At its core, I organized my 5 day virtual summit about Navigating the Future of Entertainment to help us creatives, artists, and storytellers answer two key questions:
What the hell is happening to our beloved film industry? And how can we shape the future of cinema?
In this episode, I talk with Selena Soo, bestselling author of Rich Relationships and a top publicity strategist who’s helped creatives land features in Forbes, O Magazine, and on national TV. Selena shares how we can build genuine, lasting relationships without burnout or feeling transactional. We dive into her three-step approach to meaningful connection, how to give value sustainably, and why simply validating others can be a powerful way to build trust. If networking has ever felt overwhelming or inauthentic, this conversation offers a refreshing new approach.
Selena Soo is a publicity and marketing strategist for visionary entrepreneurs, experts, and authors who want to reach millions with their message.
She’s helped clients and students get featured in places like O, The Oprah Magazine, Forbes, and Inc., and land interviews on popular podcasts and national TV. Many of Selena’s clients have become industry leaders with 7-figure businesses, raving fan bases, and hundreds of thousands of followers.
Her signature approach comes down to building powerful and long-lasting relationships with influencers and the media in a thoughtful, authentic way.
Selena has been featured in magazines and websites like Forbes, Fast Company, Inc., Business Insider, Entrepreneur, Success, and The Huffington Post. She has been a guest on podcasts like Entrepreneur On Fire, Smart Passive Income, and Mixergy.
Selena’s Website | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter
Selena’s Book: Rich Relationships
Selena’s Book Launch
Zack Arnold: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome once again to our summit all about navigating the future of creative work. And if you have not had the pleasure yet of knowing who Selena Soo is, or being introduced to her work, oh my goodness, are you going to love today? So the short version, and I could spend our entire hour just talking about the accolades and the credits, so I'll do my best to keep it short, but Selena is an award winning business and relationship strategist. For over a decade, you've elevated the world's most important people, their ideas, their messages. You built a seven figure business, helping entrepreneurs, experts, authors. Go from hidden gem to household name. You've been featured in Forbes Business Insider CNBC, Fast Company. I'm running out of breath here, so many things to talk about, and I think I'm pretty convinced that even by the time this interview comes out, or shortly after, you're also going to be New York Times best selling author.
Selena Soo: Oh my goodness. Well, I appreciate that vision that you have for me That's so kind,
Zack Arnold: Yes, and I firmly and completely believe in all of it, because I've seen your ability to both right, because I've had the pleasure of reading your book beforehand, but I've also seen your ability to connect with people and build genuine relationships. And then on top of that, your knowledge of navigating publicity and putting yourself out there. You take those three things together, it's It's inevitable. There's just no way it's not going to happen. And on top of it, you have such an amazing work ethic. It just to me that success now seems inevitable. Oh, thank you so much. Yes, you're more than welcome. So there's way too many things to cover. Of all the areas that you provide value, we're not going to get to probably a 10th of the things that are in my notes, but of the things that I probably want to hit today are number one, just dispelling this notion that we're networking and we have to put ourselves out there. And it's really about building relationships, providing genuine value. And I think many of those that are in my field, or similar fields that consider themselves creatives very introverted. So we're going to get into a lot of those areas, but, but here's actually where I want to start. I'm going to address the elephant in the room. I have no business having you interviewing on this summit right now. When I reached out to you, you even said, I usually don't do this, but Zack, maybe I'll give you 30 minutes, and now you're here giving generous amounts of your time in the middle of a book launch. Why in the world are you doing this?
Selena Soo: I don't remember what you said, but you said something to turn it around, because, you know, like everyone, right, there's only so many hours in a day. And you know, when you think about building rich relationships, part of it is also managing your time and energy. And so I've learned early on that if I say yes to everything, I run myself ragged, and then I can't show up for myself and for the regular relationships in my life. So there's certain things I'm like, an automatic no to so summits, typically. And then I think I told you some of the, you know, more specific reasons why summits are just generally not a fit. And I think that you were able to remove all of my objections, including meeting with me on a weekend, because during the work week, I only have so many hours that I have to meet with team and do other things, and so I run out of time. And so just the fact that, you know, you listened and understood and then suggested something to make it work, I was like, Okay, well, if you're willing to work with me, then I can make it work.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and willing to work with you was an understatement, because I never, ever, ever book podcasts on the weekends. I mean, you can see, like, what's going on behind here. Like, this is my brand. I've had brand experts that have said, Dude, you know, if you really want to make it on YouTube, you got to ditch the whole dad vibe. I'm like, Do you not understand me and my brand at all? Like, this is the brand. But when Selena says, I think I can make it happen on a Sunday, well, I will make it happen on a Sunday, because I know how much immense value you can bring to my audience. So kind. So I want to, I want to give a little bit of background about what led, for many years to what I hope could be the subconscious reason where you said, and by the way, you literally have an email script in your book that says, here's how I politely decline summit requests. And I literally laughed out loud when I saw that script. I'm like, Oh my God, but the we you and I both agree that networking and relationship building, and I'm going to use the term networking sparingly, and we're going to dispel that in a second, right? But what, the way that I see relationship building is a really strategic game of chess. So seven years ago, and I've told this story multiple times to my students, but I've never actually used the person's name, but seven years ago, I saw a live event that I said I really want to go to when it was the forefront event that our mutual, our mutual business mentor, Ramit SETI, he was putting together this event in Chicago. And I said, this sounds great. I would love to go and, you know, meet Ramit and do all these different activities he was doing. But I hate going to live in person events. I just I literally, like, shrivel up. I'm very, very introverted, very much like you. And I said, in order to really make this worth it, there is one person it is my mission to connect with in four days. And that person that I wanted to connect with was you.
