Episode Highlights

• How Seth’s own experience with burnout triggered his interest in the mindfulness and cognitive behavioral techniques he helps others with today
• Why therapy might be beneficial to you (even if you don’t think you need it)
• What exactly is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT)?
• Why the traditional views of treating anxiety, depression and chronic pain might be false
• The specific key indicators to look out for that suggest you need therapy (or outside help in general)
• The single book passage that changed everything about the way Seth treats suffering
• How mindfulness has become just another McMindfulness and Tootsie Roll (and what that means exactly…)
• What Seth says “real mindfulness” actually is, and why his description is so liberating
• A breakdown of the mindfulness techniques Seth uses personally and with his patients

Useful Links

• 10 Ways to Manage Stress and Anxiety Everyday – Seth Gillihan, PhD
• Cognitive Behavioral Therapy
• Think Act Be podcast
• Seth Gillihan’s books
• Bloom Self-Therapy App
• FEAR: How to Protect Your Mental Health From the Infection Far Worse Than COVID-19

About Guest

Seth Gillihan is a licensed psychologist who specializes in cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). He was a full-time faculty member at the University of Pennsylvania from 2008 to 2012, and taught in the Psychology Department at Haverford College from 2012-2015. He has been in private practice since 2012.

Seth completed a doctorate in psychology at the University of Pennsylvania. He is the author of multiple books on mindfulness and CBT, Therapy Advisor with the self-therapy app Bloom, a medical reviewer for Everyday Health, and host of the Think Act Be podcast.

Facebook, Click to visit our guest’s website

Transcript

Zack Arnold: I'm here today with Seth Gillihan, who is a licensed psychologist. He's a podcast host of the show, Think Act Be, which by the way, is a framework that you and I are going to explore a lot more in depth in our conversation today. And you're the author of Mindful Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, a simple path to healing hope, and piece. And also, I should note that Seth is also a very patient human being, because I had to bump him from an earlier recording slot, and he was very kind to allow me to do so. And finally get us on the microphone today. So Seth, very excited about having this conversation and happy to have you here.

Seth Gillihan: Well, thanks, Zack. He is happy to reschedule and, and I am sure this will have been worth waiting for.

Zack Arnold: Well, I appreciate that. Now, I know I have to earn that I want to make sure that you feel that it was worth our rescheduling. And we'll we'll see if I can do that. Yeah, I just like to set expectations. Good. That makes two of us. And I think that's going to factor into some of the conversations we have today about how both of us like to to set those high expectations and how that can be both a good, but also sometimes a bad thing. The way that I want to frame this in general, and we may go in a lot of different directions. But I want to meet a lot of people where they probably are today, which is, wait a second therapy, mental health, ooh, I don't know this, I'm not supposed to be talking about this, this kind of makes me sound weak. And I don't have it all together. And I need to be the one that just shows up. And I'm the rock every day. So I want to talk a little bit more about some of the stigmas around mental health and therapy, I know that you'd like to dive right into the specifics. But before doing so just a little bit of general background for those that are interested differences between cognitive behavioral therapy versus maybe psychoanalysis versus other types just so we can really zoom in as quickly as possible about not only the work you do with cognitive behavioral therapy, but your discovery of how important it is to introduce the mindfulness component. And then from there just talking about how can we, you know, better improve our mental health and ultimately get some sense of peace, because I feel, especially in my world, or the entertainment industry piece is the farthest thing from what we're working towards, we are working towards success, or awards, or image or external validation of who you are, is so far from what piece is. And I think the the older that you get, the more piece becomes important. And I found that if there's one question that I asked myself over and over and over now, am I at peace with how I'm spending my time. So that's that's kind of a framework for where it is that I want to go. And I guess to get started, I just want to learn a little bit more about your origin story, because you've discovered this not through research and analysis, but really through your own personal journey.

Seth Gillihan: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Zack. i It's interesting, what you said about having an aversion to therapy or not wanting to face our own sort of limitations or mental health struggles. And I guess, I mean, that's, I didn't realize that's where I was, for a long time. I wouldn't have I wouldn't have endorsed that. I wouldn't have said, Oh, yeah, I'm denying my, my full humanity, with all of its, with all of its limitations. So, through my, I guess, I mean, 20s 30s, up until about 40, it was, it was go push. And I wasn't working, you know, 70 hours a week or anything, but but there was a constant sense of what's next need to do more, need to be more productive. And it's funny, I think there was anything there is for a lot of us there was an underlying drive. Well, that's a fun drive for peace. I was gonna say it's fine to imagine a drive I'm very ambitious to attain peace. I think that might be part of it. There's this idea of like, okay, I am going to rest I just have to do enough need to get there like climb the top of that, you know, I get to the top of the mountain no rest at the top. Or, you know, there's this kind of joke people say a restaurant a dead. So I was kind of, you know, burning, burning the candle at both ends. And then around 40, things started to not go so well with my health. I realized I was burned out mentally. But this was maybe I guess about eight years ago now. I realized it really taken a toll on my body too. So, which actually is how I came to an interest in integrative medicine myself was through the physical side of things. But you know, it was a lot of common, sort of nonspecific symptoms like or sleep. Just a crushing fatigue. I'd always had lots of energy before early morning runs doing triathlons and a lot of difficulty vocally, because I've been a lot of trouble speaking kept losing my voice had a growth on my vocal cords that was removed that it came back. So all this is going on. And I realized that I just reached the end of my own resources I reached into myself is how it felt to me and really reached a hopeless place, I fell into a deep depression, I had really cut down on my, my practice my clinical practice hours, which led to a lot of financial strain for our family. So I was I realized I needed the type of therapy that I was offering to other people, I needed to use some of the cognitive and behavioral techniques, the CBT, that that we'll probably talk about. But, but I realized that I lost now, it wasn't just that I was having symptoms, but I felt like something deeper than that. And here's the thing is the common experience, especially with this sort of midlife point that I was, I kind of lost contact with myself, and lost that relationship to myself or realize that I never really had that kind of intimate self knowledge. That's so important. And so that's what really led me to focus more on mindfulness part and being really being present and open and aware of our experience, and accepting of what's happening even if we don't like it. And then finding that if if I approached cognitive techniques to working with my mind, and behavioral techniques, shifting my actions, if I integrated openness, and focus on the present those mindful elements into the cognitive and behavioral approaches, it was just I just found it much more helpful. I think my clients were also benefiting from more of that integrated approach. So. So really, it was through through a years long struggle that I came to some of the some of the developments that, that for me really put these these different strands together in a therapeutic way.

Zack Arnold: I would imagine that for somebody that is a psychologist for a living, I mean, your voice is the tool by which you do your work. I can't imagine the fear you must have experienced knowing you don't have a voice

Seth Gillihan: Terrifying. Yeah, I remember. Christina, New Year's Eve 2016, we had a New Year's Eve open house that our house and a good place for an open house in your house. And one of my I wasn't talking, I couldn't speak I was writing, just you know, to communicate with people just write on a piece of paper. They would often respond by writing, which is always funny. Just an automatic response, like no, no, you can talk. I just can't. We're not sharing a secret. I'm just having trouble speaking. So anyway, but I've done the same thing. But the point is one of my, one of my friends, rob a similar thing. He's like, you know, how are you doing with your practice? And I was like, Oh, my God, it's like, it's terrifying. It was Yeah, absolutely. Terrifying. I was like, I was thinking like, what are all the jobs I can do? I don't require speaking. That was where my fantasy fantasy to find something that requires no, no talking at all perfect.

