Episode Highlights

• Zack reveals what he knew about Kathy from the first time they met
• The realization Kathy had while still working at the FBI
• The important lesson Kathy learned from Zack that stuck with her through her journey into the creative world
• The first thing that needed to change for Kathy in order to successfully make a career transition
• The biggest obstacle Kathy had, where it came from and the lesson she learned from the Optimizer coaching program to overcome it
• How to say ‘no’ to the wrong opportunities
• Why Kathy stayed in a toxic work culture for so long
• Where Kathy’s resilience comes from
• How building habits helped Kathy when she retired from the FBI
• How Kathy got her current job and why she loves it
• How managing torpedoes in the Navy is relevant to becoming a TV editor
• The advice that Kathy will give her past self and the advice that her future self will give to her present self

Useful Links

• The Mark of the Maker (Short 1991) – IMDb

About Guest

Kathy Robinson is a film and video editor transitioning from a decade-long career in Federal law enforcement to pursue her passion for storytelling and visual media. Her previous role instilled a strong foundation of adaptability, resourcefulness, and the ability to excel under pressure. These skills have seamlessly translated into her video editing career, where she has contributed to diverse freelance projects with non-profit organizations, marketing agencies, and independent filmmakers. Through these experiences, she developed a keen eye for detail, technical proficiency, and a collaborative approach to creative problem-solving.

One of her proudest achievements as a video editor was collaborating with her former DePaul University classmates on an independent 30-second film during the COVID-19 pandemic of 2021. Tasked with creating a 90-second short film using only a cell phone and incorporating the elements of “high heel” and “button,” her team’s ingenuity and teamwork earned them the WaFL audience award. Her enthusiasm for taking on new challenges and her dedication to continuous learning drive her to create impactful and engaging content in every project she undertakes.

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Transcript

Zack Arnold: I'm here today with Kathy Robinson, who is a former investigative operations analyst for the Department of Justice, specifically the FBI. You're also a Navy veteran. More importantly, you have made a significant career transition into all things the entertainment industry. And I think maybe the most prestigious credit that I'd like to give you, at least from my own personal perspective, is you are now a longtime member of my community and a long time student of mine, therefore that is how you got onto this call today. And I'm very, very excited to finally have this conversation with you. Kathy.

Kathy Robinson: I'm excited too. That was a beautiful introduction. Zack, thank you so much.

Zack Arnold: Well, you deserve it, so I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. Yes, when you and I originally connected on our initial zoom call, which, if I have the date in front of me, was September 16 of 2022 so it's been at least as of recording this has been about two and a half years since we connected, and I'm gonna share a secret that I don't think I've ever told you. Maybe I've kind of dropped a hint here or there. I knew the very first time we met that you were going to be on my podcast. Really. I knew immediately when I talked to you, you were eventually going to be one of my student case studies on my podcast. Why do you think I knew that immediately?

Kathy Robinson: I think because we both connected so well the very first time, because I remember the first time I spoke with you, and I felt so relaxed. And I was coming from a place where I just came from a so called Career Counselor, and he was not who he said he was. It was a rip off. And so to talk to you was so refreshing and and I just felt safe, and I knew this is, this is the community I needed to belong to. So I never thought I'd be on a podcast, though. I just knew I would be a part of this community. My plan to be forever. So

Zack Arnold: Trust me, I'm not going to let you get rid of me or get rid of us anytime soon. So the feeling is very mutual. But I'm, I'm going to tell you how I knew that you were going to be on this podcast. First of all, just You're, you're a very engaging person, a very warm person. There. It's, I think it would be impossible for you to not authentically be Kathy, like it was just very clear to me, you know who you are, and you put yourself out there. But what I found so interesting was that, and we're going to talk so much more about your story and where you are in your career now, what you were doing in the past, how you really made a significant career transition. But it was this idea that the contrast between where you've been and what you've done was so stark to where you want to go next. But it wasn't just, you know, I've been working for the FBI for two plus decades, and I've decided I want to make movies. You were so insanely specific about what your ultimate vision and goal was, and you and I have joked about it ever since. But what did you tell me on that very first call?

Kathy Robinson: Oh, yeah, I'm going to edit Black Panther six. And

Zack Arnold: I was like, whoa. Like, that's ballsy. Like to make that declaration. I'm like, not only am I excited about that, I want to be a part of that journey. So I was like, Yep, she's she's going to be on this podcast. I didn't know when, didn't know how long it would be, but it's just one of those intuitive feelings that given the the present state of the industry, and also given what you've accomplished over the last few months, it's like, Yep, I think now is the time. So I've known since September of 2022, that you and I were going to be talking.

Kathy Robinson: wow, wow. You're psychic, too, amazing, psychotic

Zack Arnold: psychics. It's a fine line between those two things. So essentially, what I want to do is I want to start a little bit before where we connected, then I actually want to jump a lot more backwards to give people more of a background of just better understanding, like, What the hell is an investigative operations analyst? The reason being that I think so many people have the fear right now, because there's so much uncertainty, especially in creative fields, that we put in years and years, if not decades, of learning, very specific skills, learning workflows, developing and advancing our careers, and they took the rug right out underneath us, and the landscape is just a complete and total mess, and nobody knows what to do next. And what I hear from so many people are the same words. I feel like I am starting over, and I can't imagine that there weren't a few points in this mid career pivot where you thought exactly the same thing that, Oh, my God, I have to start from scratch. So we're actually want to start is I initially gotten an email from you that was, I think, just about one of the free ultimate guides that I had sent out. And I don't even remember which one it was, but I know that you had attended one of my workshops before you and I had connected one on one, and one of the first things that you told me was, as soon as I did the workshop, I immediately got two interviews, so I had to reach out. So around that period of time, what I want to better understand is what was kind of that inflection point of, you know, what I. I actually think I'm going to go for this. So I'm going to go online, I'm going to do some research, see what I can find. What ended up bringing you to that very first workshop, thinking I'm going to be around a bunch of Hollywood creatives, and I work for the FBI. Give me to that point first, and I want to learn more about your background.

Kathy Robinson: Okay, so while I was working for the FBI, I saw a trailer for the matrix, and I was so intrigued with that particular clip that I went and did research, which I'm jumping a little bit ahead. Here is the basis of what I did as an investigative operations analyst at the FBI. It's research and assisting with background checks. So you research everything, and I'm great at that, because that's what I've done all these years. So I wanted something. I wanted to know what this was. And so I did. I checked it out. That's that's what I did. I went to a local, one of the film schools in Chicago, Columbia College, and I talked to an advisor, and I said, what is that? And to be specific, it's the part where Neil gets shot and he's going backwards, you know?

