Episode Highlights

• The two specific factors that mark the difference between making a multi-million dollar box office hit and an independent film (that have nothing to do with funding)
• Why more people are making films now for the first time and why that’s beneficial to everyone
• Putting together a film crew for the first time? Look for this one specific trait in people (it has nothing to do with experience)
• The one thing you can do to maintain a positive mindset and reach your goals amidst ANY obstacle that appears
• The number one quality you need to have if you want to become successful in any leadership position
• The key elements of the Optimize Yourself program that Matt used in the real world that directly led him to success
• How cold outreach (when done in the proper ways we discuss) is the key to connecting and building relationships with experts in your industry
• The one thing you can do in your cold outreach emails that will drastically increase your response rate
• Why Matthew originally made fun of the Optimize Yourself cold outreach formula…and why he now uses it so often
• What it means to “tell your story” and how that is the secret to working with experts

Useful Links

• AMERICAN MURDERER on Amazon
• AMERICAN MURDERER on iTunes
• Post Perspective
• Los Angeles Post Production Group – Previs on an Indie Budget
• Avid Rough Cut Podcast
• No Film School Podcast
• CinemaMontage Magazine
• Why Writing Cold Emails Is the Most Important ‘Soft Skill’ You Must Master (Especially If You’re An Introvert) (zackarnold.com)
• The 5 Most Common Mistakes You’re Making With Your Cold Emails (and How to Fix Them) (zackarnold.com)

About Guest

Matt Allen is a Los Angeles based filmmaker and recipient of the American Cinema Editor’s prestigious Eric Zumbrunnen Fellowship. Matt recently edited his first feature film AMERICAN MURDERER (starring Tom Pelphrey, Ryan Phillippe and Jacki Weaver). He also served as the film’s pre-vis editor, music editor and score producer. Matt began his movie journey in the studio offices of CBS Films and Voltage Pictures. After falling in love with the process of film editing, Matt began working as an assistant editor. Some of his credits include Hollywood Feature films Disney’s Christopher Robin, A Man Called Otto starring Tom Hanks, Bloodshot starring Vin Diesel, and Sweet Girl starring Jason Momoa. Matt holds an MFA in film editing from the American Film Institute and is an Associate Member of American Cinema Editors.

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Matthew Gentile is an award-winning filmmaker. His narrative feature debut, AMERICAN MURDERER, stars Emmy-nominee Tom Pelphrey, Ryan Phillippe, Idina Menzel, Oscar nominee Jacki Weaver, Shantel VanSanten, Moises Arias, Paul Schneider, and Kevin Corrigan. A graduate of the prestigious directing program at the AFI Conservatory, Matthew’s thesis film FRONTMAN won the Student Emmy for Best Directing and his second thesis LAWMAN played over 100 festivals worldwide and won the Dolby + Vizio Vision Award at AFI Fest. Currently, Matthew is prepping his second feature, a thriller/noir titled THE SOCIALITE (based on the nonfiction book A SOCIALITE SCORNED) and is developing multiple projects in the true-crime, action, and thriller genres.

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Transcript

Zack Arnold: I'm here today with Matt and Matthew. Matt Allen is a longtime student of mine in the Optimizer program, we're going to hear all about your journey, which has now led us to also having a conversation with Matthew Gentile, who is the writer, director, producer extraordinaire that has made the movie American Murder a reality. And today's gonna be a really interesting conversation. Because generally, when I do student case studies, it's a one on one conversation between me and one of my students. But Matt, of the Matt and Matthew pair, so Matt, specifically, when you came to me and talk to me about how you were using the outreach strategies, that you would learn to get your film in festivals, and now Matthew is a convert of all this, I thought, how interesting would it be to tell your stories, both from the perspective of just a student case study, but more importantly, how the lessons you learned have extended benefits far beyond you, and to others that are around you, and now to many other people in both of your ecosystem? So on that note, Matt and Matthew, pleasure to finally have you on the microphone today.

Matthew Gentile: Pleasure to be here.

Matt Allen: Thanks for having us.

Zack Arnold: So I it's it's always a challenge managing a conversation with more than one guest at a time. Because I always feel really bad about how do I make sure the conversation is balanced? And not leave anybody out? And who do I start with and who goes next, we're just going to turn it into an organic conversation. But I think the important place to start is the origin of the movie, The we're going to kind of center all these conversations around. So I'm gonna start with you, Matthew. And I want to talk a little bit more about your journey to become a filmmaker and a storyteller and where this idea for American murderer first came from?

Matthew Gentile: Sure. Once again, thank you for having us. Thanks for that info. And yes, we are big students, if you're so that didn't just small sticks. We are huge, mad especially but we know, your strategies has helped us tremendously. And I wish I learned them a decade ago, but I'll take them from your honor. So starting with my journey, you know, I want to be a filmmaker since as long as I can remember, I'm one of those who was walking around the video camera 12 making movies in class and whatever. You know, I always loved movies as a kid, you know, growing up when I was 12, I think my father showed me a lot of movies I should probably not have seen from like Dog Day Afternoon to the Godfather, Goodfellas and films and just really spoke to me. I always loved filming the war and stories about anti heroes, you know, as well as stuff like James Bond and those kinds of cool action thriller kinds of things. So, you know, I grew up knowing I wanted to be a filmmaker, but I kind of went in and out of different things as one does through their teenage years in high school, I was into acting at one point as into writing. So it's kind of all swirling around leading me towards directing without me really knowing it. When I was 14 years old, I first had encountered the story that became American burger because I wanted to be an FBI agent as well, other childhood dream I had. And I used to go on the fbi.gov website, I would look up the top 10 fugitives to see, you know, who was missing. And at the time, you know, I was 14 I was a young teen in like the early 2000s. So you know, you had fugitives like Osama bin Laden, white soldier up at the top 10 lists. And then you had this guy, Jason dark brown, who was a surfer dude with spiky blond hair and green eyes, you know, just didn't really fit the bill. And his mug shot made an impact on me, it was a visual that just puts God into the subconscious and stayed there for a long time. How to 14 years later, I went to film school at AFI, where I met Matt. And, you know, after I graduated, I, you know, had the persistence to make those shorts that did well and the luck to have them be well received. But you know, putting these two shorts out there on the circuit, and you know, I was struggling to figure out what my first movie was gonna be. It's a very big thing for a first time directors, you have to figure out what is that first feature? How's it going to announce you and you know, especially today, and you know, even the last few years, you're directing jobs don't really come around a lot, you know, especially when you're at the emerging level, it's very hard to get yourself on movies. So, you know, for me, I realized pretty quickly that if I wanted to make a movie that was going to be my own voice, and was something I wanted to say was the customer really that I wanted to see. I was gonna have to write my way into the director's chair, so to speak. And, you know, I was kicking around, I was like, kind of like, what could that first feature be? You know, I had a few different ideas. And, you know, all of a sudden, one day I was storyboarding for a commercial that I was going to shoot that I was directing. And I was drawing out the images on my couch and I had the TV on the face of Jason Derrick brown just popped on my TV. And I just looked at it and my setup, this is so weird, and I turned the volume up and he was on the covered on the show American Greed, a true crime Docu series, and I just couldn't believe that he was still missing. I couldn't believe that key, like had eluded cancer this whole time it was this charismatic con man. And as I started to watch the story, I just said to myself that I feel like a movie about this guy is the kind of film I grew up loving the film, I would love to see. And I just became completely obsessed. And at first I thought maybe I would try to write the script on spec and sell it because it might be too ambitious for first movie, you know, there's kind of like, principles and what you should do on a first film. And, you know, maybe don't do something with 27 locations and action set pieces, and, you know, an ensemble cast all of these things, which we did for ours. So, you know, we really were, you know, I knew, so at first I thought, maybe I'll just write it. But as I wrote it, I said to myself, I have to direct this, there's no way I can let someone else have it. So, you know, I just became really obsessed with him. So it's the story and kick the idea around, you know, I was lucky to have someone like Matt, who was really in my corner, you know, and Matt, and I might sort of Darfur clear Robinson. And, you know, like, people who just really believe in the project and me as director, you need that in a collaborator, especially with with someone like Matt, who's as an editor just has your back. But you know, it took a while for it to get off the ground. But, you know, we I wrote the script, and I must say, in 2018, first version was kicking around with not much luck and not much response, not a lot of people were really, you know, interested in doing a group grind film about a bad guy just didn't really, you know, it wasn't the easiest sell on paper, so to speak. I went, you know, off not getting the response I want. And I went and did a proof of concept short, where I shot one scene from the movie. And an actor who appeared in that short happen to have a TV show that came out at the time, that was quite big on Netflix. And that started to get a lot of interest in the project. And producers were starting to work come towards me, but some producers wanted without me directing. So it was this big kind of mess. It was very hard to, you know, figure out what what was the best way to go. And then finally, you know, in almost in early 2019, two producers, two production companies converged on me at the same time about the script, trailer Picture Company at GG films. And we went through a really lengthy development process. And you know, where we were, I was working on the script, I was doing my first time getting paid as writers, screenwriter. And, you know, we were trying to figure out when we were gonna go out to test this movie, after about a year development, the world shuts down March 2020. And now we're thinking, how are we going to make this movie happen? And we really didn't know. But, you know, I, in March 2021, the world shut down. The person I spoke to the most was the man in the box below me, Matt Allen. And he said to him, and I said to my cinematographer, and I said, you know, my brother became a poser of that film. I said, everybody who were really, you know, my core team, just really the, the these ones, I said, we're going to act like the movie is shooting tomorrow. And we're going to ask them to shoot tomorrow, and let's just pull up in our apartments and whenever we're not doing whatever we need to do to pay our bills, and let's just work on this. And it was really cool to see because with Matt, especially early on, like March, April 2008, Matt came to me and Matt is a, you know, he's been giving his background but he's too humble to say he's a superstar wunderkind, you know, film editor at AFI was wondering, you know, picked by the top editing editor teacher to come assist them on a Disney film, right in a school and then, you know, one, a nascent Brennan fellowship that like that you had I mean, I can't even tell you how few people get this thing. Like, you know, he won this Oz, he had all these amazing stuff for me where he was like, I can do pre visualization in my apartment, I got one the software from this board thing we can, we can be designing shots right now. And so, you know, in this pandemic time, and like, we were just shut down or locked up, like, met and I've come over to Matt's house, you know, on the weekends, and we would breathe, we've pre visualized the movie and he got me directing again. And you know, that energy that like, you know, creative spark really kept us going and then sure enough, you know, the world was still crazy locked down. But June 2020, we landed our lead actor after persisting, making offer after offer. We finally found the right guy creatively for the project and was a good set in general. And Tom Pelphrey signed on to the movie and then sure enough, while Matt and I were really keeping this project alive, the product really started to build positive momentum. And if Tom Pelphrey King Ryan Phillippe Bay Ryan Phillippe, they brought it got into Evansville interested that led to Jacki Weaver coming on and before we knew it, we had this amazing cast of a list actors coming to be in our movie. And we ended up shooting the film December 2020. And it was really, you know, crazy fast thing that you know, it was a slow burning thing that all of a sudden happened to super fast, you know, and that's often a story around why you guys say that the four letter word without, you know, is that it was like a lot of personal thing. It was a lot of being pulled. No, it was a lot of opposite goals. And, you know, it was like that after we shot the movie to, you know, finishing the movie and then put it you know, editing it with Matt and, and not just editing the map. But also, you know, the year after we finished like getting it out into the world, getting it seen in festivals and getting it seen by critics and getting it you know, all the the movie really like other than getting the amazing cast, we really met. And I always joke that we really never had a break. Like, it was always like, every time we got something it was like, and now the bars are pushed up a little further, and the bar just keeps getting pushed. And so it was a really, you know, intense, crazy experience. But I'm glad I'm so glad I got to do it. And I'm glad I had this guy here because we really, you know, he was my partner in crime all throughout.

