Today’s guest is award-winning film editor, Sarah Broshar who’s short list of credits includes The Fabelmans, West Side Story, Ready Player One, and The Post. All of which were projects that had her working with Hollywood legends Steven Spielberg and editor, Michael Kahn. Looking at her credits in her IMDb profile, you might think, “She must have gotten really lucky,” but as Sarah shares in our conversation, her ‘luck’ mostly comes from consistently solving problems and providing value over and over.
As we go deeper into her story, Sarah shares that not only is she ‘lucky’ to be working with legends, she’s also working with people who value family and boundaries which is not very common to high demand projects (or the industry, in general). Getting your foot in high-profile projects and working with people who will respect your boundaries is already challenging enough but as we find out in Sarah’s story, she paved her own way to get to where she is now. Sarah’s inspiring story reveals that creating your own ‘luck’ is the key to working with the best and setting boundaries is the key to having a life outside of work.
Sarah Broshar recently finished co-editing The Fabelmans, which marks her ninth collaboration on a Steven Spielberg directed film. Along with Michael Kahn, she also co-edited West Side Story (Critics Choice Award winner for Best Editing), Ready Player One and The Post. She served as Additional Editor on Bridge of Spies and The BFG, after working as First Assistant Editor on War Horse and Lincoln. She began her journey with Spielberg and Kahn in 2009 by operating the Avid on The Adventures of Tintin. In 2019, Sarah edited Paramount’s hit Pet Semetary. She has also edited a number of independent features and was nominated for an ACE Eddie Award for The Post. Sarah is a graduate of the American Film Institute and Northwestern University.
Zack Arnold: I am here today with none other than award winning film editor Sarah Broshar whose shortlist of credits includes The Fabelmans, West Side Story, Ready Player One and The Post, all of which, of course, were edited alongside Oscar winning editor and legend, Michael Kahn. But just as importantly, your frankly, more importantly for the sake of today's conversation, as you stated in your bio, you have a husband, a child and a cat. So dog and a dog. So, on that note, Sarah, it is a tremendous pleasure to have this conversation with you today. Thank you for taking the time and being here.
Sarah Broshar: Yeah, thank you for having me.
Zack Arnold: So without knowing it, you may not realize that you also have a very dubious additional distinction. And that is that you are the very first person that I ever had a mentor mentee conversation with. And you had no idea the thread that you pulled and you planted, because I've now built an entire industry in my livelihood, around mentoring people. So my first question for you is, do you remember anything about that lunch meeting we had, like 20 years ago, and if said, was it even remotely useful?
Sarah Broshar: I remember meeting you. I remember knowing your name, and you're looking familiar. I don't remember too much about it. To be honest.
Zack Arnold: It's fine, because I feel exactly the same way. But what I do remember, I remember nothing about the actual words that were spoken. But the way that it was set up, is that I got an email from one of my former film professors, Robert Reyer, who I as I understand it is kind of like a family friend and was a mentor to you growing up and you were from Michigan. Correct.
Sarah Broshar: He was. My his wife was my cello teacher.
Zack Arnold: Oh, I didn't know that connection. That's amazing. Yeah. All right. So now the pieces come together even more. Yeah.
Sarah Broshar: And then he became a sole mentor, as I became interested in filmmaking. And then he wrote me a letter of recommendation to go to AFI, and also has connected me with other great Michigan alumni. So,
Zack Arnold: Yeah, so So I got an email from him many years ago, this must have been maybe 2003 2004. somewhere in that neighborhood. Saying, you've got a family friends isn't somebody that went to Michigan, but they they're, they're out in LA, they're trying to can just kind of figure out the business. Would you be willing to meet with them? And my first reaction was like, How the hell am I gonna help? Like, my life is a shit show. And I don't know what I'm doing. I just got out here. Like, I may be employee, but I don't know what I'm doing. And I like I said, I remember none of the conversation. But here's what I remember. I remember immediately thinking, Oh, she's gonna make it. She's you. There were things you needed to figure out and logistics and how to things work. But the amount of laser sharp focus and clarity you had in confidence that I'm going to figure this out, I was like, I don't know who she was, but she's gonna be somebody someday. And here we are. 20 years later, working alongside Steven Spielberg.
Sarah Broshar: That's a very lovely thing to hear. Well, thank you for that.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. So that I'm not surprised at all by how you got here. But I want to talk more about how you got here, because I think you have a very interesting path. And then once we talk a little bit more about the path, I want to talk about what it took to walk the path, because there are a lot of sacrifices along the way. And as somebody that has a kid and values, family and value time outside of the edit suite where you're not myopically living in that suite, 24/7. I want people to understand what it really takes to make it at the level that you've made it because most would say, is there any Pinnacle higher as an editor than literally sitting next to Steven Spielberg making a Spielberg movie? So it's really understanding the journey, but understanding the cost of the journey, because this is something most people aren't willing to talk about. So so we may go a little bit deep today. So we're not going to be talking about like, let's talk about how you and Michael have different keyboards and what's your process like? All of that, by the way is wonderful. There are other shows for that we're not going on there today at all. So from the moment that you and I had our lunch together also many, many, many years ago, pieced together from that moment where you're just getting started to you kind of found your way into the Spielberg world and any pieces that are relevant in between. Okay.
Sarah Broshar: Okay. I'm guessing we had that meeting, right around when I moved to LA to go to AFI.
Zack Arnold: I think you were brand new. Yeah. So it was, yeah, you were just kind of landed from what I remember.
Sarah Broshar: Yeah, I had spent the year before in Japan and I had applied to AFI while I was in Japan. And then I got into like, moved home from Japan. And I basically, you know, put everything in a car and drove across country and showed up a week before school started. And it was like, All right, I'm here. What's LA like, okay, so I did, I did AFI for two years. And then I started editing promos. And like, it was like a fox international network thing where I'd go and take How I Met Your Mother and put it in a trailer and they would voiceover it for the Latin American markets or the French markets. And that was fun, and I was so happy to be almost I was not even finished with AFI yet. But I was like, I'm getting paid to edit. This is amazing. I had lunch with one of my AFI mentors, and I told him this is great. I'm getting paid to edit. This is fantastic. And he's like, Yeah, but you're not making movies. So if you want to make movies, you have to go get coffee for people that make movies. And that's how they get to know you. And I was like, Oh, okay. Okay, and then it just happened. Well, I should also say that the summer before that, well, after my first year at AFI, I got an internship at Sky Captain in a world of tomorrow. With Sabrina blisko, it was a great experience, I got to just go in and explore, sit in all the meetings, kind of check out how movies were made, be a part of something, you know. And, you know, she basically sent me connected me with a producer that was looking for an intern for Michael's cutting room. And, yeah, and so I went, and I worked with them. For a few months, I don't even know if I met Michael, I met Michael. But you know, it was like a high, I wasn't really dealing with Michael for that experience. And then I made myself invaluable as somebody who was efficient and organized. And I figured out things to do, that weren't asked of me that were really helpful. So then the people in the cutting room wanted me around the next time, they made another movie. And that was a great, great jumping point. And then I also you know, it's doing other things, I was cutting stuff on the side, I got my union hours, through editing, through the fox jobs, and through documentary work and that kind of thing. So I got myself into the Union as an editor in order to go and join that team on another movie as an assistant. And I kind of straddled both worlds for a little while where I was doing some editing indies doing, you know, Assistant work. And then I got, I actually got hired on Tintin not through my first Steven project through through the producers before Michael was even involved in the project for the test shoot, so I got to go sit on stage, while they were doing all the tests for 10 to the year before they shot. And then when I and then I got hired on to Tintin to actually sit with Michael and Steven, and run the AVID for the editing. And that was like, really the springboard for where I am right now.
Zack Arnold: Hmm. So this is the point where most people are gonna want to know about the process of working with Spielberg and Michael Kahn working on Yeah, I don't care about any of that. Right now, there's so much of what you talked about that I actually want to get into, none of which we could find in our research. You are just behind the scenes between Debbie and I were like, You are impossible to research and prep for because there's nothing about you anywhere. My guess is that's not an accident.
Sarah Broshar: I don't like to do a lot of things like this, if you know what I mean.
Zack Arnold: I do so which is why they're I'm so that's why I'm so grateful.
Sarah Broshar: I was like, I'll do it with you. You're like you're somebody like you say I had lunch with before. And I just felt like, you know what I know Chris Patterson does your course. And has said a lot of great things about your course, that he really likes. So I'm like, Yeah, let's do that.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, so I'm, I'm grateful. And there are so many gaps to fill, because there were so little to find. And what I want you to respond to now is if we look at kind of the you know, from AFI to get this first internship to now you're kind of you're working in the same general space as Michael Kahn, and then Spielberg. Yeah, you kind of sort of answered this, but I want to go deeper into it. And I want to change the framing of the question. Okay. Sure. Sounds like you got lucky. So, how do you respond to the fact that it just sounds like all the pieces came together? And you sure we're lucky to fall into this camp of people?
