“If you get to a point where you’re not happy doing what you’re doing, you need to find something different. We all should be doing what we love to do.”
– Jerilynn Stephens
Jerilynn Stephens and Kimi Messina are both award-winning Hollywood hair stylists with over 60 years experience between the two of them. Jerilynn’s recent credits include Legendary, The Voice, and Shark Tank. And Kimi has worked on films such as Almost Famous, Pirates of the Caribbean, Master and Commander, and The Last Samurai. She’s also been the key hairstylist on Dancing with the Stars for 27 seasons and Legendary Seasons 2 and 3.
Building a fulfilling career path in the entertainment industry is no easy feat (and often requires constant sacrifices). If you truly want to excel in a career you ENJOY (while also having quality time & energy to enjoy your life outside of work), these two women demystify how to make this your reality. In this candid conversation Jerilynn and Kimi share their personal experiences of climbing the ladder in Hollywood and talk openly about how they have learned to place healthy boundaries around their work so that they can continue to love their jobs without sacrificing their lives in the process. We also discuss the importance of saying yes vs saying no to the right opportunities, and most importantly how the quality of your life is dictated by the quality of the problems you get to solve every single day.
This conversation continues our Hollywood On the Record series where I speak to other guild members to learn what they do in various departments & crafts, understand the challenges they face, and how they’ve achieved high levels of success despite the exploitative nature of the entertainment industry. If you love what you do but you don’t want your career to destroy you, Jerilynn and Kimi can definitely guide you in the right direction!
Jerilynn Stephens is a two-time Guild Award-Winning and ten-time Emmy nominated hairstylist. She is the head hairstylist on Legendary, The Voice, Shark Tank & other top rated shows.
She has worked as a hairstylist and or makeup artist for the past 27 years. She has attracted a personal client list that includes both celebrities and non-celebrities alike.
Jerilynn’s motto is “Dream Big or Don’t Bother.” She loves sharing her experience of how five simple “F” Words transformed her world and helped her manifest the life of her dreams. She is the author of The Five “F” Words To Manifesting Your Life. Her mission is helping others to dream bigger than they ever thought possible and manifest the life of their dreams through The Five “F” Words.
Kimi Messina is a two-time Emmy and eight-time Makeup and Hair Guild Award winning hairstylist. She has worked as a hairstylist for 40 years and in the industry for 35 years.
She has worked on films such as Almost Famous, Pirates of the Caribbean, Master and Commander, The Last Samurai, He’s All That and Anglyne in Peacock Streaming Service.
She has been the key on Dancing with the Stars for 27 seasons, Legendary Seasons 2 and 3, and numerous TV sitcoms, single camera, and Nickelodeon shows throughout her career.
Kimi’s motto is “Quality through continuous improvement”.
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Zack Arnold: My guest today are Jerilynn Stephens and Kimi Messina who are both award winning Hollywood hairstylists that have over 60 years experience between the two of them. Jerilynn's recent credits include Legendary, The Voice and Shark Tank and Kimi has worked on such films as Almost Famous, Pirates Of The Caribbean, Master And Commander and The Last Samurai, and she has also been the key hairstylist on Dancing with the Stars for 27 seasons, as well as Legendary seasons two and three. Now listen, building a fulfilling career path in the entertainment industry is no easy feat. And let's be honest, it often requires constant sacrifices. If you truly want to excel in a career that you enjoy, while also having quality, time and energy to enjoy your life outside of work. These two women demystify how to make this your reality. In this candid conversation, both Jerilynn and Kimi share their personal experiences of climbing the ladder from the bottom all the way to the top in Hollywood. And they talk openly about how they have learned to place healthy boundaries around their work, so that they can continue to love their jobs without sacrificing the rest of their lives in the process. We also discussed the importance of saying yes, versus saying no to the right opportunities, and most importantly, how the quality of your life is dictated by the quality of the problems that you get to solve every single day. This conversation continues our Hollywood on the record series, where I speak to other guild members to learn what they do in various departments and crafts, understand the challenges that they face, and most importantly, how they have achieved high levels of success in the industry, despite the exploitative nature of what we do. If you love what you do, but you don't want your career to destroy you, Jerilynn and Kimi can definitely guide you in the right direction. Alright, so without further ado, my conversation with legendary Hollywood hairstylists, Jerilynn Stephens and Kimi Messina. To access the show notes for this episode with all the bonus links and resources discussed today as well as to subscribe, leave a review and more simply visit zackarnold.com/episode187. I am here today with Jerilynn Stephens and Kimi Messina who are legendary Hollywood hairstylists. Jerilynn is a two-time Guild Award winning and 10 time Emmy nominated hairstylist. She is the head hairstylist on Legendary, The Voice, Shark Tank and other top rated shows and Kimi you are a two-time Emmy and eight-time makeup and hair Guild Award winning stylist as well. And you have been working on hair as a stylist for over 40 years. And just a few of some of your recent credits include He's All That, multiple Pirates of the Caribbean films, Legendary, The Morning Show, and many, many, many more. I am very excited to have both of you here. Thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation.
Jerilynn Stephens: Thank you. Thank you.
Zack Arnold: So the first thing I gotta ask just because I've worked on Cobra Kai for the last four seasons. What is it like working on Tanner Buchanan's hair, because it's pretty magical.
Kimi Messina: It is very magical. He's got a head of hair. Such a great guy. I love that guy so much. Yeah, it was really fun working with him. We actually used his hair for the fake cut, and used just the top of his hair and put a little secret in there. Little little half bit of hair. And he looked great with it really, really well.
