My guest today is Laura Nguyen, a burnout coach and author of Career Break Compass: Navigating Your Path to a Balanced Life Through Intentional Time Off. While her book focuses on taking career breaks by choice, we tackle a question that hits close to home for many creatives right now: What happens when the career break chooses you?
Laura and I address the overlooked idea that even a lack of work can lead to burnout—how the uncertainty, panic, and self-doubt that follow job loss can weigh just as heavily as being overworked. We examine the root of this panic, often tied to feelings of shame and embarrassment, and how these emotions can intensify the experience.
In our conversation, Laura offers actionable steps to regain balance and a sense of purpose, even when downtime feels overwhelming. We also discuss why creatives are especially prone to burnout—exploring the emotional exhaustion, dissatisfaction, and self-imposed pressure. More importantly, Laura reveals the mindset shifts that can make a real difference in moving forward.
Whether you’re navigating an unexpected break, feeling stuck, or simply looking for new ways to manage burnout, this episode is packed with insights to help you take your next step with clarity and intention.
Laura Nguyen is an experienced marketing executive and entrepreneur with an extensive background in data-driven marketing, digital marketing and communications for Fortune 500 companies. She is the founder of Solle Solutions, a marketing consultancy. Laura is also a certified executive coach, helping mid-career, high-achieving leaders go from burned out to balanced through her coaching program and online community.
Laura received her Bachelor of Arts and Bachelor of Science at Truman State University, and her Master in Business Administration from Rochester Institute of Technology. She lives in Des Moines, Iowa, with her family.
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Zack Arnold: I'm here today with Laura Nguyen, who is an experienced marketing executive and entrepreneur with an extensive background in data driven marketing, digital marketing and communications for Fortune 500 companies. She is the founder of soul solutions, a marketing consultancy. And Laura is also a certified executive coach, helping mid career, high achieving leaders go from burned out to balanced through her coaching program and online community. Laura, it has been a long time coming, a lot of calendar Tetris back and forth, but by God, we finally got you on the podcast today.
Laura Nguyen: Zack, I'm so excited to be here. It's been I'm so looking forward to this conversation, so I appreciate it.
Zack Arnold: You are more than welcome. So here's where I want to start. I want to kind of set the table. For you and for the listeners. There's a whole lot of things that you talk about in your book and in your work in general. And the three that I kind of gravitated towards were first just kind of starting with a baseline of understanding and defining burnout. And one of the things that I loved about your work was actually breaking it down into different types. So we're going to talk a little bit about a little bit about that, how we can intentionally use what you call career breaks, right? So we can reconnect with our purpose, so we can reconnect with our creative calling. Because, as we discussed, the large majority portion of those listening consider themselves creatives, not necessarily, you know, C suite executives or middle managers at Fortune 500 companies. So this might be a slightly different angle than you're used to taking. And then the other thing that I want to talk about are a lot of your strategies and mindsets, where we can really kind of take these breaks intentionally, or we can build our life around our work, rather than always building our work around our life. So that's that's kind of the angle that I want to take today. But here's where I want to start. I would like to welcome you to the next meeting of overachievers. Anonymous, hi. My name is Zack, and I'm an overachiever. Would you like to introduce yourself today to the group?
Laura Nguyen: Zack, I'm Laura. I also am an overachiever, recovering over achiever. So yeah, I spent, you know, 20 years in the corporate marketing side, and found myself really experiencing some extreme burnout in my last role. But what I recognized was when I got there, I wanted to understand how were the steps in the building blocks that actually led me to this point of burnout. Because it doesn't just happen overnight, right? There are habits, and there's routines that we start putting in place, and honestly, behaviors that lead us to burnout. And so I think that was really the key for me, was, how could I get to this point in my career and hit this invisible wall and then have to figure out, how do I kind of backtrack a little bit and find a way that's going to allow me to kick burnout but also be more thoughtful and intentional about how I live my life.
Zack Arnold: I love all that. And I'm going to start by actually, because we're, you know, sharing in over achievers, anonymous. Many of my longtime listeners have probably heard this story, but I'm going to very briefly talk about, like, the singular moment of burnout where I realized everything had to change. And then I want to hear yours, because it's one thing to kind of hear about this, this this revelation, but it's another to actually feel it in a What was that moment and what did your life look like? So the shortest version for me is that I had worked many years in my career to climb to the top of the television industry as an editor. And I was working on Season One of the TV series Empire, which, for anybody that might remember at the time, was breaking all the records. It was a cultural phenomenon. It was on the front of every single magazine and internet site like everybody was talking about the show. It was the water cooler show of the entire country simultaneously, while I was working on a project where I knew 25 million people would watch my work, I was putting my kids to bed via FaceTime over and over and over and over, and I will never forget the moment where one night, once again, putting my kids to bed via FaceTime with my wife on the phone. It was my son who was give or take about seven at the time, and I think my daughter was five. My wife thought she had hung up the phone, but she hadn't. And I heard my son say to her, why doesn't daddy want to put us to bed at night? Why doesn't he love us, and that was it. That's where I said, this is not the life that I wanted to build or design. And went through probably the worst bout of burnout and depression that I'd ever experienced. That was my moment. What was yours?
Laura Nguyen: Yeah, um, I think that story is so relatable. Zack, you know, I think, like, as a as a mom, so young kids too, you know, like I was, I remember the times when I was taking calls while I was like nursing her, really, right? And I the number of times I would just be looking at my phone and putting her to bed. But I think the moment for me was I had, I just read, you know, we had brought on a rebuilt our team post COVID, and I had brought on someone to help lead all of our paid marketing work, and she's just phenomenal, super bright, really collaborative, and loved working with her. Two months into working together, she had to go to the hospital and she found out that she had cancer. So you know, really, we were about the same age. Amanda about same age. We have kids the same age. And so the diagnosis was, she's got cancer, but we are going to fight it. And they, you know, the doctors think that it is, you know, they were optimistic that it was going to be treatable. And so, you know, as time went by, it was probably about 15, maybe 16 months. And then she had decided that she was going to take a leave, a medical leave, to start some new treatment. And I had shipped her, like a box of, like a care package box, right? Like every month we had been shipping her boxes, and it had little things for treatment and those types of things. And it was odd, because that FedEx box got returned, and I got a notification from FedEx saying that the box was returned because they couldn't deliver it. And I had remembered her saying that her family might actually be, you know, traveling, and they're gonna go spend some time, you know, by the coast. And so I didn't really think much about it, Zack, but then I got a call from her husband that she had passed, and I remember really vividly, just like the raw emotion of seeing her from diagnosis until you know that fast forward of 16 months, and I spent, I think the next, like four weeks, just holding my daughter and just crying every night. Like I'm getting actually a little emotional, just thinking about it now. But for me, that moment was, is this what I want to keep doing, like, is this what I'm focusing on, you know, like at the end of the day, there's only so many moments that we have with our loved ones and our families, and we don't know how long we're going to be alive for. And so she was extremely young, and her kids, you know, were starting kindergarten, and she wasn't going to be there for it. And I was like, I'm not, I'm not going to do it anymore.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I can relate to to a lot of that, and I think that there's a lot of people listening that can relate to a lot of this too, because over the last, give or take, four now, I guess almost going on five years, I've noticed a very similar pattern with a lot of my students and clients, where when the pandemic hit all of a sudden, whether you liked it or not, we were forced to hit the pause button, and we had no choice but to reflect. And the most common kind of realization that most of the people in my community came to is, what the hell am I doing with my life? Right? It's that they were so busy just focusing on getting to the end of the week, right, getting to the end of the month, just getting through all these crazy, long exploitive hours that they have in the entertainment industry, and frankly, so many other industries where workaholism is essentially a badge of honor in American culture. But with this forced reflection, it was what is it that I want to do with my life? But then underneath that was, what am I meant to be doing? What am I called to doing? Rather than it's about climbing this ladder towards the, you know, cultures or some industry's version of success, and from when I was reading both with your own story, but with the work that you've done in executive coaching, it sounds like you've recognized similar patterns as well. Yeah, for sure,
Laura Nguyen: right? Like, as you think about we can think about, we can think about it statistically, but what we really think about is, how does it feel in our body, right? Like so many of us are just running, we're sprinting on autopilot. We're completely reactionary to whatever is on our Google or Outlook calendars. Typically, we're juggling a million things, and our attention is never actually on the place where we are. And so I think a lot of the times we talk about the badges of honor, like you were talking about, right? Which is, you know, overwork is is normalized, like self sacrifice is normalized. In order for you to be able to move to the next level, you have to have your boundaries completely encroached, right, and move into a world where you have to continue to work, work, work, work, even on vacation. But I don't think that is necessarily when I think about the times when somebody had asked me to bring my laptop. Over the last 20 years, no one had actually asked me to take my laptop. I felt the need and desire to make sure that I was always available. And I think that is really for me, the awakening or the separation is to understand what is society telling us and what have I internalized that's then changing my behavior to be disingenuous to myself or even just hurting myself. And so I think that was the key. Is, how do you learn to shape and shift boundaries in a way that says, How do I prioritize myself without, ultimately, you know, saying I'm going to not care about my career, because that's not, that's not the truth, right? We still can care about our career, continue to grow, but not have it at the expense of our health, our well being and our happiness.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, you and I are exactly on the same page, and I say it in a slightly different way, which is without sacrificing your health, your relationships or your sanity, right? So you and I, we're very much on the same page. And this reminds me of, kind of the this meme that I've seen, you know, pop up here and there, and, you know, different work circles and different social media circles, where it's the difference between the out of office notification for somebody in Europe versus somebody in America. Okay, it's always some derivation of the European out of offices. I'll be unavailable for the summer. We'll get back to you in the fall. In the American one is in the middle of a kidney surgery. We'll make sure to get back to view by back to you by end of day, right? So for those that are wondering, how did I get here, first of all, it ain't all your fault. Like this is culture, and I'm gonna double down. It's not just normalizing overwork. I think it's both encouraging it and downright expecting it. It's, I think we're beyond normalization at this point. It's not like, Oh, this is acceptable. It's like, this is the status quo. Overwork is the only path for you to get to the success that you seek. I think that's just expected. Yeah.