Zack Arnold: Oh yeah, the bullet camera, bullet time is what they

Kathy Robinson: Bullet time and and he said, Yeah, that's special effects, but an editor puts that together to tell a story. And I thought, wow, I can do that. So about a month later, because he told me when the cycle would begin for enrollment and all that, and as soon as it I had a chance, I enrolled, and I did my undergraduate at Columbia College in Chicago, while right after I graduated, I did get an internship with a documentary producer who actually was nominated for an Academy Award back in the 70s or something. It's called Mark of the maker or something. It's about how paper is made. And he was the editor on that and producer, and he got an Oscar nomination. He never liked to talk about it, but I worked with him, and he taught me everything he knew about being an editor, which was organization, which is hugely important. And going back to the work I used to do, organizing is is imperative. So I keep going back and forth because all these things, and I used to think that I was starting over. And it's not that, it's that I have to be able to take what I've learned and apply it to what I want to do. And I can do that because I've done it for so long I can do it in my sleep. And my problem, I won't call it a problem. I'm sorry. Scratch that. The challenge was trying to connect the dots between what I used to do and what I want to do and where I want to go, and connect with the people, which is how I came to find Optimize Yourself, because I saw I used to get feeds. I don't know how I got your emails, because I used to get them quite often. And I don't know I must have hit with searching with something, and somehow they're all algorithms connected or something, but I would get your emails quite often. So I said, I'll try this. And when you had all these and I signed up, and I saw all these other people on with all these different career paths, and, you know, everyone was so diverse. And I thought, This is my community. This is my tribe. So I hope that answers your question. I feel like I kind of got off on a tangent there.

Zack Arnold: No, I think, I think that's a really, really great place to start. I have a whole, whole lot of threads now that I can start to pull on. But yeah, I can. I don't know exactly how you found me as well, because there are multiple different ways that I put myself out there. Used to do it a lot more on social media. Now I avoid social media like the plague. Don't have anything to do with it for so many reasons. But you know, whether it's SEO on a Google search or, you know, get hearing my name on somebody else's newsletter. However, it was that I kind of found my way into your inbox. I can say it probably wasn't an accident, but it's also not an accident that you are attracted to the community, because one of the core values of the brand of this company, whatever the name might be, one of the core values of this brand is diverse perspectives. That's a really, really important thing to me. And not just, you know, diversity of skin color or diversity of ethnicity or origin, but diversity. Of crafts, diversity of interest, diversity of creative pursuits. So I think we don't need to belabor the point too much of dealing with that kind of traditional career counselor. But I don't see myself as a career counselor, and reluctantly use the term career coach, just because it's the simplest way to explain the services we offer. But for me, it's so important to value so many diverse life experiences and work experiences where a traditional career counselor that, for example, helps editors in Hollywood find jobs, they'd say, Wait, so let me understand you. You work for the FBI and now you like to work in Hollywood. Okay, best of luck with that. Kathy, right? But, but what I immediately saw, and this is what I want to start digging into further, I immediately saw all of the transferable skills, knowledge and experience that could bring value in this industry. But let's be honest, getting you to that point was like pulling teeth, yes, for like, two years, getting you to stand outside yourself and say, Holy shit, you're right. Like, every single outreach email, every pass we did on your resume, everything, it was like, Yeah, but Kathy, what about this? Oh yeah, I can do that. Oh yeah, I did have that experience. So you very confidently presented yourself at the beginning of this interview, understanding I'm not starting over. I do see all of these things, all these different skills or experience, but that is not where you started. So talk to me a little bit more about this journey, because I think so many people are in a similar place that you were when we started, when it just feels like I literally the I have to start from scratch. Why would anybody hire me to do something different, other than the one thing I've done for years? So talk to me about the beginning of this journey, when it was really, really difficult for you to be able to see or connect the dots, so to speak, of all the the skills, knowledge and experience that you bring to the table for anybody in any field.

Kathy Robinson: Okay? So I remember specifically when I first joined the community, and one of the first things you start off saying, started off saying, and I'll never forget it, you said, play chess instead of checkers. It's you're in it for the long game. And it's not about because the way I used to approach it, in a way, why it was so hard for me to realize I have transferrable skills, it's because I thought, Okay, I'll join this community, connect with a few people, get a job, get that job, connect with some more People, get another job, and that's the process I was used to working in the federal sector. It wasn't so much connecting. You just apply for a job. You didn't get it, you apply again. And it was a machine. So understanding that if you if I want and will achieve this goal, there are some things I'm going to have to do differently, and one thing that I will have to change is my mindset. And that was, that is the hardest part, because when you're used to, I've personally when I was used to doing things a certain way. And it was, I was achieving it that way, changing it is like, No, this isn't going to work, because I've always done it like this, and no, so that's, that's the main reason. It was my mindset and my attitude. It was that needed changing the most, because once that gets oh gosh, I'm sorry, that's okay, once I decided that doing the same thing over and over isn't going to change anything I need to change. And that's when things started to get better, and I started to see a pathway to success,

Zack Arnold: yeah, oh yes. You're the, this is for anybody that's kind of, you know, waiting for the big act three reveal. You're not literally editing the next Black Panther at the moment. We're on the path. We're along the journey. You know, long ways to go, but you're, you are on the path. So, you know, for anybody that's kind of waiting for, you know that that big, climactic moment, there is one coming. But you know, this isn't a matter of, this is the end of the story. This is the middle of the story, right, right? But I'm so glad that you brought up mindset, because I feel especially when it comes to branding, when it comes to marketing, when it comes to career counseling, career coaching, whatever that might look like, everybody's playing the game on a tactical level, right? So it's all about, if you were to bring a resume or portfolio website to a career counselor, well, you know, I think you're you're probably missing some of these buzz words, and you might want to change it from two columns to one column, right? So very tactical. It's all about the tools, especially now with AI. Everybody's writing a resume with AI. So an AI. AI bot can read the resume. It's like all we're all we're allowing the bots to do is talk to each other, and we've removed the humans from the process, right? But it's always tactical, and I always think about this process or this journey, just like if you were looking at an iceberg, where, I'm sure everybody has seen that kind of cross sectional view, where above the surface there's a little piece of ice, below the surface, there is so much more ice there, right? And the top level is tactics, and it's the tools. Below the surface, you have a lot more strategy. That's the chestnut checkers, but the foundation of all of it is not even the strategy. It's the mindset. It's the way that you perceive your reality. I talk about mindset extensively in our year long mastermind program, and you and I have talked about it so much as well, and one of the things that I say to my students all the time is that what got you here not going to get you there. And for you, that was the case where you had been conditioned to become a part of a system where here's my resume, here's my cover letter, I send it to this link, I send it to this portal, either I get an interview or I don't get an interview, and it's just about playing the numbers game and being persistent, right? And that's largely the way that it works. But I don't think that that's the when things work the most effectively. Ie not just chasing the next paycheck job, but actually connecting with the right people on the right projects that you really want to collaborate with and you want to do something that's fulfilling that process does not work. Like, yeah, there's going to be outliers, just like lottery tickets. You can randomly apply to a job that's like, oh, I guess this will be a paycheck, and all of a sudden it's your dream job, and you meet great people, and you're off to the races. So it's not that that can't happen, but the likelihood is very low. So you and I started by working on the mindset and really understanding that it's not just how do I update the header of my resume so I can apply for this job on LinkedIn? Is going much, much deeper. So in addition to this idea of shifting your mindset from playing a game of checkers to instead playing a game of chess, and I would argue that nowadays, especially with how much fear and uncertainty there is and the desperation, I don't even think people are playing checkers. I think a lot of people are playing a game of Go Fish. And I think what we really need to do is start playing that three dimensional game of chess. And I really saw that kind of take hold for you, and you just, you started to settle down. It was a matter of, I want to get this done, and I want to get it out by this day. And then all of a sudden, you're like, you know what? I'm going to do this right before? I'm going to do it fast. I'm really going to dig in and you all facets, whether it was digging into networking, digging into time management, digging into branding, right? All the kind of different areas and learning paths that we offer, you took the time to dig into those. So in addition to playing chess instead of checkers, what other mindsets Did you shift that have served you through this transitional process thus far.