Zack Arnold: Amazing, there are about a million and a half threads that I can pull on this, and we're gonna pull on several of them. I'm gonna rewind all the way back to the beginning of at first and, Matt, I promise I will get to you in a second. And you'll have plenty of time. But there's one additional question that I think is going to really factor into a lot of the things we talked about as far as persistence. What I find really interesting about this, is that when I was 14, and I had access to the internet, I was going to boobs.com. And you're going to fbi.gov Right. So what I'm curious about what specifically was it that the the obsession with the FBI and with these agents, and the reason I bring it up on I want to frame it is that it can sound like it's something unique to you. But I think a lot of or most creatives have an obsession or an interest in something. But a lot of times they have a hard time actually turning it into something else. You said I want to be an FBI agent, and maybe I'm not going to end up being an FBI agent. But I can combine this passion for this with my passion for storytelling. So what was it specifically about this kind of story that resonated with you?

Matthew Gentile: It's very interesting, you know, you know, I remember my grandpa died when I was quite young. But we were very close my Italian grandfather Joseph on my dad's side, and he showed me double oh seven when I was I think eight years old. And I remembered loving the romanticism of a secret agent. You know, now the FBI agents, as I've learned, in the years since aren't exactly quite like bond, right? Most of them, in fact, are not, you know, different few field agents and whatnot. But the romanticism of being an agent, someone who fights crime, you know, crime stories, man, I've been attracted to them since forever. It goes back a really long time. I mean, like I said, you know, my father showed me Dog bathroom when I was 12. And you know, I always loved the relationship between the cop and the criminal, the sheriff and the Outlaw, scrub love westerns, which tries to come as a surprise. So, you know, gangsters criminals, like for me as a kid, I wasn't into the normal stuff. You know, most kids my age rented Pokemon, or baseball cards. I was into gangsters, pirates, criminals, con men, you know, that was kind of my those were the stories I was just into. And I think, you know, I always believed also in a sense of, I had a strong sense of justice. As a kid, I was always someone who said, That's not fair. My mother being a Russian Jewish flower girl, that world is not. That's not fair. I get we get really upset when things weren't fair. And I think I saw something that was, you know, the prototype of the FBI agent was somebody who could bring justice, you know, and I think that certainly is felt in our movie, you know, and I think, actually, Ryan Philipe plays last lysing also was very, is very into the FBI website at the top 10 fugitives I learned so you are right, and that there are a lot of people creative types who are interested in this sort of thing. And, you know, there's a lot of studies about true crime that I'm learning now I'm doing some true crime talks, I was on crime con recently they had me and, you know, they actually say there is a link between true crime and empathy, like people who are introduced crime, like, when I remember being like a teenager when I think it was in high school when the Virginia Tech massacre happened. And, you know, there were shootings before that now, they're unfortunately way more common, but either down, but I remember that being a watershed moment like that. Oh, like, you know, because Columbine, I was so young. When that happened, I remember hearing about it, but didn't really register and then Virginia Tech, I was in high school, going to college, and then this thing happened. And I remember that was like, the first time I ever did like an internet rabbit hole where I was just trying to read everything like code on that case, and why did this happen? You know, what, like, how did this kind of thing how this person snap and now it's way more way more common, unfortunately. But, you know, the, I think there is a link between that you know, and and the interest in true crime, I think really apply to anything, you know, it's like, it's characters people. It's like, why do people do what they do? What makes them tick? You know, and I think that's why I love movies. I mean, even like, I think a movie like Lawrence of Arabia, which I saw for the first time when I was told to buy all time favorite film now, it was not at the time I saw it, because at the time I saw it and really get us. What's this guy's deal, dad, you know, when he showed it to me, he's like, the best movie. I was like, No, it's not And now I agree with him, I think it is the best of all time. I've seen that movie 40 times, I still can't tell you what makes that character tick. So I think the detective work, being a filmmaker connects with the detective work being an FBI agent, because you're trying to figure out, you know, I recently have been offered my first green by to direct and I'm looking at the script right now, like a detective, I'm trying to break it down and figure out who these people are, what's their backstory? And why are they the way they are what made them this way. And so I think that's just part of the fun of it. I think it connects and prepares you in a weird way.

Zack Arnold: Well, speaking of what makes people tick, that is what we call in the industry, the perfect segue to my transition to the other member of this call, which is the mat of the mat, and Matthew pare. And Matt's without going too deep into our story, my memory is and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but you came to me via American cinema editors is somebody that was looking for a little bit of guidance and support, and just wanted to learn about next steps in your career. And we had a nice little 30 minute chat on Zoom. And then you just saw a little bit of opportunity, and you just took everything you possibly could every resource, everything available to learn and grow. And I cannot get you off my Zoom calls, I mean that on the best way possible, you are somebody that sees the opportunity and takes it. And if we're talking about this concept or idea of persistence, what I find so interesting and intriguing about the story of both of you, is that the vast majority of people that are either in the entertainment industry, or frankly, in any industry, they would look at something like you do, we're like, oh, this this true crime story about Jason, that's, that's really cool. Somebody should make a movie about this. Ah, you guys are like, we're gonna make the movie about this. And all these obstacles along the way. So Matt, tell me a little bit more about what it is about either you or Matthew, or both of you, that makes you the kind of people that instead of saying, I can't wait to see when somebody makes a movie about the story. You know, what? We're going to be the ones that do it?