Sarah Broshar: I think that is 50% of the truth. Maybe more, maybe less. But it definitely. It's so funny. You say that because my husband and I were talking about that last night. They were about like luck versus skill. And I was like, Yeah, well, yeah, I've worked with plenty of people that are lucky, but they don't quite have what it takes to keep going necessarily, sometimes, you know what I mean? So yeah, it was definitely a lot of luck to get these emails saying, hey, here you go, do you want this opportunity, but you have to also be prepared, be proactive and yeah, sort of be receptive to what the needs are around you without being asked for everything to make to capitalize on that for sure.
Zack Arnold: Sure. So I'm going to challenge you I think there's a lot less luck involved than you think there is. You know, I've I've had many students and listeners that have said in quoted me saying Zack doesn't believe in luck. It's not even remotely true that that's the case. However, I think that people ascribe luck so much more as an excuse for why they're not achieving their goals. And I think that people also attribute luck a lot more to their success. Less than they think. luck to me is largely when hard work intersects with opportunity? And what are the things that are completely and totally out of your control that fell in your lap? That was lucky. So I want to dig in a little bit deeper with these first few connections, whether it's the internship, whether it's getting recognized by Michael's team, how much of that literally fell in your lap versus how much of it was because of actions that you took being invaluable? Making sure they knew who you were going above and beyond like, there were choices that you made that led to this result, far more than it just happened? How much do you think was luck, versus in some way, shape or form? I made decisions that led to this outcome?
Sarah Broshar: You know, I will say that I'm this this sort of like a tangent for your question. When I was 25. I told my parents my life's plan, which was that I was going to graduate from AFI, I was going to find a Master Editor to apprentice, I was going to become a film editor on my own by 35, and have children around the same time. And that was like, and you know, at the time, I'm from Michigan, my parents were like, 35, that's late to be having children. It was much later. But anyways, aside from all that, I did have goals. I think, first and foremost, I did have a goal that I wanted to become a film editor. And I also wanted to learn from a great film editor and work in a film cutting room. So I think you're right, I think that there was a thing where I said, Okay, I'm at AFI, I'm going to use connections here, a director that I worked with, worked with an actor whose boyfriend was an assistant editor on a movie, which is how I got my foot in the door of saying, hey, anyone needs some free intern, a cub? Do whatever you need to. And I'll also go in, sit on and learn a lot. So that was the beginning of that.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, now, now we're getting somewhere, because now this is the part where I'm really interested, is that you were very, like I said, I saw this in our conversation, I wish that I could remember the actual conversation. But I remember the impression and the impression was, she's going to figure it out. You didn't know what the pieces were. But it was like, you just need to ask the right questions and meet the right people. But I was like, she's gonna be fine. There are other people I meet with him like, oh, boy, this is gonna be a struggle. I'm sure you've met with people, where you can kind of tell the difference as well. And I knew you're going to figure it out. I just didn't know how clear your goals were. And what's so amazing. In hindsight, it was I'm going to find and work with a Master Editor. You're literally working with the Master Editor. You're like, just working with a Master Editor. Sure, that sounds fine. And all but what if I just worked with the Master Editor of all the master editors, right. So short of maybe no apprenticing with Walter merge, arguably, you couldn't have found a more Master Editor to work with. And I think that the fact that you had that clarity of those goals, it changes the energy that you put out there such that you're not randomly getting emails to see if you're interested in this kind of thing. People already know your intentions, they know the value that you want to provide. And they have some sense of whether it's consciously or subconsciously, I think Sara would be a good fit for this, we should send her an email and thus, in your inbox, you get lucky.
Sarah Broshar: Right? Nicely put, I like that.
Zack Arnold: So having said that, I think we can probably start to put a lot of those pieces together down the line. But I think I think it's very, very clear to me that you've made very conscious or deliberate choices that lead you down this very, very specific path. Now, if you had said, Well, I was sitting at Starbucks one day, and somebody spilled their coffee in my lap, and it happened to be Michael Kahn, and he said, The least I can do is give you a job for ruining your dress. That's right, that's literally falling into your lap. But you're so far from that being the circumstance. So how did you make yourself invaluable at that early stage of your career?
Sarah Broshar: I, you know, I, I, you know, I tried to be on time, a professional, do all the bare minimum things. And then also, I looked around and I said, Okay, what's, what's needed? What do I see in this environment that I could do to kind of go above and beyond I also just tend to be, I don't know, I tend. I'm not an organized person in some areas of my life, but that in other areas I am. So I, I got invited to, you know, they were in their cutting in Michaels cutting room for many, many years. And they had just gotten back from shooting Munich. And they had a whole room of mag and supplies and then shipped back from wherever they'd been on location. And so I was going through with one of the assistants and reorganize everything, reconstituted mag, like doing all these things. But then also, when that job was done, I was like, Okay, let's what's in his closet, let me take everything out of this closet and get rid of stuff you don't need and reorganize and re label and then Oh, you got all these CDs in the back. Just sitting here. That's great. Why don't I digitize all these CDs and make you a music library and alphabetize them and, you know, I think I might have actually don't even know if I digitized them at the time, I think I might have just made a spreadsheet or something like that so that they were searchable in some kind of database. So that was really it. I was trying to learn as much as possible. I was definitely told on the first day of my internship by one of the interns like we don't know what to do with you. We don't we've never had an intern. And we generally don't work with girls either. And I was like, well, we'll figure it out, you know? So, figured it out.
Zack Arnold: And it sounds like not only did you figure it out, but it sounds like the underlying theme of all of these things. You can correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to put language in your head. But it sounds to me like all you kept thinking was what can I do to make your life easier?
Sarah Broshar: Yeah, definitely. It was not enough. It was not like, let me show you how great I am. That was I want to just specify that that was not the attitude I was coming in. I was like, part of it also is like, I want to keep myself busy. I want to keep myself engaged here. And so of course, like any of the side projects, I had work on this, you know, were things that I was doing, when they didn't have something else they needed me to do. You know, I was doing a lot of getting lunches. And just I really can't remember, I think I was doing a lot. Yeah, getting bagels, getting lunches. Driving things to certain places.
Zack Arnold: I would guess Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
Sarah Broshar: I was gonna say and then the end of the show, it was a short, you know, as a small indie movie, which is also a very unusual position for Michael to be in was doing a favor with a friend was a small movie as a fun sweet movie. But one of the the assistant, they are a film crew, they're all filmmaker there, they actually worked on 35 millimeter film with the robiola and you know, and so, the assistant some of the assistants weren't as familiar with the Avid, and their avid assistant left when the film was finished during turnover season for during turnovers and had to go on to something else. And so they needed somebody to help finish some turnovers. And I said, Okay, I can do that. And then they bumped me up from intern, so that I could do the turnovers and help get things done for them.
Zack Arnold: In in now you're in the position where you know, you're, you know, part of the Delete of the Department of a cutting room, you know, working alongside Michael, you have assistant editors under you, you know, there are post pas and their support staff. So I'm guessing you've seen a lot of the same things that I have, where people are so eager to climb the ladder and get where you are, say as a post PA, let's start from kind of the bottom level where you said you were getting people lunches, it's, well, I don't want to get good at getting people lunches, I want to start cutting I want to get on the AVID and they lose sight of you have to be great at your job first, before you can show that you're good at other things. And it sounds like you've very much put yourself in that position where it wasn't just Well, I really want to edit with you. It's I'm going to be amazing. You're getting lunches, so I'm teaching you, I am great at whatever you asked me to do. But at the end of the day beyond that, my guess is you were trying to do anything you could be like, maybe I can get in the room and just look over their shoulder, I can help with this. And that's kind of what led to them wanting to bring you in and say, oh, let's let's move you forwards.
Sarah Broshar: It's funny, I wasn't trying to get in the room and look over any shoulders. Because I had sort of been advised early on by the same AFI mentor who had worked with Michael before he kind of just told me like, sit back. Don't, don't ask to read the scripts, don't ask to you know, just sort of like, don't put don't push yourself into there. So I didn't. I didn't ask to try to go in and do those things on that film because I had sort of been given that heads up. Whereas on the previous film, Sky Captain, I was all over the place. But putting over my shoulders.
Zack Arnold: And there is the paradox, where by not focusing on getting yourself in the room, you earned the right to get in the room. Yep. So now the next thing that I want to dig into given that you are so clear with your goals, and you can be totally brutally honest about this, because I know how I approach situations similar to where I was in my career where the spot we're talking about now was your mindset. Oh my god, this is so cool. I get to work with Michael Kahn in this short oh, what's your mindset? Oh, I'm going to be cutting with Michael Kahn, I'm going to be editing Steven Spielberg movies. Was it either of those somewhere in between what was the mindset?
