Breaking Barriers: Rethinking Disabilities in the Workplace | with Taylor Lewis

About Episode

My guest today is Taylor Lewis who is an editor, writer, and disability advocate. He recently wrapped working as an Editorial PA on the Netflix feature film, Rebel Moon. But most of our conversation today focuses on Taylor’s advocacy for disability representation in every level of the entertainment industry so they can share their perspective in life. Taylor believes that the best story to tell about a person with a disability is one that focuses on what they do as a human being with the disability being secondary.

In our conversation, Taylor tells his story about how he got into the entertainment industry by turning down an entry-level job because he believes it was offered to him out of ‘charity’ (by the way, did I mention that he has his own unique disability that you’ll hear him talk about?). We also deep dive into the different definitions of the word ‘disability’ and how some disabilities exist simply through the systems we put in place. Taylor believes that accommodating disabled people at every level not only benefits them, but it benefits all of us.

I encourage you to listen to my conversation with Taylor as his views on representation and his advocacies will ask you to consider that in some contexts, everyone has a disability and a disability can also be a superpower.

Transcript

Zack Arnold: I'm here today with Taylor Lewis, who's an editor. He's a writer. He's a disability advocate. And you most recently wrapped working as an editorial PA, the upcoming high profile very anticipated Netflix feature film, Rebel Moon from Zack Snyder. But my opinion, the most important piece of your bio that we've left out is that according to you, you were frankly, just a large raccoon that's cosplaying as a small man did my research. Taylor, so glad to finally have you here.

Taylor Lewis: Great to be here to go out. But we got here.

Zack Arnold: It has been a while. And for anybody that wants to know what it's like with a podcast behind the scenes, it's a little bit of a shit show. And it's a lot of competing calendars. And you and I think we've gotten this on the calendar at least two or three different times, I've had to cancel it, you've had to cancel it. You know, feelings have been hurt, relationships have been severed. But here we are, we finally got ourselves in front of the microphone. And the reason that the amount of time that it took to schedule this doesn't bother me is because I think that the value of this conversation brings is timeless. There is no expiration date on the things that we're going to talk about that I believe are very important to near and dear to both of our hearts, which is advocating for those with disabilities.

Taylor Lewis: Definitely, yeah, I've been doing a lot of I mean, ever since I started in film, I've been, you know, focused on kind of helping that process work. And I guess for some context, for people who are just listening, I have a physical disability. And it's a connective tissue disorder that makes all my tendons or ligaments denser than normal. So about three times denser limits, my ability, my mobility, my flexibility, makes me kind of have lower endurance, and a lot of people, I'm also five foot feet tall. And so it kind of affects a lot different levels in my life. And also, you know, work in general,

Zack Arnold: Is there a name for it?

Taylor Lewis: Not really. So we haven't met anyone who has ever like seen anyone like me, there are people who have similar disabilities that have like similar effects. But mine is just a single gene mutation that doesn't come with anything else. So it's kind of an odd, an odd, unique thing. How special and fun for me?

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I'm sure right. And we're going to talk about being unique and special. And I want to dig deeper into the, the concept or the word quote, unquote, disabled, we're going to talk a lot of out of that. But I'm curious given that this is kind of a once in a lifetime kind of disability, what do people assume of you? Do they say, Oh, looks like you've got this or that? Like, what what do you get the most often?

Taylor Lewis: Yeah, it's a good question, honestly, because it's different. So often, I think people, a lot of people don't have a lot of interactions with people with disabilities. And if they do, it's with one specific person. So they really come with our own like, experience. And so it may be with someone who uses a wheelchair, it may be with someone with a mental disability, and maybe someone who is autistic or other nerds, neurodivergent people. So they come with all kinds different assumptions. And they bring those to me, which is interesting, a story that I like to share a lot, just because it's kind of funny, but also tells a lot about what people kind of assume is a while ago, I was out with some friends going to get dinner, and we parked in a handicapped spot. And my friend was driving, so he gets out and I get out of the passenger side and my other buddies get on the back. And this older man comes up to my friend and is like, which one of you guys is handicapped? Like, because he thought, you know, just a bunch of like, 27 year old dudes get out of a car, meet that he, you know, come and correct us. When I come around the back and I raise my hand, he's like, Oh, you get to really like upset and you know, feels a little uncomfortable. And, you know, bless his soul. I mean, he, he must have been really like, felt really self conscious about it. Because he comes up to me, and he says, Oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't know you were you were handicapped. You just looked so happy, which to him, I think was completely innocuous. But to me, it's like, Wait, so if I have people with disabilities can't be happy. That's Is that what you're saying? So I think that's kind of like a lot of people have these assumptions that like, maybe you know, to because of disability, you have to be struggling all the time, or you have to not be able to walk or you have to be in a wheelchair all the time. And there's all kinds of assumptions people bring.

Zack Arnold: Hmm, I've never heard it put that way before. I've done many interviews with people that have both physical and mental disabilities. For those that don't know that haven't been following the show, I literally have spent over 15 years now telling the story and getting the story out there, the first quadriplegic with muscular dystrophy to become a licensed scuba diver. And I've heard countless stories of the way that people assume that those either can or can't function because of disabilities. But I've never once heard it framed as, Oh, it didn't occur to me that you were disabled because you're happy. That is such an interesting way for somebody to look at it. And it reminds me of one of my favorite stories that Christopher Russia told that I think is relatively similar, where whenever he went to a restaurant and he was it was very clear that he was physically disabled. I mean quadriplegic, and especially in his later years, no muscle tone, no strength, and people would always ask at the restaurant, what is he having? Because the assumption is, well, he couldn't actually think or speak for himself. But the idea that because you are quote unquote, disabled, that limits your ability to be happy or fulfilled, that It's a whole new level of this conversation that I've never heard. And I've been talking about this for well over a decade. So that's, that's illuminating. And actually, it takes me down a thread that I think is very interesting in a conversation I've had with multiple people in the past with relatively similar pasts as you, which is this idea of, oh, good for you. Right. You, you, you got out today. Good for you. Taylor. I would imagine that you've had that experience. Once in your life.

Taylor Lewis: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I think that's a direct result, from the kind of representation we see in media, I think we we rarely see people with disabilities in film and TV. And when we do, it's about the struggle, right? It's because those are the most interesting stories for people to see. And, you know, they so they, they, we have these stories, where on the positive side, right, it's like, someone's overcoming something, they've had a challenge. They're there, but they feel really like, you know, down because of their disability, then they overcome it. And that's like, medium helpful. I mean, it's, it's positive, but it's not the best. And on the negative side, we have stories like Million Dollar Baby or me before you were like, it's like, because I am disabled or now become disabled, life is not worth living. And those are really the only kinds of people we see, for the most part, there are starting to become a lot better. But in the past, those were the main stories people saw about disability.

Zack Arnold: All right, so let's just assume you're running the entire industry, and you can Greenlight anything you want. What are the stories about disabilities that you want us to see in the you want to tell?