Zack Arnold: He wouldn't look good sporting just about any luck, maybe not my looking. But he could sport just about anything other than that the look that I'm sporting. So if we were here today to talk about my styling needs, this would be a very, very short conversation. Because as Jerilynn said before the official recording, not not a whole lot to work with here and there isn't, but that's okay. But what I really want to talk about today is I want to help listeners and viewers better understand the world of the hairstylist in Hollywood, because it's really important to me that all the various different crafts understand not only what are our jobs, what what are our lifestyles because lifestyle has become such a huge point of conversation. Over the last several years, I've been beating the burnout drum and lack of work life balance drums for about a decade now. But I really feel like it was falling on deaf ears for a long time because it's just the way that it is and you pay your dues. And when you work in Hollywood, you know what you signed up for. And I only feel like with the most recent contract negotiations that people started to listening and this became a really key point. But I think one of the areas of friction is we've all lived in our own little caves, and all the hairstylist and all the other hairstylists and all the editors and all the other editors and all the DPS and all the other DPS. But we don't really feel like we're this much larger family that's all working to create great entertainment together. And I think once we better understand each other, it's going to be easier to present a unified front and really get the work life balance and the respect that we deserve. So essentially, that's what we're going to be talking about today. But to get started. I always love to know what it is about somebody's craft that drove them to do it in the first place. And in the case of both of you, you essentially have dedicated your life to styling other people's hair. So I'm going to start with you, Jerilynn. And I would just love to know, why did you get into this business in the first place?
Jerilynn Stephens: Well, honestly, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Growing up in northern Michigan, I moved to Seattle with a boyfriend in the 90s. And I was turning 25. And I decided I needed to do something with my life other than bartending. And that's when I decided to go to beauty school. While I was in beauty school, I visited my first film set, because one of my girlfriends started dating a grip. And so at that moment, when I walked on the film set, I was like, This is my dream. That's what I want to do. I want to work in Hollywood on film sets. And so I talked to the hair and makeup in the trailer, they were so nice. And they're like, we'll move to LA when you get out of school and you know, get some experience moved to LA and and so I did. That's how that came about.
Zack Arnold: So I'm really curious. A lot of people, especially the people in my world, we had the opposite reaction, which is oh my god, this Hollywood film set is so busy and so chaotic, and so overwhelming. I'm gonna go hide in the deep dark cave and be an editor, myself included, what was it the first time you stepped on the film set that really gave you that magical feeling where you said, This is who I am. And this is my calling
Jerilynn Stephens: it just at the time, you know, it just seems so glamorous and amazing. And people had such amazing lives that I was hearing about and, and so that was really what was intriguing to me and to be a part of a film, you know, the start to finish process and how of how that works. And at the time, I had no idea what that consisted of, but I just knew that I wanted to learn how to do it.
Zack Arnold: So I'm sure we'll get into this a whole lot more later. But just kind of in short now. How are you still feeling about the glamour of living and working on a Hollywood film set?
Jerilynn Stephens: I still love it. I mean, I've been honestly I'm one of the few I know, but I still love what I do. And I just love being a part of people's journeys. Like, you know, most of my shows are competition shows because, you know, so it's like, I'm a part of their journey in that moment and get to be a part of that is is really beautiful. You know, of course, there's some people that aren't that awesome, but like the experience I still love, I love it.
Zack Arnold: I'm gonna now take the same question, same conversation over to you, Kimi, what initially drew you to the world of hairdressing and dedicating your entire life and career to this craft?
Kimi Messina: Um, well, actually, I, my brother owned a hair salon. And I worked in it. And I swept the floors and changed the records. Yeah, back then they had records LP,
Zack Arnold: we'll put a link on Wikipedia to what a record is for all the young kids out there that are listening.
Kimi Messina: Exactly, exactly. But that was kind of my job, you know, and I did did that. And then there was a scholarship offered in my school. And so it was for beauty school, and I was gonna go for makeup since my brother did hair. And he was like, No, you gotta go for hair. You've been braiding hair and doing all our weddings and stuff for us because they were like barber school people. So I did that. And then we work together in the salon and went to another salon for a few more years. That was like six, seven years. At then I was like I was doing a bunch of bands, my brother was in a band, and I did all their hair and all these rockers around town. And I thought, Gosh, I'd love to do music videos. And so I started putting that out there. My brother had a client that had a friend who was coming to town to do a movie and hired me on it. And it was to shave a bunch of heads and do a bunch of haircuts with John Ritter. She ended up getting fired. And they brought an LA makeup artist. And then that LA makeup artist kept me and she was like, hey, you know, you need to move to LA, you would you would love it there. You'd be great there. So that's what I did. I moved to LA while I was young didn't have any bills. And that was a prime time for me. And I still wanted to do videos, music videos, because that was my jam. To this day. I've done like three music videos. I got into mostly celebrity print for the first couple years I was here and then started getting calls to work on films, non union films. And next thing I knew I was, you know, in the union, you know, doing films and, you know, episodic TV,
Zack Arnold: I would think that of maybe not all the hairstyles in the world, but many of them the universal dream has got to be going back to the 80s and doing music videos, right like was was the hair any more fun to style than the 80s hair band? I mean, come on. I mean, but working on Cobra Kai, I've immersed myself in that world more than I ever thought I would watching all the hair bands and Going through all the music and not just the big names, but the little names that man the videos in the 80s Holy cow. They something else, right? Yeah. So, yeah, I've been deep, deep deep down that rabbit hole, and the hair is always the best part. Always. Right? So sticking with you for a second Kimi, what is it about the craft? What is it about the day to day that keeps you wanting to go back and do it again. And again. And again,
Kimi Messina: I think just the ever changing world of hair, you know, every day you go in, you kind of don't know what what to expect, you know, it's going to be a little something different. The people you work with are going to be a little different. Unless, of course, it's a scripted show. And you know, you know, going into it that you have a wig planned for this person or that person or whatever. I think it's that I think it's the energy of all of the creative people around us. And makeup and costume. And, you know, props in the art department in set dressing. I mean, I walk on a set so many times that I just get, I just get so filled up with all the other energy going on. It's not just about me, and the hairstyle I'm going to create or I've created on someone, it's like the whole big picture, including like the grips, and the electric people that are you know, setting up the lights and the energy of all that, you know,
Zack Arnold: just just being a part of the creating that entire world.
Kimi Messina: Yes, yes, the entire world of film and television. And live is a whole other thing.
Zack Arnold: Oh, of course. And Kimi may have stolen your answer already. But is there anything that you want to know? I'm totally being kidding. But asking the same question of you Jerilynn. Kimi may have stolen some of your answers. But what is it about the craft that brings you back to doing it day after day after day?
