Episode Highlights

• How Jennifer built a career around introversion despite being an extrovert
• The history of the study of personalities (extroversion & introversion)
• The popular myths about introverts versus what they really are
• How personality types are more of a spectrum rather than binary
• The real data on how many of the population are introverts and what it means to society in general
• The disadvantage of remote work that even introverts find difficult
• The preferred workplace arrangement of introverts and creatives that allow them to thrive
• How the society has developed preference for extroverts
• How introverts can be better communicators
• The important strengths of introverts that will help them thrive without having to become extroverts
• The importance of having an ally or advocate for introverts
• How introverts can be better at “selling”
• The intersection of creativity and introversion
• What creatives can do to advocate for themselves

Useful Links

• Jennifer Kahnweiler’s website
• Myers–Briggs Type Indicator
• The Hidden Advantages of Quiet Bosses
• Annie Hall (1977) – IMDb
• Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking | Susan Cain
• Business Networking With Dr. Ivan Misner 
• To Sell Is Human | Daniel H. Pink
• The Socially Awkward Introvert’s Guide to Networking with Industry “Experts”
• Why Writing Cold Emails Is the Most Important ‘Soft Skill’ You Must Master (Especially If You’re An Introvert)
• How to Find the Right Type of Mentor For You (and When You Should Seek the Best)

About Guest

Jennifer B. Kahnweiler is a bestselling author, podcast host and one of the leading experts on introverts at work. Her pioneering books, The Introverted Leader, Quiet Influence, The Genius of Opposites, and Creating Introvert-Friendly Workplaces have been translated into 18 languages. The Introverted Leader was named one of the top 5 business books by The Shanghai Daily. Jennifer has partnered with leading organizations like NASA, Amazon, Merck, Kimberly Clark, Bosch, and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control. She holds the Certified Speaking Professional designation, awarded to a small percentage of speakers, and serves as a mentor to many professional women. Jennifer loves Yoga, pickleball, and competing with her husband Bill playing Jeopardy.

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Transcript

Zack Arnold: I am here today with Jennifer Kahnweiler and Jennifer you are a best selling author, you're a podcast host. You're also one of the leading experts on introverts, especially introverts at work. And boy, are we going to talk a lot about introversion today. Your multiple books, the introverted leader, quiet influence, the genius of opposites and creating introvert friendly workplaces has been translated into 18 different languages. You've also partnered with leading organizations like NASA, Amazon, Merck, among many others. But here's where things get interesting. You're an extrovert, so first of all, thank you so much for being here. But let's just start with kind of what my obvious question is, is a very curious introvert, why build an entire platform around something that you don't intrinsically identify with?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Well, it's so, you know, that's a that's a common question that I get Zack, and it's the obvious one, the one I would ask of any guests that I would have on. And thank you so much for having me. I should say that to start out with, it's, it's a real I'm so fascinated by your background and where you're, where you're moving into this, you know, it's, I'm an introvert ally. And when I first started out, I did get a lot of puzzle looks, not only just, and I'm happy to answer this question, but also people. The first book I wrote was the introverted leader. And people would say, that's an oxymoron. How could you have a leader? I mean, so we've come a long way. But, you know, it always starts for me. I think my passion, really, and interest in this topic came and I talk a lot about this in my speeches and things, from being married to an introvert, you know, my early 20s and not having any knowledge about this, this type of personality type until I, you know, took the Myers Briggs and did more reading and learned about things as I got into my field and counseling and in leadership development, and I felt very fortunate that I had that awareness. And so I have my husband, Bill is extremely introverted. That was kind of when I met him, that was one of the things that was really attractive to me. Not only that, he just listened to me, listen to me, you know, but offices,

Zack Arnold: we are good listeners.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: But he was also really calm, at least on the outside. I learned later that calmness wasn't always true, you know, inside as well, but, but he was very calm, and he really balanced my what I would say back in my 20s was very frenetic energy. I came from a family that, you know, of creatives that we can talk about, but it was a very high energy New York Jewish background, very talkative, very extroverted. And it was a very it was refreshing to enter this Midwestern world with his family and his very quiet kind of calmness, so that. But then, you know what happened was I, you know, inevitably, what attracts you to somebody too, and you know, can then also drive you, start to drive you crazy when you don't really understand it. Let's just be honest, shall we? Let's be real honest. And we'd go to these parties, you know, in we were living up in Massachusetts at the time, and I remember coming home from one and just being so puzzled, because he was so taught. He was very pretty talkative at the party and social, and people were kind of drawn to him. And because he had social skills, you know, he knew how to engage with people, but with me, then he would just shut down. I thought it was me. I thought it was, what am I doing? What's wrong, you know, and the more I asked him about that, the more he shut down he would become. And this went on a number of times. And, you know, I always laughed. I said my friends were right. I shouldn't have married. And what's going on here is completely frustrating, because without the knowledge, you know, it was just very hard. So it started at home, and then, you know, I became more aware of this, this personality type. I shared it with Bill. We he started to learn more about it, and it really did help us tremendously. And I still hear that from partners, from friends who who get that awareness, and certainly that transferred to the workplace as I started working in organizations with this lens of introversion, extroversion, and certainly other dimensions of personality. I realized that part of the issue a lot of my clients was hat were having was because of the fact that they were introverted, and I also was very upset for them. I went, you know, I had a lot of empathy, because I remember in my career coaching work that I did, people would say I they get their results on their tests that said that they were more introverted, they'd say, I don't want to be that. I tried to change the answer. So they come out that way. There was a lot of shame, you know, and that was also from the kind of lives that they had grown up in where their families didn't understand that, you know, the fact that when they took breaks and went to their room and read or played with their their trains, or whatever they were doing back then that that they needed that recharge time. So there was a lot of kind of a put down because their parents didn't understand their schools were, you know, were schools still were, thankfully, we're seeing a change in that, but they would be marked down because they didn't participate in class, and they brought all of that to these. To their roles as adults, in working in organizations, and that really, where is my focus is. I've always been very fascinated by the workplace and how we bring it out the best in people and also shut them down.

Zack Arnold: So it kind of sounds like you're the perfect intersection of Adam Grant and Susan Cain, like right, right in the epicenter.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Well, I'll tell you something interesting. You're bringing up those names. Adam Grant called me. He reached out to me. He first emailed me and called me many years ago, when I was working after my first book came out and he had he was writing an article, which then became a very important article about how introverts can make the best leaders for extroverts. It was a very, really seminal article, and he told me, he said, You know, there's this woman I've met who is really terrific, and she's writing a book called her name. Her book is quiet, named Susan Cain. So he introduced me to Susan Cain. So when you say those two names, I just have a warm place in my heart for that.

