Episode Highlights

• What burnout looks like, the ugly side, especially when dealing with “Imposter syndrome”
• Going from a civil engineer to a female body builder
• Framing failure as a learning experience, especially if it leads to depression and burnout
• Habit stacking and visualization to go from unlikely behaviors to likely behaviors
• Dealing with common misconceptions around being a body builder
• Processing depression in the midst of becoming a public figure
• Evaluating the standards you define yourself by in the wake of burnout
• Relieving yourself of the obligation to help people and giving yourself permission to fail
• The simplest steps you can take to move towards health while in the throes of depression

Useful Links

The Intertia Project

About Guest

Genevieve founded The Inertia Project to empower other women to take control of their lives and habits. She focuses on fun, quick, effective workouts and incorporates behavior change techniques to make the changes stick. On top of running TIP, she works full-time in a demanding field – so she knows a thing or two about living the Side Hustle life while trying to not go insane. Genevieve put together a special bonus for the Optimize Yourself listeners to help them in their journey – [click here for more!]

Transcript

Zack Arnold: I’m here today with Genevieve Malone, who is the founder and creator of the Inertia Project, she’s also a certified personal trainer. She also has some crazy certification in behavioral psychology that just sounds so cool, I can’t even remember what it’s called. And just to make sure that I don’t bury the lead here, she’s also a civil engineer. Year turned female bodybuilder, so if that wasn’t enough, we’re going to get even deeper into learning about what has turned you into just this all-around badass. So, Gen, it is a pleasure to finally, finally get you on the microphone today.

Genevieve Malone: Well, the pleasure is all mine. I have, I’ve been waiting for this for quite some time.

Zack Arnold: Well, and the funny thing is, I probably shouldn’t say this, but this is actually part two of a podcast we tried to do, and because of the stupid connection he’s used with Skype. As a disclaimer, Skype will never ever be a sponsor for the show, and I’m never gonna interview with Skype again after the trouble we had. So, we just decided, let’s try something else, and then all of a sudden we could hear each other. It was a revelation, but enough about technology. What I want to talk about today is not going to be things like squats and hip threats and doing personal trainer stuff, and what we might talk about that stuff, maybe. But what I’m really interested in, the things that I like to talk about with my audience, are not just the successes that you see on somebody’s website, not just the before and after pictures, where people say, ‘Wow, they just look amazing. They look larger than life. I could never be like that, or ‘They’ve inspired me, but they must be perfect. And I’m doing all these things wrong. We’re actually going to talk a lot today about failure, because in my mind, failure is what truly defines character and leads people to being successful. So, before we kind of go down the road of the specifics and get into all the nitty gritty details of all the cool stuff that you do. I want people to understand a little bit more about who you are. So, let’s start with the origin story. Tell me a little bit about how you came to be first a civil engineer and then professional, or not, you’re not professional, right?

Genevieve Malone: No, no,

Zack Arnold: How you became a, you know, amateur female body builder, and now the creator of the Inertia Project.

Genevieve Malone: Perfect. Well, this story has lots of circles and loops, and is very nonlinear, so hopefully you can stick with me, because it gets weird. So, my background, as you said earlier, is in civil engineering, and I have a tendency to want to do as much as humanly possible, and just to, you know, see how far I can push myself. So, when I was in college, not only was I majoring in engineering, but I was also a Division One athlete. I rode for Notre Dame, and yeah, growing first off engineering, second off, you know, sports at Notre Dame are, you know, not really taken lightly, so you can imagine what that was like. From that, I obviously went to school in the Midwest, I was from the Midwest, hired by a company my senior year out of the Midwest, and they called me up on April Fool’s Day, and they were like, “Hey, you want to go to Vegas? and I totally thought that they were kidding, like I was about to be like, “haha, like that’s a good joke, and then it was not a joke. So a few weeks later I moved out to the middle of the desert, and as you can imagine, there was no rowing there, and it was actually, you know, a period in my life where it was really, really difficult, you know, all my friends and family were on the East Coast, and I was not. It was really, really hard to keep up with them, and so my relationships with them suffered. And at the same time, you know, I was working 1012, hour days, I was working weekends, I was working just crazy insane hours, and I didn’t really like the city itself, so there was a lot going against it, and really the only thing that kind of saved me when I was there was I worked with a personal trainer, and that kind of gave me a little bit more of the structure that I was used to from all of the sports, and it kind of gave me, you know, an outlet that I was used to. So, long story short, I quit that job, got a different one, still civil construction management back in Midwest, and I had always had kind of this, like, I guess pipe dream, I’m not sure what you would call it, but you know, looking like those women in like Oxygen magazine and Muscle and Fitness hers and all this stuff, and you know, I had always been athletic, but I hadn’t really been satisfied with how I looked, like it wasn’t unsatisfied, but I was just kind of like, you know, how you view like, like vegetables or something, they’re just kind of like there. I’m like, okay, like I look fine, but like I wonder if I could do that. So one of my coworkers, actually, he was, he was a strong man competitor, and he had done bodybuilding competition, so I sat down with him, and you know, we had several conversations about what it would take to actually, you know, transform and go through that process, and you know, similar to doing the stupid athlete stuff, when I was in college, I was like, yeah, this is really tough, so let’s, let’s just go for it, and so the whole process took about maybe like. For nine or 10 months, but yeah, I mean, I don’t even know, like, there’s so many emotions wrapped up into it, because you have, like, this vision of who you are, and then you have this vision of who you’re trying to be, and throughout the process, like, there are so many pitfalls and stumbles, and you know things that are really, really hard about it, and you just have to like have this ultimate faith in yourself that, like, no matter how wrong anything goes, like, no matter how his fan, like, you’re gonna stick with it, you have a plan, like, you’re gonna keep going, and it doesn’t matter what’s happening, like you’re going to come out on the other side, so fortunately that’s what happened, but yeah, it was, it’s not linear,

Zack Arnold: No, not at all, and one thing that just as a caveat, just to make sure we can continue in the podcast, I actually went to school at Michigan, so hopefully it’s okay that we’re on the same microphone together, and we’re allies and not adversaries. Now, if this go to Ohio State, I’d have to cancel the call.

Genevieve Malone: That’s all right. I wasn’t recruited by Michigan. I wanted to go there, so I’m kind of jealous of you.

