“Do whatever you can to have the power to take a break or say no.”
– Michael Addis
Michael Addis is a man who wears many successful hats as an editor, writer, director, and showrunner. If you’ve ever enjoyed shows such as Impractical Jokers or projects with actors such as Jamie Kennedy or Tom Green, there is a chance you’ve come into contact with Michael’s work. Some of his recent credits include Assembly Required, You Kiddin’ Me, Famous Food Truck, and Chopped U.
In this Mastermind Q&A with my Optimizer coaching students Michael shared how he’s built a wide & varied career having so many different creatives roles that he calls himself (thanks to Tim Ferriss) a “specialized generalist,” which essentially means developing a massive toolbox of skills to be as involved as possible in every aspect of the creative process…but ultimately being great at one specific craft above all others.
In our conversation together, Michael and I dive into the specifics of the differences between working in scripted and unscripted television, how saying NO leads you to your dream career faster than saying YES can, and how focus is the number one skill that will lead you to success in the 21st century.
If you are someone who is looking to amplify your skill set in an effort to either change or dramatically advance your career, you’re going to love the sneak preview of our Mastermind Q&A.
Want to attend future Mastermind Q&A calls like this live with our guests?
→ Click here to learn more about joining the Optimizer coaching program
Michael Addis is an accomplished and in-demand comedy + reality showrunner/director/editor working in TV, film and the various platforms. He was the original showrunner and director for IMPRACTICAL JOKERS. He directed and/or produced on two Comedy Central shows: LEWIS BLACK’S ROOT OF ALL EVIL, THE SHOWBIZ SHOW w/DAVID SPADE, as well as HELL DATE, EXTREME MAKEOVER: HOME EDITION, THE NEW TOM GREEN SHOW and REALITY HELL. He also wrote for THE MAN SHOW.
Most recently, Michael has directed/edited a series of digital content spots for DISCOVER CARD/SOUL PANCAKE and SOYLENT. He also showran/directed two series’ for Food Network (CHOPPED U and FAMOUS FOOD TRUCK w/HARLEY MORENSTEIN) as well as pilots for Nickelodeon, TBS, Bravo, Travel Channel and Fandango. And he Co-EP’d the series, YOU KIDDIN’ ME for Facebook Watch with Kim Kardashian West.
His debut feature comedy, POOR WHITE TRASH (starring Jaime Pressly and Sean Young) was an underground hit that ended up making three times its budget. His follow up feature, HECKLER, is a documentary featuring 140 big comedians, sports legends, actors and filmmakers being interviewed about critics.
With his own company, he produced/directed the one-hour stand-up special, JAMIE KENNEDY: UNWASHED, which he sold to Comedy Central to excellent ratings.
He has also directed several national commercials, including work for Toshiba, Doritos, Mozilla and Audi.
Facebook, Connect on Twitter, Click to visit our guest’s website
Zack Arnold: and today I've got a special treat for you, which is a sneak preview of a recent Mastermind Q&A conversation that I had with the members of my Optimizer Coaching and Mentorship program, in which we spoke with fellow community member Michael Addis. Michael is a man who wears many successful hats as an editor or writer or director, and even a showrunner. Now if you've ever enjoyed shows such as Impractical Jokers or projects that have actors such as Jamie Kennedy or Tom Green, there's a pretty good chance you've come into contact with Michael's work. Some of his recent credits include Assembly Required, Are You Kiddin' Me, Famous Food Truck and Chopped U. In this Mastermind Q&A With my Optimizer coaching students, Michael shares how he has built a wide and varied career having so many different creative roles, and that he calls himself thanks partly because of Tim Ferriss a quote unquote, specialized generalist, which essentially means that he has developed a massive toolbox of skills to be as involved as possible in every aspect of the creative process. But ultimately, he is great at one specific craft above all others. In this conversation, Michael, and I dive into the specifics of the differences between working in scripted and unscripted television. How saying no leads to your dream career faster than often saying yes might and how focus is the number one skill that will lead to your success in the 21st century. Now, if you are somebody who's looking to amplify your skill sets in an effort to either change or dramatically advance your creative career, you're going to love this sneak preview of our Mastermind Q&A. And if you're thinking after listening, that you would really love to attend one of these future calls, and be able to ask questions and start your own conversations, I invite you to visit zackarnold.com/optimizer to learn more about how to enroll in the Optimizer program. Alright, without further ado, the sneak preview of my Mastermind Q&A conversation with specialized generalist editor writer and showrunner Michael Addis, and my Optimizer Coaching and Mentorship community. I am here today with Michael Addis who's a showrunner, director and editor who specializes in comedic social experiment and hidden camera prank shows you want to talk about getting specific that my friend has a specific genre. He is the director showrunner of Impractical Jokers, he directed the feature Doc Heckler with Jamie Kennedy, and he has directed and edited dozens of other unscripted commercials, TV shows and features. And he is a member of both the DGA and the Editors Guild, and today's general topic of conversation of which we can veer in different directions if we'd like. But in general, we are going to be discussing the topic today on our Optimizer Mastermind Q&A how to leverage your editing skills for any format or genre. Michael, sir, you're a very, very busy guy. And the fact that you're taking this time to share your expertise and your advice and your ideas with the Optimizer community means the world to me. So thank you, sir, for being here.
