Building An Oscar-Winning Career…Without Sacrificing Your Values | with Paul Rogers

About Episode

My guest today is Paul Rogers who is an award-winning film editor. His work on Everything, Everywhere All At Once recently won him an Oscar. But the epicenter of our conversation today is the speech he gave backstage after the awards:

“There’s a problem in our industry that the more you kill yourself for a movie, the braver you are and that’s bullsh*t. We can do our jobs and we can live our lives and the more fully we are able to live our lives and the more humanely we treat ourselves and the people around us the better we can do our jobs.”

If you’ve been a long time listener to my podcast, no doubt that you’ll recognize this as something that I’ve been advocating for years already. What’s interesting is that Paul did not plan on saying this in his speech, but instead, it came out of nowhere while trying to refocus from all the awards commotion. My intuition tells me that it’s deeply connected to his values as a film editor, as a human being and how he defines work-life balance.

In this conversation, we talk about boundaries, what type of projects he would do and why, and how winning an Oscar has changed his life.

Transcript

Zack Arnold: I'm here today with Oscar-winning Editor Paul Rogers, who one could say is best known for cutting Everything Everywhere All at Once. However, for the sake of today's conversation, Paul is quite possibly much better known for not just winning the Oscar, but also for the speech that he gave backstage afterwards, which is the inspiration for today's conversation. So on that note, Paul, we've already talked about this a little bit offline. But I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to be here today. And boy, has it been a long time coming. So thank you for sharing all of your wisdom and your life experience with us.

Paul Rogers: Well, I appreciate your patience. And you know, I needed a few months to just recover mentally, psychologically.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and we're gonna talk a lot about that today, that's probably going to be the epicenter of today's conversation. So to frame it to give everybody a little bit of a spoiler alert upfront, if you found this conversation, thinking you're going to learn anything about the creative choices, or the creative process for everything everywhere all at once. This is not the conversation that you are looking for. This is not the place I'm going to make sure I have links to all of the great conversations you've had with art of the cutter, the rough cut, like you've got a lot of really great conversations about the process. And in in some of those, there's just been these like little sidebars or tangents about the work life balance process. And as soon as I heard one of those, I'm like that. That's the whole conversation. For me. That's what I've been talking about for years and years and years. And I remember the the meme going around is either the next day or the day after of kind of that that subsection of your speech behind the scenes. And as soon as I saw that, I had I think 15 People sent it to me the same day, like have you seen this? Have you seen this? Have you seen this? Like yes, actually, that's right, because that's what I talk about all day, every day. And it was like, Finally, somebody is at the highest level on the stage in front of the spotlight saying the exact same thing. So where I want to start, I'm just going to kind of quote that little meme. That's where I want to begin the conversation. And then we can take it from a multitude of different angles. But the place that I want to start is here's the kind of the little subset of your quote, and you said, there's a problem in our industry that the more you kill yourself for a movie, The braver you are, and that is bullshit. We can do our jobs, and we can live our lives. And the more fully we are able to live our lives and the more humanely we treat ourselves and the people around us, the better that we can do our jobs. So as that framing the start of the conversation, what I'm actually curious about is how have things been how things been since the night you said that and becoming literally a quote unquote, overnight success story, and how things have changed?

Paul Rogers: Well, I guess it depends on what aspect of my life you're referring to, I mean, it's changed a lot. But also comfortingly, it hasn't changed a lot, you know, my work is still my work. And I saw the same struggles and the same successes and and I still find the same joy in it. There was definitely a period afterwards where there's a pressure that you feel to capitalize on whatever kind of exposure you have in the moment. And, you know, the, the exposure of the Oscars is, I don't think I was even quite prepared, because so you go through this kind of couple of maybe three, four months of various award shows, and some of them are small, some of them are big. The BAFTA is in London are basically the, the British American, or sorry, the British Academy Awards. And so I thought, you know, I, I've kind of been through this, I know what it what it feels like, and then the week or two after the Oscars was was completely overwhelming. And really difficult, actually, to have that kind of exposure and to feel exposed and vulnerable in that way. And but, you know, I think in some ways, it's been really nice, how quickly all of that goes away. I noticed like there's the news cycle has maybe three to four days, maybe a week at the most and then they just kind of move on. And that happened to me that was like an intense week after and I just kind of went to hiding I turned my phone on Do Not Disturb. I just stayed home I didn't work and it was still just this onslaught. And then a week later it was like nothing had ever happened. And you know, I have my family back and Alabama's like, Are you kidding recognized on the street and I'm like, No, one recognizes me and no one cares. Even if they do they're like, Hey, cool, great. Nice to meet you. Well, you know, it's not it's not like these famous actors or actresses or even the directors out there. So that's been great and and really, really nice and I can just kind of get back to normal get back to my family. One thing that it has forced me to do, you know, I wasn't planning on saying anything about work life balance. If so, if you when you go up on stage and give your speech they they start just kind of shoving you around to different fun He says backstage, and one of the places they shove you is just like into this room with 5060 people sitting at tables with little numbers, and they hold them up. And I had no idea what I was going into. And so I went to that back room not knowing that it was being video recorded. And they started asking me questions. And I thought, you know, this is like a small thing for these little tiny outlets, and nobody will ever see or hear this. So it really surprised me when that went kind of viral for the small amount that it did a small amount of time that it did. And then yeah, I don't even remember what the question was. But I think I was in a mode where I was feeling so burnt out by just the awards process. And I was trying so hard to refocus on work life balance, that it just kind of came out. And so it's what it did was it forced me to, once I had said that out loud, that kind of became my reputation. So that jobs that I've taken since it's much easier for me now to be like, I don't work nights and weekends. These are my boundaries. And, you know, I, that is hard to do in this industry, in particular, because I made my name working nights and weekends. I also know that sometimes those late nights are really productive. And sometimes those weekends are really productive. Because you you get into a groove. And it's hard to interrupt that. It's so what it's given me more so than having an extremely rigid boundaries is the ability to pick and choose when I want to push myself and those ways versus having that dictated to me, and feeling helpless, and not having any control over whether or not I say, You know what, I'm on a roll today I want to work, I'm going to stick it out and work the night, you know. So it's forced me to also transfer that to the people that work around me, it's not forced me, it's allowed me to it's given me the gift of saying my assistant editor doesn't do that, you know, and I'm not great at that yet. I'm trying to protect those around me even more. But, but yeah, that's those are some of the changes.

Zack Arnold: For me boundaries is a really, really important subject to dive into. And I want to dive into that deeper. And I'm gonna put a pin in it for the second because I want to go I want to go a little bit backwards. Before we go forwards. There's two areas that I want to go into the first of which is understanding a little bit more about your journey and how you got to the point where you essentially won an Oscar for what's not technically your first feature. But for all intents and purposes, a lot of people in the media say, Oh, he went for his first movie. And then I want to talk a little bit more about what it means to have achieved the success that you did so early. So people really understand it. And when they're setting their career goals, they realize that it might not be the be all end all that they think it is. Well let's start from a very, very, you know, unassuming upbringing, where you would never think well, it's inevitable that Paul is, of course, going to be working in Hollywood and won an Oscar. Right. So let's talk a little bit more about the origin story.

Paul Rogers: Okay, so you may just like from the beginning, beginning?