Taylor Lewis: That's a good question. So I used to do a lot of I used to do consulting for ad agencies, about disability representation. And I kind of for them, I like put into like three categories of like, what was like good, better and best, right, like, like a good story is those inspiration kind of stories where it's like, here they are, it's about them, it's about how they overcome, because it's great to see people with disabilities on screen, no matter what they're doing. The better version of that is like, here's this person, they're just living life, let's talk about how they live life with a disability. And then for me, at least, the best version of it is, here's this person, they're doing something entirely different. They're part of the plot they're doing, you know, they're just a mover and shaker in this in the story. Oh, and they also happen to be limb different, or use a wheelchair, or something. And so, like, any one of those is, like good to see. But the best version is when it's integrated naturally, and you don't even have to draw attention to it.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and those are the ones where when it doesn't feel like it's an agenda, or you have to shine a spotlight on it. And it's a matter of oh, this person also happens to be this thing. That's one of the those are the stories that I love the most. And that was one of my favorite things with my relationship with Christopher is that if you didn't physically see him and interact with him, if you were to just learn more about him and learn about the things that he achieved, etc, it was always he did all these things in Oh, PS, he also happened to to have this and people are like, that's, that's crazy. That's amazing. But to frame it that way, as they also happen to be fill in the blank or insert whatever the disability might be. Those to me also are the most compelling stories, but I do agree that there just needs to be better representation across the board. And I'm curious, in your estimation, what's in the best Category Name something that if I if I really want to be inspired by better storytelling, and I want to see what could be the wave of the future for a better representation? What's in the best category that's already out there?

Taylor Lewis: That's a good question. So what comes to mind so like for the kind of more natural just kind of part of the story not really draw attention. The first in the back of my head was like in Loki, one of the characters who's helping Loki when he first gets to the agency, whatever it's called the TBS TVA, it happens to be a little person. That's it. No, they don't draw attention to it. It's just, he's there. He's doing his job. Part of the story, really cool to see gives an actor a job, it helps people become more accustomed to just seeing people disabilities or people who look different around them. So that was really good. As far as like a direct story about disability, where it's like, that's the kind of the focus of it. I think peanut butter Falcon, the one with with a, what is his name? Charlotte, Charlotte boss, and then Zack, I remember his last name. Yeah, who has Down syndrome. And he was helped, like, it was his friends who wrote the movie, and they had him, you know, they had him as a part of the writing process. And the story is very, like kind of irreverent about disability in a great way where it's like, isn't like, you know, use kid gloves. It's like, here's a person they can handle being you know, being part of the joke being the butt of the joke making jokes about other people. You know, it's a really feels like a more natural version of kind of the things that I experienced or I've seen other people experience with disability.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and that's something that I want to talk a little bit more about is this idea of a reverence and just kind of talking about the elephant in the room and not trying to hide away from it or not playing with kid gloves because the the reason that I was so drawn to you almost immediately and the reason that I I mean, we talked for about three minutes and land our mutual friend, Len Chica Telo, who is also I will put a link to the podcast I do with him in the past. He had said you should really have Taylor on your Are show. And I can immediately see why he said that, because it's very clear visually that upon meeting you, there's some form of disability, there's no getting around it, it's not something that you can hide, it's visually apparent. But it wasn't the reaction of oh, well, good for you for having a smile on your face. It's I can only imagine growing up the kinds of experiences and treatment that you must have had. And I don't know whether it was all conditioning, whether it's just your nature, but there has to be some innate ability that you have to be able to direct the conversation very quickly from, don't pay, don't pay attention to the disability and instead be drawn to my energy and my personality and my enthusiasm, and the ability to say, don't see the disability. So I want to learn a little bit more about how you became you. Because for you to be an advocate for disabilities, you had to be molded in a certain way, where you could just face this head on and not be worried about hiding from it or shying away from it. So let's kind of talk about your origin story. And some of the situations that you've had to deal with growing up that have helped you become this strong and confident in who you are. Yeah,

Taylor Lewis: Yeah, so when I was born, I was born roughly in the shape of like a football, I was like, my arms are contracted in my legs were contracting. And it took years and years of physical therapy, to kind of become mobile and self sufficient and to be able to do things like you know, put my hands to my mouth, or you know, button, my own shirt and things like that. And I had some really amazing physical therapists, and occupational therapists, who didn't like, they didn't worry about like bathing me, they didn't worry about, like, if I could do it or not, like, here's the problem, let's solve it. And they let me kind of explore. And then I'll also have to credit my mother who, you know, a lot of parents of kids with disabilities are worried and because their child is, has different needs than other kids, and, you know, they're worried about them being bullied or them, you know, failing in some way or, or, you know, trouble but my mom, always kind of, she would, she would make things like, maybe even more difficult for me on purpose to like, to like, because she knew that I could do it. And if I you know, as a kid, right, you will think the easiest way out every time. And so she'd like, she'd like, you know, like, I'd be like reaching for something, and she's like, move it slightly further. And then she knew I could reach so I'd have to stretch more or something. And so, I think that she did a great job of like, of pushing me to move past those kinds of things, and then also never treating me like, oh, like kids are gonna make fun of you. She'd be like, so what? Like, doesn't matter? Like, what do you what are you gonna do? Like, they'll do what they're gonna do. And so I really credit credit her a lot. And then I think, for me, at least, part of like, the benefit of having such a visible disabilities that it's out there, it's right away, can't hide it. So don't bother. And I think a lot of people who have less visible disabilities, whether their mental, you know, learning disabilities, or their neurodivergent, or something, that's a real struggle, I think to be because people assume that you can do anything they ever know it's gonna do, and you might need some some help with something. And so you have to broach that topic right away. I'm starting where people expect almost nothing. And I had to surprise them with what I can do. So it's, it's kind of a benefit in a lot of ways.

Zack Arnold: Hmm, interesting. So basically, you're you're playing off of the assumption of extremely low expectations, you can far exceed those expectations very, very quickly.

Taylor Lewis: Yeah, I always make the joke when I'm like parking is that I can park cricket because people will see me parked in the blue stall, and like, Oh, he's trying his best good bread. You don't have to worry about parking straight or doing anything crazy. Because it's more than expect anyways.

Zack Arnold: I love that. Do you have any other great icebreakers as soon as somebody meets you just to kind of help alleviate what sometimes might be the tension or uncomfortable feeling that some people get?

Taylor Lewis: I make lots of jokes about my size, or about how I look, I you know, I like to joke to people, they look a little bit like if Pinocchio moved to the city and got a college education. A little bit like a pop like that? Yeah, I don't know. I'm just like, things like that, but not really, I mean, I think people will have the reaction they're going to have, and there's not really a lot you can do about it, all you have to do is kind of wait to see if they can change their mindset because some people can and some people can't. And one thing I love about working in this industry, is that I think people, you know, across the board, on average, tend to be more open to just changing what they think about me more quickly than maybe in a business setting, when I've worked with like advertising, or I used to work for a newspaper, and that was a lot more, you know, set in their ways a little bit as far as assuming what I can and can't do.

Zack Arnold: So given that people can make these assumptions about what you can or can't do. I know that when you were a little bit earlier in your career, you tried to go kind of one specific and more kind of, you know, what's the best way that I can put it kind of the more commonly walked path, right, no pun intended for where that can be its own struggle. But talk to me about where you first started realizing that there is an actual limit to what I'm capable of. And the way that the industry is designed, is kind of playing on some of those limitations.