Kathy Robinson: The biggest one was imposter syndrome, that I wasn't worthy. You know, how dare you try to get into a career like this? You don't belong. You know that that voice I had to fight, I still fight it, to fight it today. But yes, the old imposter syndrome, it's, it's something I have to work on. I'm still working on. Yeah, yeah,

Zack Arnold: well, we're all still working on it, myself included. It's just, it's part of the the human experience, and for me, the voices, and from having talked to many of my students, I think the voice is very, very similar. It's literally screaming, who the hell do you think you are? Yeah, right. And it's, it's very loud for me, it's very loud for so many other people that I've talked to. So where do you think that voice was coming from? For you, especially when it was really at its worst. And how have you learned how to better manage it? Because, spoiler alert, we don't get rid of it, we learn how to develop a much healthier relationship with it. So where do you really think that was coming from, specifically in the early stages of making the decision to transition to working in Hollywood rather than for the government?

Kathy Robinson: Well, work of recently. Well, not recently. I know where some of it started, or some of the jobs that I landed, and I was so thirsty for an opportunity that I'd started taking anything. If they said yes, I was like, okay, they really want me. This must mean that I'm worthy. And then I get in here, in this opportunity, and the people are shitty the job, the work is great, but the people are just total assholes. Excuse My French, but they and I stuck with it, because in my mind, I thought, okay if, unless they fire me, I'm going to stay with this, because I won't get another opportunity, and it's so hard to get a job, and I was lucky to get this, and I did that 20. Nice, you know, since we've been talking, and it wasn't. And of course, during one of the sessions that I took during the one that optimized yourself sessions, and you told us, in one session, it's okay to say no. And I thought, Oh, I don't know how dare I have the right to say no. If I get an opportunity, I'm taking it, because this may not come again, that that brass ring, that's it, if I miss it, God knows when I see it again. And I had to, when you said that, I thought, okay, when I start saying no, there's power in seeing that. And I was giving myself permission, and that's was another big thing that I had to learn to do. So I had to get let go of these jobs in order to realize, first of all, they did me a favor. And secondly, I should never stay in a situation where I'm not valued, I'm not heard, I'm not seen, no job is worth that. So I think I answered your question

Zack Arnold: No, and I applaud you for having kind of worked through what is a very, very difficult process, not just on a rational, analytical level, but on an emotional level, getting to the point where you will accept that it's okay to say no to something. You accept that you know what, I am going to quit this because I think for a lot of people, and I would imagine, especially with the background that you have, both in the Navy as well as the FBI, like we're not quitters, like we power through, like, that's just the mindset. There is no, no quitting at all. Right, right? And I'm a big believer in committing to something, but if it's not the right fit, especially if I'm being exploited or if I'm being abused, I have every and all rights to say no and walk away and quit, because it's not serving anybody, but most importantly, it's not serving me or my mental health. And that was a hard thing for me to accept as well. And I just I've randomly had a flashback to a story I don't know if I've ever told on this podcast, but right out of high school, I took a job of framing houses and doing home construction so I could make money during the summer before I moved to Michigan to go to University of Michigan to study film, and I was in the most abusive, toxic circumstance I've ever been in my life. You just kind of picture the the quintessential like angry, screaming redneck, right? Like just profanities, but not even that. Like, literally throwing tools at me. Like, if I would screw up and I would make a mistake, and I was just beyond miserable. Like, what had it done? Like, I'm literally starting to feel some of the things, same things, just talking about it. It was so miserable and so awful. And I would, like, literally go home in tears, thinking, I don't know how I'm gonna go back tomorrow. I was probably making, I don't know, 10 bucks an hour or something, right? And I remember I had called my brother one night, and he was asking me why I was so upset. He's like, Dude, you're 18. Like, quit the damn job. Like Life is too short to be this unhappy about a stupid job. And literally, the next morning, I walked up to him, I said, I want my paycheck. I'm out. And I left, and I never went back, but it was really hard for me to accept that I had quit, because that, to me, felt like failure. And for years, I carried that around like I couldn't stick it out right? Like, what's wrong with me that I was so weak and I was so sensitive that I couldn't just stick it out and be one of the guys. Now I look back at that, and I think I just, I can't imagine if I, if I still looked at this industry the same way, the horrible situations I might be in. So it's, it's been really rewarding to watch your growth, where you went from this mindset of like, I don't know, I got to make it work, like it's really challenging to saying, and this is the most important part. I value myself, and I know that I don't deserve to be in this situation. But also going back to kind of this, this main theme that we started with, I think it also stems from the fear of, like you said, I don't know if I'm going to get anything else, because I still can't see the value that I bring to others. And I think the more that we were really workshopped with you how to connect all these dots, and you're like, Oh, I do see how managing torpedoes in the Navy, or being organizational all these things, they actually give me not just something that I can transfer, but they actually give you an advantage in a lot of respects. So would you say that having a better understanding of all the value you bring also allowed you to say no, just a little bit easier?

Kathy Robinson: It does. It does now. And it's also knowing that, that confidence that yes, I can do this, and I don't need someone with not as much talent in their little finger to tell me what that I'm not. Good at something, because with these horrible opportunities that I had, these individuals, had the nerve to tell me, Well, maybe you should go in another direction. Maybe you're not cut out to be an editor. You should do this. And I did not believe them, but it just taught me, once again, staying in a toxic situation too long, you become toxic yourself. And you know, with going back to the government job, there were a lot of toxic people in that in that organization. I mean, I'm just being honest, they, some of them would come to work knowing that they were sick because they didn't want to miss work. They wanted to, because you gain time when you when you come to work all the time, you don't use your leave. You build it up. So they were more concerned with having 500 hours of annual leave at the end of a year, then taking off when you're sick for two weeks, so you don't spread it to everyone else. When you're in an environment like that for so long, you take that on and it's hard to get rid of it. I mean, you at 18, you got out of it early, and I'm sorry you went through that, but imagine being in a situation or in a job like having for over 20 years, and I didn't even realize how negative I was becoming. So it took a lot, and in within two and a half years, coming from where I came from, and working within the optimizer community, it's a miracle, you know, so

Zack Arnold: well i Well, I can, I can share that, the the toxic nature, the conditioning of, you know, coming into work when you're sick, not exclusive to the FBI or the government. Oh, my God, no, it's endemic. I think it's endemic to our work culture in general. It's far reaching in many, many industries, but absolutely ingrained in those that work in the entertainment industry as well. And I, my hope, was that that was going to change for the long term and go away because of the pandemic, because all of a sudden, like, if you had a sniffle, for the love of all that is holy, stay away from us for two weeks, right? And I was like, Yeah, good. This is how we should be treating it all the time. But now we're just back in the vicious cycle of everybody being exploited crazy, long hours. Like it's, it's just, it's endemic to the system, and it has nothing to do with the FBI. So even though, yes, it's from that point, I'd never had tools thrown at my head anymore, but I've been in many, many toxic circumstances with exploitive hours, verbal abuse, like it's so it's, it wasn't the last time I ever went through it. It's something that I've had to go through multiple times. Sometimes you stick it out because you know the opportunity itself can lead to other future, larger opportunities. But then there are other times when I said, it does not matter what opportunities this brings life is too short to allow myself or allow the other people around me to be treated this way.

