Philippe Danielides is a former Wall Street lawyer and corporate communications consultant turned professional life and career coach. He is the author of The Lawyer’s Guide to Freedom: A Six-Step Plan to Discover What You Actually Want and co-creator of The Garden – a group learning retreat in Greece inspired by the teachings of ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus on the art and practice of living well. Needless to say, Philippe and I have a fascinating conversation spanning a wide range of topics (burnout, sailing, the meaning of life…).
Today Philippe shares with us the story of his own drastic and unexpected career shift, which came as a result of reaching burnout, unfulfillment, and illness despite having “reached the pinnacle of success.” Through his journey towards building a life of fulfillment and health, he has acquired a wealth of knowledge and tools that he generously shares with us. Philippe provides not only practical steps to identify what you really want to do with your life but also inspiration and encouragement to start walking the path towards fulfillment and embrace the support of others along the way.
Whether you are considering your own drastic career shift and need support managing self-doubt and criticism (coming from yourself or those around you), are wondering how to find the right community to help you advance your existing career, or are even looking for guidance in determining what it is you actually want to do with your life, this conversation is a must-listen.
Philippe Danielides is a former Wall Street lawyer and corporate communications consultant turned professional coach, and the author of The Lawyer’s Guide to Freedom: A Six-Step Plan to Discover What You Actually Want.
His coaching is focused on helping lawyers and other habitual high-achievers to live more engaged and energized lives by answering one critically important question, and then providing them with the strategic and practical support to translate that answer into a reality. That question is, “What do I actually want?”
And for reasons explained by what he calls The Red Pen Problem, it is a particularly daunting and challenging question for many lawyers to answer, and why it’s so often set aside (albeit unintentionally) in favor of answering more achievable yet ultimately unsatisfying questions like “What should I want?” or “What do I realistically think I can get?”
Philippe holds a Bachelor of Arts from Middlebury College and received his JD from Georgetown University Law Center. He’s a native New Yorker and somehow, also, a slow walker, which continues to annoy his fast-paced New York friends and family.
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Zack Arnold: I'm here today with Philippe Danielides, who is a former Wall Street lawyer turned life and career coach, you're also the co-creator of what you call The Garden, which is a group learning retreat in Greece, inspired by the teachings of ancient Greek philosopher, Epicurus, which is on the art and practice of living. Well, number one, Philippe, super excited to have you here. But number two, are we on the right show? You're a lawyer, I don't talk to a lot of lawyers on the show with all the artists and creatives and thinkers and problem solvers. And this is going to be an interesting conversation today.
Philippe Danielides: Well you could say that lawyers are artists, we are artists in our own way, our craft of writing. So there we go. We are problem solvers, certainly by nature and thinkers. Maybe a little too much, we might err on the side of making too much. But I would say there's a lot of overlap, or I would imagine there is and also, when an invitation is extended, generous one I love to accept. So I'm here at your very kind and gracious invitation. And looking forward to spending some time speaking together.
Zack Arnold: Well, I'm very excited about what we're going to talk about today. The reason being that, as I alluded to, its it seems odd, at first glance on the surface, that I'd be talking to a lawyer, but what you've already packaged so perfectly, is the purpose of today's conversation, which is recognizing the similarities amongst people that we feel should be so different. Oh, I'm a creative. I'm an artist, I'm a musician, I'm a painter, I'm a thinker, I'm a writer, I'm a lawyer, right? Like, we we just, we feel like these, they're supposed to be so different, but what we're gonna find are the universal challenges that we have as humans, that are just trying to survive, much less thrive in the 21st century. And that's where you and I are gonna go so deep today is understanding how it is that we can really figure out what is it that we want out of our life? How do we overcome all the madness, that coming that's coming at us, the burnout that we experience across various industries. So we're gonna dive into all of that. But here's where I actually want to start. I don't get a chance to talk to a lot of life and career coaches, I talk a lot more to entrepreneurs and artists and people that are more in my field. But what I have found is a pattern. And the more that I've really learned about this industry, and I've tried to become a better coach myself, is that you find most people that make a career transition, doing this kind of work, they all have the origin story, where they hit their unique version of rock bottom, it wasn't a matter of, oh, this would be an interesting thing for me to do next. They have such a horrific story in their own mind of going through something really difficult. They came out of it. And they realize I want to help other people get through the same challenge. I'm curious, do you have your own version of an origin story that led you from lawyer to life and career coach?
Philippe Danielides: Of course, because there's no other reason why would have put myself through the the challenges to make that kind of a transition and to get all of the looks from friends and family, being like, Are you Are you out of your mind? What are you doing? I'm like, I got to do it. Yeah, there are we were to track I was I was listening earlier to an earlier podcast that you did with Chris Vogler around the hero's journey. And so understanding also that I'm speaking to an audience that is what very well versed in story, the structure, the narrative, the arc of story, and we're meeting through that lens. So I was working in corporate law, I was on Wall Street, I had reached the pinnacle. I was on the 54th floor of my office building looking out at Manhattan so as far as I understood and what I was expecting in my life, I had reached the promised land or reached the land where all of the promises that had been made to me about how happy and satisfied I would be where they all were. And I was about three years into that that time on Wall Street when a I decided to have surgery on a thyroid tumor that had been discovered years earlier, actually, on a metro in DC. A woman came up to me and like jump around, but come right back, came up to me on the metro in DC and said I'm sorry, I don't mean to bother you, but I'm a nurse. And I think that you have a thyroid problem. And I went to the bar where my friend and I was heading one ran to the bathroom, looked into the mirror and for the first time realized that I had this very noticeable sizable lump on my neck fast forwarding to in the doctor's office in New York and getting the diagnosis that for the moment it was benign, but it was pretty significant. And the doctors were like you should probably take this out but being the diligent just graduated law school aspiring lawyer that I was I had the bar to study for and then I had to get going working. I didn't have time to take care of this and so I just kicked the can down the road and for three years would go and get checkups every year. or, and they'd say, Hey, you really need to take care of this. And I was like, I just don't have time to do that I have too much work to do, even though it was making it difficult for me to breathe actually at times as well. So it was a real discomfort, I finally had the surgery, as right around the time I was turning 30 Instead of taking two weeks off, which is what they recommended, I took one week off, because we were really busy at work during that week off at home, because the partners knew that I was just sitting around at home anyways, which we may all be familiar with. Now, from the pandemic of well, you're not doing anything else. So you might as well work. I pulled an all nighter, working in my my first week off when I was at home recovering. The second week. So my first week back in the office, I pulled another all nighter on the heels of this very significant surgery that I was still in the early stages of recovering from and I had this moment at around three in the morning while I was just you know, surrounded with papers on the floor going through it of what am I doing? What am I actually doing. And it's in a way I'm in embarrassed. But I realized it's actually really important to speak to this. And I'm I'm proud of myself that I wound up doing something within my life. It was really the first time that I picked my head up from all the busy work that I was doing from the just moving forward and achieving to really ask myself what I was doing in my life and what direction I was heading and why I was making the choices that I was making. And there's more to that story, right cut two, three or four years later of negotiating and say, Well, maybe if I'm not a corporate lawyer, maybe I'll do something else. So I took a series of other jobs that were a little bit more manageable. But still not quite it until finally around 34. I was again on the subway, I've had some very consequential life moments on subways.
Zack Arnold: God, where would your life be if you lived in Los Angeles and you were in your car all by yourself? My goodness.
Philippe Danielides: Trump probably talking to us that we all do. I'm moving to Austin a few years ago from New York City, I moved to a city where there's more driving. And that's been a an interesting change all its own going from being shoulder to shoulder with everyone all the time. But it was really all to say. And speaking to that idea of the like the refusal of of the call right in the hero's journey from that moment. 3am. In my office of this is not right. I proceeded to negotiate and to refuse for an additional three years because I was so afraid of what it would actually mean to step out. Until that morning on the subway heading into work. I just I don't know who it was or where the voice came from. But something finally shifted. And it was a, you know, enough. Let's go.
