And it's such a cool sci fi interesting concept. There is no more universal theme and stories than who am I?
Dan Erickson: Absolutely. It is, sen I mean, there's definitely a reason that's the first line of the of the show, and it reappears throughout the show, there are certain points where a character will say that and, you know, that's always something to pay attention to. Because, you know, although it is funny, it happens by accident, too. Because just in writing the, in the course of writing nine episodes of TV people say who are you like, it's not that uncommon phrase. So there are a few times where I would like write it by accident. And someone would be like, Oh, that's interesting. You put in a who are you? And I was like, oh, yeah, I didn't mean to. But yes, I mean, it is very much the the concept sort of begs the question of like, what makes us who we are, is it something that is intrinsic to us? Or are we you know, are we a an amalgamation of our memories and experiences, you know, and it just gets back to this very age old nature versus nurture thing. It's one of the most interesting questions to ask ourselves that we asked constantly about all the all the characters is like Like, how much are they the same versus different people, and it's different for different characters. You know, it's it's like you see Mark, and you see the same traits expressed differently, and in a way, and you know, he feels like he's younger on the inside. And he feels like he's not as weighed down. And he's maybe more optimistic at first. But then, in a way, what we're seeing it on the inside is a bunch of children growing up and sort of having an experience that propels them into kind of an adulthood. It's my favorite part of the show, I think is asking ourselves like, what is it that binds the two versions of Mark together? What are the traits that are essential that we can't compromise that will always be there with him on either side? Because they truly are part of who he is? And by the way, we don't have an answer. Like, we haven't figured out nature versus nurture on this show, but it's just a constant. The question is there it's an engine that's always propelling us to the next question.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. And I think that this idea of the compromise between Who am I at work, who am I outside of work, we're pretty aware of the fact that we have separation between the two. But my argument that I make in the article, and I think the argument of the show as well, is that this is kind of a reflection of the way it is in real life. And how hard it is to compartmentalize, well, I'm a dad right now. And I'm home and I'm present with my family. Versus I'm an editor or I'm a writer, or I'm a showrunner The lines have blurred so much, that short of there actually being this severance procedure of which I know that you've talked about how we're actually not that far away from it in real life. But frankly, I don't think we need the medical procedure to kind of be in a position where our real lives are a form of severance, I'm assuming that's an intentional theme of the show
Dan Erickson: Very much, so very much. So yeah. And that was a big part of it was just clocking how different diameters on on one side versus the other, even just like your values shift, you know, it's like, you can be a excellent loving parent, you know, on one side, and then, you know, you might be somebody who has to fire people and put families in dire financial straits on the other side. And how do you reconcile that? And should you, you know, and is it something where, because we do create this boundary, where it's like, well, that's something that I did when I was acting as an agent for this greater body, which is a company, that's not something that I even really had a choice on. So I therefore don't have to carry the moral weight of that home with me. And again, it's like, we sort of have to do that. But it's something that's worth examining, because it is like, we are ultimately people. And is there a way to live in a more holistic, complete way where you feel like you're operating under the same basic set of principles or values, or whatever you call it at all times, and you're able to live consistently, as opposed to like, well, I'm going to do stuff that's that I don't approve of, or that I don't feel good about. But um, but then I'm just not going to think about it. That is sort of the human thing that we try to play with on the show. Who are you? And can you become whole? Like, is it possible in this world to sort of live as a whole person?
Zack Arnold: Yeah. And I think one of the fallacies in the US trying to figure this out in the 21st century, the big question that I think we're all asking is, how can I have more work life balance? And I think it's a good place to start. But I think we're asking the wrong question. Because the line is blurred, so much between work and life because of technology. And I talked about the cult of productivity. And I know that that's a big theme in your show as well. But I don't think there is a version of work life balance that we're working towards anymore. And as you said, it's more finding an alignment of consistent values. And yeah, you might change in some respect between who you are work and who you are at home. But ultimately, you maintain the same general core values. And what I've always talked about, I'm curious, just curious on your perspective, because I've been trying to figure out what do we call it. Instead, what I teach my students is how to develop more work life presence. When you're at work, you're at work, when you're at home, you're at home. And it's this idea of if if you're at the dinner table every night, but while you're at the dinner table, you're answering emails and slack messages, you're not at the dinner table. But if you clock the hours, you've got balance, but you don't have presence, and I don't think we can have balance anymore. And frankly, balance bores the hell out of me. So I think it's all about how do we have more work life presents where I'm would guess for you, and this is where we're going to talk about the blurring lines between the show and what your life has become. There's just that period of time where you're in it, you're making the show, you're doing what you need to do to make it the best it can be. But then you can separate yourself and be a good friend or a good partner or good dad or whatever it might be. So I'm curious, just your thoughts as somebody that is making a show about work life balance? Do you even think it's possible for us to achieve work life balance, given the way the world has changed so much in the last 20 years?