Zack Arnold: Well, here's what's interesting about that. And I wanted to go into this a little bit later. But it's kind of this acceptance of whatever the malady is, whether it's in your case, you don't have a voice, or, well, I'm depressed, or I'm anxious, or whatever it is, instead of thinking, How do I get my voice? So what's better? Your thought process was? Well, this is now who I am. So how do I structure my life around this ailment. And that's a big part of this process is like, I know that for me earlier in my career. And that's not to say that I don't still struggle with it. But I really struggled with depression, and burnout. And I didn't understand it at the time, and got to the point where you're basically you're the frog in boiling water that where you raised the temperature slowly, and I didn't realize how hot the water was, and you just think this is just who I am. Now. I'm just irritable, and I'm tired all the time. And I never want to go out and do anything. But it's not there's something wrong. It's Oh, this is who I am as a person. So I find it interesting that you thought How do I find jobs where I don't have to speak?

Seth Gillihan: Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great point. I mean, it was I really have two minds about it. Now. He on the one hand, I found it so one of the most important parts of my healing has really been accepting my you don't have to live within certain limitations. You know, I need a nap most days. Those are the energy issues continue. There's still not exactly clear what the heck's going on. And, and I need to, you know, I can't just I don't know, like, Oh, I'm gonna go to, I'm gonna go into the city for the day and just, you know, see what happens. Because, you know, it would just be a major crash and then we'd be stuck. I'd be like, oh, man, but yeah, you're right. On the other hand, how do we How do we accommodate certain limitations without allowing them to completely define who we are on the deepest, deepest level, I think of things like, men, if, if it were an obvious physical issue, like, like, if I weren't able to walk, then obviously, I wouldn't insist on going places where I have to take the stairs. But on the other hand, I wouldn't only see myself, I would not want to only see myself as someone who doesn't want, if that's not the sum total of my identity. So. So that's really been a that's just kind of an ongoing evolution of, of where where's that line between acceptance, but also continuing to strive for, for, for a fix.

Zack Arnold: And I think that that's where mindfulness can potentially come in. And you're certainly the expert on this, and not me. But I know that something that I've become more mindful of, and in a second, I want to kind of get more just to talk a little bit more of the basics of understanding cognitive behavioral therapy, what mindfulness is, etc. But one thing that I've noticed, based on what you're talking about is the level of mindfulness that I have about the language of how I speak about myself an example being I am somebody that suffers from this thing, right? So Oh, I am so add, that's language versus I am currently distracted. It's identity versus situation, right? And in this case, it was it's less a matter of, well, I am somebody who's depressed, versus I'm experiencing feelings of depression. That to me was a level of mindfulness I didn't have before of how powerful the language was and how I was labeling and talking about myself, and I'm guessing that's something that you notice a lot in your practice.

Seth Gillihan: Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it is. It's a, it's a fairly subtle point. But But such an important one. That idea of when I've even had experiences of remember, I was so I forget the issue, but so bummed out about something one time and it kind of feeling sorry, for myself, I was exhausted. So I was I was lying in bed. It was just sort of like, fell into bed, in the early evening, just like, so sad. And, at first just completely identified with that experience. And then there was a part of me that could kind of hold all that experience and awareness and, and relate to myself and say, you're having a tough time, aren't you? I was like, Yeah, I'm having as much time. But just that ability to sort of be the observer, or to have a kind of relationship between I and me, was so I was still in pain, but it wasn't as, as all encompassing, are all defining. It's like, Yeah, I'm having a difficult time right now. And, and that's all right. That's not, that's not gonna last forever. And there's a part of me that can kind of offer myself compassion. Which mean, to be honest, that if I had heard myself saying these things a few years ago, it probably would have totally creeped me out. having compassion for myself.

Zack Arnold: It's not what ambitious people do. They just push through, right? They just, they put their nose to the grindstone, just get things done.

Seth Gillihan: Yeah. What are you soft? Yeah, yeah, we are. We all have. We all have soft underbellies.

Zack Arnold: So what I want to go into now, and it's funny, because I just had this conversation, where I was a guest on somebody else's podcast. And they had asked me a really interesting question that I had to think about a little before I answered, which is, if you don't have their that awareness, how do you develop that awareness. And mindfulness is a part of it. And one of the things that I had suggested is that there's there's a certain level of awareness you can cultivate within yourself, but we as humans are not wired to introspectively just be able to go inside and see ourselves objectively and understand our patterns of behaviors and thoughts, etc. We really need that reflection from an outside party. And I think that, to me, is where, at least for me, I can speak from my own experience, therapy has been absolutely transformational. It wasn't a matter of I just kind of needed to get it out of my system and talked about all these things that were bothering me. It really helped me develop such a keener sense and awareness of who I am, how I'm wired, what are my tendencies, and once you flip the awareness switch on, there is no going back. That's mostly for better it's a little for worse, because sometimes being aware of things is not so fun, right? When you have issues that need work to be worked on. But I want to talk more about where therapy can be tremendously beneficial in general, and then I just I don't want to spend too much time on this. But for those that don't have a lot of background very briefly, unpacking what is cognitive behavioral therapy, specifically in the realm of talk therapy versus psychoanalysis just kind of giving people a primer to be like, Okay, I get the basics,

Seth Gillihan: Right. Yeah, yeah, great. Yeah, you're right. So it can be so valuable to have a different perspective, especially for someone who's, who's very, maybe self assured in certain ways, and we're used to being right, or thinking we have the answers. And so it's possible to bring that same mentality into therapy and, and basically, tell the therapist, like what's true, this is, this is what I know about myself. So we need someone who is is able to see and willing to, to point out our blind spots, because we all have blind spots. So So in, in psychodynamic therapy, which most people are probably most people probably think of when they think of therapy, it's, it's based, fairly loosely, most of the time on Sigmund Freud's ideas of, you know, the unconscious, and the effects of, of childhood difficulties and traumas. And the need to work through these unconscious conflicts, because they're showing up in, in our everyday life in ways we don't necessarily understand. So in that context, the, the therapist or the analyst is, I mean, to a large extent seen as the expert. And the client relies on the expert therapists interpretations of like, oh, this is what's happening on that, why it's inside and shifts things and, and, and that approach can be extremely helpful. For people, a lot of people find it extremely beneficial, transformational life changing. At the same time, it it can also take a long time to you need to work through a lot of these sort of underlying dynamics to try to understand them. So if I came in, you know, said, You know, I'm getting into these arguments with my wife, and you know, it's really affecting our relationship and you know, things are on the rocks, I talked to dynamic therapist about that, most likely, they're going to want to talk about my, my childhood, maybe especially my relationship with my mother. If there are certain incidents from my childhood, that bring up certain patterns that are then getting replayed in my, in my marriage. And again, all that can be very valuable and insightful. And, on the other hand, cognitive behavioral therapy would approach it with a more, more of a kind of problem solving and skills focused approach. It's less about unearthing these hidden dynamics. I mean, it is about that in a way, but they're, but they're not unconscious. They're, or at least they're not inaccessible to consciousness. They're not these are deeply buried childhood traumas. But maybe more like, you know, what, what is your mind tell you when your wife says, you know, when she asks you to do something you forgot to do? Oh, well, I say, uh, she's, you know, she thinks she's better than me. All right. So that's a, you know, a belief. And then in the cognitive part of CBT, we would take a look at that, like, alright, so. So your, your thought is my wife thinks she's better than me. How does that make you feel? Well, pissed off. down on myself, of defensive. All right. Makes sense. Given that you believe that that reaction makes total sense, then let's look at the evidence like, well, so how do you know that she's looking down on you? Well, and maybe there's there's not any clear evidence for it. And then we go through, you know, are there other other possible interpretations? And so it's like, well, maybe, maybe she's asking you to do it just because she can't do it herself. And she wants it to get done. All right. And that will lead to a different set of feelings, and probably less defensiveness, less conflict. So in certain situations like that, the you a person can find relief, a lot of blood a lot of the time really quickly, with these more kind of more, sort of in moments, interventions and skills that we can use right away. And they're very straightforward, like logical, and the things that all of us can can do is sort of intuitive. So, and then with the behavioral approach, we would just maybe practice let's let's try out some new skills. Let's try a you know, a different way of responding or What if you took care of the that thing before your wife? Had to ask you a third time to do it? And how that how might that affect your relationship? How can make it easier to do those things before it leads to conflict. So that's just an example. But the CBT, in general, tends to be more present focused, doesn't ignore the past, it might actually get into some of those childhood dynamics, like, you know, where did this assumption come from, that if if a woman is asking you to do something, then she must be upset with you. Maybe it does bring up some, you know, early mom interactions, we will deal with a more on the level of, of how we how those beliefs were entrained rather than these kind of unconscious conflicts, often with the kind of, of sexual heir to some extent. And, again, CBT isn't always brief. But but it tends to be relatively short. And a person can can benefit pretty quickly, often in like eight to 10 sessions,