Zack Arnold: What I want to dig into next. Because it has nothing to do with being a corporate lawyer. It has to do with deciding that you want to change your identity is the obvious reaction, which you alluded to a little bit. But it's are you crazy. Yeah, people just they don't understand it until they've been in it, I went through almost the exact same experience minus the tumor, where I had been working for years and years and years to get the top of the ladder working on top level a list television shows and movies. And finally got to the point where I was on a TV show called Empire which at the time was breaking ratings records was the number one show on the network in the country. And then we're talking about a sweeping all the awards. And I've never been more busy, miserable, realizing I've worked so hard to get here. And here was stuck in a dark room for 16 hours a day and never seeing my kids while they were much younger, and I was missing key moments of their life. I was exhausted all the time, I was miserable. And I was in my car commuting three hours a day. And I think that there are a lot of people that have either had experiences like that recently or are working towards it, where they see the promised land based on the way that other people say you should live their lives, it's going to be you have these credits, or you have this paycheck or you have the corner office or you have the 54th Floor view of Manhattan, whatever it is in somebody's world. And they just assume Well, right now it's a struggle, but I'm going to get there and I'm going to feel like I've made it and those that get there realize how empty it is. And you've had that experience. And I've had that experience. And I think there are a lot of people that follow the show. Definitely the people that I work with in my coaching program. They're at that place too. So the first step to me is when you decide you want to make this identity shift, it's working through all the people that are constantly trying to pull you back like the crabs in the bucket. You're crazy. You should be so grateful and thankful for what you've worked for and achieved why would you ever want to do anything else? How did you face that as you were having your own identity crisis and everybody else was piling on top of the identity crisis.
Philippe Danielides: Yeah, I didn't do it alone. And no lawyer is gonna give 100% guarantee on everything. So you'll hear me caveat. It's a habit of speech, I apologize in advance for it. So I don't I don't know if this is for everyone, but I I have yet to meet someone. And certainly this was the case for me is that I did not do it alone. And I don't think it would have been possible for me to take that first step out on my own. So after the initial the surgery, and that moment, right, she Dark Night of the Soul up in my, in my office, when I first started asking these questions, I started asking them aloud, and I asked them to my parents, I'm like, what, what am I doing? And everyone freaked out? We're like, wait, wait, wait, what actually, what are what are you doing? Like, no, like, you're good. Stay there, you've worked so hard to get to this point. And I wasn't really sure in a way I had these questions. But I didn't have enough of a benefit that I wasn't taking them seriously enough, or maybe that there was still so much fear that I wasn't ready to really commit to those questions and exploring and seeing where they would take me. And so I backed off. And that was three more years until the tension finally got to that point, again, where things broken, I was like, Okay, I know, I need to move forward. And I knew at that moment that I could not do it alone. And so what I did, and this is not a plug for coaching, but this is honestly part of my my own story. I never intended to become a coach, when I decided that I wanted to leave corporate law and make some changes. That wasn't the career jump that I had in mind. My connection to coaching exposure to it was a friend of mine from college, who had made her own transition from marketing executive into coaching, and we had one of these heart to hearts at a friend's wedding. While I was in the midst of all of this, and I remember leaving that weekend going wow, Devin, that was such an amazing conversation I have not been listened to in that way. And had someone asked me questions without jumping in with. And I think that you should do this, or you're doing a great job, put your head down, like pay your dues, all this stuff that people are offering oftentimes in, you know, good, good faith wanting to be helpful. But what they're really doing is sucking the air out of the out of the space. And so our conversation really stayed with me. And so when I got to my office from the train that day, and was in the throes of okay, I've got to leave. She was the first call that I made. And it was a hey, how you doing? Good, like, so here's the deal. I know, I need to make some changes. I've hit that point. I've got to do it. But I'm terrified. And I don't think that I'm going to take that step unless someone not just me. Can you do that? And she said, Yeah, I figured that you would be calling I was just waiting. But yes, I can nudge you. And I said, Perfect. Let's go. And we worked together for five months, meeting weekly. And I would say in that time doubt, one hour that I that I had with her felt like the only space I had in my life at that time where I could put down my defenses or not brace myself for what was going to be the kinds of messages that you were alluding to earlier to try to bring me back into the fold.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I would also guess that it just it allows you to number one more authentically connect with who you instinctually and intuitively believe you can become next. But also what I think is so important about the coaching process. And this is just becoming a blatant advertisement for joining a coaching program between the both of us. But we're both coming from a place of having coaches that helped us and realizing that this is a role that I want to have in somebody else's life. The other thing that I've learned, and it's a lesson I'm still learning to this day, and I don't understand why on the neural level of the way the brain is wired. But we are absolutely horrible at being able to do this for ourselves. We have no ability to step outside of ourselves and objectively think, Oh, this is the next best step. And I should be doing this. And I feel confident in all of it even to this day. As a coach, I find myself being very good at helping other people simplify their next steps. And then I get completely lost in my own mind, and I can't do it myself. So I still surround myself with people to give me that objectivity. And to me, like you said, you really can't do it alone. Because you get so lost in your own mind and your own limiting beliefs and your own fears that you just need somebody that can give you that safe space to process and organize all the craziness between your ears.
Philippe Danielides: Yeah, I think that's part of the genius of our design that we are in a way incomplete on our own that we need one another in order to become the fullest expressions of who we are and to connect with the gifts that we are here to offer and To be guided in learning how to offer those gifts, in a skillful way. So I think if we, we live in a culture and I think a lot of the, I would suspect that a lot of the similarities that your listeners in the creative field and some of my clients are my background in law, I don't only work with lawyers, but primarily now a lot. It's a lot of my experience, dealing with lawyers, that even though we come from different professional fields, that we are all certainly in North America, in the United States, we've all been raised in a culture that is broadcasting certain messages and a certain narrative of what it means to be successful. And what are the qualities and the the skill sets the approaches of a person who is successful in life. And so we've all been conditioned by those. And then one is this idea that self reliance or autonomy, right? rugged individualism is something that we should aspire to. And that's a sign of success in life. And I've found that that's why I haven't found a way to reach that I don't, I don't think it's possible, certainly not possible for me. But I don't think it's necessary. And I think it cuts against the, again, the genius of our incomplete nature, which invites us into relationship and our alliances with one another,
Zack Arnold: I think that's a beautiful way to put it that I'd never considered is what a gift it is that we're incapable of managing this on our own. Because by far, the most rewarding thing that I've ever done is build this coaching program. It's also the most frustrating, hardest thing that I've ever done, it would be so much easier to just go back to editing TV and movies and making good money and having, you know, very consistent schedule, and the income is just going to show up. But I already know what that felt like at the top or the relative top. And it just wasn't fulfilling and rewarding and surrounding myself with people and helping them through this journey. I mean, I just I get up every day. And I'm excited to get on a zoom call and help people through these challenges and answer these questions. But I never seen it through the lens of gratitude, of being thankful that we are wired in such a way that we are not capable of doing this on our own. But what you point out that I want to shine a light on even further is this idea of the western perspective of rugged individualism. And we think I'm supposed to be able to do this on my own. And it's a sign of strength. But then the funny thing is, when you think about all the people that we idolize in our culture, none of them got to that point without an entire team around them, that nobody talks about that somebody like LeBron James, he spends millions of dollars a year to have people on staff to be his entire care team. He's not doing it by himself. He's got a whole team of coaches. Same with anybody else is successful in Hollywood, or even any other industry. That was a really major aha moment for me when I entered this field. And I started realizing that if you look at somebody that we idolize as having made it, you learn that they have an entire team around them that kind of shocked me, but also gave me permission to start accepting more help.
Philippe Danielides: Yeah, I often think about, I imagine myself sitting in a movie theater and watching a movie of whatever story and the threshold that I have is, would this be believable? Is this something that I would sit there and agree with? Like, yeah, I'm on board with this movie with the characters? Or is this too contrived or fake? And I actually ask, ask you, or if someone, if we can come up with one and one of your listeners has an idea, and they want to let you know that I'm happy to be informed or corrected. But I would imagine that if we were sitting in a movie theater, eating popcorn, on a Saturday afternoon, enjoying a movie, and in the movie, the main character has an entire transformation in their life, whatever it is, in whatever context and does it completely on their own, from start to finish without eliciting the help of anyone else getting any outside information or perspective that was essential to completing whatever, you know, arc, or like growth in their character that is, you know, at the at the core of the movie, you know, if we were sitting there, and that happened, even if they tried to make that movie, I'd be like, this is a horrible movie. That doesn't make any sense.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I just don't buy. You're the expert I have, you know, I totally agree that there probably are movies like that. And I can't think of one off the top of my head. But probably because if I saw it, I thought, well, you know, this isn't really well put together. And this wasn't well written and it's not motivated and it's not sucking me in as believable and there's no empathy, because I don't feel that struggle on that need to reach out to somebody else. But it's all about the transformation. The Hero's Journey is the reason that we are sucked into story. And when we watch somebody else's story, we don't like we're not thinking well, you know, Rocky was kind of weak because he needed Mickey as his coach like that's one of The most important relationships in that movie, you look at Luke Skywalker and Yoda, Neo and Morpheus, we don't see them as weak because they had these mentors and these guides in their lives. That's the most important relationship in the movie that leads to transformation. But then when it comes to us, personally, oh, I need to figure it out on my own, because I need to be the rugged individual. And just that that disconnect is staggering to me. But like you said, it's just culturally bred into us and conditioned into us that we need to do it on our own. And my theory is, that's not a flaw in the system. That is the system because then it makes us feel like we can't speak up, we can't band together. And we can't set boundaries around, like working these long hours and all nighters just to put together a document or a brief or, you know, deliver a cut of a television episode, whatever it might be. Because even the people that are literally saving lives, that are in ers that are the nurses that our doing the work that's going to save our lives, even they take breaks so they can recover. But we feel that if we're putting together briefs or whatever the work is, well, we're just machines.