Sarah Broshar: It was neither of those at all. It was like, this is fun. I've got a job in a feature cutting room. It wasn't even a real job. Let me be clear. I was it was an internship on an indie it was a feature but it was an indie feature very small. And I was working for free and then I was still going to Fox and cutting trailers and promos at night. So I was I just shifted my fox hours. And it wasn't you know, I wasn't it was like this will be cool if there's an opportunity that comes out of this. But it wasn't I didn't have any expectations for the future. And I started Like didn't have. Yeah, yeah.
Zack Arnold: Okay, so given that this is another area that I want to dig into further because IMDb can help answer a lot of my questions once we get to a certain stage of your career. But the next one is if we're looking at around this time where you're doing this internship you're working with Michael on this short, you're working on Fox promos at night. There's a lot of kind of scattershot all over the place. I'm doing a short here, I'm doing this and I'm doing that. So how were you able to to best manage that just kind of surviving and paying the bills and gathering skills and building a network but at the same time, also put yourself in the position where eventually that track really became very focused, moving forwards?
Sarah Broshar: I think it was time I think this was like, you know, I was in my mid 20s didn't have responsibilities that I have. Now. I don't have pets that have child, I might have had a relationship. I don't remember probably. But I you know, it wasn't like, I was hungry to work. And it was also a very short period like this, this this internship slash Fox thing was maybe four months, it wasn't sustained. It was a very short experience. And then I just sort of was like, flexible with whatever came at me for work. I'm trying to remember I think they went on a did another film. That was maybe Indiana Jones. And I went off and I did other things. I'm trying to maybe I get the order wrong. And they did Spiderwick Chronicles, which I joined them for. And then they did Indiana Jones, I can't really remember. But I did. I was trying to, you know, I was, at the same time cutting features with friends, or you know, I did a feature with a friend and just kind of take whatever added editing opportunity I could, like you say on the side. I don't remember if it was so long ago. Also, I just don't really remember. I think it was just day by day.
Zack Arnold: So given that, is that what what what would you say is the moment where you felt like it was the difference between I'm kind of doing this that and the other thing I'm a little bit in the Michael Kahn world helping out here versus this is when I felt like I was in at the ground floor and I was moving forwards is there kind of like a definitive I was the A II on this or what was kind of the this is where the trajectory changed.
Sarah Broshar: It was definitely when I started sort of being Michael's avid hands, which is what the job started as, and very quickly changed evolved from but that was on Tintin in 2008, I think when we shot that movie. So that was it. That was when I was like, Okay, I'm sitting here with Steven Spielberg and Michael Kahn. And I'm learning how to edit movies, the way they edit movies together. And from that point on, I was like, This is great.
Zack Arnold: And given how old slash young you are, or how was it that your head didn't literally explode?
Sarah Broshar: I don't know. I don't know. It was pretty cool. I was like, really excited to meet Steven I remember, but also I'm, I've never been somebody who gets to, for better and for worse, who gets too excited about people or people, everyone's human. And so I just sort of like try to keep that perspective and Steven is very down to earth, wonderful kind person to work with.
Zack Arnold: So that part I get the way you and I are in alignment is I'm like, Yeah, celebrities, people are people, I'm the same way. Here's the reason my head would have exploded, learning a craft that I'm obsessed about by the Masters at their teeth, like I could not be in a better space to learn how to create a film, that's where my head would have exploded. There wasn't at least a little bit of you every once in awhile, you're like Spielberg teaching me how to edit a movie right now.
Sarah Broshar: I mean, maybe yes, of course, there was that. But also, you don't have time to think. Because you're working so hard. And you're every ounce of your energy is focused on the task at hand. And it's still that way today, working with Steven, which is why he's such an amazing person to work for. He gets 110% out of everybody he collaborates with.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. And what we're going to dig into a little bit later is what it takes to give that 100% to Steven, I don't want to, I don't want to go there quite yet. I want to put together a couple, I want to put together a couple more pieces of the journey to really paint the picture, then that's the direction that I very much want to go. But what I want to better understand now is from the point that you have that kind of first I'm the I'm the AVID hands on Tintin. Again, I don't think that there's any luck involved, that you're still working with the same team, what's what now 15 years later? So what I'm curious about and this is often a hard question for people to answer about themselves. So I'm actually not going to ask you. I'm going to ask I'm gonna ask Michael Kahn, the following question. What is it about Sarah, that made you decide that you wanted to keep her around and have her not only be your avid hands, but become your editing partner. Now,
Sarah Broshar: Now, how does Michael answer you?
Zack Arnold: Yeah. So how would he answer that? And if you want to answer this yourself, but most if I asked most people that they're like, I don't know. But if you answer from somebody else's perspective, it's easier for them to step outside themselves and be more objective. Right? So if I were to ask Michael, what is it about because because there are so many people that will kill for that opportunity. And I've talked to other people that are now Oscar winning editors that started in kind of the Michael Kahn School of being the assistant being the set of hands, they go off and do their own thing. So Michael can have anybody at the helm. But you essentially stuck with him for 15 years, and now you're editing partners. So either What do you think? Or what would he say? Are the reasons that you were invaluable? And you were able to stick around and grow with them for so long?
Sarah Broshar: I think he would say, it's funny, I think he would say something, he doesn't think differently than how I would say it.
Zack Arnold: Great, now I want both answers,
Sarah Broshar: He would say that I'm very quick. And then I know the AVID very well, which every time he said that it makes me cringe a little bit, because it's like the AVID is a tool, I think that the reality of the situation is I know how to execute things, and I know how to make to use the evidence, you know what I mean? It's not just the Avid, it's like I understand editing a little bit. So I know just a little bit, I understand editing, and I understand how to sort of shape this tool to do what I need to do quickly and efficiently. So I think a lot of it is work ethic, and work ethic. And I think you thinks I'm pretty smart and sharp and fast. And you know, and I'm sure that I hope there's an element of me element of me also being easy to get along with.
Zack Arnold: Well, I'm it sounds like you would argue and I would definitely argue that if the result is you're really fast, the only way for you to be fast is to understand how to make the right choices. And you don't know how to understand and make the right choices unless you understand story. And you're a great editor. Right? So on the surface, it's like, oh, you know, really fast, but the only way to be fast, especially what he would define as fast and an effective editor, the amount of education and understanding of story and nuance and close ups and emotion like your you can only be considered fast if you already know how to do all those things.
Sarah Broshar: Right. Yep.
Zack Arnold: Right. So from here, it seems to me and you can correct me if I'm wrong. But once you're kind of in quote, unquote, the trajectory now seems to just kind of make sense. You're in they enjoy working with you, you climb the ladder, the next movie comes in Spielberg says Are you available? You say of course I'm available. Is there anything that wouldn't kind of be like a common assumption to make between Tintin and now on having finished the fable men's where it's like, well, of course now it makes sense. While you're you're working with them. You
Sarah Broshar: You know, it's so funny, because I feel like every single year people would be like, are you still working with Spielberg? You don't you don't want to like go off and like, work with the new indie director. The unknown was like, I yeah, yes. In between Spielberg projects. I'd love to work with other great directors. But it's funny, I got challenged on this all the time. I think it's like it can be seen as being like, I don't know if complacent is the right word, but just sort of like, well, you just are comfortable. But it's not comfortable. It's not easy, necessarily. And it took a lot of work to yeah, there's a lot of there's there were opportunities to leave, but I didn't want to.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and it's it's funny that you bring that up. Because the dream that I hear from so many editors, or even assistant editors, is they say the dream is that I meet one director, and I work with that director for life because of the job security like everybody's like, if I could just find my Spielberg if I can find my Scorsese, right, like you look at Michael Kahn film a school maker, is that's the dream. And you're telling me that everybody's like, what's your problem? Why are you sticking around with Spielberg? Like the absurdity of that that does not escape?
Sarah Broshar: I think that that has sort of like, changed a little bit. But it was especially early on when I was a cyst, and I was only getting assistant credits. And people were like, well, what are you doing, aren't you and there's, of course, there's part of you too. That's like, you know, I'm doing a lot I'm like doing a lot more than what and this is still a different film would be doing right now on this project and like it so it was like, it was that those growing pains of like, sort of like feeling your ambition like fill up a balloon and then like having to either shove the balloon back in the box, but then it does keep the box keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And then I was you know, invited to be co editor and that felt very deserved. And I'm very happy to be there.
Zack Arnold: So let's I'm gonna I'm gonna pull this thread even further and from now I'm gonna take the perspective of the What's your problem? Why do you keep doing the same thing? It's so comfortable, right? Not that I feel though but that's the thread I want to pull further. So there's, there's kind of two directions that I want to go. And you can choose which one makes the most sense to go down first. One of which is this sense that you're living in somebody else's shadow. And you've worked all this time alongside somebody, they're always the one that gets all the big speeches, and they're at the podium, and they're in the awards talk. And at what point you just want to go out and become yourself. Right. So that's, that's kind of one of the challenges that I'd like to dig into if it is even something or not a challenge at all. But then the other one that I'm really curious about is given the pedigree that you've established, how many no's do you have that if you had said yes, would have potentially taken you in a different direction, so understanding what's not on your resume? That could have been because you've decided to stay on this track. So kind of whatever that looks like, you just dig in either of those areas.
