Navigating the Messy Middle of a Career Pivot | with Sandy Zimmerman

About Episode

A few years ago, Sandy Zimmerman came on the Zack Arnold podcast as a longtime Physical Education teacher and coach. During that conversation, she made a quiet prediction—she felt she was meant for something more and believed she’d be back to share her journey. She was right. Today, Sandy is a full-time speaker, coach, and author, traveling the country to share her Dream Big Formula and her book, Get Out of the Car – Inspirational Stories for Cultivating an Empowering Inner Voice.

But her transition wasn’t easy. For years, Sandy carried the weight of an inner voice shaped by a difficult childhood—a voice that told her she wasn’t capable of achieving anything extraordinary. In our conversation, she opens up about the fears she had to face as she left behind the comfort and stability of a decades-long teaching career. She shares the mindset shifts that gave her the confidence to take the leap, along with the strategies she still relies on to overcome challenges, stay focused, and continue growing in her new career.

If you’re feeling stuck or unsure about your next step, my conversation with Sandy offers valuable insights and real-world advice to help you work through uncertainty and move forward with greater clarity and confidence.

Key Takeaways

Sandy borrowed from other people’s belief in her when she couldn’t believe in herself
It’s okay to not be pedal to the metal in every single area of your life

Transcript

Zack Arnold: I am here today again with Sandy Zimmerman. And for those of you that don't know Sandy Zimmerman, it is, let's just say, a bit of a challenge to encapsulate Sandy in a single opening of a podcast. You have been a physical education teacher. You've been a judo champion. You have played division one basketball at Gonzaga, you have been a I don't even know how many times you've now hit buzzers and been how many seasons of a Ninja Warrior. I've lost track of all of these things. But here's what's interesting. When you and I met a few years ago and we had this conversation, and I'm going to make sure to refer to it, and we're going to put a link in the show notes. Here's what was not on the list, public speaker and author So Sandy, adding that on to the large repertoire of all the things that you have accomplished, very, very happy that you were willing to come back and do this again. So thank you.

Sandy Zimmerman: Absolutely. You know that it's funny if people go back and listen to that podcast, it really was a kick in the butt. If I had to describe your style of interview, I was at this crossroads, you know, am I going to continue to teach and coach I've loved it for 23 years? Or am I going to listen to that gut, that intuition, God, the universe, that is telling me there's another chapter in your life? Now this one has been great, but I have another one for you. So you gave me a real swift kick in the butt,

Zack Arnold: And of course, I did it with all the compassion and empathy in the world. But I think one of the things that's really common, it's a common thread amongst most great educators, not necessarily good educators, but the great educators of which I believe you're in that category. And I hope people would say I'm in that category, they're really good at seeing the potential in others. And I totally saw it in you. I saw it in you even before the recording, just from following you on TV and kind of knowing you in like, similar ninja circles and whatnot, right? But having that conversation, there was potential there that I saw in you. So I'm glad you brought up our previous conversation. So I actually, I have a little bit of a surprise for you. If you're going to bear with me for a second, I actually want to play you a portion of that conversation, because I want you to see what I believe to be one of the actual light bulb moments that was the catalyst, right? So there you have a whole lot of positive influence in your life, of which we've talked about in the past. Episode. We may talk about some of that again, but I really believe that I literally captured on video during the podcast the light bulb moment where there was a shift that happened. And I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to play this for you,

Sandy Zimmerman: But Zack, I will tell you something crazy. I don't I don't know. Maybe we'll have another conversation in five years, but part of me feels like I as crazy as it sounds, because I've been doing it for 22 years, and finally, at this point, you start to make a decent living wage as a teacher.

Zack Arnold: Most of my family is teachers. I come from a long line of teachers. My wife is a third grade teacher. My sister is a teacher, my dad is a teacher. So I know it all too little, but continue. Oh yes, yeah.

Sandy Zimmerman: So you get it. And I know it sounds so crazy when I think about this, but again, those feelings, as much as I love teaching, and I still do love it today, I feel like there's something else I'm supposed to do, and I don't know what it is, and I think my wheels are turning because it just part of me. It doesn't make sense. I'm doing a job I love I'm making a difference in these kids lives. I'm investing in their lives. But I just there's something in me going, there's something else you're supposed to be doing. I think, really, I'm living this comfortable, great life. I'm teaching I love it. I love what I do. I'm finally making decent money at it, because I've been at it for a while and and now it's this feeling of but there's something else.

Zack Arnold: What are your first thoughts watching yourself saying all of that?

Sandy Zimmerman: Oh, I you know, it really strikes me how it actually makes me really proud that I look at that version of myself, and I think I have evolved so much, you know. And I think a lot of times people look at makeovers, and it's oftentimes a physical makeover, right? Maybe it was a weight loss journey or some big makeover with your hair and makeup and nails or whatever it is, but watching that back, what a transformation for me, and makeover in mindset, this has been more so than anything else, because, man, I really haven't aged much Zack

Zack Arnold: Other than the color of your shirt. I wouldn't know that these are different conversations other than you got a book behind you. Now I do. The reason I wanted to show you that is you exactly setting the foundation for today's conversation is that that makeover of that mindset, right? And the first thought that comes to mind is, you're looking at this former version of yourself, and I'm thinking the former version of yourself was the first mom that hit a buzzer on American Ninja war. Career. You're on the banners, you're on the Kelly Clarkson show, but now you're looking at this past version of yourself saying, Wow, look how much I've grown like i i find that that's striking, because most would say she was doing great. But again, it's that idea of kind of recognizing that unrealized potential. So I just, I find it very intriguing that upon looking at that, the first thing you're thinking of like, wow, so much has changed. And I think that there's, there's so much that so many people would admire about that person, but it really, it's, it comes down to intuition, right? And in intuition, I think, is a big part of what I want to talk about today. So let's, let's catch everybody up, right? I want to make sure that for anybody that didn't listen to our previous conversation, we at least give them a little bit of a summary so they're not like, Who the hell is Sandy? And now we're talking about her writing a book and speaking. But how did she get here? So I at least want to start with let's assume that you and I hadn't talked. Let's do kind of the three to five minute version of, kind of your origin story to help people get to the point where I played that little clip for them, but for the majority of today's conversation, I want you to catch me up between the day we recorded and where you are now, because it has been so much fun watching you from a distance via social and whatnot, and be like, boom, she's doing it. But for those that don't, don't know, you aren't familiar, haven't listened to that previous episode yet. Let's do the the three to five minute version of the origin story.

Sandy Zimmerman: Okay, I am. I'm not known for keeping things short and sweet, Zack, but I will.

Zack Arnold: You don't need to. That's why I record for 90 minutes, because I can't keep it short and sweet either.

