Episode Highlights

• Christina’s origin story of why she chose to become a grief counselor (she didn’t lose anyone yet)
• Why Zack calls the COVID pandemic, The Great Correction
• Why Zack decided to make a career transition
• The (untold) Christopher Rush story
• How Christina discovered invisible loss
• What is Mental Stacking and how is it done
• The Survivor Self and Thriver Self and why it’s important to distinguish them
• Mental stacking with Zack – finding and recognizing an invisible loss
• What’s a ‘plug in’ and how can it help to reconnect with your Thriver Self

Useful Links

• I Was Tired of Putting My Kids to Bed via FaceTime Every Night. Here’s What I Did About It
• GO FAR: The Christopher Rush Story
• The Invisible Losses Library
• Invisible Loss book
• Severance Is Not Only the Dystopian Future of Workplace Burnout…In Many Ways We’re Already There
• The difference between exhaustion and burnout (and my dirty little secret)

About Guest

Christina Rasmussen is an acclaimed grief educator and bestselling author of Second Firsts (Hay House, 2013), Where Did You Go? (Harper One, 2018), and Invisible Loss (Sounds True, 2024). In 2010, four years after her thirty-five-year-old spouse passed away from Stage 4 colon cancer, she created the Life Reentry process, which launched her on a mission to bring compassion, grace, and validation to thousands, while simultaneously establishing an exit from what she termed the Waiting Room.

Christina holds a master’s degree in guidance and counseling (University of Durham). She is currently finishing her master of fine arts degree in painting and drawing (Academy of Art). Her grief work has been featured on ABC News and in Women’s World, the Washington Post, and the White House Blog.

In her spare time, she is learning to play the piano and planning her first trip to the edge of space. She works and lives in Austin, Texas, with her husband, Eric, and their two dogs.

Facebook, Follow our guest on Instagram, Click to visit our guest’s website

Transcript

Zack Arnold: I'm here today with Christina Rasmussen, you are an acclaimed to grief educator, you're the best selling author of three books: Second Firsts, Where Did You Go and we're going to talk more about your new book Invisible Loss. We're going to talk a whole lot more about your story and where those books came from as well. I want to make sure that everybody knows that you have a master's degree in guidance and counseling. You're also currently finishing another Master of Fine Arts Degree in Painting and Drawing. Your work on grief has been featured on ABC News, in Women's World, Washington Post, The White House Blog, and I'm sure many others to come soon. So having said all that, you could not be in a better place at a better time to have today's conversation. So Christina, it is a pleasure to connect with you today and share this conversation with my audience.

Christina Rasmussen: Thank you for such a great intro. And I am, I'm feeling already at home, I feel like we've met before, even though we haven't, this is our first time meeting. And I can tell that you're someone that thinks things deeply, and you're able to get the most meaningful things in our lives immediately. And maybe, I don't know this, maybe that's why sometimes life can feel hard because you feel and know things that others are not aware of.

Zack Arnold: So it took you about 35 seconds to see deep within to the center of my soul. So clearly, you're pretty good at what you do. And I'm just I'm gonna put a disclaimer and a warning for people that are listening today is going to be a hard conversation, this is going to be a deep one, this is going to be an emotional conversation. But I want to start with a little bit of levity, which is that in your bio, you kind of have this throwaway line. And this throwaway line is it says in her spare time, Christina is learning to play the piano and planning her first trip to the edge of space. So I'm going to start with the most complicated question I've ever shared with my audience or with my guests before which is what?

Christina Rasmussen: Yes, you are. And Zack, can I just say this, you're awesome, because I have that in there. And we and we've done quite a few interviews, there's so many more to come. But nobody has said anything about it. About the space thing, nobody. And I was like, do people see it? Even my publisher, when I put it on in my bio, you know, they asked me what bio do you wanna use, and they edit it put in there, I was certain that we're going to take it out.

Zack Arnold: Or ask you about this, so much about you and your personality and your character. So this, to me is the story underneath a story. So let's start with you're planning a trip to the edge of space. Huh?

Christina Rasmussen: And this is for real, I have a ticket to go. And I'm going with a group of people. And there will be an announcement for that in this next year. I can't say a lot about the specifics. Because it's such an awesome mission. I wish I could I mean that it's amazing the group of people ongoing and, but but I am going it's scheduled for a specific time and and all that. I'm excited. And actually more. The most important thing about this is that because of everything that happened in my life, and we'll talk about that, too. I want to experience everything I want, and everything I can, especially the impossible things. There was a sentence I wrote in my very first book that went something like this, and people loved it that said, I have been through the unimaginable, and I can do the impossible. And I can do the impossible. And for anyone who's listening, who's struggled, not even having traditional losses in their life, having moments of the I call them moments of impact, I want you to know that because of those moments of impact. Because you have been altered, there's two choices you can make. One is to stay in that painful place where you feel like the world is completely taking over. And you can't be in control, or go completely crazy and original and unique and not caring about anyone and go after all the things that nobody is or nobody's thinking that it's possible. So the the going to the edge of space is a real thing. And Zack, thank you for seeing it. I'm shocked as to how nobody has said anything about it. Nobody has asked any questions. And and I'm scared. I'm excited. I want to say I'm scared again. Because that's part of this part of this experience. I know that when the day comes that we step on this thing and we're supposed to go I know that my heart will be beating very fast. I know they'll be saying to my kids you know I'll worry about them and how they're afraid. But I also think that their mom, them seeing their mom I have two daughters going aftershocks that's crazy things I used to also learn i i was going from my pilot life Since years ago, and I want the girls who were young and I would take them in all my in some of my lessons and fly, fly with them with another pilot with me. But there they are 10 years old saying, I can't believe I'm on a plane with my mom, that she's called flying with someone else like it was I wanted their reality to be shifted and altered. And so that's where their space thing comes from. I love space, I have a group of incredible friends in the space industry. We're very close. And it's a it's a, it's a world. And I highly recommend you getting involved. It's a world where miracles and weird things outside of this reality happen. And it's normal. They are adventurers and explorers, and they, their everyday life is so out of this world in many ways and the things they get to do. So I'm grateful to be part of that community as well.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I had a feeling that I will learn just as much from you about the answer to that question as the answer to tell me your story. What's your background? So I learned a lot about you and your character just from that. Thank you. So now that we started with a little bit of levity, now, we're probably going to go deep, and we're gonna go there fast. One of the discoveries that I've realized in talking to a lot of people, many people over the last 10 years about their success stories, but specifically talking to authors is that I always used to assume kind of from the cheap seats, that Oh, as an author, you you get a degree or multiple degrees you study and then you write about whatever it is, your topic is, and some people do that. But I've also found that most authors, and especially the best writers, their stories, and what they're writing about comes from a place of something very, very personal. They didn't just choose a subject and say, I'm an academic, and I'm going to share the information. There's a lot of lived truth and what they're writing about. I don't know if I've ever found somebody looks closer to that than you, the fat and so I want you to talk about what it is that you studied. What that led to happening in your life circumstantially and now has led to what you do, because you're this is fascinating to me. And it's,

Christina Rasmussen: it's still fascinating to me, I have to tell you, because I remember being in school, I went to study at Durham University in England, one of the best schools there, Oxford, Cambridge, Durham, they're the three, you know, some of Harry Potter scenes were filmed there with you. It's like you're in a different century, you know, and I was very proud of being there. And I was doing a Master's in Counseling. And it was time for us to choose our thesis. And I have to say, I love people, a lot. Like, the people I love, I love them deeply. And I could not imagine ever losing someone. I personally thought I could, I could never recover from that in my, in my fantasy world, in my thinking world, you know. And I went to my professor and said, I think I'm going to do with my thesis on the stage of grief. I want to be a grief counselor. And she turns around says to me, Christina, you're such a happy person. You know, there's me, right? Why would you want to study something so sad? And I said, I just cannot imagine what people go through another time. I did not know that in just, I would say, three or four years after that. Even less. My 31 year old husband was diagnosed with stage four colon cancer, which is very rare. And I want you to imagine him my last name is Danish, I not Danish. And I met him in Denmark. He was this Viking like human that was also genius. You know, number one, he looked like he was this good looking awesome human in every way and amazing father to our two daughters. And one day, we go in to get his test results and they called us both in and we knew something was up. And he gets diagnosed with a terminal it was it was stage four, it was terminal and, and Zack that day it's almost like we jumped into a parallel universe, our life, the way that it was before we were living at the time in Boston, our life. What it was like before, completely shifted is like it was it was like we became other people we changed our everyday life. And we spent three and a half years trying to save his life. While the same time raising the girls with no family close by all i My family lives in Greece, our families Denmark and Greece and with few friends Brian up who had just moved to Boston from California, and and I wish there was me. I wished it was me and I loved him. You know I couldn't understand and the time also want to say I used to receive data support grief support groups. So at Houston hospice, just before we moved to Boston, we also lived in Texas. I mean, I've traveled and lived in many different parts of the world. And I had no idea with all my professional staff, all of my academics, my thesis, my studying this, I had no idea what it really meant to, to lose someone you love so much your partner in life, he died at age 35. And I thought I was going to lose my mind. I couldn't understand how no books, no studies know anything, anyone. There were no words that could ever helped me, though there were no statements, there was nobody. Nobody could save me and nobody could help me. And I felt like I wasn't going to make and I was going to be there for my kids. And I made a vow or kind of a promise to myself at the time. And I said, If I ever, ever make it back to living a full life again, I will go back and get everyone else was also suffering. And I went and couldn't do the grief work at the time I went back to school, I got a postgraduate in human resource management, I went to the corporate world and in HR and work there. And then when I was ready, I resigned. And in 2010, I went back to get everyone else. That's how it started. Yeah,

Zack Arnold: what I find so fascinating about this is two things. One of which is the fact that the become deciding to choose the path of being a counselor and bereavement and hospice in grief coming before the passing of your husband like that. That's just crazy. To me, I can't even understand how it was Matt works in such mysterious ways.