Zack Arnold: As do I, as do I? Very much so. And their work very much drives the work that I do, and what I the impact that I aspire to create. And again, that kind of that intersection of really understanding creative potential, understanding introversion, that's really kind of the areas that I'm the most focused on next. But I want to go back to something that I didn't realize in doing the research is how eerily similar our situations are, but we're on the exact opposite sides. I am Midwestern, very introverted, my wife, even though not New York. Just imagine the LA, very extroverted Jewish family, right? So my experience was that, and to kind of quantify this, there's a kind of a metaphor that I like to use all the time, where just imagine you've got two fish swimming in the water, and they're, you know, kind of crossing, you know, it's their morning, like, Hey, Bill, how are you? How's the water today? And Bill says, What's water? Right? That that's what introversion was to me, because my entire family is nothing but introverts. So there wasn't a matter of, like, feeling the shame or this guilt, or you're different than everybody else, until I started my relationship with my wife, and it was just this giant spotlight of Whoa, like, these are two completely different worlds. Do you remember the movie Annie Hall? Oh yes, that split so there's that split screen where you have the holiday dinner with Woody Allen's family and then with Diane Keaton's family, you know, one is the and they're literally from Chippewa Falls in that movie, which is 45 minutes from where I grew up. So, you know, that very nice, you know, casual, light conversations, you know, and then you just have the chaotic Jewish family. And I'd seen Annie Hall as a child and when I was in college, but it wasn't until I watched it after I was, you know, shortly having been married, I'm like, this Two Minute split screen is my entire life, right? This, this stark contrast of introversion to extroversion. That's when I really started to dig into better understanding who I am as an introvert, right? So I guess the place that I want to start, because I feel like, now you and I could have about four hours of offline conversations already. You pulled a couple of threads. I'm like, oh, we need to talk about this and that, but it's my job to, you know, in general, keep us you're a good interview. Well, thank you. I appreciate that, but yes, but here's where I really want to start. I want to start from the most base level, because I think that at this point in today's culture, people have heard the terms introvert, extrovert, we have some semblance of maybe what they mean, but I think there are a lot of misconceptions about what it actually means to be an introvert versus an extrovert. Oh well, you must be shy and quiet or whatever it might be. So I want to kind of start with a two part question to build a foundation. The first is just understanding where this framework came from and what they mean. And then secondly, what are all the things that we think we know about being an introvert versus an extrovert that are actually not true?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: It's a two part question. Is, right? Like, the way you think, or so, so, where did so? The first part is around, what?

Zack Arnold: Just basically understanding, where did these words in this framework come from? Because they like, they aren't part of, you know, just human, you know, evolution from 1000s of years ago, somebody said, You know what, I see these differences, right?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: And it was Carl Jung who was attributed the whole idea about introversion first bubbled up with his description of personalities, and then it really became popularized with Myers and Briggs, which, which is the test that many people have, or the assessment, it's not really even called a test anymore, and they, what they did was they looked at, they studied biographies of famous people, and looked at the similarities and differences, and tried to come up with a topology that they they based on Jung's theory about introversion. Now, he talked a lot about it as being and they, I think the Myers, Briggs people do too, about where you get your energy from, and that there is, I mean, you, as an introvert, can tell me what you think about that many introverts still do, still relate to that idea about being in their head so they're in. Energy is internal. So when you ask an introvert, what's wrong? There's nothing wrong. They're processing, you know, that's probably the worst two words you could say, which I learned, you know, but, yeah, so, but, but now we've come to expand that definition, you know, greatly. But I think the trend really is now, and people relate to this a lot is about the stimulation that, you know, the and if there's brain stuff going on too, or, like, with dopamine, and how much extroverts crave that dopamine rush. You know, we saw that during COVID A lot, where they were going crazy and then they learned to adjust. But introverts really can be with people. There's a and you talk about a myth, okay, the myths are, you know, they're anti social, they're quiet. Well, yeah, they can be quiet, but not always. You know, your example of Zack, of people might not know, I get a lot of that you're an introvert. I'm interviewing someone in my podcast who I worked with before, Carrie Wheeler, and I remember she's a CEO of a tech company, and her whole team was there really challenging her, you're not an introvert. You're not an because she's she's learned. Introverts learn. They learn to adapt. They have to because we live in an extroverted world. They learn to adapt a lot more than extroverts do. Is what I want to say. Extroverts get really charged up by they do get charged up by people. So to introduce so can introverts, but it's in a different way. You know, you think about, you know, use the analogy of like a part, like a social engagement, an extrovert will tell you they had a good time if they can have a number of conversations with a number of different people. Now we're really, I'm generalizing here, because another thing that we've learned through the years of working in this area and more people studying it, is that it's also a spectrum. So many people now will say, Well, you know, I'm an, they call themselves an ambivert. I kind of have a little challenge with that. And I've talked to Adam Grant about this too, because I think you're either, you tend to kind of gravitate towards one of the one side or the other. But we don't necessarily have most it's like a bell curve. So most people are not extreme introverts or extreme extroverts, but we tend to, you know, and I'd love to know what you think about this, we tend to gravitate towards towards one of the other. So, you know, back to I want to bring in the first question you brought up earlier about, why are you drawn to this work, and why do I stay in this where it's been, like, 15 years, and part of the reason I stay in is because I've gotten a lot of reinforcement from introverts who and I wouldn't stay in it if they didn't say to me, you get me. I think you get me. I don't think I'll ever really truly know, though, what it's like to be an introvert, but one thing I can tell you is I've learned to adopt a lot of the practices that I've seen Bill my husband, and so many of my clients and my friends who are introverted use and you know, COVID helped with that too, being forced to be silent and traveling around the country and speaking, being alone in hotel rooms, you know, working a lot on myself with, you know, internal work with therapy and other things that I've done to really get to know myself. And I think the introverts in my life have taught me that it's not about being a flaming extrovert and constantly, you know, going and doing. I have extroverted friends who are like that. They exhaust me. You know, it's like you never really get to be with yourself that way, you know. So there's a balance. I think each of us can learn from each other, yeah.

Zack Arnold: So the there's like 700 different things that I want to ask you already have so many conversation threads. The one of the thing that I want to point out that kind of to my brain, yeah, right, yeah. This is, this is going to be a really interesting conversation. I think that this is, this is going to be an exceptionally good one. But you brought up COVID. And I've had countless conversations about COVID from many different directions, but by and large, what I find is that regardless of what the subject of the conversation is, COVID was shining a magnifying glass on certain aspects of your relationship with your spouse, your relationship with your work, your relationship with yourself, because the entire world was forced to hit the pause button, right? So going back to this contrast, like this literal scene from Annie Hall, that's a split screen, all of that was amplified by 100 as soon as we were in lockdowns, right? So my wife was out of her mind, being home all the time. And I say this now with any insensitivity to the severity of what happened with COVID 2020. Was the best year ever, ever. Oh, my God. I didn't have to go anywhere. I got all my groceries delivered. I never had to go to meetings. There were no networking events. I was like, This is amazing. And because of COVID, there is a transition, which I think is going to, at least in my sector of the industry, is looking to be somewhat permanent. Everybody works from home now, like, wow, this actually works. But because, by and large, the people that do what I do are almost exclusively introverts. Like, thank God. It's about time, right? But it was because of COVID that I started as. See all of these tendencies come out of myself and my wife and in all of the clients that I was working with that that's really what sparked my curiosity about understanding introverts on a much deeper level, just for my own personal edification and survival, but because so many of the people that I work with are introverted. So even even though I don't have the statistics I would, I would place a high amount of money on the bet that 90 plus percent of the people that are listening to this are introverts. However, my guess would have been that if somebody said across the general population, what do you think the breakdown is? I would have said, 2575 by and large. No question, most people are extroverts. I think introverts are in the minority. And boy, did you shock me when I learned more about this. So let's talk about the actual cross section of introversion versus extroversion.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Well, I'll qualify that with the statistics are still not totally firm, because it's very difficult to assess every single person in the world, but we do know that most experts will say 40 to 60% of the population is introverted, which is pretty