Michael Addis: Thank you for having me. And I'm looking forward to one on one discussions with people and questions because I'm sure I'm gonna learn a lot too.
Zack Arnold: Well, you've been a longtime member of this community who provided a lot of value both with your questions and with your answers to questions. And a lot of people just they don't see how just asking a question can provide value. But it really is able to start discussions and help people see their own blind spots as well and take some vulnerability to get on a zoom call and say, Hi, everybody, I don't know how to do this thing, right? And you've been no stranger to doing that over and over and over. And I appreciate that. And now you get to be on the flip side, where you get to be the center of attention.
Michael Addis: Okay, well, I hope I can provide value,
Zack Arnold: I have no doubt you will be able to. So on that note, the easiest place to get started just to give people a little bit more background and set the stage. Obviously in the introduction I kind of gave here's the two sentence pitch about Michael's background. But give us a little bit deeper version about how you came to be somebody that you consider a specialized generalist, which is a term that kinda sort of comes from Tim Ferriss, and you're editing in your show running into all these different genres. Just kind of, you know, paint the picture of what this path look like to get where you are now?
Michael Addis: Well, I would say that I've always wanted to be a filmmaker. I've always been a filmmaker. And a friend of mine wrote a book recently where he says editors are filmmakers. And you just have to be thinking in terms of, Am I creating some kind of genre of entertainment that's going to affect people that's going to excite people. And so I think I just kind of started getting lucky with unscripted comedy. I gravitated towards comedy but, and I've written 19 feature screenplays, I've made a feature called poor white trash, but that just wasn't the direction of my the specific direction of my career. It seemed to be when I did unscripted documentaries or improv related comedies, those did better. So a lot of times you your career sort of goes in that direction of a what you enjoy and be what you seem to have some success with. Right
Zack Arnold: So you didn't within the first few minutes of our conversation, use the word lucky to do. You didn't consider yourself lucky. You know how I feel about the L word. And by the way?
Michael Addis: Well, you and I may not agree on that.
Zack Arnold: But I was gonna say we might not agree on that we might not. Even though nobody here has heard this conversation yet. I talked about this at length with the person I just interviewed yesterday and the concept of luck. So I'm not saying that my views are not that malleable. We we came to a point where we agreed to disagree with different verbiage. But explain to me in your best argument, why you feel the way you got in your path was because of luck. Okay.
Michael Addis: So Nassim Taleb discusses how we have possibly 50% luck in our life and 50% skill, right? Like, there are certain aspects that we cannot control. And the things that we cannot control, we can call luck. So I I'm not a very metaphysical guy. But I do believe that half of my success has been like very hard work and focus and doing the work doing the things I need to do to succeed. And then there have been times where I'm like, wow, I, how did I happen to get the meeting to run Impractical Jokers? Like, there's a little bit of luck there, right? So I don't know if it's 50%. But that, but I wouldn't think that Nassim Taleb was an idiot. So
Zack Arnold: yeah, of course, I would totally agree with that. And I'm certainly not saying that I'm right. And everybody else is wrong. I just have my own viewpoint. But the funny thing is the response that I got from this person, and again, everybody will be able to hear this, eventually, by the time this mastermind q&a is out this, this interview will probably already exist. And it's with Steven Sashen, who is the CEO of the company, zero shoes. And we talked about the idea of luck. And his response was, I believe that 90% of all success is luck. And the other 10% is also luck. That was his response. So there's a very, very huge sense of humor,
Michael Addis: sit around and hopefully get lucky
Zack Arnold: he is. So essentially, he takes no motor kind of control for anything, including Well, I got an idea in my head. But is it really my own idea? And did I create it? Or did it just pop up. So it was lucky that that idea popped up in my head. So that's the extreme version? Wow, I'm almost as extreme on the other end. And what I'd said to him was that I am lucky that I was born white, and male in the United States of America, that was lucky. Man, it could have been a lot worse for me, especially given present times, which we're not going to get into, because that's a whole other ball of wax. That was lucky. There are certain circumstances that for which, like you said, are totally not within our control at all. If things happen to go your way or not go your way. That's good luck and bad luck. I totally agree with that. So I'm not saying luck doesn't exist. However, what I feel is that a lot of people ascribe luck to people's successes when they don't really dig in and understand. It was more about choices, and having more control over the outcome than we might think. So it's not me saying luck doesn't exist, right? I just feel that the percentage of which we think success happens because of luck is less, if you really dig in, it has to do a lot with choices, and being prepared for circumstances that came up that were beyond your control,
Michael Addis: right. But when something is beyond your control, you don't have to worry about it. You ignore it. So every day I wake up, and I think how can I make the best life I can with the non luck part, right? And I'm doing it and and I'm constantly learning things. I'm starting a show Tuesday. And on that show, I start it's I got episode one. I'm 101. And I know the format of the show. And so now I'm just going to try to make the best show, knowing the format and studying format, which I learned from you.