Christina Rasmussen: Whoever is up there, the universe, God energy source, whatever it is, I was like, what? Why? Why me? What? When I made that decision, Zack, we were the healthiest, happiest, youngest people, there was no like, there was not even if it like, this was not going to be my this. This had nothing to do with me how to do with how, how do we help someone who's struggling, the losing the loves of their lives, their children, their spouses, their people.

And I still to this day, after all

these years, I say to myself, there's something, there's something there that for all of us, that makes no sense. But it makes all the sense in the world, in many ways, right?

Zack Arnold: And I think that what's so interesting about this too, and that I am not going to pretend to know anything about who the how the universe works, because nobody really does. But there there's something so unique and interesting about the fact that you learn this thing, and this was the path you chose being a really happy go lucky person like yes, it would make sense for you to say I want to be a bereavement or a grief counselor, if you'd experienced loss growing up where you lost a parent or a sibling, it would make total sense. But the fact that you chose that, and then this situation or circumstance chose you I don't believe that's a coincidence. I don't understand it. But I don't believe it's a coincidence.

Christina Rasmussen: Yeah, and, and every time I tried to kind of, you know, leave this path or say, this is a, this is an gotta have storage for that. And even now, I'm thinking after this book, you know, I want to be a painter. We'll talk we'll talk about identity and life and all that. But so far, every attempt, I'm not one of those authors that says, this is this is this, please make me be the best selling author of the world. So I can be this person. I tried very hard to walk away from this. And let me say, I was not allowed yet to leave this work. And specifically for this book, I tried to return the book, and I don't even know if share that but because this conversation is so real. I tried. And it was almost like, Christina, there's nothing you can do. This is gonna be written, this is gonna come out. And you're gonna be here to walk with it. And here we are. Death like Zack. Deadly. Obviously, something's up here.

Zack Arnold: It's very, it's very clear that this is your calling, whether you like it or not. Yeah, yeah. And another part of this that I think is so interesting to me is that when it comes to being a counselor or psychiatrist, psychologist, coach, whatever it might be, where you're supporting others, there are a whole host of skills that I think are necessary information that's necessary. But I think the key component of being the best at what you do or even being great at what you do is empathy. Oh my god, I can't imagine that there are more than a handful of grief counselors on the planet that have the experiences that you do, especially in the order that you've had them to create the level of empathy and understanding that you do at an extremely high level,

Christina Rasmussen: and why we are able to have this conversation. So like, personal and intimate and like I forget, we are recording, by the way I forget, I forget that it's just not you and me just sitting here talking. And we met at a cafe, and we're just sitting talking about, hey, tell me what's going on. And I want to know more things about you. Right? And, and I think that, that there are so many broken hearts in the world, and most of them are hidden. And most of them you can see, and we'll talk more about that too. But yes, that's how my path began. And I want to say also, since we have a lot of creative people hear and listening and people who kind of start projects, they don't know if they're ever going to work, they don't know what's going to happen. I don't know. I'm sure you can hear it. This is not my first language. I did not think when I wanted to or believe that could but I did not think I would have written three books here in the US. That also translated in other languages, but that I would have been given book deals by these major publishers this for anyone who has dreams and creating something that they believe is right for them. Nobody, I can tell you cannot be done. And I'll tell you this, I remember Troy resigned from the corporate job kind of thinking is this. I worked so hard to to grow and be promoted and to have life insurance, sorry, health insurance for my kids. And they were young and and I walked away from it thinking it was the right thing. But I knew I knew something else. I knew there was something that hadn't happened yet. Like it was almost like I was connecting to something I knew. So if you have that voice in your head, also, you're sitting in a cubicle because I was sitting in a cubicle. And I remember looking around and saying this is not right. Something's not right. Remember, like, I'm just like, everyone else is sitting there, right? And I walk out of that job, or resign and literally started a Facebook page, very simple. And I started writing whatever I felt that was and that was in 2010, whatever. And I remember how fast like when you stepping to the right path for you. Often the universe, like rolls out a red carpet, and says, Okay, we'll help you, we'll help you out here. You're exactly you're supposed to go to be and everything started just me writing a few words publicly into the world, literally, just like Zack, just simply like that. I didn't even know what I was writing or what I was doing.

Zack Arnold: Well, I would argue that there are countless people in many industries, not just those that are listening today that over the last several years have heard that little whispering voice that said, You're not meant to be here. And I think you're called to something else. Because we've been going through this thing that I've been calling the great correction, where we've talked about the great resignation, we've talked about the great recession, the Great Depression, we're in the middle of a massive, great correction right now, whether we like it or not. And it all started with COVID, where COVID said, we're gonna hit the pause button on your life, whether you like it or not, and we're gonna give you this thing called space, and this space to reflect on your life choices, and massive, massive amounts of identity crises across all sorts of industries. And now at least in the industry, that I'm in industries that are adjacent to it, and entertainment. It's just a massive catastrophe. Right now we're talking give or take about 75 to 80% unemployment levels, not just in Hollywood, but in entertainment related industries. Globally, it's happening everywhere. And again, it's almost like part two, it's like the sequel to COVID, where I've been calling it COVID 2.0. Because people are coming to me saying, I don't know what the hell I'm supposed to do with my life, because I don't know who I am without my job title on my resume. And it's being forced upon us whether we like it or not. And

Christina Rasmussen: you say it so well, that it's exactly as you're saying it, I cannot add anything to what you just said that will make this more clear and better. And very few people get this. And I love how you said the gray correction phase, or however you said it because I talk about that we actually self correct to modify enough to be liked by others. So we have stopped because of COVID because of what happened, we were allowed to maybe remove some of the audience that was watching us and we were error, this blog that it's coming out next week. about like, what if the audience around your state the stage of your life is is being removed? And you don't get to write a script that it's based on, on what they like, but it's based on what you like and what you want. And most people, like you've just mentioned will say, I don't know, because they have never asked the question. What do I want that we all have been asking? What do they want? So I can give it to them so they don't reject me and ultimately it's about a I'm losing love, we don't want to lose love. And I'm saying it in a romantic, not in a romantic way or more of a metaphor, right? Like when someone says yes to a job to a project to anything, especially in the entertainment industry. I mean, we have so much to talk about that industry. For me. I always said this, in my conversations, even when the book was being developed. And early, I would say, Do you know, not only the people, the creative people in the world that have a lot of invisible loss, do you know, actually, people who have experienced pain, or they are that small percentage of people that are experiencing life in a public way, or doing public projects and public things? Their level of loss is massive? I'm surprised we don't lose more of them. I'm surprised there's no more suicide, like it is huge, the level of rejection and the level of like scrutiny. And those people do not know who they are. I mean, of course, not everyone, right. And you know, better for this industry. But I don't know how they cope. Yeah,

Zack Arnold: I've been saying for years that by and large, especially in the entertainment industry, that their proportion of happiness and success are an inverse proportion, which is why by and large is not a universal, but by and large, the more famous people are, the more miserable they are. And you see it over and over and over, which is why they end up dealing with addiction and all kinds of other issues and why they they completely implode or explode in a very public fashion. It's because their body, their, their, their nervous system literally doesn't know how to cope with all the change, and all the stress, and then what

Christina Rasmussen: they're experiencing exactly, yeah. And they don't understand they don't have the language, they don't have the words, there's no validation for what they don't know what's happening to them. Because it's such a subtle level, that then because we don't have it in our society to discuss it, we don't have these conversations. I get very passionate like you about this. Yeah, and

Zack Arnold: it's this will be a little tangential. But there's one thing that I want to add to this, I never expected we talked about this today at all. But that's what I love about conversations and that interviews is that I think one of the biggest fears in the entertainment industry with the direction it's going with so many independent content creators is that people lose their identity to the algorithm that they say, Well, this is this is the person I need to be to the world, because that's what gets me more hits and more likes and more revenue. But then all of a sudden, the persona becomes the person because the algorithm is saying this is what other people want you to be. And again, they completely lose their sense of identity.

Christina Rasmussen: I hope you'd write a book about this sack.

Zack Arnold: I have so many book ideas. My biggest problem right now is what's the book because there are so many bodies. This is one of my challenges.

Christina Rasmussen: What is the book? Which one? Do you think which one is the one for you, that you that you you need to put out there? Right? What is the book that needs to be written by you first?

