Transcript
Zack Arnold: I am here today with Shiran Amir, who is a film and television editor who's also actively involved in the Motion Picture Editors Guild. And might I also say somebody that has been a fairly long part of my history and my journey, going from the world into features, television, otherwise, the union activism, all these other things. We've had a lot of behind the scenes conversations, and today, we're going to put those conversations on the record. So Shiran, it's been a long row. But here we are on the microphone sharing our stories today. So glad to finally have you here.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Glad to be here, Zack, thank you.
Zack Arnold: Well as far as our story is concerned, our story begins on a little show that was called The OA for Netflix. And we're certainly not going to get mired in the details. But that's where you and I first met, were you at the time, were an assistant editor, I was brought in as an editor, very short lived relationship, because just to address the elephant in the room right away, whatever it is that I talked about that one show where I got fired from, this is the show that I got fired from. And it happens to everybody, when you get to a certain level. And I had multiple colleagues who were like, Oh, you got fired, oh, you finally made it, you're not anybody until you've gotten fired. I was gonna say that. Yeah. But you know, it's a big shock at the time. And this episode is not going to be about that at all. But that's where our origin story begins, is we at least had the pleasure for a few weeks of calling each other colleagues. However, your origin story certainly doesn't begin at the OA. So I first want to begin by learning more about you your origin story that brought us to that point. And then from there, how so many things changed and grew in your career. And now we're going to talk about how you were able to make all that happen, because truly the reason we're here is not just to catch up and talk on the record about things you and I have talked about behind the scenes for so long. It's because I have had this theory that I've been trying to prove to so many people in our industry for so many years, that the nice guys and girls do finish first. And that providing value above all else is not to the detriment of your career, you're gonna move forwards faster in your career, if you put others first and you provide them value, and you are going to be a large piece of evidence to prove that theory and show people that it is about putting others first. And that can be to their benefit, but also to yours. So I'm very excited to talk about all of that and more. But let's start with the origin story of Shiran's. Where would you like to begin?
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Well, first of all, I'm gonna say that I actually met you a little bit before the OA, because you were on a panel editor's lounge with Dan Lebental, who's one of my mentors who will come up in the story.
Zack Arnold: We're gonna talk about how in the world did we get somebody like Dan Lebental to be a mentor, but I do remember that that the first time we kind of informally met, yeah, it was you would approach me after doing that panel, which then led to us recognizing each other when we started the OA. And the stories that come afterwards. But I would say that that's definitely not your origin story. So where do you want to begin with how it is that you ended up on this call today?
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Well, I guess I think the the relatable, the most relatable part of my origin story is that I didn't grow up here. I came as an outsider. I was born in New York, but I grew up in Israel since I was eight. So eight to 21. I was in Israel, and you have to serve in the military mandatory service. And I was editing in high school. So I was able to get into the editing, to the filming unit in the Air Force. And that's actually where I learned editing and avid and all that. And when I, when I finished my service, I was able to learn a little bit of an extra skill, After Effects. So I studied after effects for half a year. And then I saved up money and worked in Israel and then moved to LA, it didn't have didn't have any connections. So I think a lot of people in LA are transplants from other places. And, you know, we always get laughed at but without connections, we can't make it anywhere. And it's not true. I don't know why. But I kind of firmly believed in myself that I can make that happen if I don't even if I don't have it. So before I moved from Israel, I actually started doing research and Googling post houses in LA. And then I would go through all the Google results and just email my resume. And of course, nobody responded. But one person did respond. This Israeli guy who was the post house post supervisor, and because I'm from Israel, and you know, he's Israeli, he took a liking to me, we got contacting each other and, and long story short, two weeks after I got here, I had a job. So it was from a Google search. And yeah, the economy crashed in the meantime. And so that was there was some hurdles there. But I was able to hit the ground running because I found somebody who I can connect with because of where I'm from.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I think that that's such a key point is the number one, I don't know what the numbers were. But I would guess that you sent out a lot of emails and a lot of resumes and the response rate is going to be fairly statistically close to 0%. But the person that did respond, it wasn't because they saw some important bullet point on your resume or some hard skill. It was oh, somebody like me, where we might have similar interest in conversations, right? That's so important. And what I want to point out is something that you said that I agree with, but I want to correct or tweak it a little bit, which is that people say that you can't make it without connections. I agree with them. The problem is, we think that we either have the connections or we don't, as opposed to, I have the power to create those connections. So when people say, oh, yeah, but it's all about who you know, I'm like, yeah, it is all about who you know. But no, but you can get to know people. That's always the thing is like, well, either I'm extroverted, and I'm good at networking, and I can build my network, or I can't people think they have some genetic deficiency to be able to network. I was extremely introverted as they come. Most people don't believe that, you know, me well enough to at least be like, yeah, no, he actually is. But the point being, that you do need a network, but you're somebody that said, I know, I need to network, I'm just gonna go out there, and I'm gonna make it. That's the part about the story. And we're gonna have many further additions to that. But that core mindset of I don't know anybody yet.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Yeah. And I think it's kind of a recurring theme with me is when people when there's like, a, an obstacle in the way, instead of just being up, can't do it, I guess won't do it, then I'll just be like, Well, how do I work around this, if I go a bit further back, my high school teacher who I admired and who was like, almost a second father figure for me, laughed at me that I was even gonna go into post production and get into this Air Force filming unit, because that was also connections only. And it really like I was taken aback that he didn't have that faith in me. And so I was like, Well, I'm gonna go prove them wrong. And I'm gonna get in there, and I'm gonna, and I'm sure there's room if I have enough talent, or whatever. And, and I did. And, you know, it might be it might be, it might be not cool. But I kind of sit I saved this phone number. So I could text them and tell them that I did it. But
Zack Arnold: Well, good for you. And I think that that's an area where you and I have a lot in common is that there's nothing I enjoy more than when somebody says I can't do something that lights a fire under me and like, Okay, well cool off, if you believe that, and let's just let's see if that's true or not. And I know that you have that same fire. And that was one of the things that I think kind of, you know, just connected us in a way.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Yeah, it begs the question is, if it's a good thing that people tell you that or if it's a bad thing that people tell you that, you know,
Zack Arnold: I really think that at the end of the day, most people are telling you that with good intentions, I think it's because they want to make sure that you're going in a path that's going to be easy, that's going to be secure, that's going to be safe, that's going to be comfortable. And I think a teacher liked and I don't know the teacher, I think some of them might have ill intentions. But in general, I think it's a teacher that has your best interests in minor Thank you, well, well, you can't do that, like it's going to be too hard. And I want to make sure you choose something safe, and something that you can do. So you know, stick to your lane. I think that said with good intentions. But I don't think that people realize how detrimental that can be when people actually listen to it. You heard it, but you didn't listen to it. And you use that to your advantage to inspire you to do something that, you know, maybe has been done before, but isn't very common. So I actually want to dig into this a little bit further, because we are going to see this recurring theme over and over. This is a story that I don't know yet. So talk to me about how you got into this coveted program in the Air Force and what you actually did, because I don't get a lot of people that trained in the Air Force on habit. So there's got to be at least a story or here that's both relevant to what we're talking about, but also really juicy and interesting.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Well, in Israel, which I think is a very smart approach. They choose majors in high school. So it's long before you have to make those decisions when it's really expensive. So you get to bounce around different subjects and feel what you like while you're still in high school. So I majored in theater and Media Studies. And I really loved theater at the time. And that was my obvious choice. And I didn't really want to do anything scientific. So the other leftover choice was Media Studies. And kind of as I was going along, I started falling out of love with theater and into love with media studies and specifically editing. So I was lucky enough I know you can't, I'm not about to say lucky here, but
Zack Arnold: You've listened to the show more than once. I wasn't gonna stop you go on.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: I'm a very avid listener. I really like your podcasts. So but I think in this case, I was I was in a really good position to discover that I want to be an editor at the age of 16. So I already like that I was able to try all the different aspects of moviemaking and realize that I'm really good at editing in real and passionate about it and it fits my brain where it's part creative and part analytical. So okay, you're in Israel, you're 16 you want to be an editor. What do you do so then I heard There's these filming units in the military that are kind of like a post house, but in uniform, where your post supervisors like your commander and the different divisions of the military have them, it's very hard to get into because of course, everybody wants to do something in their military service that'll that'll help them in the future, and utilize and help them train their skills of what they want to do. And there's not a lot of jobs like that. So I applied for the military units, you have to kind of apply to them in advance. And so it's kind of like getting a job, you submit your portfolio and letters of recommendation and all that. And I applied for different ones. And then I eventually got into the Air Force One from a high school that wasn't a fancy art school from like, without any connections. And just because they really liked me in the interview, and I showed above and beyond like I showed them storyboards. So they drew for, for stuff that I had, like, shorts that I made in the high school, like really high end stuff for high school, and a documentary I'd edited. So they liked me, and they brought me on. And that was a really awesome experience. It's like, kind of like film school, but for free, and you get to edit real products for real clients. So you get to deal with the dumb client notes, or people who don't understand filmmaking, but you still want to make it interesting. We made tutorials for like the plane mechanics and for the pilots. So like, I made a feature length film on how to take apart an F 16 engineer, put it back together.