Zack Arnold: So all of that having been said, what I'd like to know a little bit more about is it sounds like if, if I were to look at your resume, let's take the titles off for a second editor, showrunner. etc. If I were to just look at the list of shows, I think it would be relatively easy for me to say, Oh, you got pigeonholed, and improvisational comedy, but what it sounds like is that was very conscious and very much a choice. Would you say that's accurate?
Michael Addis: It is very much a choice because as I started working on it, I started saying this is a lot of fun. I really enjoy this. And to me, it's like I remember I had a meeting with MTV and they said what do you like most about unscripted comedy. And I said, the writing? It's, it's it's a lot of right. It's like you're constantly writing and creating. And the fun thing, I think for people on this call who may have an inkling of an interest in this is the writers are writing the director's writing, the camera operators are writing and the editor especially is writing. So you're getting hundreds of hours of footage and you're constantly writing in the Bay. And that's, that's fun. You know, but
Zack Arnold: let me ask you a question that maybe maybe the the ones that are listening now might not have because I think we have a lot of pretty seasoned vets here. But if I were to step backwards for a second with a little bit more outside perspective, I'm really confused right now, because Didn't you just say the best thing about unscripted is writing and it seems to me unscripted means is no script and it's just reality, isn't it? So I don't get how writing could be your favorite part.
Michael Addis: Exactly. That's the absurdity of life right there. When you work, and I know a lot of people in your program talk about going to scripted, or they get excited about scripted shows. And to me, it's like, that's a script, you have a script that's been approved. What we do is we create bullet points and outlines. And we create these things that aren't technically scripts, but is an enormous amount of writing and creating on the page. And then we got in the field and do it or we amend it in, in post but but but yeah, there's a lot of it's, it's kind of like when comedians talk about writing, sometimes the writing on stage, or when people are writing music, sometimes they're just jamming. So the word writing is very, it's a very nebulous expression. But to me, it's like the creation of premises and ideas is something you do from start to finish in unscripted. And I love it. And the best part about it, is you don't have to deal with as many network meddling notes before you shoot your there is no script. So you're kind of you don't have to have every word approved by a really good coffee getter.
Zack Arnold: Something tells me though, that it probably doesn't reduce the amount of notes after you're an editorial though just don't get. Don't you still save? I don't get it. It's reality. How can you get notes?
Michael Addis: I know. And then the notes are oftentimes, like, this is how we want the reality changed.
Zack Arnold: Hold on a second, you're changing reality is reality. They do that television. What? Absolutely. Mind blown, no idea. I just assume what I was looking at was, you know, that's exactly the way that it was. And there's no subjectivity introduced.
Michael Addis: But there are bits of reality that cannot be changed and posed, and they still want those change. So yeah, this is the biggest part of our job, or my job, at least is wrapping your head around. Notes.
Zack Arnold: So one conversation that you and I had a long time ago, you may or may not remember, it was just one of those random five minute asides during an office hours is we talked about working and unscripted versus scripted. And your I would say, maybe not maybe that one of the few. But there are certainly less people statistically, that are interested in working unscripted and scripted. And the vast majority of people you talk to that are in editorial, they probably working on script that just because the numbers are such that there are larger teams, more people more show, so mathematically, more people working on scripted than scripted, the vast majority want to work in scripted. And you were just like, No, why would I want to do that. So talk to me about what it is about unscripted, there's so much more interesting than scripted, and why it's not even remotely a possibility for you?
Michael Addis: Well, let me go back to that conversation. Because I do remember it and I said something, punk rock and snarky, and you're like, Whoa, because I said, basically, scripted is like paint by numbers. So
Zack Arnold: we were gonna get to that point in a second, I was gonna warm up,
Michael Addis: you do remember that. Okay. So to me scripted is, to some extent, and I know you don't do this exactly in your work. But you take the script, and you basically get the best takes, and you try to line them up. And you and you try to create something that aligns very, very closely to a script. To me, I'm trying to just align with something that works. And it may be very different from the script. I did a documentary called a heckler. And it was comedic. And I went in and I would do an interview, for example, and I would ask the person a bunch of questions. But at the end of the day, it's it's at least a half hour interview. And it's a two or three minute segment. So what's the crux of the segment? In this case, for the example I want to give its, I was interviewing the head of a website called Mi annoying.com. They had an algorithm or something where they were saying this is these are the annoying points, or this is the points of somebody and why they're annoying. And it was on Howard Stern, it was a lot of fun. But my angle in the edit bay was because I asked him a few questions in this regard was, if everybody has some level of annoying, what's annoying about Martin Luther King, Jr, or Jesus or Gandhi, and he had an answer, and it was really funny, you know, what was annoying about? About I think, what was it like about Jesus was he was he always seemed like he was acting a little smarter than everybody else. And that can be and Gandhi was, was, you know, he goes, he's a vegetarian. Those people are always annoying. So you know, it was so that became the bit and then I cut that and then so I was creating it in the bay and it was just, that was the segment worked funny.