Zack Arnold: that shocked me. Absolutely shocked me. And here in the without having the level of understanding and research and statistics and otherwise, I would venture to guess, it's a fairly safe hypothesis. If anything, that number goes higher because introverts, by and large, don't want to participate in the kind of surveys that will classify them as introverts.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: So that is true, but I have to tell you something interesting that's happened recently, and that's because introversion is more in the zeitgeist now, if you will, it's kind of almost cool, in a way, to say that you are, which I'm actually pleased about. You know, that I'm really pleased about it. But it's so interesting, because I've had some extroverts just completely say to me, you know, say to me, oh, you know, I'm really an introvert. I'm really an and I know that they're not. I mean, I just, yeah, introvert. They want to be introverts now. So it's kind of flipped a little bit. But I want to go back to what you said about about the COVID. We did some research, and it was good, because I had a captive audience, a lot of good, good from that. I had a lot of advantages during COVID to to reach people. And we had almost 200 introverts respond to the survey that I did. And I can provide that to you too. This was, this was back in, I think, the beginning of the we kind of tracked it over time. In the beginning of COVID, people loved it, and it was like 95% of all I just surveyed introverts, or self defined introverts, and it was like 90% 95% said this is the best thing. Those numbers slip down though over time, and I think you will, if you talk to people, they'll say, you know, remote work isn't like totally great all the time. People, you know, the loneliness factor has come in. Connection is needed in some ways. I'm a little concerned about what's happening now, as we record this that we're seeing a you know, some organizations say, you know, you have to have full time back to the office. Yeah, I think it's just a backlash to what's happening, but, but, but introverts have said that they also, you know, they want to connect with people. So there's ways to do that. And I think companies are realizing that's important to structure in, you know, in put into the into the work, work day, and encouraging one on one meetings. There's even apps that friends of mine have developed. There's one called rivet, which matches up people so that they don't know each other. But it's a good networking tool, you know, that that we're using with we're seeing within companies, particularly those that are full time, that have gone full time remote. But I think the hybrid thing is actually pretty good, you know, because you get to see people, even if it's one day a week, you get to kind of face to face stuff, or, you know, people are seeing getting together for coffee. I don't know if you're seeing that in your industry. Whether people are, you know, are having a positive reaction still to the to their remote workplace.

Zack Arnold: So yes, short version is, I have many, many thoughts about everybody being forced back to work, versus hybrid versus, you know, working exclusive, exclusively at home. Having talked to many creatives in my field, largely who are introverts, I too, have kind of seen that transition from oh my god, this is amazing to even I'm kind of over it, and at least a couple of days a week, I want to be able to go in talk to people, especially the the collaborative process of being creative that really has been hurt by working exclusively from home, but I think this extreme pendulum swing too, All right, everybody back to the office and everybody back to work is so myopically stupid, if you're thinking about it long term, it's very predictable, because everything kind of swings in extremes, especially now, certainly not going political in any sense of the word, but we're in a world of swinging between extremes, so I'm not surprised that all of a sudden it's everybody gets you the office Monday or you're fired. But yeah, if we were having a conversation about best working styles, not just for introverts, but I think for most people in general, hybrid is hybrid is probably the one that makes the most sense if you value a. Work, life balance, relationships outside the job. But again, that's that's probably that would be a thread for for another conversation, because I think that easily we could talk about just that for an hour. But

Jennifer Kahnweiler: I think it relates to the introverts, though, I think you're smart to bring this up, because it is. It's been a plus for them to be productive. And Nicholas Bloom has done a lot of work not on introversion, but on remote. And this back to the hybrid. He talks about that being even before COVID, being like the ideal, if you will, or the best solution for productivity. They look at outcomes, at business results. And personally, you know, creatives in my family, as I said, and that's been a really good option for them, the the introverted one. So, yeah, I think, I think introversion does intersect with with the workplace. Because I think, you know, when I looked at, before this all happened where we kind of all shut down. Everything shut down. I was looking at, I went out to Silicon Valley, I looked at a lot of tech companies and others to see how the workplace was impacting introverts in terms of their satisfaction in their feeling a part of things. And there were certain companies that were doing some very progressive kind of things that still are to elect to really allow for introverts to be their best at work,

Zack Arnold: Sure, and that's definitely something that I want to get more into. There's, there's a couple of facets that I think are really going to be central to what we talk about today, one of which is now that we're starting to get a better baseline understanding of what it really means to me an introvert, understanding like you said, finding those, those adaptations, but I think secondarily, and this is something you write about as well, and this is really the part that I'm the most interested in, is that I don't believe that as an introvert, it's just a matter of I have to learn adaptations or skills. I think there are a lot of areas where introverts have a very distinct asymmetric advantage over extroverts. They're just not aware of it. So I'm going to put a pin in that for a little while, and I want to talk more about this idea of adapting, because what I find really interesting is that, especially knowing that statistically, we're within the range of saying it's fairly balanced between introverts and extroverts, right? It might be a little bit more extrovert than introvert, but it's not a 9010 difference, right? So why in the world is this an extrovert designed in driven world? Like there is no question that everything about the way that our society functions and is designed, all of our structures, all of our systems, say this is built for extroverts to thrive.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Yeah. Well, there's been a lot of people that have done more work on this than I have. I kind of jumped into it and sort of like, looked at the world that we were in, you know, but there are people that talk about the cultural shifts, you know, the individualism I think Susan writes about it in her book. Susan Cain about the factors that really led to this, but it's deeply, deeply ingrained we you know, when I talk about the individualist, you know, the salesperson kind of thing, being aggressive, being out there, being valued in that way. Or, you know, society valuing this. But then when you flip that to you look at culture, you look at Asia, right? And the group, collective mindset is a contrast to that, and how introversion there is really the value. You know, if you're an extrovert, you're an outlier there. So it's really interesting when I, when I did work over in Asia, was more the people that were in Western companies that were trying to figure out how to get the most out of their employees, because the introverts would have, you know, their meetings, everybody would there would be, like, a discussion with everyone in the room that was more equality. So all of these things kind of seep into the culture, you know, but, but back to your question, yeah, I think we just shifted in our Western society to be like, you know, the Horatio Alger. What are those? All those, all those people back, you know, Zig Ziglar, and like, you know, number one on top, let's be, you know, there are other factors as well after World War Two, that that emerged. What do you think? What are your thoughts on that? Zack,

Zack Arnold: yeah. So the what I believe is that, by and large, again, it's the idea of the if we're going to look at the the extreme, as I always like to kind of get a sense of what are the extreme viewpoints. And I almost always end up being the center, somewhere in the middle. But by and large, the squeaky wheel is the one that gets the grease right. Extroverts have a tendency to express themselves more often. They're louder than the introverts. So it doesn't mean that they're right, but they're more consistent in expressing their viewpoints and their needs. And by and large, if you're looking at it a microcosm, and you're designing a company, and then it's therefore becoming a culture, and then other companies are adopting that culture, if people are saying this is how it should work, or the extroverts are going to be the ones that are driving the initiatives and the construction of all but whereas the introverts are like, I don't really know if this is going to work, but I don't want to say anything, right? So I think by and large, it's just the sense that extroverts express themselves more often and louder, not necessarily because their ideas are better. That's kind of my own personal hip. Offices?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: No, I think that's a great, a great angle on that for sure, in terms of the workplace and how it's evolved. You know, you're right, and one company will pick it up, then the next will. There was a term I came across in the last when I was doing the last research for the last book on on the workplace, and it was a pharmaceutical company, and they talked about leadership, and leadership was described as loudership, that doesn't say it all.