Zack Arnold: Yeah. I mean, I don't know how your parents met or anything. But yeah. But yeah, like there's, I think the there's a word that I have used for years. And it's way that people used to describe me, whenever somebody would look at my resume, they're like, your career makes no sense. It's very scattershot. And you're very much in that category. And I want people to understand how that can be of tremendous value. Because we think that Well, I have to be so specialized, and I have to do one thing, but there's tremendous value and diversification of using your skills in different areas. So on the surface, let somebody could not plot a course and say, Oh, of course, it makes sense that Paul won an Oscar. So I want them to better understand the origin story and the value of how it got you into the place that you won the Oscar. Yeah.

Paul Rogers: Yeah. I mean, so I grew up with a mother who's an artist, she's a photographer. My father's a lawyer, they split when I was young. So I was always exposed to our photography, very specifically, she had a great community of artists and photographers around her, she shared a studio with a couple of really great women who were artists. And I, you know, my dad is a lawyer. So he's kind of a storyteller of sorts, and in terms of his job is to craft some kind of compelling narrative to win over a jury, even if it doesn't go in front of a jury. That's still kind of a part of the process. So, you know, going into college, like, you know, in high school, I guess I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do. That had one side of me that said, I want to be a park ranger, because I've done this incredible camping trip called Wilderness ventures for six weeks the summer before and then I was also a I found this guy in my class that would, instead of writing a book report, he would make a movie but his camcorder. And it seemed like such a fun way to not do work. And so we would, we would do that. And he would get a, you know, he would make like a mafia movie, even though we're supposed to be writing a book report on some dry book. But because he put so much effort in and they were so well done, he would still get good grades. So I started kind of tagging along and helping with those. And I realized like, this was the most fun and most engaged that I had been ever in any kind of process. And in my process, I guess I mean, something that required actual focus and work and time, for the most part. Unless it was something you know, one of my strange hobbies like skateboarding or breakdancing. I couldn't do that for anything. So I, you know, I kind of pitched it to my dad, and my mom was like, what if I went to school for film? And my mom, of course, was like, hell, yeah, you're an artist. You know, my dad just asked me, Do you think you can support a family with a film degree? And I had no clue. But of course, I said, Yeah, of course, said sure, go for it. And I was kind of surprised. But I found a little school through a college advisor called College of Santa Fe, in New Mexico went out there, it was really small, under 1000, undergrad students, I think, and just dove in, and got really lucky, it was a strange school, and you have to do everything. And you know, you have to, we had to cut on film. So I cut on on a Steenbeck was the first short film I cut. Before we were allowed to use Final Cut, which was the standard those days, before we were allowed to check out a video camera. We had to shoot on 16 and edit on 16. And that became like, I just realized through that process that I was like, that was the most fun part of the process for me. And yeah, just kind of like the school flew by for me, I met my wife out there, we moved to Brazil for a little bit and back to Birmingham. So just, you know, see how go, stayed there for seven years on accident really was expecting to move to a bigger market. And just like, you know, bought a house when we were 24 got a dog. Got our 401k going, we're just like ready to ride it out, you know, until old age. And I saw a short film by director Niccolo Joseph called until the quiet comes, went home and told my wife like I think I have to quit my job. I think I have to move to LA and find these people. And that's that's what I ended up doing. And came out here really with the focus to be an editor and never really had the desire to direct but always had the ability to like jump in and help where where needed. Because back then it was a lot of you know, people getting their start out here dragging music videos or doing a kid's camp and you're just kind of like running around and trying to do you know, anything that can help. But it was really focused on editing and met some great guys named Daniels at a roller rink, started making stuff with them and then snowball, Snowball snowball, you get everything everywhere all at once.

Zack Arnold: You just yadda yadda at all the best parts. So many so many areas that I want to go into it. This is a really, really great start. Here's the first thing that I want to zoom into is when you said that I was just planning on writing it out, right? You found a ladder, you grabbed the bottom rung, you had 401k You had your house, you were all set, and you were going to climb to the top. And that was it. You're going to write it out to old age, right? That's the old model. That's what we're taught. We're supposed to do it that way, right? And then you saw this music video. And you said, I have to quit my job. And I have to find these people. There's a big difference between that looks cool. I wish I could do that. And let's sell the house. Let's quit our jobs. Let's move to LA and let's do it. How did you bridge that gap? Because there are so many people that see their version of that music video. They have that moment whether it's a TV show, whether it's a trailer, whatever it might be, how cool would it be to do that someday, but then they never actually do it. What was the difference between that looks cool, and this is what we're gonna do? Well, like how did you how did you listen to your intuition and overcome all of those fears?

Paul Rogers: Yeah, I think it's a variety of factors. I mean, I can't discount the the incredible privilege that I had and that I had no college debt. I received some scholarships and some grants to go to college and then my father paid for about half of my tuition. So that's huge. I had a wife with a full time job who said go and I will keep working gain, just in case it doesn't work out. And, and I'm a white guy. And so I could walk into I literally was just cold walking into production companies and saying, hey, I want to work here, I want to be an intern. And all the other interns were, you know, film is killing white dudes, we always kind of joke, it's like white guys with beards like me, you know, a beard. And so I fit in and, and so those things, I can't just count and just say, Oh, you just got to be brave and go for it and dive in. But no parachute. Like I had those three huge parachutes behind me. And I had a little bit of savings. Because I didn't have any college debt, I was able to save some money up by through the the years of working at my other job. So those were huge, because the the fear of failure wasn't a fear of complete failure, it was a fear of coming back to my beautiful wife and beautiful home in Alabama with my tail tucked between my legs, which is not that big of a deal. In the in the big picture. And in general, I just like I think I reached a point where I, that that film, until the quiet comes, made me realize why I had gotten into art and why I had gotten into film in the first place, which is to create something that can move people on a level that is indescribable in any other art form. It's not the same as best, you know. And I've been moved by beautiful photographs and beautiful music and beautiful writing, but never the same way that I've been moved by film by the moving image. And it demonstrated that power so potently that, it was hard for me to ignore that I wasn't doing that at the moment. And I loved the work I was doing, but I wasn't, I wasn't putting everything into it. And I had speaking of work life balance, like I worked 10 to five. And I took an hour hour and a half lunch anchors hours and minutes away from my house. And it was great. I was had the best work life balance I've ever had. But I wasn't happy. I wasn't happy just having the work life balance I needed. The kind of meaning of work and the meaning of life to also be balanced. And then they were they were out of whack at that point.

Zack Arnold: So it sounds like you were in a place that I think a lot of people end up which is that you were very comfortable. And what you discovered is that there's a lot missing from comfort. And you decided I wanted to be as uncomfortable as humanly possible because you were chasing meaning you were chasing something that was more your calling and the work that you really wanted to do. Yeah, exactly. So what one of the things that I know that you mentioned in I don't remember specifically which interview but this idea that working in Alabama in public TV taught you that you want to do work that does good for the world. So I wrote I really want to start breaking I want to break down surely work life balance, like this is so much more than just what's the career path? Who did you meet? How did you get in the room? How did you get your Oscar, there's so much so many deeper layers. So talk to me about finding meaning in your work.