Taylor Lewis: Yeah. So earlier, because it was a few years ago, maybe during COVID I was transitioning from from advertising. And I worked in post production for advertising for a while. And I was translated into two feature films, I wanted to get into entertainment. And I got the opportunity, the amazing opportunity to work on Rebel Moon, through group effort initiative, which is an amazing organization, they help place people with all kinds of either disabilities or people from minority groups in entry level jobs. And so I got the the, they said, they called me up and they're like, Hey, we got it, we got to open it in like a week. And it's what the camera department are you in, and I'm like, I, I've done some camera work in the past, but on like, low small scale things, who are, you know, why not, I'm gonna, I'll give it a go. And within about a week, it was pretty clear that it was something that I that I was not going to be able to do even with accommodation. And then for people who don't know, what being a PA in the camera department entails, it's mostly running in grabbing things, lifting batteries that weigh 25 pounds each, you know, hauling cases, reaching high things, just standing on set all day, you know, 12 to 14, and maybe even 16 hours in a single day. Crazy hours, it's very physically strenuous. And that's not something that's that's a unique to the camera department thing, a lot of jobs that are entry level, you end up trading your physical ability for kind of your lack of experience. So they they rely on being able to use your, your, you know, the your physical skills and your you know, your energy to to get what they need done. And it kind of creates a barrier for people who can't do that. So I was doing that for that week. And I was, I knew that it wasn't sustainable, like I was barely functioning. And I think another thing about it, too, is that everyone I talked to was really, really willing to accommodate me, the all the camera department was amazing, the producers were amazing, the production office team was like really, really helpful. But that comes to a point where you can't accommodate something anymore, you know, it stops being a job. So like, for me being a PA, like, if I need someone to carry the things that I'm supposed to carry as a PA, just hire them, like, it's not a charity, I'm not there, I'm there to work, I'm there to be part of the production. So you know, I discussed that with, with the camera department team and also with the amazing production office. And they helped move me to editorial, which was something that I'd already done a lot of in the past. So it worked out really well. But that idea of like, we can't accommodate these entry level jobs, because they are, they are what they are was kind of a newer thing for me.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I can see very much so where it wouldn't no matter how much accommodation, or how much I really wanted to make it work for you. There's this barrier of Listen, the job is you got to carry stuff, and you got to go back and forth. And there's a certain amount of physical capability. So I can see, you know, feeling helpless in a certain sense. But when it comes to other aspects of it, I feel like maybe it goes beyond just the idea of physical capability to move things. One of them being you mentioned, you know, working really long hours. And my first response is, that's not going to change in post production, my friend, right, not going to be any less hours there. But so beyond just kind of the the limitations of working in such a grueling industry that day has no value whatsoever for respect of time or boundaries, or work life balance. But then the other one is the assumption that you can kind of afford to do it for free. So let's talk about how that factors in to those that are already managing disabilities in their lives. Because that is another limiting factor to allow people to learn and climb the ranks the way that other people might have access to.

Taylor Lewis: Definitely, I think we're already seeing I know that the Writers Guild is already they've, they've addressed this problem or not, in fact, they're addressing this problem where they're seeing that the only people they get as writers assistants are, you know, kids who are being supported by their parents, because no one else can afford it. And I think it's the same for every entry level job, right, where you're expected to work for very minimal pay very long hours without insurance. And people with disabilities, it's, you know, I would hesitate to quote the exact number because I can't remember, but it's a there is, you know, a lots of studies that have gone into this idea that people with disabilities, you know, it costs more to live with a disability than living without one. And that cost is measured and is is substantially higher. And the prospect of living without insurance when you have a disability is is far greater than just if you're like, you know, strapping 20 something year old kid who, who only gets sick every four years. And so it's definitely it filters people out I think and maybe filters, I think in the past, right? They've used the rigor of these jobs to kind of see who really cares to be there. But the unintended consequences and it filters out a lot of people who do care, but they just can't manage.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I would agree with that, as well far beyond just those that have physical disabilities certainly applies to those with like, we've talked about the mental disabilities, the emotional disabilities, and this next one, which I think for many might come off as like, well, that's a strange way to put it. But for those that have disabilities as far as skin color or background, and I don't think anybody with the traditional definition of the word disability I'd say, Well, the fact that you're African American or Asian or anything else, so those are disabilities. But I want to talk about how the word disability, at least in my estimation, is, is a lot more about context than it is about any form of true limitation. So what I would like to dive a little bit deeper into is your definition of the word disability.

Taylor Lewis: Yeah, it's I mean, there's, there's the medical, medical definition of disability. And then there's the social definition of disability. And, and those two kind of, I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I think it's a pairing of both. But on the one side medical, right is your maybe what most people think about disability where it's like, you have a, you know, condition or disorder or some kind of physical, like measurable difference from the norm, that limits you in some way, whether that's mental, physical, emotional, you know, whatever. On the other side, right? There's the social definition visually, which is that disability is just a difference from the social norm. So we set up systems in place to benefit the average person, and anyone who's not fitting that average, is now disabled in some way. And so I think, you know, what you were talking about, as far as any kind of minority group, I think that there's a lot of crossover, both, literally, there are a lot of people with disabilities, who are also part of those communities. But also, I think, we share a lot of the same struggles, those communities have, as far as something that we didn't choose, it's unchangeable about us, is limiting us from succeeding. And not because it should, but because other people decide that it is.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I love the way that you put all that and I just want to keep digging deeper into this, because we're very much in alignment, in our viewpoint and definition of this term, as I feel that many others need to see it this way and broaden their perspective, one of the things you said is, it's something that I cannot change, right? I have this conversation all the time in my coaching program, where the this is basically the the title of the the documentary go far is actually a motivational framework that I teach all day, every day where it's setting goals, overcoming obstacles, you focus and you prioritize, you're putting together an action plan, that's the A and then ours review and reflect. Right? So we're talking about the obstacle section, and I broken it down into three separate kinds of obstacles, which are their challenges, their limiting beliefs, which are more the feelings and emotions that we have in our head, and then their disabilities. And I always get the same reaction for people. Why didn't put down any disabilities, I'm not disabled. Like, yeah, but we need to talk about what this really means in a certain context. Because there, there are qualities about you, there are things about the way that you're built or designed that cannot change that in one context are considered a disability. When all you do is switch the context that disability can then for certain reasons, become a superpower. Like, oh, well, I never thought of it that way. And example that comes up all the time as a neuro divergence in ADHD. Oh, I'm so ADHD and distracted. So I guess my disability is I'm ADHD. And the word disorder is even in the ADHD, which drives me it's not a disorder, or a dysfunction. in certain contexts it can be. But once you learn how to better harness it and reframe it, it can become a superpower. And that's more why I want to work with this definition of disability. And it's that well, disabilities, I guess it's a synonym for handicapped people, or those that are less abled or impaired is something that you suffer from, right. I just, I hate all those definitions. And the reason I say this, and I've gotten in trouble for this more than once, but the term that I stand by, to I will fight on this hill to the death is that everybody has a disability. And frankly, I think everybody has multiple disabilities. And it's our acceptance of it's something that in a certain context, yes, this is something that I might struggle with, it's hindering me. But when I circumvented by reframing my perspective, or looking for an alternate way around, it might actually become my superpower or it becomes a strength. So having said that, are we in agreement about our perspective about how we can define disability going forward?