Jerilynn Stephens: Oh, gosh, I mean, I just love doing it. I love making people feel and look good. Because you know, when they feel good and look good, you know that they're going to perform? Well, you know, and that just makes me happy.
Zack Arnold: And it's really interesting that you say that, because I've seen this phenomenon more than once with actors, where I don't see it often because I really spent very, very little time on set, which is kind of a bummer. Because most of the shows that I work on, they're shooting like across the country or across the world. So I'm sitting literally in the room I'm in now editing shows that are shot in Montreal, or Chicago or Atlanta or wherever. So I don't get to be on set that much. But I've seen more than once on camera, or I've seen the actors talk about how when they walk into a really well dressed set, or they've got a really amazing costume or their hair is a certain way. It's almost like they have this alter ego. And it creates this new sense of confidence. And that's a big part of their performance. And I'm guessing the you see that effect every day.
Jerilynn Stephens: Yeah, I mean, well, that's the truth. You know, and that goes for anyone you know, that's just like a regular person who comes and sits in my chair, and cut and color their hair. You know, they feel and look amazing, they go out and they're like taking their selfies, you know, a new profile pictures. And that's just like what we do, you know, that makes me feel so good. On the flip side of that you can actually ruin someone's day, right? So like the moment they walk in the trailer, the energy and the mood of hair and makeup is everything, like people don't understand that, like we are the people that are setting the mood for the day.
Zack Arnold: I think that's a really, really important key point that I don't think most people would realize. And it's certainly something that I wouldn't really think about because I get hired and my day starts or my job starts like for example, I'm on payroll after they've shot one day worth of dailies. So I'm not even a part of anything until there's an entire day's worth of footage shot. And then from there, so I'm keeping up to camera as much as I can with production. But what I'm seeing is so far beyond the mood that you're setting, and I can completely see how you build this entire show. All of the marketing around one face one person, they start their day, and we'll talk more about this in a second. But they start their day at 4am They got to be in the makeup trailer. And they have a really crappy experience and hair and makeup and it doesn't go well. And now you know the craft you that are the breakfast is screwed up. And now they have to be another person for 12 to 14 hours in front of a camera. So I can see how important not just the hair and what you see on camera, but what you feel on camera comes from the environment that you create.
Jerilynn Stephens: Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's why we get hired is because we help people feel confident.
Zack Arnold: So how either of you can answer this I'll kind of let you guys you know talk amongst yourself back and forth. Anybody can jump in at any time. But because I'm coming into this as a total newbie, I literally know nothing about your craft other than seeing the finished product. For somebody that's listening that is doing your craft and maybe aspiring to do it. How do you create the right mood that sets the tone for the entire day on set?
Jerilynn Stephens: You want to go ahead Kimi
Kimi Messina: Just when when when we go to work. We can't Bring our stuff with us, you know, you have to have a happy face on and you have to have a excited to see somebody and a create, like a joyful experience for them so that they leave their stuff outside of the trailer, you know, or outside of the makeup room. And they could just let go and be able to take a breath and let us do our thing, you know, with them, and give them the confidence that they need. You know, a lot of times it's not like that, you know, a lot of times there's a lot of chaos going on. And people aren't morning people, let's say. So it's a little slower process. But I think that's the main thing is you know, being inviting person bring calmness, you know, so that when they walk in, it's calm, and they're, they know they're in a safe place in a safe environment to start the start the process.
Jerilynn Stephens: I think that's so important what you said and and especially the mood like with the music and, and leaving your stuff at home, like really, you know, bringing, you know your work face and being just like, happy to see people and happy to be there. And yeah, Kimi made some really good points.
Zack Arnold: So in theory, all of this sounds great. You show up early, you've got your smile on your face, you're not bringing anything to work. And it's all hunky dory, and you create this magical experience for the talent. Now let's talk about reality. Which is that and I want you guys to go really deep into helping people understand a day in the life for hair and makeup. Because a lot of people will hear oh, well, you know, we get called times of six and 7am. And people don't realize there's a whole lot that's happening behind the scenes for hours before that that's not even counted in part of the long days that we have. So talk to me about a day in the life for your department, and how it makes it that much more difficult to automatically show up every day and be bubbly and fun and smile on the face and create this magical environment paint the picture for your department for others that might not understand how it works in reality,
Jerilynn Stephens: I think Kimi and I are kind of like unicorns in our business because her and I are morning people. And I think that her I mean, we always pretty much come in I like happy in the morning, I've had people tell me that I need to like calm down, like stop down. But her and I working together. It's never really we're always happy. But there are people, you know, that are not morning people that are on our team. Sometimes you have to just, you know, let them wake up. And you know, just like with anybody but yeah,
Kimi Messina: pretty much. I mean,
Zack Arnold: well, all of that having been said if we take you personally out of the equation, paint the picture for what it looks like specifically just for your department in general, as far as if the call time is this time, you have to be in this many hours before and or this many hours after. I know that for a lot of departments, they see a call time and that's my first moment of work. And then the wrap time is the last moment that I was on set and I got in my car. For other departments. It doesn't work that way. I'm not beholden to a call sheet at all. Like for me, my day starts at like 11 because I'm not a morning person, but I can work on my own time. And all I have to do is hit a deadline and give people great work. I can do it whenever I want. It can be at three in the morning can be at seven in the morning can be on Saturdays, as long as I deliver on deadline and it's good. Nobody cares how I use my time, which works for my own rhythms. If I had to wake up at four or five in the morning and be cheerful to other people, oh my god, I could not function in your business. But if we take you out of it personally, how does your department work in general as far as the rhythms and schedules?
Jerilynn Stephens: I mean for us, they we get like a 20 minute call before someone sits in our chair and they show up and we do what we need to do as far as I mean, Kimi does more scripted movie type things than I do. But I mean it's just then we you know hair and makeup has their time it depends on the show you know some shows are only giving us a very short amount of time to get a look done and some shows like legendary we get a full hour actually two hours for hair and makeup. So a lot of times we will double team to achieve that look. Yeah, I mean and then they get wardrobe and then they go to set.
Zack Arnold: Well this brings up a really important question I was going to ask a little bit later but we might as well get to uh, now I would love to better understand for your department specifically how different it is and unscripted versus scripted. Because I have a feeling that Kimi your experience in scripted might be somewhat different. Yes.