Matt Allen: It's a really good question. Yeah. So there's nothing to correct. There. It's just you have a lot of really great resources with you and your community and the type of people that are that are in your community that are very giving that give advice, whether it comes to you know, things like resumes, or you're trying to get that next job interview. So it seemed like a great opportunity to, to get plugged in with your community. And it's great to be a member of that. I would say in terms of Matthew knee, I think that he's got a lot of energy, as you can probably tell on this call. He's someone who really is really great, I think at the big at the big picture and getting people really excited to get on his team. And he crafts a really great, just a really great team together as well as he had a really great script. And I think that was kind of the two things for me at the time that really attracted me to like beyond beyond this project. And really help him get to that finish line was the script that he had written, he had spent all this time I knew about it for quite some time. But I'd seen it evolve. And it was something I was like this is a good script, I can see this play. And it read well, even before he shot it. And he was very passionate about getting really great cast members. And he was just really much a bulldog in terms of the energy that he was providing all the time. And then you just kind of saw all the other people that are starting to come around him. And even during this kind of maybe weird time where it's where it's COVID, we had that persistence, we kept that persistence. And at least one of the early things I was able to provide in Matthew was prevous. And really, the idea behind that was one of my first big jobs was working at Disney on Disney is Christopher Robin. And one of my first job was being an assistant editor during the previous part. So it was on the previous stage watching this all go down again, this is for like an 80 to $100 billion movie where they have all the resources to do that. And they're spending millions of dollars on prevas. So I'm thinking how can I partner I normally work a lot. As an assistant editor. I'd spent several years as a high level studio assistant editor, how do I partner with this indie filmmaker, first time feature filmmaker and provide skills that I know from like $100 million movies to this movie? How do I do that? Well, and previous was kind of the first thing I thought, oh, I can do this. And so we were able to do the software program that's not the same as what they use on the big stuff. They're usually using something like Maya, on the big movies, we were using a program that I highly recommend no sponsorship deal here at all, but it's called shot Pro. And it's really good. And we were able to kind of make these really high level storyboards, pre visit previous images, where you can mess with the lighting, you can have camera moves lenses, and really got Matthew directing. And he was able to, I think really hone in on what he needed with his shot list. I mean, we were able to like okay, I want to spray this scene up. I don't need half the shots now. But we spent all that time sitting in my apartment, rather than him Trying to figure that out on a set where he's got like, one day per location. And that was a big thing. And he had told me like going into this movies, like, you're not going to be able to get much feedback, like, I'm going to be on a location. And then I gotta move the next day. So like, if we're missing something, unless it's like an insert, or like, you know, establishing shots, and probably can't get it for you. So we had to go in very prepared. And obviously, he deviated and the actors brought so much and our cinematographer brought so much and production designer, like it was very much a full team effort. But I think having those kind of initial conversations, particularly because I wasn't on location with them at all, I was back in Los Angeles cutting, and they would send me the dailies, and so we would talk over the phone. But I think having all that prep time, we were very much on the same page. And I think that allowed us to have a lot further, like cut, because we had had all those conversations, you have to still do all this work together. And you have to be a great partner with the director. But I think one of the things I was most excited by this project was like, how do you take these high level skills, these high level tools that you have on these big movies? And how do you go down to kind of an independent level and you empower these independent filmmakers? That's personally what excites me because like, you work on a couple of really big movies. And at some point, you're like, Okay, I know how this goes. But like empowering independent filmmakers, as an editor that gets me excited because you're giving people a shot. And it's like, how do you empower them with like the same kind of tools that the big, you know, 100 million dollar or $200 million people have? It's not necessarily have the same tool. But can you have the same mindset, and the same type of prep?

Zack Arnold: So one of the other things I'm curious about specific to your journey, Matt, is that I know that originally, the started obviously, is just an idea and Matthew's head, then all of a sudden you get a few people on board, get a couple of production companies and eventually get distribution from Lionsgate. But I'm curious, was there a point at which somebody said, and I doubt it was Matthew, but somebody said, Wait, hold on a second, we're gonna get an assistant editor just out of AFI. That's going to be the lead editor of this movie. Did that conversation ever come across at any point from any producer, director, distributor financier?

Matt Allen: I think Matthew can probably speak to that more. I mean, my attitude, he can probably speak to that backstory, my attitude was, I was using the previous as an audition, because I knew they didn't want to hire me, like they want. He's a first time director, they wanting him to hire more experienced people,

Zack Arnold: they always want the veterans with the first time director says they need somebody that knows what they're doing, right?

Matt Allen: Yeah, so the previous was kind of my way of auditioning. That was my math, you can speak to what the internal conversations were with the producers, I've never really had that conversation with a producer, it was more of like, keep going keep doing previous keeping involved with the project. And eventually, like, we got to the point where I could get a Deal Memo, like, but it was not, it was very rocky, and there was points where I'm like, this isn't maybe going to work out. And all the previous I was doing was for free. Like it was just basically, here's my gamble. Matthew is gonna get to do this movie, I may not get to do it with him. But at least I've given a shot. At least I've aired out the towel. I've done everything in my power. And if it doesn't work out, doesn't work out. But Matthew can probably also speak to what the behind the scenes conversations that I didn't know about or

Matthew Gentile: Yeah, you know, it's funny, because a lot of times, as you pointed out, first time directors, when they get the big first movie, the producers or the company, or you know, if there's a studio involved, they say great, we're so excited to have you, we're gonna put you with all these people. You know, my producers didn't really do that they suggested, you know, maybe you want to work with some people who have done a movie or two before. I never really want to curse on this or not. Absolutely, go ahead and be yourself. I never wanted to them to check. You know, because I had certain directors who had made their first movie, I was lucky that, you know, I was one of the younger students at AFI. But it took me a very long time to get my, I took a it's taken everybody I know, a really long time to get their movies made. Like, I think mine was like a four and a half year journey. I think for like, you know, violent brothers seven or eight years, you know, it's nothing surprised me in terms of how long it can take. But you know, I got to watch a lot of people go before me, or watch quite a few people in the class above me or two classes above me. So I got to see. And I noticed that there was a unity amongst the people who had kept their teams versus the people who had the people who hadn't and kind of, you know, I'm not gonna say they sold out, I get it, like, you know, it's hard. And you know, so I understand that. I don't think anyone's sold out by saying, okay, my works on three movies. But I noticed that people who did that told me kind of later on down the road, they're like, you know, they were really more of the producers versus the studios person and this and that. And, you know, that's not to say you can't work with people who are more experienced than you sometimes it's great to have certainly every actor on this movie was 10 1000 times more experienced me, right, Bill bass been doing this for 25 years, you know, so they're, you know, people are cut and I love that. But I felt strongly that when it came to my team, I didn't want to go with people who, you know, I wanted to go with my people bomb because, you know, when it came to say my Sinjar for collarbones like I've worked with ever since, you know, 2016. So having that shorthand on set, we really helped me and helped, she understood my vision better than anyone. And in terms of Matt, you know, Matt came in, you know, with prevas. And that's, you know, he was like, I'm gonna bring this to the table. And I was very straight up with him in that. And also with Khalil, and everybody who worked in this project, we were like, in that year before I was like, Look, I had in my closet mutual approval on who was going to be my department as so that's a good clause to get, you know, means they can't make you work with somebody don't want to, but they also get to have their say 5050 deal. And, you know, I said to everybody, look, we're gonna get close to prep, and, you know, I'm going to do my best, like, you know, we're going to, you know, we're going to make it happen. And I was a little like, sweating at one point, because, you know, when the finding the producers seemed to be cool with my team, but when the financiers were on, we didn't have a golf they would get. But you know, once I saw a mat in action, in previous, it kind of became very clear to me, I was like, there is no way I could not have this guy editing this movie, I don't really care what his grasp is, I just see that this is a guy. And also, it's a lot like me, I'm a first time director, is going to be his first big movie. You know, it's Khalil, his first big movie, my brother, Scott, who did the score, it's his first big movie is his first movie period. So it's a lot of people coming at it, but that and I think that comes off in the movie, it's the hunger that we have, you know, it's all of us coming in, we're excited, we're ready to do this. And the producers were really impressed by them. You know, they were really excited to see it. And let's be real. They weren't expensive, because Matt Elam is the next, you know, Thelma Schoonmaker. So cheap, as far as they're concerned, you know, and so I think it at the end of the day, it, it actually was something that really benefited. And you know, as movie costs now have gotten so low on independent films, because the budgets just aren't what they used to be, I actually think this might become more of a trend, because it makes sense to bet on young talent. Because they can deliver, you know, most of the time, and it doesn't cost as much. So that's a note my note to producers who might be listening to this, you know, give give the young guns a chance, because they'll be they're going to work really hard, and they're gonna try to prove themselves. That's certainly what Matt did. And by the end of it, I mean, you know, I don't think any good strategy helps during that. I mean, he really went above and beyond impressed all but

Zack Arnold: Well, a couple of things that I want to pull out of this that I think are really important. If I step out of the relationship between the two of you, and I'm thinking to myself, I'm, whether it's an editor or composer, Director, or director of photography doesn't really matter. But in the case of Matt, right, you Matthew had such a bond with him and understood that this is my guy, and he gets the story. Let's say I had come along me personally. And instead of, hey, heard about this American Murder thing, I've got plenty of experience, I'm available, I would like to cut it. What I have on my resume is not going to overcome the emotional bond and the trust that you have with Matt. Right. And I think it's important for a lot of people that are putting themselves out there looking for work, whether it's trying to work with either first time directors or you want to work for big time, directors, big time. showrunners we always think it's just about the experience on the resume. It's about here are the things that I've done, but personal relationships are at the core of all of this. And the bond was there. They were like, Yeah, you can send me Walter merch, I'd be happy to do a meeting with Walter merch mats cutting my movie. Right.