Dan Erickson: Yeah, it's it's not easy. I'll tell you that. I mean, as I'm sure we all everybody listening, knows, I think we forget sometimes how new all of this technology is and how new The idea is because you start to feel like it's been that way forever, but like how new of a notion it is that somebody can text you and They know you saw it. I mean, I mean, it's so rare that we're away from our phones, it's like they're gonna assume you saw it, no one is obligated to respond to a text, but like you feel like you are. That's there's spikes and anxiety and depression and all this stuff. And we just forget that like, you know, 10 or 20, whatever it is years ago, like, it wasn't like that, you know, it's that thing of going to a restaurant without your phone or leaving it at home or forgetting it. And suddenly, it's like you're noticing the space in a way that you didn't before. And I think that we we do underestimate how much it's affected our psyche and how new it is, and how we still don't even understand all the effects of it as much. But yeah, I agree. And like presence is something that I like, really strive for in my life, because I do feel like there was like some slow thing that happens sometimes since I was a kid where it's like, sometimes I don't feel like I'm really in the world. I don't know how to describe it, except like, I don't feel like I'm sensor really experiencing a room or a street or a forest in the way that I could when I was a kid it's it's something intangible that you maybe lose as you get older a bit. And so and I think part of that is the fact that we're so unable to separate from being somewhere else. It's like, you always have to be thinking of the next thing. And so you, you can't be in the present. I'm sure I'm saying things that, you know, you've probably gone over a lot but but it's something that I'm as we talk through it in the show, I'm also recognizing these questions and these challenges of my own life. And it's, it's interesting, it's interesting to try to be telling that story while simultaneously living it.
Zack Arnold: And I love that you shared your own personal example of this, because the best way that I can describe it, and you tell me if this kind of hits on what you're talking about. Because I've done a deep dive for years and years understanding depression, anxiety, ADHD, I've got like the perfect cocktail of all of them, as many creatives do, right? And
Dan Erickson: I got a pretty, I got a pretty spicy little cocktail myself,
Zack Arnold: What well, what you find is that that's not an exception. That's the rule with highly creative people, especially those who become very successful. The ones that do usually they have all those traits, they just learn how to how to harness them as a superpower instead of kryptonite, right. And you being so hyper obsessed with this one idea, and you can't get it out of your head eventually leads to you being the showrunner of it. Whereas somebody that doesn't have some of those traits, whether good or bad, might not have landed there. But the part of this that is so interesting to me is when you shared that sometimes I feel like I'm not actually experiencing the world. And I want to give you my interpretation or my own personal experience, because I bet there are other people that have this as well. Essentially, what it feels like to me is that I'm watching a movie, I'm sitting inside my head, and I'm watching a movie, and it's all happening in front of me. But at the end of the day, it's like was actually living the day? Or did I just watch a movie and you don't remember the smells or the feelings and you don't feel like you're connected or engaged to it? And that's always the best way that I've been able to explain it. Is that similar to what you're talking about?
Dan Erickson: Yeah, definitely. There's just this weird, like disassociation, where you're like, Yeah, I feel like I'm getting the information. I know, I know that I'm in this room. And I know that this thing is happening, but it doesn't feel like you're alive, which is a really depressing way to put it. But I think I think that is how it feels.
Zack Arnold: And that's one of the things that I've spent years learning more about is this feeling of I don't feel like I'm alive, and one of the main contributors, and it's gonna be different for everybody. I'm not a neuroscientist, I'm not a doctor, you know, I'm just a guy that's obsessed with learning all this stuff. And I like movies and TV. And I make it every once in a while, right. So I just want to make that clear to a new listener that this is just my friendly perspective. But a lot of that stems from imbalance of neuro chemistry, lack of sleep way too much stress, way too much cortisol and lack of work life balance. Whereas the more that you exercise regularly, the better you eat, the more you get consistent sleep, then you wake up and you actually feel alive and engaged with the world and you can be your creative best. Yes. And the reason that I say all this is now I want to get more into the story of the blurring between work life balance and severance and work life balance and you trying to make severance. So here here's the next part of the story that's so intriguing to me. Kind of going back to this this hypothetical vision in my head of how this went. You get in front of Ben Stiller Ben Stiller says this is genius. I want to direct I want to executive produce leave the tone. It's, this is amazing. We're gonna make this you go to the studio with this package and they say Oh, who's gonna run it? Let me tell you all about Dan Eric's and let's go to his IMDb Pro page, shall we? So if we scan backwards, he got a special thanks credit on one episode of a show of man versus animal. Okay, no, that's it. He's gonna be our showrunner of this Apple TV show. How did this happen?
Dan Erickson: Well, what's funny is that that's actually IMDb isn't quite sure on me yet, man that that man versus animal is another Dan Erickson that is not me.
Zack Arnold: That makes the story even funnier. So there was literally nothing to see on IMDb and here you are running this immensely complicated show And the reason it's so important to talk about this is, as you know, from your end of things as a writer, now turn producer showrunner. There's a huge shortage of experienced writer producers becoming showrunners. And this is becoming a big issue for the Writers Guild. So I'm curious, what was the conversation where they decided, yes, not only do we love Dan Erickson is the writer, but he's going to run the show.