Zack Arnold: To be honest, I don't know the answer to this question. I have a list of about 10 different topics. I don't know the answer to this right now. I'm still trying to figure that one out. And

Christina Rasmussen: it's often because we it's amazing how we don't know. But we know somewhere deep down, it's the answer obviously belongs to you, and it's in you, it's inside of you. And there will come a day where you will see it. And then you'll immediately see that because you're an action guy, I can tell that you take action. I don't think you can live without it. Immediately you go to your desk and you'll start writing and you'll know it's the right thing, you'll know it's the right time. And whatever you decide to do, you will help a lot of people because of your ability to see within in the way that you do and why we are able to have this conversation. Yeah,

Zack Arnold: well, I appreciate all that. And well, I'll give you a little bit more context to kind of go back to something you had asked offline before, as you can tell, I must have gone through some sort of a transition at some point. And we're we're gonna we're gonna back into that from what we just talked about with the book. So where I'm at now is I know that my next calling is that I'm going to write books. I just every every fiber of my being says I need to be writing more. And I need to write books. I haven't figured out what's the book, or what are the books, that's the part that I'm still navigating how to put together a book proposal how to get an agent. There's a lot of that happening behind the scenes, but it's very clear the calling is to write and to write books. I've just I've had that feeling for two or three years. But I all the calling to do what I'm doing now came about 10 years ago, and this is what's going to help us get into the real the real topic of today's conversation, which is about this idea of invisible loss, right? Yes. Because everybody has some sense of what grief is if you lose a spouse, if you lose a job if you get a divorce, if you lose a house like those, those kind of big losses. Everybody understands the grief that comes with that. But you talk about invisible loss and how there are so many things that we're losing that we don't realize, and we can't process. And what I have discovered over the last year and a half is that I've never really experienced loss on a large scale and all of the losses that people experienced in a lifetime got smushed into the last year and a half for me and my my nervous system and my brain were like Nope, we're done and I've completely shut down having to Like, learn how to process all this grief, right? So I always, and I appreciate that. And I'm sure that we're gonna get very personal and very in depth about all of this soon. But I want to make sure we frame today's conversation where people understand this isn't about just how do you deal with the loss of a loved one or a job. It's, there's all these other invisible smaller losses that add up. So I actually want to go back to the first major one that I had, which is kind of what we almost started our conversation before I started it. Yes. So I want you to ask again, what you'd asked me before about how recognizing there must have been some form of a transition that led to today's conversation,

Christina Rasmussen: when I was researching you, in preparation, actually, fourth year, my publicity team does an amazing job, they send us a whole document with who we're talking to. And not only that, then I go off and start reading and, and I could see there was there was the part of you in the entertainment world. And then there was this part. And I said to myself, and I and I was telling you, I was looking out the window, a window out there. And I was like, I wonder what happened to Zack, and we didn't just for everyone we never met before. This is our first conversation ever, not even an email, nothing tiny 33 minutes ago, no nothing. It was like there was nothing. And I said to myself, I wonder what happened to Zack, for him to make this switch and this change. And then I went back and continue. And I said to myself, I hope we get our connection will allow me to ask that question. So that is my question. My question. I would love to know, what was it for you there who made you make such a shift.

Zack Arnold: So there's a series of events, but it all kind of comes down to one singular event, which I've I've written about several times, and talked about, but for those that are coming to this new, essentially, I had had been working for almost 15 years in this industry been just climbing the ladder to get the bigger credits and get the bigger projects. And I had reached the pinnacle of success at the time, which was I was just about to edit the season one finale of a TV show called Empire, which was breaking decade's worth of writing records and was a network TV juggernaut. I think to this day, it's probably one of the last appointment TV shows now with streaming, nobody watches the same thing at the same time. Everybody stopped to watch Empire than it came out. Last. Yeah, so I say that to frame the following image of I'm in this small dark room that I had to commute to roughly three hours a day, you know, an hour and a half each way. But I knew that what I was working on, it wasn't just my own little thing. I wasn't scraping by to trying to get noticed 25 million people were gonna watch what I was doing in that room. I had quote, unquote, made it. And at the same time, I had spent four months in a row putting my kids to bed via FaceTime every single night. My kids were five and three at the time, I think. So one of the nights I was putting them to bed via FaceTime. My, my wife thought she'd hung up the phone and she hadn't. And my five year old son said, Why doesn't daddy want to put us to bed at night? Why doesn't he love

us? That's my transition Oh,

Christina Rasmussen: my God, Zack, did you kind of break down and cry? How did you feel?

Zack Arnold: To be honest, I was numb, I just sat there, I will always remember just sitting in that room. It was like 738 o'clock at night just sitting on the couch like what? Like really like, this is what I've worked so hard for. And the if you can help me process this, because I'm still 10 years later. So like everything that I've done since then has been in service of never allowing that to happen, but also not allowing it to happen to others. But the loss, I think I was processing and this is where you can be helpful to me and everybody else. I think it was the loss of my identity and alignment with my values. It was thinking, I am a good and I'm a present father and realizing that was a massive misalignment with reality. And it was the loss of realizing this. This is not who I want to be or who I'm not who I thought I was. And that's

Christina Rasmussen: definitely a part of it. And I have a question for you, Zack, you see this happens to other people that don't make the changes you made. So my question to you is, there must have been, and I'm getting chills saying this. There must have been Zack, something deeper for you that impacted you in that way that connected you to an earlier invisible loss, which is an unacknowledged moment of impact that has stemmed from an interaction with someone with something, but we didn't recognize it as loss. The world the route around us does not recognize it as last but impacted as deeply and we felt not good enough. Not enough. not worthy enough. Was there anything in your life prior to this moment? And you can go as back as earlier in your life as a child as a teen as an early young young adult? That had you question anything about yourself and your specialness and your worthiness? Hmm,

Zack Arnold: that would be an understatement. It's funny because I've never told this part of the story. I've told them what I call the the FaceTime story many times, there's another component that I never talk about, because it's never relevant. And you just, it's like literally within seven minutes, you just saw the inside of my soul. So here's the other thing that was happening simultaneously, then I never tell this part of the story. Simultaneously, I had spent the previous eight years writing producing directing and self funding, a documentary film, about a very good friend of mine that I had lost. And he was the first quadriplegic that was a that became a licensed scuba diver. And I was at his funeral in 2007. Three weeks after he stood up on my wedding, I say, you know, stood up proverbially, but he was he was a core part of my wedding party. Three weeks later, I'm at his funeral. And he had far surpassed his life expectancy. So there was no like, catastrophic surprise or anything like he was supposed to live until the age of two, he was 30. So like, everyone knew, at some point that his time would come, it came right after he stood up on my wedding. And I heard all of these stories about the things that he had accomplished in his life at his funeral. And I had a eulogy that I was going to write about my nice friend, and the times that we had, I crumpled it up, didn't say a word of it. And I stood up in front of the group. And I said, this person's story needs to be told his name was Christopher rush, I said, Christopher's Christopher Russia story cannot stay here in this funeral hall. And I think I'm the one that's going to have to tell it. So I spent the next eight years putting this film together. And I was distributing the film and marketing it the exact same week. Wow. And it was a complete and total catastrophe. Because literally, my sales agent and my distribution company went out of business, the week my film released. So when people went to the landing page for this film, it said 404 air that was happening the exact same week.

Christina Rasmussen: Talk about everything is coming at you. At the same time. Zack, Did did you feel in that moment? What what? Now that we're talking about something that part of the story that has not been shared? Because you didn't think there was relevance? Can you see the relevance of everything and how it's reacting to it, I

Zack Arnold: saw the relevance of how it was connected, then it's just it in the context of telling the story. In other podcasts where I've been a guest. We've never gotten to that deeper level. But that the shift that happened for me in not necessarily that one moment, but in that period of time, is that I'd spent my entire career even from a child always working towards growth and learning to further my career as an editor and to become more successful on Hollywood. And there was an emotional shift. That was actually a feeling that changed, where I was no longer drawn to that. Now it was a job. It was, this is what I do for a living and I still need to support my family and pay my bills. But I need to find another way to support them that I'm drawn to that feels like my calling, which is what led to spending the next eight or nine years building this program becoming a podcast or becoming a writer, where I still to this day, and you were asking me, am I still in that transitional period. As soon as we get off this interview, I go back right back to my day job editing television, I'm still editing TV as we should

Christina Rasmussen: be still editing TV. How does that feel? Now? How does here's here's

Zack Arnold: where it's so interesting and different, where it's I want to make sure this doesn't just become about me, I want it to be about our audience as well. But where it's so interesting to me is that I have all been retired from the work that I do in Hollywood as an editor, but I found the one project that's in perfect alignment with my calling. So the show that I work on is Cobra Kai for Netflix. And the reason that I work on Cobra Kai is because one of the core parts of the work that I do is helping people to pursue their true potential and overcome all of their obstacles. And one of the main things that I experienced incessantly as a kid growing up that so many experience to this day is bullying. And the core themes of Cobra Kai are bullying, and pushing yourself outside your comfort zone and working towards your true potential. So even though it's a different medium and a different craft than writing, or podcasting, or educating or coaching, it's in perfect alignment at the epicenter of my why and my calling, which is why I've told my agent and I told other people, the only interviews are the only jobs that I will take must have the words cobra or Chi in the title. If they don't, I am retired and I'm unavailable. And my agent thought I was joking. And I said, I'm not joking. I'm retired. I don't care what you throw my way, unless it's aligned with the story in this project because it's the perfect expression of everything else that I'm doing just to a different medium and a different craft. And it's