Zack Arnold: Oh, okay. Well, that’s fine. You felt like Notre Dame was kind of your, your backup because Michigan was just too good. I’m okay with that anyhow.

Genevieve Malone: Yeah, that’s totally what I meant.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, but well, I want to go back to you talking about, like, hey, I want to find something that seems so outlandish, just because I want to know, can I do it? You are amongst friends, because that’s exactly the journey that I’m, what I’m on right now, that by the time this episode is released, my audience will know, and this will no longer be a secret. That the journey that I’ve chosen for this year is I want to be on American Ninja Warrior, and for somebody that is my age that has two kids that works about 60 hours a week in front of a computer, that’s the kind of thing that people would say, “Huh, really, you’re going to try and do that, but that’s the way that my brain works, and I think that’s why you and I connect so easily, is because we think I don’t want to just do something well, I want to do something so well that people say you shouldn’t even be doing that, and then do it, and you’ve gone through that process, and I, too, kind of, you know, I have those days where I’ll do training and I feel awesome, and I’m like, man, I can’t believe that I’m finally doing this thing I didn’t think I could do. And then I wake up the next morning and I say, oh my god, I’m 100 like I’m learning parkour for the first time in my life. I never did gymnastics, I never did anything acrobatic, and I’m doing parkour, and I put stuff on Facebook, and people are like, what are you doing, but it’s, it’s not going to be easier 10 years from now. So, the easiest it’s ever going to be for me is right now, but I have those pitfalls. But, like you said, there’s this image and this destination that’s in my mind that’s so clear that it doesn’t matter what barriers or obstacles come to my way, they might slow me down, and I might have to find a way around them, but I eventually get there. And what I want to go to now is, we talked about this some when we had our breakfast together a few months ago, which is how we ended up coming up with a brainstorm for this podcast, where you had this amazing journey for around a year, you have all the fantastic before and after pictures to prove it, but then everything didn’t go quite as planned, and you talked about something that is this dreaded word that I use all the time on my show, called burnout. So let’s talk a little bit about that, if you don’t mind, because I think that seeing the uglier side of success and people doing amazing things is so important for everybody’s journey,

Genevieve Malone: Absolutely, and you would be so surprised at how much I struggled looking like that. You know, everybody sees those pictures, and I mean, I still have them up on the website because I’m extremely proud of what I did, but oh my god, that took so much out of me. It was insane. I mean, yeah, I, I was working 10 hours a day, I was working weekends again, and not only that, but as you go through the process, obviously you’re dieting and you’re still doing really hard workouts, so your body has like accumulated stress from all of that, because not only are you, you know, stressed out because of your job, and you’re stressed out because you know you have to keep dieting, and you’re stressed out because you have to essentially like look a certain way by a certain time, and there’s, I mean, there’s no faking it on that stage, like once you have that bikini on and you’re all tanned up, like there’s there’s literally no going back, and everything that you did or did not do will literally show, and the difference between like first place and fifth place is nothing. I mean, when you can, when I compared myself to the women on. Stage, I was like, oh my god, I’m so inadequate, and it’s so weird, because you kind of get this like this tunnel vision of, like, you know, not worthy, and it’s just such a narrow focus that that you get so wrapped up in it, and and you get so stressed about that, and you know that that whole mindset itself, just, you know, doesn’t set you up for success, because you’re so afraid of losing it that it consumes you, that that fear is just all encompassing, and so I think that that stress too really contributed to, you know, actually losing it, and it was, yeah, it’s not fun, it’s scary.

Zack Arnold: Well, so now you’ve kind of talked about what it was that precipitated the beginning of burnout, and it’s this idea of frame of reference, and this is something that I talk about all the time in my online programs. I also talk about it on the podcast, I write about it on the blog, some, but it’s just this idea that we are basically just completely conditioned in our culture to always compare ourselves to others, and that’s how we define ourselves by how well we are compared to the success of other people, and I just refuse to buy into that, and one of the things that I actually find appealing about the world of bodybuilding that most people don’t realize, they think it’s just such a superficial sport, and everybody just wants to look strong, and what they realize is how much of an art form it can be to be a bodybuilder, where you’re saying, you know what, my right anterior deltoid is just a tiny bit bigger than the left anterior deltoid, and I really want to create this feeling of balance, so there’s a bit of a science in figuring out how can I build more of this balance within my body, that to me is something that’s very healthy. It’s this great competition within yourself to push yourself beyond specific limits to get better, but where it gets really, really dangerous is when you completely define your identity and your self-worth by how you compare yourself to other people, whether it is body building, whether it’s in your job, or whatever it is that you do. So now that we’ve kind of had this picture of what precipitated the burnout, if you don’t mind getting a little bit deeper into the weeds, I would love to actually talk about what burnout looked like, because I know that when I’ve gone through it, it’s not pretty, and I think that for other people that have either gone through it in the past or are going through it now, I think it’s helpful to know that they’re not alone.

Genevieve Malone: Yeah, absolutely. The burnout for me manifested itself in depression, so on the surface, you know, I had it all looking awesome, I mean, I love those pictures that I have of myself, and you know, doing well on my job. And then it was, it was weird. It was like all things started to kind of like unravel slowly, and then just kind of like spiral bigger and bigger and bigger and better, and I’d like had no idea what was going on, and it, I think, that like the first thing that I noticed was I was really anxious all the time, and I had never been like super anxious, I mean, I think that everybody kind of understands to a degree that like when you’re, you know, kind of, you know, push yourself that much, you, you kind of always have that, like, okay, I need to do this, okay, I need to be this way, okay, like, you know, keeping stuff, treading water, and I just like the wind went out of my sails or something, and it was like very gradual at first, and then I was like, I don’t care about anything, and at the same time I was gaining a lot of weight, which, as a figure competitor, who I’m, I mean, I’m used to seeing my six pack, I’m used to seeing, you know, the striations in my shoulders and stuff, and like in about six weeks, seven weeks, I put on almost 20 pounds, and I just remember like stepping on the scale and I didn’t even know what to do and like I thought that I was a failure because again you know I’m comparing myself not only to you know narrowing that focus like we talked about in the frame of reference was like so high but also comparing myself to my own frame of reference, and I had gotten used to that, and so dialing it back was extremely difficult, and you know, I was.. it’s kind of like hard to talk about it, because, like, I first off, obviously it’s hard to talk about, but second off, like I really don’t remember a lot of that time, you know, I had like all the symptoms of major depression, I had gained a lot of weight, my sleeping patterns were totally off, you know, my relationships, I was super. Were irritable, like I am, like amazed that people actually like still talked with me, you know, but I withdrew, I isolated myself, I had, you know, crying spells and stuff, but you know, I think that it just came as a surprise, because you know, I’m used to pushing myself, but I didn’t realize how far I had gotten, and that I had kind of gone over the edge until it was, you know, I was over the waterfall, as it were. So, I mean, I can, I can definitely appreciate, you know, the the strength and the fortitude it takes to not only, you know, go through that that fall, but also kind of try to piece it back on the other side, and and know that it’s not going to be what it was, but even if it’s different, it’s okay, and that’s kind of, you know, like the where I’m working from now, but I mean it’s been a full year plus since I was diagnosed with a depression, and I would say that only now I’m starting to be okay with, you know, widening that frame of be so particular in my goals.