Zack Arnold: And then that's the perfect encapsulation. What I was trying to say, in a more roundabout way, is that, yes, I've always been told by so many people around me, you are a natural born leader, and I just didn't see it because by and large, and you and I kind of talked about this before anybody that meets me, that knows me, either you know as a podcast or a coach, or anybody that knows me in this space. They meet me in person, they're like, oh my god, I thought you you said you were an introvert. You're not an introvert at all. You're totally an extrovert. And my response is always ask my wife and my in laws, right? So if we're talking about, like you said that bell curve, I am way on the extreme introverted edge, like, to the point where I've even thought to myself, like, do I need to be looking into agoraphobia, levels of extreme introversion, right? But at the same time, when it comes to wanting to express ideas or connect with people, I can connect on a very, very deep level.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: And you have energy. Like, I think you'll when you talk to Scott Kaufman, he also talks about the dimension of energy and how we come across. So your energy is different than, let's say, my husband, Bill, who's got a very low key kind of, like, you know, the light low and it's, you know, you come in and he's like, Okay, I'm cooking dinner now, you know, I'm like, But you come across. I can see why people would say that, but I guess what I would what I would assume, is that you must, you must have your time

Zack Arnold: to tremendous amounts of time. I mean, and I would say this is one of the core points of friction in my relationship, is the need for space. I can't, I can't even express the number of times I've said that. I just need my space right. And it's coming to that mutual understanding of what's the right amount of space versus, like, you know, we're a family, we have to work as a unit, but to kind of come back to this idea of energy. If you were just in my house where I'm not in podcast mode, or I'm not in coach or teaching mode, well, you just describe it. If your husband is me, lights are low, I don't like the whole thing's going on, like, I keep it all very calm and serene. And the number one thing that every single person that has met me, through my wife, through family, friends, her family, they all say the same thing. He's so quiet. He never says anything, right?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: And that's almost a pejorative,

Zack Arnold: yeah, absolutely. It's almost like, you know, is Is he okay? Is there something wrong? Does he not like us? Like, it's almost like there's something that's broken. But by and large, it's just because whatever the conversation might be, I don't feel particularly engaged in it, right? But then there will be this moments when something comes up and, boom, the light switch goes on. They're like, holy shit, where did that guy come from? Right? But it's, it's hard for me to fake that. It's like one of the things that you talk about with introverts. I would rather shove hot pokers through my eyeballs than do small talk in any sense of the word. Small talk at a family dinner, small talk at a networking event, like there's nothing more painful and you want to talk about a drain of energy, it kills me. But if you put me in a room of 500 people, and I have a strategy, and I know who I want to connect with, and I can pull them aside. I can go for hours and hours and hours, but if it's randomly working a room like I just, I just can't

Jennifer Kahnweiler: One of the strengths you wanted to I think you wanted to talk about that earlier. You referenced, I didn't meet your cuts off. But no, no, this is great, but we do that. Extroverts do that without knowing, you know, and we get it happens. So take a breath. So we were talking about PrEP. What are the strengths? The key strengths, you know, we looked at the quiet strengths and and how do introverts influence? How do they, how do they make a difference? And again, I go back to the organization, any workplace, or if you can think about with creatives in the industry of let's say filmmaking, you know, you sort of, like, you have these different people are working in different areas, but you don't necessarily have the position power, but you still have to influence, let's say the producer, you know, and you're the, I think you did film editing, right? So, you know, correct? Yep. So you're trying to, like, influence them on your point of view. So what do introverts do to do that when you're going, let's say laterally. And a lot of times they would pull when I would ask them, okay, tell me these stories. What? What was successful for you? As when you really made a difference, you challenge the status quo, you know, you you really had lasting change. And they would bring up the same skills that they used. And they were a couple of them. One was they took quiet time to really reflect on on what their strategy was, what they wanted, before they just, like the extroverts, would jump in there and start, like, talking about stuff. They really thought about what's my purpose. Then they would prepare, and that's the thing you just that jumped out at me. When you were saying you would like for a networking event, they do the same thing. It's like, what's my purpose here? Oh, let me pick. Figure out. I've heard this many, many times. Figure out, who do I want to connect with? Who would be a good person to learn from? You know, and they have a list of people, or they'll do research on those people so they can have a more meaningful conversation. I understand you've been involved in this community project. Oh, really, you know that about? Yeah, I just, you know, I read up on you. So you have preparation. You also have another strength that you've used a lot, which is, which is writing and getting your ideas down for yourself, but also to make a position, you know, to put your bullet points, so you can share those in a cogent way with people. So those are just a couple of them. Oh, and, of course, engage listening, you know, figuring out what the concerns are of the person you're trying to influence or what really matters to them. And then another one is focused conversations, the kind of thing we're doing now, like going deeper, like under, you know, on really getting to know that person, like you talked about with Justin on on the podcast about respectfully disagree. You can't just do that in one second, you know, you got to ask questions, focus conversations, going deeper, like you're doing on the podcast. So those are, those are some of the strengths that just keep coming up over and over again. And when people leverage though, they get better at them, you know, and that's really what they use to be successful. But the ones who are struggling are trying to do it with trying to become extroverts. Do it that way and like, they just get frustrated, you know, like you were saying about the extroverts speaking first, like you're in a brainstorming meeting, and it's like you can't even get a word in on that. But maybe you could present your ideas one on one to the influencer, like offline, or, you know what I mean, or share something after the meeting with your thoughts, so that people are like, Oh, Scott Zack really got some great ideas here, you know. So again, that's using your strength,

Zack Arnold: Yeah. So the, again, there's many, many things that I could dig into, the first of which that I want to mention. It kind of takes a quarter step backwards, or maybe just lends a little bit more foundation to this, this idea of I'm introverted, therefore something must be fixed. Help me become more extroverted, right? And again, I'm I'm going to continue to tease this. I think there are several areas where introverts have such an asymmetric advantage over extroverts and key areas that you would think otherwise. The two of them, I think that introverts are better sales people than extroverts, and I think they're better at networking and relationship building than extroverts. They just don't know it and they don't know how to harness it. But before kind of getting to that. I think what's really important to recognize there's a huge difference between I'm introverted, please make me extroverted versus I'm introverted. Make me a more confident communicator, right? Like, that's a skill to be that can be developed. You can't just say, do these five things for three days a week, then brush your teeth. Now you're going to be an extrovert, right? I really by and large, and you can tell me, because you know this world more than I do, you're not going to change either one. But all of the skills necessary to thrive as both an extrovert or an introvert are very teachable skills. Versus this is just the way that I am. I'm shy. Networking is just exhausting. I don't know how to sell anything like I don't want to bother people like, all of these are skills that can be developed, but it's I'm getting better and developing more strong skills versus I'm fixing my introversion. And once I was willing to see it that way, like I was just off to the races, and they're very teachable skills that I really, by and large believe make introverts better sales people and better networkers than introverts. And I would, I would die on that hill.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: You would, I would push back a bit on on the better than because I think we can get into that tick for tat sort of thing. I saw that happen a lot when I first got into this work where people are, like, extrovert, introvert, extrovert. Yeah, we're not on different teams. You know, we all have, we have to remember that we have the all those strengths within us. And so I would push back a little bit on that.