Taylor Lewis: Yeah, you know, I think I think that we can remember that, like, there are things because I think, like there, there are things that limit us, right, and there are things that are kind of unavoidably limiting, but it's all about the context. I think another important element of it is realizing that a lot of things are disabilities purely because of the systems that have been set in place. You know, like, the thing that was was exciting, but also infuriating for a lot of disabled people was when COVID first hit right for years and years and for decades, people disabilities have been told you cannot work from home. It's an impossible you won't be productive you won't get anything done no one can work remotely sorry we're not gonna hire you. It's impossible COVID hit everyone had to work from home suddenly, people with disabilities who had been told they couldn't work from home or wouldn't be are needed special help but it weren't getting it because it was too inconvenient or too expensive or, or would hinder productivity. Suddenly were accommodated because everyone else was which is amazing because people you know, were able to to finally get the accommodations they needed, but also like a little fresh. Because like, come on guys, for years, you've been telling us No. And now it's like everyone is fine. And so I think changing systems is a huge part, there's a organization called the one and four coalition who's a, it's a bunch of industry professionals in the tremendous industry. And they're focused more on like this, like changing the systems, changing the structures, in order to help people who have disabilities be able to function, you know, in the system in, in a setting without having to worry about whether or not they get accommodations and whether or not because then the disabilities start to disappear where, you know, sure, you may use a wheelchair, but it's no longer a disability, because the bathrooms have ramps, which is something that is surprisingly rare on sets, you know, rebel Moon was really helpful in a lot of ways. But one of the things that was like, there were, there were, and you guys didn't see him, but the bathroom situation, there were no ramps, so we I don't know, if we had anyone on set, who would have needed them. But the fact that they didn't have them, it kind of tells people, Hey, we don't really care about this. And it's not them specifically as everyone, I think there's a lot of, I have a whole folder in my phone or an album on my phone of photos of people parking illegally and hanging up spots, or putting like trash or garbage in handicapped spots, or, you know, whatever it is, and it's, you know, sure, maybe someone doesn't need to at that moment. But by doing that, you're saying, you know, we're gonna reinforce this system that that doesn't help you function.

Zack Arnold: So let's start digging into some of these systems, that if we're looking at disability as a specific context, and not a limitation, it's not something that suffers from, but it's something that if we're in a specific context becomes a disability or limitation, what are some of the structures or systems that if we all are in agreement are hindering people's access to learning and growth and realizing their potential whether physically, mentally, creatively, otherwise? What are some of these that you're most likely already paying attention to unaware of, but those of us that are just going about our days will be like, Oh, that never occurred to me, like, what do we need to start paying attention to?

Taylor Lewis: Definitely, we'll start with a success, something that's already kind of happened. So you know, for the longest time, like getting closed captions and things was was really difficult for people. And it wasn't, it wasn't very common, you'd have to really like go out of your way to try and find things with closed captions, or have your own special equipment. But now, I think a lot of people are the I don't know, the stats are but the majority of people watch content with with captions on now, which has opened the doors for you know, you know, people who would need them, because, you know, they either are hard of hearing or deaf, and a whole bunch of technology has been developed to help create cavities automatically. And so we're seeing this whole world open up. So that system that was our content is audio visual only, you know, where you have to understand you have to be able to hear people to understand what's going on, as kind of swapped over fully, almost two animals, everything you see will have some kind of cabinets, they may be a little wonky, because it's aI generated, but it'll get you half the way there and it's only getting better. That's a great one. For me, one that we really need to work on is kind of what we're talking about earlier, as far as understanding that we can't have every entry level job in the industry be reliant on physical ability, because it's limiting people in a way that is not helpful is also not representative of what the real needs of a job are. So like for the camera department, right? Like to be a PA, you have to be the lift and carry and stand and do other things to be a DP though, most DPS work on remote monitors, they can sit in a chair, you can do it easily, with almost any ability level, I've seen people who use different, you know, apparatuses with their mouse to control cameras, who don't have any other control of any of that or the limbs. So it's, it's, you know, there's plenty of room for accommodation, when you get to be the top. But on the bottom level, there's nothing and you're kind of it just funnels people out of these industries, and out of these jobs into other things.

Zack Arnold: So right now we're talking about the most recent project that you worked on was high profile Netflix film, you are moved into post production, you've done consulting for other agencies. But if you could go down any path, no limitations, the system is not getting in your way. What is the path that you really want to go down? That's the best fit for you.

Taylor Lewis: So I kind of lucked out because I like I like editorial.

Zack Arnold: Well, who does and I write, we're the real cool kids.

Taylor Lewis: Yeah, we get the final say on everything, and get to watch everything as it comes in, which is great. But I mean, like I do enjoy the I do enjoy the title I'm gonna and the art of the camera department and I the you know, the offer was exciting to me, even though I was a little bit suspicious that I probably couldn't do it, but I thought I'd give it a go anyways. But, you know, there it is. It was it was even though it wasn't my dream. It was definitely a harsh reality right to see that. And I think there are a lot of people who that is their dream or maybe they don't know it syndrome because they've never considered it because they thought it was impossible. So for me I kind of I'm lucky because I'm going down a path that I enjoy already. And I kind of fell into it pretty serendipitously but for a lot of people I think that they are told, you know, you can't do this, you should go work in an office, you can be in the production office or something or you can, a lot of people are told they need to be writers, because that's the only one. And there are only so many jobs for writers. And it's not the only way that you can share a story or increase a presentation or be creative. So people kind of get funneled into this nearly impossible task of becoming a writer.

Zack Arnold: So I want to noodle with this a little bit more, dig a little bit deeper, and really understand this from both perspectives, this idea of what are the systems in place that are hindering those with a disability. And again, by our definition, it's not, you're in a wheelchair, although that could be one of them. It could be your ethnicity, it could be your economic status could be a whole host of other things. But for now, I want to continue with a physical one, because it's just the most obvious and it's the simplest to play with, you're going down the path of wanting to get into post production, and you want to climb the ladder in the ranks of post you liked that part. And you've been put in a position where you are a post PA, and you are unable to drive because of your physical capabilities. So I'm sorry, I should have specified that. So hypothetically, you're in the position that you're in, but you're unable to drive. Okay. So I'm coming at you as a producer. And I'm saying I would love to be able to advocate advocate for you and help out. That's already running and getting lunches. It's just kind of the job of the PA whether it's the system or not, can't help you out. This, to me seems like it, it's an area where I can see it from both sides. But there's got to be a way to tweak or modify the CIPS system. So we can both be more open ended more open minded, and we can open the door for more people where maybe it's not that you can't physically drive, let's say you're in a position where you can't afford a car. How do we solve a problem like this? Where a lot would say from both sides? And I can kind of see their perspective?

Taylor Lewis: Yeah, and I think that's a hard task. Right? And I don't know, I don't know what the like, logistical answer is, as far as when it comes down to the practices people put in place. But I think the thing to remember is that the job of a PA, like the actual things you do, they're not preparing you to become an editor, they're, they're just getting you close enough to the process of editing. So that you can become, you can become aware of what it takes, and you can slowly glean that kind of knowledge and also gain mentorship from from people who are doing it already. And so understanding that you can realize, oh, maybe there's another job in the office that needs to be done that, you know, creed, they can get the same kind of mentorship, who maybe wouldn't normally be associated with the editorial department, but maybe, you know, you need someone to manage the servers or you need someone to be an office PA, but they can just work in the editorial department, and still do normal office tasks, but just be around that atmosphere. So I think a great deal of creativity needs to be involved. Also kind of understanding that the way we have it, just because it's the way that like, you know, someone who's in charge did it doesn't mean it's necessarily the best way. I think there's a lot of people in the industry were like, it was good enough for me. And like, okay, I guess, but you barely made it, you know? So let's, let's really examine this.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I think my belief is that the fundamental fallacy behind almost anything, that doesn't work. In any industry, I'm not talking about just this conversation, just in general on life is the following. Because that's how we've always done it drives me absolutely crazy. Well, just because that's how it was done before doesn't mean that it can't be changed and be done differently or better in the future, especially if it's going to help rise all the boats with the lifting tide. And I think that's the piece that's just so sorely missing in the entertainment industry, disabilities or otherwise, well, this is just the way we've already done it. This is how people pay their dues. And this is the system, the system's not going to change until we change individually. And we proactively decide we're not going to accept the way the system works anymore.