Zack Arnold: So I don't want to veer off too far into a tangent, just to make sure that I You know, put my name in the ring again, vehemently disagree with the idea that scripted is paint by numbers,
Michael Addis: bars, argument hassle,
Zack Arnold: I guess. And I guess the very quick response to that would be, how much scripted Have you actually done to come to that conclusion?
Michael Addis: Well, I wrote a 19 screenplays and made one one of them we made. So I had my own script. And I edited that as a as an example, but also my first editing job ever. Weirdly enough, well, no, actually, my first editing job was I was doing a lot of industrials. But then my first professional editing job was editing a feature this low budget feature with Corbin Bernsen. And Hillary Swank. Yeah. And which was fun, because I remember I ran into her on a bus in Sundance, and went up to her and said, I just had been staring at you for the last three months. And she's like, what? I go, I was editor of your
Zack Arnold: Oh wait. Maybe I should give you context first before you call the police. Right. Right. I think planners have made that mistake.
Michael Addis: But yeah, so I have added I have edited, scripted, I've never edited script. No, I have edited scripted TV. But I think what excites me about unscripted is that it's it's there's it's dangerous. There's there's a danger to going out and doing it. And, and there's a danger of Will it work in the edit bay? To me, it's like, I think like with your show, you can't get up too much in regard to it's great writers. It's great actors. It's I mean, what you do as an editor is brilliant, for sure. But to me, it's like sometimes you get footage and you're like, how do I make anything about this? It's kind of
Zack Arnold: that's the part of coming at it with not a, I would say not a plethora of scripted experience. Yeah, that's exactly the experience of a scripted editor is, I would say seven times out of 10. How in the hell am I going to make this work at all? That's kind of our jobs. The what I would say the differences, we have very different problems in scripted than the problems you have an unscripted. Right, right, right. I already know who the characters are in the scene. I don't have 27 cameras on a living room, right? I'm just looking at everybody Big Brother style, well, who's the character of this scene? That's why we're getting into this idea of where you have to do a lot of writing. Well, let's figure out who are the characters? Who do we focus on? Who do we cut out? And granted, the writers and scripts that are probably doing a fair amount of that? Yep. So there's more nuance, but it's still the same thing. So for me, it's not Who are the characters in the scene, it's, well, there's clearly four characters in the scene sitting around a table, and I have an equal amount of coverage with all of them. Now, it's my job via nuance, to be able to paint the picture that emotionally this song, the scene belongs to this specific person. And here, here's how that that works in the bigger picture, and what I've seen over and over again, and I want to make it very clear that I'm not pigeon holing or making assumptions about people in general. But I have seen with specific people, and I could name names. And of course I won't, we're very specific instances where people come from unscripted at a very high level that are very good at it. And they couldn't cut a scripted scene to save their life. Because it's a totally different skill set. So when people say, Well, I'm an editor and a storyteller, and I should be able to do anything. I say, that's absolutely true. But it's not automatically assumed that you can do it today. So for somebody who say, true, you know, your trailer editor, you can do long form. Well, that's, that's not true. But it might be true right now, because again, I've I and again, not going to name names. But Oscar nominated editor, if I said the name, everybody would know who it is top of the list. I was brought in to consult with this person years ago, because they were asked to cut like a five minutes. It was like a real for cancer or something like that. They didn't have any budget to go to a trailer house. And they brought me in because I have trailer experience. And the picture editor cut it, it was unusable. I mean, it was like an unwatchable trailer. And but you look at the name, and you're like, how could they not make an amazing title? Because it's a totally different medium and type of storytelling, doesn't mean we're not capable of it. But they are different skill sets. Yeah,
Michael Addis: I think I was I was trying to learn. I was taking an avid class recently, because I wanted to just up my game, and we had to cut a scripted scene. And I was like, This is harder than I remember. Like, it was harder than paint by numbers. Right. I think you're right. I stand corrected.
No, yes, very, very hard. But
Zack Arnold: The reason I bring all this up, I don't want to belabor it and you know, turn it into a lengthy debate, because I'm sure we both have, you know, great points on both sides. But it's more about this idea of what is a specialized generalist and doesn't mean I can just do everything doesn't mean I can just do a few different things. And I do believe you can be a great unscripted editor and a scripted editor and a writer and you can be a children's author or what you've written like a great book to read your kid Is it better nights? You've been a showrunner, I think you can be great at all of those things, I just don't think that being great at one automatically means you're going to be great at another without a lot of concerted effort to develop that skill. So let's talk a little bit more about how you can be an author of books, and a writer of unscripted scenes, and an editor of unscripted scenes and editor of scripted scenes and a showrunner that's managing teams and location managers and all this other stuff. How do you blend all these together? And how do you get good at all of them?