Zack Arnold: And I appreciate you doing that, by the way. Thank you.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Yeah, no, because I think that's doesn't it's not productive to do that. But I do. I was thinking about something as you were talking about being I love your approach, because I'm very much behavioral too, and I think that's where Susan Cain and I had some real synergy, because she brought a lot of these ideas out. It was with quiet, if those of you who are haven't read the book, it's a fantastic book, and it's changed lives. And people were like, oh my god, introversion is cool, you know? And it's got a lot of research behind it. But then I would come in, and I have a lot of I'm very much around practice, and, you know, I see, well, I put models together for like, like you're saying, Zack, Do this, do that. I'm very behavioral. So I think about this one senior level leader I was working with, and she was, she had this open door policy in her office, but nobody was coming in. Like, she just wanted to hear from people. No, it's coming in. I said, Have you thought about walking around? And, you know, like walking down the hall in the morning, and just like this, they had a lot of cubicles. I was just like, how's your day going? You know, how's, how's your morning been going? It was very difficult for her. She didn't want to make that, she wanted to get right to work. And it was very hard in the beginning. But we would, we would practice, you know, she would like, actually walk down the hall physically when there weren't people there, to just get more comfortable with it. And that's the only thing she changed was like stopping by a few of the peoples, and then people slowly but surely started to open up to her. And that really taught me, like and showed me that it's not huge steps sometimes that make the difference. You know, you can just start to connect with people, because that's the ultimate thing you want to connect, right?

Zack Arnold: Yes, and so I want to, I want to take this idea of connection deeper, and I want to pair it with something we talked about before, which is understanding energy, right? So I think again, kind of going back to some of these basic myths, is that introverts are quiet, extroverts are loud, introverts are shy, extroverts are confident, right? Like I'm hoping we can dispel most of that, but I do want to go back a little bit deeper into this idea of how being introverted or extroverted relates to energy levels, right? And the for me, one of the best definitions was kind of what charges your batteries versus what drains your batteries. And again, I'm going to keep going back to this huge contrast in my own personal relationship that my wife craves going out and, you know, having dinner with her friends, or going to see her parents or going to Disneyland, right? And for me, it's just, it's like, I'm preparing for an ultra marathon, like, all right, I'm going to Disneyland in a month, like, I gotta get ready to go to and it's only for like, eight hours, but it takes me a week to recover from it. And even if I if I put together my own in person event where I'm the one leading it, and I have people that I know that I'm comfortable with, it's this energy right now that you see, this is the energy I project. And people say there's no way you're introverted. I'm leveled for a week, a week afterwards. So I literally have to plan the way that I work, the way that I teach, the way that I interact, because if I go speak on a panel for two hours, I've lost a week recovering from that. So to me, the way that I interact, as far as my energy with it doesn't even have to be in person. Zoom is the same. I'm recording three of these podcast conversations, and I recorded or did a like a regular one hour session with one of my clients, I feel amazing right now. Reach out to me at about 5pm today and ask me how you'll be a little you'll be I'm gonna be going to be wasted. So for me, it's much less about quiet versus loud, confident versus shy. It's about how we understand how to manage our energy properly. Yes,

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Yes, no, I love those examples. And you you what I like when you talk, I think about the all these examples about with you and your wife talking about that, it's really about, what is my purpose right now, if I want to be with the family and spend time with them, you know, Disneyland is an option. They all, they all love to do it. I don't like it. What I think we learned in our family that kind of just evolved because we had this idea that there are choices, and it took us a while to get to this, like we would go up every year on Thanksgiving to New York and with the kids were little. And then one year, we said, You know what, let's do Thanksgiving here in Atlanta, we got we got pushback. Let me tell you, they adjusted, they lived. And we said, why don't we come visit you after the holidays. You know, choices are very, very important. And so I think in our family, my husband is he's got all he's got the dynamic too, of old girl. We have girls, you know, everywhere. So they're all talking, and we're all and he is close to his daughters. He wants to get to know and they want to get to know him. So he proposed doing a trip with each of them, and they would do trips together, and they still, well, now they're, you know, they've got commitments and families of their own, so it's a little harder, but I think it was such a beautiful solution, because they had time just the two of them. We I didn't need to be there for him to build that relationship. The goal is for them to have a closeness and to catch up with each other, basically. So they would pick a place to go, and they go for a couple days, and that he loves to drive. And he'll talk a lot when he's in the car in a beautiful place. He just loves, like, going out and seeing the wild wilderness in the countryside. And they said, God, Dad's talking so much on these trips, you know. And I'm getting to know him. And this went on for years. So I just use as as one example of how, you know, they honored his introversion, he did, and they still reached the goal of closeness. So it doesn't always have to be in the same way. Like I like that. You're you said, your wife goes out with her friends. It's important for her to get her juices going, you know, she just had to stay home all the time, she'd probably go crazy, like you said,

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and we saw that happen from March through June of 2020. Yeah, of course. And we survived. Okay, good, and we're doing great, but we definitely saw those tendencies amplified because of those circumstances. But what this brings up for me, in addition to just better understanding how to manage. Manage Your energy is that, I think that as an introvert, again, living in an extroverts world, I think it's so important to understand how to create an environment where you can thrive. And that takes you have to be much more proactive about that, because, in general, by default, as an extrovert, you're probably going to thrive in a lot of corporate environments. And it's kind of it's built at least to your advantage. You know, to start right? But an example kind of coming back to collaboration, where you were talking about, you know, some of the things you learned about, you know, creatives, how they collaborate and how they get ahead. One of the things that I thought about that happens even before all of your strategies, is, I'm very particular about the environments that I create and the people that I work with, knowing that I'm going to going to be an environment where my introversion is an asset and not a liability. So here's a couple of examples, one of which would be and I know this is something you write about, I make sure I'm working in an environment where the best idea wins, because if the loudest idea wins, I'm going to fail, because I'm not going to speak up every single time, I'm not going to share all my thoughts. But I know that when it comes down to an argument about ideas, I love working with creatives, where you can have so much respect for each other, but you just get into it like, Yeah, but, but the character needs to do this. I totally disagree. This is his story, and it needs to be done this way instead. But it's not, you know, you're the one that's in charge, you're the showrunner, you're the director, I'm just the little old peon editor. It's more. We're here as equals, and we're going to debate creative ideas, and the best idea wins. So for me, the first thing that I do to put myself in a position where I have the advantage I know I'm in an environment where the best idea wins and I had the space to talk about my ideas. Then the next one is making sure, like you already mentioned, I'm in an environment where I'm given space, and boy, did I learn this one the hard way. So the way that it works in my industry, specifically in my corner of the industry, in post production. And I often say that I didn't choose my profession. My profession chose me because it said, Oh, you would love to sit in a small, dark room for 14 hours a day and be left by yourself. Wouldn't you come join us? Right? So the natural environment suits me. Because I was gonna ask you that if you chose editing, no, I really believe that editing chose me for a lot of reasons, but that's one of them. But then, in one of my first big projects, I was working with a director that was their working style could not be more hands on. Literally sat on my couch behind me for 14 hours a day, for seven days a week, and I was working from home, and it literally almost killed me. It's the worst bout of depression and anxiety that I'd ever experienced, because I was never given space to think so. One of the things I learned is that an environment that sets me up for success. In an interview, I ask, what's your working style? So on the show that I've been on for the last five years, Cobra Kai on Netflix, I'd literally ask that question, and people would say, but you were in an interview, like they're interviewing you. It's about, you know, showing you know you're the best candidate. Like, no, it's not. It's about making sure it works for both of us. And I said, What is your preferred working style? And they said, Well, you know, we got to be honest. We got so many other things going on, like we can't hold your hand, like we're just gonna we're gonna pop in for five minutes. Here's what we need. We're gonna disappear for days. I'm like, we're gonna get along very well, right? So again, it comes back to this preparation and reconnaissance. I make sure I'm going into an environment where it's best suited for my tendencies, because when it's not, it just destroys my mental health. Well, I'm