Kathy Robinson: Yeah. So yeah, yeah. And the only time I saw in my journey, it was in school, and I had this teacher. He was He taught audio, audio editing, and he he told the class several times. He said, If you come to class sick and you make me sick, you're gonna fail.

Zack Arnold: Good for him. I like him.

Kathy Robinson: Yeah, I liked him too. I thought it was so sad. I never had anybody a teacher, a super no one never, ever said that. He said, and he said it several times to you, better not come to school sick. I will fail you, and nobody came to class sick. So if

Zack Arnold: we could only all adopt that mindset, I know,

Kathy Robinson: I know, or just make it so that if you do get sick, there's no threat of you losing your job. Because, yeah, now that you know, there's just no guarantees anymore. There are no safeguards, no workers and yeah,

Zack Arnold: and that's that's especially a challenge in not only the way that the industry has been structured for decades now, which is, there's, it's very, very hard to come by what would be, quote, unquote, a full time job, right? As far as, like, you work for one studio, you work on several movies in a row, several TV shows, it's really project to project. So the deadlines are the deadlines. And if you're going to be out for an extended period of time. It's not a matter of, you're a member of the team, and we find to make it work, it's, well, the data on the calendar is not going to change. Sorry, you got to be replaced. That literally happened to me just six months ago. I was finishing up the series finale of Cobra Kai, and as you know, my father ended up passing away, and because of the the timing of it, we just all mute. Actually agree that there's no way that this can get done, get done well and get done with the amount of time allotted if you're going to be waiting two to three weeks for me to tie up all these affairs. So I ended up getting replaced by another member of the team. And I'm not saying that because I have any ill will. That's just the way the system is designed, where I really had an intense fear of man, if, if this ends up happening, because my father had experienced a lot of health challenges over the last couple of years, and I just kept thinking, please don't let it happen until the season is over. Please don't let it happen until the season is over. Because I knew if it did, it wasn't a matter of, we're so sorry this happened. We're, you know, we're going to make everything work around it. It was, you know, we're, we're really sorry this happened to you. They were very empathetic about it. They couldn't have been nicer. But the studio's deadline is the studio's deadline, right? So I think that there's just that fear that we all have, whether it's being sick, whether it's, you know, taking maternity leave, paternity leave, you know, whatever it might be. That's just the way the current system is designed, and it's beyond broken. But that's a soapbox for another day. I want to go back to something else still related to you working in the the FBI environment for so long, but not so much from the toxic work environment angle. I want to look at it from a slightly different angle, which is when, when did you discover, or maybe you already knew, but when did you realize that you were a creative that was in a very non creative conformist world. And what was it like working for the FBI, knowing that you were kind of in the closet, this very creative person that had creative endeavors,

Kathy Robinson: You know, I, I knew I was different because I didn't go step along with everybody else. You know, there's, there are a lot of people who they brown nose a lot, and they socialize with each other a lot. And I tried those. I tried to get in certain groups and socialize with certain people, and I was never really accepted. And it took me a long time to realize that it wasn't totally me, but it I just didn't fit in. I didn't fit in with the way of thinking because my way of solving a problem was more creative, whereas theirs was, well, we'll just turn them in and we'll tell the boss and have them suspended. You know, that kind of thing. Just, it was always something drastic. And when it all, it took, like, some little just talk to the person, or just reach out with some kindness, I don't know any just, I just did not have the same mindset. And it took me, near the end of my career there, to realize I didn't. It wasn't so much. It was a bad place to work. It was a great place to work. It's just that it didn't. I did not fit in, and it's realizing that didn't make it any easier. It's kind of sad, because, on a positive note, I did gain a lot of there were a lot of positive things that came out of it. I mean, have a pension, and managed to invest, and I came out pretty well, and I've got all these skills, and I can put this in a resume, and it's impressive, and not a lot of people can get in this organization. So I was blessed in that respect. But I'm if I could go back in time, which I don't, but if I could, I wouldn't have stayed as long because I knew that there was something I was destined to do, and I knew I wanted to do something creative. I just knew it. I just didn't know what, and I was it was fear. That's what I'm trying to say, roundabout way. Fear kept me there. Fear kept me paralyzed to just stay with it. You know, this is a good thing. Here you go out there. It's uncertain, and with uncertainty. What if you get out there and you you, you fail, you lose your home. You live on the street because, you know artists, they're starving, and so they have to sing on the subway or something. And I thought these crazy things. So fear will, will paralyze a person. It'll it paralyzed me, and I just had to get up the courage and the faith to leave and to realize it'll be okay, because I did build this safety net, and I do have these skills and I can make this work. It's just going to take time and creativity. Yeah, and it takes a lot, it took a long time to realize that, once again, it is not a light bulb. And there, there are times I still struggle with some aspects of some of the decisions I made. But I think I know fear is a is a big part of what kept me there so long and not realizing that I shouldn't have stayed as long as I did.

Zack Arnold: I want to go a little bit deeper into two aspects of this, the first of which is, we're just going to stick with the fear for a second. And secondly, I again, want to zoom in a little bit deeper into your at this point, you're so naturally saying, I knew I had the skills, I knew I could do something else. And I'm like, Who am I talking to right now? This is not the Kathy that I remember working I want to get a little bit more granular in a second, like, actually, how you and I broke down and identified, what are the skills? How are they transferable? But I want to stick with the fear for a second. I find that there's almost always an inflection point, a moment where it's not necessarily, oh, I'm going to develop all the right tools, I'm going to better manage the fear, I'm going to choose to leave. There's usually a moment, there's a spark where you're like, I just, I have to like, this is the time. Can you? Can you remember any kind of specific moment or inflection point where it went from I'm not any less afraid of making this transition, but I just I got to do this.