Zack Arnold: Wow, that's fascinating. I can make it not war, imagine this, this has got to be one of the coolest, most unique ways to go to a film school. And the first image that came to my mind, and this will be a little bit of a tangent, but I'm fascinated by this, to know that you're basically learning in what you call a post production environment. But knowing that a commander and a very organized regimented system like the Israeli military, and they're organizing it with military precision military discipline, but building a post department out of it, what in the world, were you thinking when you started working in this industry in the US, having come from that world, to this one, seeing how things function or the lack thereof?
Shiran Carolyn Amir: You know, there's a lot more similarities than you think that break. You know, a lot of big organizations have some, you know, inefficiencies or protocols to follow just for the sake of protocols. So I'm not new to being aggravated about why is something done this way, and not this other way. So I really had no problem adjusting to the industry, it actually I think, is even better after going for a military thing where you have no choice. This is how we do things to an industry, where if you can't think of a better thing, they're open to it, you know?
Zack Arnold: Well, I'm glad to hear that you were able to, to bring a lot out of that. But I was really hoping you were gonna say like, yeah, there is a better way to do it. I saw the in the Israeli military, there's a much more efficient, effective use of our time and our energy. And I'm going to bring all that to the total dysfunctional mess that we have. Now. But you know, I guess everybody has their their inefficiencies.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: There are aspects of that, because because I got two years of full on experience on Avid having to make real things I learned avid really well. And so when I moved out here, and I worked in this really like crappy reality clip show, and I was working with other people, I of course, knew avid tricks that they didn't know when they knew avid tricks that I didn't know. So there was some mutual sharing of ideas,
Zack Arnold: As I understand it. And you can go a little bit deeper into the story. But you have a pretty interesting situation where with one of your first jobs that you got out here in this industry, you were told that it's basically customary standard, practice that because I was able to help you get this job, I'm going to get half your paycheck. So it sounds like you learned a lot of really interesting life lessons about how the business really functions. Tell us tell us a little bit more about the story how you ended up in this situation and how you handle it.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Yeah, well, one of my first jobs out here, somebody kind of knew that I was really new, and knew that I didn't know what how things functioned in LA. And they tried to tell me that that's the custom. That's how things are done around here. If I get you a job, I have a family to support. You have to pay me half your paycheck or your for it was just it was the first paycheck. And I remember kind of being outraged by that. And you know, being in a vulnerable place of being new to LA and not knowing anybody else or not knowing very other people. Then I kind of had no other choice but to do it. So I did it. But in my heart, I promised myself that if I if I'm ever in that position to help other people get their first or second or whatever job, I'm not going to charge them it's going to be something that I do because it's the right thing to do and because I'm a good person and Not because I'm trying to get anything out of it.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. And we're going to talk a little bit later about the myriad of different things that you're either involved with now that you have been involved with in the past you'll be involved with in the future, with a core directive of improving the lives of the people that are in this industry for the better. But I want to put a pin in that for a second and continue to to dig a little bit deeper into this origin story and learn more about these major benchmarks. So we have this and I love by what I had never heard of this before. But this idea of you choosing a major in high school, like instantly, I'm just like, da, come on, why are we not doing that? In a way, I think that at least maybe works this way, in the some of the better areas, they kind of sort of unofficially are even doing that in middle school with my son, where he's very specifically in what's called a stage tech program. So he can learn, you know, how to run stage lights, and stage managing for live events. And like, when I was in middle school, it was history and math and science, like all the generic stuff. So maybe we're getting keen to this. But I've yet to hear of even high schools that have you pick a major. So I think that's absolutely brilliant. But we take you through this journey from being in the military coming out to the industry in the US got somebody here that takes advantage of you, you've taken a really important life lesson from it. Now walk us through some of the the next stages of you starting at the very bottom and kind of climbing up to where it is that you are now.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Okay, so I My first job was reality shows. And that kind of got me in this circle of reality television in assisting in reality. And the nice thing about being a transplant is that I would go back to Israel once a year, and and visit my family and friends. And that kind of provided me like an official status check. Because every year I'd go back and they'd be like, so how's it going? What are you working on? And I'd be like, I'm assisting in reality, I'm assisting in reality, I'm assisting in reality for three years. And I was like, Hold on, I keep saying this, but I don't want to be doing this, why am I still doing this? And it made me stop and realize, oh, wait, this, this doesn't just course correct. As I, as I work, I have to actively like navigate this thing. So I saved a bunch of money on one of the last reality shows I did. And then I went to the executive producer and just said, Alright, so this is my last show, I'm not coming back. And also because they didn't want to promote, they couldn't promote me to edit because they didn't have the they didn't hire the editors. So she told me Wait, you're leaving, and you don't have another job lined up? And I'm like, Yeah, that's what I'm doing. I'm leaving. And so
Zack Arnold: How could you? Don't you know, Shiran that you should just be lucky to have a job. And just be thankful because there are so many people out there that will be grateful to have that opportunity. So How dare you?
Shiran Carolyn Amir: I know. I know. It's you
Zack Arnold: Did you have any of those thoughts? It doesn't seem like you did. But did you have any of those doubts are like, should I do I need a job to not come back? Like because that's, that's very, very bold, especially for somebody as young as you are in your career to be like, Nope, I don't have anything lined up peace out?
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Well, I think I've I learned very quickly into this industry that it's fair freelance, it, you know, you you find jobs as you go. And so I understood that if I'm already working, I'm not able to find a job that I want, because I'm already working. And even if I'm able to still look for a job while I'm working, which I can't, because it's too hard, like, I'll usually put my all into my job, you know, it's not ideal, you want to be able to free up so that you can really focus and, and especially when I realized, okay, I only got reality shows, because that's my circle of contacts. Now, I need to disconnect out of the circle and build a new circle with new contacts. And, and I need time to do that I can't be working while I'm trying to figure out all these meetups and the social groups that I need to now be part of, I think that's exactly when I met you for the first time is when I started going to these editing events like editors lounge.