Sandy Zimmerman: Oh, good. Not a strength of mine. I have other ones, but that's probably not one of them. You know, it my whole life. I mean, it's just incredible to me, how I feel like everything that has happened has led to another thing happening and another thing happening and another thing. And how when you're in the midst of your life, you really can't see it, but then when you zoom out and you can see, like, the whole picture, it's like, oh my gosh, I can totally see where this has led to this, and this to this, and it's just been timing and a lot of that. But in In short, I had a really rough childhood. I had a really rough childhood, one that I would not wish upon anything or anyone, filled, you know, with abuse and neglect and mental health issues from family members, people incarcerated. And it was, it was tough, and I'm literally here today, and one of the big stories that I share is the importance of investing in other people. And when you say you saw potential in me for whatever reason the universe God has put in my path my entire life, people that saw potential in me. And that is such a powerful thing, and I've literally had it my entire life. So I had people that didn't see a poor girl who grew up on welfare and spent time in the foster care system, people saw more in me. And when people do that, when you don't have that belief in yourself, it's an amazing thing. So what I did is I borrowed everybody's belief in me along the way, as I've done this journey. And even even now as an adult, I think there were still things, baggage, scars, little triggers that I still was carrying, and that I have still continue to do that, and hopefully now I can also do that for others. And I think that's the difference as a child, you know, I grew up and and I just latched on to those people that believed in me, and then wanted to rise to that occasion. And so I have been kind of defined the odds my entire life, and now I kind of find joy in it, and I find a lot of pleasure in improving people, or whatever, you know, wrong, you know, there's just been so many times where I thought, Okay, here's this poor girl, grew up on welfare, spent time the foster care system, and we're going to have her go to college, get a degree, be one of the first in her family ever to graduate from college, and she has a hard time reading, and we're going to have her write a book. She's in her 40s. Let's go have her hit a buzz around American din chip warrior. And you know, she's five six, let's go have her get a full ride scholarship to play basketball at the division one level. So just time after time after time, these things have happened in my life, and I really think the catalyst, though, is belief, and it's just incredible to me along my journey of how people I have borrowed people's and now I'm in a place where I get to hopefully breathe life into people's dreams and goals and their belief in their self. And so that's where this crazy transition of having this incredible teaching career and coaching that I loved, and I just couldn't shake the feeling that this has been wonderful, but I have something more for you. And yes, you've been impacting lives for 23 years, but now I want you to impact lives on an even bigger scale. And as terrifying and scary as it was, what was more scary to me was to live with wonder and regret if I didn't do it. And I think I thought a lot. About our conversation and that little kick you gave me in the butt, and I can't live with that. That would be the worst thing if I go 1020, years finish out my teaching career, and then I'm sitting there going, Gosh, what if my stories could impact and changed lives, and I just sat on them, and it almost, I mean, just made me sick to my stomach, the thought of not doing that and not seeing where this would go. And you know, it's funny when you do something crazy, like American Ninja Warrior and you're brave and courageous. Here's why I love sports. If you learn to be brave and courageous in that environment, it trickles over into everything else. So here I am in my work life, going, alright, this is one of those courageous moments where you gotta leap, you gotta jump, not put your toe in the pool, but absolutely jump in. And I was putting my toe in the in the pool for a while, trying to teach and trying to speak, and I knew at 1.2 things. First of all, that I couldn't do both. Well, I couldn't do it to the standard that I wanted to do it and that I'm an all in person, and I couldn't go all in with both. I really needed to make that hard decision and and pick one and do it to the standard and the level that I wanted to do it and go all in. And I knew, like in my gut, it was, it was speaking, and I knew this book needed to come out, but you fight it a little bit because it's a lot safer. I was doing a career that I loved, and and, and so it was just it was a challenge, and it was hard, but man, oh man, it has been worth every up and down of entrepreneurship and figuring it out and seeing the impact that now my stories are having, and living this crazy new life and this crazy new chapter and and also, you know, I don't want to make it seem like it's rainbow and unicorns. It is a lot of ups and downs. And there are tough days and hard days, and there are times where I wonder, like, oh my gosh, was this the right decision? Was this a crazy thing to do? And the timing of everything, though, I just feel like I can see it all coming together, and it's just amazing.

Zack Arnold: Well, it's like I said, it's been very inspirational and fun to watch it all happen. And I will second that it takes a special kind of crazy to be an entrepreneur and go out on your own. And just to add the icing on the cake, not only is it a special kind of crazy to be an entrepreneur when you yourself are the brand, you're the product and the service that just adds a whole other layer of, you know, pressure, complexity. So I know that for me, and I'm very much, I'm kind of at the tail end of having completely made the transition out of the work that I was doing in Hollywood and now embracing this as a full time thing, and really, like you said, going all in on this platform. And I'll share that a small part of it was thinking, well, if Sandy can do it like, I mean, come on, like, I look, she and I had this conversation, I'd be a bit of a hypocrite if I decided I was too scared to cut the cord and move forwards. But yeah, it's people look at it from the outside like, Oh, you've made it. Everything's going great, congratulations. And you're like, you want to spend a week following me, trying to figure out how to book these gigs and try to write a book and trying to, you know, publish it like it's it's a lot. So I want to learn a lot more about that part of the journey in a second. But I want to go backwards to something that I think is really, really important to point out, and this is going to both refer to kind of this idea of having these people that are influencing you, but about the power of choices. And you said that throughout your life, you've always kind of had these people that just, it's the right time. You're like, I don't even know how it happens. Who God? Is it? Fate? Is it the universe? But you continually had these people that came along at the right time and said, I see potential in you. That's only part of it. The other part of it is you choosing to listen and choosing to run with it. And you talk a lot about choice. There's literally an entire paragraph in your book where you say you choose love and beauty. You're the one that chooses to live a life of adventure, of possibilities, right? So I guess what I want to better understand is that a lot of people probably have somebody saying you could do more. You have potential. A lot of people are not surrounded by that, but it's one component, the other one being, you actually listened to it, you received it, and you took action. Where does that come from? Given your background?

Sandy Zimmerman: Well, that's a good question for me, and it's funny, you asked this because I have been fiddling with trying to figure out meditation and what works for me.

Zack Arnold: Oh my god, I'm sorry. I'm laughing because me too. Oh my god, that's so funny. Yes, I'm stuck in the exact same place. Continue go on.

Sandy Zimmerman: So the beginning of that meditation journey was like, Hey, I tried to do it very traditionally. What do you picture when you picture someone doing meditation, you know, their legs are crossed, they're sitting in a certain position, they're breathing a certain way, their eyes are closed, they have probably some nice music in the background. So I tried that, and I'm like this. Just not working for me. This is just not working for me. And so I asked my therapist, I said, I know everybody's talked about meditation and how great it is. I've tried it. I've tried the position. I've even put my hands in this position.

Zack Arnold: Right here, right got the fingers and everything.

Sandy Zimmerman: It's just not working for me. And she's and she knows me well enough, but she's like, you know, you love being outdoors. Why not just try that? Like, while you're outdoors, just it's really not, you know, it can look different for different people, and that has been a game changer. And so it's funny that you ask that question, because I was just up in the woods this morning and thinking about that of like, what is it? Why do I like, maybe one of my superpowers is just, I have such a powerful hope and belief in me that things are just going to work out. There's something in me that just knows. I've seen it my whole life. I've had the card stacked against me. I've literally been at rock bottom, and it just always works out. It just always works out. And I don't know if it's just this inner faith or belief or hope that I'm kind of wired that way, but it was funny sitting on the mountain today, and that was what I felt like, that's your superpower, Sandy, that's your superpower. And most people maybe will think, what if it all falls apart? What if it all fails where, for whatever reason, I get up there, it's like, what if it all works out? What if? What if it all just like, is amazing and great. And I'm gonna look back on this and go, Yeah, that was a low point, that was a hard point, or that was an obstacle or a challenge that came up and that was a difficult time. But I just always think, God, there's always just this incredible light at the end, and it's just really comes down to who's gonna choose to, like, hang on long enough to make it through the dark tunnel and get to the end of that. And for me, I think, God, maybe that's, that was my thought, and my meditation on the mountain this morning is that maybe that's what my superpower is. It's just this innate like, it's all going to work out. It's all going to work out, where some people may do the latter of like, what if it all falls apart? What if this is horrible. What if I fail and and I but I will say that's been a shift. It hasn't always been that way, because I am, and I still have this little voice that will pop up, that is the one

Zack Arnold: Even has a name, by the way. It does little sandy, uh huh,

Sandy Zimmerman: That. And it pops up, but I'm more aware of it now, but it pops up and goes, God, what if you look like a fool in front of everybody? What if you fail in front of everybody, and those thoughts have come up, but I'm just so much more aware of it now that I can hear that and go, Yeah, but what if it all works out? What if this is amazing, and what if I get to impact lives on a scale that I never even imagined could happen? So