Kathy Robinson: Yeah, I do know when I decided there was a it was about a year before, oh no, it was about 18 months before I had to make the choice whether to stay with the Bureau or retire. And the bureau, at the time, offered these buyouts. So if you know you were due to retire within a two year span, you could either take this lump sum along with your retirement and leave, or you could stay. And if you stayed, and you decided maybe, like, two or three years, I want to leave now and take this bonus. It wasn't going to be offered anymore. I was coming up to the point where my time was going short, and I had to make this decision, and I decided to take the bonus, and so I retired early. Actually, I had retired. It's like six months early in that decision. I actually ran I remember talking to people that I grown close to in the organization, and trying to get their opinion about what they thought and their approval, so to speak, it's just the right thing, because that's just how scared I was. I asked my parents, my sister, I did not I still didn't believe I could do it, and I still didn't have the confidence that I could trust making my own decisions and making the right decisions regarding this step. And finally, D day came and I had to make a decision, are you going to stay, or are you going to pass up on this opportunity to get this bonus, or you're going to leave? So I decided to take it and leave. And even then I was still questioning, asking strangers, what do you think? Yeah, but I had to do it and and just when my I made my decision and I was happy with it, I graduated from DePaul University with a Master's, and it was during COVID. My mother died of COVID About a month after I graduate, no the same month I graduated, she died of COVID. My aunt died a week after her, and a friend who used to work at the Bureau died as well. So what should have been a happy moment, a wonderful time. It was I slip walk through the whole thing. So I mean, bring it down like that, but

Zack Arnold: No, there's a difference between bringing it down and being real about it. So basically, you skipped over my agenda by about five minutes. No worries, because I do still want to dive a little bit more into the tactical and the skill side of it. I want to stick with this, because one of the things that I want, I wanted to talk about, was that one of the one of the most important skills of really being a great editor and a great storyteller is timing. Yeah. And holy shit is your timing awful. The timing of you deciding I want to make a career transition from a completely different industry on a different planet to a creative career in the Hollywood entertainment industry during a pandemic, when the industry is completely crumbling in front of you, your timing kind of sucks. Kathy,

Kathy Robinson: No, it was yes. And it's weird, because when I'd made the decision to leave and do all these things that was on my way and all these things happen, I thought, Oh my goodness. All I felt at the time was loneliness. I didn't even think about this. The timing's bad. I didn't think about a career because, you know, we were shut down. We had to isolate. And it's, it's, it was just a horrible, lonely time. And fortunately, during that time, though, it was about, I was into retirement about three months, and then one of my former classmates sent me an email. She said she wanted to enter this contest, and you had to it was a 32nd movie with a cell phone, and there was a theme, you had to use high heels and something else but, and we decided to do, she wanted to do this poem, poetry in motion. So during the pandemic, we all she reached me out to me for editing, and she found other people, director, cinematographer, and all that, and we made this 32nd movie during the pandemic. We were wearing masks, we were isolated, found a place to do this shoot, and it took about a day, and we entered into the contest and actually won an audience award. And it was one of the it was, like, the first time that I've really felt like, Okay, this won't be so bad, and there's hope. You know, we weren't getting none of us got paid. We just did it. We just decided to help her out with this vision that she had, and it was successful in the sense that we got recognized for our work, and under those circumstances. So I'm sorry. I feel like I'm not answering any of your questions because the golf on tangents, so I apologize if I did.

Zack Arnold: So here's the best advice I can give you. You're doing amazingly well. The pattern is you're hitting this point. And by the way, I don't want to cut this out right now. I want to keep this in. Here's the reason why, okay, because it's what we're doing is we're hitting up against the same wall that we've hit over and over and over. It's the same pattern, the same conversation. This conversation has been fantastic, and I hope the audience is listening. Feels the same way. As soon as you finish it, then you start to overthink it, and you question yourself. You give this great story, this great answer, Oh, but wait a second, was that good enough that I answer your question? I'm saying that to allow you to be aware of it, because that's what you continually did as we were going through this process of recognizing, do I provide value? How do I provide value? Oh, I guess maybe that there is value in that, right? So that that same journey that you and I have been through for the last two and a half years, this is the it's the exact same voice. It's that same habit that you have of questioning the value you are doing fantastically. You do not need to question it whatsoever you are you are in good hands, and you're doing an amazing job.

Kathy Robinson: Okay. Thank you. I just want to make sure I answer your questions, because, like

Zack Arnold: You're answering your questions, you're giving me everything that I wanted, and more, so there is literally no apology necessary. And I'm hoping, over the next 35 minutes, I want you to be able to answer with the full confidence, wow, that answer was pretty damn good, where it's going to be a little mini coaching session within this conversation. But here's the reason that I wanted to bring up the timing of all this, and we can go as deep or not as deep as you would like, but if we look at you decide that you're going to retire, then all of a sudden, COVID hits, or somewhere within the all of this is happening at the same time. You lose your mother, you lose your aunt, and now maybe you weren't totally aware of it, but the timing of trying to enter this industry literally is the worst time in our lifetimes, not in a generation, in a lifetime, this is the worst time to try and build a career in the entertainment industry and be a creative Yes, you talked about this idea of having hope. I think everybody in that situation would be completely and utterly hopeless. And I think a lot of people feel the same way. Now. I. So one of the the mindsets are really one of the skills that I talk about developing so so much with every facet of this program, is resilience. I think the most important skill for us to build the career we want to as a creative in this landscape is resilience. It's not how good are we at cutting montages or composing music or directing a scene or having a killer, pitch, reel. It's resilience that is the most important skill. So how in the world, with all of these things converging at the same time, did you just not say, Well, this was dumb. I'm just going to give up. This wasn't for me. I'm not cut out for this. It's too hard. I'm going to come crawling back to the FBI. How did you have the resilience to work through all this and be on this call to talk about where you are now.

Kathy Robinson: Wow. Well, one thing I haven't mentioned, I I do see a therapist, which, you know a lot of people don't. You know it's taboo, especially in the black community. It's

Zack Arnold: My response is good for you. And thank you for sharing that, by the way, yeah,

Kathy Robinson: Yeah, and it's I shared with people. I've learned that it helps me, and I'm proud of the fact that I seek help. So a big part of where my resilience has come in and my attitude is talking to someone, and I've been seeing this particular therapist for about five years, but especially during the 2020, when I retired, he said one thing that's important when you retire is that you have to build a habit, and part of building that those habits will enable you to plan out your day and your future. So he said, start every day by making your bed. This thing simple enough, because I didn't like doing that. There were days, whatever, weeks I didn't do that. He said, Just start simple, like that, make your bed, and then once you make your bed, then make another little plan, like, Okay, I'm gonna do my grooming, and then I'm gonna go for a walk. And when you go for a walk, maybe walk a block, that block turns into two, and that two turns into a mile, or whatever. But it just is building blocks, and it's the chess thing. Again, you start doing little things and they, you know, you build on it, like blocks, like Legos. So that was a huge part of helping me get through that time, when it was was so difficult I was going through what should have been the highest of highs. I mean, I actually, when I graduated, I had a job lined up, and it was all that went to shit,

and, you know, along with all the other tragedies, but talking it out and having a, you know, A plan, not just to sit around and do nothing, but just build on something. And that's

what helped get through that, that period, and I just kept going every since. So

Zack Arnold: I love this idea that you've broken it down into much, much smaller pieces. Because this, again, is one of the foundational strategies that we teach in this program, is breaking it down into the tiniest, smallest actions and building on them, largely teaching a lot of the things that James clear talks about in atomic habits, which is from many other those that understand the psychology of habit formation, shameless self promotion. Anybody can go into the archives, do a search for James clear, and I did an interview with James clear all about this, so I won't belabor it, but this may be coincidental. Maybe it's not, maybe you're aware of it. Maybe it's not. But do you know who popularized the idea of getting up and making your bed as a way to search your day?