Paul Rogers: Yeah, I got lucky. And I the first job I got out of school was as an editor for public television. I was surprised that I got it. You know, I had no experience. But I don't think there were a lot of people walking around Birmingham in those days with film degrees. And so when the job came up, I wasn't passionate about public television and admission on public television. But I was passionate about filmmaking about editing. And, and so you know, I was so excited. And I dove in and I, you know, one of the first things I learned there was like this is mission based filmmaking. Our mission is to educate our mission is to educate fairly and in a balanced way and to provide a public service. And that was eye opening. For me, I didn't even know that was what public television was about. I just knew it was where Sesame Street was. And and, you know, some of the funny like old jazz shows would show there. And you know, and learning that it's completely, you know, basically completely publicly funded with some funding from the state. So that taught me that when you have a reason to do something, or when you have a reason to make something that's outside of make money and make it cool and get some cred and a reputation for yourself. That it's incredibly rewarding. You know, the stories that we were telling Alabama has like a crazy and varied history, some of it really interesting and gray, some of it really terrible and we were trying to tell all of that out I'm through documentary and it was challenging, it was hard it was could be heartbreaking, it could be so cool to discover some of the good parts of our state. So sobering to discover really some of the dive deeper into the history. And I loved it. And I love the people I worked with. And that kind of work attracts a certain type of person. So when I came to LA, I kind of reset myself and just said, I want to do cool work, I want to make stuff that people watch that's, that's popular. That's funny that you know, and, and I want to make some money. And I did some really fun stuff. And and I slowly started realizing that I would have drifted a little bit far away from like, doing the type of work that I could be 100% proud of. And that, when that really came to a head, for me, it was I was working on a music video. And I remember, I was so excited. It was like these big artists. And I didn't ask to listen to the song I just said, Of course, I'll do it. Like, let's get started. And when I got the song, I started, I got the footage for the video, I realized like it was just kind of gross, it was a gross message. It was about like, trading sexual favors for money. I was just like, God, I don't think that I don't want my teenage little sister to Google me. And for this to come up because it was going to be it was a popular song and it was going to be popular and and I just didn't want that to happen. And so I said, Look, I'm gonna finish the video, I don't want my name anywhere near this thing. I don't want to put it on my reel, I don't want you to put it in the credits. And it has nothing to do with how I feel about you and your talents. As a director or the production company, I just think that the message of the song is, is terrible. And that woke me up to saying, okay, maybe I can be more discerning about what I'm doing and, and who I'm doing it with and why I'm doing it. And, and it's not 100% of the time, I mean, you know, we have, I'm a partner in a company called parallax. And we have to, we have not just bills to pay, but we have employees that depend on the company, and we need to do work that pays their salaries. So you know, but we do have our standards, and we don't take work that we feel like it's actively contributing to the world in a negative way. And we seek out work that is positive for the world. And, and, you know, we've definitely missed opportunities and Miss jobs and things that have been big, but we've never regretted it, because there's a very clear line about what we're trying to do. And we're not turning stuff down arbitrary labor, there's a reason in that having a strong, you know, we talked about boundaries, having these even these boundaries about what type of work you will take and what type of work you won't take. Is it really freeing to never live in a place of regret and looking backwards and saying should I have done that, you know, it's it becomes fairly cut and dry in a nice way.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and in order for all those things to happen, whether it's knowing the work that you should or shouldn't take, knowing how to set a boundary when you shouldn't, when it's worth it. To do the nights and weekends. I feel like one of the most important things you need to be in touch with which is the polar opposite of how things work in this industry. It's very clear that you're in touch with your values. You have a sense of these what my values are, these are the lines that I'm not willing to cross. And it's I had the weirdest flashback when you were telling the story about the music video, because one of my biggest existential crises in this industry was very similar to yours, where I was working on Empire season two and I spent my entire day going through the role of strippers in a strip club with one of the main characters getting drunk in a strip club. And basically all of them fawning all over him in this music video saying do it for the gram, do it for the grind still to this day, cannot get that thing out of my head, because I just looked at the dailies and I just stopped. I'm like, What the hell am I doing? Like, what am I doing? Right? And it's no coincidence that two weeks later, I left. The only job I've ever left. I said this, this is it. This was the number one show on television. It was literally the number one show on network television at the time. And I said this is so in misalignment with who I am and the stories that I want to tell and I just felt it in my gut. Like driving home at night I would feel it driving to the job in the morning I would feel that I'm like, This is not who I am. And I've reached what most people thought it was the pinnacle of my career, but at the same time emotionally just at rock bottom. And it sounds like you had a similar experience.

Paul Rogers: Well I think it's important to realize that those boundaries and those Those lines are different for everybody. And that just because you that, that was not what you wanted that story that you want to tell doesn't mean that someone else could could find a reason to say, look, this is a commentary on this lifestyle that I felt like it was worthwhile. And that was how I felt about what I was doing, too. I'm not, you know, I don't, I didn't want to pass judgment on the people around me who are making the thing, I just didn't want to be a part of it, you know, I just didn't want to go to the party that they were invited me to, and that's fine. And they can have the party, it's hard to just set it for me, it was hard to, to just land in LA, hungry for work. And be saying, like, here's the exact type of work I want to be doing. And here are the values that I have. And here's what I'm gonna turn on Who here's what I'm gonna take, it was hard for me, but I think I should have done that. And in some ways, like you got it, you know, the pay your dues thing is real, like, you've got to just get some work under your belt. And but if you can be a little bit discerning, I think it helps, because what I've noticed is when I'm hiring people, now, I do some, in some ways, take into account the type of work they've been doing, not just the quality of work that they've been doing. And I think it's like, meeting a friend or being able to tell that someone has just a similar sensibility and a similar outlook on life. And those are the people I want to work with. Because the work that we do, especially as editors is like really sensitive. You know, we're all kind of really sensitive people, I think editors, and emotional and easily, you know, easily brought down by what we're working on are easily excited about what we're working on. And so, if I'm going to trust someone to sensitively treat, especially the type of work that I tend to be drawn to, and then I tend to work on, if I'm going to trust someone to sensitively treat the subject matter that I feel like is really important, then I need, I need to know that their outlook, and their values are somewhat similar. Now, that being said, I think it's really valuable to work with a diverse group of outlooks and a geographic diverse group of people. So I do recognize that sometimes my values are different than someone else's values, but I still can find a way to respect and, and uplift those people as well. Because just because their values are different than mine doesn't mean they're wrong, right. And it can be really valuable to have someone in there that's challenging you, because one of the things that happens in this work, and when you're trying to kind of like, get your workflow down and get the you know, and things start moving, and you're trying to kind of optimize the way that you do things and move through projects is you start getting into these patterns. Okay, this is the way I do things, because it worked on the last project. So I'm gonna do it on this project, and I'm just going to do it. And then I can just like, do four things at once. And what you do is you don't realize that those patterns are, are one, they're limiting you creatively, but two, they're also like, they're solidifying these values that should be I think, you know, in some ways, I think our value should be able to shift and grow as our life experience shifts and grows as new input comes in. And as we get older, as we have more experiences, as we meet more people, we should be able to say, Wait, I need to reevaluate the way that I've been feeling and thinking about this thing. And, and maybe form a new opinion about it, and maybe, maybe shift this value into a place that's more in line with, with my heart, or that's more in line with, you know, with the world, you know, so that's those are, those are some kind of caveats that I have about, like, only making decisions based on my values is that as much as it might, we might want to think that our value should always stay the same and rock solid. Like that's just not I don't think that's reality.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I agree. I mean, values are going to be ever changing. I think that there are some core values that they're just not going to change, like an example would be from everything that you're saying, I don't think I'm ever going to convince you that you need to change the value that you believe diverse voices are important. And this is a really important one to bring up. Because this was another part of your speech that kind of went out there. But it wasn't nearly as big as the work life balance was the need for other diverse voices. And I say this because anybody coming into the beginning of today's conversation without any context, they're like, well, he's really playing that white guy with a beard card. We need to make it very, very clear how much you've talked about the value of bringing in diverse voices and how you don't believe everybody standing up on the stage holding the gold statue should look like you you literally said as much. So what would you agree that there's probably no amount of changing your belief or your the the fact that you value diverse voices? That to me seems it's a core value embedded in you or treating people with respect, that's a core value. But then there are other values that can certainly change as you're exposed to more diverse experiences.