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I think that that, to me, is just one of the the most fundamental mindset shifts from what if I fail to instead what if I succeed. And I could also argue that what if I succeed can often be just as terrifying depending on the circumstances. There's I learned years ago, I thought it was my I was working with a therapist at the time, and he was talking about fear of success. I'm like, That's dumb. What do you mean? Fear of success? And all of a sudden I realized that one of my deepest darkest fears was fear of success and not failure. And what that would mean, how it changes your relationship with people? So, you know, what if I fail versus what if I succeed? I think that's a transition that I think far more people, you know, are probably in a place where it would be helpful to embrace that. Because I think for most it's it's the what if I fail? Question, and we're definitely going to talk more about what failure is, what it can be, how to reframe it. Like, I know that you talk a lot about reframing failure as do I, but it's interesting. Again, this is where I think you and I have some kind of kindred spirit connection, because I asked this question, partly because I was reflecting on the same thing, and I had a very similar realization, and it's a it was a very distinct picture where I literally was packing up all the stuff in our car to evacuate for the fires here in Los Angeles. Our house is now fine. We're back and settled in, but we were close enough I could see fires out this window right here. And literally, backyard evacuation zone. Front yard wasn't and like, we should evacuate out of caution. But then I was thinking, like, you know, I could literally be packing the house, and I'm never coming back to the house again. Like you asked really difficult question, what would I grab if I all I have is a trunk, right? But then the funniest thing came up, you're my generation, so I don't know whether or not you were a fan, but did you watch Seinfeld a little bit, little bit so, but you're not like a super fan like me. So I'll give a little bit of context. There was an episode where there were a few bad things that happened to Jerry's, like, whatever. I'll be fine. Like, what do you mean? Like, she just dumped you and you just lost this job. He's, like, things always work out for me. Like, what are you talking about? Like, and literally, they were balancing it out as a joke. One thing would go away the next day. He'd get a call, lost a job, got a job, lost her girlfriend, got a girlfriend, right? And he's like, yeah, it always works out. And then I thought to myself, it's funny, because by and large, I feel like I have a similar story, but where it's different, for me, you get to the precipice, if it's right, to the point when everything's going to fall apart and it's chaos, but right before you think it's all over, oh, everything's work out, works out, and you're okay. I'm like, Yeah, kind of makes sense. I'm evacuating. I can see flames on the hill, but I don't know. Something tells me that amidst all the chaos, we'll figure it out and we'll end up on the other side. So I can relate to kind of that, that mindset and that feeling. So

Sandy Zimmerman: You are actually describing my week Zack in that, you know, over the holidays, people don't usually have speakers, and so very slow through November and December, not booking gigs. And I was completely freaking out, and I thought, oh my gosh, did I make this leap? And this isn't where I'm supposed to be, but I really felt like there was just no doubt in me that I was supposed to do this. But this doesn't make sense. Is this not going to work out? Is this not where I'm supposed to be, and a really dangerous prayer to pray, though, is that if this is where I'm supposed to be, it needs to all work out, and if it's not, then have it crash and burn. So I clearly know this is not the path you want for me. And I pray that prayer, and it's a scary one, but I just feel like I want clarity if I'm in where I'm supposed to be doing what I'm supposed to be doing. So I'm here freaking out about the November, December and and a couple days pass, and you know, it's just this building thing of like, oh my gosh, is this? Is this not where I'm supposed to be? Because I feel like it is. And immediately, several emails, several calls, like, Hey, we're looking for a speaker. We'd like to know some more information. Can you send us pictures, videos, all this stuff about booking a gig? I thought, are you kidding me? So just like that, within the next two days, I booked like, five gigs. And I thought, okay, universe, God, I got the picture. This is where it's supposed to be, what I'm supposed to be doing. And it's really, I think a lot of times, I don't know, maybe God has a really funny sense of humor, you know? And it's just like, let's just toy with her a little bit and like, have her question this. But there's been times where like that, I'll freak out, and then it's just like, oh, there it goes. It all just works out. And it's reaffirming to me that I'm where I'm supposed to be and and doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Or a timely, you know, when I'm wondering, Am I impacting lives? And the timely message I'll get, you know, from Instagram or Facebook or or some email, like, randomly, I'll get one of, like, what a difference you made in my life. Thank you for sharing this or that. And it's like, okay, so so many times where I start to get to that FREAK OUT point, and then it's like, just hang on. Just hang on. Good news is coming, yeah,

Zack Arnold: And it's funny, you bring up the the emails, because I I can't remember the exact dates, but I can very distinctly remember four different times over the span of the last 10 years where I said, this is too hard. I quit. I'm not doing it anymore. I'm just going to go back. I'm going to get a job. I've got a regular income, right? Like, that day Bing, incoming. Just wanted to let you know I found your podcast or listened to this. I could totally change my perspective on whatever it is, right? Like, can't. Thank you enough. I'm like, damn it, I'm gonna, I'm just, I gotta keep doing the thing, right? But the reason that I bring this up is because I can't speak for everybody in every industry, but I can say, by and large, for those that are a member of my industry, whether it's entertainment or even though that do creative work, this is kind of the apocalypse right now. I mean both literally in Los Angeles, but figuratively, we've been watching Hollywood burn down for the last two years. And a lot of people are in this transitional phase of saying, I don't think things are going to work out. I don't know if I'm being called to do something else. And I wanted to use you as an example to really understand what it looks like to both, kind of listen to what that intuition might be. But then once you dive into the pool, you're like, all right, I'm here. I gotta figure this out. Like you said, it's not all rainbows and unicorns and butterflies. So I want to talk about all the dark thoughts, all the things, the challenges that came along the way, because it's great to say, oh, everything works out. But a lot of people right now are in that darkest spot of it doesn't feel like it's ever going to work out, and I feel like I'm trapped and I don't know what to do, right? So I kind of wanted to go back to what would have been shortly after our conversation, where you decide you know what I am going to go for it. I have no idea what this is going to lead towards. So you can pick whatever kind of that that inflection point would be. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking, it's like, it's the day that you quit your job. But something like that was there an inflection point where you thought, This is it. I'm jumping into the pool.

Sandy Zimmerman: I Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, with you. So I think that definitely was a defining point in okay, this is it like, I'm not coming back to teaching. I'm going to finish out this school year making that announcement, you know, to everyone at school, and making that announcement to the kids. And that was tough. That was really tough. But I think making that verbal announcement that, okay, this is I'm going to finish out this year, and I'm jumping all in with the speaking part of my career. And for me, the big part too in, if people are, you know, wondering, Am I jumping all in, or should I jump into I think something to really keep in mind is that sometimes we jump in and then it leads kind of down a little different path, and then it leads down a little different path. So I don't know if it's necessarily you jump all in and this is it, where it's just like a lap pool, and you're going straight. I think sometimes you might jump in and it veers you here, and then it veers you here. And so I feel like one of the mindset shifts that I've really had to embrace and just really learn to love is that I feel like so much of this chapter has been like an experiment. I try. I tried this part of it, and I'm like, Okay, well, that didn't really work. Well, how do I just adapt that? Or maybe that's not, you know, maybe that wasn't the answer. Let's, let's try this path. And so within the whole speaking thing, there's just lots of little paths to go, like, what topics do I want to speak on? What what is my expertise? Where can I really impact lives? What audience is that? So it's been a series of, you know, this is almost two years now, of tweaking it all, let's try this list. Group. Is this the story and is this how I craft it? Is this how I tell it? Is this the audience I'm looking for? Is this the people I want to reach out to? Is this the community or group? So, so much of my life, I feel like, the last few years has been experimenting, and so in experimenting, figure out, well, that didn't work. Okay, let's shift gears and try this. Let's experiment here. And then you get one. You're like, Yes, that's it. And, you know, and you keep pressing and you go forward with that. So I think the last two years, it's been a shift in that, in your mindset of, don't think of it as failure. You're experimenting. You're literally seeing what works and what doesn't. And that's necessary. It's a necessary part of moving forward and learning and growing and and moving, you know, your career forward too.

Zack Arnold: And I'm sure, of course, that all this was very easy for you to navigate, given that you're very well off financially. You have no children or family to take care of. You have all this room to experiment and make all the mistakes you want, right?

Sandy Zimmerman: Oh, well, that definitely adds a piece to that. It it was, I will say, a luxury. And I know not everyone is in this position, but that my husband has steady income, so we have our all of our health benefits and all of that through him, and retirement still going, and all of those things. And you know, it's kind of one of those where it takes it. I knew it was going to take a family effort to make this happen, and I knew, and I have known, all of the big dreams and goals that I've ever accomplished in my life. Have never been alone. You know, there are so many people that have been on my sideline, that have been run alongside me in this, that have encouraged me along the way, or helped and supported me in different ways. So I don't think anyone that has ever achieved anything significant would say, Yeah, I did that all by myself, because there's always such an incredible team behind me. And I feel like, you know, my husband has been kind of this behind the scenes, hero in, in, in giving that stability so I can chase this, and so I can pour into it and give me time to get it to grow. But you know, that was another thing of like, how, though, can I in this still stay true of the using my stories and my impact and get some income coming in? So I've had to be really creative. I've also done some coaching, and so that has been some income that I can bring in and still keep that going while I still grow the the other part of the business, and speaking so being creative and again, experimenting, I feel like I've continuously, daily, kind of on that journey. And yes, there's a lot of rejection and a lot of no's and a lot of failure, but I think, well, that's part of the experimenting is, is taking those and then learning from it. So, yeah.