Philippe Danielides: Yeah, if I could ask I'm curious in your profession. So in your experience, and also with the people who you you help, what is the fear to asking for help to raising your hand or maybe poking your head out of like the dark editing room and be like, Man, I'm this is not going well, I need some help to figure this out. Just in a place where I feel like I'm underwater and camp,
Zack Arnold: I would say that the two biggest fears are number one, it makes me look weak. And number two, I don't have time for that when he just like you said were when you were right out of the the operating room having a tumor removed, literally, oh, but I'm too busy. So I'm working from home and pulling an all nighter. You step outside of that. And I'm sure if you had some objective perspective, from an outside observer, they'd be like, This is crazy. What are you doing? Why would you value this one brief you're working on all night versus your health. But when you're in it, you don't sense that. So you just you constantly get in the pattern of there just isn't enough time I will get to this. That's usually the biggest objection. But the other one is, and I'm, I'm hoping that I've at least been a small part of breaking down this barrier, at least in my sector of the industry, is that it was taboo to talk about the fact that I'm depressed, that I'm burned out that I'm exhausted. Because if people ascribe that identity to me, because this is a freelance industry, nobody's ever going to hire me again, because I'm the weak one in the herd and not the strong one. So those are the two biggest fears that I hear over and over.
Philippe Danielides: Yeah, it's a it's a tragedy. Honestly, I've, as I experienced that, we have the privilege of being led him to people's lives, we've sort of one on one in a in a zoom call, or whatever the context is, just sit into be led into a person's life and have them share where they're at and what's going on. And it's a real gift and a privilege to have that. And something that I've noticed is that I will speak to someone who is expressing that and feeling very alone, right? I'm the only one who's going through this, I'm dealing with this. And they don't know this, but what I know because after our call, I'm speaking with someone else, that I could be speaking and was speaking with people who are, let's say in the office, the next office over so the The tragedy is that we many of us are going through these very normal struggles on our on our own, certainly they might be not exaggerated, but like amplified by, you know, pandemic and certain things that are happening, but it's just in the course of human life. We go through, you know, good times, and bad and difficulties. And that's all part of the experience, but to be going through that feeling alone, when the person who literally shares a wall with you is experiencing the same thing, also feeling alone in that experience. And I thought and this is one of the reasons why I wanted to shift and I know you already offer group programs or you're bringing people together why I wanted to complement the one on one work with group work when I would call culture work of bringing people together so that these struggles, these challenges could come out into the open and people could find ways to relate to one another see themselves in one another's experience and also think to be witnessed by other people going what you're going through and to still be welcomed and included is such a powerful experience to have and a gift that we can give one another there's room for you know can be room for advice giving at times like absolutely either sometimes I've reached out to someone and like I don't need that counsel. I just need specific advice on this like please and that's totally fine. So sometimes advice is helpful but What I've found and I would love to hear your experience as a leader and facilitator of these groups of these communities that you've, you've cultivated that offering another person, your attention and your presence. And let's say nothing more. And just that in witnessing their experience and allowing it to be there is a really tremendous and profound and life changing gift that you can give to someone,
Zack Arnold: I don't know if I get say it any better than you already did. But just to kind of extend upon it and give you my perspective of this idea of the community and the group process versus the individual process. when this first started, it was simply a matter of, I know what I don't want to do anymore. And I need to figure out a way to generate income that's not working and editing and Hollywood so that I have a buffer. So I can take a break, but not be freaked out about the lack of income. And it started with I want to build online courses. And I want to teach I love teaching. It's in my blood, my entire family surrounded by teachers I talked to taught at USC, and I'm like, oh, it'd be cool if I could teach stuff online. So of course, you go to the online course, that explains here's how to package your course and build an email audience and charge him this and blahdy blah, right. And I started doing that. And I realized I liked the teaching process. But my students, the ones that were paying me real money, I would reach out and they weren't getting results. And I found out later that's endemic in the entire online course industry, where the completion rate is like 5%, it's so embarrassingly low. And the people that succeed are the ones that master the marketing funnel game. But what they haven't mastered is the getting people real results game. So I thought, well, let me let me look into coaching. And I started working with a few people privately. And what I found very, very quickly, and this is one of the things you mentioned, is that I would have conversations with them and secretly have this impostor syndrome of who the hell am I to think that I can give them all the best advice and solve their problems. But I had more than one person over, you know, multiple months, that they would share something and I would just reflect it back upon them, and they would break down in tears. And I would say, Well, what's going on there, like somebody's finally listening to me, somebody finally, here's the challenges that I'm going through. And I'm not coming to you because I think you have all the answers, but the fact that you're here and present, and allowing me to express this and not, like we talked about before not telling me I'm crazy, or trying to put me back in my box. That was invaluable. So then when I thought and this was more from a business perspective, at first, well, there's only so many hours in the day. And if I want to transition from this as a nice little side hustle to this as a business, either my prices skyrocket, or I have to serve more people in the same amount of time. So I started talking to a few people that said, Try groups. Are you kidding? I can never help more than one person on a call at once. That's crazy. I had this impostor syndrome about helping one but five people, you're nuts. Yeah, then all of a sudden, they get five people on a call with the same curriculum going through the same journey. And it was just this huge aha moment of it wasn't just I can scale my ability to work with more people in the same 60 or 90 minutes, they will come to me afterwards. And they would say I have felt so alone, thinking I'm the only one going through this being on a call with five other people, or 10 or 15 other people that are going through the same thing has just completely changed my perspective. And my ability to know that I might actually get through this watching other people that are going through it. And then the next step was, well, could I do this with more than five at once? Well, that's crazy. Can I do this with 15, or 20, or 150 people on a call once this insane, same thing kept happening. And the messages that I get over and over from my students in the Slack community is as soon as they join, they go on to an office hours call where they'll have one or two or three students that will do an individual hotseat with me, but in a group setting. And it could be somebody that I've never heard of, they'd registered, I didn't even have a call with them. And they say, Oh, my God, I can't believe I'm not alone. I spent years thinking there's something wrong with me, or I'm the only person going through this. We're all going through this. That to me is so much more invaluable than you know what, here's how to tweak the headline of your resume. Yeah, right. So the group community experience went from well, maybe this is a way to help me scale a little bit to this could be a fun little side feature where Oh, I'll add the Slack community to one of the bullet points to my businesses, building community. And the education is now a feature. And that was I never saw that coming. But building community is now what I do for a living, and the coaching and the online courses and all the other Those to me are bells and whistles. But that's not the business model. The business model is building a safe space of creatives and artists and thinkers and problem solvers, where we can work through all these major transitions, life challenges and learning all of the life skills that the world never taught us.
Philippe Danielides: Yeah, that's beautiful. And I'm happy that you're doing and I'm happy for the community that you serve, that you're doing it and to those of you who Were listening who haven't joined the community yet not as a market, not as a pitch to that. But just to say, I promise you and Zack maybe if you want to join, join, if you want, I promise you that whatever it is that you are thinking that you are dealing with on your own, whatever problem or challenge character flaw, however it is that you framed it, that is in the way of greater connection, happiness, fulfillment, engagement, that you think is specific to you, it is your personal experience, and you are experiencing something that is part of the human experience that I promise you, people around you are also experiencing. And so I know the depths of another can make you feel alone, like sitting by her self, on the 54th floor, in a small office at three in the morning, looking down at the city, while people I would see cars so I would see life happening, and the city going on from the stillness and the quiet, and the solitude of that of that office. So I understand that the depth of that feeling, and can just promise you that there are people not too far away from you, in all ways will get physic, geographically, spiritually, psychologically, who are there who are going through that experience. And one a really powerful way that that I finally landed, for me, it was actually through storytelling was through mythology, which I know you have, have an interest in certainly prior podcasts, but also as a as a storyteller. And that for me bringing mythology let's say into my life, not in my it was there being introduced to mythology in a way where it wasn't just entertainment, but engaging with these stories in Oh, in a way where treating them as roadmaps, treating them in a way where there was something there in those stories, some wisdom, some insight about what it is to be human, that was so important that we as human beings decided to preserve and carry these stories for hundreds and hundreds of years, and to still have them in our life, that there's something in there. And I found real comfort and connection in seeing myself and seeing the struggles that I have in my own life. In the stories that were told 1000s of years ago, across cultures across the world. I don't know, I'm wondering what you're experiencing?