Matthew Gentile: And I feel that way right now. Yeah. So my next movie. Oh,

Zack Arnold: he does kind of resemble Thelma. I don't know, there's something about there. There's a little bit of resemblance there. So I liked that. The next one was gunmaker. Where I want to go next. And frankly, either of you can answer this, but I'll bounce it back to Matt and Matthew, if you want to chime in, you guys can banter back and forth. But I'm always trying to understand what is the essence or the inception, the inception of a specific mindset, or idea that drives everything. And to me, it's pretty obvious. And when you and I had our original conversation, Matthew, I went back to my notes, and I had this giant bowl all capital letters. And it was the idea that you both told yourselves, this is going to happen. How do you keep going forwards when a million and a half things happen? That tell you oh, maybe this isn't going to happen? Maybe the universe is telling us? This is a stupid idea. Let's just go give up and work for the man. You have the mindset this is going to happen. That's one thing. How do you keep that mindset when the adversity is telling you otherwise? I'll start with you, man. But I'll let you guys both go back and forth.

Matt Allen: I think that's a really good question I think a lot of it was drawing on is honestly mentorship, I think having people that have done it before you that you can rely on like yourself or there's other I've been very fortunate other as mentors like Matt JSA, Kevin tent on bombard like, these are big time editors and you can like, and I'm very lucky that I can pick up a phone and talk to these people. And you hear their journeys, and you're like, okay, they did that, like they had to overcome these things. Like they had to do this for the first time. Like, you always have to do something you've never done for the first time for the first time, if you want to keep going. So you hear these guys's stories. And I think that was motivating for me of like, okay, these guys did it. They've gotten they've had these amazing 20 3040 Plus careers, years careers. And I think that was very motivating, to me is like, when we would have weird things happening, it was definitely a shot in the dark. I mean, we're doing this in the middle of COVID, I was concerned all the time, in the back of my head, I'm gonna call from Matthew or some of the production, like, oh, we have half a movie shot. And we don't know when we can go back. Like that was a real concern throughout this film, and then you obviously are working with the independent budget, and you have to get very creative in terms of how you finish your movie. Well, we had a lot of really great people come alongside us. And we're like, you know, lowering their rates, dropping their fees a little bit, because they saw the passion and energy and they saw that we were prepared. That's how we were able to overcome some of these budgetary things is that we Matthew in particular, knew what he wanted, and then was able to empower me and the other department heads to deliver very well. So we weren't like taking tons and tons of time that would cost money. So I think those were like two of the big things is like, again, being super prepared, knowing what you want, but also having people that can help you along the way that have done it before. That doesn't necessarily have to be the people on your team. It does help. I was drawing a lot of like, okay, I haven't been maybe sitting in the chair. But I've been sitting in the chair next to the chair. And I've seen this model several several times. So what would they do in this situation? Like, what is the editor that I've assisted for several times? What would they do? What would they do, and you hear people's stories. And we've talked a lot about the power of story. Because that, you know, interest in personal journeys. And I would think about like these editor's personal journeys, and you hear them talk about and their Q and A's and their interviews. And you're like, Okay, you're like I'm on that I'm on that journey. Right now. I'm, I'm the process, I'm not the destination, but I'm on that journey. And we're still on that journey right now, still very early on in the career in the career. But I think it's very exciting when you get to partner, you know, with people who are taking risks at the independent level, because there are a lot of really cool indie films going on right now. And I think that's the fun is like finding those new cool and indie voices. And I know for my personal skill set, I'm not a starter. But I'm a finisher, I can take you to the finish line, if you gave me the ideas and some of the tools I can take you there. And I think that's also why Matthew and I complement each other were well in terms of our different skill sets.

Zack Arnold: It's funny, you and I are the polar opposite in that respect, because I am very much a starter and not a finisher, and need a whole support community around me to make sure actually get something to the finish line. I'll give you ideas all day long. Love the ideas, generate all the ideas in the world, then I get about two thirds of the way through and I'm like, Alright, now this is just work. I want to create and generate more ideas. And the only reason anything ever exists in the universe. That was an idea that becomes a reality. As I surround myself with people that actually helped me get it to the finish line. So Matthew, I don't know if you can relate to that. But I would love to know more about how you when you were confronted with the realities of maybe you're not going to make this happen. You continue to say, oh, no, this is going to happen.

Matthew Gentile: Yeah, I mean, you know, your riddle across the journey with self doubt and anxiety. You know, certainly I mean, this was door to door four year journey more when you factor the distribution part of it, but for some counting, getting the movie made from idea to there, and, you know, it's like a college right? And you got to grow up through it in a weird way. And for me, you know, I remember like, the first year was kind of like, Yeah, this is the movie I'm gonna make. I felt pretty certain about it. But I remembered there was one, I think a year in like, I sent the script to a bunch of people. I got all passes. Nobody wanted it. I wasn't sure but I still felt it. I was like, Okay, this sucks. I feel the rejection. But I know I have to make this movie so I'll find another way. And I called my mentor also a man I are both big, big believers in mentorship and I've had the fortune great mentors and I have a great mentor Brian Daniel is very prolific TV director, film director. His first movie was film called Save that became a huge class. So, and he always talked about his journey making ceviche similar that took four or five years. And he said to me something that really stuck, which was he said, he called me after I got the rejections because someone I rejected was a friend of his who he knew. And he, like, hooked me up with the guy was like, I like you, but I like your scripts. And I was like, Okay, talk to Brian, Brian ghosts. You know, Matthew, I know sucks. I was there. But I had a belief inside of me, all the years that saved was gonna get paid, no matter what, I think you have to have that. Like, if something like this knocks your boat down, then you don't want to get back up, then it's like, then you move on and find the thing that knots. And I think that's, you know, it's funny, because, like, an idea, right? For a movie, like this thing goes back so far, right? Like, when I was 14, I saw Jason's face for the first time. So it was always in there, and it came out. Right. And I think that, you know, sometimes when, you know, I mean, film careers are tricky, you know, and I was kind of, of the mindset from the game, like, you have to be a director that you have to self generate, you have to create your own stuff, because people are just handing out jobs and yatta yatta. But with American Murder, I just really felt in my bones and like God, that it was a story that had to be told. And so I had to do whatever I could to get it made. And if it meant finding the right budget for if it meant, you know, whatever it was if it meant rethinking it and all this. And the truth is, as a movie over that time, it just what really happened was it started out much smaller group, it grew bigger and bigger and bigger. And I did and I'm like you in that I'm a starter as well. I have lots of ideas all the time. I can't write enough for them. I'm always like, coming up with stuff. And I also need people to get me to the finish line. And that's part of why Matt does complement me super well, because he is someone who's great at finishing things and polishing and the details of all that. And so I know that I need that. But um, yeah, I think you know, especially if you're a director, and one thing about directing is usually we both have a great mentor, who is a librarian, and AFI is no longer there. But unfortunately, it was named Robert Vaughn. And I remember, one time when I was studying at finite UEFI, we made our thesis films, man, they were different classes, but we knew each other there. And I didn't get the team I wanted at the time, and I was unsure how I would like, you know, it's kind of one of the picked last films. And I was doubting myself as a result of it. I couldn't get my own script greenlit. And if I had a greenlight process, and I was in the library one day, just kind of almost like bad mouthing myself, I was like, Yeah, I don't know, if I'm gonna be able to do this, you know, should I even come back. But while I was kind of being a brat, and the librarian calls me into his office, but Robert Vaughn, he sits me down, he says, Matthew, is a nice guy long as if I'm out of line here, please, let me know. But I've been at the school for a while, I've seen all kinds of movies come through in and out of here. And I saw you and I heard you bad about yourself, like, self deprecating. And, you know, I know you don't mean anything, like you're being mean or anything like that, but you're a director, your job is to not only tell a story, but to inspire people and get the best out of them. And to, you know, get them to do their best work. And if you don't have that confidence within yourself, you're never going to be able to do it with other people. And thinking about it. Now I like want to grab rubber bullets, which I think I did time. You know, but it's so true, what he said in that, you know, to be a director, like you have to have that belief. And you know, and it's not arrogance, that's bad, because that you there are good directors, they usually get there. A certain point, you know, it's not about the ego trip of being a director, I got the guy and or woman in charge and law was bullshit. Not directing has nothing to do with that, like, perspective. But you have to have, I think that confidence in yourself in the story you're telling, because otherwise, you're not gonna be able to get 100 people on a set or 1000. To do the shot, you need to tell the story you want to tell work, you know, to inspire someone like Matt Allen, who is busy and gets, you know, high paying studio gigs and develops to to want to give seven, eight months a year plus of his life to this little movie, you know, you have to kind of you know, or get Ryan Phillippe to come to Utah on 18 degrees. I mean, you got to really have that. So it's kind of a baseline requirement. And I would say to anyone who feels like maybe they don't have the story, they want it or they have a story that, you know, the story cut also has to come to you, you have to be able to let that story in. You know, because there's a lot of things that might seem appealing. I want to make a genre movie, I wanna make this kind of, I think, knowing that something you know, when it comes from within an innuendo and I think harness that and then then once you have that confidence in knowing, okay, this is the story I want to tell, and I can then you can Bring out people. But it's hard if you don't have that feeling within yourself, that's kind of markets.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, there's there's about a million and a half mic drop moments in there. Which is really great insights. And the two that I really want to highlight that are thinker are really important is just kind of reiterating what you said is that you knew you had this belief inside of you, and you had to follow it. This is something that I experienced all day, every day on a regular basis, when I have somebody text me or message me or call me saying, Hey, we've got this big TV show, are you available to edit it? Technically, yes, I'm available, and I could cut it for you tomorrow. But I believe so wholeheartedly in the work that I'm doing now. And building this program and getting my students in creating this curriculum. Short term is a checkers move, like this is kind of dumb, I'm turning away a lot of money. This is a lot of work. I'm basically throwing my money into a giant dumpster fire, trying to build a team around me to make it happen. But what I've told my team so many times, is that I completely and totally believe in what we're doing. Right now, the process, it's kind of a shitshow. Because I'm trying to figure out how to do it. And we're making mistakes, and we're not as efficient as we could be. And we're not as effective as we could be. But I believe in the mission, and I believe in the larger direction that we're going. But the other mic drop moment that I think is an even bigger one. You can't get people to come along with you and believe in you until you believe in yourself first. I mean, you want to talk about a life changing moment. It sounds like that was very much a life changing mic drop moment for you.

