Mauro Guillén is a Professor of Management and Vice Dean for the MBA for Executives Program at Wharton School, an expert in global market trends and a sought-after speaker and consultant. And what caught my attention is this quote from his website which pretty much describes not only the current situation of the entertainment industry but the world at large:
“The World you know is about to end — will you be prepared for what comes next?”
This is not fear mongering but an invitation to reinvent how you plan your life and your career. Our conversation took us deep into the reasons why the world is changing so fast and why the sequential model of life we’ve been trained to live (for over 120 years now) is not only obsolete but a danger to society as well. Mauro and I talk about the important shifts that we need to take which he lays out in his book, THE PERENNIALS: The Megatrends Creating a Post Generational Society.
My previous conversation with Christina Wallace talks about future proofing on an individual level, and this conversation with Mauro broadens out to the societal level. I cannot emphasize enough how timely these conversations are in helping you diversify your life and identify who you are beyond your resume.
Mauro F. Guillén is one of the most original thinkers at the Wharton School, where he is Professor of Management and Vice Dean for the MBA for Executives Program. An expert on global market trends, he is a sought-after speaker and consultant. He combines his training as a sociologist at Yale and as a business economist in his native Spain to methodically identify and quantify the most promising opportunities at the intersection of demographic, economic, and technological developments. His online classes on Coursera and other platforms have attracted over 100,000 participants from around the world. He has won multiple teaching awards at Wharton, where his presentation on global market trends has become a permanent feature of over fifty executive education programs annually. He is the WSJ bestselling author of 2030: How Today’s Biggest Trends Will Collide and Reshape the Future of Everything.
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Zack Arnold: I am here today with Mauro Guillen, who is a best selling author. He is the Vice Dean of Wharton School, where he is the Professor of Management and he's the Vice Dean for the MBA for Executives program. He's also a sought after speaker and consultant who specializes in the intersection of demographic, economic and technological developments. And very specific to today's conversation. You're also the author of the upcoming book, The Perennials, The Megatrends Creating a Post Generational Society, where you discuss why we need to embrace a post generational mindset in order to live longer, more fulfilling lives. And Mauro, it is a tremendous pleasure to be having this conversation today.
Mauro Guillen: Well, thank you the honor is mine Zack. Thank you for inviting me,
Zack Arnold: You're more than welcome. And I gotta say that just in your intro alone, I feel we could probably have a 60 to 90 minute conversation, just defining all the big words, lots and lots of big words in there that we're going to be breaking down throughout the today's conversation. And really, the narrative thread that we're going to be looking at is one that I've talked about quite a bit already, which is this massive shift that we're seeing in culture in our economy in various industries, from specialization in a very linear path where you start at the bottom of a ladder, and you climb to the top, and instead everything is just discombobulated and upside down, there's no paths, and we don't understand what's going on. And you've really dug into this on a societal level. And I think you have a lot of really good ideas about how we can approach this, the place I want to start, however, I just want to dig right into the center of the wound, we're not going to sugarcoat this, and we're not going to slowly tiptoe into it. I want to start with a quote that you have on your website, which is that the world as you know, it is about to end, will you be prepared for what comes next. It's quite the bold statement to begin today's conversation with you want to help me unpack that?
Mauro Guillen: Well, I think it is no secret, that there's a lot of things going on with technology, you know, robotics, artificial intelligence, the blockchain, digital money, but not just that also with global powers, and, you know, the balance between the United States and China and other countries around the world. And at the same time, we are seeing the full effects now of the demographic transition, meaning the decline in fertility and the fact that we live in longer. And if that weren't enough, then we also see that weather patterns have been disrupted. And we have more frequent floods, and more frequent hurricanes have more intensity. So climate change is also kicking in. So you know, we are human beings, we tend to be creatures of habit. And my point is that we need to change, because the only possible response to change is change itself.
Zack Arnold: That's a very bold way to look at it, the only response to change is change itself. I have had an in depth conversation with Brad Stolberg, recently, and I'm gonna put a link in the show notes, anybody listening, his book is called Master of change. And we talked for 90 minutes about the mindset of how we individually approach change and all the adversity that comes with it in the identity associations that we have with it. So I don't want anybody to think that I'm still skipping over this topic. But there's so many other areas where I feel that you can be tremendously valuable to this conversation. And knowing that we need to change ourselves to manage the change is something that I've talked about extensively. And I'm more than welcome to do with you, as well. But what I really want to understand is, how our system is constructed, and where it's broken. And I want you to start by breaking down just some of these basic terminology that you have just in the title of your book alone. We have this term perennial. And then we have this idea of a post generational society break these down into much simpler terms for all of us.
Mauro Guillen: Absolutely. So perennials are people who don't think or act their age. So they don't feel constrained by the stereotypes that you should only be learning or learning when you're young. And use them should be working after you learn. And then at some point, you should retire. And the other conventional thing is that attached to these is that that hey, people who belong to different generations then have different lifestyles, and they shouldn't be approaching the world in different than life in different ways. And I rebel against that I think we have to abandon or to fight back. There's this tyranny of age that we're only supposed to do certain things at a given age. And I think this is purely a construction. This is something that we're imagining, there are biological limits as to what we can do at different ages. But hey, we should be lifelong learners, we should be able to switch careers, we should be able to enjoy retirement in a completely different way than it is, you know, structure today. So that's the purpose of this book.
Zack Arnold: So something tells me you and I have only talked for about maybe, you know, seven to eight minutes, but just by the look on your face and the energy that you put forward. My guess is you identify is about 25 years old, how far off am I
Mauro Guillen: I am actually 23 years old
Zack Arnold: Twenty-three years old, sorry, I didn't mean to over age you.
Mauro Guillen: Times 2.3 maybe. I'm 58. And so I feel as young as ever, and I'm actually I have even more projects and more plans for the near future, professionally, but also family wise than I did 10 or 20, or 30 years ago, I think, you know, we live longer. But sadly, that's not the only thing we also stay healthy much longer than in the past. So we stay, we remain in very good physical and mental shape. And it's a pity not to make the most of our lives. And you know, increasingly, people are going back to school at age 60, or 70. Increasingly, people what they're doing is, you know, switching careers, they're aiming at new things. They want to essentially find fulfillment in life. And we shouldn't be constrained by age. I think that's the key.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, one of the lessons that I've learned as I've grown older, and I am very conscious, and I'd say as I get old, because I've I've been saying for years that getting older is inevitable, choosing to get old, right? That's a choice. And that's a mindset. And like I said, I can just see on your face and your energy, that mindset pervades in the way that you are presenting yourself to the world, which I absolutely love. Because of if I had this image in my mind on paper, of well, you know, Vice Dean of Wharton Business School, and he's done this, that and the other thing and you just picture somebody in a suit and tie and just very formal and immediately come out what I love about this, anybody that's not watching this on video, you're showing up in like a white t shirt. You're the image of you, you're white, though it has Okay, well if you've got a design on it, right. But what I love about this is that the image that I will construct from who you are on paper, and who I see here are two completely different things, which really shows me that you practice what you preach as far as having that perennial mind.