Michael Addis: It takes a long time. But I think that the problems always are, how do I get my next job? And how do I get the next job. And so I think it really comes down to creating a big enough resume. And now I have a resume on both sides, you know, that I'm able to get certain jobs. The job. last job I got was editing on a comedic reality show. And then this job that I'm starting on Tuesday is editing a comedic reality show. So it is, it is a groove where I could stay pretty consistently employed to be totally transparent, like sometimes show running. It's, it's not as easy to stay consistently employed. And that's true with a lot of show runners because any show has one show runner, and seven or eight editors. So the numbers are just better for editing. So
Zack Arnold: yeah, I know that that was very, very helpful. And I want to dig into it a little bit deeper. One thing I want to clarify, especially for those that spend a lot of time in the scripted world is in the unscripted world. It's a pretty common path to go from editor to showrunner. Not everybody does it. But it's not an uncommon path and a lot of show runners in unscripted have experienced editing. In scripted, I have never met a showrunner that even knows how to turn on an avid. Right? It's a totally different worlds because the path for showrunner and scripted is writing. So talk a little bit more about how you're able to bounce back and forth. Because to anybody that's only lived in scripted. It's like, how can you be an editor and a showrunner that doesn't even make sense,
Michael Addis: right? Well, it's, again, it goes back to do you know, if you accumulate enough jobs, and you could build a resume that looks good on its own, in each each position, then you should be okay. And that's and that's what I try to do is just like Like, I literally can hand you my shoulder on a resume. And it looks like a complete resume with with not too many gaps. But when in editing, I can do the same thing. So that's sort of the way I've designed it. But also, I found that show running. And I don't know if people are interested in this part of it. But you know, show running, when you're just hired as a showrunner, you're really at the behest of a lot of people that may have a different idea of the show, because sometimes you're brought in at the 11th hour or something to me lately, I've been focusing more on creating shows, and then I'm automatically the showrunner. So I have a show right now that we've partnered with Forbes magazine on and we're going to be going out with that. But that's uh, that's that's the direction I'm taking is like, I'm happy to do my editing jobs. And then if I want to show run, I just have to create the show. So that's a lot of writing. So yeah, I work a lot. I mean, I'm not doing anything on Fourth of July. work.
Zack Arnold: But from my understanding, at least from my recollection, no family, correct. Like no kids to worry about Fourth of July and all that stuff.
Michael Addis: Well, I have kids, I just they're they're a bit older. So
Zack Arnold: like you you don't have I don't have to deal with them. Right. Like you're not you're not you're not doing Elementary School pool parties anymore. Nope. Right. So the that phase is over, and you have more time to be able to focus on the things that you want to do. Yeah, that is a true blessing. Sure. So talking about this idea of the two resumes, which by the way, is an aside shameless plug have seen both of them because we workshop both of them during a multitude of hot seats during office hours. But it doesn't really matter which one we direct this towards editing or show running. If I were to look at those resumes, or I would look at IMDb Pro, or I would do a little bit of internet sleuthing. I know almost every job that you have said yes to how many notes are on that resume that I don't see.
Michael Addis: Well, there's, there's stuff that I said yes to and then took off the resume, because it really wasn't cuz it doesn't help me get other jobs. Like if you do a great pilot. I mean, I remember I did this amazing pilot for Nickelodeon. And they took me out to dinner afterwards. And I was the hero because I made this amazing pilot. And it didn't go to series for whatever reason. And so that doesn't show up on my resume. But so some of my best work isn't on my resume. What I say no to not a ton, I mean lately more. But I actually here this is another example of I have more questions than answers and that is I have seen first episodes of shows that I thought I would really like to not do this show. And that I'm trying to figure out out how to get out of because really, that is the crux of when you have meetings and everything seems cool. And it seems like a great idea, a great show. And then you watch the, a little bit of what they've done. And it just you just know, it's not going to really be as successful. That's something I'm trying to figure out how to get out of back out of so
Zack Arnold: And to clarify, you mean shows that you're on the team already,
Michael Addis: if I if I am editing on a show, sometimes I'll see the first episode or work in progress. And you can tell a lot, if you've been in the business, while you can tell a lot from a work in progress. I mean, when you jumped on your current show, it's like you already watched a season of it. And it was clear it was going to be in your mind a bigger success, and with your help a bigger success. But I've seen stuff where it's like no, I there's nothing I could do to help this. Even after if I saw dirty pilot, which is a pilot that's like 10 or 12 minutes. It's not a full pilot. I could say, I don't want to edit this, but I'd have to see something first. That's a tough one.
Zack Arnold: It's a tough one, knowing you've already committed to the team and you're already adding another episode. You may not it's a tough one to say no to if I haven't been hired.
Michael Addis: Yeah. And that's and that's to me the definitive sort of way you say yes or no to something is you get a taste for what they've done. Not in the past. But how does it How does it How was it looked currently?