Christina Rasmussen: amazing to me first of all, your drive and voice and the force that lives within you. It's incredible. And I heard when I heard the introduction on another podcast when I was just researching just before I got on and I'm like this guy has a lot of power a lot of source and i i can See you being a young dad, I can see you driving as you were seeing all of this, and I'm just the whole picture is coming together and everything. And I'm putting all the pieces together. And by the way, when we talk about when we make this conversation personal like this, this talks to people more, it's, you know, you know how people connect with someone's personal story even more than me? Are you sitting here talking about definitions and what they say people get to see what this is? What is invisible loss, what is what is this form of shadowing in our lives better and understanding better. So there's you you're you're you're actually exhausted, you're driving back and forth every day, you're FaceTime your kids, when they go to bed you are, you're also experiencing and another loss of the of the other work that you've been trying to do that meant so much to you. This is personal, even though it's professional, it's personal, and everything is coming at you. And when that moment in time when the phone didn't hang up, when you heard this sentence. And you felt numb, by the way, I understand that completely. I didn't cry for four months after my husband died, who it was the most catastrophic event numbness is actually it means that we are feeling too much for a body to actually overcome or recover or process we are in you, you are taken. And also saw in that moment in time, the kid he's the kid part of you, and you said something that I've been driven in my career ever since I was a child. And if you just pay attention to those words, like it's almost like you've been at work ever since you can remember that.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I've seen that. I've had many a therapy session digging deeper into this where essentially, I've been trained to be a machine. And literally that word has been used about me more than once to describe my abilities, my ability to do the work or by the the people that trained me like you just you just show up, you do what you're told you're a machine like you don't break down, there's no slowing down, you just you plow through right. It's the mentality is if there's four brick walls and a steel wall in front of you, you find a way to get around and where you push directly through them. That's the way that I've been trained and conditioned my whole life.

Christina Rasmussen: What was the first wall? Do you feel that? You had to to go through? Do you remember the first time you felt like that's the only way to be? That's the only time?

I'm sorry, I know, it's personal.

Zack Arnold: There's no I'm not worried about the personal side of it. I'm just not sure that I know how to break it down to one thing. I mean, the I guess the one thing that I do want to frame that's really important to me, is that this is not a woe was me pity party conversation, because the amount of privilege and fortune that I have, especially even now, the fact that I'm still working when 80% of my industry isn't, and I have a business that's still running and generating income, I am such a small minut percentage of people that are in this fortunate position. It doesn't. I've had to learn this myself, because boy have I made a lot of excuses. The last year and a half, where I've experienced so much loss, that the excuses well, but this isn't that big of a deal. This, like you shouldn't be grieving these losses, look at how fortunate you are, you should just be lucky to have what you have. And that's the epicenter of what you talk about. And

Christina Rasmussen: and Jack, I want to say normally, I'm the one who says what you just said, This is so great, because what you just said is so important. And I say this in the book, and I say this in my NSA, listen, I don't want anyone to say any more. I'm so privileged, and we're gonna get I know, I will get pushed back on this on this journey. I understand I get it, I'm ready for it. I don't want to hear that. Because those invisible experiences losses, that cure could be even more catastrophic than the ones that we're used to used to talk about or process. That's how people kill themselves. And I know I'm sounding dramatic. And people say but I didn't know, there was anything wrong. I didn't realize he was struggling. So like, How many times have you heard that? It's because they we can't talk about the things that really break our hearts because we are afraid that we're going to be looked at as if we're ungrateful, and that we're complaining and this is a pity party, and I want to go on the record. You're on the record, we're going to have this courageous conversation and say that is not true. These are invisible loss is actually asker Strophic. And I've had traditional catastrophic loss, okay. And I can say this, I can say this as a professional as a personal as in every way I can is that when we deny the processing of rejection, a catastrophic moment and more than me of being back to ourselves and to the people in our lives. We hurt them and we hurt ourselves deeply. So yes to every Thank you, Zack. And thank you for saying it and mentioning and this conversation, I didn't have to You said it. And it's true. And I hope anyone who's listening, I hope they reconsider their inner struggles. And that they're, they're bigger than, than what we've been told and what we doubting ourselves often because of what we have been raised to believe,

Zack Arnold: yeah, and and then that's when I want to really go into now is really helping us to better define what these invisible losses are so, so just just so I can take a breather for a second, we'll go up to the surface, we'll talk about some of the academic stuff, some of the concepts and frameworks that you talk about in your book. And then I'm sure we're going to do another super deep dive, because boy, do I have a list of invisible losses for you. But let's just kind of help frame this idea of invisible loss and how it's not just about this total catastrophic grief. And it's much more subtle than that, and how most likely everybody listening today is not experiencing one but multiple of these.

Christina Rasmussen: And I want to start by telling everyone how I discovered this, how I was like, What in the world is going on here? I want to take you back very quickly. So you understand that this was not something I just thought, Oh, my God, that sounds good. That sounds like a great idea. Let me write something about it. This was not it. This was getting in the way of helping people exit what I what I call the waiting room after a significant loss. So here's me teaching people from all over the world in all these classes. I had published my first book, which came out in 2013. And I'm right around 2014 2000, early 2015. And I'm starting seeing something in the classes that he was like, What am I? What am I missing. So I have this process called Life reentry. And I no longer I want to also say I no longer teach it. The book has a guide in the back, I'm giving it I trained therapists. This doesn't I know people ask, I'm not teaching it. This is this is giving it this is my gift to the world. The back, there's a guide on how to do it as a group. But there is a process that I coined life reentry. And in life reentry. In the beginning, I help people with tragic losses, loss of a spouse, loss of a child, divorce is very tragic, in many ways to find our way out of this place in between the lives are left behind because of the tragic loss. And the life that could have after we actually, most of us go in the place in between and we make our life there, we survive our life there. And we go into this loop that we look busy, we look like we're living, but we actually staying in the same place. And unfortunately, and this breaks my heart to say, but it's accurate. Millions of people die, they're thinking that's their life, and it's not their life. So here's me in the class is doing the work getting so many people out of the weight room living life, stepping into a new relationship, a new job, a new world, a new way of identifying themselves, and then all of a sudden, Zack, I would see them get back in the waiting room and not in a natural way, meaning I'll just need a break when you just need to rest I'm going to take a breather. And again, the waiting was a metaphor, but in a confusing way. And I knew then something is pulling them back. And he has, it's not really directly connected to their tragedy. And for me to think that at the time, was actually the last thing I wanted to think about. Because I felt guilty for maybe dishonouring the tragedy of the person's life, when I had to say, I'm not sure this is why you're here. I think there's something else. And we do part of the part of the work. And in the book, there is something called a mental stacking. So we stack we layer thoughts, and the very first tag is gold cleanse. So I was doing a reading for this. I don't even know where I found the courage. I thought it was normal. I thought it would be great. In all these groups, we would do collective cleanses. And what that means is that everyone would write their personal thoughts and filtered in the damn moment, like a stream of consciousness that would come and we would all write it out in front of everyone else. If the person if the people if the book was in, in person that would say that would say exactly what was on their mind. And that's when I started seeing it. Not only people were blown away by the connection and the similarities of the struggles, and we stopped talking about the tragedy. Zack I still to this day, like the tragedy brought them at the time to the class. But once we started delving into these moments of impact this what in visible loss is the it's almost like an emotional punch that took place in moments in time in your life that has been unacknowledged to completely unveiled not validated by anyone in your life. And you felt rejected brokenhearted abandoned, betrayed left, and especially those moments in time happened in any kind of public way. For example, we had a lot of people, and I'm sorry, I'm talking so much. But like this, you're

Zack Arnold: you know, you're the podcast guest, it's okay to talk as much as you like.