Mauro Guillen: Oh absolutely absolutely. I can wear a suit and I frequently wear a suit. But I can also be formal like everybody else. And I think today we agreed that it would be better to actually project this image of informality.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I can tell you right off the bat with anybody listening to this, if they visually saw the image of you and the suit and tie, they say, I don't think this episode is for me. Right? So I just think this is the perfect fit. So what I want a little bit of help breaking down for the audience, and just for myself, is I've been talking a lot about the transition that our society is making from specialization, back to generalization and the way that the industrial revolution has really kind of set a very specific path for us. And that path is completely breaking down. But from your perspective, could you break down the way that the world and society in our careers have been constructed from a generational perspective, so we really understand the way that things were. So we can then apply this perennial mindset going forward? So how do we break down where we are now?
Mauro Guillen: Well, we've been in the same place for 120 years, and as you just said, that model that way of living our lives, is becoming very obsolete. So the model is essentially that you put all of the learning at an early age, and you better learn everything that you need for the rest of your life, because otherwise, you've missed your opportunity to learn. And then you work. And, you know, we've designed jobs in such a way that they're boring, and we really don't want to work. But we're promised that golden moment in which we will retire and everything will be great. And of course, for most people, retirement is a disappointment. Because they are, you know, cut loose from their social contacts. And also because, you know, people get bored, and they feel lonely, and so on and so forth. And, you know, the other thing is that at work, the normal thing would be that we will have a boss who is older than we are. And we will have mentors who are also older than we are. And there's no you know, allowance there for different generations really working together and having similar goals and similar aspirations. We have been very, very intent on essentially compartmentalizing us into generations, which I think are pure inventions, pure creations on our minds. And we're supposed to behave like you know, a millennial you were born during any given period, or like a baby boomer, and so on and so forth. And so, the book, My argument is all about breaking with all of those stereotypes, approaching life in a completely different way, in a way that I think is going to be more satisfying, and will lead to, you know, happiness as opposed to where we have now a lot of people are frustrated, as you know, mental illness is on the increase, especially among young people. So, you know, there's a better way of living our lives.
Zack Arnold: Yeah and nowhere is it more apparent and would take about 15 minutes to see this generational divide and social media, dear Lord, right. You can you can just see the divide in any of the Facebook groups or anywhere you might frequent. Just like yeah, okay, Boomer versus our, you know, Gen Z, they don't understand how to work and it's just, we're in these little tiny compartments where we define ourselves by this generation. But there's so many things about us that are different and varied and unique kind of this event. And diagram of the intersection of all of our experiences and skills. And like you said, we just assume, well, I'm the older, more seasoned, more experienced mentor, and you still have a lot to learn. And this, this drives me absolutely crazy. It's something that I talked about with Eduardo desenio, talking about his book, where he breaks down the learning mindset versus the performance mindset was, which is an extension of Carol Dweck is fixed and growth mindsets. And this idea that you're learning, learn, learn, learn, learn, and then maybe not when you graduate, you're still allowed to learn for, I don't know, 234 years, but no, now you just got to perform at a high level for the rest of your life. And you're proposing that we have different cycles, where it's learn, do learn, do so kind of break down what this what this newer model looks like. So we can break free from these generational stereotypes,
Mauro Guillen: Exactly these fixed very rigid generational categories, and we can focus on our individuality. And we opened up a new universe of opportunities for a lot of people. And by the way, I didn't write this book to make successful people even more successful, I really wrote this book for people who want to improve, but also for people who right now under the existing model are completely sidelined. Think about women, and how difficult it is for them to follow those stages in life. Because you see that what I call the sequential model of life was designed for men and not for women. And think about high school dropouts. Think about teenage mothers think about people who are substance abusers, but now they're recovering, they at some point made the wrong decision, or they took the wrong turn, or they were unlucky. And it is very hard for them to recover. For example, teenage mothers, when you think about them, only 2% graduate from college, only 2%, we don't have systems in place to allow those people who, for whatever reason, you know, had a baby too early in life, to recover from that setback. So we need to really change the way in which we've restructured our lives in order to give everybody not just the successful people better opportunities.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and there's a buzzword that you said there that I think is going to be a thread that I'm going to pull for a while, which is the system's. I've talked a lot about this at an individual level, but you are deeply ingrained and have a very clear understanding of the current academic system of education that we have in this country. And I don't know what the exact listings are, according to US News and World Report, but Wharton Business School is pretty highly regarded as one of the best places in the world if you want to learn business. But I want people to better understand the system as it is now and how broken it is because I talk about this a lot. But I'm not I'm not coming from a place of expertise. I'm coming from a place of observation, you're in the system. So I want you to to help us better understand how the educational system is currently constructed. And how at least in my opinion, is completely and totally broken?
Mauro Guillen: No, absolutely. And let me engage in self criticisms here. I think at the Wharton School, we are missing out on a big opportunity, because we offer a number of degrees. And all of our degrees are defined in terms of the age group that we're targeting. So undergraduate degree, gather degree full time, but also for working professionals who tend to be a little bit older, and then for executives. And we're not allowing those different people from different generations, different ages to actually interact with one another. So we are approaching education in the wrong way, in my view, right. And, you know, it pains me. And I hope that we change, you know, soon enough to actually catch these waves, the world is moving in a different direction. And he's moving in different directions outside. We haven't talked about this. Because now with technological change, you have to be a lifelong learner, you cannot just say I'm going to learn when I'm young. And I'm going to hope that whatever I learned will last 50 years. That's not possible, because knowledge is shifting very quickly. Technology makes knowledge obsolete, obsolete much faster than in the past. And we have to constantly reinvent ourselves. So the world has changed so much has become so competitive, but also so mercurial that the old model just doesn't work is obsolete.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, this reminds me of a conversation that I had recently with my wife, who's a third grade teacher. She has been a third grade teacher for over 20 years. And we've had many a healthy debate about specifically how the current educational system is designed to just in reference to the internet, but also how it really undervalues critical thinking skills, problem solving skills, and it's still kind of in the mode of pre internet, you, you know, recite and memorize figures and what year was the Magna Carta. And my argument is always like, I don't need to know those things anymore. I have a phone that solves those. I need to learn how to solve more complex problems, how to communicate. So we've had those debates for years that sets the table for Imagine me sitting down and introducing my wife to chat GPT. She's not very technological. As far as her world of being a third grade teacher. She's the one that her faculty and her peers come to like, hey, how do I build a really cool slideshow presentation and she's worked with Sandra Kaplan, who's one of the world's experts with gifted and talented At education, but my wife's not really tied into the cutting edge of technology. And I sat her down with Chat GPT. And she's like, I don't get it, like, let me show you something, I'm going to sit down with my daughter who's in sixth grade. And I want you to give me a couple of really simple instances of a character in a story. So we can write like a one or two page story for an assignment. She was like, well, there's a princess and a dragon named this in which name this and I just, I put all that into a prompt. And I had a write me like a two page story. And my wife was like, Whoa, that's pretty crazy. But a student can never use that, because I could tell that that's way above their, their, their intellect. And I said, and I wrote a prompt that said, now write the same thing from the perspective of a third grader. And I read it back to her, and she's like, Oh, my God, like, she just she could see the world change in front of her. And the next thing that I say to her is what I want you to really pull on, I said, the things that you're teaching, your students now in third grade, are going to be totally completely useless by the time they graduate high school. Am I totally wrong?