Dan Erickson: Well, I should say that. showrunner in the case of our show is a pretty relative term that has been somewhat shared amongst a couple of different people over time. At that time, they were willing to take a risk on me which, which was very cool, and very surprising. I wasn't sure I was, like, live and be in the writers room? Or will I like hand off the idea to like, more capable minds or more experienced minds? Because yeah, I mean, it's true. I had, I had done basically nothing at that point. But they did. They were like, We want you in the rooms, we want you sort of guiding the process, but we aren't going to pair you with somebody else. So they paired me with a guy at the time, it was named Chris Black, and is really, really, really smart, experienced, interesting guy who also like got the tone of the show really well, he had worked on some other stuff that that was a little bit in that world of being like, somewhat, you know, genre II and and like weird, it's scary, but like, funny in a way. And so he and I worked on it together. But also with Ben, I mean, Ben was very, especially once he was done with work on escape at Dannemora. You know, he was very close, close, was working very closely with us and crafting it from the get go. But I did, I basically ran the room in tandem with Chris. And then, you know, once it moved into production, I was largely running it in tandem with Andy, Mark Friedman. And so at every stage of that there was somebody there with me to sort of make sure that I didn't steer it completely off the rails, and in a lot of cases to, you know, to inject ideas that made it work where it wouldn't have worked. Otherwise, I was surprised at the confidence of Apple. But I was also given a lot of help.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. And that's a really, really smart way, I think, to approach it. Years ago, I worked on a show called Burn Notice. And at the time, and I wasn't on at season one, I came in season four through the end of it, season seven. So I wasn't there at the very beginning. But the creator of that show became the showrunner Matt Nix. But the first season, they did the same thing, where they paired him with kind of a co showrunner, just so we could understand the day to day of, there's a big difference between, I'm a writer, and now I'm a writer, and I'm the CEO of a company managing an entire team of being a leader. That's a pretty massive shift. And after Season One, he totally took the reins, and I think he did a brilliant job. But I know that that's a fairly common arrangement. And I think that for some people, they could see that as well, you know that that's a point of weakness, or I'm inexperienced, or people don't believe in me, but you strike me as somebody that really embraced it as a value and strengthening you as opposed to well, you know, there must be something wrong with me if I need this help.
Dan Erickson: Yeah, no, totally. I was grateful for it. I didn't want to be up there with that, in that, you know, as certainly, and I will say, like, I don't really want to be CEO, to be honest with you. And it's, it's so it's such an interesting thing, this role of showrunner. I think the reason that it can be hard to fill is it is such a weird confluence of qualities, and skill sets, where you don't have a ton of people who are really good at creating and crafting a concept and turning that into a pilot, a really interesting, bonkers pilot, and people who are really good at running a production like, that's, that Venn diagram barely touches. And so when you do find somebody who's really good at both of those things, you sort of found a unicorn. And so you know, that that was why, you know, I was so grateful, you know, initially when they paired me with Chris, because it was like, He's, he's got this mind where he can do both, he can sort of pivot between both worlds. Yeah, I mean, it's not something that I don't think I'm speaking out of school here, but But I, I've never really been the show runner in terms of production, and liaising with all the different departments and the line producer and the schedules to put it all together and make it work. Like I've never really stepped into that role. And I don't know that I will, because it is like, it's just something that is such a different skill set. And you know, we'll see what happens over the years. But like, for the most part, you know, my whole thing is story. And it's just like, I want to make this work. And then I want to, you know, I want to do what I can to liaise with all the other creatives and and make sure that we're telling this you know, telling the story the way we want to but yeah, it's it is just a strange, like showrunner is such a weird, specific role that like as we conceive of it, so few people can do like, or have been proven to do effectively. Anyway,
Zack Arnold: One of the things that impresses me about this show that impresses me about shows like Breaking Bad and others that are really kind of in the canon of great shows which again, we still need to see multiple seasons to make sure you're in that conversation, but I have a pretty high level of confidence, it probably will be. But what I'm really impressed by is consistency, when you can look at any episode of a show over three seasons, or five or eight, and it feels like the same show. And it's really hard to do that, because there are some amazing shows that have one or two unbelievable seasons. And then they completely tanked Dexter sorry, something in my throat, right? Yeah, I don't know what that was. But the point being that it's almost impossible to have that consistency over years and years. And my theory, my hypothesis is that the two main components, and there's probably more than this, but number one, is you have to be willing to know what you don't know and surround yourself with people that are really good at filling the gaps that you can't, which I feel like for you not wanting to be the CEO not wanting to deal with production, you're surrounded by a lot of the right people, including craftspeople, cinematographers, editors, composers, like it just I feel like every single beat of all the different departments is just running on all cylinders. And there has to be a willingness to leave your ego at the door and say, they're better at this stuff than I am. But then the problem is, if you don't have your own consistent vision, and you can't communicate it, then all of a sudden, you get a show done by committee where every individual department head thinks they know best, but you can steer them and say, hey, that's great. That's not my vision.