Taylor Lewis: Definitely. And I think too, another thing to remember is that, like, a lot of people want to ease into it, where they're like, oh, we'll help some people who are maybe a little easier to accommodate first, which is great, you know, the more people the better. But, you know, historically, the most change comes when you go to like, the extreme of what you can do and say, Okay, how can we, how can we help this person who we would have never thought we could, you know, help get into this industry, help them be productive and, you know, be you know, participate in this change the systems so that their own creativity and their own, you know, work ethic can come into play here. And, you know, we we've seen that a lot with like, there are lots of inventions that have been made for people with disabilities, you know, like, like text messaging was made for people with disabilities, and then it filtered into kind of common use same with like the curb cuts, you know, where they cut out sections of the curb, you know, everybody uses those, but it was made for people with disabilities. And so if we start at that end, those you know, those you know, more extreme or more significant changes can filter down and help everyone because the truth is that everyone can become, you know, physically disabled at some point, whether it's, it's temporary through, you know, I think we're seeing a lot of people with long COVID. That's a real a real disability. And it's really difficult for a lot of people, and it wasn't something they expected. And then everyone with age, you all, everyone becomes disabled in the end. So I think remembering that and be like, Oh, the more we help people who maybe are on the like, end of the bell curve, as far as averages go, the more it'll filter in to just everyone in helping everyone.

Zack Arnold: That I've never heard it put that way before. But there's that just totally stuck with me. And I'm probably going to be quoting this for the next 10 years, everybody becomes disabled. In the end, nobody is immune to disability. And as I've been teaching, for years and years, this concept, everyone has a disability, even for those that don't believe it, you can't deny that everybody's going to become disabled in the end. So you might as well just learn how to advocate for those that may be more disabled. Now, make sure that the systems are in place so that when the time comes, that it's you on the list, well, then maybe you'll be treated a little bit better than those are treated right now that are dealing with the same ailments, or anything we can do to make the world better, not just for ourselves, but for those and others that are going to walk similar paths behind us. The maybe I'm getting into the meaning of life conversation a little bit too early today. But it just seems to me like what else should we be doing with our time? Right. It's not really about the personal accolades, and the the awards and the you know, we're, I believe we're here for something bigger. And one of my favorite quotes that you have that's kind of along those lines. And I'm just curious to get your take on, as you said that, well, I've won several awards, but you know, none of them of which are very important. That's, that says a lot, and very few words. So talk to me about some of these awards that you've won. But how in the end, it's like, Is this really what this is about?

Taylor Lewis: Well, you may give me a little too much credit here, because they are literally not very important. It's like, you know, Film Festival from New Hampshire, Southern New Haven something or other or things like that. But I think, you know, I think the to extend it to maybe other people who have been wanting to actual awards, they're still not important. You know, I think in the end, you know, we give each other awards because we appreciate things that other people do. But no one really cares in the end, right. Even even the the height of awards, the Oscars, as people would want to have you believe, you know, they will remember is really in the end, but they are you may mention it, just like to convince a friend to watch a movie like, oh, I want an Oscar. But besides that, like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't last as much as as a real physical change that helps people's lives.

Zack Arnold: Yeah. And I think that the more you learn about the just the deeper psychology of happiness or fulfillment of attainment of either material possessions of wealth of accolades, across the board, universally, it's not just the Oscars is not just Hollywood, I just feel that Hollywood in the entertainment industry are kind of the, the global epicenter of it's all about me, and I want to climb to the top and I want to collect all the things, but it really is pervasive across so many industries and across the world. But they find that there's an inverse proportion, between the collection of happiness and accolades and personal wealth and happiness and fulfillment. One goes up and the others goes down. There's, there's gotta be more to it than this. And everybody would net maybe not everybody, but I know for me, and many of the people that I know, in this industry, when you're younger, it's all about the getting on that stage holding the golden statue. But the more you talk to people that have won the golden statue, there have one of two mines, either I thought it was going to change anything, but it just made my life more miserable. And I realized how important it wasn't. Or they're like, Yeah, I've got it. And you know, it's on the shelf back there, if you want to take a look at it. That's an Oscar you're like, Yeah, you know, I just, I just do the job because I love it. I just love the process. And I love storytelling, and it kind of helps you focus on what matters more.

Taylor Lewis: Yeah, you know, I, there's a, there's a, he's a filmmaker, and also an activist in the UK, named Jack Thorne, who's done a lot of work, I don't know, if you've, if you've heard mentioned what he says he's done a lot of work as far as helping, you know, communicate, you know, the necessity and also kind of the benefits of, of increasing accessibility of representation, and doing the things and I think, you know, hearing him talk about what he's accomplished, like, those are the kinds of things that I think, you know, I would value and of course, like, you know, I love a good shiny party with awards and being praised. Like, I'm not, you know, some kind of, you know, a saint who doesn't enjoy those things. Like, I'll take it for sure. Like, never would refuse. But when I think about, like, what I want, more than anything, I think, making something that increases, you know, people's people's compassion, I think for other people or understanding in some way that I feel as true is something that I want.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and ultimately, the reason we do what we do, or at least I believe the majority of us that are doing this for the right reason this in this industry is that we want to tell stories, because stories help us make sense of the world and make sense of our world and in Your case, it's bringing more compassion and understanding and empathy to understand the perspective of those that have different challenges. Like that's a really important thing that can not just improve the life of those with disabilities, quote, unquote. But for everybody. Definitely. Yeah. So that's, that's one of the key things that I really want to emphasize here that I know it's equally important to both of us is that I feel for several years now, beyond just the physical or mental disabilities, but specific with socio economic status and specific with race, there has been this conversation of well, we need to let in all the people that had been shut out by the system, and then the fight is well, yeah, but then all the people that are more qualified, now they're getting shut out like the I've heard this conversation with so many of my clients, where they say, Well, you know, I'm middle aged, I'm white, and I'm male, I am unemployable in the industry, right now I go, it's so unfair. It's kind of like, Yeah, it sucks. But like, welcome to the new world. And there has to be an adjustment, where there's going to be a period of time where those that didn't have access, they have to gain the experience, and there will be some equilibrium. And right now there's a lack of equilibrium. But the point here that I want to bring up that I think is so important to both of us, is that it's not just for their sake, well, it's their turn, and we need to give them their shots. And if we're talking about people with physical or mental disabilities, well, all right, I mean, I guess the fair thing is we need to give them their shot. Talk to me about how from your perspective, this isn't just about helping those that were getting their shot. This actually helps everybody.

Taylor Lewis: Yeah, so when I was doing consulting for agencies, something I'd bring up was the like, there's, there's legitimate, like, financial benefit, right? And I think like not that that is the only reason we should do things. But we're business right. So I think bring that up and understanding that, like, there is a you know, I think the CDC defines us as a defined disability, they, they see that around 25, or 24%, maybe it's up to 26, now of the US has a disability. And then if you take a maybe a more strict definition, I think the world who did it, but they're the kind of average in the world is about 15%, right, kind of more strict definition of disability. And there's billions of dollars of people who they want to spend their money on seeing something that they feel represents them or a story that they care about. And telling those stories is only really possible if you have authentic people telling them. And, you know, you could like hire one writer who has a disability to write something, or you could hire people throughout the entire process, who all have their own little creative input about what disability is, and their own experience life experience. And they can help change the, you know, change the script to as well because I mean, the change the representation, because, you know, I think it's it's really easy to misrepresent someone, when you've never met them. But if you're seeing someone face to face, it's a lot harder to create a harmful stereotype about someone, or to tell a story where you show them as being, you know, something that is negative or that they're not. And so, you know, I'm a big advocate of not just like trying to increase our presentation in the writing side. But in every level, you know, even if it's something like a PA, like a PA, if someone sees a PA on set who has a disability, that's one more point of reference they have, for the next time, they're making something where they can be like, Oh, I know that these people exist. And I should probably represent them and what I'm doing, and maybe they might hire someone next time, who is a script supervisor, and then maybe the next time that they might hire someone to write this script, so it kind of builds its way up from the bottom. And the only way to really do it is to start hiring people to be productive in the industry.

