Episode Highlights

• How Lesley succeeded as both an athlete and a creative despite the fact everyone told her she had to choose one
• How Lesley’s athletic mindset fueled her creativity (and visa versa)
• How a broken shoulder didn’t stop Lesley from winning a triathlon
• Why you should stop focusing on excellence (and what you should be focused on instead)
• The science behind breaking down big goals into small chunks – and how to use that technique in both sports and beyond
• The importance of having confidence in who you really are and creating a process that works for you
• The importance of setting up rewards for yourself on your path to reach your goals
• Why working through your weaknesses by focusing on your strengths is a combination for success
• How to navigate through failure and find your reason to keep going – no matter how many setbacks you’ve encountered
• The right way to “fake it til you make it” – and the science that backs it up

Useful Links

• All Quiet on the Western Front
• How a world champion triathlete earned an Oscar nomination
• The Brave Athlete: Calm the F*ck Down and Rise to the Occasion
• Atomic Habits by James Clear
• The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg
• Mindset: The New Psychology of Success by Carol S. Dweck, Ph. D.
• Braveheart Coaching

About Guest

Lesley Paterson is a world champion professional triathlete and endurance coach. Growing up in Scotland, Lesley was the only girl who played rugby on an all-boys, national champion team. At age 14, Lesley started competing in running and triathlon events and went on to become a national champion in cross country, and an international triathlete. Lesley is now a 5-time world champion in off-road triathlon (XTERRA and ITU), an Ironman triathlon champion, and professional mountain biker. She is co-founder of Braveheart Coaching, a triathlon coaching company based in San Diego, CA.

At the same time as being a sports billy, Lesley also studied her undergraduate in Drama at Loughborough University and then her Masters degree in Theater and Film at SDSU in California. After acting in 15 independent film and realizing that this was not her forte, she then went on to produce her first feature film – a low $10,000 mockumentary shot in 27 locations across 7 days with over 100 extras. Having always loved storytelling, she turned to writing when meeting her then creative partner Ian Stokell. Together they embarked on the journey of optioning the rights to All Quiet on the Western Front, adapting the material and getting it off the ground. 16 years and $200,000 of her own money later, the film premiered at TIFF in 2022. Lesley now writes and produces exclusively with her husband Simon Marshall who she realized was her partner in crime when he helped with the script on All Quiet. Now they have 8 different projects in various forms of development and are excited to take the biz by storm.

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Transcript

Lesley Paterson: If you don't have structure as part of your routine, if you don't have both hosts as part of your routine in a world that is so subject to so undeterminable then you're you're gonna explode

Zack Arnold: I'm here today with Lesley Paterson, who is a professional triathlete, a triathlon coach. She's also a screenwriter and a film producer. You have won multiple awards, gold medals in triathlon at the world championship level, including you winning the XTERRA world championships in 2011, 2012, and 2018. You're also the co-author of the book, The Brave Athlete: Calm the F Down and Rise to the Occasion. And in a huge surprise twist, which we're going to talk a lot more about. You also recently won the BAFTA Award for Best Adapted Screenplay for All Quiet on the Western Front, you are an Oscar nominee in the same category. And if there's any justice in the world, by the time somebody hears this, you will call yourself an Oscar winner, Lesley Paterson, it would be so much fun to talk to you. But I've already run out of time just discussing all the things you've accomplished and all your accolades. So it was great to have you on the show. Best of luck. Kidding, Lesley. Amazing, amazing honor to have you on my show today.

Lesley Paterson: Oh, my gosh, I'm so excited to dig into all of this say all of this stuff with you, Zack, and it's an honor to be on your podcast.

Zack Arnold: Well, and I just realized there, there might be something wrong with my podcast prep. And I might need to to re record this because I actually, I think I must have two separate guests on the show, because there's no way that one person accomplish all this. So let me re record this. Welcome today. Lesley Paterson and Patty McGinty.

Lesley Paterson: That's right, good old Patty. So Patty is the reason I'm here.

Zack Arnold: Well, we're going to talk all about that today. And in order to kind of tee this off, I want to tell the story of how you ended up on the show, both from just my perspective. And just so you have a little bit of perspective, on your end about how all this came together. And this is going to feed into some of the mindsets we talked about. I am what I call a recovering perfectionist, as a very type a very ambitious, very driven person, as I've heard you talk about that often comes with perfectionism, OCD, you know, crazy attention and focus to detail. When I find somebody that I'm interested in having on the podcast, I do a deep dive, I do all kinds of research. I like to have like a few weeks or a month in advance, I want to read their book, I want to watch all their videos. I mean, it's really at the point where it's a very inefficient process. But it leads to great interviews, I have done none of that. And I'm going to tell you why. I knew nothing about you and your story as of four days ago, randomly scrolling through Facebook for five minutes. And there is this post going around that went viral about how there was this woman that had run triathlons, to earn the money to option a project for which you just just won a BAFTA Award. And it was talking about how you were both an athlete and a creative. Seven minutes later, you got an email, and I said, Oh, for the love of all that is holy, you have to be on my show. 60 minutes later, you said, sounds great, what time and here you are. So this is such an amazing and cool experience that I believe is such a kindred spirit as I am blending the athletes mindset with a creative mindset. Because I believe that you need both of those to truly succeed.

Lesley Paterson: It's 100% True. And to be honest, you know, I've been an athlete, and a creative my whole life. You know, I like to say to people that it's almost like, I've gotten half of my dad, and half of my mom almost exactly, because my dad, he you know, he's like your typical athlete, right, you know, science oriented numbers guy, you know, goal driven, my mom was the airy fairy artist. And so I pretty much got this unique kind of combination. And to be honest, I've done both of them all the way through my life. And all the way through my life, I've been told that they are incompatible, and that I should give up one to pursue the other if I want to be successful. So to those folks out here that said that, F you

Zack Arnold: Yes, and you're you're actually well known for your use of the F word, hence why it's in your book, I have watched several past interviews with you with the limited amount of prep time I've given myself. And you have definitely lived up to that moniker. And I've just decided that today, we're just going to have the explicit label instead of the clean label because I want both of us to be as authentic as possible. And I don't want you to have to censor yourself at all. The This again is one of those areas that I think is so interesting because I too have kind of both equal sides of very much the athletes mindset and the creative mindset and I find They're constantly at odds with each other in my brain. And what I always tell people when they ask about my kids, is I say that I'm a split personality, and each of my kids got half. So it's kind of the inverse of view, where my son 100%, creative 0%, athlete, my daughter, 100%, athlete 0%, creative. So it's interesting how you were brought up where you had the influence of both, and you blended the two together and have blended it together quite well, I might add,

