Episode Highlights

• What Michael has been up to since his last appearance on the podcast
• The challenges of working from home as an extrovert
• Learning to not assume that everyone knows how demanding your position is
• The importance of learning to relate to other people as an up and coming creative
• Michael’s history with ADD and Depression
• Confusing being depressed with being an unmotivated person
• Finding the strength to function when you feel unable to keep going
• Reminding yourself that you are not alone in your struggles
• Therapy as an essential confrontation practice with your depression

Useful Links

• Michael Kammes
• “5 THINGS”
• BeBop Technology
• Integrative Medicine Resources

About Guest

Michael Kammes has designed and built thousands of production and post-production systems, workflows, and facility integrations during his nearly 20 years as a technology advisor in the media and entertainment industry. He is a frequent keynote speaker on trends, products, and workflows in production and post technology and his “5 THINGS” podcast draws an audience of industry insiders from around the world.

Michael currently serves as the Director of Business Development at cloud solutions provider BeBop Technology in Los Angeles.

In addition to the technical side of media creation, Michael’s creative work includes the roles of Dialogue Editor, SFX Editor, ADR Recordist & Editor, Re-Recording Mixer, and Supervising Sound Editor.

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Transcript

Zack Arnold: I’m here today with Michael Kammes, who is the creator and host of the Five Things Tech Series, and he’s also the director of business development at Bebop Technology, and on top of that, he’s also a returning guest to the show, which very few people can actually put on their resume. So, Michael, welcome back to the show a second time.

Michael Kammes: Thank you so much, Zack. I’m excited to put this on my LinkedIn resume that I’m that I’ve returned for another jaunt with you. So, this is fantastic. Thank you.

Zack Arnold: Well, absolutely. So, I’m going to make sure to put a link in the show notes to our first interview, which may or may not be somewhat similar to the conversation that we have today. I’m just going to warn you in advance and warn the audience in advance. I have absolutely no questions in front of me. I have no agenda whatsoever. This is just going to be two guys that are chatting, but we are going to have a little bit of a focus to today’s conversation, and that’s going to be mental health. So, I’m releasing this during October, which is Mental Health Awareness Month, and the reason that this came up, and this came up kind of suddenly, recently you had posted a video about your five things web series, which had been on hiatus, and it wasn’t the usual, here’s this new tip or gadget or workflow or do dad or all this other stuff that I don’t understand that I call you about and say, Michael, explain this to me, because I’m a moron, right? It wasn’t about that, it was about something very different, so I could talk about it, but I have you here, so I want you to introduce the audience to what brought us together for this conversation in the first place.

Michael Kammes: Okay. Okay. With that, I’ll see if I can put that into a concise phrase. The video I put out was kind of an update to five things, not only to discuss, you know, where I’ve been professionally, but that over the past year there’s been kind of an emotional and mental blocker for me doing these five things episodes, and a lot of that stems from kind of chronic depression that I’ve had, you know, since I can remember, you know, since junior high and high school, and it’s really not something that gets talked about enough, I think. And after confiding in some folks in my inner circle, and you kind of tend to realize that a lot of folks have the same depression, or at least facets of it, but it’s not something that gets talked about often, and I thought, if I could be brave, I guess to use that phrase, and talk about this, not looking for sympathy, but as a form of awareness that perhaps others would speak out about it, and some of the things that run rampant in the tech and creative industry that may bubble to the surface, and it would be something that can start to be talked about a little bit more.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and that’s that’s exactly why you’re here. It’s all about awareness, and there are very few people that are willing to speak as honestly and openly and authentically as you did in your video, and there’s no question that we are going to be going deep down the rabbit hole, talking about mental health and depression, and I don’t even know where this conversation might go. I know that I’ve talked about this ad nauseum, and I joked offline before we started recording that I don’t know if I can share anything else with my audience. They’ve heard pretty much all of it at this point, but who knows where it’s gonna go. But before we go down the mental health rabbit hole, and talk about all of this stuff. What I want to give first-time listeners that are unaware of you, I want to give them a little bit clearer picture of just what you do and what your lifestyle looks like, because I think a lot of people listening are going to think, oh my god, that sounds a lot like me, but I want to paint a clear picture of just what your day, your week, your month looks like, just what does your life look like, and then once we kind of get a clear picture of who Michael Kammes is, then we can dive in a little bit deeper.

Michael Kammes: Well, for the past decade or so, it’s been a lot of consulting with various clients around the country, and especially here in LA, about what they’re doing with media, how they’re capturing media, whether it’s from a camera, whether they’re getting it from a client, whether it’s from a webcam, How are they storing it? How are they editing it? How are they doing VFX? What are they editing on? What kind of storage? How are they getting it out to exhibition? So, anything that involves the kind of media life cycle, the companies I’ve worked for, I’d consult on. I’d consult on those workflows, and the other half of the day was learning about gear, because obviously there’s more than one manufacturer in the industry, and you have to learn more about this technology. Other times would be taken up with, you know, evangelism, which is anyone that follows me on social media knows that I’m no stranger to social media, so putting things out there to engage with the general tech and creative public on what they do and what they’re looking for, and then about a year ago I pivoted and kind of minimized that role a little bit and went to work for a startup, and that startup, which is Bebop Technology, which is. I’m editing with some of your favorite creative tools in the cloud. I’m still consulting, but instead of going into an office where there’s 30 or 40 other people, I’m working out of my home office, and I’m working in a different paradigm, because I’m working for a manufacturer rather than a consultancy or a reseller, and that’s really changed what I do on a day-to-day basis, in terms of how I approach it, because I’m kind of isolated working from home, as opposed to being around people all day.

Zack Arnold: It’s funny, because most of the people listening to this right now are probably like me, and they’re very socially awkward introverts, and they’re like, “Oh my god, working from home in isolation, that’s my dream. But the funny thing is, I remember you and I had a conversation when we had lunch a few months ago about how you and I are so similar until we use the words introvert and extrovert. So, talk to me about the challenges of working by yourself from home, given that you yourself are a little bit more extroverted than

Michael Kammes: I. I tend to feed off, I won’t say crowds, but groups of people, I relish the fact of being able to convey technology and ideas and concepts and new ideas to folks who may not have thought in that vein before. And when you’re sitting in front of someone, or a group of people, or a crowd of people, or 100 people, you can read the room and you can determine how to change how you’re phrasing things, or the examples you give, the similes you use to that room. And when you work kind of by yourself, you don’t get that you have to rely on, well, what was the inflection in their voice in the video conference, or you have to rely on talking to someone over the phone, which is not always the best way of communicating, or via email, which is the worst way of communicating, and so, for an extrovert like me, that’s very difficult to do. So, having to be home and channel that how I act as an extrovert into being an introvert has had a lot of challenges over the past year.