Dan Erickson: Yeah, it's so I mean, it's, it's balanced not to not to go back to a buzzword, because good advice can become bad advice if the wrong person hears it, or you hear that, too. And someone you know, I've so many people have said, like, you have to stick to your vision, like, this is your show, you have to fight for it, you have to defend it. And and if you know you're right about something, you have to fight for it, you know, because other people will try to water it down, which is great advice, like, but another piece of great advice is you have to listen to those around you and you won't always be right. And you will meet people, you will think you're right in the moment. And then later, you'll look back and be like, Oh my god, they had the right impulse. And I wasn't listening. Like, that's also a thing that happens. And so those are both pieces of advice that I've gotten at different times. And it's just a matter of like, whereas like you said, whereas How do you do both? How do you decide what matters? How do you decide which of your ideas, you know, are worth fighting for? And which ones you know, you could be wrong on? And that's why it's hard, I think is there is no easy answer. Like I wish I could be like I found it, I found the line. But I still Yeah, it's still something I deal with, like constantly. I'm disagreeing with Ben on stuff, or, you know, one of the other writers, it happens all the time. And it's always had it happened in season one, it happens in season two. And both of us have our different math we have to do in our head of like, okay, is this worth continuing to fight for? Or is this other guy, maybe? Maybe on to something? And yeah, it's hard.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. And at the end of the day, what you can the way that I broken it down, and I worked on a very different level where I'm working in editorial, and so many decisions are already made, by the time the dailies get in front of me. But if they're ideas that I want to convey, or I feel a scene isn't working, or sequences and working, whatever it might be, the question for me is always, do I want to win the battle? Or do I want to win the war? And when I'm breaking that down, it's a matter of Alright, so this one training montage, let's say we're talking about Cobra Kai, I'm cutting this training montage, and it absolutely has to be this song. And they're like, No, we don't like that song. Well, in the grand scheme of the entire season, I feel like there's a credit or a quota of how many times you can really die on a hill versus All right, at the end of the day, this is your vision, and then it's not mine. So we'll go in that direction. But there's always kind of this. Well, maybe next time, I can kind of interject my thoughts into it. But the buck stops with you. I realize there's apple and there's executives, but it's different for you where I can pass it along and be like, alright, well, this is your decision and your show. So even if I don't agree with it, you're going to take the fall, if it doesn't work, you're gonna get all the accolades. If it does, but it ends with you. You're the guy This came out of your mind. So is it like, is it just based on intuition? are you calculating it because this is a really tough place to live, especially as a new showrunner and writer with your first show?
Dan Erickson: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, ultimately, all you have is your own intuition. There's, there's never going to be a time where, you know, you can't pull the audience and there's never going to be a moment where suddenly it's like, every single person would tell you, this is right. So this is objectively the right thing to do. It's always just you got to figure it out. And again, I always just try to go back to is actually something I have a really good therapist, so I talked to a lot about work. And she like she's like, whenever you can, she's like, I know, this is hard, but like, whenever you can try to just get back to the point of you're writing this for yourself. It's like, if I was just writing this for myself, and I wasn't, you know, I didn't have to turn it in in two days and was worried about you know, what XYZ person is going to thank you know, what would you write like, what what's fun, you know, and and sometimes I can get back to that headspace and sometimes I can't. But when I can, it almost always works. It's like I always end up with something that, that it might not be what Apple or whoever like, was asking for exactly, but but I'll find something. And I'll be like, in the journey of going through these steps, I found this thing. And I think it's interesting. And I think we should go for it. And usually when when I find something that way it works and it gets passed. But it is interesting, because it is the buck does stop with me, but also it rightfully safeguards and there are people around me who I have to get it passed to who it's like, I need to make sure that these people think this is ready. And so that's the challenge is to not get in a headspace of trying to like think like them, it's like just think like you and if you do it right, then they'll like it.
Zack Arnold: And I think that comes back full circle to what you said at the beginning, which is I was writing this for five guys that were gonna go on the internet say, Oh, my God, did you hear that show? It's awesome. You're not trying to write it for everybody. That's why I think that it's working is it's so unique. And it's so there, I'm sure plenty of people that it would watch one or two episodes, they're like, What is this? This is so not for me. But as a creator, as an artist, you just have to be willing to accept that my work will attract the right people, and I will totally repel all the wrong people. I have to be okay with that. You try to make it for everybody. Well, it's probably gonna end up on CBS.
Dan Erickson: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is it was a case of sort of getting rewarded for sticking to the vision. And again, I have to give Ben a lot of credit for that, because he's, he's obviously a pretty big heavyweight in the industry. And he could have very easily spent the rest of his life being one of the biggest comedy stars in the world and been very successful at that. But he decided that he wanted to tell interesting stories, and that he was going to use the cloud, he's built up in the industry to protect interesting stories. And he, you know, he was gonna be the one who could tell the net, but the network or the distributor, or whomever, just like, sorry, this is how we're doing it, you know, and I will say, like, Apple and fifth season have always been really good at that, like, in my experience, have always been really good at letting us do that. But I think a big part of it is that, you know, you have the weight of being Ben Stiller, and he was willing to use that capital to defend this, the weirdness of the story. And I think that's the that's the biggest X factor as to how we were able to get this made without killing it, you know, without killing what made it unique.