Christina Rasmussen: But, so this this table, and it's almost like, when we started all the interviews, I couldn't believe that actually, you know, people really wanting to understand what this was. And somehow I felt like everyone should know, everyone already knows, but they don't. It's a form of loss. And the more heartbreaking, it gets more heartbreaking when it happens in a public way, in the classroom, in a setting. Remember, we talked about fame, we talked about public projects you are working on USAC, and everyone in your industry are working on projects that are being seen by many millions of people, the scrutiny around the work that you do is much higher, because of that level of publicity, you know, and the more public experience of invisible loss, the harder Foley was, and the more people found their way to the waiting room to protect, to survive. That's what I call the survivor narrator in our in our in ourselves, and to stop taking risks and stop asking themselves what it is they want, they they stopped delivering the life, they're meant to be living, and they started living the life that will keep them safe from further invisible loss. And that is not the way the brain understood this, either. This didn't happen. I am saying this, and people can look back in their lives. And they're gonna say, I see that in my relationships, I see that in my work. It's very courageous that we have to start asking ourselves the question, what it is that we really want in our life. And it's very basic to say like that, but that public cleanse, and I still do one every Sunday, on Facebook, I say to people, here's your opportunity to cleanse what happened this week. And to do it publicly. And yes, people can see this. And this is why I'm asking you to do it here. Because I've had enough with the world hiding these moments of impact where we are experiencing the loss of the original self. The part of you, Zack, that has the abilities has the intuition has the the thriving mentality has the force and the drive to be who you are. I call it invisible losses because we lose the the authentic version of us. We experience in those moments of impact, a shift in awareness and a shifting perspective of who that self is, we actually start seeing ourselves very differently afterwards. We doubt who we are, why I continue to do the work I did. And I didn't run away from it, because it's a lot of work. So a lot of people who, who once they start being on this path, Zack, and they start, like even just their awareness, even just the cleansing, even just doing a live cleansing in a relationship, say, tell me what's on your mind right now and give the other person permission to be unfiltered. And to really say it as it is. I actually asked this sometimes in my conversations on podcast, I cleanse publicly myself. So we ended up having a real conversation. I didn't need to do this with you, because you are here present and connecting from the beginning. And there are those special moments with special people that we get to feel this. But it's very rare, as you know very well, Zack. So this is what invisible losses and because of those moments of impact, that are not processed, validated. We go into this place that I called a waiting room. And we sometimes our life looks great from the outside. I mean, when someone looks at you and looks at me, they say, oh, you know, look at them, I want to be like them, I want to live that life. Well, they don't know is that for a lot of people, that life is not really exactly as it looks, it's actually completely different. So when we experienced this duality between the inner world and the outer world, we break in half and that's how that broken self, that self that was in the original self gets injected out of you. And you go into that waiting room. When I think about your story. And when you mentioned in that moment in time when you made this decision, because everything was coming at you. I feel like you had It was almost like the door opened, and you exited that way to room but I think it was a, an accumulation of not just those two experiences. But the machine element that you mentioned from the beginning. And that you I think, what I'm getting from this is that you're okay to be the machine, that it better matters to you.

Zack Arnold: Once again, you've just you've seen it to the epicenter of my soul. So yes, that's, that's very, very relevant. And that I can I can push through anything. But I now the point where I must have meaning before was, I'm just going to push through anything. And if it's leading towards whatever the external version of successes as defined by the industry, or by my peers, that's what I could push through, then I lost that sense of, Well, what is the purpose of pushing towards this, if it doesn't have meaning to me or meaning to others. But now the challenge is that I can push myself through just about anything to my own detriment, physically, mentally, and emotionally, as long as it has meaning. And that was, I talked about this on another podcast recently, where for a long time, it was searching for that meaning, right. And I figured, well, once I find the meaning, and once I find the calling, well, that solves all the problems, only to realize that it's created more nuanced, and more complex problems that I would much rather have than the problems I used to have. But it's still it again, creates that problem of when now if everything is important, and if everything is meaningful, it becomes much harder to say no to the things that you shouldn't be doing. Because I'm in the the machine mentality. Right? So that's,

Christina Rasmussen: and that's where, and actually, that's a natural place to be. Because what happens in our lives and I, over the years, people would come back to go through life reentry. Yeah, and again, and I would say the reason, we all have to go through that process over and over again, or to mental stacking dailies, because what happens is that the new, the new version of who you are, ultimately will create a new waiting room. Because that survivor, self, the narrator of our life, that, unfortunately, is a larger percentage is that their number one priority is to keep you safe. So if you are, if you are, if the machine is breaking in any way, your survivor cell says, Hold on a minute, let's make some, you can't be going like this. What are you doing? What do you think? Who do you think you are, you can't be living this way. And that's when we have to start asking different questions. That's when you know, whenever I find myself, when I found myself, give an example, when I started doing this work, it was exactly what my original self wanted and needed and and I went after it and did it and gave it my all and my drive and my soul in every way. But I was changing, you've changed. You're no longer the person that stepped into this. Now your responsibility, Zack, and I know, you know this is to find out another layer of you to go deeper to that original self and find out what is that self really needing now? And the answer could be we don't I don't know the answer, the answer will live with you will be with you. And maybe it is the books maybe. Maybe it's something that you can't see yet. But I I promise you as long as we're checking in, and we're trying to figure out what is next because that is no longer enough or is no longer exactly right. And by the way, it's not only it's not only to have a good life, or a great life to have the right life, my right life could be just a cabin in the woods by myself. Painting Right? Or someone else will think that I'm like a homeless person. Right? It, it, it that's why we have to be so real with ourselves because we are so used to comparing ourselves to others or we're looking at not you but like all of us, the people who are listening, like how how is that looking in comparison to that person and that person, so we stopped really realizing what it is that that is for us. So the machine may need a different body of car to take it to the neck, maybe the engine has to change maybe maybe looks slightly different or completely different jobs. And the answer will only come from you

Zack Arnold: that well. I want to dig even deeper into this concept or this feeling of the waiting room. Yes. Because I think that I would venture to guess that pretty much everybody listening to this now is like oh my god, I'm living in the waiting room because everyone is in the middle of this this great correction and this massive transition with the economy with the industry. And again not to fall back into the trap of I'm so fortunate, but I do feel fortunate and that that all the questions that I know so many people are asking because I know because they're reaching out to me and my text messages or my emails via LinkedIn, they're asking all these bigger questions about this life transition. They're going through the same existential crisis I had nine years ago. So I feel like I have a nine year head start where it doesn't make what's happening. Now any easier any less scary. But I have way more tools and mindsets. And I've what most people are experiencing now I've already worked through for nine years. So I'm not delaying the inevitable, which is, we're probably going to get back to, you know, some of the invisible losses on dealing with you were talking to me nine years ago, or anybody else that's listening in the waiting room now saying, Well, how does this apply to my situation? Given that I can't even find another job, I've lost not just my employment, but my sense of identity, the title on my resume isn't even relevant anymore with the new industry with new technology. Like, my guess is everybody feels like they were in the waiting room right now. And so what are some some practical thoughts, mindsets questions that are going to help us move out of the waiting room, knowing that we have no control over all of the batshit crazy things that are happening around us right now,

Christina Rasmussen: I want to start by saying to whoever's listening, is that I am really sorry for what you're going through, like I, as you were saying this, like I felt, I feel it in my heart. And we've all been in a place like this at some point in our lives. And everything is questioned. Not only you feel like the world is questioning you, but you're questioning yourself. So I want to start by saying the very first thing is, yes, there's a million exercises in the book. And there's a process and there's a way forward, I want you to find the truth, in your words and your thoughts by first of all, find a way to stop questioning yourself. Because what's happening to everyone's minds right now is that you're wondering if you're good enough. And I could cry about us. It's heartbreaking. Imagine someone who has done really well, for so long, all of a sudden, and knowing their specialness and knowing exactly. And knowing who they really are, they've known, they have known all of a sudden, something is questioning everything about their skills, their abilities, their charisma, their unicorn, self, they're, they're all the things right. And the only way to stop this from happening is or to start changing this is to find the courage to believe in yourself, again, to believe that you have what it takes. And I'm going to say very clearly, very passionately, you have what it takes to not only get out of the weight, and we'll talk about that, but to find your way to the most true version of yourself even more than before. But you have to start by understanding what it is that is looping in your head, what it is that is going round and round and round, what is the biggest fear there is a fear that is taking place within you right now. And we need to find out what that fear is. And the only way that the way that I have witnessed 1000s of people find it and is to I've never said it this way before but take an inventory of your thoughts. And by the way, I don't know how many men or women are listening to this. I understand. Women have a lot of invisible losses. But for men, what I have seen over and over again, is that the world has not given men permission to be sensitive, to be vulnerable, to cry in public, to say the things that they struggle with, to their spouses to their family, we have. Again, it makes me very sad. Every time I say this, and every time I think about it, we have removed the permission to be vulnerable in the in the male gender in our lives. And I want to give everyone whether you're a woman or a man a permission to, to feel this, to find a way to fill it in that is valid and it's solid. And there's nothing wrong with you. You haven't done anything wrong. This is not your fault. This is not your doing. I can't say it enough. This is not something you've done. You're not all of a sudden not good enough. You're not all of a sudden not special. You are special, you're worthy. And there is a loop. There is the survivor mindset that is stemming from a trigger invisible loss, a primary invisible loss has taken place a long time ago that is now coming to you to protect you because you're suffering. So it's basically telling you not so fast to not go out there. Look what just happened. This is going to happen again. Maybe you're not as great as you think. So don't knock on that door. Don't pick up the phone. Don't send that text and maybe Maybe you don't need to go back to that special job again, or to another version of that special jewel, maybe, maybe you just need to just give up on that. So, find that statement in your verbal clans to someone you trust or your grab a pen. And I know it sounds silly, but grab your phone, put it in a text, and pretend nobody can see this and just write whatever the heck is coming to you and then read it. That's the code that's keeping you inside this protective space. And you need to grab that code and you need to change it, you need to find the part of you that knows better that knows, and knows that you're special. I know that whoever it is you're listening, if I could write these books, and I could step on the stage and help people in another language and another culture another world. If Zack can do what he's done, if like, you can do this, and I know we don't know each other, and I I've never directly talk to the listener like this before, by the way, unless I was doing in my own podcast, which I'm no longer doing. But this trust, the part of you that I call the watch yourself that witness that knows you better than anyone else and trust your abilities that there haven't vanished and they haven't disappeared. And it starts from there. We start from that reframe. And that different, you going back to seeing the version of view that is real, and it's here. Any matters. And I know that this is hard. This is probably the hardest thing you've ever done.