Sarah Broshar: It's tricky. There's been a lot of knows for sure. And some of it is not even having the opportunities because I'm telling my agent, like, I'm not available from this, I'm only available these months, because I've already made the decision. I'm doing the next deal. You know, I've been doing a Spielberg movie. So it's like, waiting and taking things that will make sure that I'm lined up with him is somewhat there's like, I don't even know what other nodes there are. But there are certainly some really cool opportunities that have been those because it means I wouldn't be able to do the next project.
Zack Arnold: Is there anything that kind of lingers where you're like you what you said no to it at the time, I'm definitely available for Michael and for Steven. And then two years later, you're like, Oh, my God, this became this thing. Like, were there any of those moments? Or is the level of confidence than you're on the right path at 100%?
Sarah Broshar: The level of confidence is that 100%?
Zack Arnold: Yeah,
Sarah Broshar: I'm really happy to be working. I mean, I'm really proud of the faithfulness and pride of West Side Story. I've done other projects, you know, since the filaments, I've done other projects as well on my own. And I'm very proud of that work as well. Nothing I can talk about right now. But yeah, I feel good. You know.
Zack Arnold: So given all that now I want to transition to I really want to dig in, which is what is the cost of being on this path? Because like you said, Steven demands 110%. And from somebody that is kind and compassionate and honest that 110% can be the most rewarding and energizing thing in the world. But we're all still human. And as you mentioned, you have a dog and a cat. Yeah. And you also happen to be a mom. Right? So just for context, I hold your child.
Sarah Broshar: She's two, she's turning three in the fall.
Zack Arnold: So you're relatively new mom, then?
Sarah Broshar: Yeah, yeah, I was also I became a COVID. Mom, it was a very, it was a very interesting experience, because I just started secretly throwing up at work, when I saw that Italy was shutting down. And I was like, I bet it's coming from count for California. But it's like, I bet I can stay home for two weeks just to get through this morning sickness, and then I'll be fine. Nobody knew I was pregnant. You know, and then we, and then I, and then I saw the dates and I was like crazy. It's gonna get me through the first trimester. And then of course, we were to shut down which for, for the level of stress in the job and the hours. It was sort of fortunate timing for being a mom, because I got to stay at home. And then we ended up coming back to work remotely, to finish West Side Story. And I was home. And I had cleaned out the room that was going to become the baby room. But until then I put the oven in there, and I made it my cutting room and finished the movie remotely and and finished it about three weeks before she was born.
Zack Arnold: Hmm. So you gave birth to West Side Story in that room? And then you brought your baby into the same room.
Sarah Broshar: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, and I just feel very lucky about the timing of that because COVID was like obviously a terrible thing. Terrible thing that was really disruptive and stressful on so many different ways. But personally for my ease of pregnancy journey and ease of becoming a new mother. There are some ways that COVID was raised, you know how being a new parent was right? suited to having nobody be able to leave their houses. We were here with our new child and we're like, well, we don't have to be anywhere. We don't have to go anywhere we all and the fabled man started production when she was about seven months old and I was ready to go back to work for sure.
Zack Arnold: Alright, so we have this dis beautiful delineation of pre COVID and post COVID. So right now I want to talk pre COVID And I want to dig deeper into it. What are the costs? What are the sacrifices that have to be made to work on projects at this level to stay on this trajectory and to be valuable to a team like this? Because everybody says, oh my god, it'd be amazing to be in Sarah's shoes or Michael shoes or work on projects at this level, but very few actually talk about the costs. So let's talk about what are some of the costs if you haven't gone this path for so many years.
Sarah Broshar: It's definitely challenging on friendships, relationships to say, okay, all of a sudden, I'm leaving for four months, and I'm gonna live in a different country or a different city, different timezone, I got to figure out what to do with my dog, my house. And you're not being there, her friends are coming back and having missed out on like, a summer, because a lot of times I've gone through summers, I think I missed like four or five summers in a row in LA. So it's definitely like, part of your so I have great friends. And they're very, you know, they, they're always there for me, which is wonderful. But it's tough to be away from friends and family. And also to not necessarily have control over your schedule. So if someone says, Can you do this, and you're like, I don't know, we'll see. We'll see. I had to miss wedding like close friends, weddings, because I was in other countries, or I did make it back for one friend's wedding. But, you know, flying back from England to New Mexico and a flight was, I was on a tarmac for six hours. So I missed the whole, you know, is that kind of thing where everything takes a hit when you know, then you get back and you're exhausted, instead of having worked and then rested for the weekend, you've been flying and going to weddings, and then your work takes a hit a little bit, too. It's definitely challenging, too challenging to keep that up.
Zack Arnold: And I would guess that given given the level of what you're working in the pedigree of the people that you're working with, I would imagine fewer environments where it's harder to set clear boundaries, because the expectations are so high. But did you number one feel that you were able to set boundaries as necessary to protect mental health, physical health? Or was it just a matter of you know, this gets done at all costs? No matter what.
Sarah Broshar: It's a tricky question. I think it's this is a pre COVID, question post COVID. It's definitely easier to set boundaries. I don't know if that also goes hand in hand with becoming a mother.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, we're gonna get there in a second. I wanted to go there for sure. That's why I separated these two.
Sarah Broshar: Yeah, pre-COVID. Pre having a child. It's a tricky question, because Steven is pretty good about that. Steven is really, he's not a director who says, we're going to work till midnight on a Wednesday. He's the director who is generally like, has a family wants to be home for dinner with his family. And one thing when when we're in production, and we're doing night shoots, where things are really tough. That's a different story. But generally, it's a controlled amount of time. So we can look at the schedule and see, okay, we've got six days shoots, that means we're probably going to be cutting for the seventh day, our day off with Steven. So we've got some seven day weeks coming up. But we can see that it's only a few weeks. And there will be times when he said, Okay, we're working this weekend, the holiday weekend, got plans to go somewhere, canceling the trip. And getting the work done. That happened last in the last couple of years. I think also. Yeah, they don't. You know, it's definitely happened less than the last couple of years. But pre COVID, there were plenty of weekend plans that went out the window trips that were canceled, because, you know, the new jobs starting and so you got to cancel whatever trip you had planned to go start the new job. That makes sense. Did I answer part of that?
Zack Arnold: Yeah. No, that totally makes sense. And I'm glad that you teed it up a little bit about how you know, you were very emphatic. Well, that's a different question. If we're talking post COVID, and post baby, that's the part that I really want to get into. Because there are so many people that have come to me in my program. Many of my clients literally have been on calls with me in tears, where they say, I'm a female, and I've got a family. And it's impossible for me to be able to build the career that I want to just because of the demands and the expectations. And you've now kind of had this the pre COVID pre baby experience and post COVID And now you're a mom experience. So I'm curious, what's changed? What's harder, what's easier, like you said, setting boundaries is easier, for example, but what's the real shift that you've seen as far as the expectations put upon you and just the job itself and balancing it all?
Sarah Broshar: I in post COVID Yes. I think that a couple of things, I think the year. I think there's two you know, it's interesting because I've got two different post COVID experiences I've had I had the Fae woman and then I have this other film that was on the last year which wasn't a Steven or Michael project and So with fable, mins, I went back to work. Fresh baby, everyone had not been working. And I was still breastfeeding. So I was pumping a couple times at work. And people that I worked with Michael, Steven crispy the producer, everyone was very accommodating and respectful and gave me space and respected whatever schedule I had. And so in one sense, that was sort of like a boundary of saying, hey, I need to do this for my child. And then we said, Yep, no questions asked, it's time, you know, you do your thing. Similarly, I just, Christie was really helpful with production on that show, and said, like, you guys don't need to come. Sometimes we used to start at like six or seven in the morning. And on that film, with me and a young child and other circumstances, we didn't start as early. So I had time every morning to see her and take care of her most nights, I made it home by bedtime, not every night, but most nights, I also made it home by bedtime. I was very proud of that film. And this might sound like a small thing. But going into production I expected for there to be days where I wouldn't see her when things got really intense and really hard. And I think partly the nature of the film that being like a, you know, mostly location or studio shoot not special effects thing, it was easier to have normal days, easier to cut, not as the easier to cut the movie, but it was like a less technically involved project. Whereas on a film, like Ready Player One or BFG, we could be starting at six and going till 10 At night, and having just no personal time whatsoever, because those projects are so demanding. Um, so I think that having people that I work with who knew me and knew that I was really capable of getting the job done, was helpful. And also respecting that I have this child and I actually felt like I was so efficient. Coming back, having a child, there was like a different energy to your work, you're like, I'm gonna get the job done. I can go home and have dinner with my family. And I felt that especially on this last project that was on as well, I was like, I'm going to get it done. And there were some nights where I didn't get it done. But I still laughed, went home and had dinner with my family. And if I needed to, I was able to log on via jump and finish up some work after bedtime. But it was just really important for me to sort of, it's harder, I feel like it's harder now that she's older. And now that she's in preschool and talking. It's harder to be away from her. Whereas when she was a baby, it was like tough to be away from her. But also I didn't know she was happy with my husband was her nanny definitely harder when she can talk to tell you.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, well, one of the biggest challenges that I can definitely share and I haven't you know, worked at the level of extremely you have, but I've worked on some very high profile stuff, with a lot of very demanding deadlines and guidelines and all these other things is that when the kids are really, really young, you want to be with them, but there's a voice in your hands. It's like, they're never gonna remember this anyway. Versus they're gonna know that daddy's not home for bedtime. That was when everything shifted. And one of the jokes that I make that isn't really a joke when people come to me because I teach a lot about time management and productivity. And that's kind of one of my things. So like, what's, what's the number one time management strategy you can give me to be more productive, and I say have a kid. totally right. Because your priorities shift. There's no room to mess around in the edit room anymore. You're gonna get things done because you got bedtime to make it to and that changes the whole game.