Laura Nguyen: And I think it's a downside when you think about, I mean, it's gonna be really an interesting shift when you think shift when you think about generational breakdowns as well, right? So I think I recently had seen a statistic that Gen Z have taken more sick days than any other generation. And I think that's a fascinating kind of finding, right of what are the shifts and priorities that a Gen Z person has, versus, say, a millennial or a Gen Xer. And I think a lot of the times we give them a lot of crap for taking that time off. But I think what it really speaks to is, how are they prioritizing health and well being as a part of their day to day life? How are they prioritizing that, and how are they putting that into action? But then I think the other layer that I think is a big gap is, how do we support people, what, regardless of generation, and being able to take that time for themselves? I don't think there's enough conversation for us of, how do you prioritize, say self care in a way that is, say productive or meaningful for you, and not have it be something that feels like it's bubble baths, right? Or going on a spa day, like it's so much deeper than that. And I feel like having that deeper conversation, normalizing care, self care in a different way, is really the direction we need to go.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I mean, obviously that's absolutely the reason that you and I are talking today. And I like this idea that you really brought up this generational gap, because every single generation this is happens over the cycles of history, as you get older. Oh, this, this younger generation ain't willing to put in the work, and they're so lazy, right? And I'm, I'm a late Gen Xer and, like, right on the bubble between Gen X and millennials. So technically, I'm called a zennial based on when I was born, but I'm 100% Gen X and 0% millennial, right? And it was all about all the you know, these Gen Xers, they're just lazy and apathetic and they don't care. And some of that may be true, I think largely it isn't. But what I really appreciate about Gen Z is that it's not about laziness or I don't want to do the work. It's that I value myself and my time, and I feel that they're much more confident in setting boundaries because their conditioning has been different than the conditioning of those previous generations, that's something that I really respect and value. And when I started doing this kind of work, and it was much more of a side hustle 10 years ago, but being one of the first in my industry to publicly talk about the word burnout, and people like you, I can't believe you said that, and people like me too, right? And that's when they started to realize it wasn't just them, but I think that now normalizing it, not just as this thing that we can talk about, but actually working towards it. I've always said like this is a 50 year journey for me. Like this is a generational divide of getting, like, building the next generation to actually set those boundaries and have those values. And I feel like I'm starting to see that, that sea change happening everywhere, which I'm very encouraged by, yeah, I
Laura Nguyen: think so. I think it's kind of giving us, in some way, you know, the other generations, a permission to be able to set a different standard. And I think part of it is, yes, COVID, right? With such a driving factor to one, the recognition that mortality is real, and how do we prioritize ourself and our well being? But I think the other side to that is post post COVID, you know, post pandemic, type of mindset then becomes, how do we turn this into something that becomes sustainable, ongoing for us, right? That it's not a moment in time, but it's an ability for us to take care of ourselves. And with this return to work that's happening for so many organizations at the beginning of 2025 we have to also start thinking about, how do you start to prioritize yourself, wherever you are, whether that's remote work, or whether you're going into an office setting or you're going into a studio, whatever that is like being able to be more thoughtful and planned about how you ensure you're taking care of you.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and obviously, much of the work you do in your book and elsewhere is talking about taking this career breaks, being really intentional about, like you said, it's not a bubble bath or a spa day, which both sound wonderful, but it's really more about actually pausing, not just for a day or a week, but literally for months in some cases, and asking a lot of big questions. But before we get into this and we talk a little bit more about, I really want to talk more about the different types of burnout that you lay out as well, but there's an elephant in the room that I'm going to need to address. And the elephant in the room is that you're talking about how to intentionally choose a career break. But for so many people, at least, As of recording this, and my hope is somebody listens to this in 10 years, and it's as useful, but as of recording this, people are not intentionally choosing breaks, the break. Brakes are choosing them, and they didn't see the brakes coming. So I want to address that elephant in the room first, where somebody's thinking, this is all great, but what the hell like I'm not intentionally choosing how I'm going to spend my time and my self care and my priorities. I just lost my entire way of life, and I have no idea who I am or what I what I'm supposed to do next. So how do we address that elephant in the room before we go forwards.
Laura Nguyen: Zack, I love that you bring this up, because when I talk about breaks, you know, it's so interesting. I think about it in different ways. There's definitely folks who were who took an intentional career break where they quit their job and there's nothing. There's no this time in between their next role. There's people who are taking a sabbatical, so they're taking time off, away from their work, but then they go back to that same job, right? So it's a company kind of provided benefit. There's people who are taking a leave of absence who is basically, you know, that could be a medical leave of absence or a voluntary leave of absence, or you're taking time away from work that is basically an HR kind of oriented piece. Those are all voluntary in a lot of ways, like but the involuntary kind of approaches, if you were laid off, all of the practices that we talk about in the book are applied regardless of whether it's voluntary or involuntary. And the reason I talk about that is it's actually sometimes more important for involuntary career breaks, because oftentimes in that moment when that choice is made for you, it almost becomes kind of a binary feeling or a sentiment. One is, I'm relieved because someone made the choice for me, and I have now this cushion, or this ability to use this time, right? The second piece is panic and essentially a crisis of confidence. And the tools that we talk about in the book are really come down to, how do we, you know, tame our inner monster, right? Which is managing that crisis of confidence when you're out feeling alone and managing through that and so I think the key is play pause, plan and pursue which are the pillars in the book are just as critical, if not more critical, for folks who have an involuntary break we're in, as well as for those who do take a voluntary break.