Zack Arnold: Well, it’s funny, you’ve already triggered an idea in my mind, which is we’re going to need to do a part three to talk about networking, because I’ve already heard like five things that I want to talk more about and dig into, but I am going to stray away from the shiny object syndrome, of which I am very..

Michael Kammes: I will say that is a fantastic idea, and of all of the education that I’ve seen out there regarding, you know, Avid 101 or Adobe 101 or Final Cut boot camp. It’s always how and to learn the technical tool, or how to tell a story with that tool. It’s never been how do you relate to people, and I think that it’s something that gets overlooked because it’s not considered paramount or of massive importance, and it’s kind of hard to measure that with a metric, but if there was one course I think that every aspiring creative should have is how to network, how to interact with others on a creative level, or even a business level, because that’s going to propel you far.

Zack Arnold: Well, it’s funny, you may just be talking to the guy that’s in the middle of building that flagship course, as we speak, nudge nudge wings, yeah, right, but like I said, shiny object syndrome alert is going off on my computer, it’s actually blowing out my entire monitor right now, so I’m going to make sure I don’t, don’t go, go after the shiny object, but what I do want to bring up is the fact that I find it so funny that what you’re thinking, well, the best way for me to sell is going to a room of 100 or 200 people, and I’m thinking, how can I change the way that I relate to them, and my body language, and the stories that I tell, and I, and many other people listening, are thinking, oh my god, there’s a room full of 200 people, and I don’t know anybody, and I don’t know how to start a conversation, and they’re going to think I’m stupid, and I don’t know what to say, and oh my god, it’s so much easier to just do this via email and social media. The reason I bring that up is not to go deeper into the topic of networking, it is to talk more about mental health, because I know that for me, the deeper I’ve gone down into the dark hole of depression or anxiety, it’s that much harder for me to get out into the world and network with people, because I have to use so much of my energy to hide it. So, there are periods where I’ve gone through.. I actually, I went through.. I’m not bipolar, but I’ve gone through what’s called a bipolar episode, where I mean, I was basically.. I was a mess, I could barely function, and I just got hired for a major TV pilot, and I’m thinking I can’t even get out of bed. I’m curled up in the fetal position for 10 hours a day, and I have to work on a massive TV pilot. How am I going to do that? I found a way to get through it. I mustered up the energy, and when I talked to people 369, months later, they’re like, I had no idea you are a pleasure to work with, and I thought they had no idea what it takes. So, what I’m curious about, do you experience the same thing with depression, or for you, as being around people something that helps, as opposed to being even harder?

Michael Kammes: That’s a very interesting question. In the role that I have now at Bebop, it’s not like an editor who. May have to have a cut done by the end of the week, or this past done, or this past done, or deliverables due. A lot of it is rather nebulous, so that makes it for me, at least, that much tougher, because there is no, the buzzer is going to sound at 5o’clock this has to be done, it’s kind of wishy-washy, and when you’re depressed, it’s very difficult to get the self motivation to accomplish something, so without that hard deadline, it becomes difficult to muster up enough gumption, and I hate that word, but it’s tough to muster up the energy or desire to do that, and one of the things, in kind of a tangent, I wanted to mention mental health doesn’t get talked about a lot, and I, and I was doing some serious thinking about why, and of course, we can go back to the whole, you know, nuclear family, head of the household, 5060s mentality, where the man doesn’t cry, and the man is the breadwinner, and sucks it up, and goes to work every day, and if we take that out of the equation, I think there’s several things that people who are depressed share in common with people who are, shall we say, just not motivated. If you’re unmotivated to do something just because that’s your nature, right, you’re going to watch more TV, or maybe lay around more and not maybe not work later and just take the easy way out through things and when you’re depressed that’s what happens as well and I think because there’s that bleed over that that perceived well you’re doing the same things as someone who is lazy and not depressed that your symptoms are minimized, and I think what I’d love folks to understand is that although there is that bleed over, it doesn’t mean that it’s not valid.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, but why can’t you just snap out of it, Michael? Just get a couple of good nights of sleep, and you’ll be fine. I just don’t get what the problem is.

Michael Kammes: It’s.. it’s like, have you ever had a problem with maybe iron in your blood? Ever been anemic at all?

Zack Arnold: I have not. No.

Michael Kammes: Okay, but you’re aware that if you don’t have enough iron in your blood, you’re anemic. Doctor gives you an iron pill, you take an iron pill. If you have hay fever, you take allergy medication, right? Depression, in some sense, is very similar to that. You may not see that someone has low iron in their blood, but does that minimize what they’re going through, that they may be dizzy, they may be lightheaded. No, and depression has those symptoms that sometimes aren’t seen, and so I think once we start to normalize it as being valid, and that there can be a diagnosis of it. I think we’ll start to see a lot more acceptance of it, and I think that’s one good thing about the social media culture we have now, is that things are being normalized, things we didn’t talk about, you know, 1520 years ago, you know, or let me rephrase that, things that we didn’t yell about to the general public 1520 years ago, we’re seeing a lot more activity in terms of gender equality, in terms of pay gaps, in terms of the trans movement, etc. And those are things that certainly were known, but they weren’t really talked about on the massive scale they are like they are in social media, and I think because of that it’s getting out to the general public, and I think that’s why discussing depression now is a perfect time, because there is this conduit to get out to a larger group of people,

Zack Arnold: And I think that the, the important thing that I really want to extract from this, that has changed so much in the last 10 years, and I agree with everything you’re saying about how it is becoming more normalized, and I think that for me, and I’ve heard this from so many people all over the world now. I get basically people send me their life stories, and I’ve gotten them from six of the seven continents. So, either there are no depressed people in Antarctica, or there are just no editors in Antarctica, or there are no people – not sure which, maybe all three. But other than that, I get the same email, it’s like people copy and paste this template about the challenges they’re going through, and they send it to me, and I get it all the time. And the commonality, I think, at least in our industry and in creative industries, is that we work a relatively solitary existence. So I know that for me, when all of this began, I was experiencing all of it by myself in a small dark room thinking, well, everybody else has this figured out. This job can’t be that hard. What’s wrong with me? Why am I the weak one? I don’t get why I can’t keep up with everybody else. And what I realized is everybody is saying the exact same thing to themselves all over the world, not realizing there are hundreds of 1000s, if not millions, of people having the same conversation in their own mind, and I think that’s one of the things that social media has really changed, is allowing us to have those conversations with other people and realize, oh, it’s not just me, right? So that’s the reason that we’re doing this conversation, so somebody else that might be listening, sitting in a small dart room, saying I. I can’t take this anymore. Oh, it’s not because I’m weak, it’s not because it’s just me, it’s everybody. It’s rampant, it’s an epidemic. It is the rule, it’s not the exception.