Zack Arnold: Yeah. And ultimately, at the end of the day, if we're just talking about creating entertainment, it just makes for better stories. Yeah, we're just we're telling better stories that are more diverse that are from other people's perspectives. And it's not just the same unilateral perspective with differentiations and tone or a theme or language or dialogue. But we're seeing the perspective of entirely different worlds from people that there isn't a world. Everybody has their own world and their own unique way that they perceive reality, and life is just more interesting. And more just has more adventure and more value if I'm seeing it for other people's perspectives, and it's authentic as opposed to fabricate it.

Taylor Lewis: Definitely. We've been seeing a lot of really cool creative stuff right now using you know, with the deaf community using ASL like there was a great episode of the first season of only murders in the building that was all you know, with ASL and

Zack Arnold: Yeah, those are fantastic episode I loved one of my favorites of the whole show is great.

Taylor Lewis: And the last episode of The Last of Us on HBO, right? Just had a whole episode that kind of centered around a deaf character, and used a lot of ASL. And it you know, it's a new angle to these stories. And it's interesting to anyone you know, everyone I think, is fascinated by people communicating differently. And, you know, my dream one day would be to help write like a video game where you have a character who has a wheel uses a wheelchair, and that's the main character because like, what would that look like if you had Like a some kind of, you know, zombie game, but the person is in a wheelchair, what how do you how do they get around? How do they navigate this system? I would love to, you know, Neil Druckmann at Naughty Dog Call me anytime I'll call him. But you know, it's like that.

Zack Arnold: Yeah. So this all these are all things that can totally get behind. But I think it also gets into a little bit of a gray touchy area in the industry right now. And I'm going to be honest, this is not an area where I have a lot of experience. But there are now there is more representation on screen of people with disabilities. But there's also been a lot of blowback, because some of the people that are representing the disability don't actually have the disability. Yes. So talk to me a little bit more about how that's perceived. Because this, this is a really tough area to navigate.

Taylor Lewis: Definitely. And I'm going to mangle these numbers, so if anyone wants to look them up afterwards, but like every year glad, the glide Foundation does a study, they mostly focus on LGBTQ communities, but they also focus on disability where they analyze, you know, the the top television shows, and it's like something like 300, and something shows, and this year, and all the other categories that they studied, representation increased. So for, like, you know, people who are trans people who are part of the LGBTQ community, you know, all kinds of areas, they increased, but disability representation went down from like, 3.5% to like 2.8% of characters on screen. And then out of those 2.8% 90 plus percent, are played by people who don't have disabilities. Like just recently, I saw that M Night Shyamalan movie, the knock in the cabin, and they have an actress, the little girl who's supposed to be adopted from, I think Korea, maybe I can remember. And she has was with the character has cleft lip repair, and they just find an actress, they do a little line on her lip didn't even really make it look that real, because it doesn't even continue all the way down through the lip, which you know, people who have clicked to prepare, usually have a scar that goes all the way down and through. And they just like, call it again. And that happens quite often, where it's like, oh, like, let's throw a let's just put a green sleeve on them and CG off their arm. And it's like, they're there. Lots of actors out there, who are, you know, live different does hire one. It's not that hard. And so that Yeah, I think I think you're right, right. There's a lot of kind of frustration like you wouldn't nowadays, you definitely wouldn't do that with race. And you definitely, you probably wouldn't do that with gender. And you probably wouldn't do that with sexuality. But you would easily do it with disability instantly. And I, you know, I believe that with enough research and like care, people can play people with disabilities, like there's some great examples of that, where they really, really tried. And it was a big name, person, and they got the movie made, and they got people to watch it and to see this really good representation. But why bother going through all that trouble? When you already have actors out there who have a lifetime of experience that they can pull on? To play that character, it will make your film better?

Zack Arnold: Yeah. And ultimately, that's kind of what I wanted to talk about next was the trade off. Because this is a challenging gray area, in a perfect world. And the example that I always keep coming back to just because it was very high profile, and ended up winning an Oscar is the Theory of Everything, playing Stephen Hawking, right? So there's two ways to look at it. And I want to look at it from both perspectives just to workshop this, I'm not saying there is an answer or solution, I just think it's important to, to have the conversation and for people to think about the conversation, right? So the the story of Stephen Hawking, really important for people to hear that story. It's also important, ideally, it has somebody playing Stephen Hawking that we would hope has a similar disability. But what's more important, getting the story made in front of people in a wide audience, knowing that the best way to do it is with a very talented actor, that you can put the name on the post, or you could get it financed, you can get a release, and he can win an Oscar versus somebody that because it's show business, like you mentioned, probably couldn't get it made at the level that it was, or they're just not nearly as good. And it would be a good story, but not an amazing performance. How do you balance that? Because that's kind of where I feel we're stuck in certain respects right now.

Taylor Lewis: Definitely. And you know, I don't have the answer to this. But my, my perspective on it is, well, let's start building these stars these these, let's start building these talents. Because these, you know, Eddie Redmayne, would you there was a mic there, everything's

Zack Arnold: Correct. Yeah.

Taylor Lewis: He didn't just, you know, pop into existence for that film, right. He had years and years of training experience and projects and films, and working with some of the greatest people to help him, you know, move forwards. So, you know, ideally, right, it would be great to have someone with, you know, who actually uses a wheelchair, play that character. But in the end, we got to start somewhere. And we also I think, one of the things that I've always talked to these go to the adages about is there, there's a degree of, of charity that we need to have for people on both sides. So like, the people who are making these things who maybe not don't have disabilities, they need to understand that they need to be like, go outside their normal, you know, situation and find people to represent and these stories that are that they've never told before. But the people whose stories are being told, you know, people with disabilities who feel underrepresented, they need to understand that, like, we're not if we shoot for Project perfection immediately, and then get mad at anything, that's not that nothing's ever going to change. So I think accepting good representation when it happens. And also saying, Well, hey, maybe you know, the main character in this, you know, blockbuster film, that's that it needs a huge star to carry it. Maybe. Ideally, it would be someone but we can't this time. But if it's a side character, like who no one knows, anyways, you know, let's do that. Let's focus on those things. So for me, it's like, Let's build these speed least talents. Let's get rid of like this, the henchman with a scar for no reason, or the, you know, those kinds of things. And let's, let's start at the ground and go forwards.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I think that the the key point here that I just want to re emphasize that I think is important, the way you put it, I think is really, really strong as well, there needs to be charity on both sides. It's not just we need charity for, you know, the the poor, disabled people that need the representation for their sake, because you know, it's the fair thing to do. We want to give them some charity to bring them in. But then on the other side, those that want a disability representation, well, they need to have some charity for understanding this is a really complex problem, you're not going to score a touchdown on the first throw, you got to slowly move the ball down the field. And knowing that in certain cases, if it's going to require a huge star, and it's for the sake of getting the right story out there, well, then that might be one of those that is worth it. But again, and this is such a key point, if it's not the main face on the poster, but it's an important driving character or storyline. But does it really matter if it's a huge star or not? Like yeah, that seems to me like the perfect place to allow people. And again, this concept of building a better and different system. That's where they start to gain the credibility credibility in the experience. So it's not just Well, I don't know, I got anybody out on the sidewalk that's in a wheelchair? Well, no, they don't have the experience, we got to get the actors, it's like, no, these people have been earning these parts over the years for climbing the ranks, so they can compete to be the face on the poster. That to me is how you, you change the system from the ground up. So I love the way that you put that.