Zack Arnold: And the key component here that I think stops so many people is something that you mentioned, but it was almost kind of like an afterthought. And it could literally be not only an entire podcast conversation, it can even shameless promotion Become an eight week boot camp that I'm currently building, which is the fact that you said I saved a bunch of money. So I could say no and have time, right. And the sticking point for so many is, well, it's really hard to build this network, but I need to have the job. So I can have the money. But I need to have the time. It's just it's this endless catch 22. And what I always tell everybody is you need to have the money to have the freedom to say no to the wrong projects and the wrong people. So you have the time, as you said, to design your path towards the right project. So it was it was kind of an afterthought that you mentioned and it's so huge. You need to have the financial freedom to be able to walk away without the next gig so you have the time to focus.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Yeah, absolutely. And also as you always say is Like just crafting a new circle of contacts that's going up the right ladder, you have a lot of research you need to do of the people that will help you get there and the kinds of contacts you should have. So that that all that research takes time. Another thing that people don't do often or like a lot of people don't realize until much later in their life, that they should now collect unemployment insurance when you're doing this, because it is meant for that. It's money that you have already earned that set aside for you when you're not working. And so I've met a lot of people who never thought they deserved to claim on it on unemployment, when they when they totally could have.
Zack Arnold: The way the system is built. That's the whole reason that it's there. You're not stealing or taking advantage. That's literally the reason that it exists. I don't want to go into any of the specifics or the systems or whatnot. But I'm curious, in your mind, when you were saying that I want the freedom to say no to all the wrong projects, or people and I need to be able to afford it. Did you give yourself a time limit? Was it like I need to save to give myself three months, six months? I don't know how long it's going to be like in general, what were you thinking? This is how long I say no, while I take the time to focus and build my network,
Shiran Carolyn Amir: I didn't put a strong limit on it. I knew that I have the safety net of people who I knew, like if I fail, if I run out of savings, I can always go back. So I I was pretty flexible. I looked at I kept an eye on my finances. And I just kept going or hoping for the best maybe that's not the best goal, but or the best strategy. But you know, I just I kept saying having to say no. So that gave me a good indicator of the intervals in which I could say yes, if I had to, you know.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. And that's I think another really key point of this that a lot of people miss is they think that it's either or, I'm gonna say no to the reality assistant jobs. So I can say yes to building my network and finding a new opportunity. But once I say no to it, it's gone. I burned all the chips, and I can never go back. It's like making a couple of phone calls. And you can probably find the paycheck jobs if you need them. There's always work to be done. But people just think it's binary
Shiran Carolyn Amir: people liked your work. People still appreciated your work on something. It's not like that goes away.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. And I would imagine and maybe you didn't find it in this specific instance. But in general, I would guess you've been very strategic about your yeses and noes to get where you are as quickly as you have halves there. Has there ever been a fear where you thought yourself? Well, but if I say no to them, they're never going to call me again. And I'm gonna burn the bridge. And instead, you see the opposite? Which is Oh, no, they actually want me more.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Yeah, I mean, that's that's kind of how I felt I didn't really care so much about the reality context anymore, because I already felt like I it's funny because you say how I got here so quickly, but in my mind, it took me forever and I had all these obstacles and those three years and reality to me was too too long. Since I didn't want nothing I guess reality it's just wasn't what I set out to do. So to me, it's it's just like it took about as long as it took I couldn't have taken shorter to in my eyes probably. But I guess you know, I guess on the from look on the outside, it looks like I I got there quickly. But actually, I said no and read rerouted my path multiple times. It wasn't just this one time with reality television, because I did that again later.
Zack Arnold: Alright, so then let's go into that. Let's talk about this reroute route rerouting more than once, because it's not a matter of I didn't want to do this now. I'm where you want to be. And I'm gonna be here for 45 years. Yeah, well isn't designed that way anymore. So we have to learn the meta skill of being able to chart the path, surround yourself with the network, get where you want to get and then realize all right, either I got what I wanted out of it, or this wasn't the best choice. Now I have to do it again. So you've done this more than once. So talk about where else you've had to do this.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: So I was in reality, and then I switched over. And I started by assisting on some indie films. And that's we can segue into how I met Dan, because that's kind of where that fits in. But overall, to answer this question, I segwayed into indie films. I worked on two indie films for like, maybe two years, maybe three years total to indie films. And both of them either came out way way later, or didn't come out for years and like are in there was like a lot of stop and go had to go on reshoots and stuff. And I felt man, I'm working so hard on these indie films that might not even be released. You know, like I won't I have nothing to show for it. I should go into television. I also missed in the reality world. I missed the big family of people that I worked with. And on indie films, it was just me and one other person. So then I did that again. I stopped working on indie films, and I only applied and only pursued TV gigs. Until I was able to work with Chris McCaleb on Fear the Walking Dead, the interstitial. They had a little like a little web program, but it was with everybody on the show. And then I did a bunch of shows after that just says Fill in or whatever. And then that brought me to work as a first full season on the LA. And that was I was the lead assistant editor first on and everything. And then if we're sticking to this theme of rerouting after the OA, it was a very long assisting gig, it was nine months for me. And I wasn't sure. And I ended up not being promoted to editor on season two, I realized that I can't wait, I can't wait around and hope to be promoted. Because of my good work. There's all these parameters outside of my control that will prevent me from being promoted, I should just start editing regardless. So then I rerouted again and turned down all assistant gigs other than ones for my health care and pension. Like once a year, I started editing indie stuff at home to learn premiere, and to start racking up editing credits. And then you know, the finessing of your path keeps going, then you want to stop doing non union films and you want to stop doing, you know, certain budget stuff that you you want your rate to be higher. So it's always a fine tuning of where you want to go.
Zack Arnold: But again the common theme, I've decided this is no longer the fit. So I need to find time. So I can build a new network, prove myself to the right people. And I can make this shift, which essentially is led you to where you are now. And it's funny, because you talked about why worked on and edited some indie films, there's a pretty big part of that story that's going to be relevant to today's theme that you left out. And I don't know if that's your being overly humble, or you figured maybe we are we're gonna get to it eventually. But talk about one of those recent indie films what ended up happening for you with that film?
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Well, the funny thing is, it's not very recent. It's actually the very first film I edited after the OA
Zack Arnold: show. I didn't I didn't realize that it must just be because the timeline of Indies I wasn't aware of that. That's really interesting.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: In 2017 I edited Lupe, which is an indie film, that was almost no budget, I edited it in Premiere, because I also wanted to learn premiere. I did it remotely before that was cool. Because the directors are in Boston. And also they kind of wrote it. But the script was very much not what they shot. So it was a lot of improv, there's a real transact or non actor in the film. So they wanted her to feel comfortable. So there was a lot of improv. And basically, I was given a hard drive the scenes and told make a movie. So and don't read the script, because it doesn't match at all. So that was an excellent exercise, going out of assisting and starting to really sharpen the editing brain. I did that for a year. And so we finished it in 2018 2019, and went to some festivals, it premiered at Cinequest, in 2021, to some virtual festivals. And then we kind of thought it was done, you know, there's no big names. There's no big like anything, not behind the scene, not in front, not behind the camera, not in front, there's no big names, and there's no big budget. So we kind of thought that was the end. But in 2020, or near the end of 2020, because I guess HBO Latino was looking for more content, they bought the movie and released it on it. So it aired on HBO, Latino, and it got it went online on HBO Max in 2021. And because that happened, I was able to submit it for award consideration, because I was super proud of the editing on it, especially having to re configure the story or like actually kind of almost rewrite the story in editing. So I submitted it for an Eddie and they got a nomination. So I was nominated for an Emmy Award and 2021. And it was like it was such a dream come true and an honor for me. And it it also shortened the way into ace, which has been a dream come true as well. So I'm now an American cinema editors editor.