Mauro Guillen: No. And you see, that is the fundamental problem of the education sector, that we should be educating people for the jobs that will be in the economy, let's say in 10 years from now, right, but we don't know what those jobs are going to be. So it's a fundamental problem. And that's why I think right now, especially with all of these changes, what we need to teach our children is the ability to learn, and the ability to forget the ability to unlearn. Also, that's also important, right. And as you mentioned earlier, in passing, the ability to communicate very well, the ability to work in teams, emotional intelligence, the ability to negotiate all of those skills that we normally call social skills are really, really becoming very important. And all you need to do is just go to a Jobs website, and see the descriptions of what companies are looking for. And you will see that they're looking for people who can work in teams who have emotional intelligence, who can negotiate, and so on, and so forth. That's what they're looking for.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and the transition that I'm starting to see a lot, even in the entertainment industry, and of all the industries, the entertainment one probably moves the slowest of any of them. I always thought that was just my intuition. But I recently had Greg McKeown on the podcast. And he's done a lot of consulting for corporations all over the world. And even Steven, he told me, he's like, dude, Hollywood is the most messed up industry I've ever worked with. So I was like, Okay, I feel a little bit more vindicated. But I'm starting to very slowly see the transition from hard skills to a word that I hate, which is soft skills, like you said, communication skills, right?
Mauro Guillen: Social skills, I think social skills,
Zack Arnold: Right, the way that I look at it, that I'm basically stealing this from Simon Sinek, who's another one of the one of my kind of influencers and digital mentors, I've never connected with him, but I really I admire the work that he's doing similar to Adam Grant, who's a fellow colleague of yours, but he talks about how he hates the term soft skills. And I like the term human skills. What skills do we need those skills, right? Human skills, social skills, but there's there's nothing soft about them?
Mauro Guillen: No, no. And actually, some of them. People may think that social skills are like, something that you are given when you're being born. But it's something that you can learn, there's a science behind it, right? And we actually try to teach those things to students. And there's research about it. And there's a whole body of knowledge, backing up the pedagogy of how you help people like why are social skills, which once again, are becoming a fundamental importance in the labor market? Yeah, it's
Zack Arnold: something that I've talked about in other interviews. This is a perspective that I've had for years. And I felt that most people were not on board with this, especially a lot of colleagues that I've worked with before, but it's now becoming kind of a necessity, which is that I've never hired based on skills, or at least based on hard skills. I'm always hired based on character, I want to know, Are you the kind of person that can problem solve? Are you the kind of person that can communicate with others, or whatever it might be? I can always teach you skills, but I can't teach you character. And to me, I feel like social skills are one of those skills that they're teachable. But I'm looking for something where you have some of that, like the basis of some of those skills, then I can plug in all the rest of it. Exactly. Right. Yeah. So what I want to talk a little bit more about then, is if somebody's listening to this, and they're asking themselves, Well, geez, if all my hard skills are going to be obsolete, and at the speed that things are moving, I mean, God, it could be in six months, two years, like, like you said, nobody really knows what the future of jobs looks like. But I would venture to guess that no matter how much artificial intelligence takes over whatever, either, you know, mundane jobs, or even though the creative type jobs, these human skills are going to be the things that separate us from the machines. How do we break this down? What are the actual skills I know that this is something you talk about a lot are the skills of the future social skills is definitely an important one. But how do we get more specific?
Mauro Guillen: Well, besides the things that we've talked already about, I think we need to learn how to interact with technology. You were mentioning earlier that Chat GPT requires a skill on the part of the user you need to understand how to follow up Write with questions so that you get to where you want. And that's why I believe that, for example, you remember last summer when, or a few months ago, when the School District of New York City decided to ban Chat GPT. They were concerned about, you know, plagiarism and so on. And look, that's such a stupid decision, everybody's going to be using AI towards at work in the home for everything, right? So you're better off teaching your students how to use Chat GPT than resisting it. Right? It's really, really important to learn how to interact with machines, especially with computers these days, and students who don't have those skills by the time they graduate, they're going to have a very hard time finding a good job. So it's just the opposite, right? I'm going to tell my students when I start teaching again, in January or February, I'm going to tell them, you can use as much as UBT as you want. But you better come up with good arguments in your papers and your exam answers because I'm going to be, you know, asking you to perform at a very high level, given that you're using Chat GPT, I want them to use Chat GPT is a new tool, it's the same way that we began using Excel, right? Or began using pocket calculators some years ago, right? There was nothing wrong with them, they actually made us more productive. But chargeability now is exactly the same thing. So what I would urge people is to learn, as we were mentioning earlier, the ability to learn, that's the capability that everybody has to have, how do you acquire that? Well, number one is half facility with numbers, be comfortable managing numbers and abstract concepts, right? There's a number of subjects that actually prepare you for that. You can take math, or you can take physics, or you can take biology, all of those things. Second is learn how to read efficiently and how to write a good writer is also a good learner. Right? And by all means, develop your reading skills. Because it's a fundamental importance good learner are good learners are good readers. So those are the kinds of things that our students should be learning.
Zack Arnold: It's funny because I had this crazy flashback to something that I haven't literally thought about in decades when you talked about cheap beauty in the school district banning it. And then you mentioned in calculators, I remember as a freshman in high school, getting into a knockdown, drag out everything but fistfight with my Algebra teacher, because he refused to let us use a calculator on the exam. And I was the outspoken one that said, Why would I not be able to use a calculator on my exam, I can have the calculator in my pocket anytime I want. The calculations that it's doing are irrelevant. It's me knowing the numbers to put it in in the right order in the equations. That's the value of this class, he would have none of it. But I just I would not like if you can't tell already, I never let go of an argument. It's both. It's both a superpower and kryptonite. And I got into really big trouble. Because I said there's no reason I shouldn't use it. Right. And you're making the same argument about Chat GPT.
