A Psychologist’s Guide to Building Relationships and Managing Conflict (Both Personally and Professionally) | With Dr. Jessica Higgins

About Episode

Today’s guest is Dr. Jessica Higgins, a licensed psychologist and relationship coach. Now you might be wondering why we’re going to talk to a psychologist about relationships today, but while Dr. Higgins specializes in treating couples, our conversation covers the entire spectrum of building and maintaining relationships – even professional ones. Relationship building is a key strategy I teach in my Advance Yourself course, and beyond that a key component of joy and fulfillment (or not) in our lives.

In our conversation, we discuss what really goes on behind the scenes when it comes to the start of any personal or professional relationship, and how that attraction can so easily shift to conflict. Dr. Higgins shares the deeper roots of how we form conflict with others and in turn, how we can better manage these situations and come to a resolution rather than burn a bridge. By more deeply understanding how relationships work, we can change the game when it comes to our personal connections and professional network.

I cannot stress enough the valuable insights I have learned from Dr. Higgins and know you will have your own eye-opening experiences by listening to what she has to share. Her strategies in dealing with conflict, understanding who to connect with (and how) are in perfect alignment with what I teach my students in the Optimizer Coaching and Mentorship program. Beyond all of the helpful information Dr. Higgins provides in our conversation, she also shares a free guide which can be downloaded here to help you communicate better in your relationships.

Transcript

Zack Arnold: I'm here today with Dr. Jessica Higgins who holds two graduate degrees in psychology to coaching certifications and over 20 years of experience, helping people navigate the terrain of long lasting intimacy more skillfully and mindfully. And this is specifically done through your empowered relationship, podcast, your online courses, your coaching in a whole multitude of different areas, all designed to help people have better relationships. So Dr. Higgins, very, very excited to finally get you here today, after so many stops and starts, you and I, our calendars are not friendly to each other.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, thank you for your persistence. And again, your flexibility. And it is a pleasure to join you today.

Zack Arnold: Yeah and the reason that I am so persistent is because I know that this conversation will both have tremendous value to the people listening. But it's also going to be a little bit off the beaten path. And I have a feeling we're gonna get a little personal and a little emotional and a little intimate, far more than I might so talking about professional networking and cold outreach, and how do I really present myself in my brand new materials and really want to talk more about just the process of how do we build healthy relationships, both professionally and personally. And I think the the area that I really want to dig into the most is understanding how to both give and receive feedback slash criticism. Because whether it's in your personal relationships with a spouse, partner, or other, or in a professional relationship, where in Hollywood, in the entertainment industry, it's frankly, like the marriage where you see your spouse more, because you're with these people 12 16 18 hours a day, I feel like almost everything that we're going to talk about probably universally applies to better communication, and all these other things. So there's a whole lot that we're going to dive into, and appreciate having the level of expertise that you have. But before we get into the weeds, I always like to know a little bit more about the messenger as opposed to just the message. And what I would love to know more about and what I've discovered through having talked to and gotten to know a lot of coaches better, both just offline, but also having them on the show. And I know this is true for me. And I don't know if it's true for you. But people often choose coaching for a very specific reason. It's because something happened with them, some learning experience, or some kind of aha moment. They're like, now that I realize these things, and I have learned them, I want to help others get through this journey as well. Because I would assume with all your degrees, you could have very much just been a marriage and family therapist or anything else. But you chose specifically to become a coach. So talk to me a little bit more about your origin story and how you ended up doing what you do.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Hmm. Well, I'll try to be concise because it's been

Zack Arnold: You don't have to be concise on my podcast, you can digress all you want.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay, well, I do feel that the type of coaching that I'm offering is a blend of the psychology and the coaching and to speak really, about the coaching. I like that often coaching is about helping people be proactive, having some scaffolding to help get the results that they're looking for. And so as I just pulled back a little bit as far as psychology, I knew probably in middle school that I wanted to be a psychologist and I think the feedback that I was having from my mother more specifically is from a very young age, I just had this deep interest and love of people and why they do what they do and their emotion and just being really plugged into that. And that being said, I've gotten a lot of people that are like made comments around, Oh, it must be so nice to have known what you wanted to do. It's such an early age. And it's such a wide field and anyone who knows it's this huge umbrella and one can be in serving different types of clients in different modalities. So I has been a whole process of working with different people had a whole career with working with youth. But to get to the more relationship coaching, my dissertation was on relationship and that was Zack to your point, prompted by my own difficulty in relationship. So if I go back in time, when that's not my husband, my husband and I have been together 17 plus years and this is a different relationship that ended up failing so to speak. And going into that relationship, I felt pretty well equipped. I had a master's in psychology. I had an undergrad in Psych I had a family that was already practicing communication skills, emotional intelligence, and then had chemistry and we had shared vision so I thought we had all the makings of an amazing relationship and then began confronted with that I there's developmental stages in relationship and that second stage is is more of the power struggle or the conflict stage where the differences become so much more visible after the first stage, which is the honeymoon stage, and how to negotiate that. And there was a lot of threat that got activated, I think, between the two of us and the particular dance and how we were attempting to resolve that. And I think had we applied the principles that I now know, I do think perhaps we could have had a different outcome. However, life circumstances, I went to California and entered into the Ph. D. program. So life, you know, took us on different paths. But I'm so grateful, because what I ended up doing to answer your question is it really spawned me into a deep dive into understanding relationship principles that I did not feel well equipped for. And I felt like I should have been given, like what I just described. And as I began to self study, and really learn, it became that much more clear to me that there were principles that at that time, this was many years ago, most people the average person didn't have access to I think that's changed, given the podcast and the whole information age. But unless somebody had the type of modeling, or perhaps they were self studying, I don't think they were getting this information. So hence, the dissertation. And then I just in my practice, it's still Zach, just to say this one final piece, when I was in my brick and mortar, and when couples were coming in, it was still I would say, waited in couples coming in with their last ditch effort. And when I clear my conscience, we've done and we've made all these times, and we just want some support to really make sure we're making the right decision. And separating likely one person had already been a little bit kind of checked out of the relationship. So at that point, the there's research that says the average couple that comes in to work with a therapist is basically been in pain for like seven years. And it's like going to the doctor, the analogy is going to a doctor with a broken arm that was broken seven years ago, and like, can you help me? Yes. And had we gotten a chance to really work with some of this more immediately, we could have been perhaps more effective in creating, repair and helping, again, the scaffolding to really reworking the patterns.

Zack Arnold: So given all of that, first of all, for anybody that's only listening, that it doesn't have the video on right now, dear Lord is your face light up when you talk about your work, and it is very clear that you love what you do. I can just see it all over your face, how excited you got talking about this whole process and helping people. And that, to me is so important when you're going to build a relationship with either a therapist or with a coach. And this is a common question that I get often from people that want to work with me is well, what's the difference between a therapist and a coach, the difference being I have no degrees whatsoever, so they have to take a lot more of a leap with me. And I couldn't say I'm a therapist, because I need years and years of schooling and like you said, dissertations, and PhDs and all this practice and internships and whatnot. But I even asked the same question when I worked with a therapist years ago was with a psychoanalyst. And I actually have an entire episode about that journey. If people want to go way back in the archives, I'll put a link in the show notes with Dr. Steven Isaacson. But really, in helping me to better understand my past and who I was and experiences growing up and your identity from your parents, yada, yada, yada, right? But I kept saying to the person at the end, so what's my homework between now and next week, give me action steps. He's like, That's not how this works. I'm like, but I need things to do. I want to learn I want to grow. I wasn't that excited. It was a much more painful process. But that speaks to who I am as a person. And I know that you're very similarly wired, and that it's all about growth, personal development, you want to dig in deep. And we'll get into that a little bit later with where that can create conflicts and relationships. But at least for now, just on a little bit more basic level helped me better understand the difference between if I am having relationship challenges, why would want a traditional therapist versus a coach?