Selena Soo: Oh, my goodness. Lucky me, I had no idea
Zack Arnold: exactly so that it wasn't a matter of I was really pushy. I was really trying to get your attention. I just said, If I can just find 45 seconds in between sessions where I can introduce myself, I can share a little bit of value about how your work has inspired and impacted me, which it has you. And I just quickly connected. We were able to start a very casual email relationship. And then I literally use one of your tactics against you, which was that you were putting some Summit, or not a summit. It was like a putting together some pre launch videos for one of your launches. Oh yeah, and you were seeking feedback. And, like, my, my thing is video content, like, I've been a Hollywood filming video editor for 20 plus years. So I literally used to wear tactic against you were when you were connecting with Ramit. You gave him a bunch of feedback on his website. I just threw a ton of feedback at you about pre launch videos and content and story with I wasn't looking for anything in return at the time, but I thought, yeah, I just want to I really feel a genuine connection with you, the work that you're doing, the impact you were having on me. And then as I learned, just as I was going through the book, I think another thing might be that I too, like you, are an FJ, and that's a very, very small percentage of people like that. That must be the energy, right? Yeah. Must be, yeah. So I just, I wanted to point out that for people that are listening saying, Well, why in the world would somebody ever want to respond to me, Little old me. Trust me, there's a way to build a genuine relationship with just about anybody. We're going to get a whole lot more and do a lot of those various strategies and mindsets a little bit later. But here's where I actually want to start. I think you have a really compelling origin story, not just in general, because it's inspiring, but you have a really compelling origin story for people that are really shy and really introverted. Because if I were to look on your website, I would say I would look at those pictures, look at the branding like you are just you're so confident, you're so out there. You've got bright, vibrant colors, you're surrounded by people. But when you get to know Selena, and you're like, ooh, she's actually really shy and introverted like me. So talk to me a little bit more about the Selina Soo origin story?
Selena Soo: Sure. So I got into this world because when I was in my mid 20s, I had a quarter life crisis. And I remember, you know, working at a nonprofit. I was making about $40,000 a year, which in New York City is not a ton of money. And I was, you know, trying to get by, and I remember, you know, feeling depressed, and my mom coming all the way from Vancouver to New York to be by my side because I was having trouble eating, getting that out of bed in the morning, going to work. And I started to ask friends, do you know anyone that can help me? Because I just can't keep living this way. And that's when I learned about this life coach. Her name's Jen Mack, and I started going to these women's circles at her home and meeting with other like minded people pouring into all these books. And you know, I started to realize that when people are struggling and suffering, they're not just looking for information. They are looking for inspiration. And I felt like there was nothing more inspiring than a role model, someone who embodies a message of possibility and hope. And I would ask my friends, you know, have you heard about this person and that person? Because their work, their ideas, is changing my life, and my friends were like, I have no idea who you're talking about, Selena. And so that's really what when it dawned on me that sometimes the people that had the most powerful message, the most life changing story, they can still be that best kept secret. And so I became really committed to elevating those people. And so that's how I got into the world of publicity. Because to me, publicity is a type of rich relationship that can really open up doors for people. I wanted others to take them seriously, and I wanted to find ways to amplify the work, you know, basically the world's most important people, ideas and messages, which is what I do today. So that's kind of how I fell into it. And Zack, you know, you're an INFJ so we, you know, have a lot in common with INFJs. They're very mission driven. So when they're out there in the spotlight and they're creating and producing and sharing their work and their ideas with others. It's not coming from a Oh, look at me, place like I want all the attention on me. It's coming from I just so believe in this, and this aligns with my values, and I want to help people, and that's a driving force that puts us out there.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, it actually reminds me again, of the end of the forefront event where Ramit had said, Does anybody want to stand up and share a story or something that you've learned and like, I swear to God, my heart was going to explode out of my chest, but I'm like, I'm gonna stand up and I'm gonna say something. So I get up, I raised my hand, and I had shared how I really, really enjoyed being surrounded by like minded peers that too, that they too, were really into, how do I build a business that has positive impact. It's not just about how many zeros can I create, and I want to create these, you know, paid ad funnels, and optimize this, that and the other thing, but that, I also shared that it was really difficult for me to show up in person and have all these conversations because I was very introverted. I had multiple people that came up to me afterwards, and they're like, you're introverted. Like. You were working the room like crazy. You were so friendly, and I enjoyed this and that. And as you know, I'm also one of the recurring student case studies in a lot of you know, release work, and I even have an entire module in his new earnable program. That's all about my early case study. But people were shocked that I was an introvert. And I always say, ask my wife. I am incredibly introverted. But again, this idea of I put myself out there, not because it's about me, it's because it's about everybody else. And when I make it about everybody else, then I can do the podcast, then I can write the article, then I can show up and speak on a stage. But if it's about me, I just, I can't do it like it just I literally makes me want to shrivel up inside.
Selena Soo: I get it. I'm the same, yeah, and that's,
Zack Arnold: and we're gonna, we're gonna dig into that a lot more when we talk about how we actually start to build these relationships, some of the strategies and the tactics and otherwise. One other quick thing that I want to say, that I actually didn't know about you until I read your book, is you said that you actually grew up in Hong Kong in a fairly affluent family around affluent people, and I found that really interesting, because I've always known your origin story as living in New York, $40,000 a year, working at a nonprofit. It says a lot about your character that you were in that situation and you chose to go that route rather than you probably could have had a much easier life. Why did you make that choice to decide to really do this on your own, even when it was hard?
Selena Soo: Yeah, I think for me, and like for many people, you know, it's really important to do work that matters to us, so money can matter, but it's secondary. And I think growing up amongst people that had so much wealth, I realized that money doesn't equal happiness, and I wanted to do work that made me feel alive. And at the time, it was the nonprofit work that I was doing.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, so again, I really think that that just continues to reinforce all of my intuitions many years ago, that if there's somebody that I want to hitch my wagon to to learn more about, how do I build relationships? How do I do publicity? And even though you may not have directly facilitated the introductions, if people look at my byline and it says featured in Forbes Huffington Post, The Hollywood Reporter, Selena is kind of the, the mastermind behind some of that and all the course materials that I've learned from you. So
Selena Soo: So my gosh, I love it so much. And I didn't realize that you had read my book. I'm like, I'm so excited, because it's definitely my, I don't know, greatest life work. You know, it's my biggest contribution. So wow, I am so excited to continue this discussion.