Matthew Gentile: Absolutely. Yeah, he's a great guy. He's someone who, you know, he's absolutely we showed him a cut of our movie, and he gave her best notes, like anyone. And yeah, you know, and you need people like that, you know, like, I'm telling you the truth, also in a gentle way. You know, it wasn't like, you know, saying, Hey, you just came in and told the truth and so on. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it stayed with me, it stays in the all time because yeah, you can't, you know, and when you're in a leadership position, I think it doesn't just apply to writing, but editing is a leadership, you know, producing as a leadership positions, geography and you know, how many jobs out there that leaders I think, to be a good leader, you have to have that. Otherwise, it's very hard to get people to come.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, well, speaking of of leadership, and mentorship, this is going to be the segue to specifically roping Matt back into the conversation. Because up until essentially the distribution phase, getting into festivals, trying to get people to notice you getting yourself on podcasts and whatnot. I'm, I'm gonna, you know, interject myself in the story at this point, just because that's the whole reason we're here today. But the importance of mentorship, the importance of guidance, and the importance of developing the skill of outreach is essential to the latter portion of your journey. So Matt, talk to me a little bit more about were the things that you learned throughout the program with me starting to be brought into your project and getting it to where it is now, specifically, the most important part is when Matthew was making fun of you for your outreach formula.

Matt Allen: Yeah, yeah. So I think I took I was taking your class, and we were kind of getting to the, it's the advance bands networking class to be specific. And part of it was trying to work on getting my name out there letting people know, as we talked about, that's like, you know, yes, I've done a lot of since the editing, but I can edit. And I think that's also a lot of that class is about mindset, how to interview well, you know, asking really good questions in interviews to make sure that you are lining yourself up for a successful situation. And maybe not just going after any job not doing this kind of spray and pray, like being very surgical. And I definitely having the eggs and bread and fellowship and having a lot of doors opened up just kind of with the world I've lived in kind of Hollywood studio system of being able to cold outreach while really helped me in terms of gain mentorship, which was like, even during my edit, like having people that I trusted, that are working at a very high level, watch our movie really helps Barna. So that was one that was one thing, too, is like you have to start forming relationships with people who are going to help promote your movie. And so one of the big things that we were doing is like, honestly, we were just asking lots of people because it was our first rodeo. Because like we were asking people that who had submitted to film festivals for like, how do you do this? We were talking to programmers, and we weren't like going into like, we have the most amazing movie ever. We were like, Hi, we're trying to learn how to submit to film festivals. Well, can we ask you a question or two? Even better? Could I have permission to ask you a question or two, and that will ring a big bell. So people who've done the program, but I think kind of the big things of like, learning is like how do you call the Outreach? Well, how do you create relationships with people and I think oftentimes, you know, you want to be an editor, you want to create relationships with other editors. And that's really important and that's kind of what we also talk about. In that class too, is like, you want to be talking to people that are five to 10 years ahead of you, you don't necessarily have to be talking to the person who won the Academy Award this past year, but people that they're an expert, if they're, you know, five years ahead of you, that's an expert that you can learn a lot from. But besides editors, it's like, Is there new up and coming directors that might be worthwhile that are maybe a not unknown entity that you might be able to create a bond with? I was fortunate that I went to AFI, and I was able to, like, just be around people like Matthew, like Matthew and I hadn't worked together ever until American murder. So there were some convincing that had to happen. It wasn't like, oh, yeah, this guy cut all my thesis films, and AFI, he's my guy, it was like, he had to, he had to see my skills up close. And I had to believe that if I got an opportunity to work with them, that he might hire me. But the other thing too, was, I think the big thing is like talking to PR people, programmers, just talking to other producers. I mean, we did some like, interesting, cold outreach just to other people that you're like, oh, man, I don't think anyone's gonna respond to this, but people would, because if you write a good cold outreach, email, people will respond. And I think even better, it's like, alright, if you get to have that, that phone call, or that like in person meeting, it's like, really value that person's time well, and come prepared, be on time, have good questions, be respectful of their time. And kind of a big thing that one of my mentors said to me early on, and I have to give him credit match essay, that I try to do well as a mentee. But also when I am in a leadership position, is that timeliness is not a line item in the budget. Like that, for me, is what I try to do every day when I'm like, if I'm sitting in the editing chair, when I've been in the assistant editing chairs, like, if that's going to be the thing, that's my thing, at least when I try to walk into a room is like they're there, you cannot put a price on that. And it's given freely. That's not there's no it's not because I'm on some certain project, or I'm getting paid this amount of money, or I'm not getting this paid amount money, or it's my passion project or not my passion project. That's what I want to lead with. And it's like, if you can lead with that all the time as either a mentor or a mentee, I think you're ahead of so many people in Hollywood, because most people don't operate like that.

Zack Arnold: Wow, I love it. I'm going to create an entire bumper sticker slash t shirt line. This is kindness is not a line item in the budget. That easily in and of itself could be a 90 minute podcast conversation. But where I would like to go next in this is my favorite part of the story. Matthew's first impressions of my outreach strategy, tell me a little bit more about how this

Matt Allen: he made fun of me so much for this, like, I remember starting out let him go here in a second. He's laughing. But he made fun of me so much, because I'm taking your class and I had done some cold outreach, and I was seeing some results. I was talking to some people i i People have blown me off before where people I felt really uncomfortable reaching out to and I was getting responses. I was like, this works like providing value. Knowing what your story is, and having a very clear cut ask like, yes, this works. And I would show I even had like the whole depressed new technique, pamphlet worksheet. And I texted to Matthew and was like, this is the most silly, most nonsense, this doesn't work. You got to be kidding me. Like, are you actually paying for that class? Like, he was all over me. He razz me for like two or three weeks. I was like, just try it. Just try it. And he started trying it.

Zack Arnold: So yeah, let's talk to me about that. Matthew, I'm very interested.

Matthew Gentile: Well, I'm naturally a very skeptical person. And I'm usually not skeptical things Matt Allen does. He's pretty logical and pragmatic. So I'm like, but he told me about this class. And I was just like, I don't know, man, like a class on how to write emails, like just write an email, like, what do you want? And, you know, but I was trying to get on people's maps and you know, get people to see our movie and whatnot, and wasn't getting as many responses as I hoped. Every now and then some would look past the bad email I'd written and be like, Oh, this was kind of cool. But generally, you know, once men really brought this to me, and I realized, you know, I consider what you do to be kind of almost like screenplay structure. And uh huh. But you're like the, you're like the John Truby of it. Meaning like John is the organic one. And he like tells you this is how you can do it but he isn't like prescribe a formula like I want to badmouth the other books but you know, the bad screenwriter booksellers they this is how you write a script and you do your back one and you have your inciting you know,

Zack Arnold: are you familiar, by the way did that to interrupt but are you familiar with Chris Vogler in the writers journey.

