Zack Arnold

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The Current State of Mental Health In Post

About Episode

“How are you?” is a phrase you most likely ask dozens a time per day, but let’s be honest: Most of the time it’s just a formality. When is the last time you really asked this question of others, and even more importantly, when is the last time you asked this question to yourself?

Rather than celebrate the 100th episode of this podcast with fanfare or a fancy celebrity guest, I chose instead to dig deep into the still-taboo topic of mental health with two of my original Fitness In Post beta members from when the program first began in early 2014.

My guests for this episode are editor Monica Daniel and editor turned workflow specialist Kylee Peña, and we discuss the current state of mental health in post-production, the recent tragic death of a fellow member of the post-production community who worked with Monica, and how we can continue to support each other in an industry that chews creative professionals up and spits them out with little care for their well being.

This week’s episode may not be a super fun topic, but I promise it’s an important one you don’t want to miss.

As I say at the end of every episode (and mean sincerely), thank you for listening for the last 100 episodes, I’m just getting started.

Be well.

Transcript

Zack Arnold: I’m here today with Kylie, Pena and Monica Daniel, and this is an incredibly special episode for me, because this is the 100th episode of the fitness and post podcast. So having you guys on the show with me is a tremendous, tremendous pleasure, and I want to thank both of you for being with me on Crazy Nights. It’s late at night, and we’ll find out how much semblance of sanity we have left. But thank you both for being here. Cool.

Monica Daniel: This is actually earlier than I usually record, so this is an early night for me, and this is the first time I’ve done this podcast on the West Coast, so I’m not doing it at midnight.

Zack Arnold: Oh, that’s right, that’s a good point. How about that? Well, for many people that are listening, they probably don’t know that you were two of the very first beta members and the very first beta testing group that I did for fitness and post even before there was a website. So I reached out to a few people in the industry, and I said, I’ve got this bad, crazy idea where I’m going to try and combine better health with post production. And everybody thought I was nuts. You were to the people that didn’t think I was nuts. So the fact that you’re here on the show, I frankly, the fact that we’re doing a 100th episode blows my mind. I still don’t really feel like I know what I’m doing. I certainly know more than I did when I was doing episodes one through 10, but I still just feel like I’m getting my footing under me. And when I look at the website and I’m like, Oh, my God, there’s 100 of these. That kind of blows my mind. That’s really what I want to talk about today, is the mind and sanity and mental health. Like, that’s really where we’re going to go today. And we actually talked a little bit about this with you, specifically Kylie, way back in the day when I started, which is why I wanted to bring up the beta group, because I believe it’s like over two years ago now, or roughly in that era, you wrote an article for creative cow that was titled, How are you? No, really, how are you that was all about mental health, and we did a podcast about this, but that was way back in the beginning, when it was my mom and my beta group that was listening. Now I actually have people that listen to the show. So I really want to go into this topic again, because above and beyond all of the bio hacks and the movement and the fitness and the nutrition and all these things that I talk about, the crux of everything is all about mental health and our sanity in this industry, that’s what brought me into it. Was just my complete and total mental breakdown, burnout, suicidal depression. Anybody that’s listening to this knows my story. That’s where all this started to begin with, and I really want to talk about that today. Where I want to start is the reason that this article came up again, and I’m going to let you go there, Monica, because that’s kind of what brought this topic up. Is something that happened in your life recently? Yes.

Monica Daniel: So I found out not too long ago, and it was just from a random email from a PA that I had worked with on a show about a year ago, and he was like, Hey, I’m just letting you guys know that you know so and so has recently committed suicide last week, And he just let us know about where the memorial was going to be, and he was going to keep us updated if there was going to be something local. And it was emailed to everyone who worked on the show. And you know, I haven’t talked to this pa since I worked on the show, and it was just a complete shock, because I still keep in contact with other people on the show, and I’m actually working with one of the editors from from the show right now, so and our visual effects editor as well. So I’m still, you know, actively working with some of the people I worked with on that original show. And it was just weird and shocking, because we we knew this guy, and I don’t feel bad telling the story now, since he is no longer with us, but he actually quit the show midway through because he was working very, very, very long hours on the show and it was affecting his health. And he just said he you know, he didn’t want to live his life like that anymore, and he actually quit the show midway through the season. I think he actually went to work at a dailies facility, because I think it was just better hours for him. And I hadn’t heard from him since, and just like it was, it was such a shock to me, but I wasn’t completely surprised, because of what I knew of him at the time. Like you could say he could give you some he had some warning signs of depression, and it was a really stressful job on him. I mean, he was working till like two in the morning, and then have to be back at work at 6am like there was really crazy hours. It was just, it wasn’t too surprising, just because of what I knew of him. But in that instance, you know, I didn’t know him very well. It’s like I wasn’t going to get involved in his personal life. But one thing he told me so long ago, we had a conversation where we were just kind of talking about him, and he was probably around. Around 40 ish, and he wasn’t where he wanted to be in the industry. He was working as a post supervisor, and when I chatted with him about, you know, what he really wanted to do, he said he actually came to LA to be a writer, but he was basically too old, and no one would hire him as a writer’s assistant because of ageism, basically. And so he wasn’t happy in his life. And this is a conversation I had with him a year ago. And so, you know, he wasn’t happy where he was. So, I mean, I don’t know what happened between then and now to cause him to commit suicide, but you know, signs were there that, you know, he wasn’t in the best place. But you know, you know, none of us knew what to do. We were all just trying to struggle on a very difficult show to work on. And you know, you don’t want to, you know, impose on people’s, you know, personal lives. If you don’t know them very well, you just assume they have friends and family that they could turn to for that. So it was kind of a it’s kind of an odd week, that week when I found out

Zack Arnold: Well, and the the reason that this is so important to bring up, and this is something that I mentioned a lot, whether I’m doing live presentations, whether I’m doing online presentations, I’ve mentioned this on the podcast before. When I say this, I’m not kidding, but I ask people, is the service that you’re providing right now worth dying for? Is it worth giving your life? And people think, oh, yeah, yeah, my job is tough. No, seriously, this job will kill you. The amount of hours that we put in, the fact that we’re doing in incredibly poor conditions, in the dark and in closed spaces and sedentary can completely mess up your brain chemistry. So if you’re somebody that’s working these long hours. Look at what you’re doing right now. Look at the service that you’re providing the world and ask yourself, Is this service that I’m providing worth dying for? The answer is most likely not. So now we need to talk about, how do we manage this? And that’s something that you’ve really come to the forefront with. Kylie is talking about mental health. You also talk about ageism like this. You’ve really become a voice in our industry for this, and I’m just so proud to have known you. And like, see all the things that you’re doing and like, the the voice that you’ve created is really become a strong one. So I want you to kind of give me a sense of why you’re so passionate about mental health, what you’re seeing in the conversations with other people, and just kind of, what can we do about this? Well,