Zack Arnold: Where I want to go next is something that we've alluded to a couple of times, and to me kind of ends up becoming the best part, I hope of this conversation is you become the showrunner of the show, and all of a sudden, the lines start to blur between the show and you making the show so talk to me about some of the brand new work life balance challenges or otherwise the you have experience now being immersed in this world literally 24/7
Dan Erickson: Yeah, it's like what's the Nightmare on Elm Street movie where like Freddy comes for the actors like he breaks out of the movie. And he comes further like cast and crew of Nightmare on Elm Street like it gets really meta. I remember at some point in the franchise, is it West Cravens New Nightmare.
Zack Arnold: Anyway, it's one of them. I don't know exactly which one. But yeah, I definitely get the concept. There's one where it gets
Dan Erickson: There's one where it gets to meta. But but that's what happened to me like work life balance, the problems broke out of the script, and they came to eat me alive. Because it is like, and I always hesitate to sort of, I certainly don't want to sound like I'm griping but like it completely consumed. Like every once this was happening. And the weight of that sort of landed on me like oh my God, I am getting a an opportunity here that is a miracle and that I never thought I get and I have to give this everything like this is what if not this am I ever going to pour my whole self into you know, because this is the story I wanted to tell. And I'm getting a chance to tell it on this huge level. And I have all these incredibly gifted people who are also like pouring everything they have into it. That's the other thing is you feel a sense of responsibility, because of the hard work everybody else is doing. And you're like, Well, I'm I'm at the top of this if I'm not willing to do the same thing. What does that say? And so yeah, I mean, I sort of stopped doing a lot of the stuff I used to do, like I was I basically didn't date for like, a couple of years. And I you know, I had like a I was lucky enough to have a really good core group of friends, you know, here in LA that I would see and that I would sort of get out but it was like I haven't been on a hike and so long I've recently started to try to get back into healthy diet and exercise but it was like when the show happened I totally regressed in terms of like I used to cook for myself fairly regularly. And I I've cooked for myself maybe like three or four times in the last couple of years because it is like you get so in your your head about it. And it's it's like, well, I don't have time to I can't go down to the grocery store and like spend time squeezing avocados like like there's work to be done to keep my miracle alive. If no, because it because it's such a gift that it came and you almost feel like the idea of living a normal life, you start to feel like is ungrateful or something. And there was there was just mounting the pressure and which didn't get better when when the show became a success. I mean, if anything, it was the it was the country where it was like, once season two hit, and people are I'm sorry, season one hit. And people actually started to respond to it, and it and it was like, Okay, now we have a responsibility not just to these people working hard for us. But to these however many, you know, many, many people who watch and love the show and have invested their time. And and it does, like, you know, the like the things you say are there. Those are the little anxiety voices in my head that are just like, well, if it's not as good as Season One, people are going to be really like they're going to say that they're going to be upset, and they're going to feel let down. And it's all this, all this stuff that that builds up and builds up. And I've only recently had to really actively try to take control over that and just be like, Okay, I'm not going to be any good at anybody if I dropped dead. So like, how do I get back to a point where I'm doing this show, and I'm putting in enough time and effort and energy to make it work. But I am not letting it eat me. And I'm still and again, like I just sometimes I can just be present in a room and feel, you know, feel my weight on a chair and not be thinking about the deadline that they have, you know, a day from now. Yeah, and I'm still figuring it out. I'm still not great at it. But it's you know, it is it's a big mix of meditation and just setting time boundaries where it is like, okay, like, I'm god dammit, I'm going on a date tonight. And I'm not gonna look at my phone, or I'm just watching a movie tonight. And I'm not going to look at my phone and and, and trying to train your brain to not be catastrophizing about the thing and remembering that that stress isn't, isn't helping you like, if you sit for two hours stressed out and do nothing. That's the same as sitting at peace and getting nothing done. You know, it's you get the same amount done, but you're working on your your health. So yeah, it's I feel like it's, you know, if I'm rambling, it's because I'm in the middle of figuring it out. But it's something that I'm trying to be very conscious of, especially now that it feels like the show may may go for some time. And, you know, it's like you have to find a way that's tenable to do it and still exist.
Zack Arnold: Well, you found the sweet spot, my friend, because this is literally what I specialize in. And this is the problem that I help people solve all day, every day used to be solving my own problem working 60 7080 hours a week, then it became a little bit of a side hustle. Let me see if I can help some of my editor friends through this. And now it's become this entire movement where I firmly believe that you can live a more balanced, productive, fulfilling life and have a creative career. But it has to be sustainable, because like you said, you make season one and then you drop dead. What was the point, right, but the way that the industry is constructed, and the expectations that are put upon us with deadlines and budgets and turnaround, right, we're losing our relationships, we're losing our health, we're losing our literal sanity for some people. And I have colleagues that have literally dropped that at their desks because of the hours, there isn't a direct causation, the correlation is pretty clear. So that's the whole reason that I do what I do, because I know how difficult this is for everybody. So essentially, what I want to do is I want to turn this around a little bit. And instead of it being tell us about all the problems that you solve, I want to know one that you haven't solved yet specifically related to how do I maintain both a consistent show over multiple seasons, but do it while maintaining who I am as a person maintaining my health because you're not going to write great scripts, if your health is in a horrible place. So what's what's kind of the conundrum for you right now we're like, Man, how do I fit this in or make this happen or create this habit? What is it that you're struggling with right now? That is the separation of work and life for you?