Zack Arnold: And we're definitely going to get to those. But I want to dig deeper into the other P which is panic. The most common Hot Seat conversation I'm having with my students in my community right now, when they're scheduling office hour sessions is I've been laid off, or I'm the in my industry. People don't really work full time jobs. They're freelance, and they go from project to project, whether that's week to week, six months to six months. I haven't had a quote, unquote, full time job since 2003 and that was a job that I left because I said there's no way I'm going to show up nine to seven and be expected to do whatever they hand me. I want control over the work that I do, the stories that I tell them, the people that I work with. So I haven't had a full time job in over 20 years, and somehow I still have a roof over my head. But it's not so much about being laid off. It's about there literally not being any work available in the industry, or having to fill these giant gaps when you don't want to fill the giant gaps. And the most common question is, what can I be doing to finding work? Because I'm in total panic mode and I don't think I'm ever going to work again, and I can't afford anything. And to say to them, you know, be really intentional about taking time for yourself and playing and finding your passion and your calling. I'm doing my best to encourage them to play a game of chess and not checkers. It's so hard for me as a coach to get them past the panic phase. How do we do that? Yeah,
Laura Nguyen: I think it's so true, right? Because our natural inclination is to go to worst case scenario, right? And so the key is, is that allowing them the space and having the methodology of saying, Okay, let's go to the worst case scenario. And this happens. So the first, you know, typically, what people will say is, I'm going to lose my house, right? I'm not going to be able, not going to be able, I'm not gonna be able to pay rent, so I'm gonna get kicked out. I'm gonna live on the streets. We're gonna be totally homeless. And so the question goes, Okay, what would you do if that happened, right? Would you be, would you be able to go stay with family for a few weeks? Could you stay with a friend? Could you, you know, rent, you know, something else, like something that would be significantly cheaper? What would those opportunities be? And you you kind of walk them down, walk them kind of from worst case scenario to a point of, okay, what's the realistic outcome? And typically, there's more than you know, there's like, maybe three realistic outcomes that could happen. And then we can start actually working with tangible scenarios. Of, let's say, for example, you do have to go live with, you know, your family, or you might have to move for a few weeks. What does that look like for you? Who would be those two to three people you could reach out to to have a backup plan to be able to make that happen, and then they, gives them a little bit more comfort of okay, the worst case scenario, even if that did happen, I can plan for that in advance to be able to manage my life, my stress, you know, everything else that's happening at the same time. I think the other pieces that we have to also work through is, why is that panic coming up? Is it a feeling that you're not enough? Is there actually an inadequacy component that's actually coming up, versus the homelessness? So there's more of the kind of inner demons, the inner critics, that are coming up for them, especially for creatives. I feel like as well, right? That there's a lot of inner critic that happens to manage through those in a way that says, Okay, what's that voice telling you? How can you be able to listen to that voice but also allow it to flow through you and not let it control you? And there's kind of a different piece of that's where pause comes into play, of being able to kind of manage through that in a different way.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, yeah. I was just thinking the same thing as my producer, Debbie, who's behind the scenes, and her question was, were you at our retreat this weekend? Because we literally talked about all of this, I do. I have a year long mastermind group that I work with, and we did an in person retreat over the weekend, and I swear to God, you had a security camera, because you were just hitting all the bullet points that we were talking about, kind of this inner critic, this inner demon, managing these limiting beliefs. And one of the exercises that I often take my students through is basically gamifying worst case scenario, right? Let's see how creative you really are. And somebody will say, Oh, you know, worst case scenarios, I can't pay my rent and this and that, and I'm like, you haven't even gotten started, like, and I go dark, like, when I share my worst case scenario, they're like, holy shit, that's really dark. I'm like, that's the point, right? I have a very vivid imagination. I can come up with all these horrible scenarios. But then one of the questions I always ask myself or my students is, what evidence do you have to support that this is going to be the outcome, right? And for me, having been through, and this is not something I talk about on the podcast too often, but back during the housing crisis of 2008 2009 I and my wife bought our house at the peak of the market, and it went underwater. We We bought it with a 20% down payment, and not only did it go below the down payment, we were underwater an additional $100,000 and we ended up losing our home. So I've literally been in the position where I know that anxiety of thinking we're going to lose our home, we're not going to have anywhere to live, and it wasn't the ultimate thought of we're literally going to be out on the street. It was the shame and the embarrassment. That's what I was terrified of. We ended up literally leaving the keys on the front steps so the bank could pick it up, and we walked away. We got a house to rent. We've been renting ever since, right? But it was the shame and the embarrassment that kept me up at night more than I'm actually going to be homeless and I'm going to be a drug addict under the bridge, and they're going to put me in a, you know, in a in a facility, and I'm, you know, going to die, right? Like it was really the shame and the embarrassment that scared me
Laura Nguyen: the most. Oh, for sure, it's the What will people think? Right? What will people think? What will my family think? What will my friends think? What will my colleagues think? What will the industry think? Like, you can start to go down such a worst case scenario. Piece of that and that, that piece of, What will people think is when we talk about kind of, you know, managing those limiting beliefs and kind of reframing that is so important because there's that underlying shame for us becomes so loud, especially for those who are planning a break, as well as those who are in their break, right? And then a lot of my you know, community members who are just re entering the workforce, how do I talk about this in an interview? How do I say that I haven't been working for three months, right? And it's actually always easier than we think it is, but it's about our own internal dialog of being able to work through that, to be able to manage how we can communicate in a more confident way, because we have to be confident internally. Yeah, agreed,
Zack Arnold: and that's something that I've talked about with my students as well. Where it's not I haven't worked in three months. For a lot of people, it's now, I haven't worked in almost two years. But if you look at the state of the industry or the state of the economy, clearly you're not alone. And at this point, people are going to see a gap in your resume, and they're just going to assume it's probably because of what was going on, right? But I always tell them that even if that's not the case, like, own it. Like, be confident. This is the reason that I took a leave of absence. It was I wanted to be with my kids, or just I wanted to, you know, I wanted to pause. I wanted to reflect. Like, as long as you can confidently answer what you know, what's with the gap in your resume? For the most part, people not only don't care, but they actually respect it themselves, like they're like, Man, I wish I had the confidence to take a break and do that right? But I think that the components that I really want to dig deeper into which kind of connects with the shame or embarrassment is back to the core of this conversation, which is burnout. And I feel like even to this day, with huge changes in the way the culture approaches burnout, especially this younger generation, it is still something that is so shameful that people take So personally, like, what have I done wrong to be at the place where I'm burned out, I must be weak or I must be broken, right? So I want to talk about, kind of some of the these different types of burnout that you mentioned, and then I want to point out what I think might potentially be an omission. And I want to see what your thoughts are about this. Okay, I love it. Love it. So you you use these are the different types of burnout that you mentioned in the book, right? You've got work burnout, which is kind of the obvious one that we're mostly talking about. There's overload burnout. There's under challenged burnout, which I really love the way that you classified that as a category, because that's really an underserved version of burnout, of just being bored and unfulfilled by your work. There's also neglect burnout. There's parental burnout. There's caretaking burnout, there's relationship burnout, all of which I very much agree with, and I love how you broke them down to me, and I'm obviously biased, but there's one huge glaring omission, which is creative birth, creative burnout, yes, right, and that this was one of the areas where I found your audience very, very different than mine, and that you're saying, one of the ways you can recharge is by reconnecting to your creativity. And in my industry, it's often our passion that gets taken from us because we have to be creative on demand, all day, every day, and what we lose is the ability to generate ideas and solve problems like for me, as a former TV and film editor. I don't do it anymore, but what you do as an editor is you make 1000s of micro decisions all day long. And I would get home and I'm at the point where anybody would ask me anything, I've literally said word for word, I have no more decisions today. I cannot make any decisions. Please talk to me about this tomorrow, because I can't make choices right now, right? So that creative burnout is very, very real. So let's talk a little bit more about creative burnout, how it fits into this rubric that you have. And for those where their creativity is what burned them out, how that changes, some of the ways you would suggest that we find this way to, you know, take a career break. Yeah,
Laura Nguyen: I love that. And I love that you call that out as a as a component of what's the gap, right? And I think, to your point, my own personal view at the time was I had felt like I had lost my creativity, right? And, and I had felt like I had, you know, the problem solving muscle that I had had was so fatigued that I couldn't figure out what felt like simple issues, you know, like there was such brain fog that I couldn't get through it. So when we talk about creative burnout. I think about it as there's actually seven different types of rests that I talk about in the pause chapter. And I think one of the key things that we think about when it comes to creative rest is because you are so deep in problem solving constantly, you know, when you're when you especially, let's say you're in film, like when you're watching TV, you probably can't relax the way that I do when I'm watching TV. You see it through such a different lens. And so with that, it's almost like, what are areas for you to decompress and unplug and give yourself a sense of exposing yourself to different types of maybe art or something that would be nature is always a key component, right? That allows you to refill your creative tank. We all have different tanks within us. You know, we have we need physical rest. Our body needs to be able to be rested, sensory rest. You know, our ability for us and not always have all the stimulus around us. We need to have spiritual rest, being able to feel connected to something bigger than ourselves. You know, obviously the work component of it, which is the cognitive side of it, is, how do you rest your brain in a different way? And then, like this piece, where we talk about creative rest, how do you ensure that you're allowing yourself to unplug and see things through a different lens, that you're not working during that time period. Yeah,