Kylee Peña: You know, I’m really glad that people have become so receptive. I feel like over the last couple of years, especially, we’re a lot more open and talking about this. I mean, Monica, I’m so sorry that you had to go through that and and that story. The thing that really sticks out to me is that you talk to him about how he wasn’t happy where he was. And I feel like in our industry, that’s kind of like how you’re supposed to feel all the time, like you’re supposed to be wanting more, and kind of like, like you could be happy where you are, but you’re supposed to be kind of like restless and reaching. And if you’re not, then you’re settling and it’s like, where’s the line between knowing when it’s healthy to try to continue to grow, or when it’s like, legit depression? And oftentimes it’s really hard to tell so stuff like that, especially for people just getting into the industry, it’s really hard to navigate that and just being more open and having those conversations and being able for those people to connect with others that can then help them understand what they’re going through, and that everyone has these challenges, and some people need extra help. Knowing that that’s all good and valid is really important to me. One

Zack Arnold: Thing that you have talked about in the past in our other podcasts and in your article that I want to kind of go into a little bit deeper, that you mentioned briefly, is this idea of, how do you kind of know if it’s just, well, this is way that I feel, this is the way that it’s supposed to be, or is there a larger problem, and I know that you’ve written about that, and it’s really about, first of all, looking at your self and wondering, how do I know the difference? And then, like in Monica’s case, how do you know when somebody else perhaps needs the help in the intervention, or are they just having a bad day, or are they grumpy? So talk a little bit about that, because I know that you’ve talked to other people, you’ve done some research, so let’s kind of get a sense of helping people understand what’s the difference between, I’m tired and I’m having a bad day, versus there’s a problem here that I need to start addressing.

Kylee Peña: Well, it’s really difficult because it it can change. I think from day to day. We had a panel with the blue collar post collective group recently in LA and we had a licensed marriage and family therapist on it, and we asked her that question, and she basically said, you have to really understand yourself and be very introspective and take some time to step back and kind of. Investigate everything, and most of all, have a good community around you and listen to them like, if, if someone comes up to you and says, Hey, you’re not yourself, maybe take that into account. I know Natalie, who is on this show regularly. She she talked about how someone approached her and basically said, Hey, are you okay? And she didn’t even realize she wasn’t, so that that’s what it took for her. But if you’re on your own, I think it’s important to watch yourself closely and see like some people, they’re really anxious, they’re working really hard on a project, and then they’re like, we’re just working toward the end, working toward the end, working toward the end, and then when we get to the end, I’m going to get a break. It’ll be okay. And then the end comes and the break happens, and they never really unwind and and that just piles on and on. And at that point you have to, you have to actually make some changes physically, or see someone, a therapist, a doctor, and just investigate that. And I think it’s also worth mentioning that therapists aren’t just for crazy people. Therapists are for everyone so and I think that a lot more people in this industry might benefit from having someone to talk to that is trained to do that.

Monica Daniel: I think it’s hard, especially feeling safe, like you could talk to people about it, because this is a very competitive industry. People will backstab you. They’ll throw you under the bus. Happens all the time. Seen it happen, so I think that’s a major issue as well. Like Zack, when I’ve had some when I’ve been was struggling a little bit, and I was well aware of it, like I would, I would get in touch with you, because I knew you understood, and it was like you were a safe person to talk to about this, where I wouldn’t be judged. And I think it’s hard to find people like that, especially if you’re struggling and you don’t have that trusted person. If you you know, if you’re younger and you’re still trying to find your own confidence in yourself, I think it’s because I’ve, I’ve been in the industry for a while, in a sense, I’ve had to start over a little bit, but at the same time, I still have, like, a decade of experience behind me, so I went through that like process in my 20s where I was just pushing myself to the point where it’s unhealthy. And now that I have that, even though I’ve gone back to assisting and scripted and I’ve had to kind of reevaluate how I approach things because of how people view assistance, I still have that decade of experience and maturity behind me, or it’s, you know, if someone’s treating me badly and they’re the cause of my mental distress, I know it’s not my fault. It’s on them, but I’m going to have to deal with it because of the position I’m in. It’s weird and hard, and that’s usually when I end up calling you Zack. When I was like, this is probably not a good thing that I’m losing feeling in my face, which I did contact you and I told you that you’re like, No, I’m like, Yeah, that’s I know that’s not good. But maybe if I was, you know, younger and didn’t have all that experience behind me, I would just think, you know, I’m a failure. I’m just not working hard enough. I’m not good enough. But I knew that wasn’t the issue. The issue was I was working with someone who is maybe not the best person to be working with, and I think it’s hard for people to deal with that, especially if you know they feel like they have no power. They have no power in themselves, or no one else to reach to that feels like a safe place to talk about it.

Zack Arnold: Yeah. And I think to couple that with what Kylie said, it’s so important to find somebody else to talk to. And one thing that I’ve really tried to get out there into the world of post and the world of health is that you should not be ashamed if you want to talk to somebody, you should not be ashamed if you see a therapist. I mean a psychotherapist, literally saved my life like that. There’s no ifs ands or buts about that. I was suicidally depressed. I had, it’s like you said, Kylie, you just kind of don’t even know you’re just you’re so in the dark, you’re so in that hole that you don’t even realize that things are that bad. But I got to the point where I said, All right, things are that bad, and I have no idea how to get out of this. I need to talk somebody. And my entire world opened up as soon as I started getting the thoughts out of my head, and I started to synthesize them and talk to other people. But it’s not like I was telling everybody that I knew, hey, I’m going to psychotherapy, because there is this stigma around it, and that’s starting to change. But this was over 10 years ago now, I think it was 10 or 12 years ago now that I went through all this, and I was working by myself. I was, I mean, I was working with a director and a producers on a film, but it’s not like I was in an office space with 20 people. I was working from home in my own like little, tiny pseudo edit suite. So I was really on my own on an island, but I knew that something was terribly wrong when my girlfriend at the time said, Hey, can you take out the trash? And I broke down in tears like. That’s not normal behavior for a 25 year old male that should be in good shape. So when you start to notice these factors, you have to realize that you need to reach out for help, and it’s okay, and it doesn’t mean you’re a failure.

Kylee Peña: Yeah, definitely. And I think something for people to keep in mind if, if they’re thinking, Oh, I’m fine, there’s nothing fine, I would I would know is, I think there’s a tendency for people in obviously, there’s a tendency, especially for editors, to really, you know, when you’re in the middle of a project, you’re really digging into that, and then the hours just go by, and then you don’t even realize you haven’t peed or eaten in, like, 10 hours. And then suddenly you come up for air, and you’re like, Oh my God. Like, that’s what happens to people that have mental health issues, too. If you’ve experienced that, then that’s basically what it’s like. So keeping that in mind that can happen to anybody, and it happens to all of us.