But I believe it's possible. I know it is.

Zack Arnold: Well, on behalf of all listeners right now, let me just say, Hang Yikes. That yeah, that's, that was not easy to hear. I think that it was invaluable for people to hear that. And I would guess that more than one person, I hope if they were driving or riding their bike or cleaning or whatever other multitasking, they were doing, they just stop for a second, they just listened. And if not, hit the pause button, use your little finger scroll back and listen to that again, because I think that that's, that is absolutely vital for all of us to hear right now. And I appreciate you saying all that.

Christina Rasmussen: And it's true, Zack and I know you know this, it's like it's it's because

we live in a world that

was the best way to say that. It takes a robs us from ourselves. And this is why we're having this conversation. I don't want this to happen anymore to anyone. And it's not our fault, I we everything we've done is to protect ourselves from that robbery. Again, I've never used that exact word before, but it is a robbery that takes place. And I I'm here to stop it. We're here to have this conversation, make sure that you you remember yourself, you remember who you are, and you know it deeply. Yeah,

Zack Arnold: and I'm not gonna go too deep into soapbox mode or TED talk mode. But I've been saying something in a very similar fashion, which is the fact that we are so tied to our identities as being the title on our resumes is not an accident. The system is designed this way for a reason, because it keeps us in survival mode, because in survival mode, we have to earn just enough to stay afloat and maybe pay off our debt if we're lucky, but mostly be in debt, live the life that we're supposed to live, which makes us obedient workers, because as soon as we have the freedom to say no to the wrong opportunities, and we can afford to do so we're no longer a part of the system. So this is not an accident that we're all in this position right now the system is designed this way. And if people say, well, the system is flawed or broken. No, it's not. It is for us. But the system itself is working just fine for the people that designed it, which is why we're seeing this huge disparity between those that are saying the economy is booming, the stock market's amazing. And then there's everybody else saying, where's this economy that everybody's talking about? That's so great, because my life has never been worse than it is right now. All you have to do is spend half an hour reading Wall Street Journal, any other economic indexes, and it's all these job reports. Job reports are booming, and the economy is doing great. It's like bullshit. None of that's true. But that's because the system is working perfectly. We're just the ones that pay the cost of it. And it brings me to the next question, which is that if we've been conditioned literally since preschool, to be told, what do you want to be when you grow up? Then you you choose a very specific track you're very specialized your cognitive machine. We don't know anything but the survivor self. How the hell do we even find who we're supposed to be if we haven't lost something in the river had

Christina Rasmussen: i You're so good at this. I just like you've known about the work forever. Like, I remember the day when I'm in my class, probably around 2015 16 I remember introducing the Thrive herself to people and For the first time, someone said to me, What if I don't remember my thriver self, there's an exercise that in the book that takes you back to remember, a memory, what happens when we're in survival mode, I tried to study memory and how memories is being used in our brain. When we are in survival mode, actually, the the part of the brain that prioritizes memory, it doesn't take you to the place where you had fun when you left the house metaphor, again, this, we're not talking about something so simple. It's not telling you remember, when you went out, and you had so much fun, let's go out again, it says, Remember, when we went out, and you were broken, and you were rejected. So let's let's not go out again, the times that you did go out and have fun are being suppressed in your memory. So you're not remembering, even if you experienced your that True Self having fun, living free, enjoying the grass outside your blue bike, whatever that was, he has been forgotten for some people. And I remember this guy will always remember him saying, and I remember thinking, and that was the first time actually, someone maybe was brave enough to say something. I'm thinking there must have been others before him. Then after that we had them the emails that people like, I remember him saying, and he was mad. He was angry about it. And he had every right to be. This is about 120 people in my class. And he says, I don't have a thriver self. And there's me trying to think on my feet. set us up. Tell us tell us more. What are you mean? And he says, I don't remember I have no memory of me being a thriver. And for me, everything changed. In that moment in time, I realized and learned or researched, I asked I asked those questions, and I put it in every time I did this exercise again. I said some people will not remember it. And there was people who started raising their hand I don't remember the last time I thrived. I don't remember the first time I thrived. I do not remember it. And they would cry. Zack and I feel it, they will cry, and I will cry for them. Imagine, imagine that. And like you said, we remember survival, and we don't know who we really are. So in that case, in the case, the people when the people come to you and to me and say I don't remember a good time, we are starting to create that thriver self that kid the kid we were born this way we are born to thrive actually, we start to build it from scratch now and we start to spend time asking ourselves the question what is fun? What is play? What what do I what do I want to do today just to have fun and and allocate value in that task, allocate permission in that task. believe that this is the most valuable thing you can give to yourself a memory of thriving because only that you can be in touch with who you are. And only then you can remember you can actually connect the call of the thriver bridge to the past you can connect to that part of you that is was there and he's there but the survivor part of us the amygdala center in your brain is shutting you out of that place so you don't risk your life and take more chances and be who you are so you you don't get rejected again. So you you you want to stop receiving conditioned love, right because it's not really real love when we receive love that comes from some kind of an exchange that has nothing to do with us. I hope that makes sense what I just said

Zack Arnold: it very much makes sense that I'm I'm gonna throw another layer on to this which is that my brain and I would assume like many of the others that are listening I'm really good at coming up with excuses and reasons not to do things I can reason my way out of anything. So my retort to you and you say pursue those things that are fun or enjoyable find your thriver self if well I don't feel like as I'm really tired and depressed or conversely or maybe even simultaneously I'm also really busy. Yes this the timer to

Christina Rasmussen: Yes, I have the answer for this the more intelligent you are and I know that people who are listening to this but I believe that their brain is large the more intelligent you are the more intelligence survivor self you have. User here my survivor self like I have, I have the stories to tell you very convincing lies very convincing truths about why we should be here and not here. So the more intelligent the longer it's been with you the better reasons for not thriving and for not playing and for not laughing and porn. not being in that kind of place of like, fun. You know, even if your life is falling apart you see, that's the thing. It's easy to have fun when, when everything is great. Hey, when I was starting this book path, I said to myself, this is what you're going to do. Christina, this is a lot to a lot of responsibility. It's a lot of people to help a lot to do. And I could tell my survivor self was, Oh, my God, Zack, let me make this even more personal and say, My survivor self told me, what the heck are you doing? Why are you putting yourself in this place? Again, like this, you know, this is not going to work out as great. And it gave me reasons, many reasons, right? I had to step into a new ritual every day, in in the thick of things and completely create a new program and new mental stack for my mind. I had to reach a higher ground for myself. And I cannot say I actually started experiencing. For the first time since I was a teenager, panic attacks in December, I went to my doctor and said, Listen to me, I'm a very resilient woman. I've been through hell and back, whatever this is telling me what the hell is going on with me because this is not me. It was afraid. I was so afraid. And, and I had to wake up, I had to step in that panic mode, I had to be experiencing a real panic attack my God, for those of you who have experienced panic attacks, I thought I was dying. I thought this is I'm going to have a heart attack and die. Right?

Zack Arnold: You I've I've been through you basically, you assume you're having a heart attack?

Christina Rasmussen: Yes, I ended up throwing up like, this is like a real. And I had two or three weeks of everyday like this. And I said to myself, I whatever is happening, my survivor self came and said, Look at you. What do you think you're going? What do you think you're doing? You don't even have what it takes anymore. That's it. And let me tell you, I stood up to that survivor self. And it was not easy. It was actually hard. I didn't think not only did I get through those i, where I am today, a few months after this, I'm in a better place than I've ever been in my life for anything. But it took a lot of changes and a lot of things. So it's when you're in that panic mode, it is when when when everything's falling apart, that I want you to find the way through that. And I want you to start listening to see what it is that is keeping you down. And that excuse that you said, Zack, that you can find excuses. And, and so did I comes from the place of protection. I used to do this exercise with people where I say, Okay, we're going to have a conversation without the survivor self. And I want you and this is done this to so many people, I want you to tell me where you would send us a waiver sell for five minutes, we just need five minutes without the excuses, right? Without the survivor saying no, you can really do this. Christina, you can do this, because of this in this in this, Zack, you can do this because you have a job there and you have an income coming in. But whoever's listening, like I can't do this, I don't have those opportunities. So let's say, and I'm gonna say this to you, let's send our Survivor Filter somewhere. And I would say where do you think you would send the survivor? So for the next five minutes, and they can't interrupt our conversation? And do you know where people said, and and let me say, I have done this, in book signings in classes, people from all over the world? Do you know what the most popular answer is?

Zack Arnold: I have no idea. But I'm fascinated, right?

Christina Rasmussen: I was shocked.