Kathy Robinson: Wasn't it? Somebody in the service was,

Zack Arnold: it was a US Navy admiral. His name was William McRaven. So I just that just seems coincidental, given that you have a background in the Navy, that you were taking this great piece of advice from somebody that's, you know, was in the same space as you at one time. So yeah, but yes.

Kathy Robinson: Also, I'm sorry for kind of also through the optimizer? Well, I didn't. I wasn't an optimizer at the time, but later in when I did join, doing the meditations also helped. They still help, and I think that's really important doing the meditations with Debbie, because I had never done anything like that before. So. Once again, it's mindset and changing, something has to change, so that helps as well. Okay, yeah,

Zack Arnold: Yes, I'm very glad you brought that up, because Debby is, of course, lurking in the background, as you know, my my Podcast Producer slash coach. And you know, one of the one of the strategies that she teaches and one of the tactics that she teaches is mindfulness and meditation to again, kind of bring us back to that present moment and recognize, like, what is our intuition telling us, what are we feeling, rather than just kind of powering through? But yeah, for anybody that's listening, whatever it is that you might be going through or feeling given all the present circumstances in the industry, in your own life. I mean, if you literally lost your home and all the fires like that's still very present, at least based on when we're recording this conversation, I always advise you got to break it down into the smallest pieces. One of the mindsets that I learned when I was years ago starting to get into Spartan racing, which is basically marathon training on steroids, because it's not just running long distances, but it's running long distances with really steep hills and really rough terrain and crawling under barbed wire and climbing up ropes like it's just, it's, it's. There are a lot of challenges about marathon running that I think are different and even more than a Spartan Race, but there are a lot of other challenges with learning how to really run a Spartan Race effectively, and of all the physical things that I learned, they completely pale in comparison to the mindset shift, which is that when you're in this really, really horrible, painful, uncomfortable space, right, rather than trying to avoid it, just allow yourself To be in it and break it down into its component parts. So if you're literally crawling under barbed wire uphill on gravel, and somebody's spraying you in the face with a fire hose, and I've literally been in that situation before, you're not thinking, gee, how am I going to cover the bills next month? Or I can't believe that person didn't respond to my outreach email yet, you're just thinking, I just, I have to get I have to go 10 feet further. I have to go 10 feet further. I just have to get to the next tree, right? And it sounds like when you were in that space of all the these things converging at the same time, you said, You know what? One thing just going to make my bed, right? It's getting out and having that momentum to build on, and now that's led you out of this giant mess into where it is that you are now. Yeah. So having said that, what I want to drill into a little bit deeper is understanding a little bit more on how we got to your present situation. And I want to reverse engineer, how we were able to make this happen. When I say we, I largely mean you, but now it's kind of the, it's kind of, you know, the the Act Three reveal, or the Act Three climax. What is it that you're doing currently?

Kathy Robinson: Oh, currently, I am a TV assistant with the village of Niles is, Niles is a suburb of Chicago. It's about 23 miles northwest of Chicago. And just like you know, any small cable channels in the city, like I'm sure LA has them, Niles has its own cable network, and so I work part time with this network. I edit and I did my first shoot yesterday. Well, I helped set up cameras and stuff like that. So I've been at this opportunity for since December 11, 11th of 2024, and it's going great. The people are not toxic. I'm learning a lot, and I love the work, and I I know it's going to lead to better things because of all the things that I'm learning, and I'm taking it one day at a time instead of okay, now I got this job, and let me, let's see what I can make out of this. It's, it's the chess again, and I keep going back to that, because it's, I see how important it is strictly playing Go Fish is, is not lasting, or checkers. It's, you know, it because I did that, I reached for opportunities, got them, and when they don't turn out the way that I expected, it's because I dove into it too fast. I didn't give it any thought, I didn't do any research. I just they said yes, so I agreed, instead of being intentional about it and taking the time and planning, you know, because playing chess, eventually somebody's gonna say yes, all I need is one yes, and this was the Yes. Things that I needed. As a matter of fact, I applied for this position in January of 2024 and it took until December or November of 2024 before I got the job, because I applied in January, I got an interview in February, I didn't hear anything else until about May, and I got, I was called back for a second interview, and didn't hear anything else until August, so and it was because there were the village was going through a bunch of internal stuff, and I just kind of got lost in the my application just got mixed in or lost in the fray. So when it finally happened, I thought about it first, did the research. I actually met with my Mitch, who's my boss now, I met with him again, and I met the whole team. Actually, it's just me and Mitch, because it's a small network, but everyone that I will be involved with, I met, and they were very nice, and it was just a totally different atmosphere from what I've been dealing with in my other job. So that was you taking that to getting used to as well being, you know, waking up every Monday morning, going to a job that's 26 miles of 23 miles away, and I love doing it. I'm happy doing it that that's a new feeling. So that's why I am now,

Zack Arnold: yeah, well, I'm very, very excited and happy for you again. I knew that success was inevitable. I can always see it in my students. I just wish that I could give everybody a date and say, you know, in September of 2022, Kathy, stick with it on December 11 of 2024 it's all going to come together. It's all going to happen. Really wish I could have done that. Unfortunately, I can't. One thing is that just a bit of a side note that I want to make sure that anybody listening recognizes the importance of this. I think the expectation is I'm going to apply for something, and in 48 to 72 hours, I'm going to get a response. Then ideally I get the interview, and maybe the next week or two, I've got time to prepare. I do the interview, I hear back from them immediately. Maybe I schedule a second interview, but ideally, everything is tied up in a nice, neat little bow. In a few weeks, I can plan my life, and I can move forwards, and especially in this market and this economy, it's all over the place. And the reason I bring it up is most people, the vast majority, would think it must be me. There's something wrong with me. They don't want me as a candidate. I did something wrong, and then it demoralizes them. And by and large, it's usually the other people that are just kind of a disheveled, organized mess. So I'm really glad you stuck with the process and landed where you are, and unfortunately, it just literally took almost an entire year to make it happen. Yeah, none of which was within your control.

Kathy Robinson: No. And I actually, when I went back for my when they finally hired me and and I told the my future boss and his boss, I said, I thought you found somebody else. And it was that feeling, you know, I they didn't want me. I wasn't good enough, because I heard nothing, and they both told me that they were actually they were hacked, and they went through so they had to, it was, it was horrible. They had to go through a new system and all that stuff. So, yeah, so it, I hope people listening realize it's not always about you, it wasn't about me. It's a million things can happen. Yeah? So just with it.