Monica Daniel: Yeah, I mean, one thing I chose to do recently too, it’s I’ve been trying to be really aware of just like one I need a break. And unfortunately, for the last year I haven’t had much of a break. I had to force a break between my current show in the show before that, where I basically was like, I’m taking two weeks off. I am unavailable out of town. And they even asked me if I could start earlier. I was like, nope. Sorry. Book tickets. Have a hotel. I’m going to Comic Con for a week, and doing that completely for me. And that’s, I’m sorry, guys, I could help you find a replacement. Like, I offered a solution, but they ended up being like, actually, no. The other assistant can cover for you. It’s only for a couple days. It’s fine. And the world didn’t end. I didn’t lose my job. It’s actually I, you know, I really love working on my current show, and they were okay with it

Zack Arnold: Well. and I think that’s one thing that people need to realize, is that as much as you get wrapped up in the project and the deadlines, like we’re making entertainment and we’re not saving lives, when we don’t have somebody with open heart surgery sitting on the table where you just have to power through until that life is saved. Most producers and executives want to make you think that that’s the situation that we’re in, but we’re really, really not. And I think it’s first of all important to have that understanding that, hey, what we’re doing, is it important? Yes, is it something that we’re passionate about? Yes, we’re passionate about it, but we’re not saving lives, we’re not curing cancer, we’re making TV, we’re making movies, we’re making commercials, we’re making YouTube videos, whatever it is, these things are not worth giving our life, or even if you don’t want to be that drastic, they’re not worth giving away ourselves or giving away our well being. That’s something that we need to protect, and that’s what’s really been at the heart of what I’m so passionate about, is trying to teach people the tools to be able to do that, and going towards what you have said, Kylie, about this idea of, you know, when you’re kind of in it, and you’re, you know, working on a project, and you’re pushing through, and you’re pushing through, what people have to realize is that when you start to feel these depressive symptoms, or you don’t even realize that you feel them, you Start to blame yourself and think, Well, I’m a failure, or I am weak, like I went through all of that thinking that, well, I’m just I’m not working as hard as the other people, or I just don’t have the stamina. But if you start to realize that it’s not so much about you, it’s about the environment that you’re in, and it’s completely destroying your brain chemistry, rather than looking at yourself as a failure, you can say, Oh, well, what I’m going through is really just a product of my environment, because you’re putting out a tremendous amount of creative energy, and you’re burning tremendous amounts of energy in your brain that can be measured, and you’re doing it in a sedentary environment, in a dark room, where you’re completely scattered, as far as your exposure to light to darkness. Like, these are the same tactics that people use when they’re trying to torture people and extract information from them. Like, that’s not hyperbole. If you want to torture somebody and you want to, like, completely render them insane, change their schedule to light and darkness, put them in dark rooms, don’t let them know what time of day it is, and sleep deprive them, and you can render somebody clinically insane. So if you’re thinking, well, it’s just me, and I’m a weak person, it’s not just you. It’s the product of the environment of the work that we do.

Kylee Peña: Yeah, and in post, there is a tendency for every little thing to like snowball and become a thing. So you’re always kind of on the defensive, waiting for, you know, somebody that’s going to have a note coming back, or there’s going to be a big technical issue, you’re just and then you’re trying to triage it or prevent it from going even higher. And it’s hard for most people in post to to fight that particular aspect of the environment, because it kind of trickles down from the top, and people tend to escalate it and escalate it and make it a bigger, bigger deal. So you really do have to try your best to just keep in mind like, Yes, this is important, but it’s not that important. And when you reach. Point in your career when you have more influence over your environment, like, actually make the effort to do so. Like, I try to remind people to go actually look at the sun occasionally. Or we go for walks outside, things like that. I’ve heard of other people in Edit rooms, you know, actually getting up and going out. I worked with an editor once that every hour, whether there was a producer in the room or not, he’s like, I’m getting up and going outside. So if you are in that place where you can basically make that change or introduce that kind of influence, then then do it, and it’ll serve everyone really well,

Monica Daniel: Actually, and what me and my current editor do, and you could totally make fun of me, Kylie, because I was giving everyone so much crap about playing Pokemon. At first, I blame my kids, because my kids, like think so highly of me and keep making me and my husband compete because we have separate Pokemon accounts, and they my son gets really upset when I beat my husband at a part of the game. But me and my editor get to work really early before our shift starts, and we’re like, Hey, want to go on a poke walk? We’re like, sure, and we get there early enough that we end up finding Pokemon for an hour, and we’ll walk because we work on the universal back lot. So we’re like, this is awesome. We’ll walk through the Metro sets and, you know, walk by jaws, and, you know, we just go play Pokemon, and we end up walking like, three miles in the morning before we even start work. And we’re always really productive on those days, and we feel great. And we’re just like, Oh, that was awesome. And, you know, people might not realize this, but the back lot is very hilly. It’s tiring, and that’s something like we do. And, you know, we don’t even think about it as exercise, even though we’re like, yeah, we want our walk, even though we’re doing it to exercise, but we make it a game. We just like, goof off and just play Pokemon, go on our phones and, like, chat about things for an hour, and we do it, like, three to four times a week, and it’s been really good for us, like, because I haven’t done that on other shows, just because, you know, no one wants to walk with me for an hour, and I haven’t been at a place as cool as the back lot. So, so it’s been really good for both of us. It’s been really good for, you know, our attitudes, just general attitudes. We’re very positive, and we’re having a great time on the show. And I think a lot of it is attributed to that, you know, we both want to be healthy, physically and mentally healthy, as much as we can, as much as our time allows, and we do it together well.

Zack Arnold: And I think that that’s really important, that you bring that up because there are two sides of this conversation that really interests me, the first of which is, well, how do I prevent this from happening in the first place, if I can’t get myself out of this environment? And then the next in question, which to me is the most important question, is, if I am in this how do I get out of it? So I love that you brought up that you’re trying to prevent, that you’re trying to get outside. You’re trying to take walks. And really, this is all just about brain chemistry. This isn’t about whether or not you’re a strong person or a weak person or like, I’m gonna wear my sleep deprivation badge of honor and I’m gonna beat everybody, and I’m gonna do more work than everybody. Like, that’s a recipe for disaster. And if there’s one mission that I could achieve by creating this program and having it last is getting rid of that sleep deprivation badge of honor, because if there’s one thing that’s going to lead you down the road to depression more than anything else, it’s sleep deprivation. So that would be the first place that I would go is that you need to be way more careful and way more protective of your sleep. And then the second would be movement and activity, which is something that you’re already doing now. Kylie, you I remember when you moved out to LA were you working a night shift for a while? Or am I mistaken when I remember

Kylee Peña: That I was before

Monica Daniel: Graveyards are the worst. Sorry, graveyards are the worst. Actually,