Dan Erickson: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that the easiest thing to point to is exercise. I mean, it is because it because it's like you know, I think that there's a I have like a my notes app I have like a little like we schedule it's like okay, this day it's meditation and jogging, and this day, it's meditation and weights are you know, blah, blah, blah. And you know, I was I was doing that for about four days and then and then I stopped and it is just because I you know, it's it's like it's about waking up and being like, okay, yeah, I could jog but then I will have lost an hour or have lost you know, half an hour or whatever however long it takes to find my shorts and change into them and everything you know, and it's that's something I've not been able to crack yet in terms of doing consistently
Zack Arnold: Cool you mind if we dig into this a little bit deeper? Okay. Awesome I'm curious what did your exercise haven't looked like before you were making severance?
Dan Erickson: It was also not the best if I'm being totally honest with you. It's never been my but yeah, like I had a gym membership. I would go probably three times a week and That would spend maybe an hour there and it was like, Yeah, mix of like running on a treadmill and then doing some weight stuff. And it worked. It worked okay.
Zack Arnold: Aside from it working okay. Did you actually enjoy it? Did you look forward to it? Or was it just the thing you had to do? Because you were supposed to?
Dan Erickson: Yeah, no, I've never really enjoyed it. If I'm being totally honest.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, you couldn't catch me dead going to the gym? Because it's just so boring and banal. And if I have to do it, rather than I get to do it, I never gonna do it. Is there anything that you've done previously activities, whether you were kid right out of college, in college, something physical that you actually enjoyed? That was fun that you were drawn to?
Dan Erickson: Yeah, I mean, climbing I think, I wonder sometimes I went to a climbing gym like once a couple years ago, and like, had a really, really good time. Some friends. But But yeah, that was something I used to do as a kid more like, yeah, no, it was camp counselor. And I would do the climbing wall and stuff. And it was always fun. Yeah, I mean, biking, maybe like, that's something that I don't know. I'm, like, intimidated by it. Because I'm like, Well, where do you even bike around my neighborhood? Like, I'd have to figure out, I feel like I don't even know how to bike. The other bike, bicyclists will laugh at me.
Zack Arnold: So now we've got some impostor syndrome, right, which factors into whether you're a creative or otherwise, for you, somebody that considers themselves one who exercises their cycles, I'm going to look like a moron, I'm going to show up with the wrong kind of bike and the wrong tires for the trail. And they've all got their nice helmets and their golf, their sponsored stuff. And I'm here and my, you know, my, my, my gray shirt and my shorts, like, I'm going to look like a moron, right? So that happens to all of us. And if we break it down into small component parts, we can just figure out how to take one step at a time no different than if you were going to write a new spec script, for example, you start with a kernel of an idea, and you go from there. So if we're going to look at climbing, versus cycling, which of those is a skill that actually excites you to get better at probably climbing, because climbing is kind of fun. This is problem solving. And you know, it's different. And it's the kind of thing where you can actually rather than it being I got to put in the miles, there's actually some variation. Yeah. Are you in the Where do you live? Like, What's your general neighborhood? I don't need to, you know, publicize your address. But are you in LA?
Dan Erickson: Yeah, I'm in LA. I'm in LA. I'm in Los Angeles, Silver Lake area.
Zack Arnold: All right. So then I don't know exactly where it is. But I know that there's a climbing gym relatively close to you. In the past, when you've done whether it was climbing or cycling or going to the gym, did you have people that were expecting you to be there? No, no, I don't think I've ever had that. Is that something that would help you? Not everybody needs it. But I feel like for most people having that accountability in that group, and somebody's waiting for you to show up? That's a pretty determining factor about whether or not you go for days, or you go for months.
Dan Erickson: Yeah, I think it would help but also it also scares the crap out of me.
Zack Arnold: Ah, see, now we're getting into the sweet spot, because now it's getting uncomfortable. So what's what's causing you to break a sweat?
Dan Erickson: Just like it in general in life?
Zack Arnold: No, no, I mean, this idea of like, going to a climbing gym, people are expecting me to be there. Is it like a good discomfort or like it? No, this definitely is not for me.
Dan Erickson: No, I mean, it's probably a good discomfort. I mean, it's it's the it's this idea of like, if I yeah, like signing up for a trainer or something is something I've always been like. Because then he'll, what if I, what if something comes up? Right? It's one more person who is going to have an expectation of me in an easy life. I guess
Zack Arnold: Because at end of the day, that's what it is for you all day, every day. There's a DP there's an editor, there's a studio executive, there's a co showrunner. There's Ben Stiller. Everybody's has some expectation. So for you, it just feels like that would be one other person that I now have to meet their expectation.