Mauro Guillen: But that's that's not your your attitude is exactly what makes us make progress. Because as human beings, we learned at some point that we could create tools and use them, right for various purposes. And without using tools. And I think Chat GPT, or a calculator is yet another tool, we will still be in the stone age.
Zack Arnold: So given the year, entrenched in this world of academia, and I think you're you're on the better end, and maybe not the cutting edge, but certainly the leading edge of making sure that the work that you're doing the work that Adam is doing the work that all of Wharton is doing is preparing the the younger minds for the next generation to come. How much do we really, really think that this is going to change because academic institutions, political institutions, economic institutions, I want to be optimistic, but it's just things move really, really slow? So how optimistic are you that these things are actually going to change for the better?
Mauro Guillen: Well, I think I think there's been a lot of change at Wharton, as well as many other educational institutions, in terms of using technology. And also in terms of remote learning. This has been a revolution in the last few years. I mean, we have now more remote students than, you know, students in the classroom. But having said that the students in the classroom are getting a degree, right, the students online, they're getting a certificate. A few of them are getting a degree, but most of them are getting a certificate. I think the next step is to break down those barriers by age. Right. And I'm optimistic that at some point, we will see the light and we will feel that the future is, as I mentioned in the book post generational that we shouldn't be compartmentalizing people and telling them, you have to do this at that age, you have to do that at that age. So when you're 17, you pursue an undergraduate degree when you are 28. You pursue another degree and so on and so forth. But you're absolutely right. We change relatively slowly. And we need to, you know, hurry up a little bit more.
Zack Arnold: Well, I can tell you that if you're looking for a focus group, I'm your focus group. Because there's so many times that I've looked at something like Wharton and I'm like, Man, there are certain parts of that, that are the perfect fit for me. But the thought of doing like a traditional graduate program or MBA or whatever it might be, none of those things really fit the mold that I want. Because I have a very specific trajectory that I want to go with my career. It's very diversified. There's a whole litany of different interests that I have. So I look at that. And it's like, yeah, but I feel like I'm going to be plugged into a hole. And I'm going to have this MBA that's going to train me for the corporate world. But there are some classes and some knowledge that I can acquire, that are invaluable for the portfolio that I want to build. And it sounds like you're trying to create a program like, oh, here, this works perfectly for me.
Mauro Guillen: Yeah. But you know, I mean, well, we need this innovation, there's no question about it. And you know, I'm optimistic because I am a strong believer in the market. I'm a strong believer in competition, right, I think competition is good. That's why we have Michelangelo, right. That's why we have all of the great artists in history, because they were competing to be better than the previous artists, right? They were trying to improve on, on on how they conveyed ideas through arts. And I think, as we see more universities, as we see more entrepreneurs getting into the education space, there's going to be more options for people, the supply is going to get more diversified, have different types of programs in different formats, and so on. And then people like yourself, will start making choices as to oh, I want to do that, or I want to do that other other programs. And the mechanism of the market, I think we'll eventually select the ones that work and eliminate the ones that don't work. And so for that reason, I think I'm reasonably optimistic, but we need to be entrepreneurial, we need to be innovative. And we need to essentially abandon some assumptions that we've been holding for too long.
Zack Arnold: So this isn't a question that I presume you're going to have an answer to. But we're just going to kind of hypothetically talk about this. If we're looking at a percentage of just industries in general, what percentage of industries in general do you think 10 or 15 years from now? It's still going to be I start at the bottom, and I become specialized. And I'm a professional and I work towards the top because there's going to be some, but what percentage do you think you actually go get a degree and you stay in that path for your entire career,
Mauro Guillen: I think a very small percentage. So let's just think about the exceptions, right. So the exceptions would be, hey, somebody wants to be a doctor, you know, you really need to dedicate your life to that you need to learn biology, you need to learn all of the basic subjects and you need to do a residency, you need to acquire a lot of experience, having said that, I think the job of the doctor will change dramatically. Right? Especially with artificial intelligence, you know, these days, you know, examining an x ray is no longer done by human beings. I mean, you really use computers, artificial intelligence, because they are better at discerning patterns in let's say, an x ray of your leg, right? Another category would be pilots, airline pilots, but even that one is also becoming so much more driven by technology, right? So the job of the pilot is also changing, right and has already changed. But still, if you want to be a pilot, well, that's a career path, and you know exactly what you need to do. But for most people, the vast majority of Americans and people around the world, jobs in the future are going to be such that as you mentioned earlier, we're going to be more like generalists. We're going to be learning a few things, knowing how to operate in a corporate context or an organizational context. And then moving from one thing to another in a much more fluid way, reinventing ourselves several times perhaps even pursuing different careers, right. So I would say, if you're pressing me for a number, no more than 5% will be the exceptions. I think the rule is going to be 95%. And here's what we've been describing.
Zack Arnold: Wow, that's that's a pretty big number. So yeah, I love it was clearly you thought about this, and you've talked about it? Oh, absolutely. But yeah, the the very first thing that came to mind, if somebody asked me the same question, having barely any of the background that you do is I would have said, I think that in general, the specialization of a doctor is going to stick the specialization of a nurse, which is similar field is going to stick by how they do it, it's going to totally change.
Mauro Guillen: But it's gonna change. Not totally, but it's going to change. But having said that, I think doctors will need to make up their minds, people who want to be doctors, they need to make up their minds when they're relatively young. Because you need to, you know, learn all of the basics. And the basics are becoming more difficult to learn because knowledge is expanding, right? basic biology and all of these things. But even those jobs are going to be mediated by technology to a much greater extent. I mean, these days, as you know, there are surgeons who don't operate on the patient. It's a robotic device that actually does the job. When I had my meniscus removed from my knee. The doctor told me, he was a robot. It wasn't I mean, he was overseeing the operation, the surgery, but he was a robot. And actually, I was very happy because the robot is much more predictable, much more accurate and and makes fewer mistakes of the human being.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, robots don't have hangovers, right? No, they don't have to worry about the fight that they had with their spouse the night before they're doing surgery. You know that even though I don't have any doctors listening, I'm fascinated By how even in seemingly obvious fields where artificial intelligence can change everything, using a doctor as an example, I don't think that one of the core key traits or skills that most successful doctors have is their ability to recall extensive amounts of information on the fly impromptu to be like, Well, I'm looking at this, this and this, this is my diagnosis. That's that skill is now obsolete.