Zack Arnold: So there's a lot of stuff that I want to unpack in between all that is really, really important and relevant to this larger conversation about providing value. We're gonna get to it in a second. But I want to understand staying within this realm of making these transitions and very deftly navigating career paths, I'm assuming coming off of an ace Eddie nomination and congratulations, by the way, because I didn't know a lot of the details of the story. I kind of knew the superficial ones. But I love the story even more now. But the assumption is that anybody that hasn't read your bio will clearly you must be working on either higher profile indie films or your own studio films. Is that the case?
Shiran Carolyn Amir: No it I mean, are you talking about these specific Indies?
Zack Arnold: I'm talking about what it is that you're doing currently.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Oh, currently, I'm an editor on a show for Fox 911 Season Six
Zack Arnold: From the outside perspective. The reason that I bring this up is that a lot of times this is an exercise I take my students through all the time, is that you can just start with somebody's IMDb Pro page. And if you're wondering what was their path, because everybody has a unique path, but I really believe underneath the path. It's a very similar formula for just about everybody to kind of demystify it. But there are then certain people, you look at an IMDb Pro page, and you're like, What the hell, I am one of them. And you I think are also in that category of like, so from this to that to that talk, how do we get from Lupe and from very, you know, tiny, quote, unquote, indie film and Eddie nomination to a very, you know, standard network television show on our network. How does that happen?
Shiran Carolyn Amir: This is a very poetic story, actually. So when I was trying to transition out of assisting, I went to meetups, there was a and I met this guy who was this kind of starving indie film editor. And we were kind of griping to each other about our situations. And he was struggling financially. And he wanted to edit more studios, or he wanted to work on more studio stuff. And he was willing to assist but he couldn't break in. He's just this indie film editor. And I was stuck assisting and then wanted to edit. So I told him, Listen, and he would tell me, I'm, you know, I have too many indies coming my way. I don't know what to do with them. But I don't feel bad. I don't want to turn them down. So it's on Listen, give me one of the indie films that you don't have time to do. I'll do it. I want to prove myself, I want the editing credit. And so Lupe, was that movie that he wasn't, he wasn't able to do. And he passed it on to me, he stayed a supervising editor on it. And I did you know, everything he came, he gave me notes, he would stay involved. And we became really good friends. And I also learned premiere on that project. Well, then a show called Z Nation looked for editors who were willing to go on location and who knew Premier. And because, and they all had, they had a ton of guys already, they wanted at least one woman, so to round out the team. And so I got the job. When I worked on the nation, I met this other editor, Greg Serrata, who was working on another other episodes, and we became friends, because we were both brought in from LA. And I don't know if anybody here knows what it's like to work on location. But it can be kind of lonely, whenever all the people in the area go home to their families. So we became friends in on location. And then now after Z Nation, he got hired on 911, season two, and he said, Listen, I know you're an editor. But do you want to assist me on this gig? And I was like, no, actually, I want to keep pursuing editing jobs. But there's this other guy who's this in the editor who would really love to start assisting. And he's really good with sound design. And I know you really want sound design. Meet him, Brian, meet Greg. And it was a bromance, they did so well together. And then within a season, Brian became an editor on the show, too. So fast forward to now they had a seat open up, Greg gave me a call and said, Hey, Sean, do you want to join on 911 team. And I said, of course. And so now I'm working with Greg and with Brian, and with Charles and with a bunch of other people who I love on the show. And it's such a close circle where I helped Brian and Brian helped me. And now we're both working on the show together.
Zack Arnold: And I love this whole idea of all of this coming together where you or Brian or anybody else in this story is trying to help the other person, put them in a position where they can move them forward, but also know that they're providing value and filling that gap. But there's one part of this that I'm very curious about, with hindsight, knowing what ended up happening to Brian, would you have done one season of assisting to get bumped up to editor? I was guaranteed it if they had said you could if Greg said you get one season, you're going to be an assistant and then I guarantee you'll cut would you have and I'm gonna put this in quotes for people listening, would you have taken a step backwards? So you could go back to editor a year later.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: I'm gonna divert a little bit. So in 2020, of course, it was a depressing year for many people. And for me also, I was just starting to build momentum and getting some interviews as an editor, but on like Union shows, but they fell falling through. And I remember even meeting you for a digital hot seat at one point during Eddie's or edit fest or something. And yeah, we were talking and then you were like, just keep doing what you're doing. Like, yeah,
Zack Arnold: Notice the worst advice. It's so annoying. All the time. All the time. But you probably I don't know if you remember that. I was I remember chatting. I don't remember giving the advice. But I remember chatting, yes. Yeah.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: So I was very stuck and depressed and like not sure what to do. And so you said just keep doing what you're doing. And in that time frame, I was thinking hmm, I wish I maybe I should have stayed and done that season for Greg and I would have been pumped up and There were a few other shows and projects similar where I could have done that and, and someone else did and got bumped up. But you know what, I wouldn't have had this other stuff that I edited as experience. And in the end, I did wind up editing on on 911. So, you know, it worked out, I don't think you can dwell too much on what if you just have to do what's true to you? Some people have to take a step back, and that's totally okay. But you know, it doesn't mean that it's wrong not to.