Michael Kammes: I think creatives also tend to find themselves in their head quite a bit, because, as you say, they are in a, you know, a dark box for most the day, and as a creative, especially if you’re working in a multi-tiered environment, like feature film or television, is that a majority of your day are people telling you we don’t like the way you did things, we want you to change it to wait to the way we want things to be, and that by its very nature is telling you that your outlook isn’t what we were looking for,

Zack Arnold: And I think that the danger that comes with doing this creative work, and I – this is another thing that I hear from so many of my clients – is one of the major reasons that they experience depression is they have attached their identity to their work, so it’s not just, well, during the day I’m an editor or a designer or whatever their creative job may be, that’s who I am as a person, and I remember I used to think that I actually use that as like a tagline to sell myself. I don’t edit for a living, I’m an editor, it’s who I am, right? And I realized that’s actually really, really dangerous, especially like you said, when your entire existence at your job is to have people tell you all day long, here’s what you did wrong, and here’s why I want to change it. When you tie that to your identity, it’s very easy to get depressed very quickly.

Michael Kammes: One thing I should probably caution folks who are listening to this is that I don’t have all the answers. I’m not out of depression, I’m in depression, so you know, whatever I say, please don’t take as gospel, but I am right there. I’ve always joked that my wife and I, I live to work, she works to live, and she can come home and turn it off, and you know, be a fantastic partner, whereas me, I do define myself by what I do and what I have accomplished, at least in the, in the professional vein, and you’re right, it is dangerous, because you set this bar for yourself that you’re never going to amount to, you’re never going to measure up, because there’s always something you think you should be doing, or something you could be doing better, or more of, and that’s part of the depression spiral, is that you decide not to do something because you feel so bad, or so worthless, and then you get on yourself for not doing the things you think you should be doing, and then you get completely mad that you’ve wasted this time not doing the things you should be doing, or you think you should be doing, and then you start getting into, well, I’m using the word should, and it becomes this just a horrible downward spiral, and after 30 years, I still have not found the one way ticket out of there.

Zack Arnold: Well, I’m not really sure that there is a one way ticket, I think that that’s another thing that we can definitely talk about, is the fact that you know if it’s something that you experience because you know something happened, an external event, and this is actually something we could talk a little bit more about if you want. We certainly don’t have to, but I know that one of the things that precipitated this most recent episode for you, in addition to the fact that you would change jobs, which I believe is on the top five list of most stressful things you can go through, like divorce and whatnot, and death of a loved one is right up there, and that’s something that you experienced all during the same period of time, but that’s an external event that would cause anybody to go into some form of depression for a certain period, but what you’ve been talking about, and what we’re talking about so far, is this inward type of depression, where it’s not because of an external event, it’s this idea, and this is one of the most, probably the most life-changing thing that I was ever taught, and I was taught this by my doctor, who I’ve been seeing for like 15 years now, who’s helped me make this transformation. He said depression is simply anger turned inward, so you’re like you said, you’re just so angry at yourself for all the things that you should be able to do, that you should be doing, or that you shouldn’t be doing. That’s a really big one, that’s a vicious cycle of all the things you’re doing that you know you shouldn’t be. But then there’s also the depression that’s caused by something that’s happened externally, and you experienced the perfect cocktail of both over the course of the last year or year and a half.

Michael Kammes: Definitely, when you’re, when you’re diagnosed as being depressed, you normally, you know, at least with medicine here in the US, you’re you’re put on pills, right? And then, and that medication takes weeks or months to take effect, and then you have a sync up with your doctor, and it was this work, no, does this work? No. And then once you find something, hopefully you’re on it, and then you gain weight, lose weight, you know, hit puberty, get married, whatever, life changes. And then you change to different drugs, and so it’s an ongoing process. So it’s a tidal wave that I kind of rode over the past 20 or 30 years, and I found I thought was a kind of equilibrium, and I knew my body well enough to know, okay, you know, I’m grumpy today. Is it because A, I’m hungry, or B, I’m tired, or C, my meds aren’t working, or I forgot to take them, but 18 months ago my parents passed away, I. And it was sudden, it was tragic, and it was rather public the way it happened. I don’t need to get into details, but there was press and there was court and all these things, which, which are stressful in and of themselves, but when you’re dealing with I’m burying my parents, you know, when you’re dealing with being the only child and executor of their wills, and doing all these things that are already gut-wrenching, and then you have to deal with, you know, a press and deal with all these other external stressors that really shouldn’t be there, and then having some of the ramifications of that passing affect your daily work, and then changing jobs. I mean, as you said, it was a perfect storm, and that kind of sent me down the kind of depression drain pipe. And that’s about the time that five things went on hiatus, because I just.. I didn’t feel my opinion mattered. I didn’t feel like I had anything else to say. I didn’t think that I felt like I was shouting into a void. I felt I was lying if I got on camera and said something, and so it had to kind of had to go on mute. And unfortunately, like I said, I wish I could say that, hey, my meds are great now, and I’ve dropped 30 pounds, and I’m, I’m kicking ass and taking names, and I’m gonna go be on American Ninja Warrior with Zack, but the fact is, is that it’s not – I’m still getting up in the morning and looking in the mirror and being like, okay, I got to do this again, and you know, every morning going by medicine cabinet and saying, okay, I got to take these four pills and these two pills, and what do I have to do today to keep my shit together? Whether it’s, you know, what I got to take a shower and do something repeatable, because repeatable makes it a habit, makes it easier to do. Is it walking the dog? Is it, you know, making tea for my wife? It’s just something to keep me going one foot in front of another. The good thing is that when a lot of folks do get depressed, there’s always the inevitable, well, are they suicidal? And that’s obviously a very scary and very difficult conversation to have. I’m very fortunate in that there folks taking their own lives in my family isn’t something that is foreign. It’s there’s been several instances in my family, so growing up, not that it was normalized, but it was something that I knew could be an end result of depression or addiction. And so I’ve made it a conscious effort that when I meet with doctors, whether it be a psychiatrist or psychologist or a GP to say, hey, I have this history in my family. If I’m doing things which may signal that things are going really dark, whether it’s weight gain, whether it’s I look bad, whether I’m asking for more prescription drugs, you know, I’m giving you a heads up to be my kind of watch guard, you know, to kind of check and see if things are going okay, and because of that, you know, the whole, the whole suicide thing has never been a, I’ve never gone that dark,