Zack Arnold: The impression that I've gotten from it not being a licensed professional, but just to kind of put a put a stamp on what you said is that there's a little bit more of a proactive sense of action steps, and a little bit more coaching mixed with therapy, where and I've done multiple different forms of therapy, I've done the psychoanalysis where it's just a deep dive for months into, like you said, relationship with your mother or father, a lot of you know, what are the beliefs that were coded within you very early in life? How does that better help you understand or become aware of the way you react to certain things, or the way that you view your ambition or your fear of failure or feel or fear of success, etc, etc. And I remember at one point, telling the therapist, this is great and all, but I want homework, I want action steps, what can I do? He's like, That's not what we do here. Because it was a very different form of therapy. And for me, again, going back to this, this joke of being super ambitious and driven, I always want to say, here's the problem, what is it that I can do to take action on it. And that's where CBT is a little bit different from some of our other traditional forms, where they're, like you said, more present focus, more coaching for focus, more sense of, here's something I can work on between sessions. But the next part of it that I want to dig into it, and I know that you feel the same way that I do, because you're right about it. It's also very much entrenched in the Western medical system of it's my job to diagnose a symptom and give you a treatment, rather than spend the time understanding the root causes much Oh, sure. I know that's an area you got a little bit stuck to.

Seth Gillihan: That's right. Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think a lot of the a lot of the problem is that, well, a couple things. One is with the medical model, as I described in the book, like there's, things are only ever as good as your baseline. So it's like, it's the metaphors for like a car coming off an assembly line. And when the car comes off, it's, it's the best it's ever going to be. And then if there's a problem, you take it in and fix it. But for the most part, I mean, unless you're someone who's really into cars and getting them souped up, and whatever, it's not a growth setup. It's, it's let's, let's keep this thing going as well as we can. But unless something's broke, broken, then there's no, it's nothing really to do with your car, you're not trying to, you don't really have a growth mindset with your car most of the time. So, so it's limiting in in that way. And that's there's no inherent idea of growth. But also, I think, that symptom focus can ignore, as you just suggested, the the underlying cause. And in a way, I mean, I've seen, I think, in in a broad way, I think our society may be relying on mindfulness in this way, a lot of the time, which is I'm not going to make substantial changes to my life, even though maybe living an insane lifestyle. I just need the hacks that are gonna allow me to perpetuate that insane lifestyle. We don't use those words, obviously. But But, but the idea is I just I just need to keep doing what I'm doing. What can you give me if I can keep doing what I'm doing? So I think of things like you know, living a life of alienation and self focus and disconnection and then winding up, depressed or anxious or, or, you know, abusing substances, and then looking for medical treatment for that as if that's the solution. Like, yeah, what you need is just, oh, you need an antidepressant. When if you look at your life, it's like you're living in a desert. Just a place that's devoid of all the, the natural things that keep us feeling well and doing well and not being depressed. But it's like we want to, we want to stay in the desert, and just, well, let's just, I'll just drink more water. I'm just gonna live in this desert and drink more water. Like, yeah, maybe you'll maybe that'll get you through for a while, but I'm talking, I'm speaking to other people. But I'm really kind of really going through my own experience, which was I just need to keep doing what I'm doing. And finally, I had to step back and be like, I can't do this, well, why did I assume I could just keep living this way and make it okay with these outside fixes.

Zack Arnold: And one of those outside fixes, as you mentioned, that's very highly overly prevalent in the Western medical training would be medication. And I know that for you kind of the realization, and I just want to make it super clear to everybody listening, do not characterize this, as Zack said, You shouldn't take medication, if you're depressed or anxious, or add or whatever. I've talked extensively about my experience with medications, I've taken them. And I absolutely endorse them in a certain context. But it can't be the only solution. And it can't be the long term for life solution, which, as I'm sure you could speak to, for some people is, but I think for a larger percentage, it doesn't have to be a long term lifelong solution. But because it's quote unquote, easier, rather than the deeper introspection and the mindfulness, it just kind of becomes the new normal.

Seth Gillihan: Yeah, I think one of the real disservice, is that a medicalized view of our psychology has done with mostly with good intentions, or at least with partly with good intentions. And there's this idea of Look, these are, these are real, medical conditions, people are making this up, you can see them in the brain. To some extent, there are differences in the brain chemistry of people who have a certain diet, psychiatric diagnoses, which is maybe true, but there's not great evidence for that actually, either. But you know, this, it was helpful to some extent, but then the over, over biological causation of, of these conditions led to this faulty assumption, that if you have a psychological diagnosis, then the real treatment is going to be something biological, it's going to be medication. In some cases, they even do things like, like, well, electro electro convulsive therapy, of course, AECT, or even Deep Brain Stimulation where they implant electrodes deep in the brain and attach it to a to a, something outside that delivers electric current. So there's nothing there's nothing wrong with any of those treatments. And as you said, they can be very effective and helpful. But, but this assumption that's, that that's the only real cure leads to well, again leads to it leads us away from addressing what might be underlying and in some cases, probably, in most cases, I'm not saying everyone who is depressed, you know, it's just because their life isn't arranged in a certain way. But if you just look at the numbers, the number of people who are depressed in our society, it's really staggering. And if you if you overlay, the, the wide availability of medications like selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors SSRIs, like fluoxetine, there's, it's not like it's helping, it's like it's fixing the problem. It's not making it better. I don't know what the numbers would be without those medications, but it's hard to imagine they'd be higher. So in any case, there's this study showing that if you implant electrodes in someone's brain and deliver an electric current, deep in the brain, deep brain stimulation, this is somewhat of Helen work. If you if you deliver that current to people who are severely depressed, who haven't responded to other treatments, they haven't been helped by multiple rounds of different medications and electroconvulsive therapy. For almost everyone, when when they turn on the machine, the electric current starts. The person has the sense of wow, like, like the clouds sort of part, and they feel better. And then a good number of people fall back into depression. Others stay well. And from the research that I've seen, it seems that the ones who stay well are the ones who make significant changes in their lives in a way that support their more positive mood. Which I just find that so striking that even some thing is deeply no pun intended biological as deep brain stimulation. It's, it's ongoing success relies on the mental and behavioral changes that we make in our lives. So the problem hasn't been understanding that the relationship between the psychological and the biological, or the mental and the physical. But it's been assuming that the arrow runs in one direction. That is only that the biology affects the psychology. But I mean, there's lots of research showing, we need to be aware that the our psychology, in exactly the same way has powerful effects on our biology.