Paul Rogers: Yeah, yeah. I think that's true. There's, you know, kindness and This kindness is not a value that I think I'm going to change, you know. But yeah, I think you're right. And I do think, you know, as much as like, it's literally it is literally the least thing, the least that I can do. And I'm saying this in a way of like, it's not, it doesn't, it wasn't much for me to say, Hey, did you guys all notice that it's all white guys winning most of these awards. And that didn't that didn't feel like it was going to be some viral moment, it felt more like something we all already understood. So it surprised me that that went viral. And it also was like, you know, embarrassing, but I just didn't, it was like, literally the least effort I could have put forward to doing anything. It's just to point that out. Because, you know, there's like, so much more important work to be done. And and then people who are doing so much more for that versus just like spouting some stuff off into a microphone while they're holding a statue. You know what I mean?

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and it's very clear that you are you and I are on the same page, that there's an immense value in bringing in a lot more diverse voices. And just the it really surprised me at just the more that I learned about the politics of the industry and the culture of the industry, it just seemed like a no brainer. It's like, why wouldn't we want more diverse voices? We're storytellers, right? You want to bring in female voices and minority voices, it just seems like a dull moment. But then you understand how the industry and so on trend is so entrenched in the way that it is, it really kind of blew me away that, like you said, there's so much more work to be done. And there are a lot of people that are doing that work. And you know, like you said, it's like there is no one that goes viral, like what, what?

Paul Rogers: It's not just in the industry, it goes back to the education systems, the type of people that are graduating that are able to graduate with a film degree, because graduating with a film degree is a huge risk. It's not graduating with a degree in business or something that's a little bit more dependable that you can find good work. And the people who are able to take those risks are the people who are incredibly financially stable and supported by their families and have been their whole lives and will be for the rest of their lives. And so it becomes this thing where it is the majority of like I said, when I got my internship, it was like all guys, that look like me, all of us, we you know, we could people will confuse our names all the time. It happens everywhere. And so that's I think it's not just like an industry problem. It's like a more of a society cultural problem. And, yeah, it's just it's such a bigger issue than filmmakers are all white dudes, it's kind of just like the leaders of, of industry, in general, in America tend to be white guys, because we're allowed and supported and encouraged to take risks without much of a consequence. If we fail, you know, in fact, it's just seen as like, masculine to do that. As as, like, that's a really great trait to fail. And that's not the same for my wife growing up. You know, it's not the same for other people, you know, throughout the country.

Zack Arnold: So I'm curious, given all of this, let's rewind, let's go back to you've got your 10 to five job. Very comfortable 401k, you see the same music video, but you don't have all your parachutes. What would you have done then? If you were really depending on that paycheck, and you didn't have the the advantages that you talked about?

Paul Rogers: Yeah, then I probably would have just stuck it out. And I don't think I would be unhappy if I stuck it out. Honestly, I think I was really happy. And I love my life. And I love my friends and I was near my family. And you know, I've had these moments, even recently, going back home and being with my family is there, you know, getting older and thinking like, should I have should I have done that? Should have just stayed here? And like, how much closer? Would I be with my family? What would my children's relationship be with their grandparents and great grandparents that they're missing out on because I felt the need to go do this thing for myself really? You know, basically 100% selfishly I want to express this part of myself. And I'm going to try and be with me wife. And yeah, so there's there's always these periods of wandering, despite the kind of like, success that I've had out here. If it was the right choice, in a more big picture, holistic way for me and my family and the people around me.

Zack Arnold: It's really interesting. You bring this up, because I didn't know if we were gonna get to this or not, but I stumbled upon a quote recently that really hit me deep and I think this is the perfect place to use it. It's been sitting around forever. I'm like, What am I gonna be able to bring this up? This is the exact moment. It's a quote from Matt Damon from the night that he won his Oscar winner for Goodwill. haunting aged 27. Right. So he wins the Oscar, he goes home after all the craziness that you experienced, he sat down on the sofa. And this was the thought that he had. And I want to get your thoughts on this to somebody, there are a few that can empathize with this, you can empathize with it, right? So holding the Oscar races, imagine chasing this and not getting it. And finally getting to your 80s or 90s, with all of life behind you and realizing what an unbelievable waste of life that it was. Because it can't fill you up. If that's a hole that you have, this thing isn't going to fill it. Yeah, having now won it and thinking about what life is like going back home. Now that you can say I'm an Oscar winner. What are your first thoughts listening to that quote?

Paul Rogers: Yeah, I mean, it definitely resonates. I think that it? I can't, you know, it's, it's interesting that you say that, because I was very much not chasing it. And not because I was too cool for it. But because it was just so beyond the realm of possibility in my head for where my career was gone. And the type of work that I was interested in. That wouldn't happened. It was so unexpected and strange. And I hadn't built it up at all. So, you know, people will ask me, like, why are you still calm? And, and it's because I had never imagined myself on the stage. So I had nothing to try to live up to. And I had no feeling of this is the moment you've been waiting for. I just had the feeling of like, I can't believe why, you know, there's all these other people that deserved it. So yeah, I can't imagine chasing that for my whole life and not getting it. And because you do realize that, like it's sitting, you know, it's the statue sitting over there. I, I, no one looks at it, or cares. In my family, like my, you know, my son was like, I was like, I want to, I want to I went to a fancy office party. And I want to work award because people think that I did a good job of work. And they gave me like a statue of a guy. He was like, cool, you know, to the people that matter to you, it doesn't matter. And the people that it does matter to just don't know you. It's not that they're bad people thinking that it's really important. But but it just so fundamentally doesn't change a thing about who you are, and how happy you are. And the relationships that you have just fundamentally does not change a single thing about that. That I can't like, like you said, I can't imagine chasing that for your whole life.

Zack Arnold: What I think is important to double down on is that it didn't change anything at all for you. However, I think it does change a lot of people and usually not for the good. It's usually for the worse. And I just go back to I think the reason that you had this reaction is you're so clear on who you are, you know, your values, you know that you're a mission based filmmaker. And this is it's this thing that happened. And sure I'm you know, a lot of good things are probably come from it. A lot of craziness has come from it. But I would venture to guess not knowing you at all other than the 15 minutes that we've talked to each other. The reason you're saying the Oscar didn't change anything is because you already knew who you were.

Paul Rogers: That could be true. I mean, I'm definitely still working on the

Zack Arnold: Aren't we all? I mean, this is a work in progress for all of us myself.