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I’m probably in a similar camp as you, not so much with the family history, but if we’re gonna, you know, we’re just gonna be honest and you know really jump right in and you know peel off the veneer if we’re talking about the suicide conversation. I’ve never been at the point where I’ve done any planning, but there was a point that I hit, I don’t know, in one of my first major episodes in my mid 20s where the only thought that went through my mind was I don’t want to live another day, I can’t do this anymore. Never got to the point where I acted on it, but those that was the only relevant thought in my mind from the moment that I barely woke up every morning to every waking hour where I barely function was I’m done. Just can I do this anymore? I have no passion for any of the people in my life, I have no passion for my craft. The story that I’ve told in the past, and I’ve written about as well, so I won’t go too deep into it, but kind of the inciting incident that made me realize that there was a real problem was I spent, I think, probably a month and a half straight on the couch for 14 hours a day watching reruns of Law and Order Special Victims Unit. That alone can make any person suicidal, whether they have mental health issues or not.

Michael Kammes: And you probably didn’t even get through every episode, too.

Zack Arnold: No, I probably hit like season seven. And keep in mind this was before streaming, so I was doing this with whatever was on the USA Network at the time, so there was no like organized way of doing it back then. But I remember at one point I had just moved in with my girlfriend, and how she’s still with me to this day. After this, I don’t know, but she said, “Can you take out the trash? And I lost it, because the thought in my mind of having to take out the trash, go outside, go down three flights of steps, possibly see a human being, and prioritize that. With all of the other things going on in my life, i.e. watching special victims unit was too much for me to handle. That’s how overwhelmed my nervous system was. And all I kept thinking was, I’m done, I can’t do it anymore. But I’ve never planned. But one of the interesting things is I hit that same place about, see, about two years ago, maybe two and a half years ago now, and this is something that when people do the math, they’re like, “Wait a second, I thought this was something that happened to you a long time ago, and you’re mr. Recovery, and you’re the poster child for, like, you said, American Ninja Warrior, and health, and all this. You’re never somebody that deals with depression that’s recovered; you’re always recovering. It’s no different than an alcoholic. An alcohol

Michael Kammes: Depression doesn’t go away.

Zack Arnold: It doesn’t go away. It’s always there. You just learn how to manage it at certain degrees, and I’ve learned how to manage mine at a very high degree. But two and a half years ago, I was lying in the fetal position in my bed, thinking, “Oh my god, my family would be so much better off if I were not alive

Michael Kammes: Completely. And, like I said, I wasn’t at that point, but, but the reason I can identify with that is because it’s not that I want to die, it’s that I feel like garbage, and I don’t want to feel like garbage anymore, so it’s so there is a distinction there. What is a way for me to not feel this way? Well, I can drink myself and do oblivion, I can, you know, do hardcore drugs, or so I’m just numbed out. And I think that’s why a lot of people who are depressed turn to addictive substances, because it’s anything you can do to not feel like you have been feeling you need a new normal, and no other way has has fixed that. In fact, I got a good story for you. So, as you know, here in California, marijuana has become just ubiquitous, right? It’s legal, you can get CBD, THC, whatever. You know, over the course of my life, I’ve, you know, smoked, I don’t know, a dozen times or so, it’s never been something that did anything for me. I’d much rather drink. So, when I left my last job, and about a year ago, and this was going down, and it was now legal, I thought, you know what, everyone’s pontificating about CBD being a numerical drug. So I got a vape pen. This is before they started, you know, causing vape long, I got a vape pen, and I started experimenting, and what was hysterical is that any illusion that I may have portrayed to someone that I’m cool, this story will blow it away, because what I started doing was measuring how long I was inhaling and how much, because, and because you know me and being an engineer and being analytical, I was annotating all this because I was struggling to find a mix of vape or edible and CBD versus THC and what kind and what manufacturer, what times the day, and how much I had eaten, and because I wanted to, I needed to find something to not feel the way I was, and something that I could do without, you know, wrecking my liver on on drinking, or you know, doing, you know, worse drugs, so any kind of, any kind of enjoyment from, from the marijuana, from the, from the vape pen got completely lost, because I, because for about four months, that’s all I did was try and find some way to not feel bad with weed, and it didn’t work.

Zack Arnold: So, basically, you have it, you have like a vaping spreadsheet.

Michael Kammes: I do, I do, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would go to different dispensaries around, around where I live, and this is going to be so mean, but I would find the oldest person there, because I had so many instances where I’d be talking to someone who was very young and knew just as little as I did, didn’t know a thing, and I’d go into each of these dispensaries and say, look, this is the kind of pen I have, I need a cartridge, I need something that’s a little bit more than this, a little bit less than that. I need something that has a little bit more CBD than THC, and it just.. it didn’t work. It became an expensive habit that didn’t solve a thing, and I actually found that it made things worse, at least with my body chemistry. If I were to smoke a lot the next day, I felt even worse than I would have if I hadn’t smoked.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I’m right there with you as well. I didn’t, certainly didn’t experiment at that level, and I think I’ve maybe only smoked, I don’t know, four or five times, but it was enough for me to realize that it did not work with my chemistry and the experience, you know, immediately while I was doing it. Sure, you know, like most other people, you know, maybe feel a little bit less anxious, a little bit more open. I laughed a little bit, and then the next week it was just Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

Michael Kammes: It was a hangover. It’s all, it was almost like a hangover. Yeah,

Zack Arnold: I would have, I would have taken an alcohol hangover any day over what I got from smoking. So it, for me, that’s just a no-no. It’s that’s the way that I’m genetically wired, but I. One of the things that I want to go a little bit deeper on, and I think this is really important for anybody that’s dealing with mental health issues, and a lot of other issues, for that matter, but specifically with mental health issues, like you mentioned, it’s all about how do I just get away from the way that I feel right now, and it’s trying to escape that feeling of whether it’s physical pain or emotional pain or lack of any feeling whatsoever, that’s another thing that I would experience, where I just didn’t feel a thing, happy, sad, nothing. It was like, am I even alive? I didn’t even know what it felt like to be alive. I just felt like a zombie, and you try to do anything to change that state, but a lot of times it’s about trying to step away from whatever that pain is, and what I found is that the best way to alleviate it was going towards it, and the way that I went towards it was through therapy, and this is something that I’ve talked about extensively. I can put a link in the show notes to the psychoanalysts that I worked with that really kind of helped me unpack this, but you had mentioned therapy as well, so is that something that you’ve kind of had as part of this regiment for the last couple of years?