Zack Arnold: And I think in a lot of ways, without turning it into a whole part two of the podcast, there's a lot of research that showing that the psychology in many ways can be a lot more powerful than the biology, just the power of the mind, and intention, and focus and mindfulness and all these different areas. That if I had to choose between the two, even though it takes more work, and might take more time, I'm going to choose to go the psychological route and the mental route, and really making sure that the beliefs that I have in the thoughts that I have are what are driving my progression, as opposed to knowing it's just the pill, so to speak. But one of the things that I found in my own personal experience, and those of others, and again, I'm coming from this from totally non licensed, non trained. But I find that if you get to the point that you can't drive the thoughts and like knowing that exercise, for example, is going to make you feel good enough to you know, generate more positive thoughts. I've always likened it as mentally with depression or anxiety, you're in a hole. And you get to a point where without a ladder, you can't even get your head above ground to crawl out. And I've always seen the medication as the ladder, I just, I need to get my head back to daylight and I need to crawl out of the hole. Now I can start taking actions. And I want to talk a little bit more about this is an article that you'd written for Psychology Today about how do you know when it is time for therapy? And you know, we can we can if we wanted to couple it with medication, we certainly could. But just for those that are thinking, I don't know for sure if this is something that I just need to be mindful and meditate more versus I really need to seek a professional. What are some key indicators that it might be time to at least explore getting outside help?

Seth Gillihan: Yeah, I mean, the first thing I would say is, is whenever you think it's time, it can be time. You know, I just want to

Zack Arnold: I would actually say when you think it's time, it's probably too late. Yeah, like this came up on my conversation about burnout. But they said, you know, when do you know, you're burned out? And I said, as soon as you're asking, am I burned out? It's already too late. Yeah, so I don't know, if you feel similarly of without way about we know, maybe it's time to to see somebody maybe not quite as pronounced but

Seth Gillihan: Well, in our society. Most of the time, when I when I would see someone in therapy, it's it was when things have gotten really, really bad. Sometimes people came a little more proactively but but the vast majority of the time it was it was like things think the sort of the the sentiment seemed to be things got so bad, I had to get therapy. Like, like I reached, I get really hit bottom, which unfortunately, we see things that way sometimes, but But I I just want people to know that there's it's sort of like the flip side of the question, in a way. Like, so some people are who are considering quitting alcohol will ask, Am I an alcoholic? As if? If the answer is no, then they have to keep drinking? Or like, Is my drinking bad enough that I can stop? Like, well, no, it's up to you. Like it doesn't have to get bad enough. Just like if you feel like it's a net negative in your life, you can start whenever you want. So I'm speaking as someone who decided that for myself a while back. So on the on the therapy side, you know, the person is thinking, Yeah, I'm thinking about therapy, but I don't really know if I need it. I'm not sure it's bad enough, then yes, I think that's a great time to pursue it. But in terms of signs of persons looking for sort of markers, I think a big one is when things are getting better just start things, you know, things are gonna slip. Yes, yeah. When things are getting better then come in for therapy. Not don't come in,

Zack Arnold: By the way isn't a bad idea. But yeah, I know, it was not your intention.

Seth Gillihan: So when things aren't getting better, when things are that that's for the four hours of sleep talking there. When things are you know, despite your best intentions, you're trying to trying to sort of write the ship, but it seems like you're just you're just taking on more water. That's a good time to seek therapy. And also, you're speaking of outside perspective. is when someone you love and trust in your life, you know, and suggests it, then I think it's a good thing to consider not for them. Usually not helpful to do therapy for someone else. But but you know, considering that maybe they have your best interests at heart, and they see things that you don't and, and again, it might be worth worth considering. And there are other reasons, but I think those are two big ones.

Zack Arnold: Alright, so given that we've talked a little bit about the basics, kind of understanding just on a tertiary level, what is therapy? What is CBT versus psychoanalysis, for example, and some of the challenges that might come with the traditional model, I really now want to dig into the whole reason that you're here. It's not just, you know, can you lecture us and explain to us the basics of CBT. It's your personal discovery and how you've integrated mindfulness into this practice, because it's infused a whole new level of having this ingredient that's getting you such amazing results, both personally but with your clients. So let's start talking about what we mean by mindfulness in this context. And then I want to dig into how you're actually using it.

Seth Gillihan: Yeah mind mindfulness is, is defined in different ways. But I think of it as one of one of my favorite ways of thinking about it is just coming home, coming home to our experience, coming home to ourselves, coming home to this moment, in a way that we can, we can be who we are, and, and we can open to things as they are including ourselves opening to ourselves as we are, which is different from our, our typical kind of default, stance wishes to come in our minds tend to be elsewhere, we tend to be kind of pushing away, things that are happening, you know, saying I don't like this, or I want things to be this way, I'm craving certain experiences or rejecting other ones. There's nothing bad about doing those doing those things, you know, we shouldn't feel there's no reason to feel bad about those, those tendencies, but, but they often lead to unhappiness, because we're constantly living in a state of, of how can I improve things? How can I make this moment better? How can I get rid of this pain. And again, there's nothing wrong with those very understandable tendencies. But you know, like, when I was, when I was really struggling at the, in the depths of my, my sickness, I was resisting it so much feeling like this shouldn't be happening, I shouldn't be feeling this way. I have to make it stop. And then reading, I read some of this passage from this, this contemporary stoic philosopher, Bill Variola. Talking about how we all suffer, it's part of being human, that you'll have more suffering in your life. And just that realization, like, Oh, this isn't outside of life. This isn't something this aberration life is imposing on me. This is just part of being alive. There's such, there's such rest in that realization. So that's what, for me, a lot of what mindfulness is about is about finding true rest. A rest that doesn't. That doesn't depend on fixing our circumstances to match our expectations.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, that word fixing is a big one. That was exactly where I was gonna go. Next is the way that we are conditioned in society. Going back to this, this idea of being so ambitious and driven and goal oriented and moving forwards. The assumption is, I'm gonna go to therapy because something's broken. And I need you to help me fix it. And that's, like we said, with with the medication, or even with some of the standard talk therapy treatments, here's the problem. Let's fix it so we can meet the expectation that we're not meeting. And mindfulness is a very different approach where it isn't necessarily about I have to fix this problem, but I just have to be more aware of it and bring it kindness and compassion.

Seth Gillihan: Yeah, yeah. And it is such a different approach. I feel like it's made all the difference in in these past few years. It's not that I don't still struggle. At times you don't fight against things as they are, but but even just knowing that there's this other possibility, yeah. Oh, yeah. I don't have to. I don't have to constantly be battling against my experience. That's it never stops being a relief. Every time I re re remember that.