Kimi Messina: Yeah, it's different. Definitely. You know, it all depends on the show actually on on our times and And, or, you know, on on how our day starts, it's usually a lot earlier than a live show, which is, you know, could be dependent on how long the person is going to be in hair and makeup, it can be a five hour earlier call, which was the case in a show that I had done. So, you know, our call times were sometimes 233 o'clock in the morning, and to be on set at, you know, eight o'clock 830 Depending on the call time for the crew. And you know, a lot of that is, you know, the wig applications, the makeup applications, all of the above, you know, it's all of the pre stuff that goes into being ready for a call time. Crew call maybe seven o'clock. But you know, we've been there for hours, getting people ready to shoot at, say eight o'clock. 8:30. So it's yeah, it could be definitely
Jerilynn Stephens: I'll interrupt that Kimi. I would not be happy at that time. No, no, no.
Zack Arnold: You could walk in at 2:30 in the morning for an 8am call and be happy. And there was a lot of silence. All right, well, let's I want to dig into this a little deeper. I want to better understand this now. Because I think most people that work in a quote unquote normal industry are going to think the following Oh, well, if let's call the crew call 7am. That's a fairly common call time, right? It's kind of in the middle of sometimes it's early, or sometimes it's later. Let's say that, hypothetically, the crew call time is 7am. And you know, you have a whole lot of hair and makeup, prosthetics, all kinds of fancy stuff. And they're going to bring you in at 2:30, like you said, So the assumption is, will clearly because you came in at 2:30, somebody's looking out for your well being. So they're going to make sure you're not working past 12:30 or 2:30 at the latest because that's a 12 hour day, and we care about your well being. So of course, if you came in at 2:30, you're out by 2:30. Right? Really? Is that not how it works?
Kimi Messina: Oh, no, no crew, they want to try to get out by by 12 hours, like that.
Zack Arnold: So then, so then walk me through a day in the life and scripted, when you're coming in five hours before the rest of the crew does and they're putting in long days.
Kimi Messina: Well, I might come in at that time, and I might not get off till seven something. And then you know, the dismantling of those people, you know, wigs off, you know, if they have a lot of prosthetics or makeup and that type of stuff, you know that that's time consuming as well, too, but also then re prepping your work for for the next day so that it's not so complicated in the morning. And sometimes things need to sit overnight a little bit too. And lace cleaning on wigs and that kind of stuff. So the crew is long gone by then, in fact, transpose trying to get us out of there so that they can go, but, you know, it just, that's the way it is. I mean, it sounds great, you know, with saying, you know, oh, we want the crew to work 12 hours, that crew doesn't include us, you know, so it'll be a 12 hour day for the crew. And what they do with that is, they don't do a lunch break. Now, they, and it's not even really a French hour, but they say there's four hours in between the day that you can get lunch, and then we'll work through lunch to not have a slow down at lunch to not have that time that we lose during the lunchtime. You know, even though it's a 30 minute lunch, it's still you know, an hour and 15. And then everybody's a little groggy, it just keeping that pace going and just keeping that movement going for the crew. And then for us. Sometimes we break if we have time. If not, we get our food, we hurry up and eat in between setups and stuff, which is our normal thing. You know,
Zack Arnold: that's one of the things I want to change. It's no longer calling that normal. I'm not so good at math, but I'm pretty confident there's only 24 hours in the day. And if you're starting at 2:30 to do complicated wig, makeup, prosthetics, et cetera, et cetera, call time is it seven, they rapid seven, and you still have all of your other prep work? What are we talking between, I get in my front door at home, and I'm ready to go to sleep from the time you have to wake up. What's the general turnaround time we're actually not on set in work mode,
Kimi Messina: you would get a nine hour nine hour turnaround.
Zack Arnold: So there is a turnaround time built in where if you do have one of these like 18 hour days or whatever it is, then you have to if you were to and are we talking the crew wrap or your wrap, wrap because clearly those are different times. So if you if the crew crew wraps at 7pm You have two more more hours of cleanup and whatnot, and you're done at nine, then that means you conceivably could still have to wake up at five in the morning to be on set at 6am. Right? Right. Yeah. How's that been working out for you?
Kimi Messina: Well, the first days sometimes start out like that, like Monday, usually, they'll start out like that. And they try to work it to where, you know, you would get out a little earlier, or we would be finished with, you know, some of those scenes by then, and you could wrap that personnel to be out, you know, unless they're in the last scenes, but they, you know, production will always try to think about that in advanced, you know, to be able for rap and knowing that the breakdown that you need to take people down and get the wigs off and that kind of stuff and, and re prep that some people rent to teams, so that you have a team that's there to take down and we prep the wigs and stuff for the next day. So a lot of times that will happen as well. But it's it's usually pretty tight. Like by Tuesday, you get a little bit later by Wednesday, you get a little bit later, and maybe that person doesn't work that late, or those people don't work that late. And you can wrap your stuff earlier, you know, so they're cognizant of, you know, trying to make that happen. But sometimes it works. And sometimes it doesn't.
Zack Arnold: Well, I would say that there are somewhat cognizant of it. But at the end of the day, I'm sure as both of you have experienced this more often about the bottom line and overages than it is about actual general well being and health and making sure that everybody is taken care of. But certainly it's somebody's job to make sure that people don't go into overages. And I'm curious going back to Jerilynn How different is it in your world as far as like the the call times and the overlapping with the crew it sounds like it's a little bit simpler to manage and you can more consistently maintain the pace and unscripted versus the scripted world.
Jerilynn Stephens: Yeah, I love unscripted. Um, you know, it's it's a rare day that I work 12 hours. I'm usually around a lot of my shows like the voice we really do try and stick 1010 hour guarantee days and keep it around that which you know, in the in the normal world like a 10 hour day is still a long day. But for us, I'm like, oh my god, it's a short day.
Zack Arnold: Like doctors hours in Hollywood, right?