Michael Kammes: I’m going to go off on a little bit of a soap box, because I’ve had therapy when I was, when I was younger, you know, in my 20s, but since I’ve been to California, I’ve had nothing but nightmares, and a lot of this is because of the division between your psychiatrists and your psychologists or therapists, right? You have psychiatrists who are the ones that are writing the scripts, and the ones that I’ve seen are treat them and street them, where you tend to walk in and they make sure you’re not looking for a drug, you know, they give you five minutes of time, maybe 10 minutes, then write, get prescription done. Okay, but let’s get to the bottom of why you need these drugs. You go see a therapist or a psychologist, and they could be trained by any number of witch doctors, or actually medical doctors, but they don’t have the power to prescribe, and I find that having this division where they’re not working in tandem, it’s hard to determine, is the prescription working right. Let’s talk, let’s talk in therapy about x, y, and z. What happened you were younger? What happened last week? And when those, when the talking about it, and the prescriptions, when those aren’t in sync, it’s a shot in the dark, and in the past year I’ve had four different psychologists, and all of them have been – they would cancel three sessions in a row for random reasons. Just this week I went to go see one, and I went to go see a psychiatrist that writes me the scripts, and oh, she left the practice, she’s no longer practicing, no heads up, no nothing. And so I find that it’s been nothing but a nightmare here, and also with the medical system here in the US, is that when you need to see a doctor again here in California, if I want to find someone, a, I have to look for them online, be asking them a call and see if they’re accepting new clients, which most aren’t, and then there’s a wait list for weeks, or sometimes you know, even longer. So I’ve had nothing but bad luck finding a combination of psychologists and psychiatrists, and so while in my mind I want to believe that therapy is still a good option. I’ve had nothing but bad luck over the past couple years, and I would welcome recommendations.

Zack Arnold: Well, then you, my friend, are talking to the right person, and I’m so glad that you brought this up. And this is why I didn’t have an agenda or have questions, because I had no idea where this conversation would go. I cannot stress enough how much I agree with this idea of both of these ideas working as one, because yes, with the Western American medical system, it’s essentially, well, let’s find out what the symptom is, and here’s what treats the symptom. The symptom is you’re depressed. Here’s a pill that helps to treat that symptom of depression and make you feel a little bit better, but most likely that person isn’t saying what’s contributing to the depression. What is the source of the depression? It’s just, well, let’s alleviate the symptom. Let’s take this acute pain, whatever you’re experiencing right now, let’s change that state for you, and let’s make sure periodically that the pill is doing what it’s supposed to do to alleviate that symptom, that’s because that’s easy, and that also makes billions of dollars. So, why in the world would you change that? But then, like you said, on the flip side, when you have the people that can really kind of dig into your mind and understand psychology, they don’t have the power to say, well, you know what, it seems like you’re in a pretty dark place right now. It doesn’t seem like just talking about those experiences in your past are making that much of a difference, but there’s really nothing else I can do, because I don’t have the power to add medication into the mix.

Michael Kammes: Or they even say yes, you should go see a psychiatrist, a psychiatrist, and I don’t know anything about those drugs, so you have to talk to them about it. There’s a, almost a kind. Conscious dividing line, and to bring this back to creatives, I’m sure you’ve met some video editors, some film editors who don’t touch sound, right? They do the bare minimum with sound because they don’t want to get involved at something else, and that’s almost how I’m seeing this paradigm, which is this is what I know I’m good with talking about trauma when you, when you were younger, or abuse, or something along those lines, but when it comes to drugs, well, that’s a different department, you got to go down the hall for that, and there’s just this line in the sand, and unfortunately, it makes treating mental illness very difficult.

Zack Arnold: Yes, I couldn’t agree more, and we’re definitely going to have to have an offline conversation after this, because I have several recommendations that I could give you, but even on the record, during this conversation, for anybody that’s listening, having the same struggle, without going too deep into specifics and details, and contact information, and all that other stuff, but I was lucky enough to find this combination when I first began this journey 15 years ago, and have been working with a team of people where they do exactly what you’re looking for, where you have the medical doctor that understands prescription medication, that has a really deep background in chemistry. He even formulates his own medications and supplements, so he really understands chemistry, but in his mind you treat the patient, you don’t treat the symptom. So let’s figure out where all of this is coming from. And the approach with me was, all right, you’re clearly in a really bad place. We need to take the edge off if we’re going to be able to do any real work, because you’re not going to be willing or have the energy or the gumption, so to speak. So I know you love the word gumption, you’re not going to have the motivation to make these changes if we don’t chemically start to rebalance your brain, but beyond that, we’re only going to use that for a short enough period of time where we can understand what are the lifestyles, what are the behaviors, what is the psychology that led you to this place, and they specialize in all right, we have the medical doctor, we have the psychologist, everybody’s talking to each other, they also have other specialties that can help you with all these various areas, but without having all of them work in tandem, like you said, it’s just all these walled-off corridors of people that are saying, well, this is the way that I look at it, right? So it’s this idea of if you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail,

Michael Kammes: So you need a post supervisor for mental health,

Zack Arnold: Exactly. It’s funny because the place that I’ve worked with for the last 15 years, that’s a really good analogy. That’s essentially what they do. I’ll put a link to this place, it’s called the Akasha Center. There are a lot more clinics like this now, but 15 years ago, when it opened, it was one of the first of its kind, even in California, I think. But it’s this, it’s something called integrative medicine. So another thing that I can put in the show notes is a link to the tag that I have on my website for all of my integrative medicine resources, and for anybody thinking, “Oh my god, he’s going to cure depression with incense and sage, this bunch of California hippy dippy bullshit, right? It’s not, it really, it starts with the Western medical side, but it infuses lifestyle over treating symptoms, and that’s the reason that I’m able to do what I am today. Otherwise, I would probably still be in a, you know, a drunken, drugged-up stupor, because somebody said, “Well, the pills seem to be working, so I guess I’ll just keep giving them to you, and the fundamental question that was always asked that was different than the regular traditional Western medical system. Is all right, you’re feeling better now. How can we keep you here without the medication? And that’s a paradigm shift. It’s like, wow, I never would have thought to ask that, but how can I feel this way, or even better, but without the medication? And that was all about lifestyle, and that’s a lot of the stuff that I teach, is what I’ve been doing over the last 15 years to improve my lifestyle and my health, not just because I want to be healthy, or I want to look good, or I want to have energy, or I want to be an American Ninja Warrior, it’s because American Ninja Warrior is my antidepressant.