Lesley Paterson: it's really curious to see how one helps the other in fact, and, you know, it took me a lot of my life to understand how it worked. And the I came about this, because, you know, when I started off in my athletic career, I had big aspirations to go to the Olympics, and I was in an Olympic program that was a system, it was a system in the UK that was, had one specific way of doing things and one specific way of treating their athletes. And I didn't really fit into that. It was very much a numbers driven, data driven, and I'm an athlete at heart. So while I appreciate, you know, data, and I understand it, and I work towards certain elements of it, and really driven by, you know, the bigger heart, kind of your sense of scores. And so I didn't fit in that box, and so gave up I thought it was a big, fat failure. And through arts, I rediscovered myself, and by rediscovering myself, find my way back to sport as a different athletes, where I could utilize who I was as a person, and my physical entities and my knowledge of sport and really excel through that. But then equally in the creative world, especially when it comes down to both script writing and filmmaking. If you don't have structure as part of your routine, if you don't have goalposts as part of your routine in a world that is so subject, if so undeterminable, then you're gonna explode. So, you know, yeah, I mean, there's, we could talk for hours about how I've been to Greece is my creativity to sport and my sport, noon, you know, into my creativity.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, there was a quote that I saw that essentially cemented in my mind, oh, this person has to be on the show. And the quote was, I truly am the athlete that I am, because I'm an artist, and the artist that I am, because I'm an athlete, I was like, done, gotta be on the show, whatever it takes. Luckily, you made it easy. Just know that I would have stalked you incessantly and endlessly because I'm very persistent. And luckily, you responded with my first email. But it was reading that quote, where I said, this is somebody that I want to bring into my universe in the universe of my audience, because I spent years talking about how to blend what you can learn as an athlete, the athletes mindset, the psychology of an athlete, and use that specifically in the world of creative work, not just from the perspective of it's great to burn calories and have more endorphins and have more oxygen in your blood going to your brain so you can generate better ideas. That's kind of where it started. But then it really became about blending these two psychologies and mindsets, everything that I read about the athletic mindset, and like, you could totally apply that to being a writer, an editor, or a composer or a director, it's all the same thing. And to give an example of that, if you'll allow me 30 seconds, what I want to do is I want to read through the table of contents of your book, which is specifically geared towards athletes. And I've modified it just to remove the word athlete and tell me how this wouldn't perfectly work for somebody that wants to be a successful screenwriter, a peek inside the three pound lump of crazy, which would be our brains, tackling, tackling the flawed thinking around your identity. I can imagine that some creatives would need that building confidence and self belief the secret of doing the power and peril of comparison. Dealing with body image. I mean, you sure you didn't write a book for people in Hollywood, how to respond to setbacks, big and small, the incessant need to do more. That's my life story. How to cross the fear barrier resisting the urge to quit learning to embrace the suck. I mean, come on, you literally can remove the word athlete from your current book and release an entirely new book with all the same concepts could you not

Lesley Paterson: one. And in fact, we've done a lot my husband, who's a psychologist, and now my writing partner. And we've done a lot of talks for big companies for we've worked with directors, we've worked with actors. It really crosses the gamut. We did not realize how important this message was across every industry, every person even you know, when you're getting down to relationships or mother fatherhood, you know, all of those things. It's applicable to it's zero I think, to how option worlds what it Regardless of what that world is,

Zack Arnold: I want to dive way deeper into the psychology of being an athlete transferring it to be a creative. There's so many great ideas in here. But first, I think we got to back up a little bit because hey, if we're going to be great storytellers, there's a really good part of the story that we haven't gotten to yet. We know the end or hopefully, we know the end, which is recent BAFTA winner and fingers crossed by the time this release is Oscar winner. But we got to go back to the beginning of this specific storyline, which is you can fill in the blanks for me, but give or take 15 plus years ago, you proclaim to the world I've accomplished what I want to win sport. Now I'm going to win an Oscar. What in the world? Like who? Who do you think you are saying that? Like, come on? That's crazy. It goes back to the beginning of this story in your mind.

Lesley Paterson: Yeah. So I mean, we had say, oh, gosh, where do I start? So I was studying, I did my undergraduate and graduate and theater and film, at the same time as being an athlete. And I wanted to be in film, I didn't know how I just knew I love the medium. I love storytelling. I got into acting and quickly realized I was not very good, but that's okay. So if you want to Google my name, and then some terrible horror films, and all sorts that, please don't. But suffice it to say that that got me into the world of screenwriting, and producing some actually an executive producer and all quiet as well. And that's when we came across all quiet the Western Front the novel, and we decided to try and auction the material there with my writing partner, the tiny and, and we were successful. Lo and behold, nobody had the rights, which was shocking. And again, this is kind of the lessons I've learned along the way in my life, if you've got risks, why not ask why not take that step? Give it a go, what's the worst that can happen? Okay, so someone says, no big deal, you know, no harm, no foul. So I think a lot of people see lofty ambitions and big dreams like that, and think they have the right to go after it. And that's a huge lesson I learned in sport, and that first world title to me. And then I did have the right it taught me I had the right, coming to California being a little Scottish Lassie from a small tone. And, you know, it gave me that there's something about the American Dream that is untouchable. It does exist. It's a mindset. And and the more people I was around that had that kind of mindset, I adopted it as well. So yeah, I think, you know, with that first world title, I just, I won that title. I was very, very first time, I'd been in the sport a long time, it was a huge, huge dream of mine, obviously, to win it. But I came in traffic on it swimming, biking, and running, I came out of the water and poor position, I got on the bike. And for the first time in my athletic career, I had a flat tire. And I really truly believed that this was my time to win it. And that flat tire was a decision tree for me, it was due to the shooter would have kudos was me it was never meant to be, or do I just commit at the moment to fixing it, getting on with doing it every single second to the end, because the worst thing in any career is to throw in the towel. But if you know you've committed 100% effort attitude to whatever it is you're doing, you're not going to be disappointed because you couldn't have done any more. And the consequence, all the people that had passed me on the bike with a flat tire, I fixed it, I started to pass them back, I got into the run to make up six and a half minute deficit on a tanky run. And I asked the leader with half a mile to go on the run. And that was my role titles. So it was shocking, amazing. And an absolute nail in the coffin of this. This works, you commit every moment to the s this works. took that into filmmaking. That probably is why that that statement, because I truly believe that if I just worked harder than anyone else and committed longer than anyone else, then it would have

Zack Arnold: The two keywords that you mentioned in there that again, I want to make sure we cover in a lot more detail a little bit later our effort and attitude because I know that's a big part of the ideas and mindsets that you teach in your book and all of your coaching practice. But there's a couple of key points in this story. And frankly, the reason that I even gravitated towards it in the first place is I would assume that especially people that are in the entertainment industry that weren't familiar with you In the athletic world, they can look you up on IMDb Pro, and they can scratch their heads and say, Huh, that's kind of crazy. Well, she's an overnight success. And there's a big giant gap between oh, here's a book that I like to option. And now I've got a screenplay and a successful successful Netflix movie, and I'm winning awards. So tell me all about your overnight success.

Lesley Paterson: Yes. So, you know, obviously competing full time, it was difficult to do too much and film while I was, you know, all over the world. But I saw this project is being a really wonderful door opening and launching of a new career when I retired from sport. Less, or did I know it would be that long? And when we optioned material, of course, we thought, Oh, hey, listen, it's only going to take a couple years, and we'll be golden. But we went on this crazy journey, you know, all sorts of directors attached, you know, actors attached. Finance on finance of the whole landscape of film changed across that time. And so it certainly wasn't an overnight success. And the amount of risk that we have in this project, in order to maintain the option was several $100,000 that my husband and I begged, borrowed steeled raced to win together kind of money. And yeah, so it's anything. But however, because I was pursuing another career, I couldn't really do too much else on the site. So no, this is it, you know, we've opened the door, and we're doing it full time. So it's a very exciting time for me.

Zack Arnold: Well in speaking of this idea of clearly not being an overnight success, and having to go through so many obstacles, and build the resilience, and we'll talk more about all the failures that you most likely endured. But the one piece of the story that I think is kind of going around the world literally right now. And it was the the key component of the Facebook post that made me say, you have to be on my podcast yesterday, he talked to me about one specific race and your need to win that race, so you could maintain your option.