Zack Arnold: All right. So we're going to workshop this for a couple of minutes. Okay. I'm curious for anybody else that's here, you can either raise your digital hand, you can turn on your camera and raise your hand or you can let me know in the chat. How many people here have worked on a show that you committed to not really knowing what it was? And once you got a sense of what the show was, you're like, use How did I end up here? And how do I get out of it? Is anybody else had this experience? I'm curious how common this is? All the time, Rachel. Yeah, and see, I'm seeing an all the time I've seen another hand. Let me put it to the other group here for a second because I realized I'm in speaker view, one more time, we'll actually everybody's got their camera off, because they're all being shy. But it sounds like why we I've at least seen a hand and and all the time and Sam doesn't realize it. But in her her little avatar looks like she's raising her hand. So I'm going to take that one. I would say that I haven't been in the the unscripted world, I have a feeling this is something that's pretty common in the unscripted world, because you have such large teams and things are going so fast. And you don't really see what it is. I would guess it's a little bit less common in scripted, but I could be wrong. I'm totally making a judgment. I'm trying to say that you could Well, you do have a script, so you have a better sense. And this is where I do think it's easier to judge something on paper even before it's shot. But I have I've been on at least one if not more projects that I won't name where I read the script. And I said, Oh my god, like this is going to be amazing. And then knowing the words were exactly the same on the page, the story was exactly the same. I saw what they shot and it's like this is unwatchable, right. I don't want to have anything to do with this. So there's only so much that happens on the page. And I believe that it all starts on the page. And if you don't have an amazing script with compelling characters, and the right motivations and a great plot and everything else, it doesn't matter how well you shoot it, or how well you edit it, you have to have a great story first, but just having it be great on paper doesn't mean it can be executed correctly. But I haven't had this more than maybe once or twice and never, it's never happened to me to the point. And once I want to end the show. But now the more I think about am I know what show this is, it's the same experience as you were after seeing the pilot, which I wasn't working on. I was like, oh boy, I'm gonna be doing four episodes of this. So I guess I can kind of relate to it. So in this instance, let's use whatever this example is, because I'm guessing other people listening have experienced it. What are the fears of you saying, You know what, I've decided I'm gonna bow out and I'm gonna go a different direction.
Michael Addis: Oh, that's, that's very clear to me. First of all, first season shows in my world are very difficult. There's a lot of editing and re editing and figuring it out. Second season shows it's much, much easier. You have not just one boilerplate, which is the pilot, but you have a full season of them. And so you really know exactly what the show is. And you just rinse and repeat. Right? So that's. So if you're on a first season show, and you already know it's going to be a lot, a lot of work, and it's not going to be fun. Because you may never get there and the audience may never be into it. I mean, I've been on shows where it's just like we did the whole season. It was like they didn't air it. They pulled the plug. And so you you get to the point I think in life in the business where you go, this isn't going to work. People aren't going to like this. It's going to have a whole real
Zack Arnold: I can definitely say that that's it's very similar and scripted, which again may not seem like it at first glance. But the first season of scripted shows is absolute chaos. Every single first season show I've ever been on I always ask the same question. Why are we trying to read invent the wheel, right? People have been making television for decades, that doesn't have to be this heart. The problem is you have so many individuals that have to learn how to become a team. It's the difference between, we've been an athletic team, like a football team for the last 40 years, you're bringing people in and out, but there's still a culture. And there's still a way they run things in your, you know, bringing in the right individuals versus you have an expansion team, where every single person is coming from another organization with other beliefs about how we do things and workflows, and the first season is just a show. So I had I've made it a point in my career for years. And now it's I mean, it's very clear, I just don't work on first season shows anymore, because I went through three or four of them, and they just about destroyed me. Yeah. And that's why when I saw Cobra Kai, and I found it right after the beginning of season one, I'm like, this is the this is the one because I can already see they can execute. It's an amazing show. It's perfect for me, but I don't have to reinvent the wheel and figure out what the show is. So that's why I came in at the beginning of season two. Is there a part of me that wishes I could say just to be able to say it? Yeah, I worked on the whole show, even season one because it always just bugs me a little bit. When people say, Oh, you work on Cobra Kai. That's awesome. Season was my favorite. Yeah, work on that one. But thanks. But that's just ego. I'm, there's a big part of me, that's actually kind of glad I wasn't a part of season one. Because I heard about how chaotic it was and how little work life balance there was. And it was a real challenge. A lot of that was worked out Season One, the rest of it was worked out season two. Now it's a well oiled machine with a formula. So whatever happens in unscripted, I can assure you it's very similar in the scripted world.
Michael Addis: Yeah, see, I'm not again, I want to ask more questions and answer things. But to me, it's like, what I find interesting is that the the magic sauce and a lot of shows is the acting is the is the personality of the people, the actors. And so when you see these people, and you're like, That's it, that guy's a star, or that guy is read, you know, is acting those words in such a way that everybody's gonna want to see it. That's the, that's the part of filmmaking that I still find magical. I'm literally magic, like, I watch a person and I go, he's exploding off the screen, he or she and she and just super appealing, and then you cut to another person, you're like, they're not, they're not very good. And that that's to me, as far as editing, that's the hardest part is when you see the magic and you see the nonmagical person and you have to cut to that person, or you have to incorporate that person into a scene. I literally just on the last show I worked on, I did a lot of off screen stuff with this guy who just every everything they said was felt like both. So like I would have like some reason not to cut to them. And their audio is also tough, but I would make that work. But if you saw them on the screen, it would suck the air out of the screen, it would it wouldn't work,
Zack Arnold: which again, I would argue requires a lot of nuance, even in scripted to be able to manage all of that. But
Michael Addis: Yeah, I mean, I am dealing with unprofessional actors, and you're dealing with all professionals. But
Zack Arnold: professional, I would use the term professional loosely in a lot of cases, you'd be very surprised. But again, that's another another tangent that we could go down that I don't want to go down too much. But there's one other area going back to what we talked about before I want to dig in to a little bit more before we go to the audience here. Yeah. And that was when I'd asked you the question, how many nodes are on your resume that we don't see. And you said there weren't a lot. And my my hypothesis has been and I've talked to literally hundreds of people about their career paths. And by enlarge almost universally, everybody that is working where they want to be that is fulfilled by their work and got there because they had just as many or even more nose than yeses. And that doesn't seem to be the case with you. So I'm curious, how is it that you ended up having a resume full of things that for the most part you really wanted to be doing without having to say no that much?