Michael Kammes: Sorry, I’m thinking that over

Zack Arnold: Paradigm shift,

Michael Kammes: It completely is, and I’m trying to think, what is my antidepressant, and I realized that, aside from the prescription drugs, I really don’t have one,

Zack Arnold: And one thing that I want to make very, very clear to you, and the entire listening audience of all 14 of you that are out there, I’m not saying medication or antidepressants are bad, and you shouldn’t take them. I’m not saying that at all. What I’m saying is that for some people there are alternatives, and for a long time I didn’t think there was an alternative for me, so like you were talking about, I was on the roller coaster for I think it was about 12 years, where I would go on a medication, and I don’t know, five or six different antidepressants, they would work well for a while, then they would start not working so well, then they would work really well, and then they wouldn’t work at all, and then I would have. Depressive episode, and what I found is, like, you were talking about trying to find something to help change that state, and one thing that I find is often linked, and it’s not just me finding it, it’s in a lot of the research that a lot of people that deal with depressive symptoms also have addictive personalities, so you were saying that for you, alcohol is one of those things that helps change that state. My addiction was, and it’s still something I’m working on, but it very much was work, so I was a workaholic. That was the thing that helped change the state, because of what you said, going back to it earlier, I needed the deadlines, and I needed the adrenaline to not just feel like a completely useless lump that couldn’t accomplish anything, so for me that was the addiction, but I would go in and out for years through these cycles of different medications, but when it was posed to me, let’s see if there’s an alternative, that’s when my mind really started to think, hmm, how could I do this right? So I want to make it very clear to people, this isn’t about, oh, medication is bad, and I’m not, you know, Tom Cruise yelling at Brooke Shields, saying just take vitamin C and you won’t be depressed, like I don’t. It’s not about any of that bullshit. However, there can be a paradigm shift in the way that we think as a society where the pills are absolutely useful in certain use cases, but to chronically take them because we don’t want to do some of the harder introspection and work that we can do to change lifestyles, that I think is a shame, and one of the things that I really disdain about our medical system the most.

Michael Kammes: I can’t disagree. I often wish I had the insight that you have now regarding these things, and unfortunately, there’s a big difference between the, you know, knowing the path and walking the path, right? I mean, you can read the show notes from today, and maybe the transcript, but until I think you experience it, and you walk in those shoes, and you come to that realization that just popping a pill isn’t solving the underlying issue of there being trauma when you were younger, or you know, or something else that happened when you, when you know, in previous incarnations, until you really believe that I don’t think anything is really going to take it’s almost like hitting that rock bottom where you have that realization of I need help, and that either comes with addiction or it comes, I think, with mental health.

Zack Arnold: Exactly. Yes. And it’s funny that you said there’s a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. And I think the first step to making that transition is really knowing the path, and what I find with so many people that I work with, and I now specialize in helping them design the path away from wherever they don’t want to be to the place that they do want to be, and when it comes to lifestyle and mental health and lack of work-life balance, this is an area that I’ve spent helping a lot of people with now, and I think that when it comes specifically to mental health and depression, and I’m speaking to a lot of people, but I’m also speaking kind of just to you right now, so I’m almost kind of thinking of this like a mini coaching call, so to speak. I think the first step in being able to answer the question, is there an alternative to the medication, is understanding yourself and your genetics, because it’s one thing for me to say, well, American Ninja Warrior is my antidepressant, but the reason that I know that works is because I understand my genetic makeup, and that’s another thing that has changed so much in the last 10 or 15 years, where it used to be, well, I’m depressed, well, but am I depressed, or am I sad, or am I just having a bad day, or do I need to get a couple of nights of sleep, or whatever it is, versus no, I’m genetically wired for depression. You could say to somebody, “Well, yeah, I’m type one diabetic, and nobody’s going to say, “Oh, well, just sleep it off, right? That would be

Michael Kammes: Just like the iron deficiency analogy,

Zack Arnold: Just like the iron deficiency, like that. That’s the perfect analogy. So nobody says, “Well, you know, you don’t need insulin for type one diabetes, you just need to get some sleep and snap out of it, right? Right. Nobody says that, but the thing with depression is you can now measure it. You can measure your neurotransmitters, which you could not do 15 years ago, and you can get your genetics tested to know if you are genetically predisposed to depression and or anxiety.

Michael Kammes: I wasn’t aware of that.

Zack Arnold: Yes, and that’s why I’m bringing it up, because it sounds like there’s a whole rabbit hole that you can go down just to learn more about yourself to know what the alternatives are, because you may look at your genetic makeup and be like, wow, based on all of the information in my genetics, I’m probably going to need medication for the rest of my life, no different than if you found out I’m type one diabetic and I don’t produce insulin, but then the alternative is you see the genetic test, and they say I can see that you’re predisposed to depression for this reason, this reason, and that reason. However, through the following lifestyle changes, you can overcome these areas, and you can do it without the medication. So that’s why I don’t know which is the right answer, because I don’t understand the way that you’re built. The point. Point is that we can now actually dig in, and we can learn these things about ourselves, and we can make the determination. So, and it’s fine. I actually went into this whole conversation about my genetic report. I have a whole podcast about this, so once again, I’ll throw that in the show notes. So, these are going to become quite robust show notes, but for somebody that’s saying, wait a second, I don’t have to take the pill, and I can learn if that’s something I can overcome. You can do that by taking a genetic test where you literally just spit into a little tube, put it in the mail, and you’ve got a report in a couple of weeks, and it’s actually really inexpensive. I think it’s like maybe 100, couple 100 bucks,

Michael Kammes: And this isn’t like 23andMe, right? This is something completely different.