Lesley Paterson: Totally man. So it's 2015. And I was heading out to race in Costa Rica. And I knew with my level of fitness that I could win this race I knew given the start list. And given how strong I was that this was pretty much a guarantee, and the auction was coming up. And we were like, Okay, great. This is going to cover that. We're good for another year. Awesome. So I get there. And of course, the day before these kinds of races, because the kind of racing I do is off road. So it's mountain biking, trail running. And we pre ride the course so we can understand the terrain just like a Formula One driver, check out the track. It's the same with me. So the day before the race, I fell, fell off the bike and broke my shoulder. No, I did not know at the time or broken my shoulder. All I knew is I could not lift my arm up at all. I couldn't get my brow off. I couldn't get my hair bobble in. And I was devastated on multiple levels like oh my god, we're gonna lose it auction. Oh, my God, I can't race. You know, this is awful. So my husband being a sports psychologist, we quickly pivoted and said, Okay, how can I get through this race? How can I even just give it a shot? So I don't feel like a total failure. So let's break it down. Okay, can you write? Well, I can put my hand up. I can use my right arm mainly to steer if I come to anything technical or get off and walk. Yes, I'll lose time, but maybe I can make it up on the flat running. No big deal that up and down motion. I'll take a few painkillers. I'll be fine. swimmin No fucking way. So I could no lift that arm up at all. And my husband's like, you know, lazy, you're really good at the one arm drill. You know, you do a lot of drills and swimming. You could get through this. And I'm like, he's right. I'm just gonna give it a go. So I got on the water. This was like the night before the race. So there's a couple of strokes and I'm like, fuck it. I'm gonna give this a go. Because what's the worst that can happen? I have to get out. I have to get picked up by a canoe. I don't finish or I come out. We don't well, frickin work. So I give it a go. And I get in the water and I get through the waves. It was in the ocean. And I head out on a mile swim. And I managed to only only lose 12 minutes. But let me tell you, it was the most exhausting one mile swim of my life. But the funny thing was, is my husband's on the beach watching and there's all these spectators. And they're like, oh my God, they give the they give. They give out pro cards to the worst people these days because of course, you know, so I call my water and I get on the bike and I'm like, I've got a lot of work to do. And so I start picking them off one by one. Of course there's some technical sections that loosen time again, but I come off the bike in second position. And I'm like game on cars running as my strongest. So I run my way to first and win the race. So it was it was just a crazy experience. And again, just like one of those lessons, break it down into small chunks and figure out be dynamic. Think outside the box about how you might be able to achieve something, and you just never know at least give it a shot. And that's what happens. So I won the race, and we managed to maintain the option. And here I am.

Zack Arnold: So in your mind, going through the worst of the worst, not only before, when you realize I'm going to have to run a completely different race than I expected, but when you're actually in it, like you said, that was the worst mile you ever swim. It's very, very easy to just say, I tried, I'm done. I give up. I gave it my best. But there's always something that, like you said, allows you to get into that gear and say game on. And I'm curious in that specific instance. Was it just the athlete in you that said, I can't quit? I want to win the race, or is it? I've won races before? It's no big deal. But no matter what it takes, I have to get the option or is it simply I refuse to give up? Like what what? What was the combination of thoughts in your mind that kept you going no matter what.

Lesley Paterson: There's a beauty in the suffering. And I think it's being Scottish. It's that Calvinistic sensibility that I grew up with, it's the underdog fight, put me behind, and I'm going to do better, I'm going to fight harder, because I'm facing those obstacles. And I think because I've dealt with so much adversity, and throughout my careers, and in my life with things like chronic Lyme disease, a lot of injuries, a lot of pain, depression, anxiety, you know, housebound bed bound, there's an immense amount of gratitude, of being in the moment of just trying to achieve something small. And it doesn't matter what that small thing is, it might be a line on the page of a script, it might be managing to get someone on the phone, you never thought you could. And for me, it was oh my god, I can swim a mile one arm, that's kind of cool. And, and I think I've just got a very positive outlook on life, I find a way to gain something positive out of every single step, regardless of what that is. And, you know, this is how I've kind of utilize those skills, both in the arts and in sport, because I've had many a day where I've started in the morning at 4am. And I've got a seven hour training day, I'm struggling with chronic Lyme disease, I'm feeling sick, I'm injured, I'm in a lot of pain. And I know I just have to get those seven hours. And how do you find something positive from that? You know, you find a way. Similarly, with many of the projects that have done, this one included, how many noes you have to get through to get the Yes. And, and ultimately, I think it boils down to focusing on the process, focusing on excellence of your craft. And excellence doesn't need to be a time, or the perfect page of a script, or the a list actor that's attached or the $30 million that you want for your film. It might simply be an attitude. I managed to survive, that should be fun, call those crappy notes on the script and still find something positive out of it. That for me was a mastery of the moment. So it's about piling up those moments. And if you can do that enough, that's where you'll get your outcome. Yeah, and that exists on every level. So I think I've just kind of done that my whole life and I'm not sure how I find that skill. But even if you look back right at the beginning, and when I was younger, I played rugby. And I was the only girl in a team of about 250 boys. And I dealt with a lot of adversity in that I didn't have a changing room everyone else did. I had a little toilet. It was cold, it was freezing. I couldn't even undo my boots because it recovered and frost a washed in the bathroom. Everyone else had a hot shower. All the boys laughed at me and pointed at me. And there was there was a beauty and facing you that adversity and having resilience. And what's been amazing is having a husband as a psychologist, you start to then dig into the neuroscience of how that actually changes your brain. And you know, we call it neuroplasticity how your your brain changes and morphs, given the stimulus that it's got. And there's a part of your brain called the anterior cingulate cortex, which sits right behind the eyes. And that actually grows and gets denser as we deal with adversity. So, from a very young age, I think I realized that it's almost like a muscle in your body. And I have worked out that muscle. So now it's like, I can cope with a lot and find a way to keep pushing through. And that's helped me in both careers.

Zack Arnold: There's so many things that I can easily break down into 3-4-5 90 minute episodes, and that one phrase alone, there's, there's three things that I want to dig into a little bit deeper that we've already passed over. And I want to make sure we go much, much deeper into the the mindset of an athlete and how you can apply it to becoming the applied to the mindset of being a creative, or a mental athlete, the first of which is the idea of breaking down a big goal into smaller pieces. The second of which is the idea of embracing the process and the craft, and the third of which is really embracing resilience as something that's going to allow you to become stronger and improve the quality of your future self, even if your present self isn't really appreciative of it. So I want to go to the first one, which is this idea of breaking goals down into the tiniest steps. Because I feel like number one, this is just an absolutely necessary life skill and mindset that nobody learns in school, there are very few people that teach it. Shameless plug, I teach this skill, but breaking things down into the smallest component parts, where I first learned this and by the way, as a caveat, I have not competed in sports even remotely the level you have. But my obsession for about a decade has been obstacle course racing, Spartan Races, and now American Ninja Warrior. And I came into a mostly with a creative mindset, thinking, Oh, my God, I have to run this 15 mile race, and it's going to be 4000 foot elevation gain. And there's 30 obstacles, and I could never do it. And then it was well, what if you just ran to the next telephone pole? What if you just get to the top of the hill? What if you just get under this one barbed wire? This constant resetting, like you said, built this resilience muscle in my brain. So when I would get to work on Monday morning in Hollywood, it was like, Oh, well, dealing with a file that doesn't export or, you know, like you said, a nasty notes call. It's like, it's nothing. I was sprayed in the face of the firehose this weekend. Right. So I really felt that that neuroplasticity taking over. So talk to me a little bit more first about this developing this skill, especially if you're in the creative world, and one that's filled with rejection of breaking down a insurmountable goal into the tiniest benchmarks.