Sarah Broshar: Yes, and I remember like on paper events, if I had like 15 minutes, that lunch break, I would be meal planning Isabel's meal and my daughter's meals for like the following week and typing up her typing up like what it would be and doing the quote, it was just like exactly what you say. It was like if I am if I have five minutes that's not put to this. I will be spending it doing something for her then. Yeah, it's great though. I felt so I loved it. Loved it. I still love it. I it was a it was a very happy it was I was so happy shooting that movie and also feeling fulfilled to have my family at home in LA It was lucky to shoot a film in LA actually coming out of COVID being a mom.
Zack Arnold: So given that it's only going to get harder going forward instead of easier. You probably knew that already. So I'm you know, I'm not dumping this big, giant obligation, like why it's gonna get harder.
Sarah Broshar: This last film, I figure that out. I was like, Oh, this isn't a real thing.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, there are certain things where yeah, they're gonna sleep through the night and there's no longer diapers and they can make themselves a bowl of cereal in the morning like, in certain respects they get easier, but emotionally it gets way, way harder. because there's more important developmental experiences that they have, that you feel the need and want to be a part of. And juggling the two gets a lot more difficult going forwards. So I'm curious if maybe this is something you've already thought about, and you've got it on, you know, all your notepads in front of you, or it's something you haven't really considered. But regardless of the work that you're doing, you're working at the highest level with the biggest filmmakers in the history of the medium. Regardless of that, what's non negotiable for you? What are boundaries that you're just not willing to cross because of the values that you prioritize outside of your job?
Sarah Broshar: I, it's tough because there is a Steven answer and a non Steven answer.
Zack Arnold: I love that. I want to hear both.
Sarah Broshar: Yeah. So for Steven, I will make things work. And we will figure out, you know, because like I said, Steven is a very respectful filmmaker, and well, and like I said, he, I have weekends, sometimes I'm leaving at five or six in the evening. Usually, I'm leaving at six in the evening. And, and it just, you know, I will make things work with, if I'm considering an honest, even projects, I have things I consider, like, what is the commute going to be like, and I will not do a commute that is longer than maybe 45 minutes, 40 minutes, something like that. So it limits the jobs I can take because I don't want to drive to Santa Monica. Right now where I'm at with my career. I don't want to spend two hours in the car every day. That's one of the boundaries. And I think that's really it. It's just it's a two time question. I did a project. Last summer, it was a lot of fun. But it was in New York, and it was just a couple of weeks helping out like a recut of something and I have to be really like, okay, no weekend's my weekend. This is when I see my daughter. And that's what it is. So yeah. Tricky.
Zack Arnold: Alright, so I'm gonna put you on the spot. And I'm gonna try not to get you in trouble. But I think that these are the real questions that so many people just aren't willing to face because it's always about career first. And I think you've got a really good head I knew and that that's not the case. So I don't want to get you in trouble with your employer. Sure. What's a no even for Steven?
Sarah Broshar: Oh, my goodness. No, even for Steven. Well, it's, ah, god. It's so hard to say because I again. I feel like it's not gonna be a no, it's gonna be on the go, it would be a negotiation. Do you want me? Yes, I feel like they would want to work things out so that we're all happy. So if there was a project that I don't know, it's hard to say if maybe it's the same thing. Maybe it's a commute question, which again, it's hard to imagine because we have the same cutting room we've had for years. And it's wonderful, but maybe the maybe it would be more of like, if we're going to be on the other side of town, I would need to be put up closer. I don't know. It's hard to it's hard to say talk in hypotheticals. I don't want to really go there too much.
Zack Arnold: Like I said, I don't want to get you in trouble out. Let me let me narrow it down a little bit. It's not necessarily a A No, Steven, I'm not going to do your film. Let's make it more micro of like, No, I can't come in on this Saturday, or I'm going to have to skip a Friday. Like, I want to really get into the granular part of it, where even it's like, we really need this. You're like, No, I can't because of this.
Sarah Broshar: Oh, sure. That's, that's definitely come up, even where we're cutting. And I'll say, hey, Steven, I need to leave early tonight, because it's my daughter's birthday. Yeah, I'll say, Okay. And I'll leave early. For that reason. You know, it's tough, because like, a lot of times, I'll just kind of it was I remember, this was her first birthday, and it was a Friday. And I was like, a lot of times on Fridays, he'll wrap up a little on the early side anyway, so I was kind of hoping it would just come about naturally. And then I realized that he had a dinner downtown or something. We were going to be working up until his appointment. And I had to say, oh, excuse me, I have to go for my celebrate my daughter's birthday. And so we did that. He's very, very reasonable when it comes to these kinds of requests, I think.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. And this, I'm very encouraged by this. Because I think the the assumption would be from the outside, well, you just you have to give everything up to be at the level that you are. And what I appreciate about Steven so much, and I knew this some already but I'm really kind of digging deeper into what it's like in the room, is I think it's so hard for you to answer what's a no, because you've never actually been put in that position because you have somebody that respects you and already respects your boundaries. So it's like, I don't really need to say no, because he doesn't put me in that position. That's an amazing place to be.
Sarah Broshar: Yeah. It's so funny because very early on. I wouldn't ask. I wouldn't like tell anyone that I had to go to the bathroom. because I didn't want to disrupt the flow. Do you knwo what I mean?
Zack Arnold: No pun intended, right?
Sarah Broshar: Well, there you go. And so, you know, it's sitting there. And all of a sudden, you'd be like, if you were to get a phone call or take a break, or something, and like, I would be sprinting to the bathroom, or that I finally realized, you know what, I just say, Excuse me, I need to use a bathroom. It's simple things like that. But when you're starting out, and when you're out, there's still times where I don't, because I'm like, this isn't a good time. You know, you kind of read the room, but like, generally, I really have to go to the bathroom, or go to the bathroom, three minutes, or whatever long it takes no.
Zack Arnold: So then I'm curious, having spent so many years in this kind of joint edit suite, have has Michael modeled the ability to set boundaries where he's like, you know, the you need to protect us no matter what versus this is when you need to, you know, make sure that this gets done, no matter the cost. Like I'm just, I'm curious how he approaches it, because he's been in the industry for so much longer. And he has seen the transition from the days of film to now we can do so much more in so much less time. But it doesn't mean we get to go home earlier, it just means we have more expectations. So I'm curious what lessons you've learned from him from the edit room about how to manage the room, not from the creative perspective, but more from a perspective of boundaries and taking care of yourself and looking up for yourself.
Sarah Broshar: You know, one thing Michael said to me, which I really I can't remember what the context was, I wish I remembered, oh, gosh, I really wish I remembered the context. But he said to me once, like your child isn't the most important thing, like your family and your child is the most important thing. Everything else should be put on in like second place to that. And I love that, but I can't remember what it what we were talking about. So,
Zack Arnold: I actually don't know the answer to this question. Does he have family? Does he have kids as well?
Sarah Broshar: Yep. He has one daughter and grandkids and great grandkids.
Zack Arnold: So then he he's definitely in the position of understanding what it takes to be able to set boundaries and knowing how important that lesson is not just oh, I read that on Instagram. He's like, No, trust me. I've learned his lesson to kids come first.
Sarah Broshar: Yeah, I wonder if it's from personal experience or not. But yes, he definitely has a family that he's very, very close with them? Yeah. I think you know, it's tough to say I don't want to speak to his experience at all. He's, you know, very different generation from me. And a man, having child in the 50s is very different for a woman having a child and whatever it is now, I think 20s Okay. Yeah, I guess it's the new 20s. But,
Zack Arnold: Does that make you feel old by the way? Yeah. 20s is the period of spring you have swing and free? You know, great depression. This can't be the 20 Oh, yeah. That's for that,
Sarah Broshar: Yeah, pretty wild. Yeah. So it's, it's it's really interesting to ask. I definitely think that, you know, working with Michael Pat's, even all having people that these are people with children, they definitely understood, understand what it's like, more than I knew what I was getting myself into, they knew what I was getting into, you know, for sure.