Zack Arnold: Well, I can certainly identify with much of this, and I will also agree that saying, well, I don’t remember a whole lot of it, that’s not a cop-out. That is just kind of the way that the brain works when it’s in a deeply depressed state. Your memory just completely goes into the crapper, and it’s not just short-term memory, but you can go through an entire week, and somebody will talk about something that happened. You’re like, “Wait, that happened? I said, “What? Like, it’s.. it’s kind of terrifying. And just because I don’t want to feel like you’re, you know, floating out in the middle of the water all by yourself, I can go into a little bit of my experience as well. Just so you know, we can commiserate together, because I feel like a few people are actually willing to share what the other side of success really looks like when you kind of fall over that precipice, and I think also what is, we haven’t really gotten into, and maybe I can kind of spur this part of the conversation, is that there’s a different level of anxiety when you feel like you’re failing at something, but you’ve put yourself out into the world onto a website saying look at the fantastic things that I’ve done with my life, and people come to you, and they say, “You have no idea how you’re doing these things has inspired me to do these things, and all of a sudden you feel this pressure, and you’re like, “Wait a second, these people are looking at me on a pedestal, and I’m not sure I’m a righty for this, I’m not sure I’m comfortable with this, and I don’t like them only seeing the perfect side of me, and that hit me like a ton of bricks. You said that for you it was gradual, for me it happened in the span of about two minutes, where I went from being on top of the world and feeling fantastic, and I was putting together a launch for a five day challenge that I done, and I had 1000s of people sign up. It was like the most amazing thing ever. And then all of a sudden, and I swear to God, it was this simple. Somebody posted something in my Facebook group calling me a thought leader, and I was like, “Oh, what? Like, no, like, if obviously they were being nothing but complimentary, and they were so just so inspired by the work that they were doing, and I was like, hold on a second, oh no, no, no, no, no, dude, let’s not put me in that camp, and it was like the psychological trigger that happened, and I felt it. I viscerally, physically felt the change. I’m like, oh no, the depression is coming, and it’s coming fast. And within about days, I went from being on top of the world and having all this energy to barely being able to get out of bed, and that had happened to me before. And I figured, all right, well, I just need to get through this. Give me a week or two. I need to catch up on sleep and not work as hard, and I’ll be okay. And this period actually took me a year to get out of, which I could not even begin to comprehend. I never saw that. But what I realized, and I want you one of this a little bit more. I don’t want to steal the rest of the show from you, but I want, I wanted to make you feel like you weren’t alone in the misery, but I, too, was experiencing the worst anxiety I’d ever had before. I could not be around people that I didn’t know extremely well. I couldn’t be in crowds, and the other thing that happened that I’d never experienced before, because partly I was having insomnia, which I never get – like, I sleep like a rock, I’m like a sleep scientist, and I couldn’t sleep at all – I was experiencing outright paranoia, like people were out to get me, and like my life was the Truman Show, and it was just the weirdest thing, and I’m like, what is going on with my brain? But the reframe, and this is coming back to this idea of perspective, is, and I’m hoping this is going to be helpful to people that are listening to this that might also have put themselves out there into the world with a website or a story, or whatever it is, is I kept thinking to myself, if I can just get through this, and I know that I can, because I know this is just brain chemistry, if I can get through this, my God, is this going to be an amazing learning experience that is then going to help other people that are going through the same thing, and I want to know if that’s something that you experienced as well.

Genevieve Malone: Yeah, kind of. Of because I identify like 100,000,000,000% with like the first part and that last part that you just said of like coming out on the other side and being like my god this is you know crappy but great like I’m just like I still don’t believe it when I say it and so like me my fiance he has to like remind me constantly he’s like you will get through this, you know. There’s, there’s light at the end of the tunnel, you know. You have good days and bad days, and this is just one of the bad days. But, like, this, this is what your readers ultimately will need, because you can, you know, you’ve been there, you’re in the trenches. And so I’m, I still can’t 100% identify with that one, but like, when I do, you know, let’s have a beer, but yeah, that that first part of, you know, feeling like you’re on the pedestal is just horrifying, because like, I don’t know if you had like the ruminations and just like you know going back and micro analyzing, like everything that you ever did wrong, but that’s like, you know, my style of depression is like your terrible failure. Like I used to tell my fiance, like when the depression was getting bad, like I could start to separate out the thoughts, but like I used to call my depression thoughts like Peter Brett, are like you know, in forgetting Sarah Marshall, when he’s like, you know, moping around on the piano, and he’s like, everybody hates you, everybody wishes that you were dead, like that was my brain constantly, and I couldn’t turn it off, and I kept on seeing like these pictures of myself from, you know, two months prior, when I had a photo shoot, and looked like really good, and I was like, what happened in two months that I like couldn’t do it, and then I mean, obviously running like a fitness website, that’s what people think that you can do, and so I just felt like this huge failure and this huge fraud, and I mean, if, if you look back to my blog posts around December, January, February last year, I, I was like trying to be upbeat about it. I was like, you know, I’m I’m up 15 pounds, and you know, I’m my goal is to get back down by this date, and you know, answer everybody’s questions, and like, well, I’ll do this together as the New Year’s resolution thing, and then I didn’t lose any weight, and that was just so soul crushing. Like, it took me about six weeks, but like week five I was formally diagnosed with depression, and I was just like, I can’t do this, like I can’t put myself out there right now, like it’s just too painful, like it’s too hard, like writing those posts. I was like frickin bawling my eyes out or trying not to, because I just felt like I was letting everybody down.