Zack Arnold: you it's again. It's just like you're drilling into the center of my soul. It's and I would guess that there are a lot of people that do work similar to what I used to do, that can relate where watching certain types of television is not a break, it's work. And one of the things that my wife and I prioritize as a habit is we pick a show, something that's engaging, that's a conversation starter, and we watch it, and then we'll talk about it, maybe not after every episode, but like, Oh, what do you think is going to happen next? Or what do you think of it, right? And she'll say, Oh, I really like that episode. What did you think? Well, I don't know. Like, two episodes ago, they kind of brought up this idea of an unreliable narrator, and I feel they didn't pull it off or bring that storyline together. I felt this was a little bit out of structure, and I read this one scene, this character just didn't seem motivated to take this action. She's like, I didn't notice any of that, right? Says, I can't turn it off, right? So in some ways, when I'm, you know, when I am in a place where I want to be creative, watching those things energize me. But what I find is that when I'm creatively burned out, I just watched the closest version of television wallpaper where I can't, where it doesn't force me to think, and it's white noise, and it's just something that I enjoy, but I don't have to think about and I could hit the pause button at any given time, and I don't feel a compulsion to want to keep watching or breaking it down. And that's that's usually when I know the difference between I'm creatively burned out versus I'm not. What are the things that I'm drawn to? I stop listening to podcasts. I stop listening to music. I stop watching compelling television, and I watch crap. And I find myself really drawn to social media, which I disdain. I absolutely hate social media. I don't have social media profiles other than LinkedIn. But usually for me, one of the telltale signs that I'm sliding into burnout is I'm seeking out these distractions, and I'm avoiding things that require me to
Laura Nguyen: think, and we were dissociating, right? Like, that's really what happens, like we start Doom scrolling on our phone. And I think, what do you think about? Also, kind of compulsive shopping has really emerged, kind of post pandemic as well, and a lot. That is, we're just associating we're we're focusing our effort and energy into something so mindless. These e commerce platforms make it so easy for us to buy. And so then you start getting these boxes at your front door, having no idea I was talking to a call, you know, to a to a coaching client, and she had mentioned she's like, I just get boxes and listen. I don't even know how they show up at my front door. I don't remember buying them, Laura, right? And so a part of that is, how do we identify more productive ways that don't require us to escape our lives? And so to your point around, what are the signs of burnout? I love that you bring this up because a distraction is really, really important, and we feel like sometimes that's a productive distraction, because it takes time. And the other things that become, you know, how do you find healthier ways for a distraction? Like for me, what I really recognize being a marketer was I had to shut down my devices like I literally didn't go into my office. I shut the door and I locked in. I couldn't go in. And you know, that might mean not watching TV for a good month, and trying to figure out a way to detox yourself, right? And trying to find other ways for us to get maybe more healthy dopamine versus the dopamine that we're getting from some of these other devices that are going to, you know, create so much distraction for us. So, you know, like those are things like working out, getting out in nature, like such simple and honestly free things that we typically don't do.
Zack Arnold: I could easily do a 90 minute conversation just about dopamine dysregulation. And actually, I plan to, I have a guest that I'm reaching out to, or want to talk all about that, especially how it affects those with neuro divergence, those with ADHD, where those are so interlinked with creativity that you don't even realize how dysregulated your dopamine might be because of social media or work or otherwise, but that's probably a conversation for another day, because what, here's what I want to get to instead, I consider myself a collector of really good questions. I really believe that the quality of the questions that we ask determines the quality of our life, and that's why I love your book, because it's all kinds of questions and prompts that make me think, right? So there's one page that I wanted to go through, and I'm just going to read these, and I want, I want, I want you to choose the one that you're drawn to, that we want to dig into, because we can't dig into all of them, but I think this is a really great place for people to start. So for anybody that has the book, I'm on page 27 and it's the burnout questionnaire, right? So I'm going to read these out loud, and then I want you to just pick whichever one you gravitate towards, and I want to go into it more deeply. So here's a burnout questionnaire for anybody that's listening. Have you become cynical or critical at work? Do you drag yourself to work and have trouble getting started? Have you become irritable or impatient with others, your family, spouse, coworkers, customers or clients? I feel triggered right now. Do you lack the energy to be consistently productive? Is it difficult to concentrate? Do you lack satisfaction from your achievements? Ooh, this is a big one for creative people. Do you feel disillusioned about your job? Are you using food, drugs or alcohol to feel better or numb yourself? Are you exhausted from not sleeping seven eight hours a night? My audience is like seven eight hours new. Are you experiencing unexplained headaches, stomach or bowel problems or other physical complaints. Which one of those do you think resonates the most with you and or with this audience today?
Laura Nguyen: Hmm, okay, so I'm thinking from this audience perspective, I think there'd probably be two, either the irritability one, so how have you become irritable, impatient with others, or the one that is the lack of satisfaction with your achievements.
Zack Arnold: That's the one that bounces, Pops, screams off the page to me, because this is what I find is so different about those that identify as creatives, and this is something I talk about a lot, where there's a difference between I'm a creative person versus I am a creative I believe that all humans are capable of creativity. It's literally a survival mechanism. It's the reason that we as humans have evolved past animals, is our ability to be creative and combine things into new things, right? But it's different to be creative versus being a creative and what I find is one of the core tenets of people that feel burned out in creative fields is they lack meaning in their work, like for me personally, I don't feel productive if I haven't created something that didn't exist when I woke up. And going back to this idea of caregiver burnout, there were months that I was in massive survival mode. It was literally life and death emergencies coming at me one after another, having to deal with, you know, instances of my parents dealing with their dementia, or literally safety issues, or at one point, I even had to involuntarily move out of my house and relocate, because all these things happening at the same time. And I was literally saving my parents lives. I was literally making sure that I was taking care of my family and my kids, and I felt ridiculously unproductive and worthless because I didn't have the ability to create. That is so ingrained in the core of my being, in my identity, that if I'm not making something, I'm asking myself the question, then what the hell am I even doing here? So I think if anybody listening is similar to that for me, the one that screams off this page, the burnout is probably coming from lack of satisfaction from your achievements in your work. Right?
Laura Nguyen: Yeah, I think there's just, you know, there's a point too, where you feel like the accolades you're getting or when you are creating something, even if you are creating something new every day, I often question, do you feel like it's good enough, right? When you're creating something? I feel like it's, it's never a finished product, right? Even when it goes, even when it gets, you know, pushed out, and maybe, you know, audiences are consuming it, there's probably things that you can think of, a million things that you can think of that's like, Oh, I wish I could tweak that. Oh, that needs to be adjusted a little bit. Like, it's never a fully finished product, even if it's in print. And I think that self talk that we have that it's not enough, or it's not good enough, right, can really get in the way of us being able to feel satisfied in our life. And I had felt that too, where I was like, when is enough enough of, you know, I can have, let's see. You can have the accolades. You can be award winning and yada yada yada, but it's actually, is that enough? You can, you know, make a check, and it still feels good. But is that enough? And I think trying to get rooted and grounded in what are the areas that are most meaningful to you? And so I talk about core values a lot, which I didn't really I think I would talk about core values before so often, but I never really rooted it in my life. And so when I went through the exercise of going through what are the three core values for me, and how am I living them daily, I think that was really key, where, if you're starting to over index in one, then you start to recognize, am I? Am I doing creativity? Is creativity that core value? Is that muscle getting flexed more than the other ones? And how do I right size it? So that way the three, let's say, are a little bit more balanced, because I think that's probably one of the biggest challenges of, how can creatives feel like you're still creating, but give yourself the opportunity to celebrate that that creation more often than you do criticize it. Yeah,
Zack Arnold: what? What immediately came to mind when you were talking about this idea of the limiting belief of, is it good enough? This is something that I hear from my students all the time, and it brings up the quote, and this was popularized by George Lucas, but he's not the one that originally said it, the work is never finished. It's only abandoned, right? You're never actually done. And the kind of person that would often think that way is a perfectionist. And the reason I bring this up is number one, I consider myself a recovering perfectionist. It's a constant challenge being again, a member of overachievers anonymous you being in my overachievers Anonymous meeting, something tells me you might be able to relate. But the reason that I bring this up is that there was, of all the things that I was going through in your book, I hit a page, and it's literally one of those where you just hear the record scratch and everything stops. And it was this portion. Here are the personality types that are most prone to burnout. And I read it and my face just dropped. Introverts. Check, perfectionists. Check, Type A personalities, fuck, check, highly sensitive. Oh, my God, I'm screwed. Check people pleaser. Oh, I'm good with that one, right? I don't consider myself a people pleaser, not that I'm a jerk, but to me, I'm really good at setting boundaries and not always saying yes to everything. But the first four, these are core identifying values and traits of me. And as soon as I read that, I'm like, wow, so much of my life makes so much more sense right now.