Zack Arnold: Yes, as am I. So where I want to get into now is I want to start dispelling this idea that we are quote, unquote networking, and we got to put ourselves out there. So let's just start with some some baseline mindset, all about how you approach networking versus relationship building, and then how you define what is a rich relationship, because it's literally the title of your book.
Selena Soo: Yeah, I mean, so let's just start with what is a rich relationship. So a rich relationship is one that massively enriches the quality of your life, and they have three core characteristics. So characteristic, number one is that rich relationships create abundance for you, whether directly or indirectly. Right. Financial abundance might look like somebody that really believes in your work. It could be a raving fan, it could be a happy client, it could be referral partner, and they're sending ideal clients your way. It could even be someone who is a therapist or a confidant or a coach and who gets you through these emotionally hard times and gives you the confidence to go out and do your best work. So one way or another, rich relationships are connected to abundance in your business. Number two, rich relationships are with people that are connected to your biggest goals and dreams in one way or another. Whether they are someone that can help you reach that goal or dream faster, maybe they can introduce you to a person. Maybe they have done it themselves, but they are connected to where you are heading. And last but not least, rich relationships are with people who really inspire you to be the best version of yourself. Maybe they are someone where you see a piece of yourself in them. You really respect how they do business and life. Rich relationships related to that are with people who have high integrity and you feel safe and you trust them. So those are the core characteristics of rich relationships.
Zack Arnold: So one of the many, many things that I really loved about your book is that I love me some frameworks. And, my goodness, do you love frameworks too? Because you're like, here are the 10 types of rich relationships. Here are the six circles of connection. These are the three types of givers. And like, oh boy. Do you know how to reach the center of my heart? Because I do. I do the exact same thing with the way that I teach networking and if I were to, and this is something that's been on my laundry list for a while, and I'd even and I've even started outlining, if I were to write a book, it's actually fairly close to what you put together, but I swear I haven't been looking over your shoulder, but I'm like, this is kind of all the same things I'm doing with my students, where I don't have 10 types of rich relationships, but I break it down to the different types of approaches where you're approaching them. As a peer, as an expert, as a mentor, as an advocate, right, like as a gatekeeper. And I'm like, my goodness, and then I talk about using the concentric circles approach and understanding how to connect with somebody, to connect with somebody else, and how they fit into your own life. So it's almost like you and I are sharing the same collective consciousness. It was, it was quite eerie when I was digging into all this. So I love that. So having said that, going back to this idea of the what a rich relationship is, the first thing that I'm thinking is that, well, if it's all about my abundance and it's all about my goals and about them inspiring me, if I'm an introvert, no no no, no, no, no, because when it's about me, I'm bothering them. And why in the world would they want to help me? And I'm a big believer that I always want to take a value driven approach, and I know that you do, too. And this is one of those big objections that I hear from my students all the time, is, why in the world would I reach out to somebody they just know that I'm just looking for a job or a connection or an investment or whatever it might be. So how do we overcome this objection and really turn it into making it a mutually beneficial rich relationship,
Selena Soo: Absolutely. So I would say that when it comes to building rich relationships, the way that you're going to be successful is showing up as a giver. But there are different kinds of givers that I talk about in the book. So there's three types. The first is the indiscriminate giver. So that is someone that Whenever someone asks them for something, they say yes, and oftentimes they're coming from a place of, I need to please the other person. I need to do these things to show them worthy. And what happens is they are depleted, and sometimes they even get resentful at the people who they chose to support. Number two type of giver is a transactional giver. So this is the kind of person who's like, well, I'm going to give to give to this person if I know that, I'm going to get this in return. And you know, the thing is, we can have transactions in business. That's fine, but when it comes to giving, giving should come from, you know, a place of, you know, true generosity. And then there's the rich giver. And the rich giver is someone who purposefully pours into people. They understand that they don't have time to help every single person under the sun. But there are certain people where there is that win, win energy. Where is there's that feeling of abundance, there is that good, you know, well, where they really want to see that person win. And so they pour specifically into those kinds of people. And it's important, because the reality is, you only have so much time in a day. And when you're a rich giver, you also create room to be a rich receiver. And so when we're thinking about receiving from our rich relationships, you know, I recommend that people give first before they ever ask for anything in return.
Zack Arnold: And I would go even further, give first with no expectation that there will be a return. There might be it's okay at some point to ask for that reciprocal value in return, but you have to be okay with I'm going to give to them, and maybe nothing ever comes back from it. But I've had a positive impact, and I've left the world slightly better than it was for this person. That's that's hard for people?
Selena Soo: Yeah, no, it is hard for people, and I think it's a nuanced thing, because I really believe that when we share our gifts with others and make an impact in people's lives, it will come back around, but not always from the same person. So instead of thinking about, I'm, you know, giving to one person, like I'm giving actually at why in return, rather, you're just investing into your network as a whole. And when you are someone that shows up with so much generosity, and it's really a lifestyle, people are going to want to support you and just be grateful that you are in their world.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and this idea of investment, I think, is a really, really important point that you bring up in your book, and this is where we come back to again, sharing the same collective consciousness. Because I always talk about networking as a three dimensional game of chess is not a game of checkers. And if your inbox looks anything like mine, most people are playing Go Fish, and they're not even very good at it, right? So talk to me a little bit more about this idea of it's really a long term investment, and you have some very, very hard numbers that show where the investment has been a very good return for you.