Lesley Paterson: Sure. So there's a couple of things here. What we knew from in terms of neuro chemistry that goes on, is anytime that we achieve something, we get a dopamine hit, and that dopamine hit propels itself to motivation to complete next one. So there's actual chemistry in our brain that loves breaking things up into small pieces. So that's why it works at the brain level. And, and so I think I learned a skill, actually, from my parents, as you know, many wonderful parents are many wonderful sort of childhoods will tell you that if you have the support and love and teachings of your parents, you can really achieve greatness. And my dad used to take me out. So when I was no longer allowed to play rugby, he knew he needed to kind of take me out and burn off all this extra energy that I'm sure you can see bouncing off the screen. And he would take me out over the mirrors and hills of Scotland, gorgeous mountains, beautiful scenery, but I would go out with him and a bunch of his buddies, you know, all middle aged men. And I was always at the back. So it's just a weird thing. I was only kind of 12 years old at the time and these runs, it'd be 1012 miles and the door and all the rest of it. And he was like, Don't tell your mother, you know, you We didn't go that far. You know, we really stopped it. So and so's house for a cup of tea. Okay, Dad, okay. But we'd go up these mountains. And I'd always be at the back. And one of my dad's best friends is a guy called Reggie. You know, they all had these nicknames. It was great. It was a great social as a community. And that was another piece of it a community that really taught me how to do things, and ratchet in the back. He would say to her look at this big mind and think how the hell am I going to get out this moment? I'm exhausted. My heart rates off. It's really tiring. I'm just small. Everyone's ahead. It's the Lesley baby steps. He said, I don't ever want to see you walking. I don't care how small those steps are. You're gonna run the entire way up. And you're going to do baby steps. I want you to clock in. And that was at the age of 12. Right. So what does that tell you about how to achieve something I was Looking at these mountains thinking there's no way and he said, baby steps, small little baby steps. So I think there's these teachings that occur in your life. And if you really absorb them, and you start to implement them in what you're doing, it really, really helps. So I had the teachings are both my mom and dad to help me. So So yeah, and of it, I mean, sport is an obvious one to break down things. But I think when it comes to script writing, specifically, that is so overwhelming when you are either adapting a material or whether you're starting from scratch with a spec script, or, God forbid a TV show, which is even more overwhelming. And you're starting with a kernel of an idea, how do you build it out to a full script, you can't possibly think about that endpoint, because ultimately getting to the endpoint of something that might be short, even although it's continuing to be changed, even when you're in production. It's, it's not a ladder, it's a cargo net, there's many different ways to get there. And you can't always predict it either. So you kind of have to go with the flow of where it's going to be. And so I think what you do is you have to create your own system of how to break things down. So certainly, when it comes to script writing, for me, research is the first piece I love to read around, whether it's the world or the character, or the concept, and I go down all these different little rabbit holes, then I'll read scripts all you know, in a similar genre, then I'll watch films that might inspire me. So I have all of these different sort of things in this system and this protocol that I have. And that's the first step to kind of generating maybe it's an outline, or the characters or the pieces like that. And it's trying to trying to really focus on not not thinking to the end and being in the moment. And that's a skill that you have to practice. And my sport has helped me do that. Because when you're in a race, often you go through many phases where you want to give up where you feel exhausted, where there's no way you think you can hang on, and you have to think moment to moment. Especially in things like running races or and bike races where you're on somebody I grew up in, you know, racing my bikes and a group of men in Scotland that were builders and plumbers and hardy guys. And if you got dropped off the back of this peloton, a bit like intuitive France. That's it, man, you were lost, you didn't know where you were going. So you had to bloody do it. You had to break it up into a moment to moment. Oh, my God, just like you said earlier, can I make it to the next lamppost? Can I make it to the next right turn? So I've practiced it my whole life. And I think that's why now I can look at any situation and see, okay, how do I strategically break this down and manage it emotionally, physically, practically. And that, I think is led to my success? No, and I think we'll continue on.

Zack Arnold: If we're talking specifically now about the second idea, the first one breaking things down into small pieces, you alluded to this idea of also being present with the process and being present with a craft. One of the chapters in your book that again, like I said, you remove the word athlete, and it's applicable to both sides, developing Jedi concentration skills. As a writer, this is a real challenge. For creatives. It's one thing to say, Yeah, I'm going to embrace the process. And I'm just going to do this five pages a day, or how many words a day. But then the world is so filled with distractions that you can't even sit down to go from one lamppost to the next lamppost. So what are strategies that you've taken from the world of being an athlete, to being able to consistently develop the habit of being a writer and embracing the craft, because if you don't actually write the script, you don't have a script that you can sell, they can then be rejected 4000 times, they can then finally get produced that you can finally win your awards for it, you got to actually finish it. So what have you taken from the athletic training world to becoming a consistent writer?

Lesley Paterson: Stop trying to be someone else and be yourself. So you have to be mega self reflective on how you work, what you enjoy. What situation makes you effective. And that's what happened to me as an athlete, I was being forced on a trajectory that did not work for me. It was not who I was as a person. So having the confidence to know who you are and being really introspective about that, and then creating the process that works for you. So, for example, in sport worse, I love to be out and trails I love to be out in mountainous, one of my worst things is to be on the flats, I struggle physically with that I'm a very small person being on the flats on bike, I'm at a disadvantage, however, I realize it's important. So what we would do is we'd go through my training schedule, and we'd, we'd kind of mark it up, we'd give it a value, a numerical number, which session isn't an emotional 10 out of 10, in terms of what it takes, so to me, and a physical 10 out of 10, and we'd mark it up like that. So we'd have an emotional response to a session and a physical, what is it taking out of me physically. And we would create a rubric based on that making sure that I'm never stressing one too much more than another. So for me, something that is very emotionally easy for me personally, is to climb mountain down the mountain a million times, I love it. I mean, it makes me so joyful, I can push myself a lot harder. What is emotionally attend for me is to be out in the desert with no one around on a flat, endless mile road trying to work hard. So I would know that that's an emotional 10. However, I understand that I need to stress myself, sometimes it's good to put yourself in uncomfortable positions, but knowing when to do those kinds of sessions. So that's how I would create a training program with my coaches based around those elements. And similarly, with screenwriting, and with kind of filmmaking in general, knowing what works for you. So if you are not creative in the morning, but you're creative in the evening, how do you set your lifestyle up to be the best that you can be stop trying to do it in the morning, if that's not going to work? I'm a morning person that does work for me. You know, if you like to be around sort of an environment where there's a lot of people busy bodying around, maybe it's a coffee shop, find the ideal location? Is there a piece of music is there something that you watch to get into that headspace? When I am working out as an athlete, and I do this when I coach athletes, I'll break their workouts down and give them a stimulus, each section of the workout. So for instance, at the beginning of a bike workout, see it's a stationary one where they're able to watch them, I see okay, for the first 20 minutes of your warmup, you're gonna watch some kind of motivational video for you, whatever that might be. Maybe it's watching Rocky, maybe it's not, maybe it's watching an inspirational story. And then during the workout, you're gonna get your playlist together, that is perfect, new songs that get you excited and stimulated to really work through the hard pain cave, then you get your reward at the end of that, which is your Netflix series that you're addicted to. And that's your little reward along with your little energy bar. Right. So you break it up is the same with screenwriting, or it's the same with any other process that you struggle to do. Set it up such that you have the rewards, you have the right stimulus to get the best out of yourself, you know, maybe that's a writing group or a writing team as well, to help through those tough parts. So again, it's understanding how you work who you are facing your fears, your weaknesses, working through them, but at the same time, empowering yourself to your strengths. So you've got to have a combination of both to get a success.