Zack Arnold: No, no, 23andMe is one of the companies that provides the genetic code. The company that interprets it and gives you the results is not 23andme.

Michael Kammes: Okay,

Zack Arnold: so you can go through 23andme or ancestry.com and I’ve done 23andme myself, and I’ve had my son go through ancestry.com and I’ve gotten both of our genetic results. And then you go through another company, it’s called Strategine, and the owner of the company that developed all this technology is the one that I did the podcast with, but they interpret all that genetic data, because if you do 23andme and you go download data, it’s hundreds of pages of zeros and ones, it’s basically like reading the matrix, it’s nonsense, but they have some database that they run it through, and then they spit out what also kind of looks like nonsense, but it’s a little bit more interpreted, essentially for a medical professional. And then the medical professional sits down with you and says, “All right, so I can see that you’re not methylating certain compounds correctly. So, an example for me would be that I need a higher than normal amount of leafy greens, because my body doesn’t produce enough of whatever the chemicals and the folates are, and whatnot, to be able to properly process certain foods, so I know that if I don’t eat enough leafy greens, that’s one of the things that predisposes me to lack of energy, which then leads to depression. Another thing that I learned about myself, which to me was like being handed the keys to the universe is that every human being is designed so that we detoxify our body and our brains while we sleep. I don’t detoxify nearly as well as other people, so I can never figure out why I could never do an all-nighter, why I could never keep up with other people, and especially in our industry, where we all wear sleep deprivation badges of honor on our sleeves, like, oh, I worked 20 hours a day yesterday, I can’t do that if I don’t get at least seven or eight hours of sleep, I’m useless for like a week, but I found out that genetically that’s also the way that I’m wired, so once I found all of these lifestyle imbalances that were symptoms of my genetics. Once I plugged those holes, I became a completely different person. So that’s why I gravitated towards all of the exercise and the lifestyle that I’m doing. I said I need something that’s going to be the glue that holds all this together. I know what. If I choose a really crazy, stupid goal that would inspire me that causes all these lifestyle changes, so that’s why when I say American Ninja Warrior is my antidepressant, that’s not a euphemism, that’s the honest God’s truth. And because I do all of the physical activity, and I eat well, and do all these other lifestyle changes, I don’t need antidepressants anymore, but that’s because I know my genetic makeup. So that would be the first step for you is figuring out what do my genetics tell me, and then you can figure out, well, it seems like I could make this change, that change, or that change based on my genetic code. Maybe the antidepressants can either be something I can lessen or eliminate altogether, but again, full massive disclaimer, not a medical doctor whatsoever. I just edit them on TV occasionally.

Michael Kammes: Well, I please let me know where to send the check for the for the free coaching I just got.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, no check necessary. This is me repaying the favor for the 15 million times I’ve called you and said I don’t understand how to make this codec work or how to build this workflow. Like I’m, I’m a storyteller, but I’m definitely not one of those that understands all the various tech side of things, but you got to have both if you’re ever going to get content into the world. So this is just me trying to return the favor,

Michael Kammes: You know. One other thing I did want to bring up is that, and I honestly expected you to ask me this, was why would I just talk about this now, right? But you know why now, and I know I mentioned, you know, it’s becoming more prevalent on social media. I finally have come to a place in my life where there is always area to grow and to accumulate or get to a higher place of stature, but I realized when I left my last job and I put the feelers out there to get a job that there were offers there there was professional interest and that kind of in retrospect has given me the confidence to say that well I’ve obviously people don’t think I’m an idiot and. And if they’re willing to hire me just on that, then perhaps I can start talking about these things that are taboo, because obviously I’ve gotten to a place of my career where I’m still hireable, and when, when I kind of saw the light at the end of the tunnel, and I started getting a little bit better, it kind of, I almost felt like I owed it to the world to put this out there to let other people know that they’re not alone. There are others out there that go through the same thing, and others that understand that you’re not just lazy, you have some shit going on, you’ve got some chemicals that are not right, and that there are things that can be done, and other people that understand that, and I felt that because I am privileged enough to be at the position I am now in my career, that sharing that was the only thing that could be done to give folks who didn’t have that confidence when they were younger, if I could somehow help them with that, that was the least I could do.

Zack Arnold: Well, and I applaud you for that, because there’s no reason that you need to do that. Right, that was just something you felt compelled to do. And I hear this story so many times. The more that I research people that have really accomplished great things, they all came from a place of hitting rock bottom. They got out of rock bottom, and they realized other people have to know how I did this. It’s like this weird compulsion that we have as human beings, that when we’re in the shit and we get out of it, we want to tell other people how to get out of the shit too. Hell, I’ve built an entire business around that model, right? And a lot of people have, like, it’s a really, really common story, but it takes courage to do that, and you’re clearly not doing it, because as part of your business model, you’re going to get x number of sales.

Michael Kammes: What kind of, you know, I don’t think many positive things professionally can come about from talking publicly about things that disrupt your brain chemistry, right? That’s usually a red flag to employers, but again, this this felt heavier to me than what a paycheck was. Also, I don’t know how many of your listeners, again, in terms of age brackets, but I know that when I was in high school, I know that when I was first experiencing depression, it got negative attention, you know, when you’re in high school and you’re starting to date, or you know, getting long-lasting friendships and dealing with the prospect of becoming an adult and going to college, a lot of life-changing, or at least very important things in life are happening at that point, and it becomes a very pivotal moment, and me, when I was depressed, and this manifested with me wearing my heart on my on my sleeve, that got negative attention, and that quickly became a, oh, this isn’t something I should talk about, this isn’t something I should share, people think less of you, people aren’t going to talk to you or invite you to things, and I think unfortunately I carried that with me for many years, and if there are folks younger than me who are listening to the podcast and maybe carrying some of that negative feedback they got when they were younger, it’s wrong. It’s wrong to think that this is wrong to talk about. It’s wrong to think that this is just you. It’s something that many people go through, and many people just don’t talk about, and don’t fall into the same trap I did, where you bury it down and it becomes something you keep in your shoe, and you constantly smash it down, because one day it’s gonna eat you, and when it does, I don’t want anyone to go down the rabbit hole I have, or even worse.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I mean, I certainly don’t have all the answers, and I can’t tell anybody listening how they can get out of depression or how they can improve it. It’s going to be different for everybody, but I feel pretty confident telling every single listener that not talking about it, not doing anything about it, and burying all of it, and ignoring it, that’s not going to help. I’m pretty confident about that diagnosis, and going back to what you said about this idea of just being afraid of putting it out there and bringing negative attention. That’s it’s funny, because that’s actually one of the major instigators of the first major depression that I went through, and it actually destroyed the most important and formational relationship that I had in my entire life, because all I heard from this person was, what’s wrong with you? Why are you grumpy all the time? Why can’t you just cheer up? Why can’t you just get some sleep and get over it? And because there was a complete lack of understanding and any form of sympathy, or I mean, certainly no empathy, but there wasn’t even any sympathy or understanding of the fact that this was real. It destroyed the most important relationship in my life. And yeah, I also, for years, thought, well, I can’t tell anybody about this, because what if that happens again, right? What does it say about me? Like, I’m.. I accept the fact that I’m going through this now, but other people aren’t going to. Accepted, and they’re going to see it as weakness, and I think that that’s a really important thing that we still need to talk about here, and I know that we’re, we’re going a little bit over, but I think that’s one of the biggest fears that people have in our industry, and I’m sure in many other industries, but I hear about this fear all the time of I’m dealing with mental health, I’m having a really hard time just making it through the day, but I can’t tell anybody, because if I do, I’m going to get fired, and nobody’s ever going to hire me on a show again.