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Hmm. Well, I will say that therapists are trained to coach it's just they're also trained to do many other things. Whereas coaching and that approach is typically helping the couple in this case or the individual with a relationship concerns as we talk about relationship is having more of that experiential unpacking. So in my my framework, I'm usually looking at okay, let's get it let's look at and unpack what's getting in the way like, what are some of the tendencies, habits, beliefs, past experiences that might inform the way you show up? So it's a little bit of like, let's let's get out this, then let's give you perhaps more adaptive so the strategies and tendencies we typically use have been adaptive at one One point, but perhaps now are known maybe not the best approach or they're maladaptive even, or they have major side to side effects. So then we can look at, well, what are some other ways to give you the result that you're looking for, and in a way that really supports you, serves you and is adaptive. And then how to get the support to integrate that, and really distilling it into clear action steps to have a clear roadmap or that scaffolding to get into practice. And I think the therapeutic coaching, I can't divorce myself from that, right. So it very much does inform my work. And so oftentimes, it's not an exact equation, although with the podcast and programs I'm trying to give principles that are more can be generalized to probably any situation. But when we're giving that customized support, we're looking at the individual and their specific nuances and helping them feel like they have the real actionable steps that they can start working in integrating the coaching is, I think, more proactive, really helping someone have the understanding, and the support the experiential guidance, to be able to maybe even repattern some things so that they can really be in service of what they want in a new way and up level.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I think that I think all of that makes a whole lot of sense. And I want to add another layer to it. And given the level of experience and expertise that you have both just in your coaching practice, but literally your multitude of degrees. I'm coming from this as a novice, and I'm looking to see if I'm on the right path or the wrong path. But I've been told multiple times, even just one of my students yesterday, had said, I had a meeting with my therapist, and they said, This coach that you're working with, I gotta be honest, they're making a really big difference. And they got you where you are now in about eight weeks, and it would have taken me about a year to get there. So whoever you're working with, I want you to keep doing that. When and I've heard that from people more than once. And I never say Oh, I'm a therapist, but there's definitely there has to be some form of informal therapy in the coaching process. Like you said, you can't divorce them. But the simplest version, when somebody's asked me, well, what's the difference between a therapist and a coach? And when do I need one? And when do I need the other? My kind of layman's explanation is I feel like therapy focuses a lot more on understanding the past. And coaching is much more in understanding where do I go from here and overcome obstacles to achieve my goals? Am I totally off base coming from somebody that's way more trained and experienced than I?

Dr. Jessica Higgins: No, I think there's a lot of truth to that I, I would add therapists typically are diagnosing to the I refer out to other therapists when it relates to trauma or certain experiences that you're mentioning that might impact an individual to have certain symptoms or even a diagnosis. And so there's different waters there, when we really look at what what the goals are and what it's serving. But I do think there's truth to what you're saying. Absolutely.

Zack Arnold: Yeah. And the diagnosis, definitely, I have probably the disclaimer that I say the most, most often, it should just be a button and zoom and a recording because I say it's often. So here's my advice is a non trained, non licensed professional, this is just your friend giving you advice, it's always the same thing to make sure to frame it as these are my own personal thoughts. Don't take it as professional recommendation. But I will say you should maybe talk to this specialist, or this specialist or see this person because I'll know almost instantly I'm like, No, I'm now out of my depth. This is not my thing. I don't want to pretend I know the answers. But when it comes to setting out a plan and moving forwards, I often feel that that's an area where as a coach, another component of it is you've been through the same trenches. I fought the battles that you have fought and I can empathize. And here are some of the strategies that I've used. So I just I just wanted, I wanted to help people kind of understand the difference between those two, because I'm still trying to figure it out. And for most people on the outside, they're like, I have no idea what the differences are what it even means.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, for sure. I mean, there is a lot of overlap for me, and it is distinguished in there. I think that's a great question to ask whomever one is looking at engaging with or hiring that that's you could probably ask that question to multiple people and you'll get a different answer. So I think I'm sure it'd be really helpful to get clear on what what that is and what it means.

Zack Arnold: So where I would like to go next is again, and you've used the term a couple of times that I love, it's just kind of laying some scaffolding, so you have a little bit of structure to build off of. The first piece that I wanted to build off of was having a little bit more clarity between therapy and coaching, the second of which is a word that you've used tendencies. And one of the frameworks that I find so valuable for me is Gretchen Reuben's four tendencies and I first want to make sure you're familiar with it.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I am that please refresh my memory because I want to plug in to you and be really with you here.

Zack Arnold: So essentially the this is something that I use in the coaching practice a lot to help people just better understand how they react to specific expectations. So her basically her four tendencies are that it's not a personality framework. It's not here's your type, I hate all these kind of like Myers Briggs, you or this or that, or that or that, like I don't believe in any of that. But with a tendencies, it's only in the realm of how do I respond to either internal or external expectations. So for Tennessee, she came up with where I am either an upholder, which means that I will meet all the expectations, you asked me to do something, I'm there, I'm there on time, if I want to do something, and I want to exercise five days a week I do it, right, like military precision and discipline. The second one would be the obliger, which would be that I am here above and beyond to meet all of your expectations, mine not so much to struggle meeting my own inner expectations, you know, self care, etc. Questioner is happy to meet your external expectations or mine. But it's got to make sense. It's gotta be justified, I need to know why I've got 17 questions that I need to ask before, I'm sure that this is the right decision. And then the fourth one would be the rebel, which is you're not going to tell me what to do. And neither am I really struggling with expectations in general. So that's something that I find is very useful, and essentially helped me better understand in about three minutes, where the challenges were both in my relationship personally, but in a lot of the challenges that I was having professionally. So I just kind of wanted to throw that out there just as a type of language or framework for us to be able to to dig in going forwards. But is there anything else that when it comes to better understanding relationships, conflict, feedback, criticism, which we're gonna dive into deeper? Is there anything like this similar in your world because I love this kind of stuff?

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, we could spend weeks talking, I bet we could, we could? Well, I will say, first of all, I don't, I don't know if I've come across her name sounds very familiar. But I don't know that I had that in my mind. So it's really helpful that you utilize that. And that's something that's been so informative, around orienting and just assessing some of the conflicts that might emerge. One of the major frameworks that I work with and is really looking at the attachment system, and most notably, as it relates to couples work is the Emotionally Focused Therapy. And that's looking at the deep core drivers and motivation as it relates to romantic relationship I'll specify. Now this shows up in every relationship, but when the stakes are the highest, this is when it gets activated the most. And the attachment system informs how we think, how we feel, and also our nervous system. And this was developed at a very young age in our environment in our caregiving, was it consistent? Or was it unpredictable? Was it actually even neglectful or even abusive, so we learned even as infants were learning how to respond to our world, and what's available, and we get a almost a relational imprint, and a roadmap of basically what to expect and how to negotiate the, the dynamics. And so that gets put on repetition or repeat. And there's a tremendous amount of learning in that. And where this actually begins to get further activated. So it's, it's formed in early childhood. And then it's reinforced throughout school years and young adulthood, but we might not feel the system alive, until we enter into a primary love relationship, like a marriage or a deep partnership. And then we will notice, I don't feel this way with anyone else, like, what's going on here? Why am I feeling these things? Or it feels threatening? Or we feel like all these this activation in the nervous system are feeling threat or insecurity or not good enough? Or does this person really love me, all of these things. And so we have certain ways in which we deal with that. And so I could talk a lot more about this model. We could spend the entire episode and probably several more on this. But this is very helpful when I'm working with particularly a couple and understanding what they're experiencing, and how their partners showing up because their partner on the outside may look a certain way might be saying a certain thing, which could be congruent with it with what they're feeling on the inside or it actually could could be a protest or it could be some protective strategy. So it might not actually be that revealing of what's actually happening happening on the inside. But whatever the partner is saying and what it sounds like will land with the other in a certain way. And so that's really important to get clear on around what are the deep underlying layers that are usually informing why we do and say what we're doing in relationship.

Zack Arnold: So you're saying that sometimes when my partner says something, and I hear something different, or vice versa, that's a thing. That's a thing and shocking.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Shocking, yes. I know.