Mauro Guillen: Absolutely. But but here's the thing. The thing is that medicine is not an exact science, right? This is what all doctors tell me. And there's so many things that could be, you know, happening, although genetics is helping, you know, I think, structure many medical decisions in a way that was not possible before. So medical experience, the experience of the doctor, or the nurse is really, really important. But artificial intelligence, right, actually builds on experience artificial intelligence, as you know, you have to train the algorithm, right? And you train the algorithm with real data. Right? From the past, we see historical data. So it's actually the same kind of thinking is like, yes, a doctor who has been around for 40 years has all of these experience has intuition about what may be wrong with a patient, right. But so does artificial intelligence. That's the thing.
Zack Arnold: So what I want to do now is I want to start breaking this down. And I know that this is the opposite of what you're talking about. But I want to break this down into different generations, using the current kind of language or understanding that we have of these different generations of breaking it more down to a perennial mindset, and thinking, crap, given all of this, if I'm going to accept that this is reality. And by the way, if you're not, you really don't have any choice, because progress is progress. But let's say that right now, we're talking to somebody that has put $50,000 into their education. And they're a junior learning computer science and coding in college. And they see chat, GBT doing all the coding for them. So we have this younger generation that hasn't even entered the workforce yet. Let's start talking about how do they manage this post generational society?
Mauro Guillen: Well, let me just first to speak to the issue of, you know, computer coding and programmers and all of that, and then we can get into the PA generational aspect of it. Using computer science is one of the most popular majors at American universities. Now, it is the most popular major, for example, at Princeton, which is supposed to be a liberal arts school. And quite frankly, I don't know how many of those people are going to be employed in five or 10 years from now. I really don't know, I suspect a much smaller number than today for two reasons. One is that Chat GPT can do the programming, right. So I used to actually hire research assistants to do the programming for me, but now I can just, you know, speak what I need to Chat GPT. And I get the program, you know, for free almost instantaneously. Right? So and then the second thing is that, obviously, there are some emerging markets like India, where they're training 300,000 Computer Engineers every year, right. So I wonder whether this is a wise decision, however, I would say as a minor, in combination with another major learning computer science is actually very, very useful. Because let's say you want to study medicine, well, learning computer science will be useful. Let's say you want to be a pilot, understanding computer science will be useful. Let's say you want to be an economist, or you want to be whatever, right? Understanding computer science, what computers can do for you, and the principles underlying how they work is going to be very helpful. So I think as a minor in computer science is going to be wonderful. As a major, I think he's going to lead many people to a dead end, because computers are going to program themselves in the near future.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I love the way that you put this, I'm going to spin it not spin it, I'm gonna, I'm gonna change the terminology slightly. And I want to see if you still agree. Sure, right? This skill is going to be invaluable. The specialization is not right. So to me, though, the way that I see it, and again, you're 100, you know, 100 miles ahead of me and really understanding this, but the to me that the ultimate skill is understanding the intersection of all the different skills and using what's in the epicenter. So in that sense, learning computer science is invaluable, but not if it's your specialization in your job.
Mauro Guillen: Exactly, exactly, exactly. The way I would put it is, you need to learn how to connect the dots and learning some computer science is going to be useful for about the same way that learning some history will be useful for that as well. So in other words, I think we're entering a phase in which it's too much of specialization, unless once again, you want to be a pilot or you want to be a doctor is not good. You need to be more of a generalist, that's where we're going.
Zack Arnold: So now let's switch this from somebody that's just either still in college and they're thinking, what am I supposed to do? My major is useless. I've wasted all this money, which I don't think is true at all. Again, it's about context. But now I've just settled into the workforce. I'm not at the very bottom rung. I'm beyond getting people coffee. So maybe two, three years into my career. And I'm realizing that this specialization that I've been developing now what do I do?
Mauro Guillen: Reinvent you ourselves, I think you need to build on your strengths. If you have a specialized in some area, you obviously have some strengths. So think about that as a foundation for learning other things that will help you connect the dots that will help you have a 360 degree view of what's going on. So this actually plays to the theme in the book and what we've been talking about over the last half hour or so that what's important here is to essentially understand how things work and be able to contribute to solving problems. But being the specialist is not necessarily the best way, right? So if you're a specialist for the CEC, then what you do what you need to do to branch out, right?
Zack Arnold: Alright, so now I'm going to ask the same question, if anybody has a notice to appeal the, the look at the wizard behind the curtain, you keep answering with the same answers. That's by design, right? Because I want people to understand that it's not about where you are in your career, or what generation you're in, we all have the same problems. But just for the second demonstration one more time, I've now done my specialization or my craft for over 20 years. And I'm in a really good place where I'm regarded as an expert in my field. But I'm really concerned that my specialization is largely going to get taken over by artificial intelligence. What do I do in the circumstance?
Mauro Guillen: Well, look, I think this is a very realistic scenario, I think podcast hosts are going to be replaced by computers. But you see, I say this. And I think about professors, I think professors may also be at least partially substituted by computers, unless, of course, you and I learn how to be better podcasters and how to be better professors by using technology. That is the truth. The truth is, yes, technological change is going to have a large impact on all sorts of jobs and occupations. That doesn't mean those jobs are going to disappear. This is going to be broadcasters, right? What's going to be as different is that your your the way you do your job is going to become something completely different in the near future. Right? That I think is what we need to understand. If you stay still, if you don't incorporate the new possibilities of technology, then you're not going to be the best podcaster in the world. In five years from now.
Zack Arnold: It's so interesting, because I've never actually heard anybody say podcasters will get replaced. There. I've talked to a lot of people about a lot of their different areas, especially in creative fields in the entertainment industry. But the idea of a podcast are being replaced. That's really interesting. And I mean, we're already seeing it happen with at least some of the tests that but what the one of the things that I want to go a little bit deeper into is this idea that you said not all podcasters are going to go away. And one of the things that I've said and I've gotten a little bit of pushback on it, and I still stand by it is that I think that artificial intelligence and just about any field that especially creative fields, it's going to be the extent the extinction of the mediocre, if you just kind of sort of do an okay job, or it's one thing that you're okay at artificial intelligence is going to be able to replace all of the okay podcasts. But then they're going to be the top echelon that I believe are going to be really, really hard to replace, because of the level of nuance and empathy, and just the humaneness that they bring. Am I totally off?