Kylee Peña: I worked night shift right before I moved for a few episodes of a show at the end of a season. And it’s really funny, it was partially due to the circumstances of my life at that time, but I actually never felt better than when I was doing working dailies overnight, because I was monitoring my sleep and my eating so closely to make sure I had enough fuel to get through the night. I was like, Oh my God, I feel amazing all the time. And then you don’t really hear that much from people. And again, I think it was partially because of some other things, but I was feeling pretty good so but now I work. I work during the day, and I’m on call overnight, and I regularly get my sleep messed up very regularly, which is really hard to deal with.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and that, to me, is that’s the number one road that you have to be careful with, because I noticed that as anybody that listens to this or reads anything that I write knows I’m a self proclaimed workaholic, and if I’m going down. The road where I’m working on a really intense project, and even if it’s a short term deadline, if it’s just two weeks or three weeks of craziness, if I don’t monitor my sleep, even for those two weeks, that can cost me months on the back end of recovery, of burnout, of depression, like I’ve been there more times than I care to admit. So that’s the first place to prevent more than anything else, is sleep. The second one is exposure to light. That is another huge one that is going to affect your circadian rhythms, affect your sleep, and thus completely alter your brain chemistry to the point where you are depressed and you can barely function in the day. So when you were saying Monica, that you’re going outside, not only are you being active, but getting that sunlight makes a huge difference in just the way that your hormones function and your brain chemistry, and will also ultimately affect the way that you’re sleeping. And this is actually something that I’m diving into extensively right now, like this is where all of my time and research is going, is into the science of sleep, how to manage a graveyard shift, like all these different things. So I’m really digging deep into this. It’s funny because I actually just had this conversation with Natalie in a previous episode as well. But this is a really, really big thing, and what I also think is really funny is you saying that you never felt better working on the graveyard shift. And I don’t think it’s because you’re working the graveyard shift, I think that you already kind of put your your finger on why it was it’s because you were so conscious of everything else about your health that because you were aware of it and you were making better choices, that’s where your energy was coming from, despite the fact that you had a really crappy sleep schedule.

Kylee Peña: Yeah, it was partially I where I was working in Atlanta at the time, there was nowhere around where I could even begin to make bad choices about like eating dinner too, because there’s nothing open and just outside Atlanta at 3am and part of the dailies processing is that you typically go in at a different time each day, depending on when Production calls. So I was going in anywhere between 6pm and 11pm and sometimes one or 2am to start my my work. And it did get a little hard when when it was like one or 2am because your body just doesn’t want to wake up at that time. That’s unnatural, but I monitor it really closely because I was worried that I wouldn’t be able to get through an eight to 12 hour, usually 12 hour shift between 7pm and 7am and I don’t, I never really thought about it during the day, like I don’t worry about getting through the daytime because it’s not as challenging, but it’s kind of all the same thing. What

Zack Arnold: Do you mean by that? It’s kind of all the same thing?

Kylee Peña: I mean, whether it’s day or night, you’re still you’re sleeping, and then you’re going to work. And it’s easier during the day because it’s daylight, I guess. But I mean, really, it doesn’t matter for most of our work, because it’s all done in a room without windows. So I don’t know, I was paying so close attention, and I never really tried to apply it to day side working before. Well,

Zack Arnold: It’s actually, I wasn’t even thinking about going here, but this does really directly tie into this idea of depression and mental health. But it’s so interesting that you say, well, it doesn’t really matter, because you know, you’re still working in dark rooms and you’re still sleeping roughly the same amount of hours. But what extensive research has actually found is that if you’re working a graveyard shift, even if you’re getting seven to eight hours, it has now been classified as a class to a carcinogen, which means that it’s actually causing cancer, no different than smoking or doing the many other things that are classified as carcinogens, because even though You may be getting a similar sleep schedule, your hormonal balance is completely based on the circadian rhythms of being a human being, which is designed to function during the daytime. Like we’re not nocturnal creatures, we are daytime creatures. And I had this conversation a little bit in the Q and A podcast that came out previously, and I’m actually going much deeper into the subject in a later podcast, but that is the prevailing notion that, oh, well, you know, I’m still getting my sleep. So what’s the big deal? It is a tremendous deal. And you’re actually shortening your lifespan if you’re chronically working night shifts. So that’s just another layer on top of all the factors that we already have as editors and creative professionals working in dark rooms. If you’re doing it at night, you’re just piling everything on top. So you have even more of a propensity to deal with mental health issues because of that.

Kylee Peña: Well, that sucks.

Zack Arnold: It does. I mean that there’s no better way to say it than that. But yes, it sucks, and it’s pretty terrifying. The deeper you get into the scientific research about sleep and especially about working the graveyard shift. But the next factor that I want to talk about, and this is something that I know that you’ve done some research on, and you mentioned in your article, is the fact that creative people, especially writers and editors, which I kind of classify as the same thing, I don’t really separate them that much, other than the tools that we use, because we’re so. Writers, but we have a much higher propensity to be depressed and also be classified as major depressives or even be bipolar. So talk a little bit about what you have found out through the research that you did for this article about the fact that creative people are just much more depressive people to begin with.

Kylee Peña: Yeah, I don’t really separate writers and editors all that much either, I feel like it’s kind of the same skill set, the same part of your brain, whatever, and I found that writers are 50% more likely to commit suicide, and people in creative fields were 8% more likely to have bipolar and by nature, people with bipolar disorder are also way more likely to commit suicide. So for whatever reason, whatever drives people into creative, creative industries, there’s also something about us by nature that kind of puts us more at risk for this kind of thing. And then we go into these environments where we’re working all these crazy hours, overnights, under really high stress situations, and it it makes it a lot worse.

Monica Daniel: I think it’s one of the things with creativity, and especially just even when I worked as an editor and when I was working on the red carpet stuff, no, I they, I earned the respect and the the right that they would just be like, Oh, can you just make this look good? And it’s like, that was my direction, so it was all on me to make it good, and I just had to hope they didn’t hate it, that I didn’t let them down that one time.

Kylee Peña: Yeah,

Monica Daniel: Put so much trust in me, and it’s like, there’s so much that gets put on the editors, but at the end, it’s like, it all falls on you, in a sense, but you have no power over the final product, really, as far as it getting approved. Like, you know, one person could look at your work and be like, This is great, and then a different could be like, This is terrible. That is very confusing. It’s like, am i Great? Am I terrible? Like, what is this? And you have no control over you know what one person versus another is going to decide to have an opinion on your work. And it it’s very confusing, because you’re always questioning your value. Like, God, am I do? I suck. I’m a I hear that come out of editor’s mouths all the time. They’re just like, Man, I just feel like I suck, and it’s like, you don’t suck. You were like, given two days for this impossible to ask, and you only had what you had to work with in the amount of time you were given. It’s fine. You didn’t write it. It’s such a confusing position to be in, and that definitely doesn’t help. That’s where you just kind of have to be able to step back. And the other problem is, whether you suck or not, you could be a great editor, but if some you know, someone with the big ego is like, you know, I don’t like your work, I’m gonna fire you. You’re replaceable. You know, I know editors, you know, they’re in constant fear of being fired, and it’s not because they’re bad editors. It’s because someone above just decided, you know, I want to try someone else, like they’re disposable. And you know, not everyone was like that, but a lot of people are, and you know, they’ll take pride in firing people and just trying someone else, and it really messes with your head and your own self worth is, you know, an artist and creative person, and that definitely does not help.