Zack Arnold: I know that we could go into this probably for a four part episode. And we certainly don't need to go that deep. But this is something I don't know that much about. And anytime that I come across any form of framework that helps we simplify and better understand behavior, basically, all the bells and like noises and everything go off in my head saying, Oh, my God, I must learn more. So we don't even make make this an entire series about the attachment theory. But I think this is a good way to have some language about how we can better understand our partners either personally, or even somewhat professionally, when it becomes really intimate in that creatively collaborative environment. So can you start by giving me just kind of some some basic examples of like, you have attachment theory, A versus B, versus C, and here's kind of what they would look like, if they manifested, like, what, what's one example of you know, this this attachment type, or theory, or whatever that we're talking about?

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah. And I like the use of tendencies, because there are a lot of people that will try to say, Oh, you have an insecure attachment, or you're anxiously attached or avoidant Lee attached. So research simplifies this to basically come to some type of findings, right? So it's to reduce it. So I would just for our conversation, say secure attachment is again, the thinking that the world and people are going to respond to me, emotionally, I feel safe, people are going to engage and my needs are gonna get met. And physiologically, I feel relaxed, and I feel at ease, and I feel that I can be myself. So that's the sense of security that ultimately, if we have an optimal or even good enough upbringing, we'll likely have that more or less. Now, I think the research is like 60% of us or even more, have an insecure attachment style. And the two major insecure attachment styles are more of the anxious, the anxious, is the checking the or are we still okay? Are you there? Are we good, and making sure that that consistency, and that and that relationship bond is being attended to because there's a known felt experience that it's, it isn't it has been inconsistent. And so that or even there's been rejection or abandonment or loss. So that felt experience of like, I might lose you, you might go away, you might reject me. Thus, I'm going to continue to just check in, pursue and get reassurance. And the other major, second, insecure attachment style is more of the avoidant. And this is the one that typically has felt some level of not being responded to either parents are overwhelmed with work, or there were too many children in the home to really get those real clear, attunement, like emotionally being seen and responded to, or there was neglect or abuse. So the individual learns, oh, my needs are not gonna get met. The best way for me to cope and get by is by relying on myself. So that's self reliance, and turning away because that is not safe. That is not a reliable source. So I turn away. And so typically, the person that's a little bit more avoidant, that will look like the one that shuts down, the one that gets flooded, the one that gets overwhelmed or flooded could go either way. But typically, the avoidant feels less stable in engaged it, usually there's a lot of stimuli and that again, it hasn't always felt safe. So then they tend to want to turn away that kind of ground and regulate the dynamic.

Zack Arnold: No, this this is a great place to pause. Because I didn't know a whole lot about this. This wasn't a matter of oh, I'm feeding you a question haven't already done the research. I am coming into this genuinely curious and want to learn more about this realm. And I had the exact same experience listening to you just now that I had listening to Gretchen Rubin on stage five years ago, where as she was describing the tendencies, it was like, I get it now. Now it makes sense going through those instantly. I'm like, Yep, I know which one I am and I know which one my spouse is. So because my spouse is not on the call, I'm definitely not going to involve her in any of these conversations or reveal any details. Because you know that I don't think that that would be you know, would would be respectful of her and I certainly don't want to put her in that position. But the joke that I make, which I think is probably only half joking is that people that listen to this podcast in certain ways probably know me better than that, that my wife does. Because I'm so open about just learning about myself. And as we talked about personal development growing, you have to be vulnerable and open. And the one that popped off for me immediately was the while you were talking actually brought up under this framework of the attachment styles in front of what it calls this more insecure, anxious ambivalent one where it's not the avoidant, but it's more of a sense of, I'm just just checking in and we're still good, right? It's, everything's still cool. Give me an example of where if somebody relates to that specifically that might come from?

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, well, I will use myself and my husband knows, share a little bit of our dynamic. And as I mentioned, we've worked these patterns. So part of what I'm sharing is, back in 2005 2006, so I had experienced quite a bit of loss growing up and did have, I believe, some intermittent inconsistencies in my caregiving. And unbeknownst to me, I will say is that before I really got deep into choosing and wanting deep commitment, I felt pretty happy in my romantic relationships. And but I was playing it a little I was swimming in the shallow, I'll say, I wasn't necessarily like, all in so my, my insecurity about feeling abandoned, didn't get activated until I really chosen. And so what it looked like, in my relationship with my now husband, then boyfriend was, I mean, people who know him, he can be contained in his presentation, meaning he's not super expressive. So sometimes, on his face, it's not super clear what he's feeling or where he's coming from. And he's, he's a conscious guy, so he'll communicate, but he's not like me, I will make it so easy for anyone show you my belly, like I will, I will be conveying what I'm feeling so that that's really visible. Well, I would be uncertain about his feelings for me or his commitment towards me. And I would want to check or what it would look like Zack, which I don't think I was fully aware of, I knew at that point, I had done enough work to know that I did have the fear of abandonment and fear of rejection. So I had enough footing underneath me to have connection with that and take care of that and do my work and be vulnerable in that. And I wanted to have a different dynamic and relationships. So I was willing to show that. However, when there was conflict that would emerge, my tendency was to get and I didn't feel mal intended with this, but I would get into the lawyer mode, I would want to ask a bunch of questions. To your point about

Zack Arnold: You and I are the same human being, by the way, continue. This is scary.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, so I would want to understand more. But what I was really in service of was this need to check to make sure we're still good. And I wasn't owning it. It was like I was anxiously looking and tracking and trying to discern so I could get the information and he could feel it. And he would not enjoy that he would want to push away a little bit and then I would pursue him more. And that is a dance, the pursuer and the just answer. And when I would start to recognize that tendency, I would be able to, to slow down and get in touch with okay, what is this deeper layer? Oh, I'm afraid you don't like me as much as I like you. Or I'm worried you don't want to work this out. I remember, Oh, man. This was several years after we had been together. And we were in some conflict. And he just looked like he was aloof and wasn't, like, interested in working it out. And I was like, I just need to know that you want to work on this? And he's like, Of course I do. But I didn't know that I felt super insecure about it. And just knowing that I could tolerate not resolving it knowing that he was still going to come back and and work it out with me.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I think like I said, basically everything you said, you and I are wired is almost the same human being the one that I think really resonated with me. And again, I'm not going to go down the realm of talking about my partner at all. But when it comes to the idea of I'm totally an open book. My mom has told me many times throughout my entire life, she's like, You cannot hide anything. I know exactly what you are feeling at any given moment because it is all over your face. So I'm very expressive and very open. And when you're in relationship where the other person doesn't have that as much, you just like you said, you almost want it because that's the way that you see the world because that's how you're wired. But because somebody doesn't express themselves as much that comes off as disinterest, or like you said, there's this actual dance of the pursuer in the distance, or what I'm fascinated by now, and this may not even be something you have an answer to. But I'm gonna go back to these tendencies for a second, where it's this idea of in general, everybody's heard the term opposites attract. And there are certain styles or combinations that work really well together. And then there are other styles that just don't work together at all. So this is kind of a random, maybe even a dumb question. But why would somebody that's a pursuer magically attracted to a distance? Or is because it seemed like that makes a whole lot of sense,

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right. Well, there's many ways to answer that question. But from a psychological perspective, oftentimes, it's the part of the brain the amygdala that has known a certain level of injury or hurt or even trauma and is looking to repair that. So Harville Hendricks and Helen Hunt, they call this the picker, that the amygdala is often informing the picker, this is not in the field of awareness, it's unconscious, we recognize very quickly, oh, this is familiar, I can now resolve the thing that has been hurtful or painful. However, when it's unconscious, we can be attracted to the familiar. And when it's unconscious, we could end up just repeating the same dynamic, because it's familiar. And we're, you know, on some level looking to repair that, heal that. And we have to show up differently and be conscious around it to have a different experience. Otherwise, we're just going to repeat the same dance.