Laura Nguyen: Well, you know, obviously I think in the book too I share, I'm like, Oh crap, like, I feel called out right now, like everything about the research was pointing to me that, am I the problem, right? Did you put a problem into an environment that would only lead it to burnout? And ultimately, the answer is yes, and I think that becomes the key of, how do you recognize, how can we be more self aware of what are the, you know, behaviors that we have, the internal dialog that we have with ourselves that's going to lead us to burnout, which means we have to work extra hard to ensure that we don't get ourselves into that situation. And going back to your question of, like, the different types of burnout, Zack, that you were talking you had talked about earlier, right? The overwork, the neglect, the under challenge, and then also where you're burnt out, work, family, you know, caregiving, parental, those are all areas where we can say, okay, in what areas Am I feeling more strapped or stressed in a world of in that world of burnout. And so when you start to have the self inquiry, you can start to go, how do I problem solve this more proactively, versus just allowing yourself to hit a wall and then having to reel yourself back from it. And so one of the things that I think is really key as we think about those personality traits, and maybe this is one that could resonate with creatives, as well as the under challenge side of it. When I think about, you know, being in marketing, some creatives, right, are creating banner ads and print pieces that are not really that creative in nature, they feel really cookie cutter. Ish, and I remember. One of the key pieces for me was having my graphic designer, and I was like, Steph, I'm really sorry, but I need you to like version this like 50 different ways. And I know it's not fun, and I know it's not beautiful, but it's definitely needed, and I think that becomes a key piece of, how do you monitor and understand that in yourself, that you're doing work that doesn't feel impactful because you're not being challenged. And then how do you identify other areas of your life where you feel like you can have impact, right, where you feel like you can flex that muscle? Because there's we're not going to always get to work on things you know, that are going to always creatively feel us, but we have to find ways to fuel us so that that way, we don't deplete ourselves to the point where we get
Zack Arnold: burnt out. I love this example, because it says so much about who you are as a leader, the fact that it wasn't just, hey, I need you to make these 50 versions and I need them by tomorrow, it was the acknowledgement of, listen, I know that this is not the reason that you were born. I know that this is not your true purpose, and I appreciate this is not going to be the most amazing task you've ever done, but here's why we need it, and I appreciate that you're doing it for somebody that does creative work that makes all the difference in the world, when it's just recognized that this is not something amazing that you've thrown upon me, but I realize I'm doing this as part of the larger whole that just completely changes the perception of what that task might be. It doesn't necessarily make it that much more fun, but there's still a little bit more meeting, and there's a purpose of this is for the greater good. It's for the team. It's for the goals that we're achieving, rather than, Oh, they always give me the boring, stupid work, like, I'm so tired of this crap, right? And I've been in both places. And one of the things that I found never in a million years that I think we talk about this, but I just, I think the story would be relevant. I have a member of my team. He's both my executive assistant, and he also does student support for my academy. And I remember once I had this giant, like spreadsheet of all this data and information that I needed to sort through, and it was just breaking my brain, right? And I say to him, I'm really sorry. I know this is like a shit task, and it's probably going to take you a couple of days, but I need x, y and z. And he smiled. He's like, don't worry about it. I love this stuff. And all of a sudden it clicked. I'm like, What's boring and mundane and awful for me might not be for somebody else. And that was his happy place, doing all this stuff and spreadsheets and organizing data and CSV files. Are like, Oh, that's that's his version of being creative, whereas for me, that's literally nails on a chalkboard, but the fact that you acknowledge it as a leader, I think says a lot about how you build a team. So now I want to dig into something else that, again, I wouldn't have have necessarily thought we'd go in this direction, but I'm seeing the delineation in your understanding of I am I'm leading a team as a manager or as an executive, these are my creatives, right? So just completely because of mere curiosity, and this is the nut that I'm trying to crack right now. How do you define a creative what's the difference between the work you do and other members of your team versus your creatives that are doing marketing banners or videos or whatever it might be,
Laura Nguyen: yeah, hmm, what defines a credit? That's a really great question. Like, what defines a creative typically, I think about it is, what is produced, what's the end product? Right? Like, but also, at the same time, it becomes like, what are the inputs at the beginning, as well as what's the end product? The strategy has to also be creative. You can't just have you know, what you know, what are the banner ads, or what's the video pieces? It's like, start to finish. So I think creativity, especially from a marketing angle, is everyone on the team ultimately has a creative muscle. And you know, you were saying, everyone is creative. And so it comes down to when I think about my brand team is highly creative, right? Like they're the ones that own and define how we communicate the brand and the business, and how does that story get woven through everything we're doing. The web team is highly creative because we're looking at ui UX, and how do we how are we converting people through that journey, you know? And they're typically as a UI UX and also a designer. I even think about it from the data analytics side, like data analytics has so shifted to being a creative Avenue as well, because they have to be able to draw insights, but they're creating visualization now, like before, it wasn't just, you know, before, we might have said, Okay, well, it's through an Excel sheet and you're looking at databases and you're running queries, but now it's, how do you how does the data tell the story, and what Does that look like? So I think the answer for me is, like the entire team is creative. It's a full creative shop,
Zack Arnold: all right, so I'm gonna ask this another way, okay, which is, it's very clear to me that you're creative, you're even highly creative. But I'm curious, do you define yourself as a creative and why not?
Laura Nguyen: Okay, so I would say that I did not think I was capital C creative for pretty much the duration of my career, up until my career break, to be totally honest with you, and that shifted for me because. What I recognize was, like the problem solving side is a creative piece, but also everything that I did as a marketer was creative in nature, right? But I don't think I had always thought about it like I said before, as a produced good that I wasn't able to design a book, and that's why it wasn't a creative, but it sounds
Zack Arnold: like now you're feeling like maybe I am a creative since the career break now you're an author. Has there been a shift in your identity or just an improvement in creative skills? Because to me, there's a difference between the two. I do
Laura Nguyen: think that, you know, being an entrepreneur kind of shifting that model for me and being like creating content so much more differently has added a shift in that identity for me, Zack versus just flexing. I feel like flexing the muscle. I think it was probably more of I allowed myself to adopt, say, a label more than anything else.
Zack Arnold: I love this. We're going to keep digging even deeper into this. Here's the reason that I'm bringing it up. It's going to kind of set the table for what I brought up as the elephant in the room earlier in the conversation, where it's one thing to have an intentional career break, it's another where you didn't choose the break, and the break chose you, right? So obviously, the majority of your book is the literal step by step strategy, tactics for what you can do for your career break, how long you can make it. How do you organize your finances? What are the activities that you do, right? So if anybody's like, oh, what does this look like? Buy the book. That's the whole point, right? But what I'm really interested in is, in your world, the angle is largely, again, this is an intentional, purposeful career break, and I want to reconnect with who I am, self care, etc, but what I want to better understand again, if we're coming from the angle of the break chose me, is it possible that we can experience and even accelerate burnout when we're not employed and it's not the work that's driving the burnout, especially when it's about lack of purpose or meaning in our creative work. So it's less what are the strategies and tactics when I intentionally and purposely create this? And it's really understanding, how the hell can I be burned out if I'm not even working? Where is this coming from? Yes,
Laura Nguyen: that's such a good question. So I think that's the key, right? When we ask ourselves what we might realize when we're in that state of burnout, we call it, you know, you start to spin out in a lot of ways, right? Because you are facing a crisis of competence. You're feeling lost, you know, you're in the middle of the ocean and you've got you're trying to battle your own sea monsters and whatever else is out there. But so often, I think it's about trying to figure out the question that you're asking of like, how did I, how can I be burnt out but not be working? And I think what it comes down to is for so many of us, and I, actually, I had a client that we had talked to about this piece of, how do you get? How do you get from feeling that you made a mistake or something had happened, right? An event had happened that has crushed you and really has crushed your ego in a lot of ways. How do you get beyond that piece to starting to feel like, what are the areas of my life that I should be focusing more effort and energy on and then doubling down on those pieces? And so so often we talk about purpose as a destination. We have to go find our purpose. And I felt like that too. Like, trust me, I was I was like, I'm taking a career break. I'm gonna go find my purpose. And the truth is, is that you don't find your purpose, right? Like when I think about it, it is when I think about what is the definition of purpose? It really comes down to curiosity, plus practice equals purpose. So that means that in order for us to get to a point where, when you're feeling burnt out, when you're not working, you have to start getting curious about what are the things that you're interested in. And so typically, where we go there is, I have them go down a list of, okay, well, what are some fun things you've wanted to do that you just have been putting on the back burner. Is to shake out those cobwebs so you start to write down. Here's five things that I want to do, and I'm going to schedule those over the next few days so that I can get out of my house, put myself into an environment where I can find some joy and allow myself to experience something new. So I think that really becomes that key component of that.