Zack Arnold: And again, to emphasis idea of chestnut checkers or even go fish if you're just flailing in the in the water right now, obviously this is not Black Panther six, right? It's working for a relatively small cable access station in Illinois, not in Hollywood. But this is the next chess move. And I don't even know if we talked about it before. That was one of my most significant first chess moves. I also worked for a local cable access station in Southfield, Michigan, and that's where I started to really learn the basic craft. That's where I learned how to operate in AVID this was complete luck. I always talk about people say, well, Zack said luck doesn't exist. I've never said that. I believe that we ascribe too much of our circumstances to luck, but this was literally luck. My first week that I was hired as a summer intern, most of the department was let go, and they said, Well, we still have all these clients and all of these work, but we don't have enough people to do it. You want to edit and produce and shoot commercials over the summer. So basically, they got a full time Direct. A producer, editor for 650 an hour for the entire summer. And I was like, hell yes, because for me, it wasn't about the money. I was like, I think I was a sophomore in college, but I literally was getting credits creating commercials that were on local cable access and some of which were even distributed throughout the entire Southeast Michigan market. Granted, it it was for the local car wash and the mattress store and, you know, the mom and pop car dealership there. Come on down to Dan's auto body. But we got all these deals for you today, right? Like, it was that kind of stuff. It was, but that's where it started, yeah, but that's the kind of stuff that I did. And it wasn't a matter of, oh, I want to work in Hollywood, and this is stupid, and I'm just going to do a half ass job. It was. I get to learn how to composite graphics over video, and I get to understand how to import footage and cut footage in a timeline like it was one of the most creative periods I've ever had in my career, because I knew that it was a chess move. It was one of the first pawns. But it was having that experience and having those credits that got me my very first job in Hollywood, six days after my college graduation, working as an assistant editor at a major trailer house, because they said you already have real world experience and you have the skills necessary. Will give you a shot. If I had done that local cable access work, my my career would have been a completely different direction on Hollywood. So I just, I don't want you or anybody else in a similar situation to underestimate the value and the power of having this kind of an environment where you can learn the process and do it in a real world environment with deadlines and people that are actually going to look at it and view it like this is invaluable experience right now.

Kathy Robinson: Yes, yeah. And going back to the attitude thing, because my boss, you know, when he gave me my first assignment, which was editing the Niles, had a Christmas festi called it holly jolly, and they have the Grinch and all that stuff. And he said, You know, it's not, you know, it's not very exciting. But in in my mind, it is, because this is taking all this footage and once again, making a story out of it. And I, that's how I approach everything. Is there's a story here, and it's it's exciting to me, because I get to help tell it, no matter how dry it may seem or how whatever it's, it's part of the journey. It's, it's work, and it's work that I love, and I want to express or help tell this story, yeah,

Zack Arnold: Well, I'm very, very excited about all that for you, and what I want to do now is what I've been teasing through most of this episode, and I keep getting derailed by these much, much better stories. But here I want to get tactical for a second, and I want to go through a very brief exercise, because I want to help people understand how, instead of somebody looking at your resume and saying she's got how much experience in the FBI and she wants to work as an editor at a local TV station like this must be in the wrong pile. From that to oh my god, we would love to have Kathy. She'd be perfect. So I want to do kind of one very specific demonstration of a conversation that you and I have had, for anybody listening thinking, well, how the hell do I transfer my skills? How could I say that I worked in the FBI or for the Navy and work for a local, you know, TV station, right? So one of the very distinct stories I remember talking about, I don't remember the details, but luckily, you're a storyteller, so you can tell it again, is that one of your duties in the Navy was managing torpedoes. Oh, yeah. So talk to me a little bit more about that story, because I want to help people understand how you pull the narrative thread from that to say, even though I may have managed torpedoes in the Navy, here's how that makes me more valuable to you as an editor.

Kathy Robinson: Oh, yeah, yeah, I told part of that story for that something you helped me apply for it. Yeah. And I talked about, when I was in I was served as a torpedo man third class in the Navy, I had to do roving patrol work with torpedoes. Well, all the work well, those are the two major things I can remember. But with those jobs, especially the roving patrol, I and, oh, I know what else I had to do? I had to do working parties where, unlike going to the store, where you can get all your supplies, another ship comes alongside of your ship, and then you have to unload it with people. So I had to do all those things that I describe in adverse conditions, long hours, all kinds of hours, all types of night on a ship. So with all that going on, I managed to do all those things and do the. Successfully. So with all the things that come up in editing, in post production, the last minute changes, emergencies, I can handle all that because I handled it. Most of those things as as a torpedo, my third class in the Navy, and then all this, okay, I'm not going to do that again, but yes, I'm starting to be self depreciating again. But, yes, but,

Zack Arnold: but do you see what happened? You caught yourself this time. You weren't aware of it. 45 minutes ago, this time you were aware of it. You saw it. You caught yourself this time, yes, right? And I remember you, and I kind of workshopping an approach to one of your interviews, where, because it's, I think it took me, like a month or more to every single time you show me your resume, I'm like, where's the part about the Navy? Oh yeah, I forgot it. And then the next time, like, Kathy, you still didn't mention the Navy, right? Right? But then we use this as an example, so you could literally tell that story, and we kind of framed it as, you know, the if you really want to be engaging about it's like, listen, I get post production as chaotic. There's things going all over the place. It's like putting out fires. Let me tell you a little bit more about how I used to manage torpedoes in the Navy. So I understand chaos, right? Yeah. But rather than like, why would we hire somebody that's been in the Navy, it's like, oh my god. Like, if you can handle that, you'd be perfect for our organization. And that's why, when we go through specifically, if we look at the program design your dream career, it's not just a matter of, what are the companies you work for, what is the software that you're proficient in? We really focus on life experiences. What is it about your life experiences that bring unique value to the table? So rather than having a disadvantage, you can have an asymmetric advantage over your competition. So I would imagine that there are probably several other candidates that on paper. I bet they made more sense than you did. I don't know that for certain. Maybe that's something you could talk to them about, but by and large, you're going to get a few candidates that check all the boxes, but intuitively, without maybe even knowing why something just doesn't feel quite right. And I'm really glad that we were able to get you to the point where you knew how to, in a more confident, engaging way, tell that story. So even after months and months and months and months and months and months of them having you on, you know, on their list, there wasn't like, oh yeah, no. It's maybe we want somebody that you know has the exactly the right experience for us. So that tells me that something about you and your story and your energy really stuck with them.

Kathy Robinson: Yeah, and surprisingly enough, I didn't, did? I, yes, I did. Put the Navy on that. I did. I put all that stuff on there. And yeah, and I was, I was really surprised, but it just took so long. And when things take that long, it's really hard, and honestly, it's hard to have hope and be confident when it takes a long time. So what I did in between those periods when I hear anything, I reached out. I said, Hey, what's going on? How you doing? Just like you taught us and the and every time I reached out, I got a response to say, Oh, we were, we hadn't forgotten you. We were still working with other candidates, and we're looking at other candidate, you know, that regular spiel, so I, and I reached out twice, and each time it was we're still interested, just, we just need a little more time that kind of thing. And yeah, so the follow up is, is also important, because I didn't do that in in the in the past, I didn't hear anything in two weeks. They hired somebody else. But you just never know. Following up helps. Which leads me to my second interview that I had, which is with they are actually, he owns a production company where they set up filming. Well, they set up production equipment for medical schools. They want to, let's say you, you have knee surgery coming up, and they want to film it. So he, his company does that. They set up cameras and all that stuff. And when I first saw this opportunity, I applied. I applied on just, you know, this sounds interesting, even though I'm an editor, but what the hell it's it's experience. He answered me right away, and he said I was one of the first people the lower the only person from my old school that applied, and we developed a rapport. We just talked you. And he didn't have anything at the time. What? What it was the company, the school, that he wanted to that reached out to him, that wanted filming, they were still holding him up. They would had him in limbo. So are you going to do this or what? And say, Oh, we're going to do it. We will. We will. First, it was December, which is why he put out the, notice that he wanted crew, and it went from December to January. Now, now it's February. So in the meantime, we've actually, like two weeks after I talked to him on through zoom. We met for breakfast a week later, and we've just been in touch, and he's I reached out and said, Have you heard anything? And he said, No, I'm so glad you reached out, because I started to reach out to you. And in fact, I just heard from him two weeks ago, and he said, we're still waiting for this company to reach out, or this hospital reach out, and you know, I'll keep you posted so and and he also told me that if he if any editing work comes up, he'll reach out to Me, because he believes in helping people. So developing, it's not just about give me a job. Give me a job, it's about networking and making that relationship, and that's important, because regardless of whether or not I get a job out of this, this is a this is a very nice person, and when we had breakfast, I learned a whole lot about him and just just an interesting person, and it's no telling who he knows in this industry. So that's another thing. It's just the mindset of just this I can build relationship with these people, or this person or this company, and something great can come of it. Instead of I want something that's why I'm reaching out.