Matthew Gentile: I haven't read him, but I heard he's amazing.

Zack Arnold: Yes, the reason I bring it up is because he talks about the hero's journey and broke it down into something simple. I literally just recorded a podcast with Chris Vogler. 10 minutes before I got on with you guys talking about the idea of how what we're doing is essentially learning how to tell our own story. And that's what you do in outreach. So I just I had to interrupt you just because the Kismet of the fact that I recorded these two together and you said that I just had to point that out.

Matthew Gentile: Yeah, my girlfriend has that book in our apartment. And now I'm compelled to because I've heard amazing things about him. Yeah, we're writing something together. And we we talked about that. She talks about it a lot. And I started off but yeah, I've heard he's great, too. And yeah, I think that, you know, like, what you do with email, like consider like that, where, you know, once Matt showed me and I laughed, and I saw the phrase do fresney technique because of Shawshank Redemption. But you know, it really, once I started using it, and Matt, show me how to do it properly. I realized like how effective it is. And all it really is, is I see it now having used it for about, and this is not a paid sponsorship. Having used it for like the past, I don't know, six months plus, is that it's actually it's not a formula, it's not a script, it's putting a little more thought and care into your writing when you approach someone. You know, there's any advice I could have. And people say that for me, when I started out, you know, I would always want to meet people, you know, I want to fucking meet everyone like, and I was, I would my first job in the industry was working as an assistant, William Morris Endeavor. And, you know, our Emanuel, the CEO of William Morris, used to say cold call cold email. And it was very good lesson, I learned early to do that. And I would I would get responses I would get people sit with me. But what I didn't know at being a dumb 22 year old was when you sit down with say, like, I got a chance to tell the big time, I won't name a TV director. And I could tell I was kind of annoying you because asking questions and whatever. And, you know, he kind of looked at me and I saw on this guy's face, he was like, I want to help this guy. But I don't know how. And I think if you can figure out when you approach someone, whether it's an editor you want to whether someone you want to work with, or somebody want to ask advice for is figure out how they can help you before you approach them. Because everyone's really busy. Everyone has a ton of things to do. You know, and it seems like industry people have tons of scripts to read movies to watch or screeners to get through. So, you know, and you stress it in your in your work, which is, you know, make sure you know, your ask is, you know, if you're asking someone to sit down and read a 120 page screenplay, they're going to want to get back. But maybe they'll read five pages, right? So think about what you're asking someone and I think I all I think it is is I think it's not formula. I don't see it as that kind of thing. I think it's just putting more thought and care into how and when you approach people. But yeah, first I made fun of Matt also just kind of personalities.

Zack Arnold: I would make fun of it, too. Let's just be perfectly,

Matthew Gentile: though, and I'll be like, Hi, you know, just how it is.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, but it's funny because it goes back to what you were talking about, where you just have to have a strong belief in what you're doing. Because there are so many people that have the same reaction like, like, I'm going to spend money to learn how to write an email, how stupid is that providing value? What does that even mean, right? But I just I have such a strong belief in the results that this gets in the fundamental shift in mindset about how I believe all of us can interact and collaborate together and allow the tide to lift all of the boats instead of everybody just kind of clamoring, and it's all about me and my success and my story. I don't believe Hollywood has to be that way anymore. And to me, this is one of those vehicles to get to, like, we're all gonna lift each other up. And what I want to hit on here, that's so important. And Matt, you can go into this even further. But you touched upon this, right? It's that people don't know how to help you, right? I always say over and over again. I'm like, if I'm going to sell a t shirt or sell a poster, it would say it's not that people don't want to help you is that they don't know how to help you. Right in this process allows you to more clearly tell your story, which then in turn does provide value to another person because I firmly believe the majority of people in this industry do want to help other people. But we're so shit it communicating what we actually need. You're like, I don't know how to help you. Okay, finally, I guess I'll answer some of your questions. But I don't really have time because I'm busy as opposed to I understand your journey. I was on your journey. I want to help somebody that was in a similar position. And you've made it clear how I can do that, which is actually more valuable to me. Right. So Matt, talk to me a little bit more about some of the results you've been able to get by making it clear how people can help you.

Matt Allen: I mean, I think the big thing was like, a lot of it, a lot of the outreach was, you know, how do you how do you get more out To the opportunities and talking with editors who maybe have four or five credits or at a kind of mid career, some of them are, you know, at the more kind of fully established, but you, for example, it's like you start when you talk to somebody, it's like, I'm not going to talk to him about their academy award winning film. Like, I'm not at that position. Yeah. But I'm, I'm very interested in like, How'd you get your first couple movies? Like, that's the part that where I'm in my journey, where I'm most interested is like, how do you start getting some momentum in that journey? And I think that's when you can, like, you're very focused. And then someone can be like, oh, yeah, this is what, this is what happened with me, and you can start to see similarities when you talk to multiple people. And you also, as you talked about, you get a level of empathy. You're like, oh, yeah, I remember what I, you know, when I was at the beginning of my career, and I was still working on getting my first couple of credits, I remember how hard that was. And so it's very like focused. If you're like, You're being very clear about where, where am I stuck? And you're asking those really honed in questions, not just like, Oh, what, like what editing software are using? Or like, you know, what's this? It's like, asking really good questions, I think will also bring about really good mentorship. And I think, because people don't want to bad mentee, and they don't have time for it. And most people don't want a mentee really, either. They don't have like, just the brain processing power for it. But I do think if you can cultivate mentorship type of relationships, and you talk about in your program, there's different types of mentors. And it's like, knowing what that person can provide to is like some people, they just don't have time. And that's okay. Some people do have some bandwidth, or you have similarities in your origin story that connect you more closely together, or you have people that you just have that synergy. And you really work well together. I mean, I was fortunate, and I didn't really know who he was before he started teaching but like, a great example is like Matt HSA who I met at AFI. He came in for one year. And he taught for he was full time, he still was taught several years after that. But was mainly the the department head at AFI for the one year, I was in my final year at AFI. And we had worked on a movie as separate times, but we had worked on the same movie. And so I was like, oh, okay, we have a credit in common. I knew some of his films, but we just like really hit it off. And I was helping him out. It was like, whatever this person needs, I'm going to help them out. Because this person has a lot of experience. And I want to go where this person has been. And I will say like Matt's a really great teacher. But I felt like Matt taught in a way that was very differently than most people teach is like it was purely osmosis. Most of the learning I've done from someone like that. And most learning I've done from great mentors is not like they sit down with you. And they teach you a lesson or they're showing you this film. And they're telling you what's awesome, is you just have to watch and you have to watch really well. And I felt like that's what Matt did like during his year at AFI is like you're just watching how he's handling things. You you hear anecdotes, you hear stories, you hear how he's like talking about working with other department heads. He was great about giving us field trips and different things. And that was all part of that is like how do you how do you watch? Well, when you're on the job? Like if you're an assistant editor, you better be watching that editor. Well, how are they? How are they doing their job? Well, and sometimes it's not a good way. And I want to I don't want to say that sometimes you're watching someone and you're like, Ooh, I shouldn't do that. Or if I do do that this is what happens. So it's not always like you Oh, you don't always have the positive Roma. I've been fortunate that almost all of them have been positive. But occasionally you get those where they're not positive. And so you learn to like, oh, when I'm in charge, or I'm sitting in that chair, I want to deal with this differently, or I want to mirror what that person did. So I think that's kind of been a key for me in terms of like a lot of things that we've talked about in the program was like, how do you mirror the traits that you want to become? Because it's like, I think that's really important. Like you have to have good process. And then the results will come. And I think you've talked about that with me a lot sometimes as being a student is like, there are things you can control and there's things you can't control and it's snowing, when you goal set. What are those things that you can control? And what are the things that are outside of you know, of your potential opportunity. It's like you can't as an editor, you know, Matthew has this luxury that I don't have he can sit down and write a script that's not what I'm personally interested in. You know, he's very good at that. i He's a really good screenwriter and so he can generate he can start a movie. My job is and my skill set is a finisher. So I'm not looking to you know, start a movie from scratch and direct it so I have a movie to edit. So you can you can do all these things. as well, I have good process. But there is like a and I've had really high in editors telling me this, you're not fully in control, you have to be prepared to be in the right place, and then take advantage of that opportunity. So it's not luck. It's about putting yourself in the right places, and then being prepared to take advantage of that opportunity. And American Murder really felt like that, for me, and I felt like I was able to channel a lot of things I had been learning for many years as a studio system editor, and bring that level of professionalism down to like an indie level, because when you're working in the level, you don't have all the safeguards that you have at a studio level, and there's not everything's down on the rails, and there's not like a super tight, you know, schedule, it's like, you got to have to impose that structure on the project that you're doing. And I felt like that was something I was able to do. And I have to give credit to Matthew for allowing me to, like have so much creative control, and that he was trusting, I also just have to give a shout out to like all the other department heads clear cinematographer Scott, who's a musical virtuoso, like amazing musician that we were able to collaborate so well together, and do a score fully remote during the middle of a pandemic. I mean, I think I think what a great part of filmmaking is, is that and I felt this on American Murder, and I want to try to take this with me, is when you get a film in the can I think as an editor, you feel like this sense of responsibility to like everybody who just like sacrifice themselves on a film set, because I don't like being on the film set. But they like they have their blood, sweat, and tears on that film set. Matthew has been writing this film for how many years, and then I gotta take it to the finish line. But then I have all these other people with me in post production, life's got his brother, like our sound mixer, colorist, all the other people on our team, and you feel a sense of responsibility to finish it? Well, because all these people, they're not particularly a project like this, they're not doing it for the money. This isn't like, Oh, great. You know, it's not Netflix or Amazon or Hulu or wherever they're able to just like spend tons and tons of money. It's not, it's not that situation where it's like a huge studio movie, people are doing it because they see your passion. And they sense that you are going to take this somewhere special. So I feel like that sense of responsibility, I do not want to lose.