Selena Soo: Yeah, so long term investment. Well, one person that comes to mind is my friend, Laura Bell Gray, and she is a well known copywriting expert, but she was tired of being known as so and so's copywriter, right, always in relation to the famous person that she was supporting, and wanted to make a name for herself. And so one of the things I did was I showed her how to get publicity. I helped her craft her story ideas. I made some connections and really supported her on that journey, which led to her being featured in Forbes Business Insider l magazine. And she just became such a fan of my work and started telling people about it, and I made her an official affiliate partner. Well over several years, she has sent over a million dollars into my business, and I also have a referral program, so she has, you know, made hundreds of 1000s of dollars from sharing my name with other people. So that's a way in which, like, a relationship can really be a win win. And you don't always know when you help someone is thinking to come back around to you, but if it is something that you're doing consistently. Me, you're creating a lot of opportunity, you know, for yourself or other people to pour back into you.
Zack Arnold: And my assumption is that it didn't start with Hi. My name is Selena. I just wanted to tell you that these are the following skills that I have to offer. My resume and website are attached for your reference. I hope that you can give me consideration or pass me off to somebody that could consider me. And then they replied, and they brought seven figures your way. Something tells me it didn't work that way.
Selena Soo: Yeah, no, it just happened as a relationship, organically and over time. You know, other things happened, right? When it comes to building relationships, it's really about building the relationship first, getting to know the person, and then business comes second.
Zack Arnold: Yeah. And one of the core values. And this is one of the other things that I love about your approach so much, is it's a value driven and purpose driven approach to outreach, but one of the most important core values is patience. Yeah, to be patient with this approach, because this does not happen overnight. Totally. Yeah. So, having said that, I want to frame this as follows, most likely, and I don't know this for certain, but I'm going to assume there's a high percentage of people that are listening to this today, that are watching this today, that whether they chose it or not, are in the middle of a midlife existential crisis, and they're realizing whether it's because of changing industries, changing technology, changing audience habits, a lot of the people that were At least in my current industry, work in Hollywood, storytelling, everything is changing. I don't believe that there's any area that's uncertain that's certain right now, like uncertainty is the name of the game across all industries. Yeah, and I hope I have done my best throughout the summit to convince people that they're not starting over, that they have a lifetime of skills, work experience, life, experiences, valuable knowledge, passions and otherwise. And when you start to find the overlap in the intersections of those things, you can really find ways to provide value to other people. However, when you're in the process of doing a significant career pivot, sometimes you do have to start over with building your network, right? There's just, there's just no way around it. When I decided years ago that I wanted to go from top level a list Hollywood film and TV editor, working on the world's number one shows, to Well, I want to learn how to be a career coach, and I want to learn how to be a podcaster. And now I'm in the transition of I want to learn how to be an author. None of my network was relevant. None of it. It's like, yeah, I gotta, I gotta start from scratch. So let's help people from square one. How do we get them started with identifying, where do I even begin with building a brand new network?
Selena Soo: Yeah, so I first step is, you know, getting clear on what the goals are. So maybe you're starting over and you're looking for career direction, so that is your goal, right, to figure out, where do I direct my energies to, what career do I want to be in? And then so you make a list of what types of people would be most helpful to connect with. And so in the book rich relationships, you talk about 10 different types of relationships that can be helpful. You know, for example, there are mentors, there are promoters. There are super fans. There are super connectors, right? So, you know, a super connector is someone when you mention what you need automatically, they think of like five different people they could connect you to. That's a really helpful person to know. And super connectors tend to have trust with the people that they connect to each other. So there's that, and sometimes it's a mentor who can support you through that transition, whether it is a career coach or someone in the industry in which you're looking to enter. It could be a super fan, someone who is one of your biggest believers and is there for you no matter what, and they're like, I know you got this and anything you need, I'm here. It could be a confidant who is someone that you can share the good, bad, messy and ugly with, and they're just always there with you through every up and down. And so, you know, get clear on your goals. Get clear on who are the kinds of people that can help you and then reach out to them. And there's different ways to reach out to them. You know, I remember when I was early on in my business, I organized a focus group because I was looking for direction, and I was working with a couple clients one on one, but I knew that I wanted to make a much bigger impact, and so I invited Ramit Sethi, and, you know, I said to him, Hey, I'm looking to organize a focus group because I'm trying to get clear on, you know, what direction I go in, and I can organize a focus group around your schedule, right? And then once I locked him in, then I invited a couple more people, and would mention, oh, you know, Ramit is going to be there, Derek Halpern is going to be there. And, you know, sometimes it does make a difference when you're hosting an event to have one or two anchor names so people understand like, Oh, these are all the people that are coming together. You know, had pizza for everyone. And, yeah, I shared, you know, what my dream was, to support more people in a high impact way, a one to many way, versus one to one. And Ramit was like, well, the number one thing is you need to build. Your email list. And he said, Who do you know? Who has who can help you with that? Who knows more about email list building than you? And I said, every, every person. And he said, Selena, why have you never asked me to guest posts for my website? I think your writing is amazing. And I was just flabbergasted, because I thought that that would be something that maybe I would have a chance to do, like, 10 years from now. And so I said, okay, Ruby, can I write for your podcast? And he said, No, you can't, or for your website. And he was like, No, you can't. And he was like, I'm not going to do it as a favor. I'm going to do it because you can add value to my audience, but you need to send me a proper pitch. And when you send me a proper pitch, I'll review it, and I'll let you know for sure. So I was like, okay, and it actually took me a couple months before I mustered the courage to put the pitch together, even when I did his team and worked back and forth with me. But eventually we landed on something, and I wrote this great guest post, and at the time, I mean, ramits audience has grown so much that it was still massive. He had 215,000 people on his newsletter list, and when he sent the email out, it was like Christmas, because all these people were discovering me. There were 1000 people from the email list that signed up pretty much right away. I got on the radar of Adam Grant. Because of that, he tweeted my article, and I got an alert, and I was like, Adam, I don't know if you know, you're my favorite author. And I sent him a link to an interview that I did, and I listed, you know, give and take as my favorite book. And so, yeah, I got to know him that way. I let him know that was hosting these media dinner parties in New York with influencers and entrepreneurs and, you know, media professionals. And he, I was like, Do you know anyone? And so he connected me with someone that was, you know, great, a great guest for the party. And then, actually, you know, more recently, because