Zack Arnold: Well, speaking of hindsight, are you glad that you kept doing what you were doing? Yes, yeah, I have a multitude of students right now that are in the square center of, it's never going to happen. And my advice is, you're doing everything, right. Just keep doing what you're doing. And they have that doubt of, I don't know, and I'm just, I've seen it happen over and over and over, I know the difference between your strategy sucks, and you need to change your strategy, you need to change your systems, versus everything you're doing is right, you just need time.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: I'm not ashamed to say I've, I've spent a few days if not more, like curling up in bed, you know, in despair of what's gonna happen to my career, and, you know, no one's gonna ever hire me and, and all that stuff, and not foreign to it at all. And it's crazy what a year or two can do, just from the universe and how things worked out. And a movie that I did four years ago, or whatever, suddenly coming back to my life, you know,
Zack Arnold: yeah, and I want to talk about that, because there's a part of it, where, and this is going back to something, I put a pin in this use of the word lucky, a lot could say, Boy, you sure got lucky. Your first indie film was nominated for an Eddie, that's amazing, I must be nice. Let's talk a little bit more about all of the hidden components behind the scenes that while we can't definitively prove are the reason are probably one of the reasons that you had so much support to get that nomination because it takes other people to both recognize the work, but also recognize the name behind the work, because for those that don't see kind of the the awards machine behind the scenes, the paradox of choice and the analysis, paralysis is very, very real. It's one thing to see nominations publicly and say, oh, there are five options here. And I can objectively make my own personal decision by watching these five options. But to get nominations, there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of submissions, it is literally impossible to watch everything and objectively say, here's the best craft in this specific category. So it again comes down to relationships. So this, we're going to kind of be reverse engineering to an end result. But this is really getting a squarely into this conversation of what it truly means to provide value to others first, and how that can circle back around. So what's your theory, and I think you have a pretty good working theory of why you probably ended up getting nominated for something most people had never seen or heard of before. It wasn't put in front of them.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: So I guess I should backtrack and say that in 2017, someone without asking me nominated me for the editors Guild Board of Directors. And I had no idea what that meant. And I was like, Okay, I guess I'll run and see what happens. And then I somehow got elected and started serving. And I only thought that I have to attend meetings and just like, say, my opinion if asked or something it but I didn't realize that the Board of Directors actually can do, you know, passes, decisions and does things for the membership. And this goes back to what I was saying about wanting to help people because it's the right thing to do. And having people have an easier way up than I did paving the way you know. And so I started doing stuff as part of the Board of Directors, I especially started helping people with their hours for health care for people outside of the industry, you need a certain to work a certain amount of hours so that you have healthcare continuously every year. And so sometimes when we fell shy, like 10, or five hours or whatever, it's kind of crazy, where people and their whole families can lose their health care. So I was kind of upset by that, because I would see this happen to people I knew. And I was like we need to create a system to to address this. So sort of buffer system. And I always really am a believer of what people are always saying that you are the union and that we have to look out for each other. And so I was like why can't we help each other keep our hours sometimes people need somebody that doesn't matter who is going to be so Why can't someone matchmake and find people who need hours and people who need workers. So I started this Facebook group where people can submit anonymously through me and they're not embarrassed to say hey, I need some hours. And so I would post on their behalf and kind of connect people, well, that's great. But what if I'm busy, this needs to be a self sustaining program. So I joined the editors guild website committee, and I was able to convince the website committee and the board to create an area on the website called member to member where we people can list if they need hours. And so anybody can go and see, oh, I need a guy for a weekend or I need somebody to cover me it was on the MPI hours list, and then they feel good about helping other people. And then it just happens automatically. And I don't need to do anything. I don't even know how many people are being helped, because it's just happening, you know, on its own. So that kind of caused something I didn't expect, people now knew me as the health care gal, like the person who, you know, people would come to me when they need hours, or people who are getting helped also wanted to help other people. So it was like this pay forward thing, which was nice. And like people were coming up to me on the lot during my lunch break, who I didn't even recognize, say, Hey, your shrine, right? You do the health care thing. And I'm like, cool, I guess. But I'm just happy that I was able to help people, people who were couples who were about to give birth, and they weren't going to run out of the health insurance, right before the birth. And people were dealing with cancer treatments, all sorts of crazy, amazing stories, that the community was able to come together and help them without even knowing that they had to that they were dealing with that. So I guess that kind of put my name out there. And also on the board as being a board representative. But I do still think that if the art itself wasn't good enough, if the product if the movie itself was not well edited, I would not have gotten that nomination. But I did get people to watch it when it was up for submission, because they knew I worked on it. And they were curious. So you know, while I think there was a contribution to my name being known, it wasn't the sole country contributor because I think the work itself was strong.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. And I'm so glad that you mentioned that. Because I didn't want to give the impression Well, hey, great, great job using your networking skills to get yourself a nomination, right? Because if the work sucked all those people that you had helped to watch it and said, boy, okay, so sure glad I got my hours, but you can't cut our way out of a paper bag, right, you wouldn't have the nomination. So but my point is, you also need both. Because I think the the assumption that I hear from so many people, whether it's early in their careers, when they have this vision, I'm going to be on the stage someday, too. And that's what I'm working towards. All I need to do is create great work, you can't just create great work and put it out there into a vacuum and assume people are going to discover your work. And based on the merit of your creative choices alone, you will get a nomination, it does not work that way. There are entire machines, studios are spending millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars to get the right screeners in front of the right people at the right time. So they can make sure people are watching the right things to then make it based on merit. So it's a much larger and more complicated machine. And for you this my guess is the the odds of somebody having known about this and they're being buzzed based on the merit alone never would have happened, right doesn't speak to the quality of your work it speak to to the fact that it was on HBO, Max Latina and like, it's no, like you said there was no names in front of or behind the camera. So the reason people made the choice, and this is the really important part. The reason that people said, my time is valuable. And I'm willing to dedicate 90 minutes of my life to watching this is the value that Shiran Shiran brought to my life first, then they saw the merit of your work. And that combination of the two together, I believe is probably a big part of why you got to where you did with the nomination. There's one other thing that I want to point out very, very quickly. It's a little bit of a tangent, but I swear to God, it needs to be said, because when you mentioned this, it just it really angered me you didn't anger me, but the concept did the fact that people can be embarrassed that they need hours, how broken is our system, that somebody is embarrassed that they don't have enough hours to keep their health care? Oh, believe I can't even get started with the fact that that's an emotion that we are even allowed to have. And we are conditioned to think is okay, if you're helping to change that I really appreciate
Shiran Carolyn Amir: I come I come from public health care in Israel. So
Zack Arnold: you're just like, seriously, I'm scratching my head like this is a thing. I mean, it's insane.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: I had I had a lot of adjustment to go for when I moved to the US and and the fact that that people may not be able to have health care, just because they work in a certain job is insane.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. And the reason that I bring that up is that it's a small part of a much larger issue, which is I'm embarrassed, I don't have my hours or I'm embarrassed that I'm exhausted and I'm burned out or I'm embarrassed that I'm depressed or that I suffer from anxiety. These are all conditions of being in a system that's so completely broken and beyond repair and And the reason I love having these conversations is because I'm hoping somebody's listening to the conversation right now, thinking, I've been feeling really bad about the fact that I'm missing my hours and scared, I'm going to lose them. But I'm embarrassed to reach out. This is the system's fault. This is not yours. What I want what I want everybody to do, like this would be an example. Fuck the system, this is your fault. I need my hours, can somebody help me because I'm in the middle of a broken system? Yeah, about us, we didn't screw this up, we're not the problem,
Shiran Carolyn Amir: it's a lot to navigate, you have to also think about the whole social media aspect. And people want to project success project that they're that they're successful. So posting, you know, in a group with 1000s of people, I need hours, please help me it kind of fray, it bursts the success bubble a little bit. And so and I've had, like, you know, award winning editors come up to me quietly telling me that they need hours in and I, I'm aware that that there, they need to be accommodated for, in a discreet way, because it's kind of a delicate balance. And, you know, maybe it's not warranted, maybe nobody would look down on that if they said they need hours. Or maybe, maybe it is everybody's situation is different. But what I felt like was the good compromise is that list on the guild website, it's kind of tucked away, and it's in a tab. And, you know, if if you really want to go look and see who needs hours, you can, but it's not blasted out or posted anywhere, you know.
Zack Arnold: So I'm assuming then, yeah, this is the you know, it's the this is the one idea that you had, that you've implemented, and you've now just, you know, walked away and said, Well, I did that, and I did my thing. I'm gonna focus on my career, or are there other things that you've done for the Union and for the members and the people in this industry that they might not be aware you spearheaded the whole thing?
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Ah, yeah. It the funny thing is kind of, it's a little bit like a drug. You know, I did something and it was super helpful for people, and especially the job board. I mean, the the the NPI hours list is nice, but really, what was a game changer was putting a job board on the guild website. And so I'm very, very proud of that, and website committee, but you kind of like, oh, what more can we do now? Like, how a more can we like, improve things and push for things? I think this and I remember, I think I introduced you with Kathy, but our union leader, Catherine Pola, when I was very early on in my board, you know, term, my first four term, I kind of was saying we were hanging out, like a event. And I said to her, you know, it's really weird about this healthcare hours, like, I wish we could do something. And she was like, you know, I agree. I said, I wish I could do something, too. And I was like, Wait, you're, you're not the one who does? Who makes all the decisions? And then that turns out, we are the union. And and oh, wait, I'm a board member. Oh, wait, this is the main thing I need to go and think about this. And how we can you know, and, and, and work with her to make this happen. And that really empowered me it was all from like this kind of I had this like spider man meme thing. I was like, Wait, you're not the one and then and then it's like, I'm the one, you know?