Zack Arnold: Alright so what I want to now dig into a little bit deeper, maybe it is a little bit into the craft and the process, but it's still going to be in the same general conversation. But what I want to do is I want to be a fly on the wall in the room, and it's during a really specific scene. But because there it's the scene in The Fabelmans with Judd Hirsch. And I have a suspicion about that scene. And I want you to confirm that suspicion. But of all of Spielberg's movies, all the things that everybody knows that are seminal in the world of film history, of all the scenes that spoke to me, and literally just got me in the center of my soul, this was the scene. And what got me is this concept of you got your family you've got your heart. Into it's a horrible Judd Hirsch impression. But then it talks about how you know you love your mom, you love your dad, you love your siblings, but she loves your art more. And I was like, oh my god, this is speaking to the darkest depths of my soul and the amount of guilt that I felt because I'm like, Oh, my God, yes. What? Am I really that horrible of a person? So I'm curious first, if you resonated with this, and then I want to dig a little bit deeper into the importance of that scene to Steven, because that, to me, was everything that wasn't just here's the heart of the film is that was here's the heart of my entire body of work.
Sarah Broshar: Absolutely. It was. I love that scene. And I think it speaks to everybody, which I think is what makes the scene so amazing. I mean, sure, some people more if you're in a creative field and have a creative calling. Yeah, I think that seeing is, is also probably partly a Tony Kushner master piece as well with I think it's definitely both of them together and Then just having a great performance. But yeah, it definitely spoke to me, the family the art. This is a really weird tangent, but there's some kind of like, I don't know, this is maybe not a good story to tell,
Zack Arnold: Tell it well, I will determine that you just tell you go off on a tangent, pull the thread, do it,
Sarah Broshar: if you like, and you keep it if you don't like it, don't keep it but it's so funny. Like 20 years ago, a friend of mine got into some like weird, not It's not tarot card, it's not astrology, but some other like system of cards. And, you know, that kind of thing. And like, according to my card, I was the ace of diamonds, which was, that was like the definition of my car torn between family and love and money and career, which, you know, I take money as like meaning career ambition. And it was just like, that was like the definition of myself. And I always felt that being a person who is torn between, like I said, having relationships, having family sort of being in a social situation, being rooted and grounded someplace, and also then being like ripped up to go do something that you want to be that you're passionate about. I don't know. Tangent.
Zack Arnold: No, I think I think it's an I think that's a great tangent. Because whether or not somebody believes in tarot cards, or chakras, or energy balances or visual whatever, all that's regardless of the fact that that resonated with you. Right, that that was the important thing. And for me watching that scene, I was like, Oh, my God, like this, this is this is literally me. And this is my eternal struggle. And it's, I literally can't get this scene out of my head. Like, ever since I saw it. I just, it's like this constant thing that I keep hearing over and over and over. So I've got Judd Hirsch in my head 24/7. But it's forced me to really answer the question. Is it true? Like, is it true that as much as I love my family, and I love my wife, like, do I love the creative work more, and it's a constant struggle, like even the fact that I have to debate it? And not say, Well, absolutely, not just the fact that I'm debating, it makes me feel like a horrible person. But when I when you look at the day to day, and I'm would guess that this is something you've experienced, as well, especially as a new parent, where of course, you say the number one priority is family and kids and making sure that I'm present for them. But if you look at the minutiae of any given day, you're in the middle of a scene, and you're cutting in and you're in the zone and somebody knocks on your door, and they need help with this, that or the other thing, isn't there a part of you, it's like, I just, I need to be doing this thing. Instead, I would get to experience that.
Sarah Broshar: It's tricky, especially right now strikes, everything's shut down. I'm home, I'm not working. I've got all these things. I have, like, separate several different lists of things that I want it you know, like, things, I need to do things I want to do this kind of thing. And, and then I'm like, Oh, but I have some friends who wants some help on the short film, like, I will just put everything aside and jump into editing this project and everything else off, because it's really what I like to do. And it's a comfortable place for me to be in, for sure. Yeah, no, it's like a definitely, I think it's great, though, I think it's good to have an artistic calling. I think it's important. I think that being immersed in something is and like creative and invested. And having ambition and modeling that for our children is a good thing. As long as we just take a little time and make sure they're supported and loved as well.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I mean, it's it's a delicate balancing act, and it's spinning 27 different plates simultaneously hoping that none of them break. And it's an eternal struggle, but it's one that I always think about. And I have to be very honest with myself, just like I said, that scene forced me to be very honest with myself, the if I'm choosing between my kids or the job, I'm always gonna choose my kids in my family. There are a lot of actions on a day to day basis where you know, maybe I made the decision otherwise, and it just it made me realize how it's not just this is about a job or I love the craft or I enjoy editing or I enjoy podcasting or coaching. There's this deeper need. There's something that I need to get out. And I'm glad you brought up the concept of a creative calling. Because that's something I talk about incessantly. Just for anybody that's listening, I talk about this with the author of the literal book creative calling, Chase Jarvis and a reason podcast, because I'm obsessed with it. So I'm curious. What do you believe your creative calling is? And it's not I want to edit movies. It's way deeper than that. What do you think your creative calling is?
Sarah Broshar: This is I think that my creative calling is sort of trying. This makes sense trying to be an impartial listener. So I think that I'm really I'm taking painting classes. I've been taking painting classes for a few years and especially right now and painting once a week. And I guess my listener, I mean observer. I think my When I paint, it's not about trying to make this or that. But it's trying to see things differently and see things fresh and see things not necessarily photo real but represent, you know, how is it representing what I want it to represent? Is it what feels true? And so I feel like that's the same thing applied to film editing, as I watch a film and I say, Does this feel true? Does this feel how, like looking at myself as an audience, sort of my impartial observation of something and saying, How does this feel? How can it feel? Like how do we want to make it stronger in one direction? Or another direction? Does that make sense?
Zack Arnold: It does. So so it sounds to me like one of the core values, that's part of your creative calling is that you have a high value towards authenticity. Sure, right. When you say it's got to be true, you see yourself as kind of that vessel or that impartial observer that can help get us to the truth.
Sarah Broshar: I don't know about authenticity, maybe authenticity. But yeah, maybe it's sort of. And again, I don't know if this is like really my creative calling, but it's something it's just something that interests me that I've found that unites different, creative things that I'm interested in painting, cooking, you know, filmmaking. I don't know, that's, that's like, watching me watch myself is fascinating. I think sometimes watching me watch a movie and not and not, you know, not just saying, okay, is this movie working? But really being like, Wait, did you? Do you actually feel something here? Are you thinking you feel something here because like, you can't do that, you have to actually watch how you're really reacting to something. And I think the same thing with painting or with art is that you might spend a while on a section and you step back and you're like, Well, I know you're trying to force something here. But actually just step back and look at it and see what feels right or feel feels wrong, or I I don't know.
Zack Arnold: I think that could be part of it. But this idea of being able to step outside, I think is a really important part of your process. And it's like you're reading my notes, because this is the perfect segue to where I want to go next is that you met you mentioned, I don't think you even realize how key this is. And how important this is for people to understand this, especially going forwards, which I'm going to talk about in a second. But you said no matter if I'm editing, or if I'm painting, or if I'm cooking, there's a part of you, in essence, that makes you good at all of those and approach it in your own unique way. And what I've been saying to everybody for the last several months, both because of the strike that at least as of recording this, I don't know exactly when it releases. But as of recording, like you mentioned, we're still in complete and total shutdown. But more importantly, with the advent of artificial intelligence, I think that as creatives we're having a pretty massive identity crisis right now. Which is if my job is to do this, one thing in technology replaces me, well, then who the hell am I? And you found that Yeah, right. And I believe that also, that when it comes to specialization, a certain percentage of people are going to keep making a living doing one thing, I'm pretty confident that if you decide I only want to make a living editing feature films, I think you're going to be safe for a while. And you can tell me if you feel otherwise. But I think that because the workforce is going to shrink, just because any new technology requires less people to do the same amount of work. I really believe people, especially creative people have to diversify. What are the skills that I have? What's the value that I can bring to different areas, whether it's just like for you going back to editing promos, for example, versus I could bring myself to the world of painting or the world of cooking and still bring your unique, unique value and what that creative calling is. So I just I want to go even one layer deeper. And I want you to really clarify, let's use cooking as an example. Because cooking just seems like it's the outlier of editing, painting and clicking. Right? What what you said that when I'm watching this film, there's this sense of I there's a difference between I'm thinking I'm feeling something versus what do I actually feel? How do you take the essence of who you are and what your creative calling is and apply it to cooking?