Paul Rogers: Yeah. But I do think also, you know, one of the surprising things that happened through everything was there's this kind of like, net worth of love in your life, right that you like, let in that you give out, right? And it's this big bubble around you. And I think the expectation is when something like this happens that that bubble increases because there's more love coming in from the world, right? And so the bubble just gets bigger, and you feel it. And what happens to me, and I'm not sure if this is what happens to everybody. But what happened to me was it actually shrank strangely, because a lot of the attention that I started to get and the people that were reaching out to I hadn't heard from and so long, some of it was very real, like, hey, haven't talked to in years. So excited for you, I just wanted to give you good vibes and warm wishes. And I love that stuff. And some of it's like, Hey, we should hang out, we should totally I haven't talked to you in seven years. But now that you're on TV, like we should totally hang out. Also, I'm looking for work. And you know, and that kind of stuff starts to you start to put walls up and fences up. And so what happens when you start to put those walls and fences up is that some of those real some of that real love that's coming in also gets blocked because you're scared you don't want to let the wrong ones in. And so I started finding myself suspicious of people that I shouldn't be suspicious of, in terms of what were their intentions, do they want some because what happens in those four or five months is that 90% of the people who contact you want something and I don't just mean friends and acquaintances I mean, you know, just professionally. They want an interview. They want a quote, they want a picture. They want this they want that they want to put you in touch with their kid who just graduated homeschool, because they need a job. And you know, and I understand all of that. And all these people, the journalists, they have their their jobs, they're trying to do their jobs. But it took a minute for me to realize, and with the help of my homelessness, Katie just a bottle that he becomes, I don't have to do any of that. It's not for me, unless my goal is to raise my visibility, and to raise my value and in the quote unquote, market, then I don't have to do any of it. It's just me doing favors for people, the all the interviews, and some of them, you know, early on, I was doing all the interviews, because I wanted to hype up the movie, because I was just worried. You know, we were all like, we want people to watch the movie. What if no one watches the movie? What if no one goes to see it? And I wanted to also shout out everybody who have worked with me. And then like, once I felt like I had done that, it gets to a point where you just think to yourself, Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this 40 As interview? If it's not, if I don't feel the need to increase my visibility, then what's the point? And so, you know, Katie gave me the like, strength to just say no to everything, basically. And, you know, I think I did four or five interviews, and in the month or two thing after the Oscars versus the 60, that, that were presented, you know, so anyways, all that to say is that I found myself shrinking into myself as a form of protection. And I regret that, you know, but I also realized that it was necessary for me to mentally and emotionally survive that period of time of my life.

Zack Arnold: And that just comes back to the foundation of what we're talking about, which is learning how to set boundaries, right? Yeah. And I want to talk about that a little bit further, this idea of setting boundaries, and I want to do it in a slightly different context. Because I think this will apply to the choices that you've made in your career, my guess is that it applies to how you build your team and who you hire. And it applies to setting boundaries. And it's this idea of following your intuition. And listening to your gut. This is something that I've talked about on the show a lot lately, actually talking to like some of the world's experts and scientists to actually understand what does it mean to have a gut feeling? Where does it come from? How does the mind connected to the body? Like from a physiological perspective, you don't need to understand any of that. But I feel like just for the experience of making this film alone, because it's very existential, and goes, you know, so deep and just understanding who we are in our existence. I'm curious, if you see the same thread that I do that through your entire career, the choices that you've made, the people you surround yourself with, and the boundaries you set, how much do you feel that following gut instinct as a part of this?

Paul Rogers: It's actually it's, I think about this a lot, because I feel like in my work, specifically, a big part of what I learned how to do, when I came out here was kind of like tuning the instrument, that is the gut feeling just like having that tune to a place where you recognize it, and then can act on it. I think I learned a lot of that from Luke Lynch, who was the editor of that film that I watched that got me to move out here. So when I watched that short film, I looked him up, found him, came out, met with him. And now and he started a company called parallax. And now that's the company that I'm a part of. And he's he basically mentored me in a way of, of just knowing when something is good, and knowing when something's bad, knowing what's working, what's not working, not just in filmmaking, but also in a way of just ways of working ways of carrying yourself as a professional ways of making decisions. If someone was just giving bad vibes on the team, they've not working with them, you know, of recognizing when someone has good vibes through trial and error. I mean, I think he and I both have made good decisions and bad decisions throughout the way. But I do think that a big part of my work is just being like knowing trusting my gut, to say, This is good. And this is working, or this is not good. And this is working. I'm just gonna keep experimenting until I find a way to make it feel right in my body. And it is kind of like a weird body feeling that you get. Yeah, so I do think that the gut, you know, it's like, when I watched that film, I was doing a panel thing. And they asked me, like, what was it about that film that moved you so much, but until the quiet comes? And I was like, I have never even tried to explain that. And I don't know if I can. It gets so beyond words to me that it's like, hanging out. What would you even say? And the whole point of it was it was like, moved me in a way that that I couldn't with with words. So all that being said, I think from the very beginning, what brought me out here to LA was just this gut feeling of like that. That's what I want and that's what I need. And these are the people that I want to surround myself with. Had it paid off Are they well, one of the nice things about it is I work with these People know, and intimately daily, and I never like doubt their intentions ever. All the decisions that we make, and that they make, like, even if I disagree with a particular decision, I don't doubt the intention behind it. You know, I just trust these people. And that's like, I can't imagine going through this, specifically this industry, but any industry just surrounded with people who you're constantly second guessing. And, and worrying if they're a threat to your survival professionally, or personally, and what are their intentions like, I just can't imagine doing that sounds exhausting, there's already so much this exhausting about my work in my life that not having to worry about that is, is bliss.

Zack Arnold: Yeah. And you live in a very, very small community, where that isn't a problem, because the vast majority of the entire industry, that's exactly what it is, right? It's all about, I'm competing with you, your intent is the you're trying to get ahead of me. And you know, we chat at the lunchroom table, and we enjoy each other's company and talk about the movies that we enjoy. But secretly, it's like they're trying to take my job, they're trying to get the showrunners attention, or they're gonna get to directors next gig. And I'm not it's just, it's just it's like you said, it's so exhausting. And it's no wonder that everybody in our industry is either burned out, or they're burned out, and they don't know it, like there's red dye did a conversation with Greg McEwan, and one of the most like the all the mic drop moments I've ever heard, this one was just jaw dropping, he's like, there are two kinds of people in the world, those that are burned out, and those who know they're burned out. And I was like, like, if that doesn't just describe our industry, and it's so much more than just the hours, that's a big part, all the exploitation, that's a big part, but what you just said, it's exhausting the mental load constantly feeling like you're under threat. And it's not even that you're under threat for your job. I mean, that's a big part of it. But your ideas are constantly being attacked. Right?