Zack Arnold: Well, first of all, I agree with all that. Kind of as a side note, but not completely. A side note, what's fascinating about this that you are unaware of is I have recorded multiple additional podcasts that are talking about this exact topic of storytelling in the science of storytelling and why our brains are wired to be driven towards stories and why we want to tell better stories. They haven't come out yet, at least as of recording this most likely, by the time our interview will have come out it will be coupled with those because it's the perfect extension of what I talked about with Christopher Vogler and then digging deeper into both understanding both the art but also the science of storytelling, and also how we better tell our own stories. So like from the outside looking in hearing you talk and like, Oh, my God, I already know exactly where to put this conversation in the rotation. Because you're talking about all these things that I've talked about endlessly, and other interviews that you haven't even listened to. But the part that I really want to highlight, and if I get in legal trouble for this, I'm going to need you as my representative, but I'm gonna go one layer further than you, you promised, I'm going to guarantee that I know that word scares you. I'm gonna guarantee whatever experience you're going through right now and not you, I'm talking to the people that are listening and watching this, whatever experience you're going through, I guarantee you're not the first one to experience it. It is not this unique once in a lifetime, maybe the specific details are unique too. But the general experience is part of the human experience, I guarantee that somebody else has gone through it. And there are other people out there that can support you. And it's all part of us being involved in each other's stories rather than thinking we are telling our own story. And that brings me to where I want to transition to next is we haven't talked about editors versus directors versus writers versus lawyers at all. We're talking about the human experience, and what I'm interested in hearing from you because I know it's going to be way more similarities than differences. But because you're in a different industry, I just I want to confirm my hypothesis, that you work with a lot of very type a very driven very ambitious people. And what I would love to know in your practice of either working in that field or now working as a coach in that field, what are the patterns that you see and the story Is that you hear over and over and over, that you feel are leading people towards both burnout and this identity crisis of what do I even want out of my life?
Philippe Danielides: Yeah, that's a great question. So the name of my coaching business is the Blue Pen Project. And that name comes from the problem that I sought to solve, which I call the red pen problem. And just to take a few have landed a land the plane in one or two minutes, we're just to lay it out, because it's really provided the conceptual foundation of all the work that I do. So being the good lawyer researcher that I am when I sought out to create programs and frameworks to help people I work with, and yes, your hypothesis is correct. So to start from that, that point, I did my research, and I spoke to literally hundreds of lawyers asking them what was the, let's say, the biggest obstacle in their way to a more engaged, fulfilling life. And there was a range of course of of answers. But it was, you know, no time, no energy, right, stress and burnout, probably a lot of the same things that you would hear. But after I gathered, it was over 400. I went back through the data, and I was looking at everyone's answers. And what I really pulled out were a couple of themes that I thought were really the core of people's challenges. So when I noticed that they were like, somatically, there were really three areas of concern that were leading to the vast majority of problems that lawyers were articulating. And the first was the expectation of reality. And this was their thought of like how life is whatever the answer to the question of like, this is how life goes, this is what it's about. And it's not really an objective response that we have, we have a bias and the way that I like to test that is if you went on some amazing like vacation or had some experience and came back to work, and you went into someone in the hallway and they say we're a family member who's just a curmudgeon, and they say, welcome back to reality. Like when they say that, right? How do they mean it? They're not like screaming confetti, like Welcome back, like you've been gone? Right? There's a message in that that speaks to this idea of where we think reality is and what it should feel like what being successful responsible, feels like. So there was that anchoring of where they think reality is and what it should feel. The second was, what I call like, the primacy of others needs, like lawyers, were good students, right, just kind of by definition, to get into law school and school was all about doing what the teacher said, being really good at that being a lawyer is all about doing what the client says and being really attuned to the needs and expectations of others. And so a lot of the people I spoke to, were very sensitive to how whatever they might do would affect and let down, you know, disappoint their team, certainly, but their family, right, parents, friends, whoever, so they were primarily focused on on that. And the third was what I call living in the margins. So they were exhausted, right, they were burned out. And they were trying things but they weren't really working. And what I noticed is, well, they weren't really working, because most of their life, let's say was already spoken for. So after you took like the reality of like how things are and their responsibilities and other people's expectations, there was this little sliver left of their own life that they had some measure of control over that they could do something about. And so they were, let's say, calibrating their efforts, just to that, like 15 20% of their life that they thought was leftover after everyone else had, you know, taken their part. And so they were instituting, you know, habits and doing things. But those were rational efforts that couldn't possibly address the entirety of their lives. And then they were wondering why they weren't really feeling the kinds of changes that they wanted. And what I realized was that those different areas were perfectly encapsulated in the experience of being a lawyer for me as a corporate lawyer, and this your audience may not get this specifically. But I think that's why I wanted to lay out the idea is first and then anchor it in a brief metaphor, and then we can move on, which is, so as a corporate lawyer, I would spend my whole day drafting these really dry complex documents sitting my office like going at it, but most of the documents were templates. So at 75 80% of what was written had already been written before, right, it was boilerplate and had already been decided. And so my job was to change the 1520 percent of the terms of the language in the contract to like, bring it up to date. So we would call them, you know, these precedent documents. And then after I fixed the 20%, I would send it off to the partner like the senior lawyer, who would then take a look. And while they were looking, I would sit there nervously, like waiting. And what I was waiting to get back was a document filled with like, corrective red pen. So that was the worst case scenario. But the real aha for me around this was, what was the best case scenario that I was hoping for that I was working day and night and sacrificing my health, and my relationships for and for me, and for many lawyers, the best case scenario was just a really short email saying this is fine. Best case scenario was a no comment, kind of like neutral, nothing. And that was how I was living my life. 85%. So going back to like those, those first three points, I only felt like I had responsibility or authority to change 15% of my life, the rest was already spoken for, like those contracts. And when I was changing those 15%, I was still mindful that whatever I was changing was subject to the approval of someone else who was holding that red pen. And so I was writing with the fear and the expectation that whatever I wrote, had to meet their approval and had to meet their needs, and doing whatever I could to get to this, like baseline reality of like, Yeah, fine, good enough. So I hope that's not too long, I want to lay that out. And that's really formed the core of my work. And so the pen, and we can get out, I'll stop. And if you have any, any questions, we can go in a different direction. But the idea of the blue pen, and what that meant was a shift away from that way of thinking and that way of approaching one's life, which was to put down the precedents, right, the documents that had mostly other people's writing on it, where you were writing also for someone else to correct, and then picking up a blank piece of paper, and a blue pen, and daring to write your own life into existence, in your own words. And sorry, go ahead, go ahead. And that's the fundamental shift in one's relationship to one's life, that has been the biggest change for for lawyers in terms of opening up a lot of like new possibilities as to how they can relate to themselves to their work, what kinds of, you know, identities, ways of seeing themselves, they really want to cultivate and strengthen, and which ways of seeing themselves they want to leave behind.
Zack Arnold: I went into this conversation completely dark, having no idea if my hypothesis was going to be true. But you just confirmed that beyond the shadow of a doubt, which is that if we took all of my client notes, and we took your client notes, and we removed specific mentions of lawyer versus editor versus writer versus director, or, you know, I work for Paramount versus I work for Goldman Sachs, stuff like that, you take out the superficial details, and we mix them around, I don't think we would know whose notes belong to whom, yeah, because you're talking about the exact same universal experience that I hear from so many of my clients, and the other hypothesis that you are confirming. And I've talked about this with other experts in the fields of science and fulfillment, and in happiness. And I even asked one of the world's foremost experts, the top teacher at I believe it's Harvard, about the science of happiness. Dr. Tal Ben Shahar. And I said, Here's my hypothesis. As a layperson, I believe the root cause of burnout is the disconnect between reality and our expectations. You can use that in so many different contexts. But we expect something more we're trying to meet unrealistic expectations, or we have internal expectations that aren't being met, whether it's while I'm in the corner office, and I'm getting paid shit tons of money. And I've got an amazing title that I've worked hard for the expectation of how it should feel doesn't meet the reality of how I feel, or the expectation that the industry puts upon you, as a lawyer or the industry puts upon me and my audience, as a craft, you need to get this amount done in this amount of time, completely unrealistic expectations that the human body simply cannot meet. So there's a whole host of other reasons that I believe lead to burnout, but I think all of them can be broken down to the root level, which is reality and expectation don't align whatsoever. And the reason I wanted to bring this up even further, as you mentioned, this idea of Welcome back to reality. Yeah, right. And I think that, like you said, it's not just the words is the tone. And in general, the tone is Well, welcome back down to reality. Yes, right. If you were to add that word, it's much more accurate. The reason I find this so interesting specifically is that in my industry, there is an actual part of it. That's called Real Reality like reality television, the colloquial term is what do you work in? Oh, I work in scripted TV, I edit features, oh, I work in reality, right. And people don't think about what that actually means from a more existential level. But so many of the people that I talked to in the very first introductory call, they don't even realize what they're saying. But when they say over and over, I can't go back to reality. And that has such a profound meaning beyond just this as a sub genre of the entertainment industry. Whatever it takes, you got to help me I can't go back to reality. And I feel like you're talking about the same thing, just in a different industry.