Sarah Broshar: Oh, my, well, I should say I'm not like a in any sense of professional or trained or I don't know anything about cooking,
Zack Arnold: And you don't need to be by the way, right? That's not the important part.
Sarah Broshar: I like reading cookbooks. I don't like following recipes. So I think that I think that's part of it. I think if you have a recipe and you have ingredients on hand, and it's sort of an improvisation even if you have a strict recipe, how out of the How long do you cook it when you stir? When do you add this thing? And, you know, tasting the food, seeing how it's coming. Sometimes if you're like if you're doing something in the oven where you have to bake it and then find out 30 minutes later, you can't necessarily adjust things on the fly but sometimes you can't I don't know.
Zack Arnold: It's funny because you You and I are so similar. I had no idea that we had so many of these similarities. But I'm the same way. My process is maybe slightly different. But when it comes to cooking, my rule is I'll do your recipe once. Because I just want I want to understand the mechanics. All right, finally, I do it in this order. And I do that I do exactly what you told me to do. And I, I'll eat it. And I'm like, Okay, so here are all the things I need to change. Here. All the things I need to iterate on, whether it's the process, I do it in a different order, I add different ingredients. Yeah, that's literally a story of my entire life. And every avenue of my life as an editor as a coach as a podcaster. As a parent, it's like, well, let me try the thing that I'm supposed to do. And now let me just rip it to shreds and find my own way. And it sounds like you can relate to that.
Sarah Broshar: Sure. For sure. Although sometimes, like I, you know, I won't, I don't always call the recipe the first time. Sometimes
Zack Arnold: You're more of a rebel than I am.
Sarah Broshar: It depends sometimes sometimes, you know, sometimes I have an idea for what I want to make. And I'll read three different recipes that are not quite at and try to put the ideas together into one that kind of
Zack Arnold: Something tells me you approach painting exactly the same way. Well,
Sarah Broshar: Well, I so I've been taking lessons. So I am painting in this, you know, with guidance, which is great. It's a group called Roofless Painters. And they're wonderful. The code the teachers, this guy, Julio. And he's just really sensitive and insightful, and helpful. And, and so we've mostly, it's mostly, it's fun, I say this because my like, when I am attracted to art or painting, it's usually abstract. And everything that I paint is, is figurative, and representational. And like, you know, painting either a picture or something in real life. But I'm learning how to paint. So that's what I got to do. Maybe someday I'll try to make some cool abstract stuff. But I don't know right now. It's not what I'm doing, even though that's what I'm attracted to.
Zack Arnold: And if we're if we're looking at the creative process, you're still in the stage of, I'm learning right? I'm in the learning phase, I'm not in the performing phase is something else that I talked about in our recent conversation with the author of a book called The Performance paradox, which is an exciting if you've heard of the concepts, the fixed mindset and the growth mindset. Fascinating just how just a shift in mindset and belief can change the direction that your career or your life goes, I think you understand a lot of the concepts, you just don't know that you understand the concepts because Ray way back at the beginning, where you said, my goal is that I'm going to work with a Master Editor and I'm going to become great at editing, you're already adhering to a lot of the growth mindset concepts. But the point being, that there's a learning phase in their performance phase and right right now the learning phases, actually learn the basics. How does the brushwork what's the oil versus watercolor? But my guess is that the essence of you, you're going to reach a point where you're going to say, I know I'm supposed to do it this way. But let me try it this way instead, and see what happens. Right? I could see watching Bob Ross painting mountains, and you're like, No, I'm not, but I'm not gonna put a tree there. I'm gonna put it over here instead. Right, right. Am I Am I totally far off?
Sarah Broshar: We'll see. I mean, we'll see, time will tell. I don't know, right now I'm just enjoying learning and painting and trying to, like I said, trying to kind of I just love painting right now. Because it's so analog to it's not on a computer, not digital, it's outdoors, there's light involved.
Zack Arnold: And that's so even in your position, given that you have what I would consider a fairly high level of job security. That's with so many people worried about job security, with the advent of AI, you have a high level of job security, but you're still diversifying how you spend your time and how you're using your creative calling, not because it's a way to monetize or earn extra money, just because it's fulfilling to you. Just because it fills your life up.
Sarah Broshar: Sure that's always been the person I am too I have, you know, a lot of interests and I want to pursue them. So it's, it's great. I like that. As a kid, I would, you know, I would see an eight hour car ride as an opportunity or like a plane ride, like, what are all the things I'm gonna do in the car, I'm gonna bring the books and I'm gonna bring the paint, and I'm gonna read the crowds. And like, you know, I still feel like that whenever I get a whenever I get on a 10 hour plane ride, I'm gonna watch this movie, I'm gonna read this book, and I'm gonna do this and that, you know, I just I like to do things. That's part of who I am, I guess. I think a lot of people like to do things. But you know,
Zack Arnold: I think a lot of people like to do a lot of different things. But I think the world has conditioned us to believe that after a certain age, just do one thing all those those hobbies, were fun at one point, but this is now who you are. And it's the thing that you do. And that's what I'm really trying to help people with. Isn't that I think you're very much in the minority. Where Yes, you have a very singular career track where you know, minus a little bit of kind of back and forth for a while. You grabbed the bottom rung of a ladder and you climbed it to the top. That's actually really unusual, but you've diversified your other interests just to bring more fulfillment, where so many people feel the incessant Need to just follow that one path and not be so scatterbrained and just get good at this one thing, because specialization is kind of the the way that we've designed our careers because we've been told that's the way to do it. Right. So I think that there's a lot of things that you're already doing that are bringing more of that balance. And that diversity, even though you have that one kind of singular career track, so to speak from the outside. So I don't know if this is a total deviation, I want to make sure that I'm not making any assumptions or putting words into your mouth, based on what I'm saying about this transition to AI. But have you had any thoughts about what the future of your livelihood and your job looks like as an editor, given all of the changes that we're experiencing right now?
Sarah Broshar: Oh, it's so hard to say? I don't know yet. I don't know yet. I mean, I don't think AI can edit a movie. I don't think it can write a movie? Well, I think it could write a movie that I'm not interested in seeing. But I don't think it could write a movie that that brings a sense of awe or curiosity to me. I don't know that might change. We'll see. I don't know. But I really but I say but I say write or direct or obviously perform. It's interesting, because you know, I think with the animated or computer generated world, I could see it, I could see it sort of affecting what I do first in that sense, like in visual effects, or in animation or computer generated a things where we're already using computers to make something. Yeah, I don't know. We'll see.
Zack Arnold: We'll we'll definitely see. And I don't pretend to know anything about what's coming in the future. But I see it as my role. My creative calling is to inspire people to learn these new things and prepare themselves as opposed to sitting and waiting around and fingers crossed. It all goes okay, like, that's right. Yeah. So that's part of my calling. And we're at the point now, where artificial intelligence can write a script, and artificial intelligence can edit a movie, but you said, Can they do it? Well, that's the important part. But now the technology can do really shitty versions. So I want to know, from your perspective, I myself could answer this for about two hours straight. But I want to know your perspective. Yeah. What makes you irreplaceable? While you're not worried about Steven saying, I'm going to hit the edit button for my next movie?
Sarah Broshar: It's your personal. You know, it's, it's, yeah, it's, you know, I think that we have things that make us innately human like are our emotions, our sensibilities, our idiosyncrasies, what does that word and synchronicities idiosyncrasy? Yeah. And, you know, especially someone like Steven, I don't see him going that route, somebody, you know, a newer, maybe it's just video, who knows? Who knows what? Why would they want a real person not AI? Yeah, I just don't you mean if AI could do a good job, because it can't yet.
Zack Arnold: Right now, we're technically at the point where it's not quite as simplified as this, but we're pretty close to hit the edit button. There's technology that can do it, it can it can assemble the pieces. But there's a big difference between technically doing it and doing it well. And I'm really trying to ensure and I'm trying to inspire and encourage people that there's so much value that we have, that goes beyond our ability to manage avid and organize dailies and assemble scenes together, like there are a lot of a lot of parts of the process that I think are going to become a lot more efficient because of AI. So I think that there, there are going to be tools we can use to eliminate a lot of the tedium, but in my mind, that gives us more space to bring what we are as humans to the creative process.