Zack Arnold: So the what this reminds me of is a conversation that I had with an author and teacher's name is Eduardo berseno. Are you familiar with Carol Dweck in the book mindset, talking about a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset?

Sandy Zimmerman: I have not read it, but I have. I've heard of it. Yeah, you give her clips about it,

Zack Arnold: You literally encapsulate the core ideal of having a growth mindset. So if you haven't read it, especially as an educator and a coach like it's, to me, it's just foundational knowledge to learn how to be a better teacher, how to be a better coach. But essentially, she had a protege. His name was Eduardo barceno, and he has an extension of that growth mindset that's called Learning Mode and performance mode. And for anybody that wants to go deeper, shameless self promotion, I have a podcast with Eduardo, and they can we'll put a link in the show notes, but what you're talking about is the perfect representation in the real world of embracing learning mode. And as a teacher, I'm sure you can very much identify with the fact that we have this phase of our life where we're teaching, we're teaching, we're teaching, right? We've got these young kids, they're coming up, they're learning, they're learning, they're learning. But then an expectation changes shortly after graduation. Now you need to perform. Now you need to show up every day. You need to be productive. And all of a sudden this idea of, well, I want to learn and experiment and fail. It's like, No, you can't do that anymore. You must be proficient, and you must always be successful. And it's almost like you've had to adopt a beginner's mind. Like, yep, I'm a new kid. I'm on a new playground, and I gotta learn how all this works. And you know, there's gonna be a lot of those failures, but the fact that you're embracing the learning process says that you are just square in the depths of like, living through learning mode right now?

Sandy Zimmerman: Yeah, I It's funny because I, I, in a lot of ways, feel like I am going back to school.

Zack Arnold: You are the school of life. You're in the school of hard knocks right now.

Sandy Zimmerman: Yes, and so many different parts of this, you know, business that I am learning and growing, and then also just seeking out people. Here's the greatest thing, seek out people that are way smarter than you, that are way better at X, Y or Z, and learn from them. And I think that's been a key of you know, if there's something I don't know how to do, let me go find someone who's really good at it and see if I I can learn from them and grow in this area. And so I've really it is, it's like I've been back at school and and I think that's always been maybe one of the ways that I'm wired is I have always wanted to seek out wisdom and to seek out just learning from other people. I think I didn't have that in my household. You know, where most people you guide and you give your kids wisdom, right? And I look at my own kids, and I think, oh my gosh, we're constantly doing that, like working through things, having conversations, trying to just put in little words of wisdom, little seeds that you plant with your kids. And I just didn't have that growing up. And so I think for me, the way that I was able to learn and grow and gain that wisdom was just from everything around me. Could I find someone that could give me a little bit of wisdom to help me? Could I read something that would give me a little bit of wisdom to help me? And so I think it's just been something that I've always been like that. And so even now, it's like, I, I just gravitate towards people like, like that. Are like, let me learn from you. And I just feel like, don't, but I really think everybody, I could learn something from everybody, you know, and, and I've taken that into all aspects of my life, you know. I I coach a couple basketball teams and and all it. I feel like I could learn from any coach. It doesn't matter if they're coaching a bitty ball team or they're a division one coach here in town. I reach out to them all like, Hey, can I come watch some practices? I just want to learn, and I want to grow. And so I think that's just always been my mindset towards anything of find people and learn from them, you know, and if it's someone that you know has a great reputation for being really good at whatever it is that you're trying knowledge you're trying to gain. Then Then go and pick their brain. And a lot of people love sharing that stuff. And then also, I love sharing someone reaches out to me if I can help them. It's kind of that, that phrase, you know, rising tide lifts all boats. And if I had a core value, that's one of them. And I think, man, if I can, if I can help you, and we can all rise together like you're not the competition, you're not the competition. It's really about us rising together. And I love that and and I try to live that, you know, for other people, to help them along, and then I try to, like, soak up stuff from other people so I can continue to rise. And it's just a core value of mine, that and a way that I live my life.

Zack Arnold: And it's no surprise then that you gravitated to Ninja Warrior, because that is kind of a core value of that community, and that was actually one of the things that I gravitated towards. Because I certainly didn't watch the show and say, Oh, I'd be good at that, like to this day, still not good at it at all. We might talk more about those failures in a bit, but I remember seeing one of these little featurettes where they were talking with the athletes, and this was at Vegas, at the Vegas finals, when it's all on the line, and between stages, they're helping each other. And like, What the hell kind of sport is this? Like, they're like, oh, you should do this. And I made a mistake here. You should do that instead. I'm like, that's the coolest thing ever. Like to be playing, you know that? And it's you. There's, you know, a fine line between it's a TV show and it's a sport. Now it's really become a sport, but, you know, that's, you know, there's, as I'm sure, you know, there's kind of a gray area between these but by and large, to the athletes on the show, it is a sport. It is a competition, but everybody's helping everybody else. And I can't remember who it was, I think it might have been Kevin Bull, because I talked to him years ago, and he basically said, the reason that we do it is that if I'm going to win, I want to win at my best, knowing that this other person was at their best. I don't want to bring them down and beat them. I want to know that we were helping each other. They were at their best, and I beat them at their best, and I also was able to bring my best. And that might that was a huge mindset shift for me, especially coming from just the world of Hollywood and all the things that you can presume about the competitiveness and the cutthroat nature of this industry. It's all true, not everywhere, but it's been really challenging for me to cultivate a peer group and a community where we all again, like you said, believe that the rising tide lifts all the boats, but it's just it's so much more rewarding to surround yourself with people that way, knowing that, like you said, you can't do it alone. And just to again, I always talk about seeking out the right mentors, the right guides, and I, too am, like, you were like, oh, I want to learn Ninja Warrior. I'm going to reach out to Jesse graph, and I'm going to have Jesse graph teach me how to be a ninja warrior. Like, who the hell does that right? But I just, I want to learn. And one of my key mindsets, and I'm, I'm curious if this is, it sounds like you embrace this as well. But my, my rule is that whenever it is that I want to learn something, I want to be the worst one in the room. Everybody's thinking they want to be the best one in their way. I want to be the worst one in the room. I'm going to learn ninja with Jesse Graff and P 90x creator, Tony Horton. And I'm like, Just embarrassingly bad, but the learning curve, right? But that means lots of failure along the way. So I'm curious if, if you adopt come some kind of a similar mindset or practice of like, making sure I'm surrounded by people that are much better at this than I am.