Philippe Danielides: Yeah, one of my coaches, Seth Ellsworth, we work together number of years ago, and he talked a lot about the power of normal. And that's just right for human beings. And you're nodding, right? This idea of where we anchor what is normal for us human beings, like we're all very adaptable, and we can get used to whatever the situation it is that we're in, but also the situation internally, whatever our thought process is, whatever the probably no more than, like four or five thoughts that we think there are a lot more that are swirling on repeat, again and again, in our head that are informing how we, how we see ourselves how we're relating to the world around us. But wherever that normal is for us, and you can put identity, right identity is a way of saying, Well, what is normal for me, I'm the kind of person who I'm a lazy person, well, then you're going to act that way. Because that's what's normal for you. And that's the expectation that you have of yourself is to be a lazy person. So your actions are just going to are just going to confirm that whether or not that's actually true. That is your lived reality, because that's to you normal, and the power and the challenge that comes with what we've all are not all that's to expansively. But what many of us certainly in a mainstream, you know, let's say mainstream culture, have come to agree is normal, in terms of how it what it takes to be successful, and what it feels like, or what it should feel like as we are striving for an achieving that success. So that's the for me, like the reality is speaking to a subjective what it feels like to be living that life, which is you tell me if it's different. And by the way, I will thank you and your community for providing me and my kind with the entertainment and the reprieve on Sunday nights that we could take at least a few hours to forget the Monday morning was coming. So thank you for
Zack Arnold: Your welcome from myself and everybody else that just listening right now that generates that entertainment.
Philippe Danielides: Yeah, so thank you. But But that right, whatever it was that where we knew were like the end of like Sunday night that we were going back to that was normal, and what it felt like to be there. That's the normal, that's the reality. And I think many of us are pointing to and so long as we are going back to the red pen problem, right? So long as like this is fine, is what you will you've accepted as normal, what you think is the most that you can expect from your life? Or if like, you know, welcome back to the reality that reality is that like, lat muted, gray feeling. And that's just how things are, well, then, it's really hard to to adapt, right and to maintain in a sustainable way. And you were speaking with Mike Vardy has probably come up in a number of other conversation. But that idea of like consistent, consistently sustaining different practices, you're not going to, in the long term, stick to and sustain different habits, ways of being that are going to lead to a different way of feeling right, feeling better, happier, whatever, if you don't separate from and dislodge from what you believe is actually the norm. Does that make sense?
Zack Arnold: It not only does it make sense. But I have a couple of things that I want to add to it specifically for my entertainment driven audiences to hit this point home. Because this is such an important part of this process. There are two two of my favorite quotes from completely different one is a movie one is a TV show, they couldn't be more different from each other. But the two quotes are the first one is from the truth, Truman Show. Where the quote goes, we accept the reality of the world with which we are presented. It's as simple as that. And then there's a quote from again, could not be more different from The Handmaid's Tale, which is that ordinary is what we are used to. Right. And the reason I bring this up is that these are both very subjective interpretations and not objective interpretations, which as you said, means that we can change what that version of reality looks like for us. And that's the direction that I want to go to next. Because this is such a profound problem. There's a disk proportionate amount of us talking about in this conversation specifically the problem because it's so big usually, I like to get a sense of what's the problem and really get into solutions because I'm very action driven. Right?
Philippe Danielides: Lawyer, we have problems. I apologize.
Zack Arnold: No, I don't want you to apologize at all, because I think that talking about the problem is so important for the reason we've already mentioned, which is that everybody's going through it. But now I want to transition to the solution, which is, I'm going through all these things. I'm listening to this, I'm nodding my head to the point where I need a chiropractor. Oh, my God, this is me right now. How do I figure out what I really want? How do we start moving towards changing the subjective version of our reality and rewriting our own stories? Where would you start?
Philippe Danielides: Where would I start? Well, so when I talked about the blue, the blue pen, right, picking up a blue pen living a blue pen life, there are really two things in there. One is recognizing that that's not only possible, but being willing to do that. So the willingness to pick up that pen in the first place, which is an act of courage, which in the hero's journey, right? That's that first step out of the village into the unknown where there is like, at that moment, the minimum, like the least amount of like certainty, probably zero and maximum uncertainty, the most uncomfortable position, psychologically, spiritually, emotionally, that a human being can be in taking that first step is essential. So that's picking up that pen stepping out of the village. And I know that's in a metaphorical context. And we can bring that down into you know what that can mean practically,
Zack Arnold: This is the call to adventure, we can get very practical. This is a call to adventure.
Philippe Danielides: It's, it's answering the call to adventure.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, well done. Yes, exactly.
Philippe Danielides: Answering the call to adventure which is now sometimes the gap between hearing the call and answering it. And that's really important as well, because I think a lot of shame can show up for people in that time, it took me three to four years between hearing the call and answering it before I finally did. And now I'm not saying that that's normal, a normal amount of time, maybe I could have done it faster. But just to say that there is often a gap. And that's also part of the journey. Anyways,
Zack Arnold: if it makes me feel any better, I'm on your seventh, I'm still making the transition. So you're not alone, don't beat yourself up.
Philippe Danielides: Oh, you know, come on. You're there, you're there. You're
Zack Arnold: I'm there ish, let's put it that way that that could be to podcast in and of itself,
Philippe Danielides: we've now we've been out in the woods we are on we are on the road out there on the road. So one is, is taking that step answering the call. And then it's learning how to be out there. So going back to like having that freedom, there's a certain comfort and having things written down for you. So if I looked down on that page, and it was covered with 90% of other people's words, and I was on the responsible for 10%, there might be a frustration, but if I'm being honest, and maybe if we all are, there's also a certain comfort in knowing that things were kind of like taken care of. And I'm only responsible for this little bit. So looking down at a blank page, which again, your writers will probably know, right, what that's like that blank page carries with it the freedom and the possibility to go anywhere. And that freedom can be exciting and enthralling and inspiring. But it can also be absolutely terrifying, and daunting. And so the skills and what I've really built my coaching practice around and the book or all the tools have been geared toward answering the question of i How, how do I write? How do I navigate this blank page? How do I say yes to that freedom to write, in my own words, to write my life into existence. And so we can get into some of the frameworks, the way I think about it, they're really specific exercises that we could also talk about, if you want to get down on the granular, granular level. But you know, that's what I would, I would say, answering the call to adventure, and then cultivating the skills that are really required in order to sustain that freedom.
Zack Arnold: Great. So let's keep digging in there. This is just going to be a workshop now. So essentially, this is going to be partly literally coming from me because I'm still in the process myself and some stepping into the shoes of some of my students that have come to me much earlier in the process. And I know that a core question that you help people with is one that I'm still working to answer, but I have a lot of clarity on it. But let's assume that I don't. Yeah, let's assume that I know what I don't want out of life. Yeah, but other than that, I'm clueless. How do I answer the question? What do I actually want?
Philippe Danielides: Yeah. Oh, you're just throwing up some softballs here.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, this is an easy one, the alternative. Could you explain to us the meaning of life?
Philippe Danielides: We're just gonna answer that right now and then million hits?
Zack Arnold: Well, we're talking about how you have to step into this place of discomfort. There's no scarier place than when you're safe. And you're comfortable, right that That's that's and that's the part that we're talking about you were finally safe and comfortable in the 54th floor realizing I this is the most miserable place I could possibly be I was there to I was safe, and I was comfortable and I hated. And what I thrive on is a place of discomfort. I'm constantly seeking the right amount of discomfort because that's where the growth happens. So rather than just kind of, you know, going with a little tiny exercises, like it, we're talking about the meaning of life right now, right? All right, so let's, let's problem solve this.