Zack Arnold: Oh, good for you. I appreciate the fact that you understand that role. And I have no doubt that you and I are going to be having a conversation and give or take five or 10 years where you're holding your Oscar and everybody's saying it's the next day on the screen maker, I mean, just the Dead Ringer uncanny resemblance, I want to come back to you to finish up talking a little bit more about next steps and the clarity of goals. Because you and I had a really interesting conversation yesterday, at least as far as when we recorded today's conversation, that I think at least shedding a little bit of light on that for the people listening would be helpful. But I want to put a pin in that for a second. Because I want to go back to you know, Matthew, and I want to go back to this idea of the very specific tangible results that you have seen from doing the right kinds of cold outreach. For the film specifically, or for the next steps in your journey.

Matthew Gentile: I did think they heard on 30 Plus podcasts or more, I think actually 60. I did 30 film related I did like 20 true crime related. So you know 50 interviews, but without hiring a publicist for $5,000 a month. So that's what that would have cost easily and they would have probably gotten not even like maybe a 10th those. So, you know, and that's the cap, the monetary value is not really what what's important here. You know, it's it's really factoring. It's also the relationships built. You know, we use that called outreach to build religious festivals, the festival that gave us our world premiere at Tamina. And consistently, or we got to have a world premiere in June and, you know, the film career in the theater builds in 300 BC. And, you know, we got to be friends for Coppola, you know, had I not had the courage to look up the head of the festival and write them and ask, Hey, will you look at my film? Yeah, look, I could have just submitted it. Same thing that everyone else does. But you know, something I you know, when Matt brought your cold outreach to me, it was sort of like he poured gasoline on fire. And that I've always been big on reaching out to people. I've always been big on taking initiative. I've always had no issue with that. And that's another thing that's hard for me. And I know it's hard for a lot of people I do understand, I do understand that it can be hard and scary and whatever. But the fact is, it's just like something people just saw me go just won't do it. You know, like, and I even noticed a few times I've guest lecture classes. I'm like, you know, I guess I should film schools and colleges occasionally. And I always give out my website. I'm gonna do right now on your podcast. You know, I always give out my website, matthewgentiledirector.com, I'm not hard to find, like, you could always message me, if you wanna ask me a question. I might take some time. But I'll get back to you. You know, I've had mentors who always get back to me. So I always have to get back to people. And they reach out to me and I have a couple. But I'm just always amazed how like, very rarely do people actually write like, maybe one or two? Well, here and there. And I just don't know why. Because it's just so easy. You know, and like, here's a resource. And so I think the cold average has taught me how to really focus and connect. And, you know, as a result, like, you know, Matt, I could say that Matt and I, together with, you know, targeting where we wanted to go with this movie, and, you know, it plays everything, first film festivals, we played it, or do to relationships that we've built podcasts, and shows, video interviews, I appeared on crime con, while we're because of relationships that we've built, and so you know, when you're at this phase in your career in any phase of your, but when you're at a young starting out phase in your career, you know, it is all about relationships, people getting on the phone and picking up saying, Oh yeah, I know this person, or I know that person, you should talk to this person. And I think, you know, if I incredibly cold average for anything, it's that it's opened up such a wide breadth of context that I now have, that I wouldn't have. Otherwise, if I had just got on it, or hoped that people would find me, you know, going out and just building these connections is allowed me to, you know, now when I go to my next film, and when we're in, when we're finished with that, and we're promoting it and putting it out into the world, we're gonna have 50 podcasts, we have no problem. And we're going to have festivals, we can just go, Hey, you want the movie, you know, and we're going to have, you know, people who might want to do a story on us. And so it's, it's about building relationships. And I think that's what I think cold outreach has allowed me to do is and why it's so important, is that it allows you to overcome that tension. Yeah, because there's no harm, nothing can happen. You know, you write to me, and I don't want to talk you nothing's gonna happen. You know, here's write me an email, like, I'm not gonna, you know, as long as it's a nice email. No, it's, uh, you know, you can write, I've written letters to, you know, Martin Scorsese, before I ever heard back, but you know, one day he'll respond. And you just keep going, like, you know, so I think it's just, you know, overcoming that, and not be letting that hold you back? Because there really is no, there's no consequence. You know, we wrote to the head of can, he didn't respond, but maybe he will, on the next on our third round, nose for second one. So I think just, you know, learning that and learning how to be targeted and learning how to, you know, use your time well, but also not waste people's time, right? Like how a specific thing you want and need, and you know, and love to connect and, and not have such an ulterior motive. And that's where a lot of people get tripped up on other things. So, networking is I really like the word networking, I was kind of like weird. was networking really mean? I just think it's like getting to know people getting to connect and getting to have experiences.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I couldn't agree with that more. And what I always tell my students is that, I cannot guarantee that if you reach out to somebody that you'll get a response. But I can 100% guarantee that if you don't reach out, the answer is no. Right? It's always gonna be no, and you're not going to get a response if you don't reach out. So why not just try? Right?

Matthew Gentile: Yeah, what do you you know, you don't have anything to lose? You know? You We really don't I mean, I can say to man, you know, man, we're, we're gonna share a story. It's a little personal here. But um, you know, the first batch of reviews for a movie weren't very positive, whether it was released, you know, the way it came out, we got, you know, these, like, there's these kind of this group of critics that like, you know, kind of comes after VOD movies, and they, how they attacked us. They were they went on us they massacred. Right. And this was when the movie was winning awards, and getting some good reviews. And then it's like, group just like, and so, you know, we kind of had talked about and I was like, Well, you know, we're a movie. That's it. You know, we didn't have a huge marketing spend, we're not gonna get 100 or 200 or 300 critics to watch this movie, like, you know, like a Marvel movie does or a studio movie does. So what do we do now? Do we sit here and watch our baby? Except that this part of the process was when we want it? Or do we give it a shot? And do we write some critics and see if they'll just watch the effect? You know, what do we have to lose? And since then, our is not all about scores, but our score jumped up tremendously. And what and by the way, The critics who ended up, you know, responding to our well crafted email, asking them to possibly take the time to watch this film and a busy season said, I could hate your movie, you know, to me, like, I might hate your film, I'll watch it if you want me to. And I said, please do. And the reviews didn't get better. And some and then there are some who didn't. But you know, it got it more covered. And it got and you know, and that is things like, at first, I had a lot of hesitation of saying and mass like, why why, like, you know, I don't know, it's out of our hands down movies done. And that's it, what do you have to lose. And that's the message I would send on is like when it comes to reaching out somebody, like if you're doing it politely. And if you're doing it mindfully, and you aren't trying to waste their time, you really have nothing to lose. If you're coming in, and you're saying like, hey, read my 100 page script, or watch my cover? No, you're probably gonna get laughed, and they're gonna delete. But if you come in mindful and say, Hey, I'm this person, I'm on my journey, I need some help. Can you help me, like a little bit, give me five minutes of your time. That's all and you're polite, and you're mindful and respectful about it. Like, the worst case scenario is they won't respond. And the best case scenario and meltdowns is they do get back to you. And they say, I can help you or I can say, so

Zack Arnold: I'm gonna add to my T shirt line and the t shirt. Now, in addition to you know, kindness is not just a line item in the budget, what have you got to lose giant question mark? I think that's get yet another great mic drop a moment for sure. And where I want to leave the conversation, I want to go back to Matt, because I think this is really, really important. Understanding the nuance of telling your story and where you are in your journey to get people to better help you and you and I had a private conversation about this yesterday. And I like to talk a little bit more about the aha moment that you had an understanding. It's not just outreach and I'm asking you a question, or I want to grab coffee and pick your brain. But the magic in this is really an understanding the nuance of telling my story and where I'm really stuck. What was the aha moment that you and I had together yesterday?