Michael Addis: Well, I don't know. I mean, I think that like to me, like when I hear you talk about somebody who has a lot of opportunities to say no, I just think there's almost no way for them not to have a better career. And I think I've struggled a bit and I think it's been there's been times when I've spent a good five or six months on a show that I wish I had said no to so. I don't know, I think that like had I met Zack Arnold, you know, 10 years ago, I probably would have crafted a life or I could say no more. So I don't want to say anything more to that question other than it's imperative that you are able to say no, even though I have gotten lucky or my career is an awful, I think it'd be my life and career would be way way better if I was able to say no, and I'm not saying that as like, I wish I knew now what I knew then I'm saying you know what I mean? Because like sometimes you take a show and you you would have said yes to it with no matter what I'm saying like, if you really look back and say, I absolutely at the time, knew it wasn't going to be the best move, but I did it because I have kids or I need to pay the bills. If there's one piece of advice I could give any editor or anybody in the business is money, money management, like just put away half of what you make, and and do whatever you can. So you have the power to take a break or say no, absolutely.
Zack Arnold: Here, here, this is the point at which I hit the button where we get an amen from the course. The only reason this coaching program even exists the reason there are self guided courses, the reason there's a podcast, etc, etc, etc, is because of my money management. Yeah, because I was in a place years ago, where I said, I've got these job offers, I don't really want to do them, do I need the money? No, I would like to take the next four months and work on a documentary or take the next four months and learn WordPress. So I can build a really crappy website called fitness and post, or I want to be able to take a year off. And I want to be able to build a coaching program, whatever it is fill in the blank for the person that's here today or listening, whatever that thing might be whether it's developing or honing skills are reading, you know, the Lord of the Rings, all the whole series, whatever it might be the only way you ever have the freedom to say no as a financially, you afford yourself the room to do it. And like you I have essentially built a lifestyle such that whatever I'm making doing my core job, which used to be editing, now, my core source of income is actually this program in this community. But before that, it was obviously editing for two decades, my lifestyle must be such that I can take half of my paycheck and put it away, which means that for every week that I work, I get two weeks of freedom. Right, right. So that freedom is what's allowed me to be able to say no to the wrong things. And if I were to look at my resume of nose, there are some on there that like people would just be like, are you insane? Like, no, because it wasn't the right fit for me, for some people, for many, even myself 10 years ago, life changing career changing opportunities that I didn't even take the interview, but either knew the people or the lifestyle or whatever it was just wasn't in alignment. Now I'm in a position where I can very comfortably very politely decline. But a lot of that is because of money management. So I wholeheartedly agree with that. And that's a whole other wing of the Optimize yourself program that we will be building out eventually, if I could hit the download button. That would be great. But it's such a core part of being able to build a fulfilling career path is saying no, and having the freedom to do that financially, which not everybody, you know, is afforded the ability to do because of kids or whatever. And like I've said a million times,
Michael Addis: it's more of a mindset, right?
Zack Arnold: It's more of a mindset. Yes. But there are also a lot of very specific practical circumstances that I think are legitimate obstacles beyond just what you just need the mindset. The earlier the earlier you figure it out, the better. If we were to say to somebody that's been working in the business for 25 years with three kids, well, you know, just figure it out. It's a money management mindset. There's so entrenched in deep into mortgages and car payments and preschool like, you can't math your way out of that overnight. But you can build it if you know that those things are important to 25 instead of 45.
Michael Addis: Yes. And just to put a fine point on it. I think we're kind of born with this knowledge that they're cool things to own. My son who's 14, this is like, Hey, Dad, I What's your favorite car? Like? What's your dream car? What do you want? And that question to me was like something I would have answered far differently 20 years ago. And I said, it's, I want a car that gets me from point A to point B and is somewhat comfortable and reliable. But if you but if you showed me a picture of a Ferrari, and I said, Ooh, that's cool. I would also know that the cost of that Ferrari is I have to say yes to a lot more jobs and a lot of things I don't really want to do. And so the cost of that Ferrari is far far too high. And that's including the actual price tag of 100,000. But you are whatever it is, but it's it's just way way too high. So if there's I don't have to talk any more about it but I but I think it's so critical that people follow your advice on that.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, so and I'll just put like I'll put a fine point on nine point I feel yes a finer point so you're the writer you're writing I love a finer point on your fine point when it when it does come to something that's very material in nature like a car or whatever and especially in Hollywood people are always showing off their stuff and like oh man check you know, check out this Mazar it I got all I see is a giant car payment. That's it. Yeah. Like I'm glad you're enjoying that. I see a gigantic car payment and me not sleeping at night. Not worth it. Not worth it. Right. So I can totally agree with that. So I have one more question that I'm hoping will kind of wrap up everything. We're talking about it. In the meantime, I want to warm everybody Yup, that's here in the group with us. This is now the time to start putting some ideas in the chat about what you'd like to talk about next gen who wants to bring up a question or two. But we've been using this term specialized generalist. And as you had alluded to that comes from the world of Tim Ferriss. Yeah. How do you not what you remember of what he's written? How do you define what a specialized generalist is?