Philippe Danielides: I've started sweating a little bit, but in a good way.
Zack Arnold: It's funny, I have a client of mine that I can almost set my watch to the point in our sessions, where she takes her outer layer out. She's like, Oh, my God, I just broke out in a huge sweat. I'm like, Yep, it's about 1037. That seems about right. Because you have that parasympathetic response, really? Oh, my God, this is scary. And you and I are there right now we're trying to figure out really big questions and help people through these transitions. So answer the question for me, what do I actually want? How do I get there?
Philippe Danielides: Yeah. So I think when when people are entering the space, I'd say one, again, just like with the the hero's journey, it's really hard to step out on your own, there's normally a guide, right to some kind of like wisdom. And in that I don't mean literally, like hire a coach. I mean, I know we are who we are. And that's part of our work. But it doesn't have to be a coach, it can be a friend, but to choose carefully, if you're needing some support and finding someone this is really, really important. If you're not, you know, working with someone professionally to offer you this kind of support, where you're at this moment, and you're staring out to find a friend, like someone in your network, who has the ability to support you, and to listen to you without jumping in and trying to save you and giving advice as to what they think you should do, which is another way of saying if I was you be still being me, this is what I would do. So that's really, really important, because you're going to be at a very sensitive place. And there's a lot of uncertainty. So finding someone who can, like honor that and like, stay with you in it, rather than trying to, you know, grab you by like the by the shoulder and pull you to the side of the pool back to safety where they also feel more comfortable. That is essential, I want to say that upfront, when I'm working with people up front, I find that the the first thing that we need to do is to attend to what I call meaningful choice, there are really four, I'd say pillars to the work that I do. And the first and most important is meaningful choice. And that is expanding the spectrum of possibilities and choices that they are entertaining. And to use a metaphor. I think sailing is such a perfect metaphor for so much in life. I don't I don't sail, but also for for coaching and this kind of work. Many of us many of the people I speak to this is myself, you're on a ship, right, your choice is about which direction to sail in. But for many of us, we're choosing from a set of like very narrow predetermined choices. So it's like being on a river where you're sailing, and you get to choose to sail upstream or downstream. And in a way it feels like a choice. And it is but you're really picking from choices that have already been made for you. So the first thing to do is to expand out and to transition from being like a ship on a river to a ship in the ocean, where there's around you more possibility about the direction that you can go and so that you can make a meaningful choice about which direction to actually go in. That's really, really important. And that's a lot of the what you might call conflict, the mindset, you know, limiting beliefs. I don't know if you've read the book, Designing your Life. Have you heard of that book?
Zack Arnold: I've heard of it. I haven't actually read it. But I've read certainly things that are derivative of the same idea.
Philippe Danielides: Or professors that Stanford in the design school. And they use the term dysfunctional beliefs, which I like, I personally like a lot better than limiting beliefs, because it's really, what's what's helpful to you? Is this helping you to function in your life to be the person you want to move in the direction that you want to do it move in anyways, as an aside, so that's that like mindset work of moving from? Well, I get to choose to go upstream or downstream to oh, I can actually entertain the possibility that I have a choice in my life as to which of these directions on the ocean to go and that's really the first element and I just want to stop there. Is that Is that too conceptual?
Zack Arnold: No, that's perfect. I mean, you're using different words to describe the exact same concepts and the same process that I walked through with people through and for me, it's all about shifting your mindset, which is what you're doing. And the work that I referenced a lot will be Carol Dweck, book Mindset, which is essentially the fixed mindset versus the growth mindset. And I love this idea of using the river versus the ocean because the river Yeah, you could choose to go upstream or downs. Drain, but for the most part, and the harder the water is rushing, you're kind of going with the flow. And you're saying, it is what it is. This is the circumstance that I'm in, and I'm going forwards. But what control Do I really have, that's the fixed mindset, I am who I am, this is what I'm given, I can't control it or change it or take responsibility for it, versus the growth mindset. I can take control and take responsibility for my actions for my past behaviors. But those are things that can change and grow. And even on the neurological level, this thing called neuroplasticity, we can literally rewire our brains to change our perspective, change our mood, change your level of optimism, optimism versus pessimism. And that, to me is the exact same thing you're talking about with a different metaphor, out in the ocean, you can go in any direction that you want, but you also don't have the water to do the work for you, you might have a little bit of help from the wind, but you're gonna have to put in the effort to choose the direction and go in that direction. So we're on the same page, different metaphors, that's the only difference.
Philippe Danielides: And so that's it like what the difference is between the river and the ocean, what changes what changes that is going to be like you're thinking about the kind of person you are the stories you've been telling yourself about what you think is possible, about what you're motivated to do. A lot of lawyers have had this experience where they've been successful at something that they're not necessarily that excited about, which may actually be different than than your industry, a lot of people in your industry. And so what that success has felt like where they've gotten motivation from is not from moving towards something that they want. But moving away from the the like failure and disappointment, like you're getting a bad grade getting fire. So it's more avoidance of bad outcomes as a source of motivation, rather than moving towards something that's actually exciting to them. And there's a fear that if they were to take that source of motivation away, right the stick that's like, Okay, if you don't do this thing, you're going to be in trouble, that they would literally collapse into a puddle on the ground and not do anything because there's they have no internal source of motivation that would power them forward. So using that metaphor, like the ship, okay, if no one's pushing me, while I'm not going to go anywhere, I'm just going to sit here. So those kinds of stories that you might tell yourself about who you are, and by what possibilities are available to you, and which you've already decided without experimenting just aren't. And that work can take some time. But that's really important work to do at the beginning. So that you can make a meaningful choice about second, which is which direction to head in. It's like all the directional clarity, once you have open ocean, figuring out which direction to sail toward, takes time. And that's the right moving from I know what I don't want to I know what I want. The book that I wrote the lawyer's guide to freedom was specifically around bridging that gap between I know what I don't want, which is a start. But it's not a direction to I know what I want, which gives you enough of a focus to begin paddling, sailing, I don't know what kind of ship this. This is. And for, for me what I found, but I'm not saying is the only way but what I noticed in in a lot of interviews that I did, and looking back through all of my client notes was that a lot of learners were taking it personally that somehow this was indicative of like their identity. I'm just someone who doesn't know what they want as a personal limitation, or failing, when really what was happening is that they were all skipping this one essential step. So it was really about process. It wasn't personal. And that step was the identification of their criteria. So let's say you set a goal of very broadly, but I think this is narrow enough. I want a career I love fine. Okay, you want a career your love, great, let's set that as a goal. But how do you find that you can google career I love you can't go on LinkedIn and start searching for jobs or network with people and say, Hey, I'm looking for a job I love Can You Do you know where that is? Can you put me in touch? And that's where they were having difficulty. And so the identification of their criteria was what were the criteria, right? The specific features or characteristics that if met, would lead to a job that you love. And so helping them and challenging them to get really clear on what those criteria were was essential because what that gave them was a really usable, like functional direction, a compass for setting which direction to head in. So that's one, pointing them in direction and really importantly, helping them to recognize when they found what they were looking for. That is really huge. So figuring out what you're looking for and being able to recognize when you found it so that you can stop looking and commit to that thing. And that's the book. I mean, I wrote it like longer. And I spent a lot of time just like cutting out all the stuff that I thought was extraneous, maybe like ego like, Well, do you need to know this, but that wasn't absolutely essential to helping them to do that. But that was the tool that I wanted to offer, not only my clients who I'm working with one on one, which some people have the time and resources to do that, but not everyone does. So to have a tool that can be more accessible to people who are in that place and feeling really frustrated, because they couldn't bridge that gap. Wondering for you, what you found is the doesn't necessarily have to be one thing, but what's what is in that gap, but you know, what I don't want and I know what I do? And how do you help your your clients make that jump?