Sarah Broshar: I just think there there is like infinite numbers of ways to edit a scene and say, just so we don't have to deal with infinity like 100, the state of 100 ways of editing a scene well, or 100 ways of editing a scene 50 Those might be like good ways of editing a scene. And you might experiment with 20 of those ways, or 10 of those ways in the cutting room with the director and say, these are all valid ways to edit the scene like these are all we could release the movie with the scene cut like this. And you go back and forth with performance choices with which character you want for which lines or when are you off a character and they're all valid ways and the person that is making that decision as the editor as the director, that is the humanity you're bringing to the film and like we have this there's I mean, we could edit movies for forever as humans like there's never a final answer. It's always a judgment call. So you know, it's always like a pencils down, because it's time to move on. Because you could keep, like we could, we could still be editing The Fabelmans, because it is so fun to explore performances and explore all the opportunities. And I don't know, I don't think we necessarily end up with a very different movie. But like, I think with AI, there are like, plenty of ways to edit a scene, but they might not be as interesting or moving or scary, or whatever the case.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, one of my favorite quotes to better understand the creative process is actually from George Lucas, kind of in a similar world. And he says, You never finished a film you abandon it? Sure. Because you have to, because you got deadlines and budgets. But yeah, you could literally go on forever. And there, there are a multitude of reasons I'm not worried. But ultimately, as an editor, I feel that what you're paying me for are my opinions. Sure, you're paying for that, my opinion is that in order to achieve your vision and tell your story, this is the shot, the scene has to start with. And it has to at this moment, this frame has to transition to this next shot to invoke this feeling. And the music has to come in on this frame. But these are my opinions. And if you don't like my opinions, I might be perfectly technically capable of cutting your film. But I'm not cutting your film. I'm cutting a film. So I think we get paid for our opinions and AI doesn't have opinions.
Sarah Broshar: Right. Yeah. Sensitive. It's like a sensitivity question. It's like you say, like, yeah, there's a ways that you could you could cut, you could see a scene cut one way and be like, Okay, that's a totally fine scene. And then you could get cut differently with different emphasis on characters or holding a shot longer or slower. And you're like, Oh, that's a great scene. There's like so many variations on editing, and I don't think is capable of having an emotional response yet to tell the difference.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, the day that, that AI becomes self aware, and it has empathy, and it has its own opinions and understands the nuance, we're in trouble.
Sarah Broshar: But well, the different planet by then maybe yes.
Zack Arnold: The odds of that are Yeah, that's I don't believe that's happening anytime soon. But again, I'm not a technologist. And maybe it already exists. But that, to me, just seems so infinitely complex. I'm not even worried about that time coming. Yeah, I really don't think we need to worry about it. But having said all that, I could easily talk about this for another four or 510 hours. But I also realized, and I'm reminded that you are a parent, and you have a family, and you have interest outside of being on my podcast. So I want to be very respectful of your time. But is there is there any last thing, any kind of message that you want to share? Given that you're not united in front of the microphone, too often, you kind of you know, check yourself sequestered? Is there anything, we haven't covered this a really important message that you want to put out there?
Sarah Broshar: I have one thing that I don't know, is an important message. But I just wanted to share it because I thought it was interesting that you could either put here or you could put wherever you want, which is that I had lunch with somebody recently who I had had lunch with 10 years ago, in the capacity of like her AFI. I was her ASI mentor when she was leaving the program. And and then we just had lunch recently. And she told me the advice I gave her 10 years ago, which I could not relate to, at this point in my life, which was at the time, I said, get ready to give everything up. You can't have a life. You can't do everything. Anything you have, you can't get a dog, which i i was like i said that to you because I have a dog and I got a dog probably around the same period of time. Maybe it was right before I decided I actually could get a dog. So I don't know, I'm just bringing this up because I thought it was a really kind of like maybe true of like, what it's like to be in, you know, like early on in your career, and then later in your career, versus I don't know why I'm showing it.
Zack Arnold: But what did you learn from it? Yeah, what what did you learn from realizing that?
Sarah Broshar: I think two things I think I learned that like, you know, like, I change as a person, because I was like, I can't believe I said that to you. It's like, I think that was like not very supportive advice. And also, maybe the environments changed. We're now and maybe it's more okay to set boundaries, whereas 10 or 15 years ago, the attitude was work, work, work and give everything to everyone. And I think that's changed across the board. I don't think that's just changed for me being in my position. Now. I think that's changed for people in all positions. I don't know.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I think that's without you realizing it. I think that's a really great way to summarize everything that we've talked about, because it's really at the heart of this conversation of how do we balance this absolute love desire or even being this drug to be creative? versus you know, we have people that we care about, and we have a life outside of the job, which is what makes us whole and makes us more diverse and makes us more fulfilled. So you know, you might think it's just some random idea that we need to figure out where to edit At the end, but you just perfectly summarize all of this, which means I didn't need to do it. So thank you. You're welcome. So having said all of this, I don't want to put you on the spot. But I have no doubt that a lot of people are going to be inspired by today's conversation. So a two part question. The first part is, is it okay, if somebody wanted to reach out and connect with you? And if so, part two, how would they do that?
Sarah Broshar: Oh, my goodness. You mean, like, what's my email address?
Zack Arnold: I mean, what what is the most comfortable way that if somebody wanted to connect with you to learn more? If so, okay, so email, so great. So you're, you're somebody that even in your position, you're willing to connect with people and help them?
Sarah Broshar: I am totally willing, and helpful. I am terrible with email.
Zack Arnold: Me too, by the way.
Sarah Broshar: Email because like, I will say email, but I will also say that it doesn't hurt to keep emailing if someone like me doesn't respond right away, like you
Zack Arnold: I was gonna say, How many times did it take me to actually get you on the calendar and get you on the microphone, you know, and it was never a matter of taking it personally, or feeling like, Oh, we're bothering each other as this is just the nature of our industry and our work. And it's just going to take time, and it takes patience. But the the important thing that I want to convey because I talk so much about networking and relationship building, is people just assume well, you're too important. You're too big and too successful. You would somebody like that would never want to help me and you're making it clear. No, I do want to help just set the expectation it might take a while.
Sarah Broshar: Yeah, I another Robert Wright, her connection, turned out to be a dear friend. Flash, you know, wasn't started as an intern for me, became an assistant is now editing himself in New York. But it was the kind of situation where he just kept emailing me and I pick up the first one didn't respond. And then after three emails, and this was a long time ago, and I was like, Okay, let's go let's meet for lunch.
Zack Arnold: Well, I cannot express enough and will repeat incessantly. How how much this was worth the wait. I'm glad that you and I connected all those many, many years ago for the random Meet and Greet lunch, and excited that we were able to get on this call today. And you could share a much different side of your experience in Hollywood beyond just the craft of it because I think this conversation will be invaluable for so many people in our industry, so I can't thank you enough.
Sarah Broshar: Well, thank you. It's fun to talk
This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared by Debby Germino and published by Glen McNiel.
The original music in the opening and closing of the show is courtesy of Joe Trapanese (who is quite possibly one of the most talented composers on the face of the planet).
Chase Jarvis and I discuss key strategies you can use to intentionally use your creative calling, as well as how to surround yourself with the right people that will support your creativity and goals along with it.
Eduardo Briceño completely reframes the process of learning and reaching your own peak level of high performance in ways that are both simple to understand and fulfilling to practice.
We can do our jobs and we can live our lives and the more fully we are able to live our lives and the more humanely we treat ourselves and the people around us the better we can do our jobs.
No matter your creative career ambitions and the obstacles standing between you and your goals, Peter’s inspiring story and infectious optimism will motivate you to push past your own limits and design your dream career.
Eddie Hamilton, ACE (Top Gun: Maverick, the last 3 Mission: Impossible films, Kick-Ass 1 & 2, and X-Men: First Class) and I talk about his early career choices and how he was able to become one of the top feature editors in the world…without ever going to film school.
Consistency. Perseverance. Willingness to help others. Agustin Rexach embodies these principles. He shares how a service-centric mindset is essential for career success.
You can't survive 50 years in post-production working on some of the biggest films of all time without knowing how to take care of yourself. This is episode is a MUST LISTEN for anyone hoping to have a long-lasting and successful career as an editor.
If you’ve ever wondered what it takes to not only survive but thrive while working on Hollywood blockbusters like The Avengers series, then this conversation with Jeffery Ford, ACE is going to give you the inside look you’ve been waiting for.
Having edited such films as E.T., The Big Chill, and The Accidental Tourist (to name a few), Carol Littleton knows what it takes to survive working in post for the long haul. Learn her strategies for staying sharp and energetic in the cutting room.
Today's guest, James Wilcox is here to debunk that myth that success is about waiting for opportunity to be bestowed upon you. And how to prepare…
Ralph and I dive deep into his life, his successes, and his failures along the way far beyond just his role as Daniel LaRusso in The Karate Kid and Cobra Kai.
Throughout our conversation, William shares his first hand experiences on some of the principles I teach in the Optimizer Coaching and Mentorship program like shifting your mindset to work in your favor, staying authentic to your values, facing your fears head on.
Unlike doctors or lawyers, the path to having a successful career is not linear. The key is learning the proper steps to forge your own unique path.
Roger Barton has edited and worked on some of the most iconic films of a generation such as Armageddon, Pearl Harbor, Titanic, World War Z, Terminator: Genesis, and the last five ‘Transformers’ films (this is just the ‘short’ list). He has lived many long days in the cutting room with directors such as James Cameron, Michael Bay, George Lucas, Joe Carnahan, and more.