Sandy Zimmerman: Yeah, I mean, I when you're sharing that story, it actually made me think of, I'm working with these two basketball teams and the top team, so like, if it was a JV varsity, so this would be, like, your varsity. I knew they were pretty darn good and that they could probably compete. Weren't quite at the elite level of the top couple teams in our state, but they were just right on their tail, like just right there at the beginning of the season. And then our second team was a team that was middle of the pack, maybe kind of upper middle of the pack, but kind of a middle of the pack team. And here's that philosophy in living, breathing truth is that here we are about to go into the championship for our AAU club, and both of our teams are in the Final Four. And I just think which team actually had the most growth this season, that red team had to practice. The second team had to practice against my top team every single day. And the growth that they had from going middle of the pack to now being in the Final Four championship this coming weekend is unbelievable, and that's where they have had the hardest Road, though. They got their butts beat at practice, over and over and over again, and those are some tough days. But if you trust that process, those are the ones that are going to grow the most. So you really you want to grow. You want to learn. It is by surrounding yourself by people that are way better than you. And I think sometimes people get intimidated by that, or they surround themselves with people who are more like yes people. And I think those are not the people I want my life. I want the people that are going to challenge me, that are going to push me, that I'm going to be able to see the bar is this high and what is possible, rather than having it here. And you know they, you know they always say what you you are most like the five people that you surround yourself with, and I think that also applies to what you decide to read, what you decide to watch, all of those. I don't think it necessarily has to be a person and so. But who do you want to surround yourself with? And it is it? Is it going to be to rise to the occasion, or is it going to be this really comfortable Boy, I sure look great compared to the who's around me. I'd much rather like rise to that. And so, you know, I really seek those out. And you have to have zero ego to do that. And you have to really make sure that your relationship and your definition of failure is not what typical people view it as and it's, to me, you're experimenting, and it's called learning, and it doesn't happen without that. And it's really to reframing that idea of what is success. It's about getting a little better every day. Have you been able to move the needle a little bit today? And have you gotten a. Better. And, man, you add those days up, and all of a sudden you you put that together for a year, two years, three years, five years, and now you have this incredible thing in front of you, but most people aren't willing to do that, you know, they want it today. Actually, they wanted it yesterday. And so it's just different, little mindset shifts that I think can really change lives and change the world. You know, if you know what your purpose is, you know what your passion is, you know what you're good at, and you find a way that it can impact lives. It's going to be a rough road, but how can you not chase that? And I guess that's where I'm at with the whole speaking thing is, yeah, it's not easy, but I do feel like this. You know, when I first made this leap, I feel like a lot of people, they wouldn't say it to me, but I felt like a lot of people are thinking, What are you thinking? What are you doing? You're like, at 23 years, you could retire after a certain amount you're not going to be putting into like, it's crazy. So I think a lot of people thought, Why in the world you do it? And I just kept thinking, You know what? In five years, you know what everybody's going to ask me, going to be asking me, in five years, how'd you do it? Sandy, how'd you do it? So I'm about two years in, but I do think at five years, people are going to be instead of asking, Why did you do it, they're going to be saying, how'd you do it. Tell us how you did it. And so I'm in this many messy, this really muddy, messy middle, yeah, and it's just like, you climb a little each day.

Zack Arnold: There's literally an entire book on this concept just called the messy middle. I was even going to bring up, I was going to be like, Oh, it sounds like you're living through the messy middle right now, that that's where you are as As am I? So it's very clear that you and I are speaking from the exact same playbook. However, I want to play the devil's advocate for a second, and I'm going to bring in the voice of a voice that has now ingrained itself deeply in my own mind, which is that of my fellow coach and Podcast Producer, and she challenged me just this week when I basically said the same thing or similar to what you did, that if we can just find these little, tiny changes, if we can just grow 1% better every day, change this, that or the other thing. But the counterpoint to that is, but when does it end like, at what point is it no longer about striving for a new, better version of ourself, but also being okay with where we are? And I feel like, from what I read in your book, you're you're walking the line between, I'm not broken. I am okay. I do believe in myself, but there's still something more, and just me is trying to figure this out myself, like what? Because I'm very much of the optimization mindset. It can always be better. It can always grow, breaking into small pieces. But then to what end, that's kind of the the journey that I'm on, and many of the people that I work with are on as well. So how do you walk the line between, I always want to improve and get 1% better versus, but do I need to and is, is, can't I just be okay with where I am? Now, I don't have the answer to this at all, and I'm not expecting you to I'm just trying to figure it the hell out.

Sandy Zimmerman: Yeah, well, a couple thoughts on that when you were saying it that I had is it's so funny how you can replay things in your head that people have said to you in the past. And my high school coach, Coach Kane, one thing that he said to me that was really powerful in high school, because he knew he could see that no one was going to outwork me. One thing that I learned really early in life is that no one was coming to save me. Yeah, I had a horrible childhood, and no one's coming to save me. And so my go to has always been, you just outwork everybody. You put in all that time, all that effort. And for me, it worked, right? I had tons of success in sports and athletics because of it. And I put in the time, and I put in the work, and I literally crazy obsessed to do it. And I remember the wisdom of my coach, though, because he came over and he could see that man, I was grinding. I mean, school come early shoot around lunchtime, I'll have time to visit with people. I'm going to eat my lunch and go shoot after school. Anybody want to play? I'm showing up to play. But he said to me something that I've always really remembered, because I do want to continually grow, like looking at that video earlier in this podcast, I think, God, I'm really proud of that, because I've grown even in the three years that have spanned between that video and now, and I hope that in another three years that I will still be able to look at this one and go, Wow, you've grown even from that moment. But what Coach said to me was this, he said, Sandy, be happy, but not satisfied. And when I think about that, those words to me, it was like, I do really need to enjoy the moment and where my feet are right now, to be here where my feet are, and enjoy this moment. I've worked hard to be where I'm at and to find the joy in that journey. But also, there's a little part like, but don't, don't be satisfied like this. In it for you, but enjoy it and be happy here, and be where your feet are, but continue to learn and grow. And I and I just, I think of that so often, and that wisdom in everything, in everything, like Be Where Your Feet Are, Be Where Your Feet are. But that doesn't mean that you can't continually learn and grow like I feel like to the day I die, I hope that I'm continuing to learn and evolve and grow. I don't see it as a finish line like, oh, okay, well, I got to here. Got the book that I'm speaking now. I can just coast like that to me when I think of people that are in this real, comfortable life, and it was part of the reason in that podcast. The minute I said teaching was comfortable, I knew I was like, Oh crap, I've gotta switch gears. I was comfortable, and I knew I had to switch gears at that point. So I don't think, I think people that live in comfort that to me, I'm like, that's a slow death. That's just a slow death to live in comfort. And so I remember those words from Coach Kane of be happy, but don't be satisfied. And I try to really apply that in everything I do, whether it's my hat as a speaker, as a basketball coach, as a mom, as a friend, like Be Where Your Feet Are, but just continue to learn and grow and evolve as you do it. And the other thought I had Zack was so funny, because last week in my meditations on the mountains,

Zack Arnold: I love how you put in an air quotes, by the way.

Sandy Zimmerman: Well, you know, I call it meditation with air quotes, because it is not anything like people would say is meditation. So I'm not even clear if you I'm allowed to call it meditation, but it works for me to be in the middle of the mountains. I it is absolute silence, quiet, no one, except for my two dogs, no people. That's just something for me that gives me clarity. It's a place where I can just stand and look at a view and just listen. And so I'm in my I'm going to say meditation on the mountain, and I get this visual, this picture of like a pie chart. And in the pie chart, because I I looked at it, and I thought, okay, here we are in basketball. We're in really the heart of the season, where this is a huge weekend for us, playing in the Final Four. And I look at this pie chart, and because I was kind of beating myself up before I went up into the mountains that morning, feeling like you're not doing enough with your speaking, you're not doing enough. And so I look at this pie chart, and I just have this visual where right now, because we're in the heart of basketball, that part of the pie is bigger. And then there are some things that are non negotiable. Me going in the mountains with the dogs, that is for me. It's for the dogs. It's like my mental health. That's a non negotiable piece of the pie, right? And and so my speaking that part of the pie at this very moment isn't as big, maybe, and to be at peace with that, but I'm such a like, you gotta press you gotta move it forward. You gotta, you know, and I'm just so driven in that way that I was like, beating myself up, going, God, you didn't spend that much time on your speaking part. And I'm beating myself up. And in this pie chart, I looked at it, it was like, I could visually just see it on all the different colors, and how some were bigger than others, and and it just really hit me of like, Sandy, what would you take away in order to make speaking bigger right now? Are you going to coach and put less into that? You got playoffs coming on Saturday? Are you not going to go in the woods and have your mental health day, part of your day? Are you going to take away from that? And so it was really for me, giving myself blessing permission, whatever that is. But it was such an incredible moment of like Sandy, it's okay to not be pedal to the metal in every single area of your life at times. And right now, this is how much time and energy you have, and here's where it's going. Now, once we finish that basketball season, May that one really shrink Absolutely, may the speaking one be really big at that moment. But I think sometimes, if you are really driven, it's hard to accept that, and that, for me, was such a pivotal moment standing on that mountain, thinking that's true. I cannot human. It is not humanly possible to be pedal of the metal in every single area of my life. And right now, what needs my attention, right is this. And then here are the things that are non negotiable. I'm not going to make the pie smaller and not see my kids and spend time with them, you know? And so there's all these things that were non negotiable. And right now, am I pouring in as much time and effort as I would like to with the speaking, no, it's a little bit smaller, but it's, it's kind of that season. And when basketball is over, then that will open up. And for me, it was crazy, because as I accepted that, that. Is when I was like, okay, it's okay. I can't kill myself over this. There's one me. I have so much time and effort. And what was so funny is I thought, It's okay. I'm not moving the needle as much as I would like or as fast as I would like in that area. And I literally get home and there's an email in my inbox going, Hey, we're looking for a speaker for this event. And I think, oh, Sandy, you freak out, and you think you're not doing enough, and then it's like, Here you go. You're on the right track. You're doing okay. And I think for me, I needed to hear that, and that's where, if you're not whatever meditation works for you, and you are not getting in tune with your thoughts, your fears, you know what you're excited about, what your purpose and passion is, you've gotta take time to do that. And it doesn't take much. It doesn't take much, but to just really be in tune and have those moments. I think that's been a huge game changer, to slow down, to unplug, whatever that is for you, maybe your traditional, you know, meditation, but to really, if I had advice for people, that would be one that I think is such a game changer, is you got to know yourself. You have to have clarity. And have those moments where it's still in quiet. It's so easy to be plugged in here and then plugged in here and plugged in here and plugged in here and not and I just find such it's funny because part of me is an extrovert, and then part of me is such an introvert, and I just love time by myself. It is where I get clarity, it's where I get peace, it's where I know what I want to do next. And so I really would that would be such a piece that I would say to other people is, schedule it in, put it in your planner, not I hope I have time to sit and just be with my thoughts and get clarity, like literally, put it in there so and start little you know, even if it's just hey, three minutes, I'm going to sit for three minutes, or I'm going to be in the woods for three minutes and just be with myself and my thoughts and really get to know me, because I feel like in the busyness, sometimes we don't and start there, but that's a non negotiable too. So that's a piece of the pie that I'm like, that's not going anywhere. That's a non negotiable So, and it's important to me, and I think it's been a huge part of my journey and growth.