Dan Erickson: Yeah. Yeah. Which is not I mean, it's not. I'm not saying my brain is right when it thinks that but but that is sort of what my, it's like, oh, I can't sign up for a class, then I'll have to go to the class. You know,
Zack Arnold: What if you didn't sign up for a class or you didn't schedule with a trainer he just showed up
Dan Erickson: yet? Just just yeah, it would probably be fun.
Zack Arnold: So if you were to establish the habit of climbing or cycling, or some combination of the both, it wasn't even something that you did, like 567 days a week, but let's just like you said, you haven't gone hiking in forever. Say that you go one day a week? What effect is that have on your work on your creativity on your mood relationships? How what's kind of the the domino effect?
Dan Erickson: Well, I think it's, I mean, I think it's a positive effect. I think it's, it's, you know, you, again, you get out of the cycle of where you're always working, and then you start to feel, you know, it's like, there's a there's a, you're filling your tank a little bit too. I mean, it's like you have to have experiences to write about things and you're, you're getting out and you're living life and so I I think it can only be good.
Zack Arnold: And I've obviously I would agree, because that's what I advocate for all the time. The other part that I'm curious about and I think this is much more common, whether you're at the level that you are or even significantly lower on the totem pole is As you were talking about how you have all these expectations that you want to meet, and you're working 24/7 to meet all of them, how much of those do you think are coming from you inside versus whether it's an executive or somebody else on the outside saying, we need you to focus on this 24/7 and make this happen? I think it's kind of a blend of both for but from your perspective, in your world, your experience doing now your first two seasons of a show? How much of it is it's very clear, this is the external expectation versus I could actually go on a date or I could go climbing or whatever, but I put it upon myself to always be available.
Dan Erickson: Yeah, it's interesting. It's, it's some of each, you know, I wouldn't say that. It's like, it's certainly not all in my head. But there definitely the sense that like, it has to always be on your mind is at least somewhat self imposed. I had. So I had a another person who, you know, came in and was helping to run the season two room with a guy named Sam Catlin, like said at one point, he had done multiple seasons of a different show. And he was like, it wasn't until after the second season that I realized I was working harder than I had to. And I was doing these things. And at the time that he said that I remember sort of being like, no, that's not it's like, there's no way like, Everything we're doing is necessary. Like there's an end, it's not self imposed. It's not something you can just choose to walk away from. But I do I feel like I've slowly been coming to understand what he means, in a way where it's like, yeah, but there are simpler ways to get there. And you're not supposed to be thinking about it all the time. Like, like, you have to find a way like, you will be better. And you'll get more done. If you find a way to like, don't think about every decision you're gonna have to make in the next five days. Just think about it when it comes and then move on to the next thing. And then when you're when you're done for the day be done for the day. And yeah, so so. So it's a long answer. But But I think to to an extent, it's definitely self imposed.
Zack Arnold: And the reason that I bring that up is I in working with so many people in so many different crafts, that it's often about the skill of setting boundaries. And it's hard to set boundaries until you actually going back to what we mentioned earlier, have a very clear vision. So I just wanted to create this hypothetical example, because I think it's so analogous to what so many people deal with in this industry. So hypothetically, you're thinking, You know what, I think I want to build a habit of going climbing, not gonna be doing it all day, every day, I'm not going to be bouldering in the mountains. But maybe I want to establish the habit of climbing, let's say, once or twice a week, where do you reach the boundary or the non negotiable of it's going to be at the expense of these things on the show? Versus I feel like I should be working. But at the end of the day, I'm kind of creating this false expectation. How would you balance those two were the climbing is good for me. And it's a boundary versus it's now compromising what I want to do with the show on my vision?
Dan Erickson: It's a good question. I mean, that's, that's something I grapple with, for sure, I think that ideally, you or you would hope that the activities would would actually ultimately benefit the work. And that you're by taking care of yourself and getting in a good rhythm, you are setting yourself up for more success, and that you're going to be more productive during those hours when you are working.
Zack Arnold: So here's the flip side of it. Having gone through all this and being in your mind, 24/7 in the show, there's gotta be some value to that, given that you're living a lot of the themes that you're talking about. So where does even though it might not be best for your health, or your cholesterol or whatever, short term, you're doing a lot of good research to really understand and crawl into the mind of your characters, I would presume?
Dan Erickson: Yeah, it's like, it's like method acting, but for writing.
Zack Arnold: I love it. That's a great way to put it, but basically your method writing or not so. So the last thing that I wanted to go into very, very briefly, just because I know that this idea of the pipeline, from staff writer to co EP to up to show runner, that line has really been blurred in the industry because of streaming and the proliferation of content. And I know this is a big topic of potential conversation for what hopefully is not going to be a strike. But I know that there's a lot of conversations around this. So if I were a writer that was on the more non traditional path, and I'm about to potentially sell a show where I may end up in a position similar to you. Granted, you haven't been doing it for 20 years, but you've now been through the wringer. What are some of the pieces of advice you would give me and things that I don't know that I don't know that you now know.