Zack Arnold: And I've always been fascinated by like I said, first, it's just the idea of opposites attract, it's like, Well, that just seems dumb. Why wouldn't you want to be with somebody that's like you and thinks like you and believes like you. Number one, that can be boring, and you need that challenge. But number two, like you said, there's often something that we're seeking. And in the conversation that I had with Gretchen Rubin, when we did our podcast interview together, we were talking about specifically, if you work in collaborative relationships, how useful it can be to understand your tendencies so that you can find the right person to work with. And as an example, anybody that listens to this, especially my students know that I consider myself a questioner on steroids. There's a reason that I've transitioned to an entire career path. It's all about talking to other people, and asking them questions, and getting answers to my questions, because I'm insanely intensely curious. And I found that way, before understanding these tendencies. If I would hire somebody to be on my team, that was another question, or they drove me insane. Would you just stop asking questions and just do the thing? And that's a very, very common point of conflict where two questioners oftentimes, they butt heads, because one of them has already done all the work and done the research, and I'm confident this is the right answer. Now, you just need to agree that this is the right answer, and oblige and go forwards. So that's an example of how I've used the four tendencies framework to better understand what role do I need on my team? If I'm interviewing somebody? I'm not going to say what's your tendency, but I want to ask questions to get a sense of oh, they seem very much more the obligers Answer the upholder, very rigid or they're not going to listen to rules, and they're the rebel. So the reason I bring all this up is I feel and you can correct me if I'm wrong. But when we dig into how do we construct a conversation that's going to include conflict or feedback or criticism, I changed the way I approach my conversations when I better understand the other person's tendency. So how can we start to better understand these attachment frameworks? And how is that then going to inform the way that we start and structure conversations when it comes to feedback, criticism, conflict, etc.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Such a great question. I want to make two little points about just to affirm what you're saying around opposites attracting and I do think there's a polarity even with like masculine feminine or just this idea that we bring something different and that can actually be very helpful in continuing to keep the passion alive, right? We're not same same. We're not getting into this codependent like, Oh, what do you want to do? I don't know, what do you do? Like, we're not really willing to be occupying our space. And so when we can have that tension a little bit that can keep the passion and sexual intimacy like it can keep that fire alive. And also to your point in a wider beyond just intimate relationship. I think when you have people that think differently or operate differently, that level of versity, I think really adds to the strength rather than just being in the same same. But to answer your question, in this dynamic when we can look at what are these inside parts. So it took a level of work for me to understand, Oh, he's distancing, or he's shutting down because he's overwhelmed. Or he feels as though he's failing me, or he's not good enough. Like, I had no idea. I didn't see that on the outside. I just saw him. Not saying a whole lot seemingly looking away, or seeming disinterested. And that landed was me in a way of like, oh, like, is he with me? Where is he what's going on. And then I would get a little bit louder, not yelling, because I've done enough work to know that that didn't work. But I would still get pursuing it. And that would kind of further hit that point for him of like, Oh, she's wanting me more, I'm not showing up in the way she wants. And so that's not good enough. So as we've worked this, and allowed for those inside parts to be more visible, because the thing I didn't say earlier, Zack was when I would start to recognize, oh, I do feel some insecurity here, or I do some feel some fear, when I would show that to him. Rather than approach him with my questions. I have yet to feel him turn away. Like it's this. Almost like tuning forks, that when I soften and I show that vulnerability, it allowed him to meet me and respond to me. And that's where it's an irony because it's counterintuitive, the thing that I think is ugly, or shameful or not attractive. And I'm showing him with this huge risk of like, I don't know what he's gonna say, and I'm just giving him like the deepest part. He can viably just stomp all over it. And for him to actually meet it and be with it and like, respond to it. Like that's the thing I needed and wanted. And so that over time just became so helpful. And for him to know, oh, you're not grilling me, because you think I'm failing you. You're grilling me because you're scared. Or she's got some sensitivity here that is showing up. Like, that's a whole different thing. And similarly, so I'm going to answer your question, hang in there.

Zack Arnold: Do not edit yourself at all. This is fantastic.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay, so for him, when I understood Oh, he is experiencing this dynamic as intense, and that it's activating him in this way of feeling like he's not good enough, or he's failing me or I, I'm somehow not happy with him. It allowed me to soften because my ultimate goal was to feel closer to him to feel more connected about whatever the conflict was. So as we began to work this and have enough repetition and experience I've learned if he starts getting overwhelmed, and I think to your earlier point, being able to see even with my husband, who tends to be a little bit more contained on the spectrum, rather than Super expressive, I can still read it right when you know, someone, you can still pick it up. And this is what we call in psychology, neuroception runs neuroception our nervous systems are reading the tone of voice, the nonverbal, the micro facial expressions of the others around us, and we're picking up emotional information in like a nanosecond. And this is like one of our greatest sources of information that's very quick. And this comes from a very primal place, if we think about herd animals, not every animal let's say a gazelle needs to see that there's a lion in the grass. If one senses it, and starts to get all agitated, and little spooked, they all spoke, right? So we respond this way, and to be getting this type of information. And so likely in relationship, we're picking up on this information. And typically what happens is we're reacting to each other. But if we're trying to set this up differently, and understanding the deeper layers, then to your question, as we understand these deeper places, deeper longings, attachment systems, or insecurities, then we can typically show up for ourselves that we can make that visible Oh, that part of me that gets scared as is like, I feel that right now or I'm starting to get worried. Or I see something in you that's letting me know this is beginning to feel hard. So can I slow down can In a camp do we need to pause? Do I need to soften my voice? Do I need to claim what's happening for me more rather than asking you questions, like, there's a lot of ways that we can start to show up for that part. So it begins to feel safer and when it's safe. This is when we talk about the nervous system, we can get into the ventral state where we can have intimacy, we can have closeness, if we're threatened, we're not capable, that's not their capacity is we're not available for that.

Zack Arnold: The first thing we you thought of when you were the first thing that I thought of when you mentioned this idea of neuroception, I've never heard it quite put that way. But that sounds similar to this idea of mirror neurons. This idea that, you know, if, if when somebody yawns we yawn, somebody smiles, we smile, we feel happier, it just kind of, I'm not going to get existential. And you know, the universal connection of all beings and atoms and electrons and whatnot definitely don't need to go there. But even in my craft of editing and filmmaking, you play so much when trying to create and improve the quality of a performance playing on mirror neurons. This idea of oh, well, if you know, they just have this little smile in the corner of their mouth, that's going to trigger a little bit more empathy and happiness in the audience versus this version, where they don't have that little tiny curl on the corner of their mouth. Right. So that would be an example of how I've used it for years. When it comes to relationships. The first thing that I thought of and my guess is that this is something you can immediately relate to, and you've heard from your clients 1000 times in conflicts. Well, it's not so much what they said it was their tone. I bet you've heard that once or twice, haven't you? Yes. Yes. And with this being an example of like this neuroception of putting off a specific energy, even if it's not the exact words, they it's how they would apologize or how they asked a question. It's not even so much what they said, it's how they said it. This is a source of a lot of conflict in both my professional and personal life. Because the version of me that comes out of my head is very different than the version that's in my head.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Exactly. And we think we're showing something. But often, what we're showing, like I mentioned is not congruent with what's actually happening on the inside.

Zack Arnold: So let's dig into that a little bit further to understand what are what are some of the areas that you would say when when a couple comes to you. And again, I think that we're probably going to dive mostly into the personal side of things. But all of this is so universal to professional collaboration as well, maybe minus the most intimate parts, but we are talking about Hollywood so that that even occurs as well. But in general, what are some of the most common patterns that you see when it comes to conflict in relationships?

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, well I would say the distance or pursuer, so this is the pursuer tends to be a little louder, it could look like questions, it could also look like the one that will raise their voice or be angry or a little bit more demonstrative or expressive. Some people will call that the hail storm, they'll be very dynamic in the way that they're expressing their feelings. And the other tends to be a little bit more, they will call it like the tortoise, they'll go in their shell, they'll be a little bit more avoidant, or internal. And these are the two main styles as it relates to attachment. As you're talking about conflict. I mean, this can take many forms. Where I mean, weak, I can give you lots of examples. Are you wanting me to categories? Are you wanting more examples?