Zack Arnold: Wow, I don't even know where to start with. Just how many knowledge bombs were just dropped in this conversation. Other than I'm probably gonna have to extract that audio file and just play it for myself about three times a day, because I, too, am very much of the mind that I should be able to do all these things, and I should be able to do all of them now. And what is wrong with me that I'm not doing the now? I should be able to maintain my career in Hollywood while also building a coaching business, but I also should be writing my book right now and developing my speaking career, and of course, I'll be present for my family, and it's just not possible that this is something that I talk about, have a year long mastermind program, and we talk about this concept of spinning too many plates, right? All these plates that we got to spin, and you have to decide, like you said, what are the non negotiable plates? Right? And it's a matter of, I can't be doing all the things all at once. So, and by the way, what you were talking about is very much meditation you have by permission to remove the air quotes. It doesn't have to be lotus position. Like it's a great it's a great way to do it, but it's not the only way to do it. And any I would my my fellow coach, Debbie, would be much better at defining it than me, but I feel like meditation is anytime you're allowing yourself space with your thoughts. It's not elimination of thoughts. It's not I've eliminated all the thoughts, and it's this blue sky in my mind with no clouds. It's I'm being okay with recognizing the thoughts and knowing they're just thoughts. They're not me, and starting a conversation with them. And if it takes you being in the mountains with your mountains with your dogs, that, to me, is completely and totally meditation. But I'm I'm going to share the first thing that came to my mind when you were talking about this idea of trying to do it all at once. And really, for me, it's not a pie chart. For me, it's literal time blocks on a calendar, like I block everything out, but this is where you may end up putting on your coach hat for a moment. This goes back to the continuing, ongoing threat of both of our ninja journeys. So if I remember correctly, I think we recorded in 2021 and I think that I told you where you had talked about with your story of ninja. You had two years in a row. You went to the second obstacle, you failed, and then you had an injury in between. And if I remember correctly where I was in, my story is that I had fallen once, but I'd fallen on the first obstacle, and I had gotten called back and I was doing it the second time. Guess what happened? I fell on the first obstacle, oh, again, in the exact same way, such that if I had not been wearing different shirts, you would think it was the same clip. Oh, the first year was I had no idea what I was getting into. It was complete brain freeze, like you spent your entire life in competition. You've got a crowd, you've got the lights. I've never been in that kind of a position, but. Four, and my nervous system said, right? And I distinctly remember looking I was up at the starting line. And as you know, they're like, Oh, we want you to talk to the camera and now come over here. Like, okay, 321, going, like, which foot is my right foot I'm supposed to go off with? Like, I just completely froze, right? So I spent an entire year both working on how to better manage my nervous system, how to regulate, you know, like, literally doing, you know, certain kinds of breathing to lower the heart rate. And had really spent a lot of time both on managing the nerves, but also physically making sure that my positioning was better. I had the right footwork, I knew a chance to grab, like, the whole thing right, literally working with one of the best in the world, Jesse Graff, drilling it over and over and over and over and over, and it was the same goddamn thing that happened twice. So if there's anybody that can relate to you on a very visceral level of how that felt, it's me. But wait, there's more. This is where you and I, the stories are almost uncanny. So the next season, I did apply again saying Third time's a char charm, right? I literally said at the beginning of my video, right, that I didn't come this far just to come this far. Didn't get the call. And it was the the season that they cut the number of people in half, and they started doing, like, the dual semi finals, and the format changed. So it went from, I think they called like, 600 to three or 400 or something, right? So I didn't get the call, which was fine, but I developed a relationship with Adam Sheldon, and I lived 10 minutes from the warehouse where they test all the obstacles. And he basically said, here's the whole calendar. You come and test whenever you want. You come to Universal Studios. I'd love to have you. I'm like, Holy shit, this is even better than getting the call on the show, because I didn't really care about the camera and everything else, like, I just want to get really good at this, and I want to say I did it, right? So the first day I go to show up, I did. I think they were doing the fifth obstacle on the preliminary course, which is really stinking hard, right upper body. Yeah, they're really hard. So I got I did it twice. Failed both times. I'm like, This is awesome. I was having so much fun. But then they set up the fourth obstacle, and I did it once and again, I got much further than I thought, and even Adam was like, Holy shit, that was pretty good. Like, he just expects I'm gonna come and I'm gonna fumble. And he's like, you're good for like, when we have, like, the 60 and 70 year olds, you're a good tester for that, right? So I went through it, and it was great. Then the next morning, I woke up and my left arm didn't work anymore. I tore my bicep tendon right here, and I couldn't lift my arm past here, and I couldn't use my arm for like, three months. So it was the only time I got to test when I had a month's calendar to plan the obstacles and like, you gotta be shitting me. And then from there, so many things started to devolve in the industry. We had strikes. There were work stoppages. All of a sudden, you know, the job that I had lined up disappeared. Then both of my parents health started to deteriorate rapidly. Both of my parents got dementia at the exact same time. Had to eventually put them both in a home. Since then, my father has passed. So I'm at this point right now where I have so many things that have derailed me, that the the identity that I have of I'm somebody that's a part of the ninja community, or I want to try again is just like, Why? Why in the world would I even try this again? And I'm having a really, really hard time getting past this and getting to the point where I can say, get back on the horse, like, go back and do it. I know all the right people. I have access to everything that I need. I just can't get myself to do it because of so many failures and setbacks from the guy that talks about failures and setbacks and learning experiences. But you know that feeling of I have failed twice? It's on camera, and millions of people have seen me fail twice. Luckily, they have not aired either of them, which is great. I know the editors, so they have sent me all the raw footage and all the camera angles so I can watch it over and over, but nobody's actually seen it. But between that and the injury and everything else, I'm just there's it's almost like this is a reversal of our previous conversation. The intuition says you gotta try one more time. It's there. You put in so much work. I just don't want to. So this is where I think it comes down to. There's a fine line between fear and intuition, and right now, I'm living right on that line where i The intuition is something tells me, give it one more shot. The fear is, Are you effing crazy? Do you realize what you put your body through for the five years you were training like I've got a tear in my, you know, shoulder cartilage now. I've got the bicep tear. I've got all kinds of issues that have happened. And there's just a part of me that's like, do I really want to put myself through that again? But then there's the goddamn intuition that says you gotta try one more time. And I'm just stuck between that line of fear and intuition. If there's no question, I just this is, this is where I am, and I know, I know you empathize.