Adam, I mean, he was always, you know, doing very significant work, but he's definitely blown up even more, you know, like, 12 years later, and I was looking to reconnect with him, and I actually reached out to my friend Dori Clark, because they're both professors. He's a professor at Wharton, she's a professor at Duke. And I was like, Dori, you know, I'm wondering if you would be willing to, you know, let Adam know about my book, because, you know, I know that you've read the book and endorsed the book, and I would love to get it on his radar. Give and Take has really shaped me and really shaped many of the ideas and frameworks inside the book, and I would just love to get it on his radar. And so she reached out, but I feel like I'm sharing multiple different things. I think I just, I got excited, but basically, what it comes down to is, when you're pivoting, you know, you have to lean on your network, and you have to ask them for support, and specifically say, like, Hey, I would love to get some input, get some advice from you. But typically it works even better when you've already been building the relationship with them. So that would be like the activate part of networking. So really, there's build, nurture and activate. And you have to establish the relationship. First. You have to nurture it. And the best way to nurture is to be a giver and be engaged in their life in some way, big, small, anything in between. And then you have to make the ask. And so, you know, I shared, well, I shared a few different asks, the asks of, you know, asking Ramit to come to the focus group, and then asking him to guest post, and then later asking Dory Clark to reintroduce me to Adam Grant. So you know, with relationship building and with networking, if you never make an ask, you're really limiting the riches that can be poured into you. Because the reality is, when you built goodwill with someone, they know that you're excellent at your work, you've got great personal character. They care about you. People do want to help you. You just have to ask in the right way.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, couldn't agree with all that more. And I have a feeling that behind the scenes, you and I probably have some Adam Grant stories and conversations, because he, too, has been on my radar for years. The two people that are the most influential with all the work that I do in helping introverts and creatives network and build relationships, Selena Soo and Adam, Grant and give and take was a game changer, and because of that, reached out and built a relationship with Adam, just like I reached out to build a relationship with you. So we probably have some interesting stories behind the scenes, but I'll leave that for off the record, because I want to make sure we stick to the topic at hand. But here's what I really want to emphasize, times about 100 and this is where I think the way that I teach this and the way that you teach this are going to be so overlapping and complimentary. I have a multitude of workshops that I teach on networking, and I love me some keynote slides, and I've lost count, but I have give or take about 800 slides between my different networking workshops. I always tell I always tell my students, there's one slide, if there's one slide that you're going to print out 27 by 40 as a poster and put it above your workstation. I always tell them, It's not that. It's. That people don't want to help you. It's that they don't know how to help you.
Selena Soo: That's a good point, right? Yeah, ask, or if you are making the ask, you're not, they may not be doing it well,
Zack Arnold: Exactly. So people fumble on the ass because they don't know what they're asking for. Usually it's, I don't even know who I should be reaching out to. But then when they identify somebody like, Oh, I love this person's work, this writer, this editor, this director, this, you know, entrepreneur, this podcaster, this author, but then it's like, what, I'm such a big fan of your work. I love your book. It's amazing. I don't know what I'm supposed to be asking, right? And I always say that, by and large, people want to help you, but you have to make it clear how to help you, and especially when reaching out to peers, when reaching out to mentors or experts. And I always define expert in quotes, saying that it's whomever is doing now what you want to be doing next. So if I want to write a best selling book about how to network and build relationships, you're literally the world's expert on my problems, right? Because you're achieving those things a few years ahead of me. And by and large, most people out there are good people, and they want to help, but you have to be really clear on how in the world they can help you. So let's give people just some of the basic strategies and tactics for the approach, right? Because I think for most people listening, it's not how do I nurture these really valuable, rich relationships? It's where do I even get started? And how do I connect with strangers and build my circle of mentors or experts or even peers. So let's just start with the approach. How do we start by approaching people
Selena Soo: To ask for help. Okay, so first step is you've got to identify who you want to ask, and then you have, I to get clear on what you want to ask them for, and you generally don't want to make really big asks. You know, from the get go, and it needs to be an asset is going to be easy for them, right? Another thing that you want to keep in mind is that you want to give them an easy out so they don't feel bad if they say no. So you want to use language that is light hearted and doesn't have heavy expectations. And then, you know, it's important to be really clear and specific about what you need, and just make it easy for them to say yes. So, oh, and the other thing I like to do is also express gratitude in the beginning, right? It reinforces, you know, the kind of relationship that you have with someone. So, for example, you know, with Dori Clark, I, you know, said to her, you know, hey, Dori, you know, first of all, I just want to thank you so much for just all of your support with the book. You've just been such an amazing advocate. I love our conversations, and so grateful for the book endorsement you gave me, right? So like starting off by showing someone Hey, I recognize and appreciate what you've done for me, and I just value our relationship. That puts things on a high note. And then the next thing you want to do is make your request. And so, as I was saying, kind of keep it light hearted or not, like with heavy expectations. So there's different ways you could say it. You could say, Hey, I wanted to run a bot, run an idea by you. You could say, you know, I know this could be a long shot, but I thought I would just ask, or, you know, I'm curious if you would ever consider right? I'm not saying like, hey, Dory, I want you to do this for me. I'm saying, Hey, I was wondering, you know, I wanted to run this idea by right, and then you say what it is. So in my case, you know, with this book, one of my big dreams is to get it in the hands of Adam Grant, because his book has been so influential, and I would love to send him a copy, but I know that will be so much more impactful if he heard from you, as one of his colleagues who has also read and endorsed the book, you know, would you so then I make the request, you know, Would you be open to sending an email to Adam? And to make it easy for you, I'm happy to draft something, you know, if you would like, like, let me know. And you know. And then I also said, like, you know, and if you're not able to like, you know, all good, you've already done so much. But I just wanted to, you know, put it out there, right? So it kind of like hits all the nails on the head. And then Dory got back to me. She's like, yes, yeah, I would love to send it to Adam. And that would be great if you could put something together for me to send him. And then she sent it off to him. And then she circled back a few days later, and she's like, Adam, you know, would love to get a copy, digital copy, and so I sent it over to him. And then, you know, he was really warm, and he did say, you know, I do have, like, a massive number of books. I'm going to do my best to get to it. But I think that's also a way of being like, you know, because nobody wants to have these, I don't know, over promise, right? So he has the book in his hands or on his laptop, so I'm excited for him to read it, but, yeah, basically, that's how I always do ask in a very kind of light touch way and make it super easy for the other person.