Zack Arnold: No, just if you if you are off the top of your head, it doesn't have to be any specific framework or based on research, just your own personal experience. Having done this for more than 20 years and having countless couples coming to you, what are just the most common things like Yeah, I hear this every day. And this is a very common source of conflict all the time that creates stress and friction in relationships.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, well, typically, there's main areas of conflict. And oftentimes, again, what's happening on the inside, it's not about the dishes. It's not even about the children. It's often not even about the money or the sex or the who's expressing what it's often about these deeper attachment needs. Like does he care? Like if he didn't take out the trash? He's not thinking about me, he's ignoring me. He doesn't really consider me like, that's not just a trash, right. And so, the conflict and the differences often and then you also mentioned right when we have differences, this could be the one that's extroverted or the one that's introverted. I love that the Gottman Institute and they do a lot of research as it relates to couples came out with some research that the average couple has seven to eight irreconcilable differences. And that was a pretty alarming when I first came across that but I thought about it and I'm like, yep, that that actually makes sense. So the one that's more expressive, the one that's a little bit more contained the one that's on time, the one that is a little bit late, or the spontaneous one, the planner, the saver, the spender. So I could go on and on about these differences. And those differences on face value can feel like a conflict. And typically our attempt is, oh, if you would be more like me, then we wouldn't have an issue. Or let me tell you about yourself. So that this is where the criticism shows up. Let me tell you, give you unsolicited feedback. That's corrective. And I think that my opinion based on me being your partner is so valuable. This is just all I have to do is just tell you, and typically in relationship, we're not in relationship to be evaluated or to be critiqued. And we're actually not that interested, surprisingly, of our partners. When it's unsolicited. If we're soliciting it, of course, we care. But if it's unsolicited, it's a distraction. Because what happened, Zach is the person that's having issue, if they're attempting to resolve the issue, by means of criticism. It's a distraction, because what that then means is, I'm going to tell you about your errors, and expect that you're going to make some changes. And that shouldn't be the end of the conversation, will the person on the receiving end is I do not agree with that. Your characterization is not at all what is true. Let me defend and tell you about how many times I didn't take out the trash, or how many times I do think about you, and then we're off and rolling in the recrafting reality or trying to get some sense of are we speaking the same language when that's not the point? The point is, when you didn't take out the trash, I got scared or got worried or I get concerned that I'm not in your mind or i You're not thinking about me or that you don't really care about our agreements. Like that's a different thing to leave with. So I hope I'm answering your question, because the conflicts on face value will look like a bunch of different things. But on the underneath part, it's often about something very different, which is on its core basis, usually about something attachment related.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, well, what I found more often than not, almost universally is whatever you think the thing is, it's not the thing, there's a thing that's so much deeper underneath the thing, not just in personal relationships, but in professional relationships. Or even if I'm in the process of crafting a fictional story, and you're getting criticism on what that story is the idea of the note underneath the note, well, the scene doesn't really work or this character doesn't work. I'm not feeling this thing. So they fix this problem. And you're like, the reason you're actually feeling this is because something that happened 45 minutes ago with a totally different scene. But being able to understand that whatever the thing is, isn't really the thing. And there's a thing under the thing is so applicable to relationships, because you're right. It's never about the dishes, it's never about the buying the shoes are never about the whatever, right? And this idea of the irreconcilable differences. I don't know if we've got seven, but I can already tell you, we've got one and it would be Disneyland is fun versus Disneyland is not fun. I'm guessing you would probably figure out which camp that I'm in. Anybody that knows this podcast knows instantly which one I'm in. This is one of those that after almost 20 years, we've just come to agree to disagree about one that absolutely enjoys the theme parks and the Disney lands and one that's like, nope, not for me. And that but that would be an example of one where even though it's irreconcilable, there's this just agreement of totally fine that that's who you are totally fine, that that's who I am.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, one thing that might serve your audience because you've really helped me know that many people are are negotiating the professional world. And I do think it fits for both personal relationship and relationships across the board. And this can be really helpful tool in in an interaction where I want if it's starting to feel tense or conflictual, is asking the question either internally or if it feels appropriate, even making it explicit, but trying to understand because most people are surprised, like when somebody's coming at them with a little bit of heat like whoa, what's what's happening here like what like I'm feeling attacked or I don't understand what they were we just got off track. So if it's disorienting or confusing, and it seems like an unknown like, what I don't get this is to ask the question. I mean, yes, we're gonna listen to the content of what somebody's saying. But as you're saying, and I'm saying sometimes it's not even about The thing, it's about something else is to ask the question, How is this? Like, what really matters to them? What is it that they're needing right now? Not so much a meeting? But like, what's the importance here for them? Like, what? What is it that they're charged about? And I think that question, if we just hold that question, it can be a pivot towards something that can be sometimes a breakthrough. Because if we don't get super attached to whatever they're throwing at us, and we stay with this curious question of wondering, okay, they have feelings about this, what is it that they're wanting or needing right now? Like, what is it that's super important to them? And if we can get that, and even say, Oh, it sounds like X, Y, and Z and reflect it back, that starts to then get at the real juice, and then there's a lot more opportunity to get creative, collaborative and constructive about resolution.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, that's, that's a framework that I found that I've used a lot in many, in instance, where there's been a pretty significant to creative conflict about it should be this way, it should be that way. Or what I've also found is people want to give you solutions. And I feel that my job is to provide the solutions, I just want you to tell me what isn't working. And I think that that can be applied both in a personal and professional relationship. But I can remember one show that I worked on really complicated series finale, and everybody was they just couldn't crack it. And they're trying to throw all these ideas, and I just stopped everybody. I'm like, let's not, we don't need to be in problem solving mode right now. Don't tell me what you feel is the solution. Just tell me what you need from this. If this were exactly what you wanted it to be when you're done watching this, what do you feel? What is it accomplished? Like, oh, well, that's a totally different way to like, Well, ideally, it's going to do this, and it feels this way. And these are my thoughts. I'm like, great, give me a day, come back. And I'm gonna show you the scene that accomplishes all these things, as opposed to everybody's trying to problem solve it together. And I think, at least with me, because I am a problem solver for a living, I always want to, right away do. Alright, so what's going on here? How do we fix this? And sometimes that's great, like you said, when it's solicited, however, when it's not, that can be a really, really big source of conflict, which is something that I want to get into next, specifically with personal relationships, because professionally, it's all solicited, because we're supposed to give each other notes and criticism and criticism and make it better.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, we've signed up to be evaluated or to be in a place of this collaboration and giving feedback or it's hierarchical. And we have a boss that gets to kind of override or make a final accusation.

Zack Arnold: Exactly. So when you're when you're wired 60 70 80 hours a week to be in this collaborative environment where it's okay, and safe to say what isn't working, because we all have the same common goal of making this better. Sometimes you forget that in a relationship, it's not the same solicited amount of feedback. And again, without getting too personal. On the other side of things I can at least talk about it from my perspective, is that one of the most fundamental lessons that I've learned, both from my personal relationship, but also now being in the space of personal development, and going to multiple events. And for example, I've spoken a few times at some Tony Horton events, the guy that is, you know, from, you know, Melissa Costello, and that's how you and I connected. And the number one question that most people ask, this is a question I asked for years. And I even asked him at one point is, what do you do when you want to grow the relationship or help somebody else, whether they're dealing with, you know, drinking, or smoking or whatever it is something that's unhealthy for the relationship? How do you help somebody when they don't want to be helped? It's kind of the universal question of a relationship, where you really have nothing but the best of intentions, but that the best of intentions is meeting that friction of, well, if it's not solicited, it's not heard the right way, I would guess that this is a pattern that you see a lot in relationships.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Mm hmm. So let me ask you, are you saying, is this like a ninja move that you're asking me or because I do think it's a different relationship when one is in the helping space or the coaching space, and someone doesn't like they're showing up and they're perhaps paying or they're doing whatever they're doing to engage, but they, at the end of the day, they don't really want to do the work or they're not really wanting it? Like, I do think that there's ways that we can help work with that resistance or help them really get in touch with the thing that they would love and really help them. Maybe look at all of the things like that help them accomplish and being in service of their why or what they would, but when it comes to relationship, and we have a front row seat to Do our partner, and perhaps ways that they might sabotage themselves or hurt themselves not like hurt hurt, but like, get in the way. Are you asking how do we deal with that is tell me if I'm not,