Zack Arnold: Yeah. Isn't it amazing, though, to have that realization, where you just assume? Well, if things are going to change, there's nothing that I could do. But I'm sure that whether it's a president or an executive or whatever structure we're talking about, as long as I could get to them, things would change this idea of the top down hierarchy, right? If we can get things to change from the top down, well, then we're all going to be taken care of. And as we've seen, and this is going to be the next kind of direction that I want to go with this conversation is this philosophy that I've had for years. And the reason I do what I do now, is that if there's going to be fundamental systemic change into the way that we conduct ourselves, and we do business, when we find a more sustainable way to do the work that we love in this industry, it has to change from the ground up. And to go to the top of you know, maybe not the top of the Union, so to speak, but the top of one of the guilds, that's a powerful Guild and a powerful union to be like, Yeah. Wouldn't it be nice if that stuff could happen? You're like, whoa, this fundamentally changes my understanding of how things get done. Oh, maybe it is my own responsibility to actually do something about this and not wait for others to fix the problem. Right. And so I've had that similar realization.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: It's also Yeah, it's also a realization on the her role and my role like that. It's always I think, for people who aren't very well versed, and in unions or whatever, like, she is not dictating the policy of everything. And you know, she is not the sole decision maker. There's a board of directors that is in charge and who hire her. And so it was this realization that I'm a board member, and I have a voice in this too. And you know, it's not Not just on me. But it's also on me to come up with a plan if I really care about this, you know, of course, Cathy also cared about this. And Kathy was, is doing many other things that she cares about. But it's my job to help her and to provide ideas, and also ways to do the ideas. It's not just to think about, let's do this, and then leave everybody else to figure it out. It's about coming up with a feasible plan, and then helping follow through with it. So that just kind of got me excited to do more things. And I don't know exactly which one you're alluding to. But when the contract negotiations started, there was you covered this in your podcasts, there was a big strike authorization vote coming up. And it was very imperative that we get a high response rate and also a high, yes, vote, turnout, and I saw that there was gonna be a rally happening in New York, I saw there was gonna be something happening in Atlanta, but nothing in Hollywood, even though it was kind of focused around the Hollywood locals, but also the other unions across the country, or the other locals. So it was like this late night text that I was like, Hey, can we use the guild parking lot, because I remember there was a member three years ago, but now four years ago, who would just draw on her car in support of a contract, but she did that on her own Selena Alvarez. And she did that on her own. Nobody else did it. She posted photos. I thought that was cool. And I remember that. And I was like, let's do this on mass. Let's have let's use the parking lot and just have cars drive through and paint on them. And even you, you were there.
Zack Arnold: So it was I'm still chipping little pieces of that paint off to this day.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Oh, no, we need to teach you how to remove it.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, no, I clearly didn't know what I was doing. I think I just sent it through a carwash. And to this day, a little, you know.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: I think you can shave it, I think you can shave it,
Zack Arnold: Which I thought it was like soap like when they use the soap at the carwash and like it'll just wash off. I had, I was a moron, that we get to do an entire podcast on my inability to manage stupid daily decisions like that. But essentially, what you're alluding to is where I wanted to go next is that this goes far bigger now than just providing value to a couple of people in your circle, or even providing value to the members of your guild by creating these services. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the next major direction that I see you going. And that I think is absolutely imperative for all of us to understand is that if things are going to change? And yes, right now, this is a union conversation. I think this conversation goes far beyond just talking about union politics. But if we're going to keep it within union politics for a second, the only way things are going to change is if it's no longer local against local. And it's all the locals united and realizing that it's not editors versus DPS versus the camera department versus the costume, local. It's we are creative human beings in this industry, trying to not only survive, but thrive and do it sustainably. And what's stopping us is all of the constraints that the quote unquote producers or studios are putting on us the only way we do it is together. And you're one of those voices that spearheading bringing together all of these disparate little guilds and locals into one unified voice
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Right. Um, so basically what happened from this car paint that was just me and a bunch of other people who are the the young workers group of local 700. Taffy was game we did the the, the first the first weekend. And it was, it blew up so much that the media showed up. The ITSC vice president showed up gave a speech and a ton of members across locals came to volunteer to paint on cars. And it was so heartwarming, because as you know is that not a lot of them ever meet post people. And so this was the first time where a lot of them have ever met us. And our people were walking around that parking lot rubbing their eyes in disbelief that all these other locals were coming in and chipping in and driving through and we painted hundreds of cars. And it got so successful, it expanded to another weekend. And it was the beginning of a very strong dialogue. And I'm really good friendships that I've created with members and other locals and that's. The key to fair bargaining for next time is that we all do come in United and we know each other and we know what our work life is like, like what struggles do they deal with? What struggles do we deal with? And we all come in knowing that.
Zack Arnold: So here's the next thing that I want to dig into that is going to maybe kind of somewhat sort of stay within union politics. But I want to think bigger as well. If I'm listening to this right now, and I'm hearing all of the things that you're saying, All of this is great and you're inspiring me, but you're a member of the board and you have all these inside connections and you're doing all these union things. How could I possibly make a difference? Well, what can I do if I want to be a part of creating this positive systemic change but For me, but the people around me whether it's just my colleagues, co workers, I'm not a member of the board of directors and I don't know people in guilds and whatnot, so I can't really do anything.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Ah, that's not true Zack, let me tell you how. So I did, I started doing the health care thing, even before it was really on the board or not even as a board member, I just did it, I just started a Facebook group. And so things can happen if you just do there are if you're a member of the Union, I also help think of the idea of a volunteer page. So editors guild.com/volunteer, that's where members can sign up for tasks. And it doesn't, you don't have to be on a committee, you don't have time to do committee meetings and all that there are so many different tasks that need to be done. There's people who need to do the texting campaigns, when we're doing texting for really important messages, or social media amplifiers, if we really need someone to, we really need to emphasize the message or a post, then it's two seconds to just share a post, there's you could do a record voiceover when we're going to create educational materials, there's all this stuff that is sorted by time commitment. So that's if you're a member, you can also be a stored, I won't get into it. But if you're a member, there's a volunteer page. And it's all sorted by time commitment, if you're a supporter, I mean, there's so many picket lines that need need bodies, you know, there's those petitions that need signing right now, the SNL post production team is trying to get a IASC contract, there's a petition out there for it, there's so many ways that supporters can help. There's always like, you know, fundraising. And, you know, there's a lot of things that anybody can do. So I don't agree with that. If I'm not in the union, or in the know, you can still do so much. And it's actually very helpful for people outside of the know, to speak up, because it's easy for us to have this narrow view of how things work and understanding and just assume that everybody understands. But it's a lot, it's very helpful. When members say to me, Hey, this thing on the website doesn't make sense. I don't understand how to get to navigate from here to there. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's not super intuitive, is it and it's easy for me to not know that because I know where it is. But if I see it from their perspective, then that helps. So it's actually really valuable for non active people to start getting active,
Zack Arnold: Some of those resources I wasn't even aware of. And I'm very glad that we were able to share them, and people know that they're there. So I'm glad that there are more options for people to get involved. But all I heard with all the things you were listening was, oh, god sounds like a lot of time. I'm just trying to survive. Right now. I'm just trying to put in my 60 70 80 hours a week, I've got my family. And most importantly, with a little time that I have left over between working a crazy job and trying to manage my family, I gotta get out there, and I get to build connection so I can get the next gig. So I just I don't think there's just not enough time, none of hours in the day for me to be able to volunteer. What do you think about that?