Zack Arnold: Something tells me that you and I have bookshelves that look very, very similar.

Lesley Paterson: Mindset?

Zack Arnold: You probably have these two books, for those that are listening. So we've got Atomic Habits got The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg, you're talking about this idea of routines, dopamine triggers, rewards. And I love how you've applied it not only to the athletes mindset, but to the writer's mindset. And the thing that I talk about with my students all the time, and I work with writers, I work with directors, I work with a lot of editors, I always tell them that time management is energy management, and what you're talking about as well. I could write for three hours a day, but the value of three hours in the morning is very different than the value of three hours in the evening, depending on your personality. So being able to manage your energy is one of those key things that again, I've also learned as an athlete, and a ninja and an OCR racer, and I've applied to the creative process, but so many people just try and hunker down and power through. And they're trying to write at the worst time of day and they can't figure out why is my face in Instagram. Just because your brain is saying this is not the time to be doing this. I am seeking a distraction. And that distraction is taking me away from the displeasure of doing something that I'm either emotionally drained or I'm literally scared to do so I've always said the time management is energy management and that sounds like you very much approach your your writing process and your craft in a similar fashion.

Lesley Paterson: Oh 100% And in And the trouble is, is today we're faced with constant comparison. You know, so and so who won an Oscar? Well, they do it that way. Oh my gosh, if they do it that way, I must be doing it wrong. And so yeah, you can appreciate that you can learn from other people's ways. Of course, that's what you want to do you want constantly be learning, but you also have to straight, you know, stay true to yourself, and what best suits you and that is evolving as well that's ever changing, depending on your world and your relationships and what's going on. But that ultimately is about being self reflective. And I think too many people, they're too busy projecting who the thing they are really want to be impression management, without actually truly digging deep and saying, You know what, this is who I am. worse and all.

Zack Arnold: Here's what is so ironic about that phrase. Right now you're talking about this idea of being true to yourself. But as I alluded to, at the beginning of the show, we actually have not one but two guests with us today. The other which is Patty McGinty, a what is this joke that I keep using described to me who Patty McGinty is?

Lesley Paterson: So good, oh, Patty is my alter ego. And we actually talked about this in our book, and we have a little Alter Ego kit. So you know, there's a lot of reasons why having an alter ego is actually a wonderful tool in your little bag to have. From a neuroscience perspective, we know that as you adopt a certain behavior, we get, you know, different chemicals that rush into our brain, whether that's dopamine, whether that's hormones, the power pose was the classic one. But having an Alter Ego means creating a character of the person that we want to be, that has those behaviors has those attributes we feel we don't have as a person. So for me, as a younger athlete, I really struggled. I had a lot of dough to, you know, low confidence, the way that I walk the way that I talked, if I didn't, I didn't think I deserve to be there. So we started to create this alter ego for me, and especially because I came from an acting background creating a character made sense. I started to watch videos of specifically Conor McGregor, because I love MMA fighting. I'm a secret MMA fighter. So one of these days I'm gonna get in the ring. And I've actually written a script based around kind of a fighter, and cuz I secretly would love to play that. But anyways, so my alter ego is based on Conor McGregor because Conor McGregor, whether you like him or hate him, he has this unbridled and again, this is probably his alter ego, this unbridled confidence, no matter what he gets up, and he keeps going, he does not give a shit what anyone else thinks about him. And he walks like, he owns the fucking world. And so I started to walk around, shoulders back, I had this kind of posture. And I noticed that, that he had this sort of stare in his eyes, where he would never lose contact, and it was like piercing daggers. And I'm like, You know what, I'm going to start to adopt this when I'm training, you know, just to kind of keep focus, or I'm going to clench my fists, or I'm going to start to do these things. And I built it out to the point where, you know, I would watch videos of, I would start to, you know, kind of walk around like him, I'd wear things like him. And lo and behold, during race, it was massively effective. I was in this mindset, because it didn't have to be me, it was someone else. Now, the caveat to that is I was spending hours a day training is Paddy. Of course, that's not that pleasant for my husband when I come home. So I'd have to have like this transition. So for me, it would always be the stairs that led up into our apartment. And it was three flights of stairs. And for every flight of stairs, I would lose a bit of paddy so that I was in Leslie when I came home. And but yes, I mean, there's a lot of big performers that use this. I mean, Beyonce uses Sasha Fierce, and there's a bunch of other top performers, too, but it's just a wonderful way to not have to kind of deal with all that baggage of who we think we are and go through years of therapy if you just want a quick fix. It's a great way you know, to do that.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, this is if we're going to spend any of the rest of our time on one thing it would be this because I think, excuse me, I think this alter ego effect is so incredibly important for anybody that decides they want to achieve a very difficult goal but especially when they don't believe that they they belong, right so it for you in the world of first sport. It was and I've heard you mentioned in other interviews where you just you're kind of quiet and shy and really nice. and all of a sudden, you take on this alter ego persona, and we're like, man, that Lesley's a real fish. Right? Like, you've talked about how people have just had this visceral reaction to you, but it was that switch that mindset switch of just believing this is who I am. And I can do it that had a fairly major difference. And I would imagine that in the world of deciding, I'm going to go from being a triathlete to not only I'm going to take a try, or I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna see if I can become a screenwriter. It's, I'm Oscar about I mean, you were literally saying that over a decade ago. So what kind of a persona did you have to adapt when you're either in front of the computer or writing your screenplay when you're on the phone trying to pitch your show, like, what was the alter ego for you to become the Oscar nominated, and hopefully soon to be Oscar winning screenwriter and producer.