Taylor Lewis: Definitely. And I think there are lots of people out there who have very legitimate and you know, and intelligent arguments about why it's, it's really unhelpful, and we should we should not have those people playing those high roles, even on the highest level, like why it's, it's not good to, to accept that kind of compromise. But I tend to be a little more pragmatic about it and say, Yeah, you know, yeah, those arguments are valid, it is it can be very offensive in a lot of ways sometimes, but if we're spend our time being offended, we're not gonna do anything else. So, you know, like, it's sure it sucks, and especially if it's someone who is depicting your disability, and they're doing it poorly, they can be really frustrating, you know, he was not gonna listen to you, if you're just Yellin, you know, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta work in the system. And it's, it's difficult, and it kind of sucks. But you also, you know, you can change things slowly by, by showing people that, you know, we contribute, we are part of it, we're creative, and intelligent and, and productive members of society. And a lot of people don't get to see that. So I think showing that first and taking every opportunity to show that, for me is important. So

Zack Arnold: I couldn't agree with that more. And to talk to us a little bit more about this idea of being pragmatic and fixing the system from within the system. The reason that you're brought to me through a connection of mine is through this thing that you call the group effort initiative, which is just a small part of the system that's in the system that's trying to change the system. So talk to me specifically more about this group, this initiative, and how it works, what it does, and for somebody that is looking for this kind of advocacy, how they get involved.

Taylor Lewis: Yeah, definitely a group effort initiative is an amazing organization, they were started by Ryan Reynolds, and Blake Lively, and I think are still funded by their efforts. And they are an organization that is dedicated to helping people from all different minority groups, whether that is disability, whether that's race, whether it's sexuality, or gender, you know, even to people who are starting their careers quite a bit later in life than traditional. So they're there. They want to get those voices into the industry. And they do that by one providing like career counseling, guidance. Lots of they do lots of events where they do panels with people, I just went to one at Paramount a couple weeks ago, that was really, you know, you had people from Paramount talking about their different jobs, and people could ask questions and, and introduce themselves. And it was, so they put those connections, but the other half of what they do, which I think is the most important half is they put people in actual jobs, which I think is one something that differentiates them from a lot of, you know, good intentioned foundations and organizations that they they take people and they say here work in this industry, which allows other people to see this person's working, they know what they're doing. I can hire them for other things. And it also gets people paid, which I think is a thing that we We forget that like, people need to live and you can't live in LA unless you're getting paid. So, you know, it's a huge benefit. So I really appreciate the work that they've done. And you know, the the amount that they've played my career paths so far has been huge. And I know a lot of other people who have gotten their first step from that. And that's really what it takes in this industry is having one advocate for you to give you that first step and so that you can show other people that you can work that you care that you're passionate that you're, you know, intelligent, you know, you're doing.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and that's something that I teach in my program all the time, regardless of disability is that ultimately, everyone has the same catch 22. There's a job that needs somebody with the experience to to do the job. But you need the experience to have the job, and you need the job to get the experience. It doesn't matter what craft what part of the industry, low level, medium level, high level, but somehow we all traverse this gap. And people get the work done, and they get the experience, disabled or otherwise. And the word that you use is so cute, you need an advocate, you need somebody that can stand there and talk to the powers that be tell the gatekeepers, you need to talk to Taylor Taylor's an awesome guy, he can provide value, there might be some accommodations unnecessary, there might be some skills that still need to be learned on the job. But ultimately, you surround yourself with advocates. That's how you can slowly climb that ladder and get people to notice you. Because we all face that same challenge climbing the ladder from the bottom to the top.

Taylor Lewis: Definitely. And I think one of the great things I've seen in this industry in general is that most people want to be advocates for other people, I think that they knew they get their start from someone else. So they want to help other people. But when it comes to disability, I think a lot of people just don't know how to how to help, or what to do. I think everyone I've met so far has been so encouraging and positive and like, oh, you know, like, like, what can we do? You know, they just don't know, they just don't know what I mean, because they don't have any interaction with it. And it's not common, because in the past, the industry hasn't really been the most friendly to people with disabilities, or, I mean, honestly, people who don't fit the the, you know, standard norm in general. So I think, you know, the more we educate people on what they can do to help, the more people will help because they genuinely want to.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I couldn't agree with that more. I talk about it in my networking program all the time, which sounds tangential to what we're talking about. But I always say that it's not the people don't want to help you. It's that they don't know how to help you. So it's not like everybody in the industry is conspiring and saying, We can let all the minority groups in, we can help people with disabilities or different races or sexualities. It's like, yeah, that'd be great. I don't know how, like, what I just I have to get by myself, right? Yeah, you talked about you need to get paid to live in LA, even if you're paid. It's our living in LA. Everybody's just in survival mode. I don't, I don't have time to help others. But then when they're in front of you, and you understand how to help them, it changes the game, like, Oh, I didn't realize that I could actually help them that way, that is actually something that I can do. And the more that we educate and talk about how we can help others and advocate for them, then it becomes easier. And again, that's it comes back to the same thing. That's how we change the system,

Taylor Lewis: You know, back to what you were saying about it being a cycle as well as that. Like, the more we get people in the industry, the more representation changes and gets better, the more people's perceptions of disability change, and get better the more people we can get into the industry. So it starts it has to start somewhere. But I think that once we build momentum, people will start, you know, when they see more people on screen with disabilities just living life, they'll understand, oh, well, I can hire people with disabilities I can I can bring them in. So hopefully it'll start feeding itself and become kind of a beneficial cycle.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I agree with that assertion and hope that the same thing happens as well. For anybody that is listening, we'll put the best resources that we can in the show notes if you want to learn more about the group effort initiative for for anybody that's just listening, whether driving, exercising, and they don't want to go to the shownotes What's the quickest way for them to find out about it?

Taylor Lewis: So group effort initiative is their website. I think it's I think it's this group effort initiative.com, I would have to double check on that. But if you just Google group effort initiative, you'll you'll be sure to find it. Another great one is the one in four coalition is there, they're focused more on like industry professionals, who already work in the industry who want to change systems in their own, you know, production. So they help people get Accessibility Coordinators, who's a person who will help you understand what needs someone your hiring might have, and be kind of a go between to kind of help you know what you can do to help make it as accommodating a place as possible without it, you know, kind of being awkward or not knowing what to do. So they're really great as a great one called, I think the inevitable inevitability foundation or inevitability project, I can't remember exactly what it is, but they're more focused on writing, and people in mid career writers, helping them get more work. But there's lots of resources out there. Lots of people who are trying to help, what they just need is interest, industry connections, you know, because the more the merrier that goes, and then we also need people to say, you know, hey, I'm here I'm here and I have skills, I'm ready to participate and help.