Jerilynn Stephens: I mean, I'm really fortunate I discovered, you know, the unscripted world, and that's the non union world I was in and then it turned union, right. All of these reality shows ended up turning union back in the early 2000s. And I just have stayed there because it's, it's a great mom job. And I have a 14 year old now. And, you know, it's it's given me a life of not the dreaded hours that people talk about. Although I was on a project with Kimi where it was an 18 hour day one day, and I was like, oh my god, this is insane. Like, how do people do this all the time. But the paycheck was going there. People do it every day. Every day.
Kimi Messina: Yes. I had nine imaginings down because of it.
Jerilynn Stephens: Yeah, yeah, I don't. It's it should you know, it's funny, my my husband's in this world, too. He's in the commercial world. And when I did do those two really long days like that, he was like, that's so unsafe. That's not what we do. You know, you have to and I'm like, dude, just stop down for a minute. It's two days. But he sent me a thing. We have a new contract now. And you it's a 16 hour limit. And I think that that is is that hair and makeup included? I'm not sure.
Zack Arnold: Well, that was something I was going to ask you both. And you've partially answered it where you said that now you're mostly working on Union projects. And I would assume that Kimi you're always working work union you only work Union. But to Kimi I would assume anything in the scripted world that's not super low budget indie. You're also in the union, correct? Yeah. Yeah. And you both you both have a very specific guild. What's the actual name of it? I should know this. But I'm blanking out at the second like the official name.
Kimi Messina: Make up and hair guild.
Zack Arnold: Oh, for some reason, I thought there was something else to it at that almost seems too simple that I'm like, it can't just be called the hair,
Jerilynn Stephens: Makeup and Hairstyles Guild local 706.
Zack Arnold: Right. So that being the case, knowing that you're both working under union contracts. I'm curious going back to when we had the previous negotiations, which were obviously so contentious and got to like within inches, literally inches of shutting down the entire industry and going on strike. I'm curious and again, you don't have to share any personal thoughts and are comfortable sharing but I'm wondering where you stood with all the changes that were happening there and all the demands that were happening and since if you have sent see In a real difference in the quality of your life and the quality of your department since the contracts,
Jerilynn Stephens: I mean, I was for the strike. But I haven't seen I haven't heard any difference. To me. I mean, I see like, the big networks and stuff are willing just to pay, right? They're willing to pay for meal penalties. They're willing to pay for force calls, like nothing's changed. That I can tell. I don't know.
Kimi Messina: No, not at all.
Zack Arnold: So given the fact at least I know that Kimi from your perspective, you've done a lot on both sides, unscripted and scripted. But Jerilynn, largely in the unscripted world. Do you feel the things needed to change
Jerilynn Stephens: for us? No, but I was 100% supportive of our union, our whole IATSE, you know, I mean, I definitely would love to see change, and and having people be healthier, and really take care of themselves and get sleep. And, you know, all of that I was 100% supportive of that.
Zack Arnold: Oh, yes. Yeah. So let's go back. And we can kind of we'll call this back to our our endpoint in the conversation. So now going to you, Kimi, you've kind of alluded to this a little bit already. But what is it that you haven't seen change, knowing that we now have this new contract? And you're like, Man, I can't see any difference?
Kimi Messina: I don't feel like the hours have changed. I mean, I think that people are still, you know, working the hours that they were working, I think that turnarounds are at a very minimum. And I think the companies are just again, they'll complain about it, but their pain, you know, the meal penalties, and they're paying for some force calls, or they're wrapping you within two minutes, I literally was wrapped within two minutes of forced call on a couple of those really early calls. And I didn't get the force, you know, the other people did, but I thought, really two minutes to not get the force. I mean, what's, you know, what's that going to be? But on paper, you know, that's the way they do it. And that's the way the process goes. So you just smile and say, okay, whatever. Yeah.
Zack Arnold: Well, I'm a big believer in not just smiling and saying, okay, and whatever. So what I guess is probably the maybe not the most important question, but I think one of the most important questions about this whole discussion specific to the hair and makeup department, clearly not a whole lot changed with the latest contract negotiations. So what are the most important challenges of your job? And what needs to change as we go into our next collective bargaining agreement?
Jerilynn Stephens: Do you want to answer that, Kimi? I mean, honestly, I think we just need to really get, like the wheat. I see. I don't have the problem, right. But my friends do that work on other shows. And it's like, like I said, they just pay for the force calls, they pay for the overtime they pay for, you know, the meal penalties. It's just they budget that in the beginning of the season. You know, so what needs to change is people need to have like, 12 hour days, you know, and and including hair and makeup.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I mean, is there anything different about you, genetically, that makes a hair and makeup person different than a grip? Or a camera person or anyone else? I'm pretty sure we're all humans. Right? Exactly. So you go ahead, you were gonna say something, Kimi,
Kimi Messina: I think that, you know, when they budget for these shows, I think they know what's going to go into it, you know, they know how long it's going to take hair and makeup. And I think they need to plan that in a 12 hour date inclusive of hair and makeup, not making it a 16 hour day or 18 hour day for hair and makeup. With a 12 hour day for crew, I think that they they need to from the top of being budgeted. So that means instead of being done shooting something in six months, or you know, 12 weeks or whatever, planning it to be longer, you know, so that you fit in that time of turnarounds. And I've said that from the beginning. You know, I mean, there were days on X Files that I worked a 31 hour day. And I was like, why would you even do that? Yeah, I worked at 31 hour day. It was ridiculous. If we literally started on like Friday morning and didn't finish till sometime Saturday afternoon with Lily Tomlin and Lou Asner or Ed Asner. And I was like, really? These people can't work these kinds of hours either. You know, I mean, the only thing that kept us awake is every little bit If we had, we'd go to the makeup trailer and dance. With David Kemeny. We just go in there and dance and dance and dance. So give us a minute or two then be able to go back in. But it was ridiculous. You know, and I don't know I but I've always said that.
Zack Arnold: The second year of my career, I worked 122 hour day. And I said, Never again, I'm never ever doing this again. Because the next three days were such a disastrous mess. I could, it wasn't a matter of the next afternoon, it was like, I was amortizing days and weeks of productivity and focus and just being able to function like a basic human being. And I'm like, I'm never working 22 hours a day. Again, I started editing at 930, we had a really tight deadline, I edited until 730. That morning, slept on the couch for an hour or two and woke up for a meeting at work the same day. And I'm like, never. But I know that there are people that kind of do that on a regular basis. And it's kind of insane. And I'm curious, just because both of you have been in the industry for a long time. How much of a change Have you seen, from the way things were 1020, even 30 years ago, to the way things are now, because I think there's we always want to sugarcoat with rose colored glasses, the way things were then oh, it's so much worse now. But I'm curious if that's actually the case? Or if it's just kind of always been this way.