Lesley Paterson: For me, it was watching a lot of videos of filmmakers that I respect, that are very intelligent, that approach story in a way that is unusual and different, has a bigger picture has a deeper essence, by Guillermo del Toro, absolutely law firm, I watched all of his videos, he's so profound, in a way that is so accessible. So just, you know, listening to a lot of videos, and watching a lot of talks, reading a lot around that, just to be completely immersed in that world to feel part of it. And I think, you know, and I'm a voracious consumer of films and television, and, you know, there's so much excitement for me to be moved by good story, that I can't even explain it, I think like you spoke about energy, there's an energy that comes from being moved like that, that catharsis, that comes from watching something truly profound. And that, that feeling that energy, that's what I'm after. And so I kind of embody that energy when I'm when I'm writing and try and just kind of let it go and find that flow. But then the other side of that is being humble enough to know that you're always going to be learning that you should always be learning. And that to, you know, continuously take classes, be around other people, confront your weaknesses, all of those things to try and make you better I did that in sport. I always put myself in the tough situations, and I do that in my craft as well. So surrounding yourself by people that are, you know, up on that pedestal that you can really learn from is a huge piece of, it's what I love, again, that mass move the craft, and want to learn, I'm excited to learn. That's why I do it. I'm not sitting there thinking, I want to be Spielberg. That's not what I'm thinking. I'm thinking, Oh, my God, I love stories, I want to tell a story really well. And I want that little girl on the other side of the screen, to have that feeling I had when I grew up. That's my goal, which is very different. It's not an outcome goal, necessarily. It's a process goal. And that's where most people I think, you know, lose the ways they think too much about the end result.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I would not only second that. But another piece I want to add to it is I think you have to find the perfect blend of both. I think if it's just a process based goals, then you create the endless excuse of oh, well, I'm not quite ready, and I just, I need to learn more, I need to write another spec script or whatever it might be. But if you couple the big, audacious goal down the road, right, you write that down, you proclaim it and then you just set it and forget it. And now you focus on the process. Then you have the Northstar to go to which is the one of the reasons that I decided at the ripe old age of just under 40 at the time with a an award winning DadBod I decided you know what, I think I'm gonna become an American Ninja Warrior, not I want to lose 10 pounds or I want to get in shape. Because I really wanted to understand the psychology of what it feels like to immerse yourself in a truly ridiculously life changing and challenging goal. And what I learned is that if you just focus on the outcome, you're gonna give up so fast, because it always feels like it's in the distance. But if like you said, it's all about the craft, and for me, it's all about learning skills. It's not a matter of have I achieved the goal of being a ninja yet. It's Oh, I was able to get 14 times around the pegboard. Next week, I want to get 15 times around the pegboard, whatever it might be. Those are the little things that you get so excited about learning a new skill learning a new craft, where the side effect for me is you become healthier and stronger and leaner. But it's not about the body image. It's that I just become obsessed with the craft itself. You can apply that to anything like you said. You apply to writing, but I feel you really need both. Because if it's just I'm going to become a great writer 20 years are gonna go by, and I just gotta watch that one more video or take that one. We use that excuse of perfectionism.

Lesley Paterson: And that, that, that that mindset is very much about fear, you know, you're scared of putting yourself out there to get that to feel you're scared to fail. And I think that that, you know, I was lucky enough to have parents that supported me through failure. But furthermore, I'm in from such a young age, my dad, you know, he would set up my sporting career, we'd really talk about those big goals. What what is your five year plan? What is your 10 year plan? Your five year plan? He did this with me at like 13 years old, we would write it out. So I truly did understand what that meant. Can you just hang on two seconds? Yeah, of course. No, sorry. Someone else? I thought I'd booked the remote for longer than I had. Just stay there.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, no problem. I just I love how every stage of this recording today just exemplifies what we're talking about, because logistically, this is kind of in a shitshow. I love it. It's so perfect. Like every five min, well, this doesn't work. Oh, we need to switch the microphone. I shit somebody's taking the room. But again, it just it what this exemplifies and I'm not even saying this between cuts, I'm now just going to kind of put this in the show is that while we're recording this, your microphone has been a mess twice, you've dropped out now you've had to switch rooms. But neither neither of us at any point, we're thinking, gee whiz, maybe we should just give this up or try it another day. We both are just like, alright, let's figure it out. Let's just move through it, this thing's not going to be perfect. But it's still gonna be incredibly valuable. And I think that the way that my brain is wired, and the way that yours is wired, is that like you said, with the neuroplasticity, you just get to the point where the only thing you consider is what is necessary to move forwards? Not should I move forward? Should I try? It's just what needs to happen to move forwards. So here we are anybody that's watching us like, Oh, now she's in a different location. Is this perfect for a YouTube video? Nope, don't care, right? Because we're here, and we're gonna make it happen. And I want to now apply exactly what we're talking about to get even deeper into the weeds of this idea of failure and rejection. Because I would assume that over a 16 year span, from, oh, this could be a fun property to option two now being here and being on the cusp of being an Oscar winner. I bet you got to know or two along the way. And I would like to know if there were any points and maybe for you there weren't most people have these, maybe you don't have this point where you said, it's not going to happen, because that's not the way or wire but I'm curious, what's the closest you ever got to maybe this isn't going to happen? And what are some of the other major rejections along the way that happened to so many writers to help them better understand how to move through all of the failure?

Lesley Paterson: You know, we had just so many knows it so many different times. And luckily, you know, I had the partnership with Ian, I had my husband there. We always had to lean on each other. So I think having a support network of people to lean against when you're dealing with that kind of rejection. And how do you pivot from that? And how do you learn from that? How you take their note and say, Is there something valuable I can take from this? That is going to help me get to the next stage? That's point number one. And point number two is evaluating what what that no really means? Can you just throw it out? Can you just see, okay, yep. Onto the next. So it's always that combination, right? We had it from big agencies, like you'll never make this film. This is never gonna happen. Just give up now. You know, all of those kinds of things. Man, are you in this room?

Zack Arnold: We're speaking about skills. Here we go again, I am so sorry. No apology necessary. We'll just keep forging ahead. We'll get to the next one. We're gonna get to the next lamppost.

Lesley Paterson: Okay, okay. So failures and dealing with news. And so yeah, we had a lot of big executives turn it down. We had a lot of, I think, for us, it was really sort of the different strategies that we had to employ along the way about how to get a film of this nature off the ground. Because the landscape of film changed across 16 years. You know, there's no way we could have done this as a German speaking language film 16 years ago, you couldn't raise the finance. But then of course streamers change that we wanted local content, Parasite winning Best Picture, Best Foreign Film change. 1917 Min. The World War One was a popular war to cover. So every step of the way, that landscape was changing. So we had to pivot, what we were learning was changing our approach, you know, do you get a piece of cast on first? Is it then a director? Is it you know, is it the director that you get is a producer? Also what, you know, being on the outside of the industry, which we very much were, we didn't have the inside information about, actually, is this producer worth anything? Do they have access to finance? Are they fellowships? Is this director worth anything? How are they a perceived by the industry, all of those things? So, you know, just having to constantly learn and grow with that, and finding new ways to approach it. And that was key.

Zack Arnold: So what was the deepest kernel inside of you? Where when you were up against all these knows, it was the difference between? Well, we tried our best versus Oh, no, we are making this because there's always some deeper why there's a deeper purpose, there's a story that needs to be told, a goal that needs to be accomplished. What was it about this specifically that if you get all the way down to the core, it was the reason you kept going, despite all the setbacks.

Lesley Paterson: So upon I think, for me, personally, it was, with all the research that we had done. Once you really read all of those change diaries, from the German side, from the British side, from the French side. There's so powerful, and that war was so massive, and the lives that lost so incomprehensible. What these men went through, you cannot fathom what the mothers and wives and sisters and daughters went through, their entire times wiped out. As you're reading and researching this, you don't want it to be forgotten. And one of the main storylines in the film, which is about the armistice, in the last six hours of the war, we felt that was so powerful, and it encapsulated every theme of the book, and everything we understand about war. That it were so we wanted to tell the story so badly, it felt like it was so needed. I think that that ultimately was our spark. And so whenever we would get done would either reread the script, go back and retrenched ideas on back and watch, you know, war films that were inspired by to say that this is what this film could be, we've got to keep going.

Zack Arnold: And the reason I want to bring this up in why I think it's so important is that when you do creative work, if the goal is I want to win an Oscar, if you are not incredibly attached to the subject matter to the story to the impact that will have on the world, you will either give up or you could also have said Oh no, I'm still going to win my Oscar, this just isn't a project, let's find something more marketable. Let's just create whatever the Oscars want, which goes against this idea of being your true and authentic self. That's why I think this conversation is so important for those that are writers or do any kind of creative work, I basically built an entire industry that I filled a niche that didn't exist in my side of the the industry, where people constantly come to me and say, I absolutely hate what I do, I hate the stories that I'm telling, I don't want to work in reality television, or whatever the genre or the media might be. And what you ultimately find is the exact same story for every person, I'm just, I'm not connected to the characters, and it's not having the impact on the audience that I want it to. And as a creative, we want to express her voice and get it out there and have it be heard. So it seems to me that you found that kernel of the story and the necessity of sharing it. And when that relationship between you and the story and the impact is that strong. There's no amount of nodes that are going to stop you if you're willing to embrace the failure along the way.