Zack Arnold: So how do we actually use that? Because mindfulness for a lot of people Will can either grate on their nerves or it's like, oh, yeah, oh, that's those platitudes that I see on Instagram quote cards, or it's all this new agey, you know, airy fairy stuff. And yeah, mindfulness can be one of the most powerful forces in the universe. But I think that we need to give a little bit more context of how it can actually be such a powerful tool outside of what I think some people might just assume what it is based on kind of the colloquial understanding.

Seth Gillihan: Yeah, Zack, this is one thing I can get kind of worked up about because there's such richness in being in our lives, as they are an opening to our experience. And the fact that we label that mindfulness I think, can be I mean, it's a label. So as labels, it's helpful to some extent. Yeah, we can talk about like, oh, yeah, we're talking about the same thing, more or less. But labels are also limiting. And it it narrows down our idea of what we're talking to something that has become very commodified. So now it's, you know, it often seems to me, it's like mindfulness TM, or somebody will call him like mindfulness.

Zack Arnold: Never heard that before. But I love that McMindfulness. Yeah, it is sort of like

Seth Gillihan: This fast food version, you know, I'm gonna get my drive through mindfulness argument, you know, I've got my shot of my shot of mindfulness now I'm good for for you know, the rest of the rest of the day. I think it can be a good thing on the one hand to make these make these ideas more widely available. But I don't think it's a benign, benign issue to, to offer something that you call one thing, when in fact, it's a extremely watered down version of that thing. So for example, if someone told you like, Have you ever had chocolate? Oh, no, I've never had chocolate. What is it? Like? Oh, it's great. Even if they gave you I don't know. It's like, like the worst, kind of like Tootsie Roll, because the rolls are fine for Tootsie Rolls. But like, if that's your like, that's what you think chocolate is like, compared to like, a really nice truffle, or dark chocolate or like, whatever, you know, there's so many good kinds of chocolate now. Might be like, yeah, chocolates, okay. You know, I don't really see what all the fuss is about. So I think that's what, for me, that's what that's what mindfulness is, is it's like the Tootsie Roll version of dark chocolate. Like why? If you think that mindfulness just boils down to, to a, you know, a three minute breathing exercise, it helps you calm down. I mean, that's, there's nothing wrong with that. That's obviously be very good thing. But, but it's a problem, when we assume that it's been that that distillation captures the entire experience of what's possible. Because as I found in a lot of people have found mindfulness can really be life changing in a deeply profound way. And I get that it's irritating, I find myself irritated by a lot of mindfulness to this is the other part of it. That irks me, it's all the bullshit that often comes along with mindfulness. You know, it's the the trappings that this idea of, of like, and this is, this is probably not the highest version of myself speaking. But it's, it's one that has to have a certain voice, and it has to all be very, like, nice and gentle. And I've got my mindfulness voice on and you know, I can have my mindfulness voice, as much as anyone else. So I'm not just pointing the finger here, but But again, it has this, as you said, this sort of airy fairy idea, or kind of sensibility that doesn't feel like it's connected to our real lives. Kind of your life isn't like that. And I know my life isn't like that. I know, it's, there's a lot more grit to it. It's a lot more raw than that. And so this idea of like, oh, yeah, he had a shitty day. All right. So just do your three minute breathing exercise. And, you know, just be in the moment just be in a moment. And people I mean, call bullshit on that, because they can they can see it. Again, I'm not I'm not suggesting that says that those things. I mean, probably if you're having an awful day, and you spend three minutes breathing outs, that can actually be a great thing, and can change things profoundly. But so I'm not completely clear message that I'm saying, here's that but let me

Zack Arnold: just be the first to say that I've never talked to anybody about mindfulness, where they have wrapped it up with both McDonald's and Tootsie Rolls. That's it and I laugh and I make a joke of it. But I also have to be perfectly honest and say this has really given me another perspective and lens to see this through, which I think is very, very valuable. And it lends to, I think, a really important question. And let's assume that people at least know what mindfulness is. Let's say that we've learned about mindful eating or mindful exercise. And it's about being more present in the moment, which again, these are all good things. We're not saying they're bad things. Well, let's assume that's the extent of our knowledge of mindfulness, which in a way is the Tootsie Roll, or let's go one layer better. It's a Snickers bar of mindfulness, right? It's, it's okay. And it's not like to me tootsie rolls or just I hate Tootsie Rolls. For me, that was a bad example, because I hate them. But you know, Snickers bar, it's fine. I like the taste. But it's not I would never consider a decadent, but it helps me understand. Okay, so this is chocolate. This isn't bad. But I still don't understand what chocolate can truly be in my life. Explain to me, what is the decadent truffle version of mindfulness? In your opinion?

Seth Gillihan: Yeah, yeah, that's a nice way to set it up. Let me walk through an example. So if you imagine, imagine you had a really rough day and you're feeling stressed out frazzled, or scattered, your mind is all your body's all tense and revved up. And you could, you might decide I need I need to do a, like a calming meditation now. So you just you do some practice and mindfulness and you relax and you feel a bit calmer. Now, you know can happen relatively quickly, it can be very powerful. And yet, we're left we can be left with the impression that my well being depends on getting rid of those uncomfortable experiences. So I have to, I can't be okay, if I'm stressed out and revved up and tense, I have to make those experiences go away. And mindfulness is going to help me to make those experiences go away. But I think the more all encompassing approach of mindfulness that a lot of people find is that I don't have to change my experience in order to be okay. That I can open to things exactly as they are. I can, with practice I can. Or even just in a moment, I can make room for what's already here. Instead of thinking I have to change what's here, before I can be okay. I think that's where the that's where the cognitive side of CBT. And the mindfulness and acceptance really meet is in recognizing that we can bring certain beliefs and assumptions to our mindfulness practice, including this idea of like, I need to focus my attention in the present. And that's the only way I can be mindful. If I'm not focused on the present, then I'm, I'm screwing up my mindfulness. And I need to make my experiences change. I need to make myself accept how I'm feeling right now. As opposed to an approach where we were able to make room for all of our experience, even saying like, yeah, right now, I don't feel like practicing mindfulness, right now the idea of like, being mindfully present, like I just find it irritating. Like, alright, that is fine. There's room for that, too. There's room for you exactly as you are. And that I mean, talk about liberating. That is just so that's just so freeing and freeing ourselves from the assumption that I can only be okay, if things work out the way that my mind tells me they need to. That's just that, for me has really been. It's been pretty revolutionary.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, it's going back to something you said a few minutes ago, what I would call a case of the shoulds. I shouldn't be feeling this way. Or I should be at this point, whatever it might be, versus this is where I am now. Right? It is what it is. And I think that this idea, like you said, if make a mindfulness being Alright, I've had a crazy day, we've been running around, I've got all these emails, but I need to make sure to get in that that three minute meditation with my call map. Okay, now I'm mindful, right versus knowing that everything that's going on in your life and what you're feeling doesn't have to be fixed. So this is broken, and it needs to be fixed by three minute app or a therapy session or medication. All of these reasons as opposed to all right. This is where I am right now. And that's something that I've really experienced the profoundness of this. It's both profound and it sucks at the same time. Because when you accept it, then you realize all right, well, this isn't going to maybe change as fast as I would like it to which again, is both profound and frustrating, but then you accept. Alright, so I'm frustrated right now. It's for me, I found that, like you said, it's just it's very liberating. And I'm going through a similar just experience at the moment where people would assume that because of what I do, talking about overcoming burnout and moving your career forwards and mindfulness and all these things, I've got it all figured out. I've checked off those boxes I've moved on. Those are no longer problems in my life that I fixed. I'm in it right now struggling with lack of energy, I don't have a lot of consistency with my workouts. Some of it is stemming from a very specific incident about a month ago where I injured my shoulder. And 80% of the exercises and work that I do training to be a quote unquote ninja in the sport of Ninja is all grabbing and climbing and pull ups and everything else. And I can't even close a car door. So it's removed this portion of a very large part of my identity that also from the physical side was helping with the neuro chemistry of my brain. And the old me would have been all about I've got to figure out how to fix this, I've got a, you know, whether it's the medication, or I need to switch to this exercise or that exercise. And what I found through my own mindfulness practice, which by the way, still needs a lot of help. And you might end up being my my therapist for the last 10 minutes of the session. But for now, what I found even through the mindfulness practice have already done is that I do wake up thinking, Alright, so today, I didn't wake up when I wanted to, I didn't do my morning exercises. That's where I am today. Doesn't mean that's where I'm going to be tomorrow doesn't mean that's where I'm going to be in a week. And the thought process used to be Oh, my God, this is just who I am now. I'm somebody that skips workouts and I don't exercise, and I'm somebody that eats junk food, as opposed to this is just worry, I am also not, well, I guess this is okay. And it's the new me, I still want to find a way to work through it. And maybe I'm trying to fix it. I don't know, maybe I haven't gotten to the point of acceptance, because I don't want to accept the place that I am now. What I do accepted, this is where I am now. Right? So I don't I don't know if that's if I'm getting closer to the truffle version. Or maybe I'm one half a step above a Snickers bar. I'm not sure yet. But I I love this spectrum of mindfulness and chocolate. So yeah,