Paul Rogers: It's true. Yeah, go ahead. No, you got it. But I do, I feel like there's there's just kind of a threat to the, to the, to your sense of self and your sense of value, and to your ego, which is, you know, we have to contend with, I think when we're doing anything, some of that can be mitigated through work on yourself, right through therapy, and just accepting that, like, my work, my value as a person is not directly represented by the work that I do, or the my value as a person is not directly represented by the work that I do being accepted by the people around me as good, quote, unquote, good. And I do like, I'm very competitive. And when I work with people, I am incredibly aware of the level of work that they're doing, and whether or not I feel as subjective as it is, I'm living up to the level that they are working at. But I think that that can be fun. If if it's good vibes, and there's trust builds, the next competition is like, at his best is killer is so fun to say, we're just constantly pushing each other in a healthy way, in a positive way of saying, Look, I, you know, I know I can do better than this, I don't know, you could do better than what you just showed me, like, get back in there. And let's, let's come back together in an hour and see what we can do. Because I've seen, you know, I can tell you didn't quite didn't quite nail that, you know, and they say the same thing to me, I love that. But like you said, like that, that threat to your sense of, of self is, is more destructive than the threat to your job, I think, because it carries through for the rest of your life. It can I mean, I have those moments in my memory bank, you know, of like, that time when I, I put myself out on a limb and I got destroyed for it professionally, where I thought something was great. And I put my all into it, and I got laughed at. So things don't go away. And you you can learn to to deal with them and process them but like they stick with you and and what it requires is you just be around people who are also looking out for you, you know, and it's not that hard to do. We all know when we're saying something that's gonna hurt somebody, we know it. Even the most clueless of us, we can feel it. And we just have to not sometimes we just we just do it accidentally and sometimes we do it on purpose, and we don't even know why we're doing it. We're like, I'm gonna put this person in their place. I don't know why I just said that. And I regret it and I can see that I hurt them and what you know, there's, there's no solution for that except for to go to them and say, Hey, I'm sorry, I said that. You know, I should have said in front of whoever said a period. You're super talented, you know, and I've had a couple of those moments that I've had to contend with like cheese what dark part of myself wanted me to say that to that person. You know? but you don't get a lot of that. Out here, you don't get a lot of the backpedaling in it. But I've had some really great ones like model to me from the top. I remember, I was working with a guy on a show and I was an intern in the show with he was the star of the show. And we're in the edit and, you know, we're trying to crack some jokes. And I said something like, he was like, telling me to do something. I was like, Yeah, but I you know, the joke is funny, because did you know XYZ? And he was like, I know what the joke is funny. Like, it's, I said, I, I wrote the joke, and you know, kind of like, walked out. And I was like, Okay, fair enough. And then like, five minutes later, he walked in, and he was like, hey, you know, I realized that I said that in a way that was like, pretty shitty, shouldn't have said that. Like, you know, I know, you're just doing your best, and you're working hard. And we're just thinking through this together. So I'm sorry about that. And I was like, one I didn't even think twice about ever to like that kind of modeling of females, it was really inspiring for me, because he didn't need to do that to the intern. He didn't need to do that. If you think about it in terms of life, but in the industry, he's not set up with the expectation to treat an intern like that, you know, that kind of stuff. I think I've been lucky to work on almost all my jobs in LA on almost all of them. I've had that kind of, of leadership from when I was a baby out here. You know?

Zack Arnold: Can you imagine the industry we'd work in if we changed one thing? And it was the people took responsibility for their words and their actions? How different would this industry be if we change just that, right?

Paul Rogers: I mean, I'm seeing like the people that I work with do Danna, Daniel, that has them to a tee, you know, I think the amount of like self aware, you know, I wonder if it has anything to do with just like, This generation of people not being afraid of therapy, and not being afraid of talking about their feelings, the way that our parents were afraid of those things. Because I have, I have been impressed. And even in the younger generations, like the amount of times that they will just, you know, firmly but gently and kindly bring up like, Hey, I think that this is a, this situation is not optimal, I think that you can be handling this better. And, you know, it takes them a second for me to not feel threatened by that, right? Because we're so used to like, just like, defense mode. And it's, but it's encouraging to me that, like the younger generations are able to do that. And they feel safe doing that. And they feel like they have the right to do that, you know.

Zack Arnold: So this is going to tap into where I want to go to next, this idea of our generation or coming generations being more open to understanding feelings in the mind and psychology, I want to go back to something you talked about a few minutes ago, which is that it's an it wasn't just a matter of I follow gut feelings. It was that you learned how to train your intuition. And one of my biggest pet peeves. And this is not just with editors, this is with people that do creative work, if they're on a panel, if they're in an interview, and somebody asks about the craft, and ultimately, it's 10 different variations of the same answer. I don't know. I just trusted my gut. It's like, but that's not helpful. Like, how do I actually cultivate it, and you're somebody that I it sounds like you've actually learned how to cultivate and improve your ability to feel the right things at the right time and into it. So how are you cultivating your intuition?

Paul Rogers: I mean, it's so that's such an interesting question. And I'm going to just stumble through an answer that I've never tried to get before, I do think a lot of it has to do with starting to become comfortable in a space of vulnerability. Meaning that you're you are willing to confidently, think confidently, but just put your ideas forward in a room. So it started off really simply right? When I was on a show called The Eric Andre show, I was an intern than I was an assistant and I became an editor, we would all sit around and watch cars together and react and talk about what we liked what we didn't like what we thought needed to be happening. As an intern, you're just you just soak it in, right? And you have these feelings, but you're afraid to put them forth, but they want them and the the the space in which that show was made was very open to input from anyone. And so there were times where I would say where I would have a feeling but I would think to myself, I think if I say this, that will be more in line with what didn't one of the directors or what Eric or one of the editors would actually think so I'm gonna say that thing instead. And inevitably, almost inevitably, whenever I was to that thing, it would be wrong, because I would have a gut feeling that I was working against. And so it took me doing that a lot and then starting to say I'm just gonna say the thing that I feel Even though I might not know how to put it, I might be totally off base. But at least I'm going to just give it a shot and see like, because the other stuff I'm doing isn't working and me trying to say things that I think other people will agree with, is not working well for me. And so I just started spouting out, you know, within limits, not just constantly just saying the things that I thought the weird gut feelings that I thought like, oh, no, like, maybe if What if we did this. And it was met with like, even when they disagree with me, it was met with a such support in terms of just like, that's an interesting idea. And I found that more often than not, like, my ideas weren't that bad. Maybe they were unrefined. And maybe they were, you know, over simplified. Or maybe the solution that I was trying to pitch was wrong. But the problem that I was seeing was right, you know, that I started thinking, like, I guess my gut isn't so off. It's also went back to something that the director I worked with, told me once where I had spent days with this person trying to craft something that I thought that they would like in their style. And they were kind of like, kneeling over me at the computer one day watching something, and it was just bad, and it wasn't working. Because I was just trying to like, emulate their password. And they said, don't make something. You think I was like, just I just want you to make something that you like that you find interesting. And it doesn't, if I come and watch it, it doesn't matter. I just want you to do that for the next day. I did that. And when they came to Washington, they were like, Finally, yes, that's good. Now we're getting somewhere. And that these like, so you know, I did have a supportive environment of like, being able to being able to express myself and get into that vulnerable space, because every time you, you know, it's this industry is weird, because I guess it's every industry, but ideas are kind of a form of almost a currency, but just fuel. And so every time you put one of your ideas out there, like you're very vulnerable, then you're just gonna get like, it's like, you're opening yourself up, and you're just gonna get people stabbing you. If, if, if they think your idea is bad, then you're bad, and you're a bad person, and you should just go home, why did you even come out here in the first place, and maybe you shouldn't be an editor, and you should just go back being a park ranger, those are like the feelings.

Zack Arnold: That was very specific, I have a sense, you've heard that voice once.

Paul Rogers: And so if there's any way that I could express that was the, that was my experience and learning to trust my gut. And I think there's probably a million ways to do it. And there's hopefully a lot of people who've learned to do that earlier in life starts even back in like college, and we had to do our, you know, our critiques of other students work, at me trying to say things that I thought the professor would be impressed by versus me trying to say things that I thought might help the student, you know, they're different. And you have to just stop trying, trying to say things that will resonate with someone versus trying to say things that will push the work forward, or that will actually like, express, you know, scratch, some itch that you are trying to get to. And the work is all like, all we're trying to do in this job, and in any job is just do good work. You know, like, that's all really matters. As long as the work gets better. It doesn't really matter how many bad ideas that you do, and you start out as long as one of them is good and pushes it forward. You know, that's how I always try to think about it as like, when I sit down to Edit, I'm going to spend a day or two doing really bad work. And then all I got to do is like one big thing. And then okay, an hour step forward. And then 200, bad things. Another good thing, okay, now we're two steps forward, and just keep doing that. And hopefully, over time, trained myself to not do 200 bad things, but maybe 10 bad things. And then one good thing and maybe five bad things. And then one bad thing, you know,

Zack Arnold: One can say that's a pretty good metaphor for living your entire life outside of the timeline.