Lesley Paterson: Right. I think again, it comes back to being self reflective. What moves you as a person? Are you opening your eyes to the world? And what's going on in the world war? Do you feel it is important to tell, to change to have an impact on to see, what do you have to say that's important. And whenever we're thinking of concepts or ideas, it starts with that, Colonel, that feeling in your belly of something that I just want to see. And it doesn't have to be big. This is a big story about war. But it can be as simple as obsession. What does that mean to anybody? I mean, I can relate to that. A lot of people can relate to that button. But if if they can't relate to obsession, what is the obsession in one person due to the relationships around them? Everyone can relate to that. And you know, is it a story of about fathers and daughters about unconditional love of a parent, I can relate to that I think anybody can. So I think it's always finding something personal in the story that you want to tell. And then you understand the backdrop to the world of it. How was that interesting, interesting and exciting, something different we haven't seen before, or something that I want to learn about, and grow from learning about? You know, yeah, so there's so many ways to come about good stories and good filmmaking. But that kernel starts with something deep inside myself, I feel is a message or something I want to say.

Zack Arnold: What I want to do to wrap up today's interview is, again, dig even deeper into this duality of you really have to find something that is true to you and true to yourself, coupled with the polar opposite, which is, I need to develop an alter ego to push through the imposter syndrome and the fear, and all of these other pieces that are going to stop you because we are no matter what the goal is that you want to achieve. If you if you try to achieve something meaningful, it's never going to be easy, it's just not going to happen. Because if it is easy to achieve, then it can't be meaningful enough. So given that I want to talk about these two dualities, and I'm actually going to steal this call for about 10 minutes and have you become my coach. And I want to help somebody build an alter ego, okay, and I don't want to use it in a hypothetical sense where it can be helpful, I want to actually be authentic and true to myself, where I'm struggling right now. And I want you to help me build the alter ego, so that somebody that either as an athlete or is a creative or an artist learns how to build this alter ego themselves. So here's the the general scenario. In the world of being an editor, director, producer, I have very little impostor syndrome, I've always felt good about my ability to do the craft, I've been very successful at what I do. But as I talked about in the journey to becoming a ninja, and learning the sport of ninja and OCR, massive, massive amounts of impostor syndrome that I have spent years chipping away at. But I want to talk about two very specific instances, and how you can help me use an alter ego to overcome this situation, given that I'm probably going to be in it again. So my first year on American Ninja Warrior, I got got that phone call was cast on the show traveled out to Tacoma, Washington, and all of a sudden, I get there. And I see all of these athletes that I've watched on TV that have, you know, been on the show, and they're all celebrities and superstars, and they're on the big banners. And my first thought is, I don't belong here. Who am I to think that is some, you know, guy in his 40s, that's an editor for a living can be a ninja. And I kept thinking over and over and over, I don't belong here. And it didn't matter what rituals I had, as far as stretching beforehand, or breathing or whatever visualization exercises, I get up to the starting line. And I fell on the first obstacle. And I'm completely and totally convinced it was because my mindset was, I don't belong here. So from there, I want to know how to build an alter ego, because what I've also discovered about myself, and I know that you spoke with something similar, when I was much younger, and even to this day, I've been really, really good at practice. And then all of a sudden, I'm in performance, so to speak, and it would all kind of fall apart. And I know that that's something that you experienced as well, where anything that I was really good at during training, you put an audience on me and I would just completely fall apart. This happened to me with baseball for years and years. I was always the the top member of the team when I was in practices when I was in scrimmages. As soon as it was an actual game against another team. And we had an audience, I would just endlessly strike out over and over and over and it drove my coaches crazy. So that's kind of been a part of my experience and my persona, so to speak. So let's go to the end of that first experience on Ninja Warrior. How do we build an alter ego, piece by piece, so that the next time and I've been on the starting line a second time, but let's presume that I hadn't been? How do I build the alter ego? So the next time I walk up there, all those thoughts are gone, and I'm just ready to destroy the course.

Lesley Paterson: Sure. So I think the first mistake is to get rid of all those thoughts because they're still going to come. Right. That's point number one, and that's okay. Accepting that is step number one. But what I would do with you is I would say, Okay, let's do some research. Research is really critical when it comes to building an alter ego. What people out there have achieved something in a field that they had no business being, whether that's as an athlete, whether that's as a business person, whether that's, as you know, going to go into space and astronaut. There's millions of stories out there of people that have achieved something. Maybe Maybe it's somebody with no legs that were told they were net would never complete, you know XYZ, you find four would have five characters or people that really inspire you that have gone that journey and you learn their journey you read about them, you absorb them, you you, you start to see the behaviors, and the trajectory that they went on to find their success. And those behaviors might have been their routine, the things that they watch the music, that they listen to the food that they eat, the things that they wore, and you kind of start to amalgamate some of the behaviors into your own character. And you name that character, and you find a costume for that character, you start to build out behaviors, just like you would in a script with a character that you're writing, you write a backstory to that character, then what you do is you write your own narrative, like you are the hero in your own story. And this is your origin story. The fact you could not get over that wall is your origin story. And you're living in your own film. And right how you see that film being being in that character that you've now built out. And so you create this library for yourself, of pictures that are going to inspire you by this character based off of this research that you've done, you now have a music playlist that inspires you, you now have certain causes or routines that you can do. But this takes practice, it's not something that you just all of a sudden, do this research create this character than you are this character. It's not, you have to practice it in everyday life. And it feels kind of hokey at first, if you're ridiculous, right? So you do it with your first training session for you specifically, it was in sport, that maybe if it is writing, it's you know, your first line of the script, it's your first, you know, beating out of a story, whatever it might be, you create that routine, and you practice it just for five minutes. And then all of a sudden, it's 10 minutes, and then you really challenge yourself to face of fear. So maybe for you within your narrative, it would be, I am gonna go to this race that I know has a ton of people watching. And it has people I know, that I know, and they are going to be there watching and supporting me. In fact, I'm gonna go one step further, I'm gonna invite some of my friends to come and watch me to put myself in the most uncomfortable position. And again, that's part of your narrative that you're forming, and the skills that you're building to cope. So you're finding your worst scenario and you're putting yourself in it, then what you're going to do is you're going to look at your next race, and you're going to say, You know what, I'm going to do as much preparation as possible. I'm going to take out any of the unknowns, and I'm going to prepare, I'm going to know every obstacle like possibly can, if you can know the obstacles, often in those races, you're not allowed. But I am gonna practice everything to the point where I feel so confident, they can throw anything at me, and I'm going to be able to do it. So you kind of create this whole being. And it sort of Yeah, it collides into what will be a performance that you can be proud of. And that might not be next week, it might not be next year, it might be five years from now. But you're developing this process to get you there. I didn't know it was that helpful.