Zack Arnold: I love that I want to dig even a little bit deeper into some. Thing that I think is so important and once again, collective conscious, this idea that we always want to lead with value. I always tell my students, if you're going to break this down to basic math, there's got to be more value than the ask. We always want to make sure that we're givers before we're takers, right? But what one of the challenges is people say, the hell does that mean providing value? Like, how do I provide value? And people vastly overthink it. Well, maybe I can, you know, be their assistant for a few days, or I can do their laundry and mow their lawn. It's like, no, no, you're overthinking it. And what I always tell them is that providing value for somebody, especially someone that does work that they put out into the world, creative work or otherwise. If you simply validate their life choices and you say this thing impacted me, you're usually going to get an email response. It's that simple. So help me convey in a much simpler way how you can provide value when it's a lot easier than people think.
Selena Soo: Absolutely so you know, if you're looking to reach out to an entrepreneur, creator, service provider, right, they've dedicated their life to a particular line of work. So even as you were saying, just validating them, saying, you know, I read your book, you know, the story that you told about XYZ, moved me to tears. Thank you so much. Or, I love your recent webinar. This was my favorite story. This was my favorite tip. I took XYZ action and got this result. I can't thank you enough, right? Because a lot of people might say, Oh, great work, great post, great book, but it's not specific. And when you get really specific, people feel seen. And it's also great market research, because when we produce work, we never know how it's going to land for people or what really resonates. So it's actually really valuable when I think about, you know, the people that have supported me with my book, and, you know, there have been a lot, but I would say some of the people that I really appreciate the most are people that read the book cover to cover, and they gave me, like, very detailed like, line by line feedback of places where it could be strengthened. Because once that work is as strong as it can be, then it's out into the world, right? And hopefully in the hands of 1000s, 10s of 1000s, or, who knows, maybe one day, millions of people, right? And so you don't need a lot of power and influence, or, you know, whatever it is to give that kind of feedback, but by being someone that genuinely is passionate about their work, and letting them know what resonates like, even if someone didn't give me feedback on how to improve the book, but if they like, highlighted, like, in my mind, these are, like, the five best stories, I'd be like, Oh my gosh. Like, thank you so much, right? So that. I mean, there's many different ways that you can make a difference, but one of them is just like, letting people know that you see them and that you value them.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I couldn't agree more, and I realized that I'm a little bit late to the party on this one. But if you're assembling your shortlist of people that you want to read stuff word for word and give you valuable, detailed instructional feedback, put me on that short list, because I love doing that kind of stuff for the right people. So I missed about this time, but I would, I would love to be able to help you in that way in the future.
Selena Soo: So I have a couple of go to people that I always ask, because they're just so good with their feedback. But okay, I'm going to add you on the short
Zack Arnold: and I know that you have editors, and you have a whole team, so I'm not trying to interject myself into that world, but if you're just looking for that extra little nudge or an outside perspective, put me on that shortlist. I'm happy to help. So I'm going to throw out one very quick tactical tip that it was just kind of one of those, like, what I would call a Mic drop. And I've spent so much time teaching my students how to write value driven subject lines, because I'm sure your inbox is even 10 times worse than mine, but I literally get have time so I can take you to coffee and pick your brain. Question mark. Question mark, like, that's the bar that most people need to jump over. And I workshop endlessly how to write value driven subject lines, and I'm just gonna drop here what I think is probably the best subject line I've ever heard from you. Here's how your work has impacted my life. Done like I don't know if I've ever read a better email subject line than that one. It's so simple and it's so perfect. There's no way somebody's not going to open that message.
Selena Soo: That's so true. There's no way
Zack Arnold: Now you have to earn the response by doing the things we talked about, by providing more value, making it clear how this person can help you, having a really clear and simple ask, not expecting too much. But there is no way that subject line is not getting open. That's one of the best subject lines I've ever read. So true, so very nicely done. So having said that, the next area that I want to go to is one that is very, very near and dear to my heart, and I've teased it a little bit, and I know that it's near and dear to yours, and that's anybody that is listening, that is not just somebody that does creative work for a living, but they identify as a creative they're probably introverted, not 100% chance, but more often than not, they're gonna be introverted. They're probably sensitive, they're probably more emotionally driven than a lot of other people are. Right? Yeah, and one of the things that I love about your book the most is that it's not you need to become an extrovert, right? Here are all the best networking strategies I. Been saying for a long time that I actually believe that introverts are more effective networkers than outroverts. They just don't know how to harness those superpowers. And I feel like you, you're very much on that same same wavelength. So rather than tactics and strategies, let's talk to all the introverts and tell them you have no idea the powers that you possess for relationship building.