Zack Arnold: So clearly, I'm very much on board with this idea of especially if the break is involuntary and it's about, and I like this idea of not finding your purpose. I think for me, it would be reconnecting with the purpose that's already there that you didn't even know, and the idea of exploring what are the things that I really wish that when I had a break I wasn't doing I now could be doing. All of that is great. However, I know, both from myself and from many of the students that I have in my community, in my industry, what immediately hits is the immense amounts of guilt, right? The only thing that I can be doing in my waking hours and most of my sleeping hours is finding another job. I've had multiple conversations with students that say I just feel unproductive and I feel guilt or shame about the fact that I shouldn't be going to network. Events and having fun. I need to be finding work right now. I'm not being productive, and until I'm being productive, ie working again. I'm not going to spend time figuring out the play that I want to be doing, that I miss, right? It's always about I'm going to do X, Y and Z. When the next hiatus comes, the hiatus comes, whether forced or otherwise. Well, I don't have time for all these things, because I got to find the next gig. How the hell do we get out of this trap?
Laura Nguyen: Yeah, yeah, we have to give ourselves permission to it's really the key, right? Guilt for me play felt frivolous. To be honest with you. I felt like it was a waste of time, trust me, but I what I realized was, is that in order for me to get creative, to connect with other people, to connect me to the next gig, right? Was all about being able to ensure that I allowed myself to have be in the moment and give me permission to play. So so a few ways to think about that would be when you are creating your list and you say, okay, here are the things I'm going to do this week. So I'm a big proponent of time blocking, like I like to theme my days, and I like to make sure that I block my specific time on what I'm doing. So let's say, for example, you want to make sure that you're being productive by looking for jobs. And for a lot of people that are in the non creative space, probably they're looking on LinkedIn. So then what they end up doing is they spend all day on LinkedIn every day, and it spins them out of control, because they're not getting responses back immediately, and they start having this negative self talk. So what I say is pick one day and give yourself two hours to be really focused on. What are the types of roles you're looking for, getting everything prepped and prepared for that specific role and applying for those jobs. So you have a very specific amount of time on a very specific day to be able to do that work. Because what typically happens, kind of what we were talking about, is we find ourselves getting distracted using these tools and technologies instead of being productive and actually using the time. We think activity equals productivity versus impact equals productivity. And that really is a shift in how we should think through things. Is, how am I spending my time in a way that's going to drive to the results that I want? And just scrolling through a job board list is actually not productive. I
Zack Arnold: think many of my listeners feel seen right now, and it isn't just non creative very much. The creative space has also moved to LinkedIn, and now it's just become LinkedIn Doom scrolling right looking at all the jobs that are out there, the 783 people that have already applied, I'm getting ghosting. I'm not getting opportunities. But again, it's very similar to what you said. It's this idea of, if I'm not scrolling this all day, every day and applying for everything, I'm not being productive enough, as opposed to I'm being intentional. I'm going to focus on the jobs or the people or the organizations that are really connected with the work that I want to do, and I'm going to spend whether it's two hours a day or four hours a day, two days a week, whatever it is you've done what you can that's within your control, you put it out into the world, and now give yourself some space to breathe, because, frankly, that space to breathe is what's going to change your life more than any individual job listing or job application or even getting that job. Otherwise, you're just going to be back in the same hamster wheel. For me, all of the biggest revelations in my life, short of that one FaceTime moment, have all come from space. When I forced space upon myself, where I had to be bored, right, where I had to just stare at a wall, or I had to go on a walk, but I couldn't have a podcast on my earbuds, right? All of a sudden, when I give myself that space, that's where I start to reconnect with why I did what I did. What does the vision for the future look like? And I just don't think we give our like you said, we don't give ourselves permission to give ourselves that space, especially when the voice is you need income now, and more importantly, who are you without your job title? I bet you've talked about that before.
Laura Nguyen: Yeah, indeed, indeed, right? Because so much of our identity is tied to work, and I think that becomes the key of what are the other pieces of your identity that that builds you up and also align to that purpose that you're so desiring, right? When, when purpose becomes a destination, we start to think that we'll never have it. It's never attainable to us. And then also, by the way, once you get there, you're going to be happy, and it's going to be wonderful. But, you know, at the end of the day, humans love this hedonic treadmill, right? Like we're going to once we get there something else we're going to want something else. We're going to want to add something else. We're going to want to be something want to be something else. And so it's recognizing that we're always in perpetual motion, that we're always learning, we're always growing. And that really is the beauty of being, you know, who we are. And so I think the other piece that you're talking about here is when we when we break up, kind of that sense of allowing ourselves to have the power in the pause. I think that is often pause is the scariest part for most people. And I, you know, I think Zack, as you're talking about like there's so much beauty and so much benefit, I feel that way too, but I don't think I felt that way five years ago. I think for me personally, the pause. Pause and the quiet was panic inducing for me, because the voice that would that I was first hearing was all of the inner critic work, right? I used to say that I have a panel of inner critics that would always give me crap every day, you know, and like, I couldn't catch a break, and so I didn't want to pause, because I would hear them. And through my own personal journey, what I realized was, if I allow them to come up and then allow them to drift away, then that there's that beauty of what are the ideas that are percolating right below the surface that you've just ignored? And I think that's kind of what you're talking about. There is there something beautiful and inspiring about that side is allowing yourself to have permission to pause, and it's going to be rough in the beginning. Things often are, but once you get through it, it's going to be such a different, transformative experience, where you're going to crave that quiet
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I love this idea of the panel of inner critics. I may end up blatantly stealing that concept from you, because we talk so much about the inner critic and limiting beliefs, but this idea that it's not just a voice, but it's literally an entire panel, right? Like I can, I can just picture right now, like one of these government inquiries where there's this panel of 15 people with microphones, and you're sitting there at the table, and the cameras are on you, and all of them are just sharing all of your inconsistencies, all of your darkest fears, all of your insecurities, right? That's very much how it feels for me. It's the old guys in the balcony at the Muppets, right? That's, oh, you stupid idiot. Oh, like, that's, that's my inner critic. Is the stupid old guys on the Muppets. But that's another story for
Laura Nguyen: another day. You know, one, one visualization we talk about critics that I have found really helpful for me is this concept of, like a judgment backpack. And so like, for me, I feel like, because I have these inner critics, there's a lot of inner judgment, you know, and as probably creators, a lot of judgment that you've carried with you from other people that you put into this backpack that you carry on your back all day. And then there's your own inner kind of voice that is echoing those types of sentiments. And so periodically, I always get that backpack out, and I take out each of those pieces of judgment. I kind of line them out in my mind, right? Of, okay, what's helpful to me and what's not like, what do I put back in the backpack and what do I let go of? And I feel that visualization personally has been so helpful, because you can feel the weight on your body almost get lifted once you say, I'm going to let that I'm going to let that go, because it doesn't really matter.