Matt Allen: That kind of the aha moment was that? I think I think there was a couple of things, but really, that you can only be in control of so many things. I think it's like you, we talked about like good processes, like yes, you can be doing good cold outreach, but sometimes you don't even know where you're stuck. Like, and I think one thing we talked about is like, I got this great opportunity of working with Matthew. But there's also a perception of like, Oh, you guys went to AFI together. So you cut your buddy's movie, you didn't like have a studio bet on you all our distribution happened afterwards. Like we basically played film festivals, we got our distribution, we had some cool companies come on, and then we got out into the world. So there is there was a part of where me being stuck of getting more editing opportunities is that, oh, I didn't have like a big studio take a risk on you. So that's like part of the as we talk about the elephant in the room, have a part of it and realize where I was stuck, I think also a cool point to highlight as well as like, we talked about goal setting well of like, how you Outreach? Well, of that, you know, you can have a goal of like, yes, I want to land this next job or next thing. But as we've said before, like you're not in fully control of that. Because you're because you're an editor and you're looking for a project. You can't, you can't fully manifest that you can have good process, you can put yourself in the right position. But you can only control of like how well you're reaching out to people, what type of people you're building relationships with. And then you just have to be prepared. And you can't if you're all of a sudden not maybe getting the offers that you want, or you're not hearing about thing, it doesn't mean that you have bad process, there has to be an opportunity that lines up with you being prepared. So I think that was another like, Aha moment in terms of good goal setting. And also, sometimes you don't realize where you're stuck.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I think ultimately, if I'm gonna break that down and simplify even further, which gets both very specific and very broad in general, that I firmly believe, and I'm not the first one to say it, many others have said it, but the quality of your life is largely dictated by the quality of the questions that you ask. And in your case, the question that you were asking where you thought you were stuck, was, I've gotten my first credit, how do I get over the hump of getting my second? Because everybody says, Oh, the second is harder than the first. And you were asking the wrong question, because the perception might be not necessarily but it might be. How do I get my first studio credit? Because technically you got a studio film, but the perception is, yeah, but it wasn't really your first movie. I mean, you did it with your buddy. And you guys kind of willed it into existence, but you didn't deal with the studio notes process and executive producers, and all those other things. So you're, in a way kind of asking the wrong question. How do I get my second big studio movie? How do I get my first big studio movie which by By the way, changes the people that you connect with and the mentors that you surround yourself with, does it not?

Matt Allen: Totally. So it makes your outreach a lot more, I would say a lot more focused, and it makes your questions, which is you, which brings it back to that your questions a lot more focused of what you're asking, and asking people about what their journey was, and what advice they can they can add to you.

Zack Arnold: Exactly. So the final place we're gonna leave this is an exercise that I don't do at the end of every episode, there are some podcasters that ask the exact same questions at the end of every hour, every episode doesn't matter who their guests are, what the topics are. I'm not a big believer in that. But I do have a stock question that I like to ask Pacific when it's a people's journeys, and inspirational journeys and overcoming a lot of limiting beliefs and obstacles. So I'm gonna start with you, Matthew, if we were to rewind to the darkest portion of this film's journey, where you weren't really sure, is this ever going to be a thing? Can I make this happen? And maybe for you, that moment, never even existed? But think too early in the journey. I want you to time travel back to yourself, What advice do you give, now that you've gone through this entire process once?

Matthew Gentile: Well, it definitely was part of the journey. I would tell that person 29 There was a plan 2019, where it looked like it just might not get off the ground. And I would say that the dark soul, if you will. And I would say that person buckle up, you know, because you're gonna get that a million times you think a dark night of the soul and the dark night? No, it's not gonna happen is when you there's so many points that have films process where you're just gonna feel when you do get drained. You know, like, you don't have anything left in you. Maybe when you finish shooting, you're like, a knife to go edit. And when you edit, I have to put it out there. Now I can distribute it. Now I do press denied. And then then it eventually does just No, I would just say to, you know, to also take the time to accept that it's a process. And it's not always about nailing it, as always about, you know, get like, it takes time, this process of filmmaking is so complex, and there's so many moving parts. So, you know, I would say to that self three years ago, I guess it was just gonna get made, I would say, you know, we know now it did. So it's gonna get made. So now, how do you better prepare? What do you learn? What do you take along? How do you better position to prepare yourself? To take that leap to take that next step? You know, and not be too tough on oneself. I think that's, you know, I'm sure you've dealt with that, based on my conversations with you that for ambitious types, you know, and artistic and creative types, I think you'd be very hard on ourselves. You know, I think it'd be kind of oneself in that process, and a lot of giving yourself the space to do what you need to do and to let the process be and take a lot of it.

Zack Arnold: Well, Matt, you're going to be jumping in a time machine into a different moment, because you have a different journey and path as Matthew. But if you're going to jump back into a time machine, where it's one of those darker moments where you may have been doubting yourself, whether it's during this film, or it was when you were 19 years old, wondering if you're ever gonna even go to F AFI whatever it might be. What's the moment? And what's the advice that you're gonna give yourself?

Matt Allen: The moment, let's think there's kind of like two, two moments, I can think of that they're very similar, because I think the the feeling was over being overwhelmed. I think getting into AFI was very much a feeling of overwhelmed, because at the time, I got rejected from a lot of other grad schools that were not as good as AFI. And so I thought, you know, I'm going to do something different, or I thought I was gonna go down another career path. And then I got into AFI, so there was definitely a overwhelming joy and also overwhelming, like, Okay, this is going to be this is gonna be rough. It's gonna be rough two years. And it was a very rough to like, there was huge highs and lows in those two years at AFI. And then I think the other one is booking my first big studio job is like, alright, this is real, like you wanted to do this. And now you got to, you got to you got to do this, and the expectations are there, regardless if it's your first time or not. And I think if I would go back in time, I would just say surround yourself with good people. I think that's really what changes the course of your direction in life and where you want to go is the people you surround around you. I think that matters so much of the people that you're seeking advice, the people that will support you that people that you can call when you're having a bad day. I think those people regardless if they're working creatively with you or they're just part of your you know, emotional support system. I think surrounding yourself with really good people. is game changing and life changing. So I think that would be my advice. Because you're not, you're not you're not meant to even as an editor, you do a lot of time alone. I think the reason why filmmaking is so special, maybe compared to other art forms, that is collaborative is a team thing. And you do, you know, win and die as a team. It's a team sport. And life's that way too. So we might as well find a great team and have them and come alongside them and come alongside other people. Well, so that's the advice I would give myself.

Zack Arnold: And for two young up and coming filmmakers, you sure know a lot about life and business and filmmaking, and there's just a multitude of these mic drop moments everywhere. Why is beyond your years, both of you, Matt, and Matthew, this has been an absolute pleasure. I'm glad that you guys consistently, very politely, but very consistently, we're good with your outreach, and getting in front of me and telling your story such that I could see the value and we can get you on the microphone, and we could share this story with my audience. And I think you brought a lot of value today, which I know was the purpose. And I hope that we brought a little value to you in return. So if anybody most importantly, the whole reason we're here is shameless self promotion. Where can people watch this movie that we keep talking about?

Matthew Gentile: They can watch it on Amazon, iTunes, Apple, all digital platforms, anywhere you can rent a movie you could rent to American bird digitally has come to DVD and blu ray, December 13. Thanks for a fun Christmas present. My last message is listen to Zack Arnold and Iron Man Allen.

Zack Arnold: I love it we're gonna have to make we're gonna have to make that the cold open. Talk about good promotion for both of us. I can attest to firsthand that whatever the cost may be at the time, you will be making a wise investment watching American murder. I watched it I really really enjoyed it. The only thing that's really weird and very insider baseball is that I could not get past the fact that Ryan Phillippe and Shantel were brother and sister instead of married because I spent three years working on shooter and they were married and I just I could not get those characters out of my head. Right. I kept waiting for him to for her to call him Bob Lee. Right let's but what? So this just was a very weird personal experience for me because I feel so connected to them even though I've never met either of them in person, but to see them as brothers sisters, like this is weird, but that was just my own personal experience. It was really, really well done. I never would have guessed number one super low budget you can tell it wasn't $50 million. But it didn't feel like super low budget shoestring budget, but it also did not feel like a first time filmmaker. Thank you. So it's really well done. And it was a great, great film. I would I can wholeheartedly endorse that. It's worth your hour and 40 minutes in the seven bucks or 10 bucks or whatever it is totally worth it. Really enjoyed it. So you guys did a great job. Thank you.

Matthew Gentile: Thank you. Thank you

Episode Credits

This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared by Debby Germino and published by Glen McNiel.

The original music in the opening and closing of the show is courtesy of Joe Trapanese (who is quite possibly one of the most talented composers on the face of the planet).