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Well, I'm glad you brought up the interview, and because that comes up a lot, and I I've done quite a bit of work in that area, and I think one thing that is very helpful, if we talk, think about in the industry or or in an organization, that introverts need allies to speak up for them too, because one of the things that happens is because there, you know, because there is such bias still about introverts, if they don't interview, you know, as the bubbly, outgoing kind of person, but they are really their competencies are a great match for the position. They can lose out to people that interview well, you know. And so I had many examples shared with me when in doing this research, and I've seen it myself, where the person there was that one person who said, You can't pass over this person. You got to give them a chance. They're going to be fantastic. They're they may not just be coming out, as you know, all the bells and whistles. So I think that's where we want to bring in people into our world who can speak up for us. That's why, again, looping it back to networking. Why we need a network? We need to, we still need advocates, you know, and I'm saying to whether they're in the field that in your profession, or actually in the company that you're working in, to speak up for you.

Zack Arnold: Yeah. And then this is a core foundation of the the learning path, specifically about networking, relationship building and all the things that I teach is most people, when it comes to networking, it's, here's how to get somebody's attention, here's your elevator pitch, you know, here's how to send that follow up email and land the job, or the, you know, the contract, or whatever it is. And again, if you combine. Idea of doing a lot of preparation beforehand and being very strategic and very intentional about the relationships that I'm building or what I'm teaching my students to do. So I always say that whatever that dream job, dream client, dream company might be, you don't go directly for the hiring manager and show them your resume or your reel or whatever it is and say, I'm the best pick me. You go through the back door, which is, you connect with somebody, person to person, and they know the direct gatekeeper, and they're like, You have got to hire this person. Like, really? Like, I wasn't even sure I was going to interview them. Trust me, hire them, right? So I always say that, rather than playing the checkers game, play the game of chess and about building a genuine relationship. And that's where I think that a lot of introverts, as I found, really excel, especially in the digital age. Because if you can give me a few hours with LinkedIn, or in our in the the entertainment industry, IMDb Pro or IMDb is kind of the LinkedIn for our industry, give me a few hours with that, give me a spreadsheet and allow me to reach out personally to one person at a time, and build your network that way. First of all, the open and the response rates are just by and large, way more than just kind of doing general cold outreach. But you meet really cool people along the way, but also you develop advocacy so you never actually have to do the hard sell. And that's where I think introverts can really not only just adapt to an extroverted world, but they and again, I'm really glad you pointed out this contrast of better than or not better than. I want to say, they can not only adapt, but excel in a world built for extroverts. And that's one of the areas where I've seen, by and large, introverts, once they learn the skills, they just skyrocket in their ability to build networks, because they know how to have good conversations, to ask really thoughtful questions, and they have empathy

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Absolutely and you're you referenced the digital world too. They can use they can use LinkedIn, or we whatever it is. I am deep Pro, but that is a base to learn about people, but also to stay in touch with them. And I one area that I've seen introverts also excel in with networking is post production, if you will, post event or, you know, after they've been introduced to somebody, then they follow up. That's very key, because a lot of that's how you differentiate yourself. A lot of people don't follow up. But if they introverts, like a lot of them, I'm again generalizing, but like a process. I mean, that's they like steps. So if you say, okay, one important thing you need to do is stay in touch with people, right. Connect with them within a week after you meet them, you know, then do another touch point. You know, two weeks later, three weeks later, just checking in, sending them a article or something where you have an excuse to write to them. So you keep in touch. You know, you keep it. You keep your we used to say the care and feeding of your network.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, it's, it's, it's almost eerie you're saying this, you would literally laugh out loud, because I teach that the magic is in the follow up. And I literally have a three page, I have a three page flow chart that details in exactly the circumstance. In this number of days, if you get a yes, you send this. If you get a no, you send this. Oh, they responded this way, then you do this instead, literally, step by step flow chart. I love that. And again, the response rates are like 80 90% whereas with most cold outreach, it's like 510, 15% my students get 80 to 90% response rates because they've got a system, but it also is tailored to their personalities, which is, I get to be real rather than I get to be a template, right?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: I love it. I love it. And, you know, I've interviewed several people who are experts in networking, like Ivan Meisner, who started the biggest networking organization in the world, and Andy lapata, and they all talk about that follow up as being so critical

Zack Arnold: As well. Yeah, so that. So that's one of the areas that I feel that when it comes to being an introvert, it's not just a matter of, how do I adapt to the world? There's really an opportunity for me to excel in the right space. Now we want to come back to this other one about specifically the idea of selling because I think by and large, just about everybody would disagree with my hypothesis that introverts can, by and large, Excel being sales people, because extroverts are the salesman right, or the sales salesmen, sales women. But I think that where I've noticed both with myself, but also with a lot of people that I've worked with, is that I think being a really, not just a good salesperson that meets your quotas and, you know, can hit all the numbers, but truly being a great salesperson requires both being highly empathetic and two, genuinely believing that whatever your product or service is is going to make a positive difference in the life of the person that's going to buy it. And I think that's where, again, when you learn to harness those skills, is an introvert like you've got an asymmetric advantage, I believe so I don't know what your thoughts are, because you have way more experience in this world than I do. So this is more anecdotal from my perspective.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: No, I think anecdotal has a lot of value, because it's what you observe being sold to, right? I think, you know, I go back to Daniel Pink's book to sell his human and he really talks in there about, you know. At the fuller brush man and the qualities that was an old type of person that went door to door, you know, what were the qualities when you look at a good salesperson? Actually, I think you need both. You need to be able to talk and feel comfortable and get energized by people, but you also need to do that leg work and you need to do the follow up. I want to give a good example of one. You know, I look at how introverts and extroverts work together well. And I had a sale. There was a sales team I was working with, and Marty and the other guy were doing a presentation on this medical device thing, and Marty was up at the front doing his thing. He's a really good keynote speaker, and he's like and his partner, and he said they had the biggest sales of all time. His partner would go around the back of the periphery of the room and have these little quiet check ins, you know, with their targets, their prospects, and find out what the concerns were, and kind of alleviate those concerns. Together, they would then, you know, follow up. The introvert was the one who did more of that, and they were extremely successful. So I kind of look at that, you know, as a partnership, but also within the same person, you can learn to do that, you know, you can learn to do that. You see it at trade shows. You see, yeah, so I think, again, you need, I think you need both, because it is a lot of you talk about energy, if you're going to be an effective salesperson, you know, they talk about still calling people. Excuse me, I'm a professional speaker, and I go to these programs, up until a few months ago, they're like, you know, you still need to get on the phone if you want to do outbound selling, it's not going to come to you. And things have gotten slower in our industry as it has in others. That's the only way, if you got to reach somebody on the phone, well, you know, if you're going to keep doing that, that's fine. I've talked to a lot of introvert sales people who are very successful at that. Again, they have a system. They manage their energy, but it's also it takes a lot of now, we're bound to energy. You know what I mean?