Zack Arnold: I don't actually know what it wasn't like any kind of a ninja ask in any way. But I know that the the answer that I've heard to this question more than once by more than one professional and I've even when somebody has asked me this question where they said, Listen now that I've really gotten into running and marathon training, I really want my wife to be able to to come with me, I have to have one client that I'm thinking of specifically that I won't name by name. So like now that I've kind of found this and I feel so much better, I want my wife to run marathons with me. But you know, she's not interested. And I always say you can't, you can't help somebody or give them this feedback and make changes if they're not soliciting it or wanting at first. So and I've also heard that advice from other experts with like, you can't help somebody that doesn't want to be helped. But I'm also very encouraged by the fact that you feel that there is more that can be done other than Well, you know, this is the main conflict in the relationship is I want to go direction a they want to go and direction b and you know, there's there's nothing we can do about it. Because I know that this is brought to me all the time, even though I do mostly career development and productivity and time management. The thing underneath the thing is, I can't send the outreach email or I can't exercise or whatever it is, because there's so much weight and conflict in my relationship. It's just it's a lot. It's creating a lack of focus. And it generally stems down to I'm somebody that's really driven by personal and professional development with somebody that isn't.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, just to clarify, when I said ninja move, I was wondering if you're asking me, Is there a question that a partner could, or a way approach that a partner could show up for the other that would be motivated when they don't want to do the work? That would be kind of like a ninja move, right? Like, and I just think, unfortunately, again, this neuroception people sniff this out really quick. The Bs radars like I know what you're doing, are not clever, right. And so to your point, I do think that it's difficult to start encroaching into someone else's space and giving them feedback, or evaluation or helping coach them when it hasn't been asked for. That being said, when one is really in the practice of growing themselves, it is a conflict, and to have concern around. Here's what I'm envisioning. And here's what I'm actively pursuing. And I am struggling with how what that looks like if we're not on the same page, or you're not interested. And a way for us to share, it doesn't have to be the exact same thing. But for us to be able to share the type of closeness, the type of connection intimacy that I'm looking for, is growth. Right. So if one is in pursuit, and real simple way of saying this is if one partners in pursuit of growth and development, and likely that's going to be on multiple levels at any given point. And the other partner is not, right. Typically, that looks like being more comfortable or not wanting to stretch or there could be lots of reasons for that. That can be extremely difficult. And sometimes for some, that's a deal breaker. And I'm not saying that that's the net net. But I it is difficult. And in my dissertation, I came across this research that oftentimes one person, they didn't start the growth together one partner, it was either so the so what I was looking at was couples who are in practice of like conscious, intimate relationship principles. And so what I found was most of the time, it was either one partner had already been in the growth process, and the other one was like, Oh, I like I like what they're doing. I'm gonna get on my own little train here. And we're gonna have some way we can share this, it might not look exactly the same, but the other partner came along at some point, or they were both in it when they met. I think it's probably less. I think it's less common that both start at the exact same time, or that one is completely unwilling to do anything and the others, like super growth oriented, so I think there's a lot more gray here. And I think the best just to reiterate, is when the person that has the concern can speak from a place of that vulnerability of revealing of like, here's what I long for, here's what I wished for and would love with you or here's what I want to cultivate with you. It's a real call. And if the person's I sorry, i Good luck with that. I don't know what to tell you. You, I would maybe seek some support from someone who does have training and working with couples? Because I'd be interested in not Oh, I don't know, good luck with that, like, is that protection? Is that fear is that, you know, fear of an additive, there could be a lot of things that could be happening on the inside. But if it's getting support, and really unpacking that, and looking at like, No, this person really doesn't have any interest, then that's more information. But sometimes, again, as we've been talking about that disinterest isn't always disinterest, it's just, you know, again, I gave a couple examples, it might not reflect what's actually happening on the inside.

Zack Arnold: And one of the things you brought up that I think is so important to mention, is when it makes sense to possibly bring somebody else in. And what I have found this so helpful in the therapeutic process, in general, is this idea of oftentimes a therapy therapist is serving as a translator of either whatever your own thoughts are, or if you are dealing with conflict, where it's a matter of, well, what they're really saying is you're like, Oh, that's not what I heard at all. So I find that that can be tremendously beneficial. And this kind of helps me transition to kind of one of these frameworks, or strategies that you talked about with conflict, that I want to go into a little bit deeper, that I think is really important in any realm of conflict, which is the idea of AI, versus you, you you. So I want I want to make sure that people, they number one, they had these bigger concepts and ideas to really think about, how do I generally fit into this or that or that to better understand myself and others, but also just on the ground? What are some things that I can use right away to try and dig in and improve conflict and relationships, whether personal or professional, and this is one that really stuck out to me. So when I talk about I versus you, what are we talking about here?

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Hmm? Well, I would say, it's very common and natural to point to the thing that hurts, right? So we want to describe the thing that hurts, we want to point to it, we want to bring attention to it. And typically when it relates to relationship, that means the other person. And so when we're saying you, you, you, as I mentioned earlier, likely the person's not going to agree with you, they're going to have their own feelings and defensiveness likely around that feeling inaccurate and this characterization, and then again, it diverts from the point, which is I'm struggling, I have an issue, I have a concern, and I want to talk to you about it, which is the eye, right. And so typically, if we can make that visible stay in our own lane, our partner is going to be so much more interested because they don't have to defend on what feels like a character attack or a blame or criticism. They're not having to defend any of that they can just show up for being interested in Oh, you have a concern. Let me I would like to hear about that. Or tell me more. So the AI is typically, here's where my mind goes, here's what I'm thinking when x y&z happens, or in this dynamic, here's what I'm feeling, here's what I'm experiencing. And here's my worries or my fears. So that then is put on the table, and then likely the partner has a much more ability to respond and meet that. And so yes, to your point. I mean, you have a clear framework, but it's it's very classic is just using language that is revealing and the I statements, it can be tricky because people can say I feel that you write and the U is you did X and I don't think there's anything wrong with saying when X, Y and Z happened. But to really pivot back towards, can I show you can I reveal my world with you, which is typically the I.

Zack Arnold: So I want to dig into this and get really, really specific now because this seems little, and it's really big. And it goes back to this idea of the thing underneath the thing. But this is really it's simple to implement. You don't need multiple psychology degrees to start practicing with this in a relationship. So and this is actually one of the if we're if I'm going to do some shameless self promotion for you the free guide that I want to make sure people know you have available is kind of this before and after. Here's one way I could approach it. Here's the other way. So you just never clean up the dishes in the kitchen. Right? You just you leave the dishwasher open you leave the plates on the counter. That would be an example of the you you you very, very common challenge. How do we reframe this using this you versus if if you have if I were to come in and I were to work with you with my spouse sitting next to me and it was About You are always doing this thing or that thing or the other thing, and it drives me crazy. How do we use a simple framework to turn that around? What does that look like in real life?

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. Well, I if I was in session, I would ask the person to tell me, how is that for you when your partner leaves the dishes, tell me more about that for you. And so if we can unpack that and understand the person's experience, then we get to be able to frame this in the i statement, which is, I'm going to now reveal to you what happens when the dishes are left in the sink, and the dishes are all over. Here's where I, here's where I am. And then that is a reveal. And when we can reveal or send a request, then our partner is able to usually hear that and respond to that. Am I answering your question?