Zack Arnold: This is basically the kernel of where I started with all of this, and figuring out what is it that I actually want? What does happiness even mean? And how do we define it digging into the science of it, the difference between saying I'm happy versus I'm fulfilled, I've just I'm obsessed with answering all these questions. And what I have found through all of the books that I've read, and the courses that I've taken, and everything else, it really comes down to, and this is going to be the antithesis of what we talked about with burnout, that what by and large across different cultures, ethnicities, genders, professions, universally, the three things that really contribute to our level of fulfillment are number one, we have some control or autonomy of how we use our time. So what you're talking about when I'm working on lighters, I'm working on these briefs, I don't feel like I have any control over my time and I can't breathe, that's what leads to the burnout. The second is I lack meaning in the work that I'm doing. And the third is the quality of the relationships with the people that I have around me. So again, if we look at those from the perspective of I know what I don't want, I don't want to be told what to do when I don't want to be getting text messages and phone calls and zoom calls when it's the weekend. But while I'm home, and I'm available anyway. So what's the point I just got out of surgery, but I'm just in bed, lack of autonomy of time. The second is lack of meaning in your work where you're saying, Somebody did 85% of it, I'm just a machine that's filling the gaps, which AI at some point is probably going to be able to do for us and the relative near future anyway, so I'm just a warm body, what am I contributing to this. And number three, I'm around people that just see me as that warm body where they would replace me tomorrow. So if you can reverse those three, and you can, number one, have more control and autonomy over your time. Number two, find work that has real meaning. And number three, surround yourself with the right people, that changes your entire version of reality. And I want to dig into the second one very specifically. And I want to I want to again, I'm going to make an assumption. And then I apotheosis and guess some of the experiences you've had with your clients, and you tell me if I am onto something, or if I'm just completely full of it, I would guess that you have found more than once with a client where they say, I hate being a lawyer, I don't want to be a lawyer anymore. I just want to do anything but not being a lawyer. But if you dig in further, you might find that it's not the process of being the lawyer. It's the impact that their work as a lawyer is having. So instead of, I'm a corporate attorney, well, I'm working with foster families to be able to bring children into their lives. So I'm helping people with adoption, same day to day, maybe a little bit better hours, maybe not. But when you have a meaningful connection to the impact your work is having it changes the game. So have you seen with your clients where the job actually doesn't change that much, but if they have more control over what they're doing, and they get more meaning out of it, that it totally changes their perception of their reality?
Philippe Danielides: Yes, that is a correct hypothesis. And I would say most of the people that I work with, do not leave the law. There's a whole cottage industry of coaches and counselors who help people to do that. And that's fine, if that's where you are. A lot of people don't and I'm certainly not in the camp of people should I'm in the camp of you should get clear on what matters to you, what makes you happy, what success looks like for you and to make choices that are in alignment with that whatever that is. And most of the clients who I work with, who are lawyers stay being lawyers, some stay in their jobs, some move to a slightly different adjacent field, but are still practicing. And what changes is, is primarily it's it's reclaiming some sense of control, I would use the word authority over their lives and the decisions that they're making. And that's the going from the metaphor that I use from the 15% right on the margins where most of your life is already spoken for. Like they would say, Philippe, look, you make these changes, but don't touch the rest because that was written by smarter, more experienced lawyers than you over the years and like it's perfect don't have Leave it as it is. So that's this idea of, okay, most of how I'm living my life. And what I'm being told to do was decided by other people who seemed to know better, or just this is how society is, and I just need to accept it. Let me see what I can do in this little bit that's been leftover, let me see what I can do, and live my life after nine or 10 o'clock at night, or on like Saturday afternoons. But when I'm so tired, probably from the week that I have hobbies and interests that I would like to pursue, but I'm just on the couch, because I'm like, flat, I got nothing left. So moving from I have control over a little bit on the periphery to this is my life, in its entirety. This is the full page, what choices do I want to make, and even that shift, and I would say, like to your to your listeners, even if you stay in the same job, and the only thing that changes is I've stuck in this job. And I have to do this, and I have no other choice to you know what, right now, this is a job that I'm choosing, it may not be longer term, but for now, for the reasons, you know, in my life, all the factors, I have decided that this is what makes the most sense. So I'm going to do this. And then I can make a different choice, when I'm ready, when I reach a point in my life where a different choice would make more sense to me. Even if nothing else changes, that is going to significantly shift your experience of your day, your energy, your confidence, your your I wouldn't say maybe necessarily excitement, but it's going to have an impact. And I would say you're nodding your head, if that's
Zack Arnold: I'm nodding my head emphatically because again, slightly different words to say the exact same thing. One of the core lessons that I teach, a group of students that I have, that's a subset of my coaching program is taking people that are relatively unfit unhealthy out of shape and turning them into Spartan racers and having them run their first Spartan Race. And there's a lesson that I teach and one of the weeks is every week is a lesson in mindset that is then basically demonstrated in a very physical setting. And I put them through it's a fair amount of misery, it's misery with love, but it's pretty miserable. And I don't remember what exactly the exercise was, at this time, I think it was, I had them climb up and down a very steep sand dune for hours. I mean, if you've ever walked through sand this level, it's exhausting. Now imagine it at a 45 degree angle, and it goes on for a quarter mile. And it's not once it's like 567 10 times. And I said, this is the mantra that I want in your mind as you're doing this. It's not I have to climb this hill, I get to climb this hill. Yeah, just that one shift changes your perception of reality. And one of the things I talk about with working in the industry, is that you may say that this is my nightmare job. This is a paycheck job. It's just for the money, and I hate it. But that's your perspective, your nightmare job could be somebody else's dream job, and the only difference is your perspective versus theirs. And you can shift your own perspective. So like you said, even if it's just for a short period of time, I get to do this, it helps me earn the money to keep my bills paid while I'm looking to go in another direction, if that's one of the circumstances, but it just comes back to, again, this belief of having this growth mindset to really see that the reality with which I'm presented is only one version, it's very subjective and not objective. And I know that I promise that we're going to segue right to the end of this right on time. But this conversation is so good, I haven't been able to figure out a way to do it. Because I am totally in the zone with you, right now?
Philippe Danielides: We're good, I'm good. You know, however you want. I'm not I didn't schedule a call for right now. So we're
Zack Arnold: Well, good. We're gonna extend, we're gonna break all of my rules about time management and respecting people's boundaries, because you've totally sucked me in. And there's one more concept that I want to add to this that I think is the core, at least from my perspective, and again, you probably have a slightly different but same approach to this, which is really identifying with your why. So your why in quotes. And in my world, it would be what's your creative calling in in your world is probably very, very similar. Where, again, it's one thing to say, I want to be a lawyer, or I want to be a successful lawyer, or I want to be a corporate lawyer or a contract lawyer or in the prosecution, versus Why did you really get into this? What was the spark? And if the spark was, well, when I was seven years old, I myself was in the foster system. And I remember there was this one lawyer that I met with the change in my life and put me from a bad situation to a good one. I want to help people. If that's your why and you don't realize it, and you're drawing up contracts all day long. You're going to hate what you do. So for me, I really helped facilitate, where is your why what is your creative calling, so that even if you're doing the same job for the same hours, even with the same people, if you can connect with a deeper impact, it changes your perspective. I'm curious how in your world, you approach a similar challenge.
Philippe Danielides: Yeah, and this might be this might be a little different. The way that I approach working with My clients do is well helping them to figure out their why. But it's really the question is what is genuinely motivating to you. So the sub title of my book is six steps to discover what you actually want. And that word actually is a different right color and set out. And because that's really the crux of it, is helping them to identify what is a genuine need a genuine desire of theirs, and to discern that from what they think they should be doing what other people have put on them as expectations that they're trying to fulfill. And to get at that, because that is going to be the source of that sustaining motivation to move forward where that's motivation toward right that why I think that gets to the same idea, it's that pull mode A why, to me, is pull motivation, right is someone helping you up the hill, rather than the push motivation of like someone of someone behind and that it feels different, I think energetically, there's a different cost to push motivation of all if I don't do this, then something bad's gonna happen rather than man, that thing looks really amazing this vision that I have of my life, and the impact that I'm going to have is so inspiring and engaging, I want to make that happen, I want to do what I can to realize that. So whatever that is, as it relates to their career or not, that also means putting career in context, because for some people who I work with their career is is just a job and to allow them to accept that as well. And to let it just be a job and to shift their motivation to other areas of their life is also something that they're looking for permission for, so that they can establish balance, and balance based on truth of how these different things matter to them, and how they're weighted in their own lives. And so that's a really big piece of this. But once they establish that why of what are the areas in their life that are genuinely motivating to them, then it's okay, who do you need to be I call it genuine confidence. That's really the third. So it's choice is directional clarity. And then it's confidence. And the way that I speak about confidence isn't in the competence sort of way like I'm confident in my ability to what I have found is that for most people I speak with their success has come at the cost of their own needs. So on their path to success, if you look behind, what you will see is a trail of broken promises to themselves, they've kept the promises to everyone else. They've met everyone's expectations. But along the way, whatever promises they've made to themselves, I'm gonna, like, eat healthier, I'm going to like pick up this, like happy, whatever it is, they've let that they've let that go. So what they've developed is this inner crisis of trust, where they literally don't believe themselves, when they make a commitment to themselves when they make a promise to themselves. And so long as you're taking action, because other people are telling you what to do, and you're just like, well, I need to do it or, or else, well, then that's not a problem. But the second, you try to shift, your locus of motivation and your why from so I don't get in trouble, and disappoint people too. Because this genuinely matters to me, then that becomes extremely important. That is your biggest asset, your belief in yourself your confidence that when you commit to something, that it matters, that your word matters, and that you're going to follow through. But that's one of the biggest things that we then work on. But that only becomes relevant once lawyer once clients have turned their attention from oh, these people are going to be pissed. If I don't do this thing. I better do it to what actually matters to me. What do I want to stand for in my life? What am I being called to in my life?