Zack Arnold: It's funny. You bring that up because we had this conversation at our retreat where, as a metaphorical representation of all of us climbing a mountain, I literally had us climb a small mountain, and for the metaphorical representation of I'm carrying the load with you, with your goals and your dreams and your fears. I literally put on a 40 pound backpack and climb this mountain with them, right? But one of the lessons that I've learned is maybe I don't always have to carry the backpack. Maybe I can hand it to somebody else, and it was a struggle for me to give it to somebody else on the way up, but at least at the top I was willing to hand off the backpack to somebody and say, Hey, would you carry this down for me? So this idea of the backpack is very apropos, given everything that the like I said you you must have been following us for this retreat experience that we did this weekend. So
Laura Nguyen: that's so funny. And I think the other pieces is that it doesn't mean that one person has the carry the 40 pound backpack, right? Like, can we open the backpack up and spread out the weight to the rest of everyone else, and then it becomes extremely light, almost at the point where we don't even feel
Zack Arnold: it. Yeah, that's the idea. All right. So there's another area that I really, really want to get into that is, again, another concept that I've kind of sort of explored. But I want to explore this a lot further. We've talked a lot about how we can get a clear sense of our purpose and not find it, but reconnect with it. And, you know, not necessarily set very clear quarterly goals, but kind of bigger picture goals of who do we want to become, what kind of work do we want to do? What's meaningful to us? But there was a term that popped off the page for me, and like I got to talk about this, what the hell is an anti goal?
Laura Nguyen: Yes, anti goals. Okay, so what I rec when I think about anti goals, I think about it like, like, what do you want to go? You know, we always, like, every night, what do you guys want to eat for dinner? And the the first response is, well, I don't want this. I don't want to go here. I don't want this. Sometimes it's easier for us to come up with the things we don't want than the things we want. You know, I was just talking to someone about we had dinner the other night, and we were talking about, where do you want to what kind of job are you looking for next? Like, where, what are your career goals, and what do you want to do next? And it was very much like, well, I want to get into marketing. And I was like, well, like, what part of marketing? Like, tell me a little bit more about that. And then you start to go down this path, and then people get insecure in that moment because they can't answer all the questions. But the question they can answer is what I don't want. I don't want to have to be in the office at 8am every day. I don't want to always have to be traveling. I don't. Want these things. And so the concept of anti goals is, what are the things? Write down, the things that you clearly do not want in your next role or in your life. Once you articulate that, that becomes very clear boundaries for you, that if something comes up that would encroach on those goals, those anti goals, you have to say, No,
Zack Arnold: I love this. It's like I said, I'm a collector of questions. I'm going to be adding this to my repertoire, because I do find as well the way. And I ask a lot of really deep questions in our various course materials about, you know, what What work are you really drawn to? What impact you want your work to have on the world? What are your core values that you're not willing to compromise? And you're right. The most often the response is, well, I don't really know, but here's what I don't want, and I think it's as simple as changing the question, What? What aren't your values, right? What kind of projects do you not want to work on? What are the people that you don't want to work with? Then it's just like, here's all this stuff, right? And I never really thought about it from that approach before, but I can see how this would be tremendously useful, because everybody loves to complain about the things that they don't want. Indeed, the other
Laura Nguyen: thing right is like blank pieces of paper are really scary. So when you have people write down, well, what do you want? There's so much pressure they feel like, I have to get this right. But if it's an anti goal, or if it's the opposite, they're almost crossing it off. And our bodies and our minds are conditioned to be able to enjoy the marking of something out, right? And so this is kind of that act, that activity in our mind of crossing something out in our in our brains,
Zack Arnold: yeah. And the the other, the extension of it that I can see is an exercise. Would be if you start to ask, what don't you want for XYZ, for your values, for your jobs, for your people, for dinner tonight, whatever it is. And PS, you may have solved the number one point of friction in my household, which is, what are we going to eat tonight? I'm going to try this. What Doesn't everybody want tonight? What don't you want to eat? And I'm going to see where that goes. I'm an experiment. Yeah, but yes, I think where this can also make it easier for somebody to discover the the other side of it is now asking, What's the inverse of this, right? I know I don't want to work on mindless reality television. Great. What's the inverse of mindless reality television, right? I think that can help people come into that exploration without feeling like, and, oh, this is so such a good intuitive thing that you mentioned is they feel like I need to come up with the right answer. And this is a really easy way to ease into an answer without feeling like you have to get it right, because you're giving them permission to get it wrong from the outset. So yeah, it's the
Laura Nguyen: warm up right? Like, really at the end of the day, it's the warm up before the actual workout. And so getting them thinking about it in a different way just helps. That's a faster, quicker muscle for them to go with than feeling like I have to do this exactly perfectly, correctly and I won't be able to go back to it. That's one of the things I always talk about with all my clients, too, is this is always in pencil, like we this. None of this is in ink. We can always go back and change it, and you should be going back to change it, because you're not going to be the same person a year from now than we are in this very moment. And so give yourself permission to allow yourself to grow.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I love that. You and I, again, we're we're working from the same playbook right now. I know I must be on the right track when I connect with like minded people where we have no understanding of each other's processes or views or values, and it's just, you know, short of literally looking in a mirror, I feel like I'm proverbially, emotionally looking into a mirror and that you have a much nicer, fuller head of hair. But other than that, I proverbially feel like I'm really looking into a mirror that sees the world in a similar way and is helping people with similar challenges, which I very much appreciate. So yeah, one other quick area that I wanted to go into before we wrap up, because I want to be conscious of your time. Like I said, I didn't want to get too much into the weed with the tactics, because your book is so tactical and strategic. But the one thing that I think would at least be a good conversation to start knowing that you have a lot of great resources to go deeper in the book, is the concept of a career matrix. I found this really insightful and helpful. So kind of give us the, you know, the five minute version of what a career matrix is, and how we can get one started to gain some of this clarity.
Laura Nguyen: Yeah. So a career matrix is an exploration of what are all of the things, the work, things you wanted to do. And so I often find that people have things in their mind, but they need to get it out of their mind and into a piece of paper. And so the matrix says, Here's, you know, let's say, as you go through your week, your day, start jotting down what that would look like, and then you want to take a look at what are the columns next to it that you want to evaluate it, essentially by which is, does it align with your inherent strengths, does it align with your core values? What's the revenue generation potential for it, and then what's the startup cost for it, right? And so some of those for me, for example, were things like, I could go back and get a corporate job in marketing, sure. I could do consulting, I could own a farm. I could, you know, go buy a, you know, smoothie shop and run a smoothie shop. And then as you start to brainstorm all of those ideas of what ifs, then you start to score them on a scale of one to five, and then you rank it based on what that looks like. And then you prioritize and focus on the top three right, and you let go of and eliminate the other 27 Yeah, and the key to that is where we focus our effort in our energy is typically where we're going to see progress, right? And so focus on those top two to three. And then I always tend to go, what are the questions you have to be able to make a decision? And who could help you answer those questions? So I would typically schedule one on one meetings with people and get to know them, and I would ask them a series of questions that would help me understand, is this something I actually want to do or not? And then I would check in with my body of, what is my mind telling me? What is my gut telling me? And then I'd go from there.
Zack Arnold: I love that this is something again, where I feel like, How in the world did you get the interplay book of our retreat, where we talked a lot about not just putting the goals on paper and saying, Well, yeah, this makes sense for X, Y and Z reason, but checking in with your intuition and really understanding this. I'm going to basically take this right from my Podcast Producer Debbie, who introduced this concept to me and my students of intuitively understanding what a yes, what a no and an I don't know, feel like in your body, so that once you understand the feeling like whether it's in the chest or the gut or in your shoulders or in your face, and you don't understand where those feelings or sensations are coming from, you ask yourself the question, should I build a smoothie shop? Oh, I just felt a pit in my stomach. I think that's a no. Like it logically, yeah, the numbers make sense on the spreadsheet, but this isn't the right fit. Versus should I write a book? Ooh, ooh, I felt that, right? It's scary, but it's not anxiety. Like, maybe that's the direction, and really understanding intuitively what you're drawn to, and just kind of getting the logic out of the way sometimes. So yeah, we're very much on board with that idea as well. Yeah,
Laura Nguyen: yeah. I think so often we we don't trust our body, right? Like, we let our mind take over. And that's something I had to really learn, is to check in with my body on what is my body telling me right now? And to your point, around you know, is it a yes? Is it a no, or is it an I don't know? Like, in a lot of ways, it creates a very binary kind of decision, right? Because if it's a yes, then you're like, I'm for sure gonna go if it's a no, you know what the answer is? If it's an I don't know, then it gives you an opportunity to be curious about it. What can it tell you? Yeah,
Zack Arnold: and what you said about this idea? Well, now that I have a bunch of questions, the next step is I need to go ask people that are doing these things to see if it's an alignment or not. And oh, boy, is that a sticky situation for introverts. The idea of, like, reaching out and talking to strangers and asking questions like, that's really, really hard. But what I've discovered in having somehow was certainly not intentional whatsoever, but have led myself to being at the epicenter of helping introverts learn how to build relationships with others and actually have that lead to their their career paths. What I've found, and this is something I probably intend to write a lot more about I think introverts are better than networking at extroverts. They just don't know it. And I think a key component of this discovery and this exploration is being willing to be curious and reach out to others. Where you say, I don't know, the smoothie shop isn't I don't know. So I'm gonna go talk to five people that have smoothie shops, even if I've never met them and they don't know who I am, to find out why they chose it. What are the great things about what are the horrible things about it? To see if it's an alignment. And another big question for me is, I'm always going to have problems in my life. Is this going to create problems in my life that I want to solve, that I'm excited to solve, versus god, I can't imagine running a smoothie shop, right? I think that exploration is so key.