Seth Gillihan: You know, it's interesting, as you say that, Zack? Well, first of all, I'm sorry about your shoulder. I hope it hope it feels better. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, there's limitations I know can be so can be so painful. I realized I there's something not really in the spirit of mindfulness on my part to set up this kind of hierarchy of like, more and less mindful experiences. So but I also just think it's true is maybe it's maybe it's unavoidable. But But what I, what I don't want is for you, or anyone else, to kind of judge themselves as if, you know, like, I'm being I'm being good at mindfulness, I'm being bad at mindfulness, or my mindfulness isn't as good as someone else's. But but more about just for each of us finding something that is, is closer to what works for us. And, and with acceptance of where you are, I think, again, that's something that that could be folded into. Like, alright, I'm having a hard time accepting where I am right now. That's just where I am. I'm struggling with acceptance. And there's room for that. Right? You're allowed to struggle with acceptance. There's nothing again, that's, that's a that'd be such a limiting. And is that is such a limiting view of mindfulness, a lot of people is this idea of like, what needs to be like this. And if you're not being like that, then you're not measuring up. Now step back, step back, broaden, broaden, it's all you're allowed to have your experience. That's and that is, for me. And for a lot of people. I think the really frustrating thing about mindfulness is when it becomes a kind of dogmatically narrow constraint on the experiences we're allowed to have, like, oh, no, you need to whoa, hold on. That's not very mindful. So all right, but I think you had a question

Zack Arnold: By way that there's something very mindful about you being mindful of your lack of mindfulness. Right? It's just it's just it's this weird cycle of being mindful about the fact that this is not very mindful. But so it's, you know, becomes this this interesting self fulfilling prophecy. But that in and of itself is a really interesting discussion about what mindfulness is, because it's really hard to pin down because like you said, it is the truth that there is kind of this spectrum, but it's not being very mindful of the mindfulness. If I think there's a spectrum, it's, this is a very esoteric, very hard thing, to write a definition of, or to feel, describe, or to explain, which is the essence of it, right? So essentially, I'll just rephrase it. So we can, we can get it away from tell me how to be better at mindfulness, which again, is kind of the antithesis of all of it. But if I wanted to develop more mindfulness to be aware of the situation, or to develop an acceptance, and I'd feel so much friction with where I am now, like, what is it that I can do? I mean, we can literally turn this into a therapy session if you want it to whether it's a series of questions, but just to have somebody better understand what because as we said, CBT there are more tools and a little bit more sense of I want to be able to do something with it. We could unpack my entire history of achievement and you know being in overachiever and where that stems from with my mom versus my dad. We don't need to do any of that, because we can focus more on here's the situation now. And I know that me personally, this is not an exercise for the sake of the podcast. This is something I've been struggling with it has having negative repercussions on me. And mindfulness is a constant struggle for me. Now, what's an example of how I can work through this without feeling like it has to be fixed?

Seth Gillihan: Yeah, yeah, well, I think so. You know, I have this, this think act B approach, which is shorthand for cognitive, behavioral and mindfulness in that order. But the order I prefer to do them in usually starts with be with being so and it can be the process can be triggered by anything but but a common trigger is realizing you're really stuck in a difficult emotion, you're fighting against something you're feeling caught up, or gripped. Grip is a common common sensation gripped by something

Zack Arnold: Stuck is the one that immediately pops out for me. Yeah, if there were one word to explain how I feel it's stuck. So that would be a good place to start for sure.

Seth Gillihan: Yeah, so feeling stuck. So then start with start with to be, and it just used a very simple practice to come back into connection with yourself, and what's happening. So many, probably most common exercise is just to take a breath in. And a breath out just with awareness, just realizing, okay, breathing. So even as simple breath can bring us back to ourselves. You take a few breaths, if you want. And then a question I love is, what is actually happening right now? Seems like a simple question. Like what is actually happening right now? Because we get all these stories about like, oh, I have to do this. And this is going on? And then this is going to happen. But yeah, what's what's actually happening right now. So identify what that is, well, I'm, you know, I, I am not able to do the workout that I usually do, or I'm having pain, just closing the car door, and how am I ever going to, you know, get back to my ninja training. And so I, you know, identifying what's what's happening, okay. I'm having an experience, and I'm having a reaction to it. So that's sort of coming, coming back and identifying what's actually happening. And that's the mindful part. And then, from there, you can ask, like, what questions or what, what thoughts Am I having? So this is the think, part. What am I telling myself? Well, I'm telling myself, it's always going to be this way, or I've become this type of person who doesn't do these intense workouts anymore, I'm never going to be able to get back to my, my group, you're doing this ninja training. I'm assuming it's with a group

Zack Arnold: Tony that's a huge component of this is the lack of community that happens when I can't participate in all the activities that I do, because community is such a huge part of the sport here. So like a challenge that I have is I've had a group for almost five years now we're almost like clockwork, every Saturday afternoon, email goes out, who's coming to the workout Sunday morning. And I've always prided myself on being the person that says I'm there, I'm the most consistent and I show up, if you can count on one person always be there, it's me. And having to respond to that say, Nope, can't make it. That's an attack on my identity. That's hard. It's a really, really hard component of this. Beyond just the fact that I can exercise as much as I want or, like if we're the thoughts that are going through my mind one of them as well. The next time I tried to do pull up to my max reps is gonna go way down, I put so much effort into getting to the point where I was now I have to start all over. Those are, those are a lot of the thoughts that start coming to mind. But what's, what's interesting, is you're coming at it from a slightly different direction that I assumed. And when you said kind of where are you right now, like just being present with what's going on? You were thinking in the practical. And I immediately went to the next level of what's really going on. So the word that popped into my head without thinking about anything is what's really going on right now. The word was healing. Right? But I'm fighting against that so much, because healing is taking time. And I should be doing the following things. I shouldn't be sitting around allowing the healing to occur. But what's really happening right now, in my mind, I would assume my hope is healing.