Michael Addis: Well, let's, let's, let's really interesting, let's look at it from the point of view of the people who are going to hire you. They're looking at your resume and saying, Is it specific enough to this to this genre, like if it's comedy, we do know that if a person's only done scripted comedy, that they're specific, but they won't work for unscripted comedy, but if it's both a mixture, then I can say, well, this person has a good level of experience in comedy, unscripted and scripted. So you're a generalist in that you are a creative person who works in, in this area of comedy, like let's say, if you're up for a job working with Tim and Eric, there, you do have any experience in the world of absurdist comedy? And do you know how to use the habit? And do you know how to how to operate these machines and work efficiently? Effectively? Sorry. So I think it just comes down to other people's point of view of what you can do, obviously, you have your point of view. But if you're trying to sell somebody, how do you sell them on, I have this specific skill set for your show. And also, I'm general enough that I bring a lot to the table. So that and that. And that's what's interesting about that. And what Tim Ferriss talks about is that specialization that I think is for insects was his expression that he uses, but like that that's changing, that's evolving, people are looking at people with multiple skill sets, and seeing the value in that. And that didn't used to be the case. So going back to Tim and Eric, a lot of the people that work and I've studied this a lot to be able to work with them, they have some musical background, and they add it and they know how to use multiple apps like Photoshop and After Effects, but they also do some writing. So they so so a lot of people and you could really find the facts here do like this umbrella that includes this world, so you have to kind of find that each time. But there's nothing wrong with being a generalist enough to say I do multiple things like I'm a composer and an editor, which maybe 15 to 30 years ago would be like, ah, that's that's weird, but not anymore. Does that make sense? Do you agree?
Zack Arnold: It does make sense. What I want to add on to that is the idea that I think that we in some ways have skewed so far towards generalization where it's comical in certain respects. I'm sure you've seen the job listings, where it says seeking editor must know how to compose, do sound design graphics, do all of our visual effects, compositing, etc. It's we pay 1250 An hour and you're like, Are you kidding me? It's not hyperbole, those things literally exist. And that's where being a generalist has gone too far. But I agree that there's a world where if you're a specialist, and the only thing you can do is you in I think if you were to go back 2030 years, specifically for editors and scripted, the only thing I do as a picture editor is I edit dialogue. Somebody else does all my sound effects, somebody else cuts in all my music, the only thing that I do is picture and dialogue, because that's the technology before we went digital, you only had four tracks maybe only had two tracks. So that's what you did for a living. But I think nowadays you come at it with that attitude. Like if I were to say, Well, according to the editors guild guidelines, and the way that the position of picture editor is defined, when I hand you the first editor's cut of this episode of television, it will only be a string out of all of the dialogue. How long do you think I'm going to have my job? They expect me to be a generalist in the sense that I can do picture I can do sound beds, I can do some basic visual effects and compositing, I can definitely do music and score if at least if temp, right. So that to me is being a generalist, but then the specialization part is what is the one thing that I am really good at? Why are you hiring me? Because there are all kinds of editors that have all the same skills that I do. But there are very few that can do this one thing. What is that? And that's what I feel you sell yourself for? Right? I'm good at editing 10 music and sound and whatever in my assistant. Yeah, very helpful in coordinating all that. But there are certain things about my craft, that are things that I bring to it that I can't even explain where people say it's just this thing that you have. Yeah, I couldn't tell you how to do it. It's the same as being a writer. You just have this thing. That to me is the specialist part of the generalist.
Michael Addis: Yeah, I mean, and exactly. And I think that if you look at you Zack being somebody who understands physicality, who understands that tidying, obviously, who understands organization who could use Trello better than most people on the planet? That's really exciting for people. And so I would say that, to me the perfect way to be in 2022 and probably beyond is are you good at money management? Are you good at learning new apps and new techniques? And possibly above anything else? Are you able to focus? Yeah, there's that
Zack Arnold: it's the meta skill the 21st century totally blatantly stealing that from Cal Newport. There is no question. Yeah, no question that in the world we have right now focus is the superpower that is going to be the difference between success and failure in the 21st century, no question, which is why it's now a skill that I teach
This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared by Debby Germino and published by Glen McNiel.
The original music in the opening and closing of the show is courtesy of Joe Trapanese (who is quite possibly one of the most talented composers on the face of the planet).
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