Selena Soo: It's so true, I think that we can all be successful at relationship building, whether we're an introvert, an extrovert, an ambivert, or anywhere in between, but it's really about understanding ourselves and our superpowers. But one of the things that makes introverts so effective is that they you know, they think before they speak. They really take things in very deeply, and so they have the ability to be so thoughtful, right? But one thing about introverts is they don't always express what they feel. And so it's like you could think, oh my gosh, I really appreciate that person so much. They're so amazing. But if you keep it to yourself and you don't actually let them know, then you know you're not creating the impact that you could on their in their life. But, you know, a big part of building rich relationships and the way that I teach people is being intentional, intentional about who you pour into, intentional about what you get, intentional about, you know, how you support them. And so introverts are great at that. You know, I'm someone who, if you see me at a party, I'm not going to be in the center of the room cracking jokes, telling people a story. I'm going to be the person in the corner having a conversation with one person, or I might be the person running the party. Because I think as introverts, we like to create our own spaces that feel comfortable and good to us. But I just want people to know that you don't have to be a social butterfly at all. To be successful at building really meaningful relationships. And then the other big idea I do want to share, which is one of the core ideas in the book, it's that one rich relationship is more valuable than 100 casual connections. So one rich relationship is more valuable than 100 casual connections. There's a lot of amazing people out there in the world, but there are going to be people that show up for you, that care about you more, and where there's natural, win, win, synergy and abundance and just feels good to be around them. It feels easy. You really want to tune into who are those people and pour into them. Because when I think about my own business, I've had like, three different rich relationships that have, you know, been responsible for over a million dollars in revenue. I have a mentor that I've sent over a million dollars this person's way. I have, you know, my friend Laura Belgrave, who sent over a million dollars. And then I also have another mentor who helped me create over a million dollars through the ideas that she shared, or actually multiple mentors who have done that, and so, you know, the truth is, even one relationship can create a million dollars, maybe not overnight, but over the course of several years. Absolutely,
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I've, I can't say that I've seen the the seven figure returns quite yet on the other relationships that I'm building. But again, it's a game of chess, not a game of checkers. But going back to these three types of givers, I'm not the transactional giver. I'm not the Well, here's my spreadsheet, and here's the column of the revenue that I've generated because of this person, but here's the column of the revenue that I've helped generate. So now, if I put in a formula, I can see that there's a disparity. And hold on a second, I've helped them generate more revenue than they've helped generate for me, therefore, I must ask for more things from them, right? That's the mind of the transactional giver. If we're talking about, you know, the giver, the give and take framework from Adam Grant's book, like that would be the matcher, right? There's the givers, the takers, the matchers, the quid pro quos. I just don't see it that way. I really believe that if I'm going to reach out to somebody and provide them that genuine value. The world is in some way going to bring that back in return, because our energies just match up. But I'm not keeping score, right, right? But one of the, one of the pitfalls that I know a lot of my students fall into, and even I have a tendency to do this as well. And this is probably one of those you could ask Adam Grant, and he'd be like, yeah, Zack has a tendency to fall into this trap. You provide so much value that you end up gushing and fanboying or fan girling, right? So how do you find the fine line between, I'm just going to ask you for stuff, versus I want to, I want to make your day brighter with my email, versus, oh my god, I just embarrassed myself, and they're never going to respond to me.
Selena Soo: Sure, that's a good question. So I think that when sometimes people give so much, it can make the other person uncomfortable. Because in relationships, it's natural that when someone gives to someone, someone naturally wants to give back in some way, right? And so if someone sends you like, you know, an email with 27 paragraphs like you feel we can feel foolish like writing back a three sentence email, but yet, the person that you're reaching out to that might be all they have capacity for, and so it might just be like, I don't know if I can engage in this dynamic, because it's like so much, and I can't come anywhere near to match them, not that we have to match someone exactly, but people don't generally feel good. About being in situations where there's like a massive imbalance, and so that's just something to keep in mind. We want to be careful not to come across as love bombing. And there are some people that sometimes like you know they love you so much and there's so much intensity, and then all of a sudden they turn around and they hate you just as passionately. And I've definitely, you know, I mean, a couple of times, like, over the course of my career, I've had people come on so strong, and when I haven't been able to meet them at that level of engagement, you know, they get angry and and it kind of scares people,
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I want to go even a little bit further down that road when it comes to providing that value that's kind of the sweet spot and really verifying somebody's life's choices. There are multiple times and maybe you can attest to this as well, where in deciding to make this career pivot from I've got a stable career. I'm a specialist. I had this one skill, I'm working at a very high level, and Holly was an editor. Realizing that was so in misalignment with all my values as a husband and a father, I wanted to make this pivot really fucking hard, like trying to create a podcast and build an audience and start a newsletter and build an email newsletter list, and then have students, and then do coaching. There's so many things that go into this that when you just did one job and did one thing, and now you're trying to diversify all these skills and interests. There are so many times that I wanted to quit, and at least three times I can remember where I said, this just doesn't work. Like I give up, I'm done. It was an email that changed everything. It was somebody, some random listener, reader, follower, where they would say, because of, you know, you sharing your story or the story that was, story that was shared on your podcast, like this made this positive difference, right? Yeah, and those hit and they hit hard. I've literally kept my business going because of outreach emails that just show gratitude.
Selena Soo: That's good, yeah?
Zack Arnold: I mean, some of them literally brought me to tears. I'm like, Well, I can't quit now, because Bob in North Dakota, or whoever it is, like, I know this is again, it goes back to being mission driven, right? Yeah, I can't quit on the mission because I see it's making a difference, but I can't speak for you, but it's so easy to get lost in the data, to get lost in, well, what, what's, what's the conversion rate percentage versus what are the number of followers or subscribers? And then you realize every single one of those numbers, it's a real person on the other side of that, right and one so again, I just say this to emphasize, if you're listening to this or watching it and you're saying, Well, I would never reach out to this person and say I loved their book or I loved their movie or loved their show, or I loved their quilting, course, whatever it is, like, trust me, they need to hear these things. Just don't let's in return,
Selena Soo: Yeah, I mean, I think even better, if you can show gratitude in public, because then you're doing two things, you're creating more visibility for their work, and and then they can also, just like, you know, reshare, retweet, you know, or leave a comment under what you've created. But if people are have are putting creative work out into the world is because they want other people to see it. So there's a way that you can amplify it and express gratitude. There's definitely a lot of power in that.