Kimi Messina: I feel like it's always been this way. I mean, if you're asking me, I feel like it's always been this way. And it's like, when I take a job like that, I know what to expect. You know, I know I'm not out in 12 hours, like on a live TV show, you know, on like dance with the stars. If I go in at seven in the morning, I know I'm done by a quarter to eight, depending on how much stuff I have to take off, you know, we have to take off their hair and stuff. Same with on voice are legendary and stuff. It's, you know, a 12 hour day cut and dry. No problem. But I know when I take a scripted show that, you know, I don't make plans to do anything. You know, I know that I'm locked in to that work schedule of whatever it's going to be for those three months, six months, nine months, whatever it is.
Zack Arnold: And do you find similar Jerilynn that you feel what just kind of always been this way?
Jerilynn Stephens: Yeah, I mean, every production is different to write my I started out my career with Hallmark movies as well. And they always kept you down at 12 hour, we were in at seven and out at seven. And that was non union even you know, it's just really depends on the production company. I feel like yeah, when you take a job and you know what you're accepting, you know, the hours you're going to accept to so. And I turned down work for those reasons as well. Because you know, my well being is important. And, you know, being able to be a mom is important to me.
Zack Arnold: And this is the perfect segue to where I want to go to next is the fact that you're in this place where you're saying, I don't really have a lot of these challenges, and I love my job and love the work and love the people. But that doesn't just happen. You have to manifest that. And you have to be very clear about what you say yes to and what you say no to, which is taking us to the perfect segue to some of the other work that you do where I believe that despite you having gorgeous hair and me having none, we have a lot in common, which is that in addition to being a makeup and hairstyle is do you not also like to write and coach and see yourself as an entrepreneur that's helping other people along a similar path.
Jerilynn Stephens: You know, I love helping people. I honestly I started in 2018 I decided what do I want to do with my life because I really have pursued my dreams and they were happening and I really wanted to talk to cosmetology students and just share my experience of how that anyone can do what I do. You know, because it seems so crazy like oh my god, Hollywood How am I going to do that? And and I did it and I even did it through some really, you know, really dark times. And I was able to conquer and manifest my dreams and so I started talking to students about my five F words which are figure out what you want and focus fearless action, feel it existing and faith you know, faith in yourself faith in the universe. And you know, just those five efforts really saved my life and and also you know, manifested my career. So and my love life I mean everything as you know, it's like all mindset, right?
Zack Arnold: It's all mindset. I'm so glad that you brought that up. I didn't have to because it's all mindset. However, here's the caveat to it. And I'm sure that you've seen this in the entrepreneurship world, especially in Hollywood. And the glitz and glamour is people talk about manifesting something. And there are a lot of people that will roll their eyes at that and say, Well, what does that mean? Like, I'm going to manifest it, and it's going to magically happen. And all I need to do is create a vision board. And I need to sit back and just wait for my dreams to become reality. You've already solved this problem. But I want to point this out. You say fearless Action. Action is the component that so many people overlook when they think about this idea of manifesting one, I want that mindset. Well, as long as my mindset is good, and I believe I deserve to be successful, it's just going to happen. Well, yes, if you put in the action and actually do the work, right. Yeah.
Jerilynn Stephens: I mean, the biggest thing for me is like, you know, what is the action plan, you know, you know, what you want. And, you know, I would just make little lists of the four or five things that I knew I needed to do. And even now, right little things that I know I need to do, in order to make things happen. And the action is what tells the universe you're serious. And, and then everything else, the feeling it and believing and, and really, I don't really share a lot with people like verbally, of what I want. It's more within me and my spirit. And and in that, and I know manifestation I manifested that that is thrown out there all the time. In fact, it almost I mean, like, whatever you manifested that, well, it's like you create your life. Right? And, and the drama in it, or the drama, not and all of that. So yeah, I mean, I love, I could have a conversation with this for an hour,
Zack Arnold: I could have a conversation about this for 300 hours. Because I haven't for years and years and years and years, because I think this is so important. It's such a vital component of becoming successful. And I always make sure to be very clear with people that I believe there's a component of the universe or whatever it is that you want to believe things that we don't even understand. And there's this idea of having the right mindset and manifesting it. But I'm always a big believer in taking action, having an action plan. That's really the part where I excel the most is helping people actually put down what are the tangible actions? How do I organize my day? How do I design my actions around my values, etc, etc. But there's another one one of the five apps that I want to talk about next that both of you can speak to is this idea of feeling it existing already. And I want to clarify in what my words I think that means. And then I want to see if you agree and make sure that we can go into this deeper. People come to me all the time, specifically in post production. But I've worked with writers and directors and composers as well. But it's always kind of the same thing. It's I want to make a major transition, maybe it's from an assistant to the lead department or I want to go from writing this kind of content comedy to writing action, or whatever it is. And they say people don't see me that way. They see me as doing the other thing. So let's use I'm an assistant editor now, I only want to be an editor will all my friends and everybody that I talked to the only see me as an assistant. And my question is, do you see yourself as an assistant? Well, I mean, I guess kind of like I haven't really edited yet. And I say how in the world? Can you expect anybody else to consider you an editor? If you don't? You have to be the first one. And it sounds like that very much taps into your idea of feeling it existing already, does it not?
Jerilynn Stephens: Yes. You know, there was a big jump for me. I won't say the name of the show, because I then I might out some people. But you know, I was a hairstylist, and then I was a key hairstylist on the show. And then, you know, the department had I always was like, I'm doing I'm doing their job, you know, and, you know, all of that that comes within, you know, being basically that person's assistant right? To the show. And I think I realized after I quit thinking, I wish that person would get fired. So I could have the job, right? Because I'm so worthy of that job, right? I'm so worthy. And I kept saying, I am so worthy of this job. This job should be mine. Right? And then as soon as I started saying to myself or praying, I hope that person can get something more fabulous and more desirable for him or her right? Then that's when it happened. Once I changed my thinking and what I wanted for that person. All of a sudden within that two month span, that person got something fabulous. That took him or her away from the show and I got the position. Like it's just all in the way we want to create and not that I created that for them, but it, it really helped I think magnet like magnify my experience and my creation. Does that make sense?