Seth Gillihan: Yeah, and the healing probably gets in the way of your identity as someone who's able to do everything like before. He does I think identifying I think those that underlying dynamics is great, but that that pause allows you to identify exactly that was having a healing that's that's great as a positive process going going on here. And you recognize As it's, there's, there's, there are two edges to it. Because healing also means resting to some extent. So you've come into the presence, you've identified thoughts, and you start to question those thoughts. Are they completely true? Do they tell the whole story? They leave something out? Is there another way of seeing things? Is there a different interpretation? So that's the thing part. And then the ACT part is like, what's one simple thing you can do right now? That's like, what what is this moment calling for? What action from yours called for right now? I don't know what it would be. But but you might have a sense that like, what is what is one thing that would, that would embody mindful acceptance, because mindfulness isn't just about thinking a certain way or directing our attention, but it's also about what we do. And we can we can act in a way we can behave in a way that that demonstrates acceptance, like doing a workout that works for us, rather than trying to slog our way through something we're not ready for than hurting ourselves. So do you have a sense of what what that one act might be?

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I think that it's it's a process I've already been going through that I'm still somewhat struggling with. And we're like I said that if there was a word, it's I feel stuck. But what I have been doing is going out and hiking, because my legs still work fine. And hiking has been a great way just for me in general to get out and get some fresh air. And I actually find that a lot. A lot of my best creative brainstorms go come while I'm on hikes. So I've just kind of been doubling up on well, if I'm stuck with trying to write an outline for a newsletter, or right now I'm building a workshop, why not couple those together and to get unstuck go out, because I can at least walk I can't do a super high intensity ninja workout, but I can at least walk or go hiking. So that's kind of been one of those actions that I can take. I think the even though this is a little bit meta, another one of the actions is choosing to have this conversation on a recorded podcast, and digging into somebody that really knows what's going on. Because I think that an earlier version of me would not have been willing to bring this up, especially with an audience that sees part of my identity as being the go getter. And being the ninja in achieving all these goals. Like, I wouldn't be bringing this up publicly. Are you crazy, like the fact that I'm struggling? And I'm not exercising right now. And you know, I'm making poor choices and sleeping in. And I think that in and of itself is one of those actions as being willing to have this conversation.

Seth Gillihan: Yeah, yeah. I'm glad that you that you were willing to do that. It was a couple of things I would add, you know, they're probably assumptions to, to examine to about some of the choices you're making are poor, or thrash, the ones that just don't feel good. So sleeping in, for example, maybe exactly it was called for sometimes during this healing process. Maybe if you were, you know, at full capacity, it'd be a poor choice. But but maybe it's it's something that you need. There's, there's a deeper level of questioning that we can apply to, to some of the things you've described, like, you know, what if I put my max pull ups go way down after this? A lot of the time that traditional CBT approach would be to let's, let's question that assumption. Like, like, Who says it's gonna go way down, you know, it'll probably come up pretty quickly, muscle memory, you'll get right back, you know, so quickly. And that can all be true, but again, that that reinforces this assumption that you can only be okay, if your max pull ups are some certain number, which forces a tenuous relationship between you and peace. You can only be at peace if you can reach a certain level. So from a mindfulness approach, we could we could open to that and be like, yeah, yeah, maybe my, my max, whatever is going to be down after this. And that'll be where I am. Not necessarily where I stay. But that's, that's how things might be. And maybe my value as a human being doesn't depend on being able to always perform like a machine.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, that it that you just you found the wound, and you poured the Salton and you twisted the knife. You do you found it, because it's not just about a number. It's about an identity. So it's having spent five years focused on this goal going from award winning DadBod could barely do a few pull ups. And when I was training my students a few months ago, because I have a group where I train people for Spartan Races, and they were finding what's their max pull up I got in front of them did 25 Boom. I had never done anything like that before. That was now my identity. It was public. It was in front of my Students, I am somebody that can do 25 Pull Ups without coming off the bar. So now who am I? If I go on, I teach that same group again at two months, and I can only bust out 10. That's now I mean, I'm legitimately feeling the emotions, of how do I accept who I am if I can only do 10 and not 25? So using your approach, especially with this mindfulness, how do I confront the fact that there's a very real emotion that I'm feeling?

Seth Gillihan: I mean, it starts with with acknowledging that you have a lot of I have a lot of strong feelings about this. And a lot of identity is wrapped up in being this high achiever and having this public persona. And I mean, it's without going too deep here, it feels like there is some, obviously valuable work to do around, you know, what's the meaning of that identity? And what is it, there's obviously nothing wrong with, with taking pleasure in, you know, our, our abilities and our talents. But when they come to So define us that, that the idea of losing them is, is terrifying, then again, it's nothing to feel bad about or to see as a shortcoming. But there's just there's a deeper peace that's available. And I think if people are interested in that deeper peace, then opening to opening to more of life, as it is in questioning, questioning the society wide delusions we have about what our happiness depends on, I think that's just so valuable.

Zack Arnold: And I think that really what this comes to, and this is kind of where I want to wrap it up. I've talked about this with multiple guests, one of them recently, I don't know if you're familiar with Mark champagne, he wrote a book that's called Personal Socrates. That's all about how we ask ourselves better questions. And I've talked about this for years that the better the quality of the crash questions you ask of yourself, or frankly, of others, is what's going to lead to higher quality of life? And what I've already learned here is that the question that's been on my mind is, when the time comes, that I'm ready to train again, what do I need to do to get back to doing 25 Pull Ups? And a new question could be, what do I need to do with being okay with the fact that I can only do 10. So give me an example. It could be in a middle ground where I might end up getting back to 25. But whether it's 10, or six, or 15, whatever that number is, is kind of irrelevant? What are what are habits or behaviors that I can integrate into my regular practice, such that I can get closer to being okay with whatever the number is?

Seth Gillihan: I mean, that the question that comes to mind is, what do I need to do now, in order to be the best I can be in this moment? And that's, that's different from day to day, from month to month, year to year? It's not limiting. In that it's not saying, How do I need to only ever be able to do 10? And that's fine. Like if you're if you're able to do more, in any domain, weights, career, family, whatever, then, you know, imposing restrictions on yourself isn't, that's not helpful. either. You notice them and lift small. But by being willing to embody fully who you are, whether that's bigger than, quote unquote, bigger than you are now or, or smaller than you are now, I think that's that we can find with the right question, which again, I think is about what's actually happening now. And how can I, how can I meet what's happening now, right where it is, and, you know, come back to peace, how can I make How can I make peace with life? How can I make peace with life as it is? You know, that's, it's a bit of a cliche, but but the idea of life on life's terms,

Zack Arnold: And pieces. I think it's a word that younger people probably they know what they it isn't something that they feel or they acknowledged or they're working towards. And I think the kind of the place, I want to wrap it up, which is going to get very big and existential very, very quickly. So might might not be the easiest place to wrap up. But I know that it's, it's a conversation that I've continually had, which is under and this is a this is a question that I've asked a multitude of guests in this realm, where we've talked about how do we define the difference between the words happiness and fulfillment, because they can be two very different things. And now I want to integrate the word peace into that because happiness versus fulfillment versus peace, all potentially mean very, very different things and I feel that there's a certain period of our life, we're really working towards happiness, and then we inevitably don't get it. And then hopefully you reach a point where you want to work toward some sense of fulfillment. But even then you're like, I just I kind of want to be at peace. So I realized it could be a very big, gigantic existential question. But, you know, what are your thoughts on the differentiate between those? Those three ideas?