Sandy Zimmerman: Well, what comes up for me is I. Do you want to in a year from now, or two years from now, five years from now, go what if? Like? Can you imagine living with that, that, to me, is always, for me, felt like that would be the most horrible thing to live with, is to live with a what if. And I mean, if you have clarity that that's where you're supposed to be and that's what you're supposed to be doing. For me, I think it's all going to work out. It may not work out exactly how you pictured it. Want it, vision, vision, it, but it's all going it's probably going to turn out even better than you imagined. And I've felt like that so many times in my life, where, you know, it may seem like, God, this is not working now. This is not, you know what I envisioned it, and it actually ends up turning out even better than I had imagined. And for me, like I'm thinking back on my aw journey and when I first started, I did not realize that I had so much baggage, scars and triggers to work through. At that point, I had just buried them so deep. And for me, functioning as a teacher and being impactful with kids, I had no triggers or issues there. I loved my students, I invested in them. I saw potential in them and and and got to see them grow, but it now looking back. So we never know what life looks like when it's like right in the moment, but a lot of times when you know, when you can zoom out and it's like, oh, that's why that worked out perfectly. So that first year, if I had succeeded, I was not in a place with my journey of growth in my confidence and my courage to share my story. So had I hit the buzzer that first year, it's like, yeah, it would have been a cool story first mom, you know, but it never would have had the impact that it had in giving me those five years to learn, to grow. What are the lessons? You know? How many stories I share now on stages about the journey that I never would have had if I just go, hey everybody, I went on American Ninja Warrior hit a buzz at the first try. Like it's not as great of a story. But now I look and I go, Oh, my goodness. This story is one of following your gut and your intuition, and, you know, going out there, putting yourself out there, failing and getting up and failing and getting up, but seeing it as learning and not failing, and then just trusting your gut, like so many lessons that went into that whole journey where, whoa, first of all, I didn't have the courage and confidence to even share the story. So had I hit a buzzer that first year, it would have just been like, Oh, my mom hit a buzzer. And that really would have been it. I wouldn't have been able to do the interviews. I didn't have the courage and confidence that and I would have never shared any of my stories. But, but because it took me five years, what was so crazy is that year where I hit the buzzer was the first year, honestly, where I didn't even think about the results. I was like, I it doesn't even at this point matter what I do. If I go out on the first obstacle, I go out on the second one again, like, I'm not going to like it. I'm a competitor. It's going to bug me and it's going to sting, but it's really about my journey and my growth and my learning, and this journey, I have become a whole new person. It's been like a mental makeover. And really that became what it was about, where the first two seasons, when I failed early, all I could think about was, was hitting that buzzer, finishing that course, and it was so funny when I finally did hit the buzzer. Was the year where I didn't think about the result. It was just I was wearing my feet were and I knew that that was where it was supposed to be. And I also knew that I'm doing a sport where the failure rate is pretty much 100% at some point. But I also knew without a doubt that I was going to learn and grow from the experience, whether I went out on the first obstacle or I hit a buzzer. And it was so funny, because that was the year that I finished the course and hit the buzzer, my first buzzer, and I thought, holy cow. The timing of this. Now I have these stories and this journey to share with people, because most people can more relate to that than someone going to hit a buzzer their first try. But also I had done so much work in me that I was at a point where I had the courage and confidence to share my stories and that my stories could impact lives, because I feel like I've been being asked since college to share my story, and I have served so many years like no way it's embarrassing. People will run people will judge me. People won't want to be friends with me. They won't want their kids to be friends with my kids. I literally had those thoughts, and so I wasn't in a place. Where had I had that success, it would have had the impact. So now, zooming out, I look at it, it's like, I literally. I'm like, Thank God I did not hit the buzzer that first year, because it wouldn't have had the impact. And I wouldn't have had the stories that I've been able to share now that I have had it take me that long, and now all these lessons that I've had, and I was in a place where I could share it. So I think of you, and I think, gosh, do you want to sit there in in a year and go, What if I wonder regret? Will you re and I always ask people this when they're when they're at this crossroad, do you think you'd regret doing it? Do you think you'd regret not doing it? And when you ask yourself that question, what's the next step, if you go into your mountaintop meditation, whatever that is for you, What? What? What's the clarity? What seems real clear for you when you think about it,

Zack Arnold: The many thoughts come to mind. I think that the two questions that I'm battling with that are saying exactly what you're saying in a slightly different way, is when it comes specifically to the Ninja Warrior story, the two questions constantly are, is the story over, or are all these chapters and what's going to be a great story? And again, without hindsight when you're in it, I partially have control over that question. I can choose, well, I guess this is the end of the story, and it didn't work out the way that I wanted it to. Or in what I used to say, I was very much in the mindset that whenever there was some failure or setback, my immediate response is, oh, this is going to make the story even better when I succeed, right? But then I just continually got pummeled over and over and over. So now the fear is, but what if it happens again? Can I live with myself going on the show three times and falling on the first obstacle three times in a row? That's the fear. If we're gonna really get real right now, it's not, I have to go back and train again, and it's hard. It's a lot of work. Like, yeah, I'm six, seven years older than when I decided to start this the last time. So I'm going to have to approach training with a different volume and a different intensity, because my body just I'm feeling those five years of training like I am feeling them right now, right? But it's not that I've got to work hard again. I've got to go back to the gym. I gotta sweat, I gotta climb ropes, like a lot of that really excites me, really. And I'm just realizing this now, this isn't something that it's just kind of coming to me in this conversation. The fear is, I don't know if I can live with it happening a third time. That's That's what I'm afraid of. Everything else I'm not afraid of. It's if like to go through all of it again and to have a third clip that looks the same, I just, I don't know if I can process that. That's where I'm stuck right now.

Sandy Zimmerman: I guess I my default is always like, what if it all works out, and even if you do fail. I mean, is that really what this is about? For you?

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I mean, it hasn't been. I've always said that for me, it's not, it's not I want to get on TV or I want to conquer ninja warrior like I'm, I'm not the kind of athlete that is looking at. I'm going to hit multiple buzzers. Like, what does it take to get to Vegas like I'm, I'm very well aware my place is within the sport, given what I can give to it with family and everything else like so for me, it's always been about the journey being a part of it, but the really important part for me is ultimately having the featured story to bring awareness of the work that I'm doing to help those overcome their own challenges, specifically the story that I have of you and I talked about the the documentary film that I did about the first quadriplegic that became a licensed scuba diver, finding a platform to bring awareness to those with disabilities and overcoming challenges, that's always been the core why to all of this. So I think that, I think what I need to do is what you've already said multiple times. I need to stop asking, What if I fail, and instead I need to ask, What if I succeed? I think, I think that's where I'm stuck, because it continually is the vision of, I can't have a third clip of me falling on the first obstacle. What if that doesn't happen? Right? That's, I think that's the part that I need to get better at reframing and focusing on, because that's, that's where I've been stuck for, like, a year and a half. Because for a year ago, there was no world in which I was training for Ninja Warrior. So that's why I thought of it. When you brought up the pie chart, I'm like, there is no math that maths. That's gonna math together with me having the time to be ninja warrior training when I'm managing my parents health and, you know, the industry is falling apart. And I've got parents like, I've got my family. I've got kids like, there was no part of me. It's like, well, you really should be training for ninja right now, but I'm back in that space. It's like, I could be doing this again. And there's it's not, it's not my calendar that's getting in the way right now. It's that deep seated emotional fear, and you've just helped me realize what it is.

Sandy Zimmerman: Another thought with that is that physic. Exactly, can you do the first obstacle?

Zack Arnold: Oh, no, question. If that's the thing that drives me so crazy, I have so much video of me at traverse, over and over and over and over, and both Jesse and the the other friend of mine Wes who's been training with me for years, like, Oh, you got this in the bag. Like, all the little things that I had worked out that I was struggling with, the footwork, the timing, the speed, the hand placement, nailed all of it. That was great. That's the thing that that really frustrates me the most, is I know I'm capable of it so much so that the first time I tested obstacles, way before I ever got the call on the show, I did the shrinking steps, no problem with three years less training.