Mauro Guillen: No, I think that makes sense. I think so. So I think I think we should maybe distinguish between two things in creative occupations. Right? One is productivity, right? So your productivity, so how many podcasts can you produce, right a week? Or if you're an artist, how many paintings can you produce a week, and so on and so forth. And I are a professor, how many books you can write, I truly believe that for creative occupations, these new technologies, including AI, are going to increase our productivity, that's for sure. Speaking for myself about my job, as a researcher, I can get information so much more quickly. Now I can acquire knowledge so much quickly, I can connect the dots much faster than before, right. But the second thing is, I also believe that it's going to make all of us not just the elite, more creative, I believe, because again, it's going to enhance our ability to connect the dots to see what today we don't see right in terms of interconnections. This is an interconnected world, right. And as time goes by, it's becoming even more interconnected. And I think AI, essentially, you know, supplements, our ability to see the connections, right, which is the argument that you just made, I completely agree with that.
Zack Arnold: I love that take on it. And I think that the next thing that I want to dig into a little bit further, is in we talked a little bit about the value of communication. Doesn't matter if you're a doctor, it doesn't matter if you're an accountant, doesn't matter if you're a writer, if you're a research assistant, I think that the future of our relationship with technology is our ability to ask good questions. Absolutely. I think that prompt engineer is going to be an entire field.
Mauro Guillen: No, absolutely. I can give you a quote for that. Pablo Picasso, the famous painter in the 1960s. He said computers are useless. They can only give you answers. nothing's starting to change now with AI. But he was absolutely correct. What really matters is to ask the right question is very difficult to see. Sometimes I gave my students as part of a final exam, not a question, but rather I tell them formulate your own question, and then provide an answer to that question. They tell them, show to me how well you know the material by asking a very good question to begin with, right? It's a very tough assignment for a final exam.
Zack Arnold: It's so it's so funny that you bring that up, because this is an area of really, really deep interest to me. And it's not something that I talk about that much. But a big part of my coaching program, when I'm working with my clients, is helping them understand the value of asking better questions. So they'll ask me a question. And I never answer it, I drive them crazy. And like, what if we asked this question instead? And it helps them learn and formulate how to ask a better question. What I have not found to this day, is somebody that can answer this, how do you teach somebody to ask better questions? Why oh, how do you break that down? This is a really hard question to answer.
Mauro Guillen: It's, it's really, really hard. And I think that goes directly at our ability as human beings to problematize the world. So let me explain is to identify what the problem is, right? Or where the interesting problem to work on this, right? So but that's, I think, what differentiates people who, as you said, are mediocre in their fields, from people who become the elite, right, as the leaders in the field. So an architect, let's just think about an architect, right? So there's a lot of architects very capable, who can build a house, right? But there's only a few architects who are saying, Okay, what is the problem that I'm trying to solve? So I want the people who are going to be using this building, to feel better about being there? Or to be more productive? Or to have a pleasant space? or what have you. So the problem we're facing the situation, right? Because, you know, it's relatively straightforward to design a building and then make it happen, right. But if you asked a very interesting question about, what is it that you want to accomplish? Right, then that's what you know, if you answer that successfully, that's what makes for for a brilliant architect, as opposed to just a good architect.
Zack Arnold: I have a feeling that this can become a seven part series, because this right here is the epicenter of stuff I'm so passionate about. And in my I call it my former life, which is not totally true, but am I my former profession, before I made this pivot and transition to coaching and podcasting and writing, I was a film and television editor for 20 plus years working on, you know, big number one TV shows. And what I found is that often the the best results that I got, and putting together a scene or accomplishing the notes, or whatever the feedback was from a director, or producer was predicated on the quality of my question to them, because they would give me notes. And their feedback was largely really, really bad. They had a point, it was my job to figure out what's the note underneath the note? So you say, well, this scene is too slow. And this is out of order. And I'm doing like digital stuff giving me problems. Why don't you tell me what the result is that you want, and I'm the one that can find what the problems are and solve it. And when I would ask different questions, I would get much, much better answers, which got me a much better result. So my argument is that I believe that in I've had a couple of people already that have disagreed with me, and they're saying, I'm too optimistic. So I want to know how how overly optimistic I am and how much I need to be brought back down to earth. But right now, I am not terribly fearful of complex problem solving creative crafts being replaced anytime soon, because of the value of interpreting the note underneath the note, and this applies far beyond editing or filmmaking would apply to architects or anything else, those that collaborate with others on a vision, how, how quickly do you think those that are complex problem solvers are going to be replaced by technology?
Mauro Guillen: So that's a good question. And I think AI will get there. AI will be in a position to ask good questions. But once again, I think the combination of the human and the machine will probably be superior. Let me just give you another example here, which is the CEO of a company with 100,000 employees, there's no way that person can know everything that's going on, right. So typically, a CEO of a big organization is a good one, if he or she or they ask the right questions of their subordinates, right. If you don't ask the right questions, then they're not going to know what's going on. And it's going to be very difficult for them to make strategic decisions as to what to do. So this happens in in many walks of life. I mean, asking the right questions is always really important, by the way, for people who may be listening who are religious, right. asking the right question is really important as well. Think about that. Think about how you know The US is one of the most religious countries in the world, as you know, and how important it is, if you want to, you know, essentially be at peace with your religion, or what it demands for you to be asking yourself the right questions. It's not just about answers, it's actually about asking the right questions, and many sermons or church or synagogue or mosque, they are about asking the right questions.
Zack Arnold: I love this, well, we're gonna keep going deeper and deeper into this because I know that problem solving is a big area of this book. And I want to throw in something that's a little bit of kind of my viewpoint on life, whether or not you know, it applies to anything we're talking about or not. But one of my discoveries that I found earlier in life, it was always about, I need to do everything I can to eliminate the problems, then I can relax, then I have achieved success, you know, whatever it might be. And the realization that I had, as I've gotten older, is that the quality of my life is dictated by the quality of the problems that are in my life and my interest in solving them. So I went from trying to eliminate problems to I want as many problems in my life that I cannot wait to wake up in the morning and solve. So I want you to talk a little bit more about that. But then even deeper is this idea of dissolving problems, which is a new concept I've never heard about before.
Mauro Guillen: Yeah. Well, so let's begin with the problem issue. So if somebody tells you, I don't have any problems to solve, they're probably setting the bar too low. They're not being ambitious enough. And and that's a pity because they're wasting their talents, right? So they say they do the work or whatever. So that's a really, really big, you know, I think, issue for people who essentially their problem free, right, well, they're wasting their minds, right? They're wasting their time probably. Now, this whole idea about solving versus the solving versus solving problems, right. So this came from a former colleague of mine at the Wharton School who passed away unfortunately, like 10 years ago, or 15 years ago, at age 92, or 93, Russell Ackoff, who was the founder of systems thinking. And what he said was, look, I mean, there's two ways of addressing problems, once you have defined the problem, once you've asked the right question. One is to look for a bandaid or for a patch. And that's solving a problem, right? But you're not really making the problem go away. You make the problem go away when you dis solve it. Right. And I don't know whether you want me to go into the example that he always used, which was this famous striker in London? You know, the problems with the buses? The double deckers?