Zack Arnold: Right? I was gonna say that then it really becomes a question of sustainability and stamina. And in that case, I would argue, if it's about long term stamina, doing outbound sales, yeah, and extroverts gonna, you know, they're gonna be able to have a lot more stamina last longer than the introvert, for sure. So again, that's

Jennifer Kahnweiler: no yourself. I think about this, a couple of introverts I know who have gone up, started podcasts, like you Zack, or, you know, started to move into sales to challenge themselves. Is like counterintuitive, like, I want to get out there and talk to as many people as I can, because then I'm going to get over my fear. You know, I really applaud them for that. I think it's terrific,

Zack Arnold: yeah, and it's funny that you bring that up, not so much about the sales perspective, but about the podcasting perspective. This has been an ongoing debate that I've had both with my Podcast Producer and fellow coach, Debbie, as you know, is lurking behind the scenes as we speak, but over the years, talking to several other people specifically about the creative process and the process of journaling, right? Because, like you said, like on the surface, many introverts are quiet, but inside, it is the opposite of quiet, 24 hours a day, like the voices, the ideas, they just never shut up. And I've been told multiple times, right people, oh, the best way to really wrangle that and get a hold on and all the anxiety it creates create some form of a journaling practice. I just could not make it happen. And then one of my former podcast guests, they pointed this out to me. They said, How long have you had a podcast? Like, I don't know. It's been like, eight, nine years now. Like, don't you write a weekly newsletter too? Like, yeah, she's like, so tell me again about how you never journal or externalize your thoughts like that was a really big moment for me when I realized the podcast and the newsletter, and now I have finally developed an actual reflective journaling practice, which has completely changed my association with all these internal ideas and the anxiety that it creates. But as soon as you had mentioned the idea of starting a podcast, I didn't consciously choose the podcast for the specific reason, but it's because it's my introverted way of creating just enough distance and on my own time and in my own space, of building really genuine relationships, where it requires preparation beforehand, requires more insightful, deep conversations. And I realized, Oh, I again, this is me setting up an environment that makes sense for for the way that I approach this. And goes back to you saying, like, do you you're doing 90 minutes? I usually do 30. Like, hey, given that we're now an hour and 15 minutes in, is it making more sense why this is the ideal format for me?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: May have you may have helped me change my whole format of my podcast, and

Zack Arnold: I'm happy to help you with that offline, by the way, if you'd like,

Jennifer Kahnweiler: yeah, no, I love this. I love it. Yeah, yeah.

Zack Arnold: All right, so the so I bring all that to kind of tee up this, this one last idea of which I had many, many more. But I also want to be respectful of your time. And I have a feeling this might be I'm going to to, dare I say, plant the seed for what could be a part two of this conversation. It. If you're willing to dive back into this rabbit hole with me at some time in the future. But there, there's really the intersection of three different things where I find myself the most fascinated. One of them is introversion. One of them is creativity, and the third is neuro divergence. For the sake of this conversation, we'll just, we'll take neuro divergence off a list, unless it's something you want to go into. But I'm really interested in the intersection of introversion and creativity. So again, I don't have the statistics in front of me, and I wouldn't say the correlation equals causation, but I would say there's a high correlation between introversion and creativity. What have you found?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: And you know, as I as you're talking about this, I'm thinking about my family, because, as I mentioned, I have several creators. My daughter, Jesse Conwell is a writer. My dad, Elvin Boris, was a writer. And I, I'm just going to go off a tangent for a second here. I remember when I was learning the Myers Briggs. I gave I gave it to people in my family. I wanted to practice doing it. And my dad came out with scores I've never, ever seen, ever again. He came down in the middle of all of the different schools. But when I look back at am I, and Jesse will say, you know, I'm an introvert, but I think it's what, what it is when I look at creatives, um, a lot of the time, you guys are, you're and I consider myself now one, because I guess now I can I say, I'm a writer. I am a writer. You know, we're in our heads a lot. We're creating, as you say, you know, go doing a walk around the block or swimming laps in the pool. I'm coming up with the next article. I'm always, you know, and I remember my dad like growing up with him. He was very prolific. He wrote over 1000 scripts. He's was from the golden age of television and all of that. And was always producing, always producing, but he was also in his head a lot. He would like space out, like what's going on. He was coming up with his his idea. So that's the image I have of creatives. You know, it's more the writing side, but I don't have any specific statistics. But, you know, just in my anecdotal, anecdotal research, not just from my family, but people I've come across, yeah, I would say that a lot of creatives are introverted. I think, I think it takes you. You have to stop and you have to embrace silence, and you have to be comfortable with being with yourself. And you know, in your expressing yourself, and if you're out there, as I said earlier in our discussion, you know, having outside stimulation is important when you're a creative I don't think you can do it in a vacuum. You know, when I'm stuck, I like to go, go do something very different than I'm used to doing. I'll go see, go to a museum exhibit, or I'll, you know, just kind of get my mind going. I'll take a walk in nature to stimulate myself. That's stimulation. But I think it's really, really important to be able to also hunker down and have the discipline to be with yourself in creativity,

Zack Arnold: Yeah, the and the balance between the creative mind of the discipline mind like that is the eternal struggle of the creative it's one thing to have all these ideas. It's another thing to actually sit down, write them out, have the habit create the outputs, right? So that that's, again, one of those kind of intersections where, again, correlation might not equal causation, but I see a very high level of the people that are in my community constantly struggling with procrastination, consistency in their habits, right? Just getting the ideas out in a in a uniform manner where they make sense, because it's just, it's a cacophony of all these different ideas, like when you had brought up this idea of, you know, just kind of going out into the world. I can't even go to the grocery store without standing in line and thinking to myself, I could write a 303,000 page or 3000 word article about the psychology behind why the gum is on the top, and why the candy is here, and why that like. It just It never stops. It never ends. It's just like this fire hose. So yeah, that idea of of of actually having the discipline to put it out there, that is the eternal struggle,

Jennifer Kahnweiler: But you do, but you are modeling that by having your podcast, by creating your courses. Um, I think there's containers that created creatives deadlines. Deadlines are extremely important

Zack Arnold: Gotta have. There are no deadlines. Nothing ever gets done. And my entire life is nothing but self imposed deadlines. Otherwise it would never get done. I would just stare at the wall all day long, looking for my pants.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Yeah, but look at the and also look at the productive people, you know? I mean, they do have they, they, they hunker down, right? We know. And you, you and I probably know people that are so incredibly talented, like they're brilliantly talented, but they don't do, should I say shit on here?