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Well, they kind of go together, you know, aside from actually being something that's good to do, because it's the right thing to do, because you're helping and serving your greater good. You're also networking. There's a lot of really great people on the board of directors. There's Oscar nominees and all sorts of amazing people edit amazing things on the board of directors on the committees, sure shop stewards, who are textures who or whatever, or the young workers group, or you know, and so you can meet them continuously while you're volunteering. You do two birds, one stone.
Zack Arnold: Yeah and that's it. I've I assumed that you were going to go in that direction. And I was trying to feed you and gently nudge you that way. But I'm so glad that you hit that so eloquently. I'll take you one step further. Yes, please go ahead, continue,
Shiran Carolyn Amir: is people want to know that you're a good person. And you are showing them not telling them that you're a good person by doing good. And let me tell you, I after the nomination, I started talking to agencies, and I interviewed and I ended up signing with innovative artists. And they actually really cared about the stuff I do with the union. And they were really interested that I came up with a car painting event. They were like, we still see those cars everywhere. That's you. And I was like, Yep, and guess what, they pitched me to a show. They pitched me to a producer and told them not about the cars I think but about the health care hours. And I got asked about it in a job where they asked that a producer actually cared that I was helping other members finding hours for their health care, and they asked me to speak about it. And I was like, Whoa, there's kind hearted producers out there.
Zack Arnold: And I was just gonna point that out. This is so key because this so easy to make the assumption will the producers and the directors and the writers, they don't care about any of that stuff. And guess what some of them don't. Some of them just want to get their credits and they want to make their money and get their awards. And that's just the way that the industry is, and that's fine. But when you put a very specific energy out into the world, that energy is reciprocated back to you. So what you did, by putting good out into the world as you attracted the good producers, and the good directors that also want to bring good and positive impact in the world, and simultaneously, make some money and earn some credits and work on some cool stuff. But they also see the greater value in providing value to people first. So by putting yourself out there, you attract really cool people in return, which I didn't realize when I started doing this, but the number of cool, amazing human beings that I have in my life now, because I just put myself out there, you attract more people with that similar energy. And you're now seeing that it's not just about, well, I'm doing good in the world. And that's one part of my life. The other part of my life is just the endless rat race to get the next job and the next gig and the next paycheck. And the next credit, these two can intertwine. And it can be the same objective,
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Because ultimately, I think a lot of producers want good people on their show. And so you know, what a better way to show that you're a good person by having all this stuff that you've done without an expectation of return just because it was the right thing to do. You're showing and not telling. You know, I think it makes sense for them to want good people on their shows and not assholes.
Zack Arnold: Well good. People are gonna want good people on their shows, right? The assholes are going to want anybody that they can get, they can do the job that's going to allow them to take advantage of their talents and their time and exploit them. And there's plenty people out there. But yeah, good people want to work with good people.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: It was just kind of amazing to me that it was so much so that my agency actually pitch me on, based on the good that I that I did.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, isn't that amazing. So again, I want to just really hammer this point home, this is not more hours in your day, this is not well, I've got all these hours that I have to work, then I have to go out there and I have to find the work. And I've got to go to the networking events or the panels or whatever. And now I've got to find more time to volunteer. No, it's these are not all mutually exclusive. And adding more hours on your calendar, you're able to combine all of them such that a part of designing the path you want in your career is providing value to others to help them move forward on their path. It all comes together and works together. And it's like magic. You don't believe it until you see it happen. Once you believe it happened. It's like you said, it's a drug, you become addicted to it, which is why eight years and over 300 podcast episodes later, I still do it. Now because I make money being a podcaster. To this day, I've yet to figure out how to actually earn a profit with my podcast, it's still at best breaks even. But the amount of good that it puts out there. But more importantly, the amount of amazing human beings I have met because I have a podcast, I would never in a million years take any of this back to school part.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Yeah, yes. Let me ask you something. It's kind of a rhetorical question. But what do you think is a better networking opportunity, meeting somebody at a bar for like in a mixer with a lot of people and music and stuff, and talking to them for five minutes and have them talking to other people, and then kind of everybody forgetting about everything, or being in a committee and working together on a project over a bunch of meetings, and actually doing some volunteer work like a bunch of locals got together and painted homeless youth center? Together?
Zack Arnold: Yeah in my mind, there's, there's no question which one of these is better? And actually, this is a really good question. I'm glad that you brought this up. And I want to break down why I want people to understand the tremendous difference between these two. And both of them, by the way, are networking. People hate the word networking, it just kind of gives them a pit in their stomach, Oh, I hate networking. I'm not bad at networking. Both of these are networking. Here's the difference. One is collecting transaction and contacts. The second is building relationships. So if you're gonna go and let's just assume you don't know who's going to be at either. So I'm going to take out the strategic factor of the right people that I want to build a relationship, we're going to be at this place. So I'm going to even the playing field, we've got bar and bowling mixer, which by the way, there's nothing wrong with that. But in this scenario, we've got bar and bowling mixer versus car painting or whatever the committee is. You show up to one you walk around the room. Oh, what are you working on right now? Oh, me too. Okay. Well, this is what I'm working on. Yeah, I'm trying to work on this next. Oh, yeah. I like to show to Hey, can I get your card and we will, you know, maybe we don't do cards anymore, because I'm 100 years old. And people have ways of like using Instagram and all these other scanning codes. And every time I go to these events, they're like, oh, put out your phone. I'm like, I'm 100 I don't know what you're doing. Which is why I do most of my networking strategically from home but the parents 100 Zack I'm getting there. But the point being the one of them. It's a game of quantity. The others a game of quality, when you go to these other events, yeah, you might meet a similar number of people or even less people are there. So in some people's minds, well, there's going to be less opportunities for me to meet people, because there's only going to be 10, or 15, at this event versus 150, at this bowling mixer, but it's the quality of the relationships that you build over time. Because you're collaborating towards a common goal. It's not I am here, I want to tell my story, maybe you know of a gig, maybe you can help me out. It's we are here to help others together with a common strategic goal. That's where the bonds build. And like you said, you want to be able to help people that you know that you trust that you like that, you know, are also putting good into the world. Mixer is just kind of an I'll see who I can meet to make some friends. And
Shiran Carolyn Amir: A lot of this is forgettable interactions.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, absolutely. And again, there's nothing wrong with that, though, one of the this strategies that I give my students is I actually break down the three levels of your network. One of those levels is your peer group. If you want to build a peer group of people that are doing similar work to you and just make friends and get people to reach out to if you have a question about this or that or the other thing, mixers are a great way to do that. As far as strategically building the right relationships to move your career forward. I don't think that mixers really offer that opportunity. But I think the kind of mixers that you're talking about, that are more advocacy based, build stronger relationships where it is still a little bit, hit or miss about who the people are that are going to be there. Because for example, and this is going to be very much hyperbole, but let's assume that I want to work in scripted 30 Minute Comedy. And every single person at the car washing event only does prestige 60 minute drama, well maybe doesn't strategically helped me with my next steps, but I still get to build stronger relationships with people that might know others that work in 30 minutes, scripted comedy. So again, it's the question is do you want to play a game of quantity? Or do you want to play a game of quality, you're talking about playing a game of quality. You also do it in quantity, which I think is really smart.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Well, smart, but also time consuming. But yeah, but it's not just quality. But also, if you're gonna do a project like that, you have to meet a couple of times and plan it and stuff. So that's more interactions with the same people. And then they're more likely to remember you and start thinking of you more than just one interaction at a bar.