Dan Erickson: Oh man, that's a really good question. It's hard to not just say everything because I mean, for me, it really it truly was. And I think I have an unusual trajectory here where I really did go from like zero to 100. Again, I had never been in a writers room, so I wasn't sure you know, the degree to which I should try to run the conversation. It's like, should I come in and already have some ideas flushed out and let people sort of pitch on that or it's like, Are people gonna be offended if I do like, like, are the other writers gonna think that, you know, did they want to just generate it conversationally, and I think what I was lucky to learn is that a lot of it can be what you make it. Like, it's not like you may be told it's like, this is how a writers room works. But it's like, I was lucky enough to be in a position where it was like, I was encouraged to like, figure out what works for you, and then just do that. And we will support you in that. And so for me, like in that in that season, one room like there was a lot of times like I would, you know, we would meet for a couple hours, and then I'd say like, I need some time in my office, I just need to sit and think for a while. And you know, I learned a certain point, like people aren't going to be mad if I asked that, like, because I'm the one who has to get this done. Ultimately, I can tell people, what is best for me in terms of process. So yeah, not being too afraid to mess up. I mean, that that's, I guess, is what it comes down to like, knowing that the people around you are not waiting for you to screw up. They're, they're just there to help. And they they are on your, your team and on your side. And it's not like that nightmare, where you're taking a test and don't know any of the answers. It's like, you have the people around you and they have the answers. And it's okay to ask them. And it's okay to tell them what you need and let them use their expertise to help you get there.
Zack Arnold: Failure is a core component and a mindset that I teach all the time where I believe failure is the fastest path to success, versus we have to avoid failure at all costs. And we need to portray success at all times goes back to this idea of one of the reasons you've been able to maintain a consistent vision. You're okay if other people around you have the best ideas and have answers to the questions that you don't I think that's such a core part of being a leader, being a creator, and all the the other things that we've talked about. So one last thing to wrap it up. We've talked about giving advice to a potential writer, showrunner that's going to be in a similar position as you one last person I want to give advice to, it's an exercise I don't do with all of my guests, but I'm curious what your answer might be, you're going to become a time traveler, and we're going to time travel back to whatever the moment was, you were the most convinced this was never going to happen. Knowing what you know, now, you're going to sit down and you're gonna give yourself a little bit chat. What are you gonna, what are you gonna give yourself as far as some advice?
Dan Erickson: Okay, so I'm, I'm speaking now to Dan circa the onset of the COVID 19 pandemic. And listen, I know, You've spent the last, you know, three years getting this thing ready. And at every stage, you keep thinking, oh, something's gonna fall through, and it's not gonna work, it's not gonna work. And then you had finally gotten to the point where it's like, Oh, my God, this is actually going to happen. I know, you just had a table read, Patricia Arquette was there, John Titor was there, it was huge, it was this big thing. And then all of a sudden, you got news that we're shutting down because of this pandemic. And we have to shut down. And we don't know when we're coming back. Now, I know that you think that the universe is screwing with you right now. And that it's like, Oh, my God, it was finally about to happen. And then the only thing that could have possibly stopped it happened. But universe is not against you. The COVID pandemic, in fact, is not about you. It's something that everybody has to deal with. And, and in fact, this is just one more hurdle. And it is actually going to be good for not not on any level. COVID is good, is what I'm saying. But in terms of the show, you are going to now actually get much more time to write the season and hone it. And you're going to use that time to make it the best it can possibly be. And it's still going to happen. And it's going to be really good. And you're going to meet Michael Keaton at an award show. And it's going to be really cool. And he's gonna say he likes the show. So it just looks like a cosmic joke that's going to kill your show, but it's not it's going to make you stronger. You're going to be okay.
Zack Arnold: That is by far the best answer I have ever gotten to that question. Oh, my God, that was so good. The level of detail like the performance, the vision, usually people get some really good advice. And then sometimes they emotionally go there, the fact that you acted it out and pictured yourself in this scenario with a level of detail. Now I understand why you are the storyteller that you are because that was great.
Dan Erickson: Now, I also say stop trimming your own beard, go to a barber and have them trim your beard because they know how to do it. And you don't know how to do it. And you look you look ridiculous. That's
Zack Arnold: What a what a great way to cap it. I can see so much of your personality in the show now that it's all come together and made so much more sense to me. I could probably go for at least another three, four hours. However, I am going to be respectful of your time. And I just want to close by saying in my mind this episode, and this conversation has been months and months and months and months in the making. It was totally worth the wait and you not only met but exceeded my expectations. I can't thank you enough for being here. And for anybody that's out there that wants to learn more about you beyond severance that might want to connect with you. Can they do that? And if so, how?
Dan Erickson: They can look me up on Instagram. I'm at instadan360 That's me. That's probably the best way
Zack Arnold: Again, I can't thank you enough. This has meant the world to me. and really appreciate you taking the time to share your experience your expertise and just help us all better understand how to manage this crazy journey that we call life thank you so much Dan
Dan Erickson: Thank you so much this is great
This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared by Debby Germino and published by Glen McNiel.
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