There survivor, everyone's survivor actually needed a break, because they've been working really hard, apparently. And they send them to a tropical island with a cocktail in their hands. And you know why that is and it took me I mean, I was shocked by this is because we actually love our survivor selves, because they keep that part of us keep it keeps us safe, keeps us company in those moments of sorrow and hardship. So we are very attached to the part of us that says, That is not possible for you. You can't do this. I was shocked by the level of love and attachment that we do have to that survivor self that actually ultimately, it is important that we realize that that part of us can keep us in our waiting forever. It's like a prison cell that doesn't look like a prison and, and we lose our whole life. So now and again, I would have people saying they send them to a different planet. There was a remember a guy next door because we couldn't leave further. They couldn't be without them much further. I mean, I had I've had many answers, but 80% They're having a party because they deserve a break. So they had more love for their survivor selves than they did for themselves. So

Zack Arnold: that's really interesting. What I what I I want what I wanted to dig into a little bit more now is taking all of this, which I think is invaluable. And breaking it down to a very clear, very simple next action. I'm always about taking really complex ideas, and you can walk away with something. So you mentioned this idea of starting these new rituals, all the the various exercises, but give an example of like, one ritual or one thing that got you started that somebody could say, I'm completely stuck in survival mode, podcast host included right now. Just one thing they can get us out of that Survivor Mode. That's simple enough, that would be a ritual and exercise beyond the things we've talked about. It's very practical.

Christina Rasmussen: Are you ready to do a mental snack with me, Zack,

Zack Arnold: let's do it.

Christina Rasmussen: All right. So anything that makes you uncomfortable, which I don't think we'll find anything, you tell me everything makes

Zack Arnold: me uncomfortable, but I'm willing to embrace. This entire conversation has made me uncomfortable so far.

Christina Rasmussen: I'm actually I take this as a compliment. I think this is this is an I see people, a friend of mine read the book early. And she goes, I can't believe you making me work so hard and said, Yep, this is I don't if there's a free ride, if we can do this, the easy way you tell me and I'll go, I'm common master by yourself will be the first person there to say show me the easy, right? Because I want it right.

So: very first question I want everyone to ask is, even though you think you know what you may be guessing where your waiting room is, I want you to pretend and that's for you Zack to that you don't know the answer to that question. You think you know where you're stuck. But imagine if you actually haven't really asked yourself what it is that you want for a long time. But you've been asking what it is that I need to do? What do I need to do to get through this? That is not the question that we need to ask even if we are in the worst possible place. So ask yourself this one question. Where am I pulling away from in my everyday life? What is the part of my life my routine? My day to day? Are you pulling away from Zack? You

Zack Arnold: obviously so easy. Oh, it's exercise. 100% exercise and proper diet are the two areas that I've complete. I mean, I like avoid them like the plague which is so ironic given that a huge part of my identity and the work that I do is talking about exercise, and I teach Spartan Races. I spent six years training for American Ninja Warrior. The area that I by farm avoiding the most is diet and exercise, no question that was easy.

Christina Rasmussen: That's awesome. I'm glad that you know this. And so now that you we know they say once you tell me everything in the next few sentences and I know we don't have the luxury of being in a class for weeks or reading the book for three months. But everything that comes to mind when you just said that everything I mean it and Zack, like every emotion that you're feeling when you're saying this and every emotion that you're feeling now even if it doesn't have anything to do with what you say like and what's your stream of consciousness if you were brave enough to just tell me what you're thinking right this moment.

Zack Arnold: This is going to be hard conversation. I knew this was coming

Christina Rasmussen: I'm sorry.

Zack Arnold: No, it's the it's taken

me a lot of work to even be able to answer this question because when you're a machine you don't label your emotions and you ignore them. And what I have been experiencing edit immense level for a year and a half is sadness.

Christina Rasmussen: I'm sorry, I am so sorry. And

and I as you said it, I felt the the drop in that place. And I'm grateful that you went there. And when you feel the sadness, Zack what comes with it? What else is with it? Or what worse does he have? What? What does it feel and when I go when I'm struggling even to ask this question is because this place can often have no words. And if you could find any words to describe it, what would it sound like?

Zack Arnold: I'm not sure I totally understand the question but the first thing that comes to mind stream of consciousness is that the sadness feels like I'm wearing a 500 pound weight vest. I don't want what if I were to to to share what it feels like to be in good shape and do all the ninja training and eat well and sleep well the the one word that I can explain how it feels is you just feel light. You just you effortlessly move through your day walking is effortless. Let you enjoy exercise you feel better when and after you exercise. And for the last year and a half. I feel like I've lived my entire life 24 hours a day wearing a 500 pound weight vest.

Christina Rasmussen: And you say specifically a year and a half. Was there a specific time that that vest has been added on to you? It's

Zack Arnold: it's been added in layers many many layers over the last year and a half. So the if if we were talking about the thriver self I know exactly who that is, I know what their daily routine was, I know what they felt like, I know what they sounded like, I know how they behaved, and that person is less than two years old. Like, I know that in a very recent go to my podcast two years ago, I probably sound like a different person.

Christina Rasmussen: You lost your thriver selves in the last year and a half.

Zack Arnold: I don't know if I

didn't lose sight of who the thriver self is I lost my connection to that person.

Christina Rasmussen: And if you were to connect to that person, so I'm so I'm going to give you a little bit of reflect of what you just said, in this cleanse in this first layer, you basically laid it all out, you said, I've been feeling sad. And when you said that, we felt a drop in that energy. You said that it feels like you've been hurt carrying this very heavy vest by 100 pounds. It feels like, you know, your thriver cell? Do you remember that? You're not connecting to that? And is there something as you're saying this, that you're feeling? But you're not saying? There's

Zack Arnold: nothing that I'm feeling that I'm not saying? I just I think what the thing I'm avoiding is the answer to the question, what's happened in the last year and a

Christina Rasmussen: half. And I'm feeling that and that's if you were so in that cleanse in that first layer. And even if we don't add that in, for all the right reasons, anyone who's listening, it's almost like because I'm so trained to listen to this cleanse that I've created for everyone. I feel when there's a gap, I feel it a sense that I and you can see people who are not watching this or listening, I'm moving my hands. It's almost like physical. I see it. So there is something missing this part that is missing, right here is your survivor self. And that's the code that is keeping you in that survival mode that's keeping you in a waiting room without the thriver self in action. Yes, in memory of bad inaction.

We need that.

That sentence and without being specific, I'm going to ask you a question that will help put that sentence in in Is there something you're afraid of?

Zack Arnold: Nothing is coming to my mind now because I'm not willing to share it. But nothing is coming here. The only thing? Well, that's not true. The what I'm afraid of and not because the reason that I do these conversations and record them as I want to do whatever it is that I'm going through in service of the other people that are with me, but this is a really, really hard place to go. So the the biggest thing that I'm afraid of is just having to like, share publicly, here's all the shit that's going on. Because it's especially when you're in a position of and I'm you have I'm not even near being famous, like I can go grocery shopping. Nobody knows who the hell I am. But I've got an audience. I've got followers, I've got listeners, right. And there's a very specific persona that goes with that. And to most people, it's still he's the American Ninja Warrior. He's the lead editor of Cobra Kai. He's the coach. He's doing it all right. And none of that is true over the last year and a half, like just trying to keep it all together and survive has taken everything I've got. So I think the one of the fears is just kind of to kind of taking that veneer off even though I'm incredibly vulnerable as my audience. It's another layer of the veneer that has not dropped yet. And you

Christina Rasmussen: said more than enough here to help us and help everyone else. See what's happening. And what I'm hearing you say is that, so we find the pattern that's being repeated within you there is a fear of removing that protective, what would you call it? I don't want to add a word here that's not right for you protective.

Zack Arnold: Armor is the first word that

Christina Rasmussen: mark and you actually said it. So the protective armor so there is there a feeling of shame in any way, shame is actually the most common pattern and fear that we that we find. Is there a shame is there.

Zack Arnold: No shame it wouldn't be the word because I've I've shared so many details that I feel no and it's it's not a matter of I'm ashamed or embarrassed by something that I've done. It's all just life circumstances that have consistently been happening to me. So it's not shame that I'm ashamed to share what I've been going through. It's just it's it's hard to share it publicly. And again, just kind of I think that part of the programming that comes with being a machine is the the inability to accept the fact that you're human, and that's kind of been trained into me is that everybody else is human, but you're not in your machine and you're just keep pushing forwards. And this is me being very human.

Christina Rasmussen: And what I'm hearing from this first layer of the stack, which is very significant is that you just admitted something to yourself that you're not just a machine. You are human with vulnerabilities and moments of impact. Then visible last isn't that. And even when you said that guy, your voice even changed. And if we take that, Jack, if we just take that we take that. Now imagine, and for everyone was listening, we're gonna add another layer here, and that you took the survivor self that said, you can show everyone how you really feeling you can't share how you feel. That's a very hard thing to share your machine. And then your watch yourself just game man, by the way, and I'm going to show you how it happened and said, but Zack, you are human too. And how true is that? Right? And now we're going to take that second layer, and we're gonna find the Thrive ourselves in you. You're human, and not just any human. What would your Thrive ourselves say? Now, if we brought that part of you in this conversation?

Zack Arnold: Honestly, the first thing that came to mind is dude, just get off your ass and do the thing. Like you've done it 100 times, you know, you can do it, just just go do the things that you already

Christina Rasmussen: do. That's what I would say, what is that thing?