Zack Arnold: Oh, yeah, this is totally irrelevant. Go go as long as Yeah.
Mauro Guillen: So there was this big strike in the 1950s, in London. And at the time, there were two people stuffing, each of those double decker buses, there was the driver. And then there was the person who would collect the fare, right. And they first of all, would collect the fare with the on the bus selling the tickets, right. And there was this big, you know, conflict between them. Because they were accusing each other during peak time that they weren't, they were not working, you know, in the right way, the driver was going too fast, for example, and therefore, the the one who was selling the tickets, didn't have enough time in between stops, to sell all of the tickets to everybody who was born in the bus, right? So they tried all sorts of things, to solve the problem, right? Slowing down the buses, you know, doing all sorts of things. But they were only able to resolve the problem, when and this was Ross Akka, who was advising them was doing consulting for the London Transportation Authority, when he realized the person selling the tickets during peak time, shouldn't be on the bus. This person should be at his bus stop on the ground, selling tickets, right, which today would be the analog of having a vending machine for tickets, or your phone, right? You see what I'm saying. But back in the 1950s, they couldn't figure it out. And rustaq have said you're trying to solve the problem, you're not trying to dissolve it. So let's try to make the problem go away. And all you need to do is just put that person under stop, not throughout the day, right, but rather only during peak time. So this is an example that I explained the book, I think it's a beautiful illustration of the problem.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I want to go deeper into this. And I want to use a couple of different analogies to connect this to what's going on in the world today. My interpretation of this is something I've been talking about for years in general, both in creative pursuits, but also specifically with the way that the medical industry is designed, and that I'm very disenchanted with the Western medical system. And I've talked with a multitude of different physicians and professionals that feel the same way. Because the way that you're trained in metals, medical school, diagnose the disease and treat the symptoms but nobody's looking at the root cause and essentially, this is different terminology for the same thing either here's a pill to solve the symptom, or we find the root cause and we dissolve the problem all together, right and from in the creative world, I feel like this, again is the difference between the note or the note underneath the note, right treating the symptom is the scene is too long. Let's make it shorter. dissolving. The problem is, well, this scene is too long, because you don't understand who this character is. Because you didn't establish that for scenes before. If I'm invested in this character's journey, this scene actually needs to be longer note note underneath the note, right? So now that we better understand that, I want you to put yourself in the shoes of being a mediator being an arbitrator. I don't know how familiar you are with the specifics right now. But as you may know, just from you know, reading the basic news, Hollywood is essentially burning to the ground as we speak. It is a multitude of of unions and industries that have said this model no longer works. What are the questions that you would have each of the parties asking each other so that we can dissolve this problem rather than solve it? Because frankly, we solve, quote, unquote, this problem every three years, and we come back and things are worse than they were before? So help me dissolve what's going on in the entertainment industry instead of just solve it?
Mauro Guillen: Well, I think I think we need to realize that the way in which the internet has been developing requires some serious adjustments, right? Because I think the negative effects are out there for everyone to see, for example, polarization in politics, well, a lot of that has been because of social media, and the way in which social media are being exploited by people who are spreading fake news, for example, and so on and so forth. But when it comes to these striking Hollywood, if I understand it correctly, what's going on is that obviously, they're seeing that AI, initially was streaming, but now it's AI, is essentially using the truth of a lot of people's work, like photographs, and what have you text to train the algorithms, right, without paying for the use of those images, that takes that content. And therefore there's a lot of dissatisfaction because obviously, they're not concerned about their situation today, they are concerned about what may happen five years from now when AI is even more dominant than it is today. And so I think, you know, we need to make a lot of adjustments there. And we need to have some regulation. You see, a free markets don't work by themselves, they work because we have rules and norms of behavior. And right now, I don't think we have anything of that sort. Because no government is willing to get into this at least yet, when it comes to AI. So I think we need to step in, and we need to regulate what's going on. So that the people who are the content creators actually get the rewards that they deserve.
Zack Arnold: So what are some of the questions that we can be asking? So we can problem solve collectively as human beings, rather than I'm on this side, and you want this and I'm not giving it to you? And I'm on this side, and screw you. We're taking your houses by right. That's where we are right now,
Mauro Guillen: I think the most fundamental question, and I'll give you an illustration from the past on this, the most fundamental question is, how is ai ai is a powerful tool and is going to make our lives better? In many ways? How are we going to be able to accelerate innovation in AI? Some people say don't interfere. I disagree. I think we need to have some norms, some rules, some, you know, structure there. And this is why in the absence of those, we're having these strikes in Hollywood, right? And the, you know, the examples from the past is, do you remember what we had? videotape recorders? Right?
Zack Arnold: That's how I taught myself to edit two VHS players.
Mauro Guillen: Right. So it's very, it was very chaotic at the beginning, until there were some standards, right? It industry wide. And then really, it, it grew. And it made the possible for people to enjoy movies and all sorts of content at home, which before was impossible to do, right? So you need order, you need norms, you need rules in markets, not just in schools, you need them in markets as well. And there's no such thing as a completely free market, like the jungle, right. And that doesn't work normally. And I think it would be better for AI development if we actually intervene right now. And brown brought in some rules and some norms of behavior. And I think that would satisfy many of the people who are now striking in Hollywood.
Zack Arnold: So So let me ask you this, then as a professor, that is not only not banning it, but actually encouraging students to use chat GPT because you see that learning the skill of interacting with the technology, knowing that you're very much embracing it, what are the norms that you would create?
Mauro Guillen: The norms that I would create is number one, that I want them to exercise their creativity, I want them to understand my students to understand the Chat GPT is not just, you know, just don't just tell tell the program. Hey, A I need to write this paper, why don't you do it for me? Right? That's not the way it works, you really need to be as we were discussing earlier, actively in communication, right with the computer, right, you need to follow up, you need to be very precise in terms of the questions that you're asking. So that you can actually in the end have an output that is, you know, much more than just that a result of, you know, blind computing power, right. So I'm going to emphasize this to them that they need to exercise their own intelligence as human beings to make the most out of a technology such as Chat GPT. But I certainly want them to use it, because everybody's going to be using it. So what's the point of my telling them? No, you cannot use such beauty, then yeah, absolutely counterproductive.