Sandy Zimmerman: Yeah, that's what frustrates me so much. Like athletes, when they get nervous, I'll ask them this question, like this is, this is what I want you to I'll tell them, This is what I want you to ask yourself, if you're feeling that anxiety, if you're feeling nervous about it, first ask yourself, what's being asked of me. And then the second question is, do I have the skills necessary to do that? And if you can answer yes to those, then here we go. So what if this journey, this next year before filming, is one of what mental tools do I need? Because I know I have the physical skills to do it, and is that part of your story? When you share this of that you know you're talking about, what you want your message to be, well, there's a lot of parallel there of physically, you physically, you know you can do it. So, so what mental skills could you work on this next year to help you do what you know you can physically do? And I just, I'm curious to see if that is part of your journey. I work with a mental performance coach, and I'll tell you what it's what been such an incredible learning journey, too, there in, in just how I approach athletics. And I think, you know, when I was younger, I was just so much quicker and stronger than all the other girls. I had a lot of success. So I didn't really have a lot of those battles, because I was so successful, and things came pretty easy, and then you get on Ninja Warrior, and it's like, this is such a hard sport, but it's what I love about it is because you're going to have growth when things are hard, and I've had to go back and like, wow, I'm missing some mental skills. There are so many different mental skills that you can use that can really help you, you know, perform your best. And what's cool is all those, what's amazing, all those skills that I've learned to perform on those massive stages. Guess what? They've led to speaking on massive stages. I'm like, Oh my gosh, this was like, preparing me. Being on the show was preparing me. I didn't know it at the time. I just thought, hey, this would be inspiring for my students. Why don't I go try this crazy show that I look back and I'm like, holy cow. It was like, it was all preparing me, because all these skills that I learned to perform under pressure, to perform with cameras, fog, millions people are going to see this run and to be able to focus and do what you need to do, it's like, oh my gosh, I get on a stage and I have those skills that have all trickled over so that that's something I'm just kind of curious about. Is there a mental skill? Is that that you could, you know, dive into that this next year, because physically, you can do it,

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and it's answering the question the mental skill. I'm sure there are skills, and I'm not sure what all of them are yet, and that could be something you could help me identify, you know, where I could find those resources. But what I want to do is, I want to, I want to take this, what we're talking about right now, and bring it into the larger conversation. For anybody that's thinking, I'm not interested in American Ninja Warrior. I'm not interested in being a public speaker. The theme of this conversation is, when you choose to do these hard things in the process of these hard things, you learn more about yourself, you learn more about these are the areas that I need to fix. Oh, there's actually I'm way stronger at this than I ever thought. I'm a more confident person, or whatever it might be. And what I've learned, which directly correlates to both of the these failures on the course, is I realized, and it's very hard to say this out loud, especially given the fact that I do podcasting and coaching I want to speak. I've learned that I have debilitating performance anxiety, and it has brought me back to all kinds of memories from childhood. And I can remember this so distinctly that when I was I loved baseball. When I was a kid, I played baseball, Little League, all like the all the levels, all the way until high school, and then when I got to high school, in practice, unstoppable, like I would hit everything right? Then all of a sudden, I'm up to bat during the the actual game, strike out every single time. Couldn't hit a ball to save my life. And partially, is because I had horrible coaches that were just, frankly, not good people, and they were like, old school boot campers, right? It's like, come on. You got mad, like just yelling. There was no amount of growth or recognizing it. But I realized that this is a recurring theme for me, that in a practice situation, I nail it. Whatever it is that I'm doing, take me to traverse. I've got all the videos to show I'm doing all kinds of crazy shit at traverse. Put me in front of the first. Obstacle with lights on me and expectations, I crumble to the ground. So that's still a journey that I'm on. But the point I bring it up, the reason I'm bringing it up is because I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't chosen to do the hard thing and put myself in this place of discomfort. And even if I were to say I'm done, I'm not going to go back like you talked about, I'm a completely different person than the day I watched TV and said, That looks fun. I should try that. Like I don't know that person anymore. So there's that part of me that you know, the top, high performer that we've been talking about, that's like, Yeah, but you haven't finished the job. But then I look at so many things that I've learned, the relationships that I built like totally different person. I would never take any of it back, even if, if I had to time travel seven years ago and say, Here's exactly what's going to happen if you take on this journey, still would have done it right, because I've learned so much about myself and all of these shortcomings. But again, it's just, it's that, it's that fear and having to reframe from what if I fail, to, yeah, but what if you succeed? Yeah, right, yeah. So, having said all that, now you've returned the favor to me, so I put you on the hot seat. Now I get to be on the hot seat. But, you know, I think, I think the seed has probably been planted that, you know, maybe it's time to give it one last shot. Yeah. So

Sandy Zimmerman: I think I appreciate very much, even even hearing you describe yourself. Of like, I nail it in practice, but I fail in the actual competition. Like, that's a whole reframing that can happen right there. And is that is really powerful to switch that flip or flip that switch and and have that work for you. And then the other thought, so, if you watch back some of my runs on there, one thing that I have really tried to do is have a performance statement, and it is one that I use when I do American Ninja Warrior now, it's one that I use when I go off, you know, onto a big stage, or, honestly, even little stages, because I I really want to bring my best. I don't care if it's a room of 20 people or there's a room of 2000 people when I'm talking, I want to to really bring my best for them and impact lives. But I get that kind of nervous, you know, feeling every single time, even now, even doing it as much as I've done it, even on American enjoy. I've been on nine seasons now, done almost every single special they have for Women's Championship, couples, champion families. I mean, I've been on all of them. And you would think after a while that you would not get that feeling, but you just it's still there. But I think for me, when I get up there, if you watch, read my lips sometimes, but my performance statement is, Sandy, you were born for this. And it like I go from being in that, oh my gosh. What if I fail? What if I, you know, look stupid out here, if I get to that point where I'm like, Sandy, you were born for this. And I just, I can't tell you, I can even just feel it, my body, my head lifts up, my shoulders go back, my chest goes out, and it's like, let's go. It's go time. And so little skills like that, you know, can really help. And I would be curious of what your journey might be on the mental performance side of of sports, but it'll trickle over into everything. Yeah, I think it can be a game changer for you and become part of your story and how you help people.

Zack Arnold: No, I love all that, and I can't wait to come back and look at this clip in two to three years and say, Oh my God. What was he thinking? Who did it? Well, that was crazy, right? So I'm, I'm hoping we can go back and look at this in the, you know, 234, years, and who knows where your story is going to be at that time? Yeah, right. But needless to say, I want to be respectful of your time and just thank you for not only doing this once, but now doing it a second time, sharing your story. And I just, I cannot reiterate enough how much fun it's been watching this journey that you're on, even if you're stuck in the messy middle. It's still fun as hell to watch very inspirational and for anybody else that is listening or watching today, if they want to learn more about you, connect with your work, and more specifically, if they're interested in buying your book, where's the best place to send people?

Sandy Zimmerman: So you can find my book on Amazon, but if you would like an autographed copy, go to my website. It's Sandy zimmerman.co and I can sign that and mail it out to you, and you can order right from there. So either one. But I appreciate the love and support people had with the book. I want to get it in people's hands. I I know why I wrote it, and I know that it's going to impact lives, and I want to get it in as many hands as I can. So yeah, I appreciate you helping spread the word, and thank you for having me on a second time. I always feel like I learn and grow so much from you, so much wisdom that I take with me, and it really has been a catalyst our first podcast, and I'm excited to. See after this one kind of where we both go.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I appreciate that. And just know that that the offer stands. When you said, if you're looking for others to help you through the speaking journey, marketing, like all that entrepreneurship journey, know that I am an email away if you got questions, if you're stuck on something that's an area where I have much more confidence about that than the stupid floating and shrinking steps. Don't get me started on the shrinking steps. When it comes to entrepreneur marketing stuff, I feel pretty good. So if you ever get stuck with it, I would love to be able to help you out. So, all right, awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you.

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