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I want to get even more specific. And by the way, if anybody's wondering in this relationship, I'm the one that leaves the dishes on the counter. And I'm the one that doesn't clean everything appropriately. So I just want to be very, very clear that I would be the one in this circumstance, if we're going to look at it superficially, I'm the one at fault. Right. So this is definitely more me where I'm the one that will leave the thing sitting around. The The idea being that, let's say that it were in reverse, let's say that I were the one that were casting the aspersions and saying You are the one that leaves the dishes on the counter. And I want to go even one layer deeper, you're such a slob. Now, it's not just there's this thing, but now we're talking about character and identity. This is where conflict really starts to just dig in. Yeah, if I'm, if I'm saying something like, all you do is leave all this stuff on the counter, You're so lazy, and you're such a slob. Talk to me about all of the things that are happening in there, and then how we reverse engineer to be have it just be more about the thing underneath the thing. So it can lead to a resolution rather than just creating more of a divide.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, I want to say I know you want to be super specific. And but I do want to give some context that when we refer to character attacks, or even criticism, for that matter, repetitively, and this can be a little bit of a habit, it can even be a little bit addictive, because it's a short terms, relief. However, it doesn't result to a long term, positive resolution or something that moves the needle. And there's a lot of research that shows the criticism is extremely damaging for the bond, it likely is going to hurt your partner, it's going to hurt the bond, it's not going to create any safety, your partner's likely going to get defensive, not respond to you, you're not going to feel any type of attention around the thing that you need help with. And so your partner is not going to respond. And again, it's going to damage the bond. So to reverse engineer this, I'd similar it's let's look at whatever the hurt is it even though I want to do some character attacks, let's hold that let's pause. Refrain from that impulse. Because likely one grew up in an environment where that was modeled either criticism, one who is highly critical of themselves, or they're in an industry that highly values the intellect. And it's safer to be in the evaluation. And the critical mind. It's not as vulnerable, or even at some point in one's life. They did attempt to be more emotionally vulnerable and it wasn't met. And therefore why would I go there? So it does require slowing down really looking at okay, well, what's going on here? When I want to attack my partner and say that they're lazy? What is it that I'm feeling? What is happening for me? And how can I get in touch with that and make that more visible and vulnerable so that my partner can understand and then work with me? So I feel like I'm not answering your question, because I'm saying something very similar. And you're saying you want more specifics?

Zack Arnold: No, I think I think I think this is totally great. I'm what I'm trying to get into a little bit deeper are some of the simple kind of before and afters that you had, where it was this idea of shifting criticism from connected communication. And I have a couple that I want to throw in there as well. So I guess. Right, so if anybody struggling with the answer, I always know it's because I didn't ask a good enough question because the quality of the answer is dictated by the quality of the question. This is something I talk about with my students all the time and I fall prey to it like anybody else. But let me give you an example of kind of one of the lessons that I've learned personally and how I applied both in the personal relationships in a professional setting where and again just just to frame all this I'm the slob that leaves the stuff on the counter, not my wife but if I were going to apply this in reverse it wouldn't be you are doing this you're such a slob it would be that neutral when this thing happens. So when the dishes are left on the counter, this is how I see it or how it makes me feel. And I found that in learning just how to frame something that simply it completely changes the conversation and the direction that it goes. That to me lends to more listening. As soon as any conversation starts with an attack, or anything, like there's no way it's going to resolve itself. And I want to both go into that. But also kind of to piggyback off of that, I wish I could remember both the statistics behind this in the source. But I learned this years ago, and whether it was a seminar or video, I don't know that I'd like you. I'm guessing you've just you've consumed so much personal development that half the time you're like, I don't know where I learned this from, I want to quote a person I don't even remember. But it was this idea that the vast majority of conflict arises from the way you frame like the first five or 10 seconds of the conversation. Yeah, yeah. So that's probably where I learned because I've gone through a lot of Gottman stuff, but I couldn't remember what it was. But let's talk a little bit more about this idea of how to frame and structure a conversation, and then get to some of these examples where we see them reframed.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Mm hmm. Well, what you're referring to is what they would call a soft startup. So oftentimes, we let the agitation build to the place where it almost erupts. And most of us,

Zack Arnold: That's me by the way, that's me just put that out there. That's me.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right? I mean, we don't want to rock the boat, if there's harmony, and we want to preserve the goodness, we want to feel the joy and the play and the closeness, like why would we want to disrupt that by bringing up an issue. And if it happens enough, and it happens, and we're like, oh, this is the thing, and I've been holding this, and sometimes when we hold, right, it's the classic straw that breaks the camel's back. So it then can be more amplified. And so it can seem more intense or can use harsher language. And that startup meaning the point in which we initiate the conversation with our significant other, that's the start, if it's got a lot of intensity and charge and harshness to it. Likely the partners, the person on the receiving end is not going to feel safe, it's going to feel threatening, and they're not going to want to engage and thus it doesn't typically go very well. And that's the it can be determined and very, you know, short amount of time those first few seconds. So to reverse that is to be more intentional around. Not so what it is, is not reacting, right trying to do our best and not just react and really set us up for success. So to take time to understand what is it that's happening for me, as we've been talking about, and you just spelled out? Can I slow down? Can I get clear on what my reveal is and what my request is, because typically we have an experience. And we also have a desire or a need. Sometimes that's not super crystal clear. But sometimes it is, for example, my husband, it's such a silly example. But he's six, three and has kind of like a size 13 foot but he'll leave his shoes. We lived in California and Santa Barbara, so we it's very comfortable weather and we would we take our shoes off and then the house, and he will leave them right in the pathway that was like why do you do this, and I would get so bothered by it. I realized that if I'm not looking down, it's actually a trip hazard. And I had strong feelings about it. Because I'm like, This feels a little scary if I have groceries or I don't know that they're there. And so I would complain about it. And he didn't quite like it just didn't land. And I don't know that it was like character attacking him. But when I could help him understand, like, hey, like when I need to walk through the doorway. And if I've got groceries and I'm afraid I'm in a trip like or if I have trip like that's really difficult. He can understand. I know this doesn't have a lot of emotional charge to it, but he can see what it is for me and why it's such a challenge. And he wants to help me like typically in relationship when things are you know, more or less good. We can feel that desire to care and show up. Now if I grill him and like You're so lazy, or you don't really think about me and you're just absent minded, or you're leaving your shoes and you're so inconsiderate. Like I'm judging him and I'm critiquing him and again, as we talked about that's going to distract him he's likely going to defend that all the ways he is considerate. And that's not even giving me attention around the thing that I need help with. So to make it into a request and make it into a reveal is going to set it up for success and also to your point having a slow startup or soft startup. That means we have a little Little bit of preparation going into it, that we're not just trying to process with them or unload and let let the vent session begin. Like, that's typically not going to work.

Zack Arnold: Yeah. And when it comes to this idea of the soft startup, another thing that I found helpful too, and you can tell me if this is something that, you know, the research dictates also works, or it's just anecdotal, I don't know. But I found that if you frame whatever the conflict is, with shared common goals, as opposed to here's the immediate negative attack, it makes a big difference. Right? So the, if so if I bring it back into the professional setting, it wouldn't be well, why do you make that music choice, this music choice doesn't work at all. And you know, you're you're not good at editing music, versus right, we're here with the the idea is, we want this to be an awesome training montage. We want people jumping out of their seats and bouncing up and down. I'm not feeling it yet. I think maybe we need to talk about you know, revisiting the music choices. Maybe it's the rhythm of the shots. But you and I both want this to be the same thing. I don't feel like it's there yet. What do you think versus man, you suck at editing montages. And I've gotten notes and feedback and criticism. And again, it's in a solicited space, because that's what I do for a living. But in a solicited space, where it's just short of, you're not good at this thing, as opposed to here's what's not working, but we both want to get this there. And in personal relationships, it's the same. It's okay, clearly, you and I both want our children to have a really good education. But here's where you and I disagree on how to make that happen, as opposed to Why are you doing this thing? Right? I've always found the framing of first one, we're at least in agreement, this is the goal we're working towards. Right? Oh, yeah, of course. Here's where I think we disagree. And I found that that completely changes the direction on the result of getting through the conflict versus at festering