Paul Rogers: Yeah, I mean, hopefully not doing really bad things, and then one.

Zack Arnold: But as far as like, you know, making decisions and being the wrong one, and you know, learning from your mistakes, like you're not going to make every choice correctly. But the one component of this that I think is really important to really point out to people is that you're mentioning that you were able to develop your intuition by learning how to follow your gut instincts and share those ideas. But I think one of the most important factors here was that you worked with people that believe the best idea wins. Not everybody believes that. And for me, that's a very conscious conversation that I have in job interviews is I want to know what kind of people I'm dealing with. And I've always believed from the beginning of my career, that if I'm working on something, and as I'm sure you can attest to as a fellow editor, you get into this headspace of well, nobody He knows the material better than I do. I've watched all the dailies, and I know these are all the right choices. And earlier in my career, I would get stuck in that mindset. But then the the analogy that I've always used as let's say that I'm working late at night and my doors open, the janitor comes by with their cart, and they pop their head and they're like, that'd be better as a club close up instead of a wide shot, right? One mentality is Shut up, you're the janitor. The other mentality is, oh, shit, this wouldn't be better as a closer Thank you, right? And for me, if I'm not around people where the best idea wins, I don't feel that sense of trust, and I can't be vulnerable. And then it is about well, what do they want to hear just because I want to avoid a conflict. And I don't want to look stupid. And it sounds like you were surrounded by people that believe the best idea wins.

Paul Rogers: Yeah, and I think that that also is a product of, on some level, trusting my gut about who I want to be around, I found that 100% of the times that I've taken an opportunity, or job, because it checks some boxes, or it meets some arbitrary criteria of these people are successful, this is a big show, like you working on compiling. Maybe you did that, because it was it was the number one show on television. Every time I've done that it's not worked out. I don't I can't think of a single example where it has. And then all the times where I took the poorly paying job with a no name director, who I really vibed with it felt good about. It's been great. And it's and it's paid dividends, you know, even in a kind of material way, as far as like, Oh, what was what was successful. And all those times where I didn't take the average, where I did take the opportunity, because I was like this is like going to be you know, like, has all the makings of a success. It's they never panned out. And it's just, I feel like, it's teaching me that, like, if you're making something you don't believe in with people you don't trust, it's never it just the world's going to reject it. You know, it's just, if you make somebody believable people you trust, as small as it is like, the world will accept it, it might not be a giant blow up success. But like, that's work I can be proud of, and the people who see that work, and resonate with that work, and then reach out and connect with me. It's like there's a there's a certain that connection is strong, because I think that there's a mutual understanding of, of, it's like what I did when I reached out to Hello, Joseph, until a quiet comes, I was like, this work is important to me. And I know that I have a feeling that I can connect, you know, not just with the work, but with you and the people that you work with, you know, and that and I think that that mostly pans out, I've heard horror stories of that not people meeting their heroes and the creators who they thought were making the best work. And that was sad, and it breaks my heart. But I've managed to be pretty lucky in that. And I can't imagine I have, you know, I have a feeling it has to do with that gut thing of just

Zack Arnold: It has everything to do with that gut thing. I mean that I think that's, that's the core foundation of all of it. And coming back to kind of the central theme of today, I also think that a lot of your decision making in your intuition is against is again based on your values. Because if we looked at two different value systems, if the value system is that I want to tell stories that have a mission that have a voice that have an impact, you're going to make different decisions as opposed to I value success, I value image, I value material things. If those are your values, you're going to take the big shows, you're going to take the credits, the shows that check the boxes, like you said, but because you know who you are, and again, work in progress for all of us. But you have a pretty grounded sense of what your values are, it's easier to say, this just isn't a good fit. So like if we're adding to the here's the three step simple process to develop your intuition, it seems to me one that you're really in touch with is you know what your values are as a filmmaker and as a person.

Paul Rogers: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I definitely, like I know is the same was when you watch something, you know, it's just the feeling of like, this, this feels wrong to me. Being able to have like, we could do it with people, you know, we can do it so well, externally, I think of knowing what we like and what we don't like. I say that but then on the other hand, like I do know that a lot of my high school, like my high school years were me pretending to like stuff I didn't like, you know, the recall or where's that? I didn't want to wear that. Yeah, I think that we could do it externally. So well sometimes that like it's sometimes it feels funny that we care. It's hard for us to internalize that, you know.

Zack Arnold: The last thing that I want to go into which is it's a little bit of a tangent but not too much of a tangent but it's certainly the the topic du jour or you know of the year and this will be you know, equally is a applicable now, it will be in six months and probably even more applicable in five years. But it's understanding what separates us as humans, from technology and from the machines. Because this is a big topic of conversation with the emergence of artificial intelligence. And I've learned, like you have talked about that, whatever the ideas are, that you put out there, you just go with your gut and your intuition. And if the attention is good, then you want to do your best of those thoughts. And I've also learned that that can get you in really, really big trouble. So I've I basically have have swum into shark infested waters, talking about artificial intelligence. But what I truly believe, is that by and large, as creatives, there are certain things that make us human that separate us from the machines. And to me, one of them is intuition and gut instinct. So I'm curious from your position, I don't know how much you're following any of the the changes in technology or the industry or whatnot, I don't want to get into industry politics, but we're talking about the sea change that we're seeing as a global society, towards artificial intelligence. What are your thoughts about it? Given everything? We've talked about intuition, and, you know, what, what, what fears or you know, what lack of fears you might have going forward to this next major step in the creative process?

Paul Rogers: Yeah, it's hard for me to say, in an educated way, because I think I've been a little willfully ignorant of it. Because, you know, to be honest, I think there's a part of me that is scared of it all. But I will say that, one of the things I value in some of my most exciting moments creatively, with myself and with other people have been those very human experiences of, you know, someone comes into work, they had a rough day, their grandmother's sick, they got a bad phone call, and they sit down at their computer, and they need to get something out of their system, they need to express something that they don't know how to express. And so they make this really beautiful work. Or they see a really beautiful moment driving into work between, you know, a mother and daughter on the street, and that helps them rethink the way that they've been treating a scene or, or, or want to add something to a montage. And those moments, you know, I think are so delicate and divine. And here, like, you can't, you can't replicate them. And so when I say delicate, I mean so fleeting, like if you don't catch them person at the right moment, if I don't catch myself at the right moment, there have been times when I've been going through stuff at home, and I'll just have to go into the office for a couple hours in the evening and do some work. Because I have, I need to the best way that I know how to express myself sometimes just through my work. And I, you know, I look back on the stuff that I've done and be like, she said, You know, I can't, I can never get into that zone again. So I think that those are the moments of humanity that keep me excited. And another reason that I think it's important to work with diverse groups of people, that are also the reason why I think it's important to collaborate and not to just be in a silo. So that's kind of all I have to say about it. And I don't know how, you know, AI could replicate those things. I'm sure that AI can do some incredible work, I'm sure, the way that, you know, any kind of technology can and I just hope that like we can use it to further there's a chance that we can use it to further bring out our humanity right and, and use it to illustrate ideas that we just can't, I've never been able to execute before, but I just don't know how that's gonna play out. And I haven't educated myself enough to speak eloquently about it.