Zack Arnold: No, not not only was it helpful, but I had a couple of aha moments. And the first one that I had, which I think is so important to this process is you said that it's not just about surrounding yourself with somebody else that's achieved it that you want to emulate. You were very specific about the kind of person and you said for me, I don't just seek out people that have been successful with the sport. I've sought many different sports, even different industries, where somebody has achieved something that they had no business that they they had no business achieving what they did, which then leads me to think immediately well done. There's no wonder I gravitated to your Facebook post immediately and said, Oh my god, I must have Leslie on my show. Because that's what I've been doing for years is surrounding myself with people that have achieved things when they have no business achieving that. That's a very common theme of the stories that I tell actually, I directed and produced a documentary film about the first quadriplegic to become a licensed scuba diver, somebody that has no business achieving what they achieved. And I never realized until just now how common a theme that is where I've now put myself as the hero on that story, achieving something I have no business achieving. So that to me in and of itself is a huge revelation for sure. And I think that the other one that I want to tap into just to close this off, and then I'll let you go because you're very busy and in demand. But there's a phrase that I often bump on It rubs me the wrong way, and I want to get your take on it. A lot of people will listen to this process. And they will say, Oh, you just have to fake it until you make it. I hate that phrase. But I'm curious how you feel about it and how it applies to this alter ego process.

Lesley Paterson: So there is actually some neuroscience behind the fake it to make it claim. And that, again, is more to do with our physical being our behaviors having an impact on our chemistry in our brain. So for instance, our posture and how that affects our chemistry, you know, the wiring of our brain that neuroplasticity. So, you know, to a certain extent there is some element of that can work. But it's not, it's not plug and play, you know, you've got to, you've got to buy into what that faking it really is, and you've got to break it down. And you've got to build the blocks kind of effectively, otherwise, it's not going to work, and it's not going to work across time. So when I came across here, as a little Scottish Lassie into America into California, into the world of confidence, and I can do anything that was not me. I mean, I couldn't even and Elaine See, Hi there, I'm Leslie Patterson, I'm a professional athlete, I couldn't even see that, because I think I deserved it. And so it really just started with me practicing that phrase, and seeing it to people when I first met them. And there was something to, to that there was something to that. I mean, the more that I said it, the more that I bought into that narrative. And the same works the other way around. When you are in a situation, I can't do that, oh, no, I'm not good enough. You know, or I'm just a beginner, all of those things. Now, though, you might well be a beginner, I mean, I'm relatively new to this industry. But I have confidence that I have abilities, but I have enough humbleness to know I have a lot to learn. So you know, it's again, it's kind of being self reflective, about about the situation. So it's not a plug and play. But there's something to be said about creating a narrative of where you want to be. And kind of, you know, prying that open and starting to adopt some of those behaviors. You know, again, as an athlete, right, it's like walking into a situation. Maybe it says the local swim program, I used to get so nervous because I was not a swimmer by going to my local swim program that was like we call it master swim. And you know, all these guys, you just seem so confident and the world is swimming is kind of there's a lot of arrogant people. And you know, it's just like walking in shoulders back walking up to the court. Hi, there. I'm Lesley, I'm interested in joining your program. I'm not sure of my ability right now. But maybe you can give me some information about which lane I should go in, you know, and kind of practicing that sentence. So the faking it to me was that I have enough confidence to be a part of this program. But doing it in such a way that is still humble, because I know I'm shitting it inside, you know, so it's like an honesty and an authenticity, but with confidence. That's the difference.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and the the honesty and authenticity, those are the parts that I value so much and why I why I don't like the phrase fake it until you make it because especially being in California and being entrenched in the entertainment industry, it's nothing, but people that are faking it with a total lack of authenticity, or self or self reflection whatsoever. But what I always like to say is that you face it until you make it so you face that fear of I feel I don't belong, but I'm just gonna put myself in in any way but with a sense of humbleness of I've got a lot to learn. But I want to be a part of this. And I want to surround myself with the right people. But the final thought that I want to leave people with is a very small, but really important word that you mentioned, which is just, I'm just this I'm just that, well, I'm not a writer, right. And we're waiting for the world to give us permission. We want somebody you want somebody else to say, Oh, this is Lesley, she's a producer and a writer. Nobody's going to do that. Nobody's going to believe that you can make this transition until you believe it first.

Lesley Paterson: Right 100% And believing in again will come back to process if you are working on being the best that you can be if you're taking classes, you're reading scripts, you're watching films, you're working your craft, then you are a writer. That's what you are. So that the preparation, the focus on excellence or focus on craft gives you the right I hate to see that. So regardless of whether that's a writer, a producer, a filmmaker, a mother, a father, this or that, if you're working on being better. And again, this is mindset. So Carol Dweck, I'm sure you've read her books. So it's I'm, Yep, there he goes. That's it. I am not good at this yet. That's a magic word yet. So that's kind of the mantra by both my husband and I live by that metric.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I'm not surprised at how much overlap there is, and the things that I teach and the things that I believe in the things you teach, and you believe, something tells me that our paths are probably going to cross again, hopefully, multiple times. But in a world of sound bites and newsreels and being cut off from your speech when you're live on stage winning your BAFTA. Is there anything else that's really important for you to get out into the world and mention that we haven't already talked about?

Lesley Paterson: Be generous, give back. Because you know what, I wish people had done that with me, it would have made the journey a lot easier. There have been some people that have helped me and I'm incredibly grateful for that. But Martin moving forward, I want to help our people, and create a community that is positive, and yeah, can move other people into the world that I've been allowed to come into now.

Zack Arnold: Well, I'm gonna do my best to be generous and share your story as much as I am able to, because I think that people will be just as inspired by you as I was when I stumbled upon a Facebook post just a few days ago. And here we are recording. And whether you like it or not, you might have a new email pen pal, because I think the you and I may have more things to discuss in the future. But at least for now, I want to be respectful of your time and the many opportunities you have in front of you. So to close out if anybody wanted to learn more about you specifically, if they wanted to get your book, what's the best way to be to build more of a relationship either of you or your previous body of work? Where would we send them?

Lesley Paterson: Yes so you can check out my email address is les@lesleypaterson.com. We have a website which is our coaching website, braveheartcoach.com. Our book is The Brave Athlete – Calm the F Down and Rise to the Occasion or Calm the Fuck Down. I'm allowed to say fuck on this podcast.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, you are.

Lesley Paterson: Check me out and IMDB. I've got my information there. You'll probably see me running around town if there's a mic nearby. And there's a wee blonde thing run up and down. That will be me.

Zack Arnold: So I love it. Well, when I do my next semester Spartan training because I take creatives and I bring them into the OCR, OCR world, and I train them for their first Spartan Race, and I often have guest speakers and instructors. If you're not too weighed down by all of your awards, I might just ask you to come be a guest instructor one of those Sundays because I pretty much that experience.

Lesley Paterson: I'd love to just come and work out. He's like, let's do it, buddy.

Zack Arnold: Where are you located?

Lesley Paterson: I'm in Culver City.

Zack Arnold: Oh, well, then this is just a done deal. I trained on the Santa Monica Beach and Santa Monica Pier. Okay, you and you and I are going to be seeing each other a Sunday soon. And I do have some of my OCR training God, what an honor. That would be. Cool. All right. Well, then on this note, I want to be very respectful of your time and again, I cannot thank you enough. And I feel like this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship as they say in the industry. So Lesley can't thank you enough and best of luck next weekend.

Lesley Paterson: Fingers and toes crossed. Thanks, Zack.

Episode Credits

This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared by Debby Germino and published by Glen McNiel.

The original music in the opening and closing of the show is courtesy of Joe Trapanese (who is quite possibly one of the most talented composers on the face of the planet).