Zack Arnold: For anybody that missed it? We had what I like to call a mic drop moment. This is one of those that even me listening today it hit me this one would hit me like a ton of bricks seven years ago. Your path to success is littered with broken promises to yourself. Holy man did that hit like a ton of bricks, because that is exactly what I hear from so many people that I work with myself included at one point, you have all these ideas, all these visualizations, all these as we talked about earlier expectations, realizing that the reality you're in doesn't meet the expectations and there are so many other things that you probably said no to, for yourself for the benefit of yourself, whether it was sleep, whether it was time with family, with kids, with friends, whatever it might have been all those broken promises and met your own expectations. So you then just meet other people's expectations. That is such a huge and profound idea that I just I needed to make sure to emphasize because that one really really hits hard for so many people.
Philippe Danielides: Yeah. And it's something that I've had to learn right You know, this way, we're only saying things, we're only teaching things that we need to learn ourselves and be reminded of ongoingly. So that's still something that's very much alive, for me in my life and my work. And I would say just one more thing to not to button it up. Because there's so much more than we could talk about with this, it's wonderful to be able to jam out on these topics that I know are so important, and near and dear to both of us in our in our lives. The real kicker is that all of these elements, right expanding choice so that you can make a meaningful choice about which direction you want to head in and developing genuine confidence in yourself so that you believe that you're going to do it and follow through. All of that has to be there in place, so that when you go to execute, and come up with your plan, right, and your strategies and your tactics and your systems and all of that you're heading toward a goal that you actually want to reach, and that you're going to follow through on on your plan. So that part that I think a lot of people and myself included, want to run to that we're more comfortable with, which is just the execution and the doing, give me a give me a plan, give me a to do list, give me some tests, let's go, it feels good to be doing things. And that is, of course, essential, right to getting the results that we want in our life. So it is an essential pillar to this. And if we rush to that, and rush past this inner work first, then we might be working really hard. And our plan may be working really well. But there's a we increase the risk that when we reach whatever goal we've set in that plan that we're not going to like where we are. And that's going to be a moment where again, we pick our head up and look around and go, What I what just happened, how did I get here, and I go to great lengths to often at the was a frustration, protest annoyance of my clients to slow them down, certainly in the beginning of us like working together to make sure that before they get going with their task list, and all their stuff, which you know, you're you've I was loved. There are a bunch of questions that I had around some organization and productivity and things that like I could really, really learn because it's so important that before they get there and use these incredible tools to reach the goals, they want, that they've really connected with these other elements and are on firm ground.
Zack Arnold: I couldn't agree with all of this more. And essentially, what we've come to is the very beginning of the process. And we could be talking about this literally for hours and hours. And something tells me that we might in the future. And if you ever wanted to geek out on productivity and task lists and project management and all that other stuff. That's just another entire phase of the program I run people through. But to just cap off what you said, I can give them all the strategies, the tactics, the Trello courses, everything else, if they Number one, don't know where they're going. And number two, don't believe they can get there, we're wasting our time, you got to have that component first. And I spent an inordinate amount of time covering that first before it's like Alright, now let's talk about Todoist. Now, let's talk about your calendar time blocks, right? Because you can be efficient with your time very different than being effective with your time. Hey, man, I had been incredibly effective. But I have one last question. I don't ask you to all of my guests and all of my episodes because it's not always applicable. But I do think it's very applicable to today. And that is that I want you to become a time traveler. And I want you to travel back in time. And you're going to get on the subway, and instead of the nurse stopping by you, it's you what advice are you going to give yourself the day that you discovered that you had a tumor?
Philippe Danielides: I would actually say Be patient. Don't rush. I don't say this. I love you ask the question that really give. I needed to take a moment to really think about I love that question. Not from a place of you'll enjoy the journey and not from some enlightened place. It's going to be difficult. But I genuinely do believe this now and I think about this most days of my life. i As hard as it was, I am so grateful that I went through that without that thyroid without my body literally taking over and grounding me for a few weeks and putting me in that place where physically I was so shocked that it shook me out of my hypnosis out of work where I could pick my head up and look around. I might have gone another 1020 30 years, who knows in that job with my head down because I was mentally like pretty committed to it. And I'd spent decades of my life working to get to that place and the fear around doing anything different or what would happen if I didn't stay on that path was so tremendous that it was unthinkable to me at that time to imagine doing anything else. So it really is by the The grace of whoever is in charge, whoever's pulling the strings, that this tumor, but me, you know, on my back for a little bit and gave me an opportunity to create space in my life for some of these really worthy questions to come in. That's how I would put it. And I'm really grateful that they did as hard as it was as crazy as the looks were that I got from my family and friends when they thought that I was blowing out my life and throwing everything away that I worked so hard for how many people have heard that one for all that in, which is the hero's journey, it wouldn't be a story. Without it, there would be nothing to bring back to the village to share to enhance the life and bring vitality back to your community without that experience. So I would say to him, Hey, man, you're like, you're gonna lose your hair over time. But like, Don't worry, I think you can actually like pull it off. Like, it'll be fine, like, don't stress and also just be patient with this, this experience.
Zack Arnold: I don't think I could have wrapped it up any better or more profoundly, very sage wise advice for lawyers and far beyond editors, creatives, writers, just human beings. I think we all need to hear right now with the speed that our culture is moving, be patient, slow down, right, and also seeing that there's a gift in the adversity, huge gift in the adversity that you went through. So the final gift that I want to give to you specifically is that it's the shameless promotion portion of the program. So to wrap it up, is there anything that you want to talk about that you're involved with? Do you want to guide people to a website to a retreat to a getaway if people want to learn more about you, they want to connect with you. They want to work with you. How do they do that?
Philippe Danielides: Sure. I'll thank you. Well, my website for my coaching is bluepenproject.com And on that website, you'll be able to learn about the my book, Fuller's got to freedom courses and my one on one work. Right now, depending on when this this podcast will come out. The other thing and really my passion, one of my passion projects that we didn't get into, but it's been in the room, a lot of what we've been talking about is is in this which is The Garden, which is a retreat that I'm running in Greece from July 15, to the 26th with a friend of mine, Derek that will take us from Athens to Samos to the top of Mount Olympus. Yeah, we could have a whole other discussion when you talk about the sand dunes of of what happens up there. And then to Delphi where the oracle was and gave her prognostications about, about what would happen about what the fates had to say. So that's those dates, you can learn about that at thegarden2023.com, we'd love for you to join us if you're so inclined,
Zack Arnold: I love it, I'm going to make sure that we have all of the information necessary in the show notes, if anybody wants to reach out to me directly. For more info, I'm happy to send it and when he wants to reach out, reach out to Philippe directly, they can definitely do that as well. And I just want to kind of close this by saying how important this conversation is, I believe for everybody, beyond just lawyers, but anybody that's human, we're all sharing this human experience. And I'm just very grateful and thankful that Julie brought you into my life. Because my first response was, I mean to have a lawyer on the show, I don't get it. Well, what's what's the pitch. And now at the end of it, I'm like, oh my god, I'm so glad that you and I had this conversation, we can share it with others. This was a profound experience for me and I really, really appreciate you being here. So thank you.
Philippe Danielides: Thank you very much, Zack, thank you for the warm invitation and the opportunity to spend this time with you. It really it was meaningful, and enlivening. And I learned a lot as well. So thank you
This episode was edited by Chris Orsi, and the show notes were prepared by Debby Germino and published by Glen McNiel.
The original music in the opening and closing of the show is courtesy of Joe Trapanese (who is quite possibly one of the most talented composers on the face of the planet).
Kristina and I covered many topics, including surrounding yourself with the right people and trusting your deeper intuition, even if you feel uncertain about where you’re ultimately headed.
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Beyond Chris’ detailed explanation, we dive deep into how you can use the principles of the Hero’s Journey to both understand and change the story of your own life.
Annie walks us through the specific techniques she teaches for the art of decision making, and how you can apply these to your life (and choices) moving forward.