Zack Arnold: Yeah, please go right ahead. This is an open forum.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Do it? They talk about it. Yeah. I've known several. I've known a number. Who are you still talking about writing that book? Uh huh, yeah, right,

Zack Arnold: Yeah. And that's and I hear those stories all day, every day, because, again, it's. Very, very highly correlated, where somebody that's highly creative, it's really hard to get those ideas out. It's and I myself struggle with that, but it's all about building urgency the systems. Yeah, I think everybody does on a human level. But again, that could be another conversation. That could be a conversation on your podcast. You want to dive deep into the darkest depths of how all of this enmeshed, you know, massive ideas works. I'm happy to have that conversation on your show,

Jennifer Kahnweiler: But I love but I think, do think your, your idea about the convergence of introversion and creativity is definitely worth exploring more. I would say that it's there is a high correlation. Yeah, so it's a gift. It's a gift to be able to have those thoughts in the grocery store. Yeah,

Zack Arnold: I agree with that. As long as you learn how to create boundaries and you learn how to harness them, right? That's the that's the eternal struggle, but

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Yes, as long as you can be present with the people in your life, that's yes,

Zack Arnold: Yeah. And that's the foundation of everything that I teach, is that's the thing that cannot be sacrificed. There are. There's nobody in my community or in my program where they say I'm here because I want to win all the awards and I want to make all the money, and I don't care who I have to step on to get there. They do not gravitate to me. They are not a part of the community, because presence with the most important people in your life is a foundation of everything we do. So yes, that's, again, just a core part of also being an introvert in general, too, right? So a million other things that we could talk about, but I kind of want to end with one last thing that I think thing that I think is, in some ways somewhat of a summary, but also kind of a next step as well. So you also spend a lot of time, in addition to helping introverts understand how to adapt, you also spend the extroverts learn how to better manage teams or get the most out of their introverts. But if I'm somebody that's an introvert, and I want to know, how can I advocate for myself and I can create an environment where I can actually know that I'm in the right workplace, where I can advocate for any kind of changes in the workplace. I know this is something you spend a lot of time talking about, so I'm an introvert. Listening to this conversation, I'm thinking, Oh my god. First of all, I didn't realize all these things about me. Secondly, there's actually a lot that I can work with and skills that I can develop. But third, how do I actually bring this to the people that I work with and collaborate with, and have a conversation about it?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: I think, Well, if that's that's what you just said, is where you start, you start having conversations in your small community that you're in, and I will guarantee that people will connect to the topic. They will talk to you about their brother that they can't figure out because he's always quiet, or their child or their you know. And I think you need to bring the conversation up that's also in the Managing Up idea of really discussing your style, as you mentioned, with your manager, with your leader, this is how I work best. And, you know, by the way, I'm an introvert. Don't be afraid to say that there's some real education that has to happen. What's happening now in a lot of places is these communities of introverts are getting together and, you know, kind of forming these. You might call them, employee resource groups, discussions among themselves and and bringing awareness to the topic, bringing trainings in kind of things we do, sharing books, sharing ideas. You know, it conversations do create change. They change cultures. It just takes time, but not but don't be afraid to bring, to bring this up and to find allies who are like, you know, Jennifer, I'll say is an extrovert. Find allies in your group who can really speak up and say, Hey, wait a second. Like, on a very practical level, a very, you know, visceral level, in a meeting, say, you know, I think there are some people that haven't had a chance to really get their thoughts out there. We need those people. We need them planted around us, right, to speak up for the introverts. That's why we call our podcast the introvert ally. We need more allies to say, hey, wait a second. Think we're ignoring some folks here, you know, you know. And looking at every practice in our workplaces that really do Lean or skew more towards extroversion, and saying, let's look at the other side. How can we bring the introvert voice into this? So there are a lot of things that you can do, and I and it takes some courage, but I think people that do speak up feel gratified in the most of the time that they did?

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I agree with all that. And I almost had to laugh out loud when you said introverted communities and like, I'm pretty sure communities of introverts is an oxymoron, is it? But, but recently T shirts, yeah, exactly. But recently I put together a live networking event, and somebody came up to me and they just encapsulated it perfectly. They're like, You should call this introverts anonymous. I'm like, boom, done. Love it, right? Because the what, I don't want to be anonymous, though, but I know. But you know, the the idea of, you know, having all these introverts who prefer to be alone, but they're together, like, that's, that's a concept that I've just, I've always found fascinating, is that. Introverts, at least from my perspective. I can't speak for all of them. You don't actually want to be alone. You want to be alone with somebody else, and it's a very interesting distinction. But when you can find the right person that you can be alone with together, whether that's one person, whether that's a small group, whether it's a small community, that to me, is where I really started to understand what a peer group was, where we understood our need to be alone, but being alone together, so that's great.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: That's beautiful. And that's why I think a lot of the co working spaces have started popping up communal solitude, where we're sitting in coffee shops, we're being we're with people, but we don't have to talk to them, right? No, no, no. I think it's That's great.

Zack Arnold: Well, having said all that, you've already answered this question for the last 80 to 85 minutes. But I really want to summarize it as quickly and succinctly as we can. If I'm listening to this today and I either already knew I was an introvert or I had the realization, oh, I might actually be an introvert. What are just a couple of things that I should probably start focusing on working on to both get the most out of that introversion, and, you know, just kind of really make it something that I don't feel like I have to apologize for or fix.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: I guess the first thing you can do is learn more about it, so you can bust some of those myths yourself and get over any self deprecating thoughts that you have about what it means to be an introvert. Be a proud introvert. There's a lot out there. You can look at my books, you can look at so many others, tons of stuff on YouTube, you know, online. So learn, learn about what it is and what it isn't. I think that's really the bottom line. Have those number two, have conversations with people about this topic. And, you know, see how, how does it impact them? You know, what are they? What is their view of introversion? How do they feel that their strengths are either on one side or the other? Are they using their introverted strengths? So I think those are the most important things, and a lot of times that question is asked about leaders. What can they do? And I think you have to start with yourself, no matter who you are, to begin that journey. But I really appreciate you bringing this topic out to the to your audience, Zack, because I think we the more we have these conversations and we learn about it, what it is and it is, and I think we're seeing changes. I mean, I've been in this for 15 years, and at least, and, you know, I'm really pleased now to have somebody come up to me last week and at a party, and he said, Guess what? I have an introvert coach. And he gets I was like, Whoa, you. Nobody would have even said that, right? Yeah. Couldn't people get people to talk on the record? So we are I want people to be proud of who they are and to learn some tangible skills like you talked about. That would be the third thing. It's taking small steps if you want to develop your strengths and use them in those situations that are challenging for you, like perhaps meetings and networking. Kind of read it. Read up. We have all kinds of materials on our website. Jennifercommella.com, videos, podcasts, all kinds of resources, just and as an introvert, you're going to enjoy, probably the preparation process.

Zack Arnold: Well, that's great. You literally stole my last question, which is making sure people know where to find you. It's just Jennifer conwiler.com and I'm going to make sure that there's a link in all of the show notes everywhere they find this, so they can find you directly. Because I think this is a tremendous resource to learn more about both introversion and also how to surround yourself with allies. So so beyond grateful that the universe decided to randomly connect us through another podcast guest, and something tells me this is not the last time that you and I are going to chat, but at least for now, I just want to thank you for being on today, and can't wait until we connect again.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Zack, it's been my absolute pleasure. You were a fabulous interviewer. Thank you may thank you for making it fun. Thank.

Episode Credits

This episode was edited by Curtis Fritsch, and the show notes were prepared by Debby Germino and published by Glen McNiel.

The original music in the opening and closing of the show is courtesy of Joe Trapanese (who is quite possibly one of the most talented composers on the face of the planet).