Kylee Peña: Yeah, there’s a there’s this tendency for us to really want to get our value from what others think of us, whether it’s a producer or an executive or a director, and you, you can’t let someone’s criticism define you. Your job doesn’t define you. Their criticism doesn’t define you, like you don’t get your value from those around you. You are valuable. A lot of people forget, I think, as they get deeper into this industry, that they they have all these amazing skills, because you might run into a circumstance like you said, where someone doesn’t agree with you and that that bad day doesn’t define your career. I

Zack Arnold: Could not say that any better. And I can also say I don’t know if I’ve even talked about this publicly on the show, but since you brought up Monica, the idea that, basically, editors are dispensable, and we can just be replaced. You’re talking to a very dispensable editor that was fired on a show recently. The week before I was fired, I got an email saying we are just so blown away by how amazing the scene was that you cut like we’re so excited to have you on board like you had such a unique take on it. Can I tell you how happy we are with the decision that we made. A week later, I get a call from my agent saying they’ve decided they want to go another direction. And I was like, wait, what? Like, it doesn’t even make any sense. And if that had happened to me five years ago, that would have been six months of depression, like I would have fallen into a deep, dark cave in my head, I would have shut the world. Out, and I would have said, Did I make the right choice in my career? Like, what am I doing? Am I really good at what I do? But I was like, Okay, I guess I’m looking for another job now, because I wasn’t the right fit. Like, it’s kind of like when you’re in a relationship, it’s like, All right, well, I’m not a bad person. I don’t think they were bad people, like, they had their own creative vision. So I’m just gonna find another place that works. But after about 24 hours of just complete and total shock, I was like, Okay, I’m just gonna move on and find the next one. But that’s because I spent so much time trying to build up my health and build up the sense that all right, well, I do have value, and that is why I wanted to bring up this idea of editors and writers, because it’s just another one of those factors where I’m trying to kind of stack all these factors that we have against us. Because if there are people listening, and I would guess that there are a fair number of people listening to this conversation right now that are saying, oh my god, like this is me, and I get these emails all the time now, like I’m dealing with burnout and I’m exhausted and I have no energy, and I’m worried that I’m slipping into depression, and I’m working 16 hours a day, and I’m working with producers and directors that are very hard to deal with, like, if you’re listening to that right now, and you’re slipping into that dark hole again, I’m stacking all these factors. Number one, we have the darkness. We have the fact that you’re, you know, working long hours, you have sleep deprivation. One thing we haven’t even talked about is the lack of proper nutrition and how that’s going to affect your biochemistry, but now you get into this propensity of being highly creative, like a writer or an editor, and the fact that our job and our value is based so much on the opinions of other people, like we live and die by our notes. And I’m sure that you guys have been through this where you hand something in, you’re like, oh, for the love of God, I hope I don’t get 27 pages of single space notes like I just, I believe in what I did, and I know that it’s good, and please don’t rip it apart like that. Can take an emotional toll on you in this industry.

Monica Daniel: Yeah, there was one show I was editing on, and it was, it was a while ago, and it was, you know, when, after I’d, you know, I’d been a lead editor for a while, you know, I’d established reputation, and we just had a really rude EP who did not hold back in his notes and was really like snarky and inappropriately unprofessional in his notes. And there was a cut of a show that was handed to me that was kind of a mess, and I had to clean it up in one shift. And I told the post producer working with me, I’m like, Look, this isn’t ready to be sent out. You know the mess I was handed like, there’s I need more time. They’re like, they watch it, you know what? They’re like, know what? It’s fine. We could send it forward, and then I get that email from the executive producer, just like being the worst person ever. And was like, Who cut this blah, blah, blah. And I saw the notes, and I told the post producer. I was like, this cut isn’t ready. It was a mess when it was given to me. I need more time to fix it. And I was like, am I getting fired? And my post manager is like, Oh, hell no, you’re not getting fired. Don’t even worry about it. I was like, okay, but you know, things like that, it’s just people don’t realize, you know, my I had protection set up that, you know, people knew my value, and they weren’t going to let some outside EP like, step all over me. Like it was just uncalled, completely uncalled for. That’s the kind of stuff editors have to deal with, and it could be completely unfair, and out of nowhere, luckily, I have protection. Others wouldn’t be and they would have been fired, and that’s just what people have to deal with. And I try to mentor as much as I can, not just as far as the technical skills, and just help guiding people in their careers, like with the several pas I’ve worked with, like, you know, no one likes getting other people lunch. No one likes having to get three different lunches at three different places. And what I tell them, I was like, Look, you’re not going to be a PA forever, but what you learn from this, you will always have to serve a master, and it’s only going to get harder from here. So if you can get the lunches right, that’s the easiest thing you’re going to have to do, because it’s just going to get harder. So you need to learn to be okay with that. Do your best job, because people like being fed, and they will notice that you’re making the effort and you’re doing it with a smile. And so I try to remind people that, you know, it’s just people starting out in their careers, and especially with I’m trying to help more reality assistants get into scripted because someone let me in. So I’m as much as I’m allowed, as I can. A lot of people will not take resumes of reality assistance for scripted but when they when they do get their shot. Someone recently was tired and scripted that I knew that I was so happy for, and she was worried. She was like, I don’t know if I could handle the show. Might be too much of a big step. And I was like, no, no. You have been assisting for four years. You are a professional assistant editor. You. Got this, trust me, you will have to be grouping two cameras instead of creating entire timelines of sync maps. You have the skills. You just have to learn the workflow. So don’t worry about it. And it’s just people always doubting themselves, and just like sending these mental traps for themselves. And you know, as much as I can is when people come to me, I try to help guide them past, you know, the own hurdles and, you know, uncertainty that they create for themselves because they just want things so badly. And I know it’s only going to get worse once they move up the ranks. Just the stress gets worse and worse once you start diving into the more creative realms. Because just, you know, it just all depends on the opinion of your boss.

Kylee Peña: Yeah, you work your way up that chain, and you just keep working on things that are bigger budget, more people, different studios, and bigger egos. And it just, it just gets harder and harder to manage all that as you go. But you have to remember that you were hired for a reason, you bring value. You have all these unique skills. And I think when you are thrown into something that you’re not necessarily comfortable with, there’s definitely a tendency to forget that. You hear perfectly qualified, and it’s okay if you’re scared, but yeah,

Zack Arnold: I agree with all of this. And we could probably do two hour, two part show just on this idea of transitioning and working from one area to the next. And frankly, I believe that you and I and Monica have probably done this a couple of times in the past, where we’ve talked about transitioning from one thing to the next. And I actually believe it’s the most popular podcast of the 100 that I’ve done. So I can link to that.

Monica Daniel: That’s cool. What

Zack Arnold: I really want people to walk away with before we’re done with the show, because I really want to stay focused on the idea of mental health, is the idea that this is so far beyond your control once you get there, so you can control it. As far as prevention is concerned, as far as controlling your environment and controlling your behaviors, controlling your exposure to light, all these things. But once you’re there, you need to, you need to understand. And this is something that I know you talk about in your article, Kylie, and this is something we talked about on our past podcast way back in the day, is that there’s not something wrong with you that you need to keep away from people. So think about it this way, if all of a sudden you went to the doctor and they said, We’re sorry, but you’ve got type one diabetes, you’re not going to just all of a sudden hide in a shell and feel absolutely awful about yourself and who you are because you’ve been diagnosed with type one diabetes, somebody’s going to say, Oh, what happened? You’re like, you’re not going to believe it, like, I was just diagnosed with this. We need to start looking at mental health the same way. And I know that you agree with this, because you write about this where, if you have mental health issues, like, we need to be willing to talk about it and address it, no different than any other type of disease, because it’s just a disease and a mismanagement of all of your brain chemicals. So talk a little bit more about that and this idea that we just, we need to be more outspoken about this and just stop thinking like it’s just we have a scarlet letter and nobody can know.