Zack Arnold: I mean, I guess it would be doing the super crazy high intensity ninja Spartan training exercises that I've been doing for years.

Christina Rasmussen: And how does that feel?

How does it feel? To say that in the way that you the way that thriver the words describe herself? shows were very specific, you know, the gate came with power, it came with force, he came with the thriver element of it. How did that feel when you said it and I can tell there's resistance to it. And I want you to know the resistance coming from the survivors of because now my friends. This is where it gets tricky and hard. Now, when you're about to open the door and say, dammit, I'm after this interview. I'm on this and I'm going to do it, you're going to just go and crush it, Zack right. In that moment in time your amygdala center is being activated. And the survivor self is coming to rescue you with the best excuse in the history of the world. What would that be? And you being aware of that? Remember, it's starting to to stop you from doing this it's going to try and stop you and it's gonna take every thriving feeling and connection you have with that part of you. That you were before two years old. Do you can we bring that kid here to reinforce this conversation?

I can certainly try I don't remember him to well wisher. What

do you remember if there's anything

honestly, I don't have any real memories before maybe four or five will comes then we'll come out four and five. First

Zack Arnold: memories are I went to a Montessori school and I just remember being in a corner doing my own thing playing with blocks or reading or doing whatever because that's kind of the the Montessori ways you just you let you let kids experience things on their own time and find their own passions rather than just kind of feeding them information. So first memories are just sitting somewhere off on my own doing my own thing.

Christina Rasmussen: And how did that feel for you?

Zack Arnold: Oh my God, that's my bliss. Like that's, that's my passion. My passion is just give me a creative project. Leave me the hell alone to do my own thing and let me thrive.

Christina Rasmussen: In that, my friend, is you just answered the question of like, what you need to do going forward not only to go and do what you know you need to do but to leave me the hell alone everyone, and go and do it. The way you know how and only you and Zack, correct me if I'm wrong when I say this next part. When you're in this thriving mode, you are unstoppable. Not like a machine but like a human unstoppable which is the soul right? It's different. There is no doubt in my mind that whatever in the last year and a half has been stopping you from accessing that part of you, you that kid. That person I'm meeting today that thriving self has not just the power has everything it needs to hijack you and take you where you need to be in the next hour.

Do you believe me?

Zack Arnold: I do believe you. Yes, absolutely. I believe you. However, I'm going to add another layer to this because you like layers. Yes, please. What if the things that are stopping you are not just your excuses in your inner beliefs in your imposter syndrome and everything else? But it is literally your external circumstances to a certain extent. Yes.

Christina Rasmussen: And actually love. Imagine that I've heard that I've had this conversation 1000 times. And I love them because it gives us the opportunity to help people when they get to this place and say yes, but I hear that I'm making reasoning behind this. But this is a real reason. So what I do is I literally remove all the practical, logical reasons as to why you can do something. And I call it the plugin. Do you know what the plugin is? I do not know. Yes, love to know. And it was invented by me for this reason, because I knew we were facing a survivor self that was strong, and notorious, and it was coming after us. And we were being bullied by the way, but from the survivor self, using that word, especially with you, this is not a healthy relationship. So I devised this action that I call the plug in where we plug in to the life outside of the waiting room only at a 5% risk. You know why? Because we want to leave the beast asleep, when we sneak out of that friggin waiting room. And let me tell you, if nothing works, now, I'm gonna ask you this question. I don't want you to risk more than 5% of fear or 5% of like the resistance, what could it be, that you can do after this conversation that will connect you to the thriver self, that is as small and as easy. And as fun as it can be without any risk of waking up? This reviving thought the layer, the top layer that we talked about? What could that actually be that is super small, and super easy, but the right thing, and the right thriving next step.

Zack Arnold: The first thing that comes to mind, and I wouldn't be able to do it immediately. So if I change it to by the end of this weekend, just because literally as soon as we get off, I've got to work right now. But and whether that's an excuse or not, I don't know. But the first thing that came to mind that I've been saying to myself for weeks I need to get back into, and I keep reasoning myself out of is I'm a mile away from one of the most amazing hiking trails in all of Southern California. All I got to do is get my ass out of bed, get in my car, and walk up a hill. And then I've got the most amazing views. And I used to do it all the time. It was every Sunday for years. And for months, I've been making excuses for reasons why I can't do it today. That's the 5% version.

Christina Rasmussen: And that you understand why these these reasonings come snow. Now, the way to make this happen and to make it you have to make it timely, you have to make it so is it Saturday or Sunday that you will go

Zack Arnold: Sunday morning is when I would go and what time? I don't know because it's Mother's Day. So we'll probably be later in the morning if I did it. Because obviously I want to make sure that you know my wife gets first priority, but it would be after our Mother's Day morning festivities.

Christina Rasmussen: And how long do you need driving time and hiking time driving,

Zack Arnold: it's give or take 10 minutes there and back, it's very close hiking, I usually did the bare minimum would be an hour to be able to kind of get to the spot that I would stop at and go back, it's a minimum of an hour.

Christina Rasmussen: So you need an hour and 20 minutes on Sunday. Now I want you to plug in prior to that, and have a conversation with your wife that this is something I just need one hour and 20 minutes. After we do our thing, whatever it is that you guys do a unit to go and do this. And that's of high, high the highest importance to you for many reasons. And you'll tell her all about it. But having that conversation with her is actually another plugin that you allow the you allow the survivor self to say all but okay, so she's in support of this, that she he can't deny that. Oh, but it's Mother's Day, what do you think you're doing? Why would you want to spend your time by yourself and so on, right? If Sunday is not possible, move into Saturday, or whatever you do, Zack, and everyone was trying this mentals that whatever you do, even if he's just driving there and back and not even stepping out of your car and I mean this keep this promise to your thriver self no matter what happens. And even if the survivor self, how is that going to change my life? How I promise you this and I'm gonna say enough seen people cry after going to that first yoga class. They haven't been a year. It took them a whole six or seven weeks in our class to say yes to the yoga class. It I've seen the resistance of the survivor, part of us so much sure what I want to say to everyone know that you will experience reasons, the resistance of not making that happen. But as long as you get in that car, you drive there and you don't have time to get out. Know that you when you when you went there and back, walk for five minutes, come back in your car and I'll tell you, you'll end up getting out of your car. You'll end up making this more than five minutes. And what happens after this. It's the best thing in the world. And it's the beginning and it's the first step to All too many journeys out of the waiting room into a new life that you cannot predict from inside the waiting room. Do not tell yourself what's going to happen next. Trust the process of this. So

Zack Arnold: Well, I appreciate all of that. And more. This has been an amazing conversation. And I'm realizing I should probably now open my notes, and we should start today's podcast conversation about your book. But unfortunately, we're out of time. And actually, I clearly suck at time management because I promised we were going to be done 12 minutes ago, but this was too valuable to cut you off.

Christina Rasmussen: How do you feel Zack?

Zack Arnold: I'm both exhausted. But I also feel I feel more encouraged and more hopeful than I have in a while. But this was just the most exhausting podcast that perhaps I've ever done. I'm just wiped out. But in the best way possible that that kind of good feeling of exhaustion like this cathartic exhaustion. So

Christina Rasmussen: you knew this was gonna I mean, you said it from the beginning. I think this is going to be deep, and it's going to be hard. Oh,

Zack Arnold: and I made many excuses. I haven't talked to my Podcast Producer Debbie beforehand, about the multiple times I said to myself, now I really need to cancel tomorrow. I really don't think we can do tomorrow. I don't think I'm ready for tomorrow. But then I'm like, Dude, you need to do this podcast. There are a million and a half reasons to not do that. But I knew that I needed to do it today, not just for me, but for everybody else that's going through all the same things right now. So I'm immensely immensely immensely appreciative of your time, your expertise and everything that you've been through and turning just the worst strategies it tragedies into into hope and teaching material for others and inspiration for others. So having said that, if I wanted to send people to one place to find more about you find your book and elsewhere, where can I send people

Christina Rasmussen: I would, I would just send them to Amazon and get just typing in visible loss. If everyone wanted to put their invisible loss in an anonymous, anonymous place, I'm creating the biggest invisible loss library. We don't use your emails, I don't even know we, we may not even ask for an email. But it's called Invisible losses.com. and my website is Christina Rasmus and.com. But you don't even need to go to any of these places. Just go and search for invisible last book and go grab it. That's it. That's the only thing and I remember this conversation and know that the path ahead is yours. There'll be obstacles, but there's no doubt in my mind that you can overcome them. No doubt at all. And Zack, I can't wait to hear what happens on Sunday night.

Zack Arnold: I'm going to let you know I'm going to make sure if I don't have your direct email and make sure we get your direct email and you're going to hear from me by Sunday night. I promise I'm gonna be waiting for real. And I know you're I know you're for real because you're a lot like me, and I'm the same way and I make a promise to somebody I'm not gonna break it. So you're gonna see my email by Sunday night so I appreciate it so much.

Christina Rasmussen: Thank you so much for having me.

Episode Credits

This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared by Debby Germino and published by Glen McNiel.

The original music in the opening and closing of the show is courtesy of Joe Trapanese (who is quite possibly one of the most talented composers on the face of the planet).