Laura Nguyen: Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love the conversation around introversion and just the networking and putting yourself out there. From an introverts perspective, I think the key when we do that as introverts. I'm an introvert too, so the key to do that as introverts is cushioning time for recovery like that has been really important for me in my career, and even, you know, from an entrepreneurship perspective, is to think about as I'm having these interactions, it's going to take a lot from me, and so I can't go back to back to back to back all the time, and so I'm going to get zapped. So I'm going to give myself, let's say I'm going to go to a networking event, and then I'm going to give myself a treat for me, which is, what am I going to do that's fun and recharging for me as an introvert, so I always that when I talk about time blocking, that's a part of it, is time for the action, the activity or the action, and then time for recovery. Yeah,
Zack Arnold: I love that. I think that's a great addition. I'm about 17% through my prep sheet, so hopefully you can block out the rest of your day because I got about six more hours of questions. However, I'll probably just narrow it down to one or two, because I want to be respectful of your time. Respectful of your time. This is where we potentially get to the shameless self promotion portion of the program, which is recognizing that you and I are both making a living, or at least a portion of our living through being coaches. And one of the things you talk about is the benefit of getting a coach, or even getting a burnout coach. And from my perspective, the reason that I always share that this is so necessary, I boil it down to one concept or idea, it's impossible to read the label from inside the jar. I'd love to know your thoughts on that and why you think that it's essential for somebody to have a coach that can walk them through this process.
Laura Nguyen: Yeah, so I talk about a. A lot of ways, is like, who's your team as you're experiencing burnout? And what I've recognized is that most people feel really alone in their burnout journey, and I did too, right? And so I couldn't talk to co workers about it. I would talk to my therapist about it, but it wasn't really about, how do I solve for this in the future? And you can talk to your friends, but they're always going to, you know, say, well, that kind of sucks, but welcome, welcome to the world of working right, Laura, and so suck
Zack Arnold: it up. Pull up your boot straps. It's like I could go on and on, right? Sorry, continue.
Laura Nguyen: Yeah. So having a coach allows you to create a plan that helps you navigate your way through burnout. And I think that is the key, like I I've always focused on, and you know, everything about, even in the book, and even in the group coaching engagements, has always been, how do we create, create a roadmap for people to help them navigate through this because they feel stuck and they don't know the way through it unless we give some tools and also accountability to actually changing what they're doing. That really is the shift is you can have a friend, but having an accountability partner. You're meeting with every week or every other week is a very different scenario, because now you have to get on the phone or a zoom call and say, I actually didn't do what I said I was going to do, and that shifts everything.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I couldn't agree more, and I've noticed huge life transformation, simply because I told somebody, by the end of the day today, send me a screenshot and slack of this thing, just that alone changes it from, well, I know I should do this, but I don't really feel like it, to Well, I'm gonna look like an ass if I don't do this thing and somebody's expecting it of me. That's what really builds that momentum. So yeah, again, it's, you know, a little bit of shameless self promotion, at least for me, but this idea that there's so much value in having that outside perspective and having that accountability, yeah,
Laura Nguyen: for sure, for sure about all the coaches we've had in our lives, right? And mentors who have made such a significant impact, that's why I wanted to do coaching was, you know, I've been, you know, really privileged to have wonderful mentors in my life, and I wanted to be able to give back in a different way, too. I
Zack Arnold: love that. So is there any question that I have not asked, or anything that you would like to talk about and share that we have not talked about
Laura Nguyen: yet? One thing actually, Zack I wanted to chat about was when we talk about burnout, and we talk about it as so often feeling like a solo sport, and you've talked about your academy and your community, I would love to get your thoughts and feedback on how does the power of group and community shift in this world of burnout?
Zack Arnold: I think the biggest realization that I've seen is it's, it's, it seems almost too simple to be effective, but it's the realization of, oh, I'm not alone. It isn't just me, and understanding that both other people are going through it, and also that there's so many external factors that have created this outside of my control, and I don't see the system that is designed to lead me to this place. It's always about this was my fault. I'm broken. There must be something wrong with me, because when I look at all the other people that I work with, the other people that I admire, whether it's peers, whether it's mentors, they all seem to have it figured out what's wrong with me. And then you pull back the curtain, and people realize we're all a gigantic show, right? Like one of the exercises I took my students through at this retreat, as I had them write on individual post it notes, all of the limiting beliefs, all of the voices, all of the fears. Just get it all out, and everybody randomly put it on a big, giant wall, and when we started to walk around the wall, we're like, it's all the same things. We're all saying the same things in our own heads that alone, without any strategies or further workshopping. Just that realization changed everybody's perspective, like it isn't just me. I'm not the one that's broken. It's the system that's broken. That's where I think the power of group and community is literally life changing. Yeah,
Laura Nguyen: I 100% agree. I was kind of curious what your thoughts were there too. I feel like there's only so far we can get with one on one, right? Because then you only have one person you're connecting with. But ultimately, in this journey of life that we're navigating through, what you know, whatever your career journeys are, what your limiting beliefs are, seeing the sheer number of like, what is the common humanity that we're all facing sets things in perspective for us and also allows us to mobilize to something different, in a different way, versus feeling stuck In this in this group environment too, right? Everyone's moving in their own direction, but, you know, they're all on their own ships, but they're, you know, going with going with the wind,
Zack Arnold: yeah, and when it comes to this idea of one on one, one of my biggest limiting beliefs or fears was, there's no way that I could help somebody if it's not at a one on one call. How in the world could I help five people at once, or 20 people at once, or 150 people at once. And now, when people reach out and say, I really want to work with you one on one, I say, I don't think I can help you one on one nearly as much as if you're in a group setting. Every once in a while, there are personal reasons or very difficult things that they don't want to share in a group setting, which I recognize and respect of by and large, I just. Swayed people from one on one, because I can't bring them nearly the value that the group can bring them with or without me. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. I love it. So having said that, I want to make sure that everybody listening today can further interact with your work. They can find your book, they can connect with you. What's the the one or the best place they want me to send people today? So they can say, I want to do more of this,
Laura Nguyen: yeah, so you can find me on Laura nguyen.co my website. So you spell that for us, yeah, l, a, u, r, a N, G, u, y, e, n.co, or you can also find me on LinkedIn. I'm Laura Nguyen on LinkedIn as well. Just shoot me a message and happy to connect.
Zack Arnold: I love it. Remind everybody the name of your book one more time and where we can find it, because I really think this is a great exercise for people to really clarify all these things that are important to
Laura Nguyen: them. Yeah, appreciate that. It's career break compass. It's available anywhere books are sold, but you'll probably get it on Amazon. It's on Amazon Kindle and audible.
Zack Arnold: I love it. I cannot stress enough how much value I personally got out of today's conversation, and I hope that everybody listening did as well, and I hope that this was worth 90 minutes of your very valuable time. So thank you so much for being with us today.
Laura Nguyen: Thank you. Zack loved it. Great conversation. Appreciate it.
This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared by Debby Germino and published by Glen McNiel.
The original music in the opening and closing of the show is courtesy of Joe Trapanese (who is quite possibly one of the most talented composers on the face of the planet).
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