Kylee Peña: Yeah, I guess people kind of associate mental illness with like having a personality flaw, instead of it being an actual disease, which is what it is. It’s like you don’t, you don’t take your high blood pressure or your type one diabetes as like a personal flaw that you brought on yourself and you have to quietly deal with on your own. It should be something that that can be talked about so that a community can grow around it. I guess mental health is tied so much to perceived weakness. People think if I have depression, people are going to perceive me as weak or I feel like a weak person, but you would never think of yourself like that if you went to the doctor and and they told you you had any other physical disease? So people just need to think about how, like your brain can be diagnosed with the disease, just like your feet or your heart or your lungs, and you have to take care of yourself after that point, to manage that, to keep yourself healthy. And part of that is talking to people about how it makes you feel and how it affects you. And you know, if you need to take a day off to to manage that, that needs to be okay, things like that. We just need to erase the stigma so that people feel comfortable talking about whatever challenges they might be facing, whether they have a diagnosis or not, and

Zack Arnold: That’s really what I want people to walk away with, more than anything, because we’ve talked about the prevention now we’re talking about being in that hole. And the fact that it’s not just you, but if somebody’s listening and they’re thinking, This is me and I’m in that hole, the next step that I would suggest, and I would assume that both of you would agree, because you’ve both alluded to it already, is that you’re not going to get out of the hole by yourself. I’ve been there. You need to reach out to somebody, whether it is just a friend, whether it’s the fitness and post program, whether it’s your mom, whether it’s Monica and Kylie on Twitter, whether it’s a professional, you got to get out of the space that you created in your own mind and start talking to other people and reach out. Like that’s really what this is about, is creating that comfortable and understanding community of people we all deal with this like I could go to an editing event with 500 people and throw a rock into the audience, and most likely, I’m gonna hit somebody that’s dealt with depression,

Kylee Peña: Right? And I want to reiterate that anyone is welcome to ever reach out to me on Twitter or email or whatever if they want to talk about this. The reason I wrote this article originally is because one of my closest friends suffers from severe depression and anxiety on top of some other diagnoses, and watching him struggle through that, and knowing his potential and what he’s capable of when he’s feeling well, and just seeing him beaten down by by this disease, and knowing he can’t really talk about it, because, especially with men, it’s really hard to discuss your feelings. I guess it’s it’s really hard to watch someone that you love go through that. And I just want to change the culture so that people like him can can thrive in in this industry and all other industries.

Monica Daniel: And one thing, some suggestions I have and how I, you know, with the family and work, and it’s my life gets a little crazy sometimes, all the things I do, though, not as crazy as your Zack. I don’t think you know, I like to, if I can feel myself, I try to be really aware of, kind of my mental state. And if I could kind of feel myself kind of falling a little bit, I was just like, you know, I just need to, I need to go take a walk. You know, it’s like, when you when you push, like, fitness and post and exercise, I think people might misunderstand, it’s like, oh, I need to do some heavy duty program. It’s like, that’s not what I’m doing right now. What I do, I walk. Everyone can walk. If you’re able to walk to your car, you can take a walk. It really does help a lot. And what I like to do, as well as since, since I actually have my own dedicated office, I actually put pictures up everywhere, and I decorate. And now I might have little toys or fragrance or whatever, but I have, and I have pictures of my family. It’s like, you know, if I just need a break from work or I just need something to make me smile, I have it in my office, like I have my my artwork. I have pictures of my family. I have silly little toys I can play with. I stand on my balance board, which is always fun, to surround myself by things that kind of can keep me from just falling flat on my face. And, you know, that kind of stuff really helps but, but, you know, you have to be willing to admit to yourself that you need that. I know I need that too. You know, sometimes when during the really rough times. It’s like, okay, I need this. And also, when you just sometimes you just need to do something that’s completely for yourself, like, you know, I’ll go on the weekend and be like, Guess what, kids, we’re going to Disneyland. Because I love going to Disneyland for my kids, and I think I do it more for me than for them, but I like hanging out with them, so it’s fine, but that’s something I do for myself. Has nothing to do with work, has nothing to do with post production or editing. It’s just me being a kid with my kids in a giant kids theme park that is great to me, and it just completely changes my demeanor. Kind of resets things for me, and I know some people like photography, or they like going to the beach or surfing or whatever it is. But it’s like people need to remember, even during the hectic times, like, even if you only have time a couple hours at night, do something that’s completely for yourself. Go watch a movie, or, you know, you need to do something that’s for you, like be selfish, you need to remember it’s okay to be selfish if you need it.

Zack Arnold: Well, not only is it okay, but it’s really just a part of your own survival. And I love the idea of the pictures and kind of making your office your own, because that’s one thing about our industry, specifically that’s so difficult, is that if you’re a banker or an accountant or a lawyer like you might have the same job for five or 10 years, and you really get a chance to make your office your own. In our environment, some people have a new office every day. Some have a new office every week. If you’re super lucky, you have the same office for like, six months, but that’s it, and I personally have a kid. It that I bring to every office, and Natalie always makes fun of me. She’s like, you’ve got so much crap that you move from one edit suite to the next. Because she’s been with me on so many different jobs that she sees me move in and out. But what I’m doing is I’m creating an environment that’s going to help keep me emotionally stable. So if I’m on a show that is ridiculously stressful with crazy producers, with tons of pressure, and all of a sudden, I get 27 pages of single space notes with time code on a Friday night, I want something on my wall that’s going to remind me why. Why is this important right now, and why in the world am I stuck in this room doing this? I have all kinds of pictures that I bring of my kids and my wife and my family. So that way I just turned my head and like, that’s why I’m dealing with this right now. This is who I’m providing for that helps with my mental health. So if you’re in an environment where there are a lot of just wall after wall after wall and room after room after room, of these empty spaces that just have nothing but edit bays in them and computers make the space your own that alone will have a tremendous impact on your mental health. And like you all so said, like fitness and post is not about training for Spartan Races and doing all this intense activity. It is just about moving more and being more active and trying to kill the sedentary lifestyle that we have. So I’m a huge proponent of just getting out and moving and walking, but for me, and I’ve talked about it already, but if there’s one thing, if somebody said, name one thing that you would do to prevent going into depression, or if you feel yourself slipping there to get out of it, it’s sleep. No question, even just a few weeks ago, when I was dealing with latest enrollment period for bringing all the new students into the move yourself program. I was working longer hours than I usually do, and I already felt that tinge of depression. I’m like, I feel it. I feel the anxiety creeping up. I can feel it in the pit of my stomach. I can feel it in the way that I’m thinking. So I just said, I gotta sleep. I gotta get high quality, long nights of sleep. And after a couple of days, I was fine. Once you’re in the hole, you can’t do that anymore, and that’s when you need to seek help. So that’s what this is all about, is giving people that confidence, that it’s okay, it’s not my fault. I didn’t do this, and I need to seek the professional help to get me out of it. So do we have any last words from either of the two of you before we kind of wrap this up, because I want to be respectful of your time and the fact that I’m taking away from your sleep time, so