Zack Arnold: That’s really what my form of depression looks like, and I think it’s very common where you were saying, you know, you had all these voices in your head, and for me, if I can sum up my depression in one sentence, is that I’ve let everybody down and they all hate me, that’s it, that’s my depression in a nutshell, and for me, I didn’t even continue to try to write, I just said I’m going to rebrand now, and I was planning on doing the rebrand anyway, so it’s not like I was making an excuse or lying even before any of this had hit. I had said, you know what, I’ve really realized I need to rebrand the site, I want to, you know, reach a larger audience beyond just this very small niche that I have right now. I want to help more people, so that was on the roadmap anyway, but then I was like, ooh, a rebrand is a really good excuse to just not for six months, so that’s kind of what happened. I got to the point, I think that the word that I’m looking for here, that we both alluded to, that we haven’t really nailed, and the reason I want to bring it up is that it’s important for people, even that don’t have a website or don’t have an online presence, and they’re thinking, well, I don’t know what that feels like, but what everybody has experienced in their lives is something called imposter syndrome, and I had never experienced that before. They always talk about it when you’re learning about how to do a blog or a podcast, and everybody, they’re afraid of starting or afraid of putting something out there. I’m like, what are you talking about? Like, just put up a podcast, just write a blog post, like, what’s wrong with you people? I’m like, imposter syndrome, right? That’s crazy. And then all of a sudden it hit me, not even like a ton of bricks, it hit me like a dump truck full of a ton of bricks, and I was like, oh, I get it now. And I couldn’t write, I couldn’t do anything, I was just frozen. And I think that’s something that so many people go through, especially in creative fields, because it’s not just about skill set. If you’re a data analyst or a lawyer or a doctor, like you have the certifications, you have the physical experience to do it, but when you’re creative, you’re giving people these ideas inside your own head that are very, very personal, and you feel like an imposter thinking, well, they think I’m good, but I really know that I’m not any good at this, and I’m just faking it, I’m just faking all this, and you know people are going to figure me. Out someday, and that to me was one of the greatest failures that I was feeling, is that everybody was going to figure out I was worthless, and I was a failure, and nobody’s ever going to want to hear from me again.

Genevieve Malone: Oh yeah, oh totally. I mean, I remember, like, you know, I was making YouTube videos, answering questions, and I was writing those blog posts, and I was just like, well, there goes my business, like 100% I was like convinced that everybody would hate me and stuff, and God, I wish I had the cop out of like I’m rebranding, not that it was a cop out, you know, because it was legit, but I just disappeared. I didn’t say a word. I think that my last email was like March, and I didn’t email my list again until July, I think, of last year, like I just, I couldn’t bring myself to do it, you know, because not only did I feel like a failure for, you know, gaining the weight, and you know, all that crap that goes along with suppression, but I, I didn’t know how to talk about it, and I didn’t know if I should talk about it, and probably the time it took for me to realize, like, yes, I need to tell you, know, I should tell my readers about this, and yes, it’s okay to do it, and you know, kind of, you know, put the gen spin on it, of you know, like I’m on the other side now, but like, God, it sucked, kind of thing, was probably about like two or three months, you know, I, I really struggled with whether or not it was appropriate to talk about, but you know, like, when I sent that email out, I just had this like feeling in my gut of just like this is the end, like I’m gonna email this out, and I like literally hit send and like turn off my computer and like ran away from it, like you know it, it was going to hurt me or something, like it was so dumb, but

Zack Arnold: Trust me, I know that feeling very, very, very well. I went from the point, I mean, you were part of the reason we originally met each other, just for a little bit more context, is that we found each other in an online business group, because I didn’t just wake up one day as a film editor and say, “Hey, I know how to blog and podcast and teach online courses and build a business via email. Sure, I had to learn how to do it, and I found some of the best groups and people and courses in the world, and you were one of the members in it. And for the first year or year and a half of my journey, I was doing extremely well and sharing all my successes, and they’re, you know, like small monetary successes, but they were big wins for the age of my business, so I, you know, I had very clear monetary goals and numbers and projections, and I hadn’t met those, and if you looked at the just the sheer, like, you know, one of the terms we use is like a conversion rate, anybody that I, if I just showed them a spreadsheet with no story, no context, they’d say, “wow, this is fantastic, but in my mind I created projections that I wanted, not that that were necessarily realistic, but the reason I say that is I got to the point where my goal was like right after the rebrand, or during the rebrand, I don’t remember exactly when, but it was months after all this had started. My goal was to send out an email, that was it, that was my benchmark. It wasn’t, oh, I need to get x number of sales, or I need to build a sales campaign, or whatever it is. It was, I just need to write an email, and I need to hit the send button. That’s it. That’s my entire goal for my business. Can I do this? And that’s how bad it got. So, I can completely relate to that terrifying feeling of, do I want to reach out to 1000s of people right now with the way that I’m feeling, and say all these things. So, boy, do I get that, and that’s the side that nobody ever sees, and that’s why I think it’s so important that people hear these stories, because they can look at the types of things that we’re doing, or the types of things that people with much larger presences are doing, and they just assume, well, they’ve got it all figured out. What am I doing wrong? And I can assure you, those people are doing things wrong too, they are just really good at keeping up this online persona, but everybody is making the same mistakes, and everybody experiences imposter syndrome at some point.