Zack Arnold: Exactly. So I want to start winding it down, because I want to be respectful of your time. And as to editors, I want to make sure we're pretty good with keeping this to time. But I'm curious because we've covered a lot of different ground a lot of different concepts, we've told a fair amount of your story. Is there a story or an idea that's really important to share that we haven't covered yet?
Shiran Carolyn Amir: I think the how I met Dan is kind of interesting.
Zack Arnold: Yeah let's do that let's I want to hear more about how that happened. Because I know a lot of people could get use out of it.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: So when I was we started my new circle of contacts in and scripted. I went to these mixers. And I applied to the ACE internship program. It didn't get in, but I created a bunch of friends through that. And I was so like I said earlier, I was I went to when I was still in Israel, I learned after effects. And the school that taught me after effects. I was still on their mailing list, even though I lived here. So one day, I got an email saying hey, this bigshot Hollywood editor is going to be speaking at our school. Everybody should come listen to him. And I wrote to the head of the school saying hey, do you mind introducing me? And his name was Dan Lepanto. Do you mind introducing me with to him so that if when he comes back to LA, he will be willing to talk to me? And so she was like, Oh, just reach out to him on Facebook. And I was like, what? You can reach out to people on Facebook and it's legitimate. It's okay, like I that, like my mind was blown that you can cold reach out to people like that. And that's considered okay. So I reached out to him. First of all, he was giving a talk in Israel. His name is Dan Leventhal. So I, you know, wrote to him this long message in Hebrew and introduced myself and said, Oh, we have this mutual contacts. And, and I waited a month, and I didn't hear back. And usually a lot of people and Me included would say, okay, he's not interested and forget about it. For some reason, I decided to send it again. After a month, just see what happens. So I sent it again. And then I get a one line response. Sorry, I don't speak Hebrew.
Zack Arnold: I love that. Yeah, absolutely love that. We just automatically assume I bothered them. I've offended them. They're not interested in helping me and it all came down to ta he couldn't read your message.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Exactly. So, you know, like I said, he had a very Israeli sounding name. He was in Israel giving a talk at my school. It didn't even occur to me that he would know Hebrew. So I translated the whole message, sent it again. We started chatting he invited me to his editing office and we talked and he took Intro Just in what I was up to, he's like, send me stuff you're editing. And I didn't want to send him any reality stuff. But once I started editing shorts for film students, and I had a pretty rough cut I was pretty proud of I sent him that and he was like, Oh, this is pretty good. By the way, I'm starting an indie this Friday, and my normal assist isn't available, or she couldn't do the full ride or something. Do you want to be my assist? And I was like, hell yeah, I'm available. And I was not available, but I became available. And so that's how we worked together for like a year and a half, just the two of us on an indie film. And this guy had ended at that, you know, he's edited a ton of big movies, but by then, some of them Marvel movies, Iron Man, Iron Man, two, and other kind of fabros, Cowboys and Aliens and elf and a million other movies. And so this was like excellent training for me on scripted television, he hired me because I knew avid for reality TV. So he knew I wouldn't delete everything or break anything. And so it was a great relationship. And then he kept we kept staying in touch. And he'd become a mentor ever since just from, you know, a message in Hebrew that I had to send twice.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I love that as a story to cap it off. And one thing that I just want to emphasize that is even more important here. And I tell this to my students all the time, we get it into our heads that if there's some opportunity available, we have to be the most qualified candidate, we have to meet all the criteria, we have to have the best credits, we have the most experience, we know all the hard skills, and you had the necessary skills for Dan, to consider you. But ultimately, it's that you are the most recent person in front of him at exactly the right time, which so many people would say, once again, sure on, you sure. Got lucky. Must be nice. But luck is the meeting of preparation and opportunity, he had the opportunity and you are prepared for it. But think about all the people that Dan has in his network, elf, the Iron Man's Thor, etcetera, etcetera, on and on and on. Do you really believe you are the most qualified candidate at that exact moment to be his assistant editor on that job on that day, he had plenty of people in his network that probably had more experience than you. But number one, they probably wouldn't have worked for that rate. And number of to something about this just felt right because of your interaction, because of your level of experience. And for him, lack of experience was actually a value for the NIC lack of experiences based on lack of credits for you at the time, that was actually a value because he knew he couldn't get the A listers to do it. So the preparation met opportunity. And boy, did you get lucky,
Shiran Carolyn Amir: I created the luck,
Zack Arnold: You created the luck. That's exactly what I talked about is that you can't wait for the luck or hope for it, you have to create it. Now that doesn't mean that luck, it doesn't exist. People always say Oh, Zack, you say luck doesn't exist. I hate it when they say that. Luck absolutely exists. We just describe far too much of our world and the way that things come together to luck, when I think that we have a lot more ability to write the next chapters on our story, knowing that luck will be a component, but it doesn't have to be the driving force. Yeah, so there's a little bit of luck here. But I believe that you made the vast majority of this happen, and you just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: It's true, I think it's the best spot to be in is, or the sweet spot is creating your luck. So going out there and creating the opportunity for the luck to kind of manifest, but also putting good out there and meeting people while you're doing good. It's a great combo.
Zack Arnold: I could not agree more. That's the whole reason that you and I talked today and in the spirit of meeting people would be a horrible misstep. If I didn't ask, Would you like to connect with those that hear this today? And would like to connect with you? And if so, how do they do that?
Shiran Carolyn Amir: I would say Facebook Messenger. But I want to see if people are actually helping people I don't really like I'm not really into the Hey, I just listened to your podcast, here's my resume kind of thing. So reach out to me if you really connect with what I'm saying. And you have examples to give me of how that relates to your life.
Zack Arnold: I'm glad you put it that way. Because that's exactly the way that I teach it in my program. If you're not going to lead with value to others first, do not bother reaching out and trying to build a relationship. I have many pet peeves. One of my biggest is Hi, my name is these are the things that I've done. My resume is attached for your reference. If you hear of anything, could you please let me know or pass me along? That is the absolute worst way to start a conversation and build a relationship. So I'm glad that you just kind of put it out there. Like that's your approach. Don't even waste my time. You said it in a much nicer way. But I'm gonna say it that way, don't waste Shiran's time. If you want to provide value with her and you want to provide value to others together, send her a Facebook message.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Yeah, it's all about being unique and showing who you really are and not the templates and all that.
Zack Arnold: Oh, isn't it cool, though, that you're now at the point where people are reaching out to you as opposed to you having to reaching out to everybody else. It's pretty cool that you created that world.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: It's insane. But yeah,
Zack Arnold: It's not insane but it's but it's cool.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: But 'm very honored. Yeah,
Zack Arnold: As you should be. Well, I'm honored to have had this time to have you on the podcast today. And looking forward to all the good we can do with this conversation. I want to thank you for taking the time to be here today and also being the one to reach out to me to pitch the idea so that I could see the value that it brings to both me and the show, but also to those that are listening. cannot thank you enough.
Shiran Carolyn Amir: Well, thank you, Zack, also for what you're doing with the community and with helping people it's also inspiring to me too.
Zack Arnold: Well, I appreciate that.