Monica Daniel: I’d probably be up late reading anyway, reading relaxes me, and I fall asleep holding a book. Mario has caught me so many times with a book in my hand as I’m asleep, drooling on my pillow. You know another thing I’d like to say, and anyone who follows me on a Facebook knows this, I kind of, I didn’t always dress this much like Punky Brewster, but I have a lot recently, and I think my daughter brings it out of me, and it’s kind of a way of just kind of externalizing my external creativity, which is or internal creativity, which is actually therapeutic for me, like I dress in some like, very brightly colored childish clothes. At times, people know all about my glittery sneakers, and I would think I was wearing Star Trek constellation leggings today, and I just wear funny shirts, and I’ll wear like a TARDIS doctor who dress to work, and I don’t care what people think of me. I was just like, You know what? This reminds me not to take myself too seriously. But when I have work to do, I get it done and it just it’s therapeutic for me because I’m doing it just for me. My daughter wants all my clothes. She told me today, Mommy, you have the coolest clothes. And that made me feel so good. So even just little things like that, when you add all the little things together, the things I do to like, stay sane in such like a crazy, stressful world of deadlines, where you’re dealing with a million different personalities and people, Kylie being one of them. Actually, me and Kylie work on the same show in different departments. You know, all these little things that I do for myself add up, and I feel like a healthier person overall, because I’m okay with who I am, how I dress, all the silly things I have in my office. And I found because I’m okay with myself, people are okay with me being like that. You know, people don’t criticize me because I wear silly shirts sometimes. So I just try not to take myself too seriously, because that’s usually a problem and probably on, kind of on a more serious note, when, when trigger. I know that if I’m out socially and like, when I went to the BC, BC mixer, a trigger, I know that if I want to drink, that’s not a good sign. If people offer me a drink and I’m like, Yeah, okay, then I’m fine. But if I’m like, yes, please give me a drink, I know that’s not a good sign and I shouldn’t be drinking, because alcohol does not help. Yeah, and it’s hiding from how you’re feeling. So that’s like another trigger I recognize in myself, but all the little things I think add up to help you get through just this industry and just being aware and, you know, trying to stay mentally healthy.

Kylee Peña: And speaking of sleep deprivation and us working together. I actually was up at 2am last night fixing a raid that went down on the show that we’re both working on. So you’re causing my mental health. I

Monica Daniel: Was very polite to you. I was very polite to you when I emailed you this morning. Another thing, if you’re friends with people on a show, you still need to be professional with them, because other people are CC on that email and don’t realize that you’re friends.

Zack Arnold: Yes, that’s a good aside, for sure.

Kylee Peña: But on a more serious note, when I was in college, I wanted to be in post production from when I was 14 and when I was in college and got out of college, I was incredibly competitive, and I worked so hard, day and night on whatever I could get. And I always figured when I made it to LA I would be the same way I would be just working whatever hours it took. But I’ve realized as I got older and had more and more experience through my 20s that prioritizing self care is the most important thing. You have to prioritize self care as much as you prioritize your career growth. And now that I’m in LA, I’m I was kind of surprised at myself that how not competitive I was. The things that are important to me, obviously, my career is important, but I’m also prioritizing myself. I’m not taking side jobs. I’m trying to mentor people mostly, and I’m not, I’m not taking part of the cutthroat culture, and I feel like I wish I had realized that a lot earlier and known that I can get where I want to go without without driving myself into the ground. That is not a prerequisite for being successful in post production. So I would tell people, and it doesn’t matter, at what point in your career you are, you can make this adjustment just prioritize yourself as much as you prioritize your work.

Zack Arnold: And clearly that’s not a point that I’m going to need to emphasize too much, because that is what I talk about all the time, but I just want to go even one step further, and of course, emphasize everything you said is spot on perfect. But you don’t have to separate the two. You don’t have to think, well, I need to prioritize myself. And that’s separate from prioritizing my career, because I can tell you from a decade of experience, and from now, dealing with hundreds and 1000s of other people that are doing the same thing. As soon as you prioritize yourself and your health, one of the first things that is affected in a positive way is your career. The more energy you have, the better you feel, and the more confidence you have, the more hireable you are, the better your quality of work, the more productive you are, and the more that people want to work with you. So they’re not two separate things anymore. You prioritize yourself and your health. That is going to be the fast track to improving your career. And it sounds like that’s one of the things that you’ve really noticed. And I don’t know if it has anything to do with coming to LA or not. Maybe it’s just the point in your life. Maybe it’s just your age, but it sounds like you’ve kind of really internalized that and realized, oh, wow, like this can actually make a huge difference prioritizing this.

Kylee Peña: Yeah, definitely. I think it was just being here and then thinking, being introspective about where I’ve been, and because I turned 30 this year also, so I’m super old now, and thinking about what I thought life would be like, because I was a super crazy planner when I was 18, and I laid out, like a 10 year plan on all this stuff. And I was like, I have to be at this point by this age. And and I kind of just threw all that away and just kind of let what will happen will happen. And yeah, when you when you take care of yourself, everything will follow.

Monica Daniel: I agree with everything you said, Kylie, about, like the competitiveness and the cutthroat culture, and that’s actually very detrimental for your mental health, like I, you know, I don’t participate in that because, you know, I’ve, I’ve seen, I’ve been around those environments, but I’ve just kind of taken a step back and not participated. But you know, when when people are feeding on they’re just like feeding each other’s negativity, that’s bringing you down as well. And you don’t necessarily want to keep working with people like that. You want the people who you know they like having the power. Positive environments, and you know, you want to work with those kind of people that’ll, you know, help you grow as a person, and just everyone’s happier in general and treats each other with respect. And in order to get noticed by those kind of people, you have to just not participate in the negativity. Because even if there’s just one other person in that environment, and they notice, oh, you’re not like that. I prefer that. That could lead to great opportunities. I mean, I’ve, I think I’ve been able to excel so much. And I feel like once I kind of, kind of step back from my because I’m very competitive by nature as well. But then I kind of, you know, grew up a little bit. I matured once I got out of my 20s, and I felt like my career, just like, escalated even more, and in a good way. And I’ve been able to work so continuously, pretty much, my whole career. And it’s because people notice that, you know, I was always willing to be a part of the team. I did good work. I was always willing to, you know, help other people, and I was always willing to learn, and people notice that, and I constantly get recommended for work, so that really does help your career, to try to stay in that positive space and just not participate in the negativity that can happen.