Zack Arnold: Well, I'm going to make sure that I can do what little part I can with my little tiny megaphone and microphone here to make sure that those resources are out there, because frankly, I wasn't aware of any of these. I've been talking about advocacy and helping those with disabilities for years. And when you mentioned these three, I'm like, never heard of any of them. So I'm going to look more into them to see if there's any way that I can get involved with just by sharing these resources for others. That's the first place that I can start is just having the links in the show notes. Most important question is what question haven't I asked you that allows you to talk about anything that you want to share today that we haven't mentioned yet?

Taylor Lewis: Is? That is? That is a good question. All right, I think, you know, we've covered quite a quite a lot. And I mean, I could talk for days about this. Right. We there's also, I think, you know, as far as as far as what makes good representation, that's a whole different conversation. And one that it's that's really, it's, there's a lot of, I guess, nuance to, to the history of disability representation. But you know, educating yourself on that, not you specifically, we know, people in general educate themselves on that is really helpful in understanding oh, what what do we do wrong? What do we do? Not so well, and what do we do? Right. But as far as a question that maybe helps me, you know, talk more about it is, you know, I think, I guess just to reiterate the the necessity to think creatively about these entry level positions, because that was, for me, at least, the largest roadblock, I think everyone in the industry is willing and ready to change. But we don't open up those first doors. And those first doors limit a lot of people. And it limits people before they even can start because they see that roadblock, and they don't even think that they can try.

Zack Arnold: What can I do for you specifically to help you get over whatever your current roadblock is. So you can keep climbing the ladder in post production and becoming a business ethically, for us specifically, this is this is no longer hypothetical. I want to know what I can specifically for you, because we got to do one person at a time.

Taylor Lewis: Well, right now, my my main goal is to join the union, I had, you know, I worked previously in post production in advertising back before the pandemic, I got a little burnt out and advertising during the pandemic, and then also did a year of being a PA. So all my wonderful days of industry experience to join the roster have expired. So I'm right now I'm looking for opportunities to get those days back or an apprenticeship because the really, the getting into the editor's union is a weird kind of tricky situation where you, you need industry experience days, but in order to close days has to be a non union job, but as to be like a job that the union cares about, or actually will will say is, is valuable. So like there's very, very narrow fields for that. Or you can get an apprenticeship, where you, you pair with a an editor they request from the union to hire you as a non union employee. And then after 30 days of being an apprentice, you then if the editor thinks that you're up to snuff, you can then you know, join, you can petition to join the union in the roster and get in the way, it's a lot shorter, and also a lot more direct, and honestly a lot more helpful because then you're not going off into like doing reality TV or something that's completely unrelated to feature or television editing. So to short story, short answer that is, if you know anyone who is looking for an apprentice, give me a call.

Zack Arnold: Alright, so the way that I'm breaking it down, I've kind of put on my coach hat here for a second, this is my favorite part, that the goal is we want to get you into the Union. And kind of the sub goal of that is one of two directions, either you're going to find something that's non union to get your hours or you can get an apprenticeship, do it for 30 days, that also gets you into the Union. So that's what you want to achieve. The next question I always ask is what's stopping you from achieving that?

Taylor Lewis: You know, I think for as far as the, the apprenticeship side, they've recently kind of changed the rules around it. A lot of people think that you have to be in the union to be an apprentice, which is not true anymore. So education on that as far as people being aware, I know that Netflix still kind of has policies in place that limit people who aren't already part of the Union roster to from being apprentices. So education on that front. Also, it just, you know, it's a matter of contacts, right? I mean, I've I've been emailing trailer production companies, you know, nonstop for the last like three weeks and had some great meetings has some almost tires, and then they pulled back because they didn't get a bed or something. And so I've you know, it's just a matter of playing the plan the numbers at that point, right.

Zack Arnold: Playing the numbers is one thing and other thing is playing the quality game instead of just the quantity game. And it sounds like if you're sending messages and you're getting responses in interviews and almost jobs, you're already doing it well. But if there were one area where you think that maybe your networking game are your strategy could use a little bit of improvement to get the likelihood even higher that we're going to get you into the Union i What would be your next dream job to move forwards. What do you think the gap might be?

Taylor Lewis: I think I think for me knowledge of opportunity, right? There's, it's pretty opaque as far as what jobs are actually available. Nothing. It's not like people really use LinkedIn for these kinds of jobs. And then also, I think, for me, like, like on a on a personal skills note, I think that there is a degree of like, following me not following up because I do follow up. But I guess, knowing knowing how to be persistent in a kind of annoying way, I think everyone struggles with that. I think it's always a balance back and forth. But boy, do I feel annoying sometimes.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I spend pretty much all day every day talking to my students about overcoming that single challenge. I did an hour's hot seat just this morning with somebody workshopping three different outreach messages. They're out there to three different people how to do the follow ups, and then they did those follow ups. And they got three meetings from it. And it's, it's a, it's a scary prospect of like, well, people are busy, and I don't want to bother them. And they don't want to be annoying. But you know, you got to be persistent, if you want to make things happen. So that's an area that I literally could talk about for hours. And if that's an area where you feel like yeah, I don't want to use the word does it sound like you're stuck? It sounds like you're doing a lot of things, right. But if that's an area where he wants to tweak hearing, or you want to do some workshopping to see if there's a way to improve it, I would totally offer up a conversation for you and Ida to workshop and tear down some of your, your networking materials to see if we can get you over the edge.

Taylor Lewis: Yeah, that'd be really helpful. Yeah, I think part of me too. So I always like to remind myself that my number one priority is maybe someone's 100 and 10th. Priority. So it's like this takes time.

Zack Arnold: Yep. For you, you spent hours days even weeks thinking about this one message goes into somebody's inbox, and you're just sitting and waiting for them. It's like dang, scan. Yay, I'll get to it later. And it's literally five seconds of their whole day. Right? And it's it's understanding that and playing the waiting game and playing the game of chess instead of checkers. That's the difference maker for sure. But yeah, if if that's an area that you want to tweak and improve upon a little, I'm more than happy to, to offer that service. See if we can get you over the hump, because it sounds like you're pretty close already. And you're doing the right things.

Taylor Lewis: Well, thank you. I hope so. Let's see, time will tell.

Zack Arnold: Well, on that note, speaking of networking, and building relationships, I'm going to make the assumption that you're very approachable and want to connect with people. But first, I want to make sure that that's okay. And secondly, it is how can those that are listening today connect with you?

Taylor Lewis: Yeah, sure. I'm, you know, I'm happy to talk with anyone about any of this easiest way probably is through Instagram, I guess, my my personal account is Taylor the short. And then I also have an account called Disability call sheet, where it's pretty much just the way that I keep track of great disabled actors that I see. So if I see someone who I think, Oh, I like their performance, I'll just do a little post. So if you're expecting like, you know, lots of content from that, sorry, you won't. But if you just want to reach out to me or you want to see some great disabled actors, you know, following disabled disability call sheet is a great place to start. And you can message me anytime on there.

Zack Arnold: All right. I love it at Taylor the short at the Disability call sheet. Yes, on that note, Taylor, I am so glad that we just kind of waited through the massive calendar, Tetris and we were able to finally make this work. This was an absolute pleasure and very happy to have you advocate and share your story today and hoping that this makes even just the littlest bit of difference for us and others that are trying to make their way in this crazy business.

Taylor Lewis: Thank you appreciate the opportunity to blather on.

Zack Arnold: Absolutely. Thank you for being here. Really appreciate it.

Taylor Lewis: Thank you.

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