Dr. Jessica Higgins: 100%. And I would also just add that I think it's a good Guiding Light, because I think the one that is even having the issue can be a little preoccupied by their own emotional experience and lose sight of that goal, right? This is where you'll hear people say, Do you want to be right? Or do you actually want to get closer get work together with your partner. And I will say if I'm dysregulated, or in that fight, or flight or want to fight like I can tell inside me, I mean, I've done enough work that this doesn't become that much of a challenge anymore. But man, there are many points. And still, sometimes I will notice, oh, I'm triggered. And I can tell I don't want to say anything nice right now. Or I'm not in service of the goal of us coming to resolution. And so that's a really good thing to be front and center and have in mind, what's the goal here? Because if I'm not in service of that goal, then let's pause.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and of all the notes, all the preparation, that we've done all the work that either I or my Podcast Producer, Debby put together to make sure I get myself get the most out of this conversation first, because I've learned that if I'm not getting value out of it, my audience isn't getting value out of it. There was one phrase of all the things that I'm like, if this needs to be said more than anything else is the most important. And I my guess is you're probably going to agree. But I've learned that the most important skill to develop in any conflict is to learn to take a moment to breathe.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, slowing down is huge. Most of us are moving so fast. We're missing so much about what we're what we're experiencing, and also what's happening in the dynamic.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and this is something you talk about in this idea of listening without defensiveness and it's one of the hardest skills to develop. But in just about any conflict that I've had either personally, or in the working world, what you'll often see is when somebody says something and you can see it because again, I wear my emotions all over my face in my body. When they're done, it's just like okay, now let me talk and it took me years to develop that one skill because I my brain is moving so fast and I was always in reaction mode that I would either say something immediately after even worse, I have a very bad habit of interrupting and I've had to consciously get better at that but just if it for me being a non licensed you know non therapeutic professional somebody said one piece of advice for handling conflict better let the other person talk listen to them and breathe before you speak. That would be all the advice that I would give that could be a game changer and of all the things that I read getting ready for today I could see that you very much agreed with that and the value of that.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Super difficult though. I mean, this is where in one of my programs I we were required to do Aikido, which is a relational martial art.

Zack Arnold: Oh my god. Yes. So did anybody that already knows Aikido? Can I just know how perfect that analogy is to what we're talking about? Where it's because it's all about your you're not attacking, you're all about using their energy and deflecting it passively in other directions, so it's not getting in there. So I'm just going to flow paths. It's like your water letting the other person's energy flow through you as opposed to stopping it. So I love this idea of like verbal Aikido. But yes, continue, I didn't mean interrupt I just excites me.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: No, getting it, it's really difficult. So when we are in conflict, it feels as we're listening, it can feel as though we're being attacked. And we have to, we have a choice, we either have to fight back. And it's almost like I've heard so many people say, if I listen, I'm in, I'm condoning I'm endorsing what they're saying. Like, it just feels like I'm, I'm basically agreeing with you, if I'm not saying anything. So it's this choice between, I'm going to either fight back, or I'm just going to absorb, and that feels crappy. And so this idea of what they would say at least the instructors we were working with, that you would get off this line of attack. So I know for people listening, it's difficult, we don't have a visual, but most of the time, if people are faced off, so facing each other, it can feel as though the attack is coming towards you. And you have a choice to either fight back or kind of move away or absorb. So the goal here would be to step off the line of attack. So it's almost if you imagine a direct line, and then taking one step and also pivoting towards the person, because what they really recommend is, oh, if you take a step off that line, and you turn away, it's kind of what they say, in self defense classes, you want to always keep your eye on the person that seems threatening, right, you don't want to turn your back, that's a very vulnerable position. And so you want to be connected, you want to be able to see the person. But if their verbal attack is still in the direction, right, it's going straight, you've gotten off that line of attack, you're pivoted, so you're still paying attention to them. But then you're almost able to witness it as if it's like a movie or projector and you're like, let's look into this together. And you're almost like you've stepped to step side by side with them not completely, but you're looking at it. And then you're much more in a position to feel your own stability. Because you don't have to contend with the attack, you've gotten off that line of attack. And then you can feel your own power. And then you can also still be in observation still be in contact and in connection with, then you're much more able to respond in the way that you're describing. But it is a difficult thing to do.

Zack Arnold: I love that we're diving into both ninja tactics and now Aikido. Boy, do you boy, do you know the way to the center of my heart very, very quickly. You've done your research. Either manner is totally coincidental. But I'm realizing how absolutely and totally engrossed I've been in this conversation. I don't know how it's possible that we've already been going for 90 minutes. But given that we have, I want to be very respectful of your time. And I know that there are a million different directions that we could go Something tells me that we may be having a part two at some point, because there's a lot more to cover here for sure. But if there were one thing that we didn't talk about today, if somebody is really trying to focus on becoming better at managing criticism, conflict, whether in a personal relationship or a professional one, is there anything that we have not talked about you think they need to know before we wrap up.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I would say that often in the world, the critical thinking skills are very prized and welcomed and, and rewarded, right? When we look at different industries, that we need this skill, whether or not one's an executive, or an attorney, a scientist, a doctor, like all of these industries in the film industry, we need to have these critical thinking skills. So it's a very difficult thing to sometimes come into the home domestic space, the partnership space, without an unintentional like I'm almost going to take that hat off. And not to say that we don't want to think and be in the intellect and bring that because that can be very stimulating and Couplehood. But the the intention and the goals are different. The way of relating is different, that we are wanting to cultivate a sense of connection and safe haven like that we have each other's back and nurturing that bond is the priority. So and that doesn't come through means of these other skills that are highly developed in our in our professional lives. So I do think it can be really helpful to almost like imagine some people work from home some people don't but that's some sort Have a threshold that like now I'm going into this domain. And I can perhaps use other parts of myself. And it doesn't mean that I don't welcome the intellect, but it's not going to be the same driver that it would be if I was working. And I have to remind myself that this too sometimes when I'm in task mode, my husband's like, Whoa, are you like, you're not respecting me? And I remember this is a couple of years ago, and I'm like, What is he talking about? And I reflected on it, I was like, Oh, I've got a lot of deadlines. I'm in task mode. I'm kind of like moving. And maybe I'm not being super soft. I'm not being affectionate. I'm not being in my body and in my heart. And to him, that felt disrespectful. And it was like, oh, like, I didn't even get that. This this space requires a different way of being. And sometimes we lose sight of that.

Zack Arnold: And I think that for anybody that does specifically problem solving, fixing knowledge type work for a living, it's always about you know, when you're a hammer, all you see are nails. So when you see a problem, it immediately goes to how we fix it. And I think just kind of a place to to close it is that what I've learned is that sometimes people just want you to listen, they just want to be heard. They're not looking for solutions. And I know that this this is an ongoing challenge and tool of my that I'm trying to add to my toolset. But sometimes in a personal relationship, it isn't. Let's figure out the solution. It's I just wanted you to hear about my day.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: My husband picked up on I don't know if it was a podcast I did or where he got this buddy. It's really cute. It's something explicit that we use now. He's like, Are you wanting comfort or solution? And

Zack Arnold: I love that. What yeah, having the framework of what do I actually say here was actually one of the questions I was worried I wasn't gonna get to, but you just nailed it. Are you looking for comfort or solutions? Like it could not be any simpler than that? The amount of conflicts in my past that could have avoided that one question game changer.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And so he asked me, I don't even know. And I have to think about it. And I'm like, Oh, I won't come for it. Right. Like, I'm not even aware of what I'm seeking. So to make it really explicit can be helpful.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I think that's an amazing place to leave this very much appreciate your time and your expertise, and absolutely love this conversation. And I want to make sure that for anybody that wants to dig in a little bit deeper, learn more about how to better handle criticism and learn more about you, where's the best place for us to send them?

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, I would say drjessicahiggins.com. And on the homepage, when we'll find the guide that you're referring to, it's a free side by side comparison, real life examples and language to work with around what a critical tendency might look like or languaging. And how much more of this revealing requesting, setting up for more connected communication would look like and the language around that. And yeah, the website has my podcast and other things that people can engage in.

Zack Arnold: I love it. Well, your time is very valuable. Your expertise is even more valuable. You've given both to me and my audience, and I'm very grateful for that. So thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Zack, it's been so fun talking with you. And I really appreciate your wisdom and your experience and I can feel the rigor and the richness of what you offer. And I'm honored to be a part of your show.

Zack Arnold: Well coming from you, that means a lot to me. So thank you so much.

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Zack Arnold

A Psychologist’s Guide to Building Relationships and Managing Conflict (Both Personally and Professionally) | With Dr. Jessica Higgins

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