Zack Arnold: I think you spoke a lot more eloquently about it than you might think. Because I think what you identified is just the the lightning in a bottle of being human being, right, which is this idea that I can be in front of the timeline, telling the story on any given day, it could be in front of the blank page could be composing music, whatever it might be. But there's something about the magic of whatever I feel right now, because of my outside life experiences without me even realizing it, maybe I do or maybe I don't, it's subconsciously influencing my intuition and my gut instincts, and you're going to create a different emotion through your work than you might otherwise. That's impossible to replicate. You couldn't even replicate it, you know, like say, Well, I felt that way last week, I want to feel the same way this week. So I can make the same decisions. Even as as humans on a belief we can replicate that. So that just taps into something really deep, which is that the more that I learn about the technology, the less concerned I am in certain respects. And the more concerned I am in other respects, and I'm not going to go into any of that, because that's not the point of the conversation, but you pointed out something that to me is so eloquent and so human, which is just the miracle that it is to have that feeling for one given moment and apply to your work and had that emotion exist for eternity. So you're much more eloquent than you might have thought. Thank you. So having said that, I have one last question that kind of ties up where we started, which is this idea of doing everything we can to protect, I meant to say work life balance, because that's the way it's understood, I could have an entire full second part just about how we think the term work life balance is flawed. I'm not going to get into TED talk mode right now. But looking at the experience that you had with the Daniels on everything everywhere, all at once, and now post Oscar win. What have you learned about the challenges of setting boundaries and maintaining work life balance? Because I would assume it hasn't gotten any easier for you?

Paul Rogers: In some ways it has, because people listen to me now more, you know, like, it's just one of those like, society values and accolade. And so what if I stand less of a risk of losing a job because I won't work a weekend than I did before. So I'm on board and doing that. Protecting that time is easier in some ways, too. Because I have, you know, my family demands it, and not in a negative way. But they, they crave and demand time with me and that and so I don't it's and I'm not saying that this balance is just for people with families, because it's not, it's I wish I had done this when I was single and childless. But that pool, because the four or five months of award stuff was so I was so far away from family, both physically and mentally, that pull back has been really strong. And so it becomes like such an easy choice for me now. And such a guilt free choice for me. That being said, I think that what I need to work on next is protecting those, the people around me the people that work with me assistants and other editors, because as much as I will say, Hey, don't stay late, I might also leave at six and say, Hey, I need this expert to go out to the studio and not thinking through, like, that's a two hour process sometimes, and they added dinner at seven. And so I think that I you know, practicing what you preach in those ways is an important lesson for me to learn that I the the privileges that I'm getting, because of where I'm at right now. And because of my insistence on my own balance, don't automatically transfer down to the people around me just because I tell them not to, they still got to do what they got to do. And they in and the same rules sometimes don't apply. And the person that can protect them as is me. So that's something that I've been aware of in my sort of my own shortcomings recently. That being said, like I do, you know, it's easier for me to say, when I'm working, I'm working and when I'm not working, I'm not working, although I will say I'm obsessed with my job. And then that leads me to, to, it's fun for me to think about work when I'm not at work. You know, it's fun for me to problem solve in the shower. Sometimes I'll be in a conversation with my wife, and I'll just drift off and she'll be like, you stop thinking about the movie. You know.

Zack Arnold: I can relate so much. You have no idea.

Paul Rogers: Yeah, it's tough. And I get it because I've seen where she does it to me, I'm like, stop bleed. Why are you so hung up on work like this, the conference is next week, like you can just focus right dinner together, you know. And then when she does that, to me, I'm like, you know, making so many excuses. So I get it. But yeah, I think that that, you know, the struggle is still very real. But the guilt has gone down significantly. Because I I have recognized just how, how valuable to my work it is to come into work fresh, and excited and refreshed every day. Also, the caveat that something magical happens creatively. And this is such a bummer. something magical happens creatively when you are exhausted. And you have no other choice, but to make a gut choice. And some of those if you're not, if you haven't trained your gut to make good choices. If you stay up till three in the morning, and you're exhausted and your deadline is the next day, they'll start happening. And that is a is the truth. But it's also a bummer for the way that we work. So I guess the solution for that is to just like try to train our guests better to where we don't have to force it out at three in the morning because our brains are shutting down, you know, but I have definitely like, done some incredible work at three in the morning because my literally my brain, the frontal lobe of my brain stopped working as well. And all the instinctual parts of my brain started working. So I'm trying to like that's the struggle that I'm in is like, I don't work nights. But some of my best work is late at night. So like how do I how do I grab that and pull it in? Or how do I say how do I plan for that in a way that doesn't destroy I have set my family and mess up my plans for the next day when I'm supposed to be refereeing a soccer game with my kid. You know what I mean? Like, can you account for both?

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I'm, I could talk about this for hours, certainly not going to because I don't want to be conscious of your time, but I'll just kind of end it with. There's plenty of neuroscience that backs this up. And the shortest version is think about when you're drunk, you'll say anything, because all your inhibitions are gone, the prefrontal cortex is hidden. Yeah, I don't need to filter everything, all those limiting beliefs, all those fears that are stopping me gone. When you're exhausted. Basically the same thing with a brain, you're just uninhibited making all these got instinctual choices. So yeah, what I'm not going to advocate is, you know, pull a bunch of all nighters to do your best work. Because, you know, ultimately, in the long run, that's a stupid idea. But I will give you one really quick trick that I've learned, that you can use to access this a little bit more and like train it. I believe it was Thomas Edison that does this. And I couldn't be wrong. But essentially what he would do is he would take a nap in the afternoon. But what he would do is he would hold something heavy in his hand. Because if, when you hit that point where your brain shuts off, if it's startled, awake at that one moment, you get these amazing insights, because those inhibitions haven't come back yet. That's funny. So if you just you take like, you know, a half hour nap in the afternoon, but hold some seats, so that you as soon as you're you finally let go and voluntarily, it jolts, you awake. And sometimes you're like, Oh, my God, that's how to solve this problem. During it's really interesting, without having to, you know, endlessly pull all nighters.

Paul Rogers: I'll give it a shot for sure. Yeah.

Zack Arnold: So you know, that way, I could geek out on this stuff all day. But I want to be tremendously, tremendously respectful of your time and tell you, I had very high expectations for today, and you vastly exceeded them. I learned a lot of really, really cool stuff from our conversation, it is so clear that you know who you are the work that you want to do, and the impact that you want to make on the world. That's why I wanted to have this conversation, not because it was, ooh, how cool would it be to get an Oscar winner on my show? Right? I could. And it's like you said, you put a certain energy out there. And it attracted a very, very similar kind of energy. So this, to me was a really important conversation and a valuable one. And I'm glad that everybody that followed you and heard all about everything everywhere all at once and all the things you talked about. I'm glad they get to hear this site, too, because I love it when I talked to somebody that's on 40 interviews. And they're like, Ha, that's a really good question. I've never been asked that before. And I know we're talking about something different. Yeah,

Paul Rogers: Yeah, well, I appreciate it. I think it's a great, it's a great, you know, mission that you're on, for sure.

Zack Arnold: I appreciate that very much. I appreciate your time. And if anybody wants to learn more about your work, or connect or anything else, what's the what's the best way to find you, which I know is nearly impossible, because you've cultivated it to make it almost impossible to connect with you. Which by the way I very much admire.

Paul Rogers: Yeah, it's been nice to be as anonymous as possible. The company that I'm a partner in is called Parallax or website's parallaxpost.com. That's kind of it. You know, the website doesn't have our names on it. It just has the work. Let the work speak for itself.

Zack Arnold: I love it. Well, I'm going to make sure that we send people to Parallax Post. So Paul Rogers has been a tremendous pleasure. I cannot thank you enough for being here today.

Paul Rogers: Thank you so much.

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