Genevieve Malone: Yeah, and to kind of piggyback off of that, like I didn’t tell you this, but I was one of those like kind of lurkers, and I was like, “Damn, Zach’s doing well, like he’s just like, oh my god, blowing it out of the water, and like one of those admirers from afar, and you know you’re totally killing it, and still are, and everything, and you know it was one of those things like we were talking about earlier, like narrowing your focus, and I was like, okay, like she’s doing this, I know I can do it, like I just need to send that email, you know, like just, just get it in there, kind of thing, but you know, as I shifted my focus away from that, like onto my own thing, you know, yeah, it, it’s weird how your goals shift over time, and especially like my, my goals were pretty audacious, and I’ve really had to. I probably one of the hardest things that I’ve had to do is really sit down, like with myself, and just be like, are these realistic, is this timeframe realistic, like given the capacity that I have right now, like, is this the best use of my time, and really kind of do this uncomfortable soul search of should I be doing this, and weighing the pros and cons of, you know, my like personal mental health versus like how much I can help other people, and it’s like a really weird calculus to do and think about, but I think that it’s, you know, again, the things that people don’t talk about is weighing out, like, how much of yourself you can and should give to people to help them, which sounds like selfish, but when you’re dealing with, you know, like trying to not kill yourself, like, you’re, you’re, you have to do those uncomfortable searches to really figure out, you know, where, where you stand and where that line is.

Zack Arnold: Well, and I’m glad you brought up this idea of the uncomfortable search and trying to set more realistic goals, and asking, given my state right now, is this something that I can even do? This to me was kind of the, the first moment of realization was that, you know, what I had all these ideas and pictures of where I wanted to be by this date, and I wanted to hit this number, and guess what, I didn’t. I failed. So I can either keep beating myself up for this, or I can start thinking about how do I learn from this failure, how do I dust myself off, how do I clean up my wounds and move forwards rather than just saying, well, I failed, I suck, I give up, I quit, right? And I’ve been through multiple obstacle course races, and I’ve fallen, and I’ve scraped things, and like I have failed on obstacles and headed in 30 burpees over and over and over and over, but what I have learned to do, and it’s taken time to do this, and I think this is the most important part of success, above anything else, is not thinking I failed, therefore I didn’t meet my goal, therefore I need to give up. It is I failed. Why? Why did I fail? What can I learn from it? And by the way, it was okay that I failed. That’s the biggest thing, is giving yourself the permission to fail, and not looking at yourself and being so objective and judgmental, and saying, okay, well, you just suck, so clearly you’re doing the wrong thing. It’s more about how do I learn from this experience and overcome it. And when you’re in that deep mental depressive state, and your biochemistry is a mess, it’s really hard to see that very, very thin line between, oh, I know that this is a failure, and it’s a learning experience, and this is just weird biochemistry, versus I suck, and I want to kill myself. Like, it’s hard to see the difference between those two when you’re in the fog, and people, when they’re outside of it, don’t get that, but you really have to find that little tiny voice in the back of your brain to be like, I still hear you back there, voice of reason, I know you’re there somewhere.

Genevieve Malone: Yeah, it’s like echoing around in your brain, and you’re like, hello, hello, hello,

Zack Arnold: Yeah, so the, but, and I also think that for a lot of people there is no voice there, because they’ve never experienced that. I went through that myself the first time I dealt with massive suicidal depression and burnout, I just thought that was it, I didn’t realize that it was biochemistry, or it was because I was exhausted or overworked or not sleeping, I didn’t understand any of this. So, there are a great deal, great number of people that don’t have that voice at all, but I’d been through it enough and had the perspective to say this sucks, but I know you’re going to get out the other side. So, in a way, and it sounds kind of masochistic, but it’s like, let’s just enjoy the ride. I’m depressed, so I don’t have to do anything, I don’t have to write blog posts, I don’t have to send emails, I got nothing to do, because I could barely function right now. So let’s enjoy it, and let’s watch seven seasons of Shark Tank. I did, I swear to God, I watched seven seasons in a row of Shark Tank all day long, thinking how much better everybody was than me. It was awesome. So I just kind of embraced it.

Genevieve Malone: Yeah, that sounds like a good time, yeah. No, it was, yeah, that brings me back to this time last year, because I was launching this product, and it was a relaunch, and it was, you know, a little bit risky, but I was like, I’m gonna do it, because I said I’d do it, and you know, like, as a former competitive athlete, like I know my limits and stuff, and like, I know how long it takes me to, you know, like lick my wounds and get up and heal, and like, what was different about this one is I lost that ability, like with the depression, it just instead of being able to lick my wounds, it was just, you know, like, you know, driving the knife in deeper and twisting it, and you know, making sure that there’s barbed wire to make it even worse, but yeah, it was, it was the strangest thing to go from, like, you know, being able to be a bouncy ball to, you know, being this delicate porcelain plate, or whatever, and just shattering at it and. I, you know, I, I think that once I kind of accepted, like, okay, this is brain chemistry, this is just, you know, something that is going on right now, and I, you know, did the classic depression thing of, like, I should be able to get over it, you know, I, I still wear that hat sometimes, but since I’ve been able to kind of recognize when that’s happening and that those aren’t actually my thoughts, it’s gotten easier to not succeed, and you know, when I see, you know, I mean, you’ve seen this, you know, people just unsubscribe for no reason other than, you know, I used to not take it personally during depression. I was like, “Oh, they hate me, I should, you know, jump off a cliff or whatever. And now I’m just like, “Okay, whatever. So it’s kind of like, you know, getting getting back to that mindset, and you know, having those parameters in place, so that when I start to experience those feelings and, and think those thoughts again, you know, being able to pull on the reserve of, like, okay, that’s not me, like, whatever I’ve been doing this day, have I eaten, have I worked out, you know, kind of taking like this mental checklist of like, should I be stepping back, and is that a reasonable thing for me to be worrying about right now, or should I just, you know, kind of let it, let it be, and then come back to him a little bit.