Zack Arnold: I'd absolutely and totally makes sense. And I'm curious if going back a little bit earlier in your career Kimi, if you've had either similar experiences yourself, or you've seen others that are trying to climb the ladder, and it really is just a matter of you actually have to believe that you can do the job. And I don't know exactly what the machinations are as far as what the steps are for the ladder for what you guys do. But I really think at the end of the day, it's a very similar journey for all of us, even if the craft is different.
Kimi Messina: Yes, definitely. I definitely think the same thing is that, you know, there's, there's shows that you work on, that require different ways in administration, and supervision and in running. And I think I, for me, I've always just taken everything in, I've really kept my eyes open. From the beginning of doing all of this, I've been an open eyed person, and I, you know, just learn as much I'm a sponge, I just learn as much as I possibly can, not only about doing hair and about the process of hair, but about the business side of it as well. And, and how things run and what's expected of you with the production team. You know, and so I think that, you know, just learning how to deal in all of those different parts of what we do. We're not just a hairdresser, you know, there's a list of stuff that goes on with, with what we do, when it comes to doing some of these shows. And I think finessing that learning that and and finessing that and being able to achieve all of those is important for all of us.
Zack Arnold: Speaking of wearing many hats, and having many job titles, I think one area of commonality between specifically everybody listening that's in post production, that's an editor or an assistant, and anybody that's a hairstylist or in makeup. I bet just like us, you have to wear the hat of therapist, do you not?
Kimi Messina: Yes, we're hairapists
Zack Arnold: Hairapists. I love that. Editorist sounds awful. But hairapist sounds great. So tell me the craziest story that you can without obviously divulging anything personal but where you really felt like going back to the beginning of the conversation and important part of creating the environment is listening and helping actors or whomever sitting in that chair through a really, really difficult challenge.
Jerilynn Stephens: We are therapists, they teach you that in beauty school. I mean, that has been taught since day one and beauty school that we basically are therapist people and trust me. When I was in the salon, I would have husband and wife's come in for haircuts at different times. And when you know too much, you're just like, Oh my God, please don't tell me any more information, right? But it's kind of the same thing in our chairs at work. It's like the truth serum, you know, you sit in the chair and and it's like just tell me everything you know?
Zack Arnold: What's funny that they actually teach that to you in beauty school because they teach none of that to us in quote unquote postproduction school. And we just kind of have to figure out on the fly and one of the things I always tell aspiring editors and assistants is that if you really want to be great, it goes far beyond the technical skills, and it's all about the soft skills is the ability to help people work through problems and listen just as much or even more than you would speak in return and I would guess that beyond your ability to to color hair or put it in a certain way. I bet you get hired on shows because of your ability to work with talent far beyond what you see on the camera, do you not?
Jerilynn Stephens: Oh gosh. I think it's both really yeah because both Kimi and I mean I'm gonna toot our horns we're pretty talented and we can run a really tight hair department and plus the the way we are just thriving on creativity and like figure is legendary the show legendary on HBO Max is probably both of our most creative shows of our lifetime and it all the time. I mean, I love working with Kimi cuz she's like, just like, oh, okay, yeah, how are we gonna do that? And we're just like going back and forth. And then we get the team involved in it. It's just so much creativity and fun that you know, we just thrive off from each other with that.
Kimi Messina: It's so fun. It really is.
Zack Arnold: Alright, so talking about how fun it is. We will will not will, this will maybe not be the last question, but we'll get close to it. Craziest hair story on set, you're actually allowed to tell
Kimi Messina: we, I have a good one from Grease Live, which those kinds of shows are live shows. And there's a lot going on. And we were shooting at Warner Brothers. And, you know, it's periods, you know, so there's a lot of period hairstyles, there's wigs being used and changing out wigs and et cetera, et cetera. But we're at Warner Brothers. And fortunately, I'm a really physical fitness person, you know, I'm very physical and, and I can handle being on my feet a lot. And the actress I was working with was Julianne Hough, which, you know, I knew from Dancing with the Stars and burlesque, you know, we dense stuff together there. And she had like 18 changes, she hadn't changed change change the whole time. But to get to each of the stages where she would be into her next part of the performance, and we only had a couple of minutes, we would run, she would go, come on, can we let this run. So I had my little setback, and we're running and the whole time, I'm like doing things on her hair. As we're running next to each other. I'm taking things out and changing barrettes and that kind of stuff. And then we get to the end and we'd run from way on one end of this of the studio to the other and ran there. Got her hair pinned up note. We were in a cart, got her hair pinned up while we were in the cart from one end to the other. Put the wig cap on, got her ready. And then one of our other workmates team bandwidths is tall. So he was standing over the wall to hand me her wig. And I was able to get that on her while she was pulling her pants up. Cuz it was like a, you know, less than five minute change. It was the funniest thing that I've ever done. I literally sat down afterwards, and we just laughed our butts off because
Zack Arnold: I would guess that Jerilynn you've got to have a story or two like that in the unscripted competition world because all of that I would think are a lot of it is some form of live performance. Is it not?
Jerilynn Stephens: Yeah, I think I mean, the funniest live show, which has to do with the bandwidth, which was hilarious. On the voice this girl I mean, with live show, nothing is a retake. Right. And she had this big top not been thing and and, Dean, we're watching it and all of a sudden, she's like, bouncing right across the stage. Like, she didn't seem like she was I don't know, just that we she was gonna be singing. And she's like jumping and bouncing all over the state and her little like, top not kept growing like Marge Simpson, like really late. I was dying. I was dying. But it stayed there. It just got bigger. It was.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I can just see what the monitors with like the sweat pouring down like don't fall out. Don't fall out. Don't fall out.
Jerilynn Stephens: Just Yeah, exactly. Just just grow and not fall.