Kylee Peña: Yeah, I’m in a good place right now, in that I’m on a good team, and I try really hard to make everyone kind of monitor the morale and introduce the idea, because we have a lot of people working at night, because we process dailies, and we don’t see a lot of those people like face to face a lot. We just talk over email, and I try to push communicating, like, how are you feeling to them, not just work stuff. And I think stuff like that is really important. I’m I’ve moved into kind of like technology and stuff and out of the purely creative right now, and there’s definitely a tendency there to kind of forget that we’re human beings, because we’re just surrounded by and so deeply involved in computer stuff. So just remembering that you are not a robot is so important, and reminding everyone around you to like, just stop and and tell me about your day is just so, so important to keeping a good team together.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I love that, and it’s making me think that maybe I need to bring back my my old I am not my workstation t shirt, because it’s true. I’m not going to do that because nobody bought it last time, so I don’t know why they were this time. But anyway, yes, I could not agree with that more in the fact that, yes, we need to separate ourselves from the technology. We are not extensions of our workstation. We are human beings, and I want to be conscious of your time and make sure that we all get the proper sleep that we deserve. But before we go Kylie, I want to make sure that people know where they can find the blue collar post collective, because when we’re talking about community and reaching out to people, this community that you’ve helped build in LA that came originally from New York, and from Katie Hinson and Janice Vogel, and this whole group like this, is the community that I feel that people need to start to become a part of. It’s a tremendous group of people, tremendous vibe. So if people want to learn more about the bcpc, how can they do that? And how can they get involved, whether or not they want to reach out for mental health issues or whatnot, but just to be part of the community? How can

Kylee Peña: They do that? Yeah, we have a website, blue collar post collective.com, where you can get to everything, but we’re on Facebook. Blue Collar post Collective, we have a very active Facebook group. We have in person groups in New York City and LA that meet up at least once a month. But if you’re not in those locations, the Facebook group is super active and has people from all over the world. And we do a lot of live streaming and and live tech talks and things like that, where you can participate. And we’re also on Twitter and very active on there. And, yeah, it’s a really great community. We really prioritize supporting emerging talent and then connecting them with people in the industry that are established. So it’s really a win win for everyone.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, that’s where I would just suggest anybody, especially if you’re in LA or New York. I know how isolating it can feel to come from somewhere else and be so focused on your career, but you realize you really have no life outside of work, and you have no friends in a social situation outside of the people that you spend all day with, and you just feel isolated. This is the way to get out there and meet people and find these like minded professionals dealing with what you deal with. I didn’t figure that out for years. It took me, like, 10 years to figure that out, and I wish that I had sooner. So I encourage anybody listening to reach out. It

Monica Daniel: Actually took me a long time, as well, a very long time to finally start getting out there.

Zack Arnold: That’s part of the makeup of what we do for a living. We chose. This profession, because, most likely, we’re introverted, we’re anti social, and we want to sit in a dark room all day doing our thing. That’s why we chose this. So it’s just, it fuels that fire, just this, this mental health issue that we’re talking about over and over. It’s just all these things fuel that fire for going towards having mental health issues, and this community is the way that you’re going to get out of it. And on top of reaching out to the bcpc, the one other thing that I’ll put out there is that anybody listening to this, if you’re going through mental health issues and you need somebody to reach out, to reach out to me directly. You don’t have to get on an email list. You don’t have to go through a whole process. Just send me an email. Just go contact at fitness and post.com reach out directly. I’ve been dealing with this for a decade, and I have plenty of professionals that I can connect you with wherever it is that you are to get you started. So that’s what this is here for. We’re here as a resource and a community to help people in this industry deal with these mental health issues. So that being the case, I want to thank both of you. This has been a just tremendous conversation. I’m so glad we were able to make this happen, and I cannot thank you both enough for being a part of this movement and this community ever since we started putting this together, like two and a half years ago now. So this has just been fantastic, and I thank you so much for your time.

Kylee Peña: Thanks for continuing to highlight the mental health aspect, and congratulations on 100 episodes, so many podcasts in our industry, and all industries probably tend to not make it past like number 15. So 100 is really an accomplishment. Yeah,

Zack Arnold: I don’t know how I got here. It’s kind of it’s kind of crazy, I fancy. Despite my mental health issues, somehow I found a way to muddle my way through and blather on for 100 episodes. But the only reason I keep doing it is because I know that it’s making a difference, and it’s helping people live better lives in this industry. I just, I cannot tell you how many times I said I am quit. Man, it’s just too much. It’s a huge responsibility, the amount of time it takes the scheduling like but then I’ll get an email from somebody. I’m like, I gotta keep going like this. This is way bigger than me, and there are a lot of people in this industry dealing with these problems, and that’s why we’re on the show, is to help reach out in the the 21st Century. Ways that we have to reach out to people. This is the best way that I know how to do it, and I could not do it without having people like you involved. So it’s, it means a lot that you guys are here with me tonight talking about this.

Monica Daniel: And the word is really spreading. I come at every job, people are like, hey, well, have you heard about this thing? It’s like, something about fitness and something. I was like, fitness and post, they’re like, Yeah, that. Have you heard of it? I was like, oh, yeah, I’ve heard of that.

Kylee Peña: Yeah, that’s funny. I was talking to the assistant on another show I supervised today, and he was like, Hey, I’m friends with Natalie. I hope I see you on a hike sometime. And I’m like, What the It’s a Travis.

Zack Arnold: Travis Harrison,

Kylee Peña: Yeah,

Zack Arnold: Yeah. He worked on black box with us. Sure, I know

Kylee Peña: Travis well. He says, Hi,

Zack Arnold: Oh, cool. Well, yes, it’s, it’s, it’s just, it’s a disease. It just keeps spreading throughout the industry. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s really taken on a life of its own. So I’m it’s, it’s both terrifying and gratifying at the same time. But yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s funny, because I believe, I think, Monica, your beta member, are there two or three. I mean, you’re probably those. I think you’re beta member number two, because Kanan is number one. Canaan was the first one that I went to before he helped you come up with a name. He did. He helped me come up with a name. And I’m like, listen, I had this crazy idea, and he helped me come up with a name. And then as soon as the brainstorm was there, I’m like, I’m going to talk to Monica about this, and I want to see what she thinks. Right? I’ll never right. I’ll never forget that day. We had that lunch. And I would guess that. I don’t know exactly Kylie where you were, but you were definitely in the first 10. So you were one of the first 10 beta members. And, you know, it’s so it’s, it’s amazing, the number of people that are involved now all over the world, like in the 1000s. So you know, the the fact that I have my 100th episode, and it’s beta numbers two, and I think maybe nine, it’s, it’s, it’s pretty awesome. So

Monica Daniel: Well, you know when once, when I posted my a picture of me wearing the fitness and post hoodie, people are like, Where’d you get that? I’m like, Zack, yes,

Zack Arnold: They’re very, very limited edition, basically because I’m broke, so it’s the only way that. Well, I

Monica Daniel: Think that was the first out, the first beta group.

Zack Arnold: Yes, it was. I gave them away to the first two bit it was to the beta group and to my first challenge group. Nobody paid for the T shirts, and nobody paid to be part of the group. So basically, I just spent 600 bucks and got a box of T shirts and started handing them to everybody. And so there’s that first run, and now there’s a second run that I did, and the only way to get them is by submitting questions to the Q and A podcast I’ve yet to figure out. A way to really monetize them. But maybe, if enough people email and say they want one, maybe I can run like, another Teespring campaign or something. But I’ve yet to find a way to make them financially viable where it makes any sense. But, you know, with with demand, maybe, maybe I can get some more out there in the world. So that, having been said, I think we’ll, we’ll call it a night, and I’m gonna let you guys, go ahead and grab some some sleep and some well being.

Monica Daniel: All right, cool.