Zack Arnold: Well, what I want to talk about, actually, before we go into the next, this next thing I want to go off on a very brief tangent on one thing you said, which is this idea of I should just be able to snap out of this, right? And it’s easy to really beat up on yourself and say, why can’t I just get out of this? And then have other people say, well, why are you always so grumpy? Can’t you just be happy, or just get some sleep over the weekend, and you’re going to be fine on Monday? Like, it doesn’t work that way. And I want to make sure that people are aware if they didn’t hear it already. I recently released a podcast with Dr. Ben Lynch, who’s one of the foremost experts in the world on genetic analysis from all these brand new genetic tests, you can get, like, from 23andMe, and he does an analysis, and I actually did this test and found out that I have all of the genetic abnormalities that lead to a severe propensity towards depression, anxiety, and attention issues. So, when people say, ‘Well, just snap out of it, I can now show them the genetic results and say, ‘See, it’s not just me, and I don’t need more sleep, and that’s really, I’m not saying that because I care what people say about me, but I care because I want people to understand that it’s not their fault and they’re not necessarily broken. So that’s a really big piece of your picture that I want to make sure I don’t just kind of, you know, gloss over, because it’s such a big revelation in the world of depression and anxiety, where 10 years ago you didn’t have that, like nobody ever questioned somebody with type one diabetes, and they’re like, “Oh, you’re taking insulin for that, huh? I mean, I heard you can do with vitamin D, you just maybe sleep better and like have lower stress management, but you know if you’re going to do the insulin, yeah, I guess right, like nobody does that, but with depression it’s like, “Oh, you’re on Zoloft, huh? Yeah, no, I heard this thing that you know, if you just balance your diet and you go paleo blood, it’s like that, I don’t care, right? So that’s a total tangent. I want to make sure that people know that that resource exists, because it was a huge change for me. But what I want to start talking about and digging into, because I have this brand new certification that you’ve been working on, and you can clarify what that was, but it’s all about behavioral psychology, and I want to help people understand what some of the simple behaviors are that they can start taking to get themselves out of the hole if they have found themselves there, because I found that I always try to take on too many things at once, and I want to sleep better and eat better, and I want to exercise, and this and that, and the other thing, and I just said to hell with everything except one, and I said all I’m going to do until I get this right, I’m going to get my sleep under control, because I can try to start eating better, but I’m just going to be pushing a boulder up a mountain because I’m not sleeping and my hormones are all over the place, so I just don’t care about my diet, I’m just going to eat crap, and I’m still paying for that decision and still trying to burn that weight off, but I made the right decision, because focusing on only sleep until I got it right was the correct behavior. So, let’s start digging in to all of this newfound knowledge that you have, and let’s start talking about psychological behaviors and how we use that to help people improve if they’re in the state of depression or burnout.

Genevieve Malone: Yeah, absolutely. So, the official title is Behavioral Change Specialist. So basically it’s a bunch of psychology, because I had seen not only with myself, but some of the clients that I worked with, is like, you know, you can talk about, you know, the proper way to do a hip hinge, and you know you should do extra reps at x amount of weight, but like, if they don’t go to the gym, like, none of this matters, like, that is the underlying thing is consistency, and I was like, well, why am I able to do this in certain aspects of my life, like, obviously working out and stuff. And other people can’t, like it’s very mystifying to me, because it’s so easy for me, but then when I was reading through, you know, the course for behavior specialization, I was like, oh, oh, that’s why, and it was really digging into, like, as you said, the psychology behind why we do what we do, how we set goals, how we are consistent, the different social factors that play into everything that we do. You know how people influence us, you know how advertisers in the media kind of play into it too. So it’s, it’s not just like, you know, you’re weak, you’re lazy. It’s that there is a system for doing these things, and if you’re not educated in the correct system, like, of course, I mean, it’s like, you know, if you give me The Odyssey by Homer, but you haven’t taught me how to read, and then you’re grading me on, like, you know how well I can recite it, like, of course, I’m gonna fail, like, duh. So I think that, you know, talking about that, there is a science to behavior change, and it’s not because you’re lazy, it’s not because you’re stupid, it’s not because you’re not trying hard enough. It’s like you said, you need to focus on, you know, one thing at a time, it’s you need to learn how to make a goal, because that is a skill, but it’s all those other things that are wrapped up into actually being able to get your goals and to make them come true.

Zack Arnold: Well, I’m asking you a random question that I promise I’ve never asked in over 150 episodes of the show, and you’re gonna be like, what do you remember the show Pee Wee’s Playhouse from the 80s?

Genevieve Malone: I was born in 1988 so gonna say no. Sorry,

Zack Arnold: Oh my god, I totally dated myself. My kids watch it, so they know Pee Wee’s Playhouse. But anyway, anybody that knows the show, they’re gonna love this joke. For anybody that doesn’t, they’re just gonna hit the plus 30 seconds button like three times on their podcast player, but they have this gag where they have a secret word, right? So the secret word might be window or chair, or whatever it is, and every time somebody says the word, everybody goes crazy. There’s confetti, there’s bells, there’s whistles. It’s the most annoying thing on the planet. And my Pee-wee’s Playhouse alarm just went off, and you said the word systems. As soon as I heard that, I was like, “Oh my god, I love you. Systems are by far the biggest thing you need to incorporate in your life if you want to change your behavior. It’s not about, I just need to get motivated. I tell you what, go watch the training montage in Rocky Four, you’re going to be really motivated for like 90 minutes, you’re not going to be motivated three months from now, after you’re tired and you’re sore, and you’ve ripped all the skin off your hands from doing six foot laches between bars for an hour, like not that I have anything to do with that at all, and that’s not my story, but you need systems in place to change your behavior, so let’s start digging into what are some of these systems that I can introduce into my life to start changing my behavior and no longer blaming myself for the things that I keep failing at.

Genevieve Malone: Yeah, so there are two really easy ones that come to mind. So, first one is called pre-backing, which is a really weird word, but essentially what you do is you pair a likely behavior with an unlikely behavior to increase the chances that you’ll do the unlikely behavior, so for example, one of my readers, she emailed me, like, right off the bat, and she was like, “Hey, you know, I’d really like to, you know, do more push-ups, do more sit-ups, whatever her goal was, but I, I can’t find the time to do it, and I mean, I feel like that’s common for everybody. Everybody’s like, “Oh, God, I wish I just could find the time to work out and stuff. And so I was like, “Okay, you know, like, what do you do? What are your typical routines? And she’s like, “Yeah. So I get home from work, I walk the dog, and then, you know, sit down and watch some TV, and I was like, “Oh, yes, you have a dog, this is going to be so much easier. So, obviously, when you have a pet, you have to let them out and walk around and stuff. So, I was like, “Well, you know, obviously, that is a very likely behavior. It’s on a regular schedule. So, what we’ll do is, right after you walk the dog, go home, and you know, do 10 push ups, do 10 sit ups, and it worked like it seems really, you know, simple and easy to do, and that’s because it is, and that’s the beauty of it. So, if your typical routine is to, you know, get home from work, kick off your shoes, you know, sit on the couch, kick your feet up, and turn on, you know, whatever you want to watch, evening news or something. A really easy thing for you to do is, as soon as you get home, which is a likely behavior, the unlikely behavior would be to work out, so you know, you put on your. Netflix or whatever, but before you do that, why don’t you, you know, Google, like, or you know, on YouTube, search for, like, five minute yoga video, or you know how to, how to do something related to fitness, so that you have that cue of, you know, going home, but you also train yourself to say, okay, before I do this, the likely behavior I’m going to do this instead, so that works really well.