Zack Arnold: So the last question that I have for for both of you is given that you've obviously gone through difficult challenges with some long hours here and there. But really, the theme from both of you is that you have found a place where you love what you do you love the people you work with, for the most part, give or take, there's a lot of work life balance, and you have the opportunity in the breathing room to enjoy your craft. What is the best advice you could give a makeup or hair stylist or other somebody in your general department that's just starting out? That really wants to do this as much as you did, but they don't want the industry to completely spit them out and just chew them up?
Jerilynn Stephens: Well, I mean, honestly, work hard. I mean, there's so many people that and I don't mean like work hard, like hours I'm talking about be professional, get the education assist people always take classes, like, level up. Okay. And, and, and because there's so many people I think, and I love young people, I love to encourage young people, but I feel like people, it's that instant gratification. Like they should just have everything. You know, Kimi has been in this business for years I've been in, you know, 27. So it's like, we worked really hard and educating and being professional and being able to run the shows that we do and it's like, I feel like people just kind of take that for granted. Like they just deserve that. Like, I want you to be that person who comes in to assist me or be a part of our team and be like, Okay, what's next? What can I do? Don't ask me what time lunches and what times rap. Okay? Because I usually will put that into a text before you start the show. But it's like, I just want you to be here and be willing, you know and and, and do great work and and just be a great hairstylist.
Zack Arnold: And how about you, Kimi? What advice would you give to somebody that really wants to make it and do the work that they love without the industry completely destroying their soul in the process.
Kimi Messina: I also think that to, you know, definitely learn your chops, you know, I think it's important for people that want to get in this industry to have worked in a salon for, you know, at least five years or more, because it teaches you how to deal with people. First of all, you know, different personalities, there's a lot of personalities that will sit down in that chair, whether they're a background artist, or whether they're an actor, and everybody is unique, and everybody's hair type is unique. So it's good to know how to work with with both of those, you know, different hair types, as well as their personalities. And I think that the salon does that. For you know, with you, you do that in the salon. And in doing that it teaches you the process, you know, the process that you you will be going through, when you start working in a trailer, because you've got the personalities of the people, you're going to work with the sides by talent, you know, and, and watch and listen, learn as much as you can, from everybody in that department, whether it's hair, makeup, even costume, you know, you just learn the whole process of it all. I think the more information you have, and the more you watch, and, and understand that everybody has a job and how it goes, I think is really important. I think that would be my advice, as well as keep some sort of balance that you know, it can't just all be about work. It's great to have, you know, work and you know, go from one job to the next to the next. But at the same time, that's a good way to get burnt out. I think that you know, having a balance of life and lifestyle. And I really feel like a lot of people don't have this in our industry. And this goes for everybody in our industry, they don't keep some sort of physical fitness in their life. You know, and I think that that's a helpful balance for people. It's great for the brain, it's great for the hours that we're going to do, because you'd have to physically be available to do that, you know, so I think that the balance is is really important for people getting into it.
Zack Arnold: Anybody that's listened to me for more than 15 minutes already knows that I agree, because I talk about this all the time. And the one thing that I will either add or say emphasize, that I talked about all the time that I think is so important that you mentioned is process, what so many people do hair and makeup or any department, they see Hollywood and they're always thinking results, I get to work on this show or have this creditor get paid this amount, or I get on a stage someday and win awards. But if you don't like the process, and you can't handle being in a trailer for 10 1214 hours, and dealing with all the things that have to do with your craft, you're not gonna be able to endure that for weeks, months or decades if it's always about the result. So I know that it can be very, you know, a very Buddhist or Zen way of looking at it. But you really have to both understand the process but enjoy the process. Because if you don't, that is just a dark road to burnout. So I think that you hit on a really, really important point there.
Jerilynn Stephens: Yeah, I completely agree with that. It's a you know, if you get to a point where you're just not happy doing what you're doing, you need to find something different. Because we all we all should be doing what we love to do. And I think that I love this I love this career. I love being a part of it in the in the process.
Zack Arnold: So for anybody that is listening, and is thinking to themselves, man, oh, man, I gotta connect with these two and I gotta learn more. And they got to be my new best friends starting with you. Jerilynn I know that you put yourself out there already. How can people find you?
Jerilynn Stephens: On Instagram, I'm Hollywood Hair Stylist Jerilynn Stephens, but Hollywood hairstylist is easier to spell, and Facebook the same thing. My website is my name jerilynnstephens.com. But all of that information is also on Instagram. And I'm an open book.
Zack Arnold: Great. And we'll link to all of it in our show notes too. Yeah, that's the impression that I get which is why I want to make sure that people can find you because when you put yourself out there, you do it because you want to connect with other people and help them and I think that so many people are jaded and cynical in Hollywood and they think well, I can't reach out to her. She's she's been doing this for so long and she's super famous. Why would she want to help me? I'm like she's put herself out there. He's literally saying, Come please talk to me. I want to help you. So I don't know. I just became Seinfeld right there. That was very well.
Jerilynn Stephens: I answer every single DM. I'm not kidding. Unless it's like someone I need to block.
Zack Arnold: Oh, yeah, of course we all get those. But yeah, I'm of the same mind that if somebody took the time to write a thoughtful, meaningful message, whether it's Facebook, Instagram, email or other if it's a genuine outreach, and it's not just for their own means, and they're trying to get a shortcut, I will always read and respond. So anybody that is looking to connect with Jerilynn that is how we do it. And then Kimi, how do they find you?
Kimi Messina: Um, I'm on Instagram as Cut Dry Tease, and Facebook as Cut Dry Tease, or my name Kimi Messina. And, yeah, they could, I don't really have a website, they can reach me on that.
Zack Arnold: I love it. I cannot thank both of you enough for sharing your time sharing your decades of expertise, inspiring those that are listening today and just kind of giving them a little bit clearer roadmap for here's how I can not only be successful in the industry, but I can enjoy it in the process. So thank you both for being here today. Appreciate it.
Kimi Messina: Thank you Zack. Super fun.
This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared by Debby Germino and published by Glen McNiel.
The original music in the opening and closing of the show is courtesy of Joe Trapanese (who is quite possibly one of the most talented composers on the face of the planet).
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