Zack Arnold: And this is an argument that I've gotten into more than once with people via social media, via my newsletter, and otherwise, where they're like, No, we can't let this technology in our industry, it's going to take over, it's going to take our jobs. Whether or not that's true is irrelevant. progress is progress. You're not stopping progress, you can either embrace it, and you can ingratiate yourself. And then like you said, it's not the technology that's going to take over, it's the people that are using the technology that are the ones that are going to take over. But there's still this ingrained mindset of note, we need things to go back to the way they were. And we need to abolish all of this, and we need to make sure that it's regulated and outlawed. I mean, what do you think the percentage chances are of any of that happening?
Mauro Guillen: Well, I'm not sure I understand your question. So maybe maybe it would be a good idea. If you rephrase it.
Zack Arnold: Sure. Right. It's funny, because here I am talking about the value of questions that I'm asking about,
Mauro Guillen: Well, exactly what assumptions you're making. Can you reformulate it just.
Zack Arnold: Sure. Yeah. So the what do you think the chances are, that we're going to be able to regulate AI in such a way that we just are not allowed to use it in creative pursuits because we're being replaced,
Mauro Guillen: That would be a mistake. And of course, look, I mean, AI will have some applications that are going to be very negative, like in war, right? Or for, for example, spreading fake news, and so on, and so forth. So any technology can be used for, for good or for evil, there's no question about it. But that's precisely why we also need some orders and some norms, right. It's not just that the good things come out, but also that we, you know, kind of put some constraints on some of the negative consequences of all of it. And so I think it will be extremely important to perhaps take a take a break from this, you know, incredible race that is going on in terms of seeing who develops the best AI tools, you know, companies countries, are racing right now trying to be the first to accomplish certain milestones in the development of AI. I think we need to take a step back, and we need to think about what is it that we're doing?
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I completely agree. And I've, I've made this joke more than once, that when you're asking an AI, quote, expert, to explain the future of the industry, it's the same as asking a dog to do calculus. Nobody knows, like to prognosticate and pretend that we know exactly where this is going, I think is virtually impossible, especially with the speed that it's moving. So what basically the place that I want to leave this, I want to come back now to kind of the core of our conversation about this perennial mindset and seeing these different phases of life. There's one phase of life that I don't think we've covered quite as much that I think for a lot of people that are getting close to it are really, really scared by it. And those that have a long ways don't even know what it looks like. And that's the scary word, retirement. What is retirement even mean nowadays? How do we define that?
Mauro Guillen: Well, look,
it's a great question, because 40% of Americans who retire, they go back to work eventually. And 52% of Americans who retire early, they also go back to work eventually. So retirement is this 19th century invention. It's supposed to be Nirvana, it's supposed to be heaven, right? It's like, you're supposed to work very hard for a number of years, and your reward is not that you will have a job that will be, you know, satisfactory, satisfying to you. But rather, your reward is going to be that at some point, you no longer will have to work. And hey, for sending occupations like construction or very physical manual work. That is important, right? Because you cannot be a construction worker forever. Right? At some point, you need to retire. But the idea that you will retire and not do anything, I think is is just a contrary I think to human nature, actually, human beings like to get things done. They like to be relevant in the world. We like to be social. So retirement is one of these things that was invented, if you remember, it was invented to be able to keep the working class under control, because at the time 120 years ago, there were all these movements like communism and socialism. And you know, business leaders and politicians were a little bit scared about them, and that's why they invented retirement right as a way to Okay, I kind of, you know, keep things under control. But I think we have taken this retirement idea to such an extreme, conveying to people that that's what they should aspire to that that's the goal in life. I think it's very misleading. I think retirement is completely oversold. That's an idea.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. And the lesson that I learned of I mean, I've learned a lot, even today. But the lesson that I've learned and learning so much more about this, is I just assumed retirement is what it is, this is just the way that we've always done it until I realized, Oh, this is a construct. And the construct is, that's what keeps us working for the same company, because they're contributing to the 401k. Now, I've got the golden handcuffs. And like we've talked about, you know, waiting for that, that bliss in the end when I can, quote unquote, start my life, right? That's just an absolute myth. And also, there's so much statistics that prove that once people retire, and they no longer have a purpose, no longer have work to do they die faster.
Mauro Guillen: Oh, absolutely. Your health suffers, and also suffers. Now, don't get me wrong, though. So I'm not saying here that people shouldn't save for retirement, they should, because you never know. I mean, maybe you actually would like to take a break, right? But think about retirement also not as the end destination is not the terminus, you may retire. And then realize, like, nearly half of the American population does that that's not the thing that you want to do, and you go back to work. And then, you know, when you are like no longer physically or mentally fit, then you're going to return in the game. So I think we need to change our priors, the assumptions that we've been making, first and foremost, that retirement is supposed to be heaven, which is not.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, for me, I always think about retirement is this is the moment in which I have achieved financial freedom. And I can say no to anything that I never want to do, again, whether that happens at 45 or 65. Or whenever it's all about, I know that whenever somebody says, well, when do you think you will retire and I'm like, I'm never retiring. Like, I love the work that I do. And I'm always looking to do different and varied things. So I would just assume I'm going to do that, until the day that I die, God willing, and my health willing. But for me retirement is I can say no to anything that I never want to do again. So having said that, the place that I want to leave us because I know that you're a very, very busy man, and you know, running this entire school and everything else that's going on. Let's assume that nobody had been listening to this conversation so far. And they're just diving in now. And we need to do a super quick summarization of what in your own words are the most important takeaway from your book that perennials? How do we summarize for summarize this for people succinctly,
Mauro Guillen: I think the summary is very simple. They say, We should be very optimistic about the future. But only if we change the way in which we structure our lives. If we remove all of those constraints that we have inherited from the past, there's a world of opportunity out there. Technological change, economic change in the world, I think is opening up a lot of opportunities. But if we don't change, if we don't reinvent ourselves, if we don't learn how to reinvent ourselves, we're not going to be able to benefit from this entire revolution. I think that's the central message of the book.
Zack Arnold: And I think that's a great place to leave it. Having said that, anybody that wants to dig into this book, they want to dive deeper into your work and all of the impact that you're having on society and technology. And otherwise, where's the best place to send people?
Mauro Guillen: I think the best is for people to go to LinkedIn, and to get connected to me. And then we can exchange messages, I promise that I will reply to every message that I get. And, you know, I frequently post things so we can keep each other abreast of what's going on.
Zack Arnold: I love it. Well, I'm definitely going to be following that advice myself, because I'm a big fan of the work that you're doing, and want to continue following what you're doing. It's just for me alone. This was very educational today. So I hope that it was for the audience as well. And I can't thank you enough for sharing your immensely valuable time and expertise with me. So thank you so much.
Mauro Guillen: Okay, thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. And I love these conversations. Thank you, Zack.
This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared by Debby Germino and published by Glen McNiel.
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