Zack Arnold: I love that. Basically, so I didn’t mean to interrupt you, but again, like you’re setting off my Pee-wee’s Playhouse alarm, like every minute, so it’s like, oh, behaviors and habits, like now we’re talking this, I could geek out on this for hours, I won’t, but I could, but just to kind of reiterate, the, and I’ve used some of this terminology before. What you’re talking about is habit stacking. You’re basically finding a habit, like, well, I know I have to walk the dog, so rather than saying, well, I guess maybe I’ll try and, quote unquote, find the time to do push-ups, you know, you’re walking the dog anyway, so you stack, like you said, that unlikely behavior, I like to use the word habit. The unlikely habit is you’re going to do 10 push-ups every day. The likely habit is you know you’re going to walk your dog every day, so start to connect the two together and use it as a trigger. But the other thing that I want to step in and say real quick, and this is going to be a little bit of me getting on my soap box, but it drives me crazy when people say I just can’t find the time. You are never going to find the time, because every single person has the exact number of hours in the day. I’ve got the same as Bill Gates and Elon Musk, and everybody else. Like, we’re never going to find more time. It’s not like there’s some guy that’s, you know, over in the Middle East that’s an archeologist saying, ‘I found more time under the sun. Like, it’s not there. We all have the same amount of time. Time isn’t something you find, it’s something that you prioritize. So, if you’re saying I want to do 10 push-ups, you don’t even need to really prioritize extra time. It takes what, maybe 2030, seconds. So, this idea of behavior or habit stacking, like you’re talking about, is so huge, and it’s the same thing that I did again, going back to this concept of not I want to train for American Ninja Warrior, it’s how do I get out of bed and live my life. It was, I just need to get to bed by 10 o’clock, that’s it. I don’t care if I eat all day, I don’t care if I get 50 steps for the entire 24 hour period, even though I missed her standing desk and treadmill of my desk. I don’t, all that’s out the window. The only goal is I’m going to get to bed by 10pm so what are the habits that I can attach that to? And then it was all right. Now, when I wake up, I just want to try and give myself five minutes to stretch, or once I stretch for five minutes, and that’s a habit, let’s meditate for five minutes, whatever it is. I started stacking one habit on top of another, and that’s what got me out of the hole of burnout. So that was a bit of an interjection, and I know you said you had two things, but I didn’t want to skirt over that, because habit stacking is such a huge fundamental part of building the system of doing something don’t feel like you can do consistently,

Genevieve Malone: Yeah, yeah, and an important caveat, I’m glad that you interjected, because that made me think of this is not to stack too many habits, so start with one, and then once you’re once that becomes a likely habit, then you can stack another thing on top of it. So, like, if your likely behavior is walking the dog, your unlikely behavior is doing 10 push-ups, so you accomplish the 10 push-ups. Now you can add to it. So it’s kind of like, you know, a stepping stone, I guess you would say, but yeah, habit stacking, pre-macking, all these words that are really great. So the second one, this is probably the easiest. Well, I’ll put an asterisk on that. This is it’s as intense as you want it to be, but it can be extremely effective, so visualization and imagery, so if you’ve ever, like, watched a sporting event, you’ve probably seen, you know, like the golfer, like right before he puts, he, he does like the practice swing, and and does everything, or like the gymnast before the Olympics, they’re always, you know, kind of in the corner, like with their eyes shut, like you know, kind of doing the flips before they actually do them. So imagery is great because you can actually trick your brain into kind of thinking that it’s already done something just by thinking about it. So if you make the images intense, if you think about, like, the exact environment, if you actually do the motions, or, like, you know, small ones of the big motions that you’re going to be doing. If you think about, you know, who you’re going to see, if you think about the time it is, if you make it as vivid as possible, your brain is going to have a really, really tough time thinking, like, oh, that wasn’t real. So, the beauty in this, and where I’m going, is that you can kind of simulate something to turn out how you want it. So, a lot of people, when they think about going to the gym, they’re like, oh my god, this is going to be terrible. I’m going to be there. I’m going to be wearing the wrong clothes. All the bros are going to be staring at me, you know. I’m going to be on the treadmill, and I’m going to be winded after 45 seconds, and you know the workout will be shot, or whatever. So that’s an extremely negative image, right? So, what if you turn it on its head? What if you imagine yourself and you’re like, no, I feel comfortable in the clothes that I’m wearing, you know. I know that the treadmill is going to be, you know, I’m going to be winded, but I know that I can stay on for at least five minutes if I need to, you know, crank the speed down, that’s fine, but I’m going to stay on for at least five minutes, and then you know, you kind of walk yourself through that, and then you’re like, okay, there will be other people there. I realized that they might look my way, but I know that they’re probably concentrating on their own thing, and you know, I just happen to be in the line of their gaze, they’re not staring at me, you know, kind of walk through that more positive image, and it just does wonders for your confidence. You can literally practice anything you want, like anything that you can think of, and turn it into something that you know benefits you. And it’s so fun to think of yourself, you know, like going there and being a badass, and, and the beauty of it is, like, if you, if you see that, and if you like concentrate on that enough, like, you will see yourself start to improve, and probably sooner than you really think.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I cannot emphasize enough how important this strategy is, and I know that it’s like all airy fairy, oh God, visualizations, like now you’re going to talk about affirmations and gratitude journal, right, but I only talk about things that science has said, “Oh, you know what, this actually works, and science has shown that this is a widely used and successful technique, especially for athletes. One example being somebody that maybe you have heard or not heard of is Michael Phelps, the most accomplished Olympian in history, and he’s famous for having this process where his coach would say, and again, this is going to date me and him, but right before an event, you say, “Okay, it’s time to put the tape in, it’s time to run the tape, right? of visualizing every single stroke of the race until he basically, it was automaticity, he didn’t have to think at all about the race itself, he had already done it in his mind 1000s and 1000s of times to create the neural grooves in his brain, and they actually have proven you can create those neural grooves, and then you don’t even have to think about it. You have such confidence that you’re going to be able to do it, that’s all you have to do is continually think about it, and it’s not a guarantee, but it’s definitely going to help get you further than not doing it, and why I think this is so important is because this is something that you can do when the only thing you’re able to do is lie in bed in the fetal position. You can visualize yourself, and you’re not.. it’s not like a year or year and a half ago, whenever this was, that I was lying in bed, literally thinking, “Gee, my family would probably be better off if I wasn’t here right now. Those are the kinds of thoughts I was having. I wasn’t simultaneously visualizing that, and visualizing myself running through the finals course of a Ninja Warrior course race, right? That there’s no way I would have ever believed that, but at the same time I was visualizing myself getting back to the point where I was exercising just for 10 minutes a day, or 15 minutes a day, knowing what that might be a month away, but I’m picturing myself doing it now. And then I got myself out of bed, and I could picture myself all right now. I am actually stretching it in the morning, taking a walk, whatever it is. I’m going to visualize myself actually doing some high intensity exercise, and then a month or two later that started, and it’s just kind of the snowball, but the key, like you said, is that you just, you have to visualize what that looks like to run through it first, and you actually start to convince your brain, oh, I can do this, and anyone can do some form of visualization, even in the deepest stages of burnout and depression.