Seth Gillihan: Yeah, I mean, the the first two I think are, are often capture me happiness can mean different things. But if we, if we imagine that it's sort of like, like a, what they call hedonic sense, you know, like, I'm feeling positive, I feel good. I'm experiencing pleasure, then that's, that's one way to live, try to have the most enjoyment and pleasure in your life. And then that hedonic approach is often contrasted with what's called eudaimonia, or eudaimonic approach, I think, is Aristotle's idea of rather than asking about how can I maximize pleasures, how can I maximize the meaning we might say, fulfillment in life, and so maybe, maybe that includes, you know, doing something for a child or volunteering in a way that diminishes our in the moment, pleasure but increases our sense of, of meaning, purpose, fulfillment. And there are lots of studies showing that focusing on on meaning and purpose is a much more reliable way to actually to live a happy life, you don't usually find true happiness by pursuing it directly. I would, where I see peace fitting in with both of those is, it feels it feels like the ground that both of them can kind of be be contained within wishes, I can experience let's say, if I'm not having a lot of pleasure, or joy, or let's say happiness, I can still be at peace with that I can find peace through I can make peace with that experience. Alright, that's where I am right now. I'm not always on top of the world. And that can be okay. What I'm saying exactly can sound like a sort of trite, just like automatically, yeah, just snap your fingers and be okay with it. It tends to take practice, but it can happen relatively quickly, just for you to throw an insight of like, Oh, why am I assuming that I have to make this experience stop. And the same goes for meaning, or fulfillment, I think we can. Maybe we had certain aspirations, or certain things we imagined would really give our lives, purpose and meaning and fulfillment. And most of us probably find that we don't reach all of those things, and we reach them and they didn't, they don't provide the ultimate satisfaction that we had imagined. And again, I think that's where, where we can find a more enduring peace that isn't dependent on these outside circumstances. But it does come I think, with or does require intention and, and commitment to, to a different way of seeing things of allowing our minds to be transformed into sort of a different pattern than the one that pervades our world.

Zack Arnold: I would say that was a very Deft and well done way to navigate and almost impossible question to answer. And it actually gave me a couple of really interesting insights. And then we can go ahead and we can wrap it up. But this idea of, if we're chasing fulfilment, especially on this hedonic treadmill, we're never going to get there. But if you chase fulfillment, happiness kind of becomes a side effect or a byproduct of it. That's right. And what I have found is that, if I were to classify the amount of happiness that I have on any given day, week or month, it's not off the chart. However, the amount of fulfillment that I now have, and the work that I do, the people that I work with, even the fact that I'm dealing with this injury, and I'm kind of in this place of being a little bit down and lower energy, I'm still very, very at peace. With the work that I'm doing that's leading to this fulfillment, even if right now, I'm not very happy. And the way that you kind of said that like peace is kind of the foundation laid for both of them. I think, like I said, this, it's a really challenging question to navigate, and I didn't even really expect an answer. And I feel like your answer really kind of, kind of nailed it. And it's helped me look at all three of them and understand them in a different light. So I very much appreciate you, you bringing that to the table.

Seth Gillihan: Well, thanks, Zack. It was a good question. And I appreciate your your nice words about it.

Zack Arnold: So the the place that I want to wrap up is an exercise I do with some guests, but not all, but I think this one could be applicable. In this exercise, you're going to do a little bit of time traveling, and I want you to travel back. It might not be to exactly the moment where you're having conversations via notepads. But in that realm of how am I going to continue a practice of being a therapist and doing talk therapy when I have no voice and I am absolutely exhausted, napping all the time can barely get out of bed. No Knowing what you know now, and what you've been through, what would you tell yourself?

Seth Gillihan: Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting because I feel like so many of the things that I ended up finding, so helpful in the end, I knew at the time, but I didn't know them, you know, you, like there's this metaphor of cycling the puck, where he, the idea keeps coming around, you keep looking for an opening, but it doesn't quite doesn't quite hit the goal,

quite register. So I don't know if I would have I don't know if I would have been able to receive this at the time. But I'm sure it wasn't because I didn't believe it when my wife will say things like this, but

I'm trying to think of something that I could have actually, that could have actually been helpful. I think so much of what happens, what ends up helping us is timing, you know, we receive things at certain times that were receptive to them. But something if I could have communicated to myself in some way that I was loved. And not just like, your love, because your your family cares about you, which they they absolutely do. And a very, I mean, foundational way, not just because of anything I've done. But a more sort of foundational sense. And this is just my own personal view. But that, that love is inherent in experience. And that there's love available in every moment, even if I feared all all the losses that I imagined and that I made, which I ended up experiencing. I think in a way I was afraid of losing love through that losing love that came through being able to perform in a certain way or be a certain person realizing I could never actually lose the love that's, that's woven into everything that is I mean, that ultimately became very redeeming and. And I could have realized that even sooner that would have been alright.

Zack Arnold: I was a that's a pretty profound realization. Hopefully, for everybody listening certainly for myself, just going back to this idea of if we're really going to dig deep. Will people still love me if I don't maintain whatever this image is going back to this idea of the pull ups? Well, the only reason that my students would know me or love me or respect me or admire me, is because I'm the guy that can do 25 Pull Ups. So does that mean if I can now only do 10? Now the level of love lessons, if we're going to use that word? Well, I would say the odds of that are probably pretty slim. But that's that's one of the fears that we confront. So I think that that's, that's a really good place to be able to end this conversation and realizing that that's most likely always going to be there. And if the fears of of losing that it's probably like you said there is there isn't a lot of evidence that would support that hypothesis. So I think right, I think that's a that's a very profound way and place to end this. I appreciate very much your time knowing that energy is an ongoing challenge for you. We've muscled through an entire 90 minute conversation, you were on four hours of sleep, did a amazing job led to some really great insights very much appreciate your time. And I want to make sure that I leave people knowing where they can get resources from you if they find that this can be beneficial. So where's the best place to send my listeners and viewers today?

Seth Gillihan: Yeah, thanks. I think go to Sethgillihan.com is my website. All my my resources are there my blog, I've gone on courses, I'm pretty excited about our offer mindful CBT for anxiety, stress, worry and a brand new course on depression. So that's the best place to find me.

Zack Arnold: And as I understand it, you also have a free guide, that is the 10 ways to manage stress and anxiety every day.

Seth Gillihan: That's right, you can get that through my website. And they can also get a weekly newsletter where I try to keep it super helpful for people with like, you know, stuff you can actually use and not just like, there's a bunch of stuff about me.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I, you and I see it the same way. Like my job is somebody that writes a newsletters to make sure that I'm providing value to the right people. I'm meeting them where they are understanding their needs. And even in some reversion of discourse, where I'm sending that information to you and you can reply if you'd like I want to make sure it's valuable and not. Here's all the latest and greatest things that I'm doing. Here's what I'm working on and click on this link and watch this thing. Like I just I can't Stan, that's what we're on the same page about the value and purpose of a newsletter. So right on. Having said all of that, immensely appreciative of your time of your expertise of your energy and bringing what you did have today and knocking it out of the park, so I can't thank you enough for being here.

Seth Gillihan: Thanks for great conversation, Zack.

Episode Credits

This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared by Debby Germino and published by Glen McNiel.

The original music in the opening and closing of the show is courtesy of Joe Trapanese (who is quite possibly one of the most talented composers on the face of the planet).