Zack Arnold: Very, very well said. And just to emphasize one further point, I always say that the magic is in the follow up. Yes, nobody follows up. They send something out into the world that doesn't get a response. Well, I'm moving on to the next thing. Either wasn't the right fit, something's wrong with me, whatever it is, I'm just going to repeat the same thing over and over. Send it out, send it out, send it out. The magic is in the follow up. Yeah, and the follow up is what leads to relationships, rather than transactions. And you literally checked all the boxes, did all the things, and here we are. So yeah, I want to finish up with what is essentially one question in two parts, okay, and I'm not going to give away the second part first. So the first part is, you had mentioned a few minutes ago this idea of, you know, really took long. And I would argue, in hindsight, it didn't take that long. I know it feels like when you're in it, but then in hindsight, you're like, you know what? This actually it came together. You know, maybe it happened faster than it felt like it was. But there's, there's always a sense of urgency, but kind of being able to see the much bigger picture of how long the general career pivot journey looks. I would say that it didn't take as long as you might feel that it did. But having said that, I want to, I want to jump into a time machine for a moment, and you're going to go back in time to whatever that moment was, where you either consciously or subconsciously made the decision I'm going to push forwards. You just retired from the FBI, just graduated. You lose your mom, you lose your aunt. That, to me, is an inflection point. That's one of those kind of sliding doors, moments you can go one direction or the other. So knowing what you know now, what advice would you give yourself at that moment?

Kathy Robinson: I would give my I would just say to to keep going. Yeah, that's what I would I would tell myself, just, I mean, I'm trying to think of what Marines would say, but I just, I can't, I'm lost. But basically that's the first thing came to my mind, is to just keep going regardless. You don't always have to feel like, and that's one thing I've also learned in, you know, since being part of the community, you don't always have to feel like, you know, pushing forward. This is like working out. You know how it is. It's you don't always feel like going to work out. You know, you know, you just, some days you just want to sit on the couch, you need chips, but you do it, and once you do it, it's not so bad. So I that's my advice. Just no matter how it feels, you just quitting is not an option. You just have to just he. Going and no matter how bleak it looks, and it does look bleak,

Zack Arnold: that is an understatement. All right, so, so now that I've primed you, here's the second part of that question. Oh, okay, we're gonna fast forward 10 to 15 years, and Kathy Robinson sitting on the chair for Black Panther six, the matrix 14 got only knows what the trajectory of this industry is going to go. Yeah, right, but the Kathy that's really made it. It said, Holy shit, I did it. She jumps into a time machine. She's sitting right next to you right now. What is she telling you? I

Kathy Robinson: It's been fun, hasn't it? Yeah, that's what's important. Just enjoy, enjoy the journey. Like I said at the beginning, it's because I know enough people who've and you've told me about, you know, and some of the classes, people who made it to this apex, they've won an Oscar, they've won Emmys, and it's still something's missing. It's not enough. It's, you know? So I think it's, that's what I would tell myself, it's, been fun. I mean, like I said at the beginning of podcast, taking this career path and being a creative has compelled me to do other things that are creative, like travel, like I saw the south of France for the first time in August, and it was wonderful. And I'm going on a cruise in April, at the end of April, to a Mediterranean cruise, and I'll see four other countries. So, you know, staying in this boxed in mindset, if I had stayed there, I wouldn't have done those things, you know, and another thing I did, which I am not into horror movies at all, and during on Christmas day, I went to see Nosferatu. And I am not like i said i or it's just, but this movie was so beautifully shot and so beautifully done. And it's scary, but all I kept thinking was, Wow, this is beautiful, you know, and and I was learning about the background of the original nos for Matu the Murrow who created it, and all the struggles he went through just to make a his version of Dracula. He actually had to shelve it because the widow of Bram stroker said you can't make this. And so the current director found, like a saved copy of it, and just built on that, and just learning all that, and just how determined he was to do this, and how beautifully it came out, that that's I would just tell myself to keep going try things and doing and seeing that, you know, just go out and try things and do something different. And I was so glad I did that, because, like I said, horror movies are not my thing on Christmas Day. So yeah, I don't know if I could mention that on your podcast. I'm sorry, but violation.

Zack Arnold: Nope, you could mention all of that. And I think that keep keep going and enjoy the journey along the way is is pretty damn good advice for anybody. So yes, having said that, I want to be very respectful of your time, but I can all but guarantee, having done many of these student case study episodes in the past, there are going to be people that want to reach out. There are going to be people that want to connect with you. There are going to be people that maybe want to build some relationships with you. So part A of the question, are you okay with that? And part B, how does somebody connect with you? If they want to connect,

Kathy Robinson: of course, they can connect with me. And if they want to connect, they can reach out to me through my email at K, as in kilo R as in Robin, O, as in Oscar, B, as in Bravo. B as in, bravo, I as an indigo, E as in, Echo, six, nine@gmail.com, so you still got the way,

Zack Arnold: the way that you just did. That was the perfect way to cap off today's conversation. I could not have scripted it better. The way that you did that was amazing. So yeah, so the colloquial, normal people version K Robbie 69 me, yes, we'll make sure to put it in the show notes as well. But now I couldn't have scripted that better. So this is yes, you are more than welcome, and thank you for having me. Thank you for you know, bringing yourself into the community and showing up every single day. Putting in the work and inspiring our students and now inspiring the larger community that we have built. So it's been a pleasure working with you together, and we're going to keep making those chess moves,

Kathy Robinson: yes, yes. And I'm looking forward to the next classes with Optimize Yourself. There's going to

Zack Arnold: be a whole lot more coming this year. So okay, great.

Kathy Robinson: Thank you. Happy New Year to you and Debby. Once again, I really appreciate it was great being here. It wasn't so bad. Thank you. Bye.

Episode Credits

This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared by Debby Germino and published by Glen McNiel.

The original music in the opening and closing of the show is courtesy of Joe Trapanese (who is quite possibly one of the most talented composers on the face of the planet).