Genevieve Malone: Yeah, yeah, and it’s important, like, if you’re in those stages of burnout or depression, like, your thoughts kind of get carried away, right? If you find yourself in that negative spiral of going down of everybody’s going to hate me and stuff, like stop for a second, like refocus, remember that positive image and kind of your intent for doing it, and and try again, so so that you have, like you said, that neural group of the positive instead of the negative, which is hard to do when you’re depressed, but yeah, if you find yourself going down that that negative pathway, just stop, reframe, refocus, and get that positive thought.

Zack Arnold: Well, I could, we could probably geek out on this for at least another hour or two, because I got just getting warmed up, and you just, you hit all the, all the bonus words for the day, like consistency and system habits, like going crazy here. I really, I mean, we’re, we both kind of run over because of our, you know, our failed first attempt of our practice episode of this show. But you know, now we’ve gone over the time anyway, but it’s totally worth it. So, I don’t think we’re going to be able to dive too deep into anything else at this point. However, the really, really good news is that you have a whole ton of free stuff that you want to give to my listeners to help them go deeper into some of these ideas. So, most importantly, before we go, I want to make sure people know exactly how to find you, if they want you to work with them to help them, if they just want to read your stuff, if they want to be inspired by you, or they want to get your free bonuses. How do they do so?

Genevieve Malone: Yeah, absolutely. So, go to my website, which is www dot the inertiaproject.org and for the readers, or listeners, I guess, of this podcast. What I’ve done is I’ve put together a worksheet on the visualization to kind of walk you through the steps to take. I’ve also included a workout that you can do – well, three workouts, actually – that you can do anywhere. They don’t require equipment, they’re about 15 minutes long. There’s one that’s actually kind of fun in there, and I really like to do, so I’ve offered that to you guys. And then also, I know that you know healthy eating isn’t really something that’s very easy when you’re doing, you know, such high intensity work and have such demanding hours. So I’ve put together a shopping list, and then recipes for a week’s worth of food, so that you guys don’t even have to think about that either, and they’re tasty. When I was doing figure competitions, I ate those exact recipes, so either you’re going to love them or you’re going to think that they’re great. Those are the only two options, but they’re little the same things that I used in order to be a bodybuilder, so that should be a lot.

Zack Arnold: Well, I’m, I’m personally all over these because I’m getting really, really bored with the stuff that I’m eating. I’m not even trying to be a bodybuilder, I don’t care about figure, but the one thing I have to do is lose this giant 25 pound weight vest that I put on from the last year burnout, because if I’m going to be hanging from obstacles, I can’t have extra weight. So for me, it’s just about efficiency, and meal planning is something that’s getting very, very difficult for me, and I’m scanning through this list right now, and it is awesome, and it’s not just about people that are doing high intensity training. If you just want to feel lighter and not eat crap all the time at the office, and more importantly, if you want to be able to focus and have consistent energy throughout the day, the kind of stuff that you have on here looks really, really good for all that as well. So, I highly encourage anybody that’s listening right now, whether or not you want to be a female bodybuilder, or you’re crazy enough to try out for American Ninja Warrior, or you just sit at a desk and you want to be a little bit better at life without sacrificing your sanity in the process, then I recommend you go to the Inertia project.org and where specifically can they get these bonuses? What you want me, I can just make like a hyperlink for you specifically, like I can do Optimize yourself.me/inertia and then we can, we can direct them to their free, free gifts.

Genevieve Malone: Yeah, that sounds perfect.

Zack Arnold: Okay, well, then Optimize yourself.me/inertia is where you’re going to find these fantastic free guides, and I’m looking through all them. You’re right, there are a couple of workouts here that would be really cool, even for like the office, where you just take a quick 20 minute break, or lunch break, or whatever, which is all the kinds of stuff that I’m about. Is how do I move more throughout my day and get in more exercise? So this is perfect for the people that actually get to this point in the interview and are not tired of listening to me talk. I know they’re not tired of listening to you, but they’re probably tired of listening to me. So, if they made it this far, they got to the really good bonus. So, on that note, I want to let you go and have the rest of your Friday evening to yourself, and I want to be respectful of your time. But this has been tremendously beneficial for me. I hope it’s been tremendously beneficial for my audience, and I’m glad that both of us persevered and got over the inertia of trying to make this thing happen, so

Genevieve Malone: Yes, wonderful. Well, it was such a pleasure, Zack. And yeah, I’m just really honored to be honest and be able to help your readers.

Zack Arnold: Well, I’m glad that I could have you on as well, and I learned a lot myself today, and I hope that everybody else did as well. So I really, really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Episode Credits

This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared and published by Jakin Rintelman. Special thanks to Krystle Penhall and Sarah Furie for helping to spread the love!

The original music in the opening and closing of the show is courtesy of Joe Trapanese (who is quite possibly one of the most talented composers on the face of the planet).