Michael Kammes: You’re completely right, and although I can’t speak as a full-time creative in that vein, because it’s been many years since I’ve been in the chair, a majority of business decisions, a majority of directions that companies take, a lot of that, although maybe based in part by meetings in the boardroom, is based on one on one conversations, and if there isn’t the confidence that you can carry out the job you are hired for, or lead the team that you are put in charge of, or have a clear view or be present for these things that can seriously submarine your job, and then when you go to find another job, people are talking behind your back, because this industry is small, so the last place you worked at is talking to the place that you want to work at, so I completely get the fact that coming out and talking about this can be perceived as being detrimental, and I’m hopeful that the dialog about this will continue, so folks who are coming into places of management and of prominence in the industry are not shocked by it, are aware that this is a thing, so when it does happen at their company, and it does happen to their employees, they’re more equipped to handle it than to just say this person’s bullshit, they’re damaged goods, I don’t want to deal with them, and I’m going to probably make fun of them behind their back when they call for a reference,

Zack Arnold: And I think that one of the biggest keys that people need to understand about this, and you’re talking about this idea of, you know, like work work performance, right? So, if you’re somebody that deals with depression on a regular basis, and you just can’t do your job, you can’t show up on time, you can’t deliver what’s promised, they have every right to decide that they want to go a different direction, because they’re hiring you to do a specific job. Now, that doesn’t mean that they should just say, well, this person is damaged goods, they’re always depressed. Like, I don’t want to deal with depressed people. What I have found is that people that deal with either depression or anxiety or ADD, or whatever it might be, they get caught in this place where they know that they have this and it’s causing job performance issues, but they’re not really sure if they’re using it as an excuse or not. And the transformation that I’ve seen happen more than once, and this even happened with me, is that, do you want to go around telling everybody in your first day of work, or in your job interview, ‘Oh, by the way, I deal with chronic depression, right? I’m just going to walk in here some days, and I’m going to have no energy whatsoever, and I’m not going to want to be here, and I’m going to be putting on a fake facade. Clearly, you don’t want to have that conversation, but I found that if you take responsibility for whatever you’re dealing with, and you own it, and you don’t necessarily spread it around everybody, but you’re open and authentic about it, people are so much more receptive to that, and then they understand you and your behaviors better, and they’re more than willing to help you and be empathetic if you can still do your job, but you have to take responsibility for it and not use it as an excuse. Oh, well, nobody ever hires me, it’s.. and it’s all.. it’s just because I’m depressed, it’s discrimination, and for the most part, it’s people not owning whatever it is and take responsibility for it, and using as an excuse,

Michael Kammes: I think you’re right on the money.

Zack Arnold: Well, I’ve seen it over and over and over again, and I guess the reason that I say that, and reason I think it’s so important, is that if somebody is listening, the for those that have already reached out to me, I’ve heard this many times, and for those that haven’t, feel free to reach out, but if you’re terrified of saying anything to anybody because you think you’re going to be blacklisted or you’re never going to be hired again. I will bet dollars to donuts, and very rarely do I talk about donuts on this show, but in this case, I’m going to. I will bet dollars to donuts that that person that you might think about telling is probably going through the same thing that you are, because all of us are in this industry. It is rampant. It is an epidemic. So, again, kind of going back to this theme of the conversation, and why we’re having it is to spread awareness and make people realize that it isn’t just you. So, on that note of awareness, and talking about our stories, and helping others to come out and talk about their stories, cannot thank you enough for being willing to be so candid and be so honest, because as we’ve already said, this is a conversation that needs to happen more in our industry. So I really, really appreciate the fact that you decided to come on the mic with me tonight and share all of this with everybody listening.

Michael Kammes: Well, I appreciate the pulpit from which to pontificate. It’s still something. Obviously I’m fighting through, it’s something that I’m still learning to deal with on a day-to-day basis, and how a new job and body chemistry and things all play into this, and it’s something that is ongoing, and if we can spread awareness that this is a common thing and that it is a constant fight, and not a light switch that you just turn on or turn off. I think the world would be a much better place to deal with kind of mental health issues.

Zack Arnold: Couldn’t agree more. So, on that note, if somebody listening today is inspired to talk to you, either more about mental health, or because they can’t figure out how the hell codecs work, and they want to figure out better workflows, and they want to work remotely from the cloud, and all this other crazy, fancy, new age, amazing stuff that you’re doing. How do people find you?

Michael Kammes: You can pretty much type my name into Google and find all my social media stuff, it’s Michael Kammes, K A M M E S, and michaelkammes.com Five Things series.com or on any of the social platforms, just type in @MichaelKammes, and I’ll pop up.

Zack Arnold: Cannot recommend enough to anybody that wants to learn more about workflows, technology. There is only one guy that I recommend, and you are that guy that I recommend to everybody.

Michael Kammes: Thank you so much.

Zack Arnold: That, and now they can talk to you about mental health as well. So, how about that?

Michael Kammes: And if nothing else I can buy a good drama scotch,

Zack Arnold: There you go, nice. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.

Michael Kammes: Thank you, Zack.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Episode Credits

This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared and published by Elyse Rintelman. The original music in the opening and closing of the show is courtesy of Joe Trapanese (who is quite possibly one of the most talented composers on the face of the planet).