Zack Arnold: So the last thing that I want to bring up before we get to our wrap up question, and I bring this up near the end, because this could easily be an entire part two, and I don't want to go down this giant rabbit hole for either of our six, because I want to be respectful of your time. But I think what really hit me the most in your book, that I respected so much is that it wasn't just another book about networking strategies, relationship building frameworks. There's so many of those, and they're great, yeah, but it was the part where you shared your personal story with your toxic relationship, and how you said, and I literally am going to quote this, because this was just one of those. I got to stop. It's you said, few, perhaps zero, books on business networking talk about relationship patterns. But this is all something that we need to bring attention to, because nobody reaches adulthood unscathed. You might not have experienced abuse, and I truly hope that that's the case, but nonetheless, we all have wounds, and we all have healing to do, and that in that will completely inform the way that we build these professional relationships. So again, I don't want to open a giant can of worms, because I want to be respectful of your time, but people need to understand the kind of emotion and the kind of storytelling that you bring to this. This is not another book about networking,
Selena Soo: Absolutely. I mean, it's a lot of things. It is a business book, it's a networking book, it's also a personal development book. It's a book about understanding yourself better and taking care of yourself. I mean, it's all the things, because it's all connected,
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and the very, very seldom, if any, networking books. Am I aware? That takes such a personal, emotional, holistic approach, as opposed to hear all the techniques that work for networking, super connecting, 10x in your revenue, like, I'm just, I'm so done with that world. And you just, you bring such a more personal, just kind of emotional approach that I think is perfectly suited for those that are a little bit shyer, a little bit more introverted. But they it's not that they want to be alone. They just want to be alone together with other like minded people. Exactly. So last area that I want to go to very, very quickly before we wrap up this job market for creatives is just absolutely awful. It's just really discouraging. Lot of people are losing hope. What is one move, whether it's a publicity move, outreach, relationship building, what do you think is the move, or the few most important moves that people need to be making right now, just to build a little momentum and feel like there's hope?
Selena Soo: I would say the biggest thing is to show up in the right rooms. And so there's a story in my book about Joanna, and she was a graphic designer, and she took the initiative to build a relationship with me. You know, she wrote me emails. We started conversing. And, you know, eventually, I mentioned to her that my graphic design well, because she had basically offered her skills for free. She said that she wanted to contribute in some way, and if I had any projects where I could use a graphic designer, she would love for me to keep her in mind, and she would be happy to do it without charge, and I had seen the quality of her work. I'm forgetting the details. I knew that she did good work. I could tell that she was on those really responsible and professional, and I already had a graphic designer, but something came up where they couldn't meet a deadline. And then I just reached out to her, like, you know what? Actually, I could use some help right now, if you're willing. And so, you know, she saved the day, and it was just, you know, so appreciated and and then, I think, a few months later, I mentioned, I posted on Facebook that I was hosting a publicity mastermind in New York City, and I was looking for a volunteer to be by my side, to support me with working with my to support me with, you know, taking care of my VIP clients and Getting ready for these, you know, big parties I was putting together, and Joanna emailed me saying that she would love to be considered for the volunteer position. The only thing is that she was in London and I was in New York, so I thought, oh my gosh, there's no way. I can't accept this. But she said to me, you know, I'm happy about a friend that I can stay with, and it would be, you know, such an honor, and something my gut told me, like, yeah, say yes to her, because I had an existing relationship with her, and there was trust. I saw the professionalism and how she went above and beyond. And so it was a really great experience. You know, I had all my VIP clients in a room. I introduced them to Joanna, and at the end of the second day of the retreat, I put her portfolio up on the big screen TV. And I'm like, you know, by the way, Joanna is not just someone who supports my work and helps with this event, but she's a very talented graphic designer. And so if you or anyone you know, needs that, these kind of services definitely keep Joanna in mind. And then at my parties, you know, I had Ramit there, Derek Halpern Lewis, Howes. And you know, Joanna had poured so much into me that I said to her, you know, for the party, I don't want you to support as my assistant. I just want you to come as a regular guest, like I want you to be a part of this party. And I introduced her to everybody, you know, as a graphic designer, and she built those relationships. She followed up, she stayed in touch. And, you know, months later she had Lewis Howes and Derek Halpern and many other people become clients. And so on the one hand, you could be well, like, Isn't Joanna crazy? But the other thing is, like, my mastermind cost $24,000 right? So you can either pay to be in my mastermind to get those experiences, or, in her case, she offered value, which was value that I needed, and she didn't have to pay that amount to be in the room, and we developed like a relationship. And, you know, she walked away, you know, over time with clients, and now she has a seven figure business. So I'm not saying you should do those specific things. You can pay to be in certain rooms, you can volunteer to be in certain rooms. Some rooms are free, but you got to show up, yeah, and be seen, right?
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think that that reminds me of a quote that I just in my own headspace, assumed that I came up with myself and now that I read the same quote in your book, almost word for word osmosis. Must have read it somewhere at some point, but it was that quote that the quality of your life is dictated by the quality of your relationships, yeah, and it really is, and it's just all about who you're surrounding yourself with, and, like you said, making sure that you're in the right rooms and you're surrounded by. The right people that know your goals, where they want to help you with them, and you want to help them with theirs in return. So I've covered about 4% of everything that I have in my document today, and all the wonderful things you and I could talk about, but I promise to be very conscious of your time, and we'll be respectful of it. So we're going to wrap it up here, but I want to make sure that everybody is aware of rich relationship book.com. You have been very kind to be willing to share the first, not one, not two, not even three, but four chapters of your book which are invaluable, as well as your rich relationship scripts. So before we leave people, what are the rich relationship scripts?
Selena Soo: Absolutely so when it comes to building relationships, it is about knowing the right words to use. And so I have a bundle of over 20 scripts that are featured throughout the book, because when people read the book, they're like, Oh, it's so great. And my favorite part was the scripts. I wish you could put them all in one place, and so I did that. And so these are all kinds of scripts from you know, how to reach out to someone, make a positive impression, how to add value, how to set boundaries, how to say no to people while keeping the relationship intact, as well as how to make a variety of different asks. And so these scripts have helped me make millions in my business, and I really believe that they're going to be really supportive for anyone who downloads them, so they can get them at rich relationships book.com,
Zack Arnold: I can't thank you enough, and I am so excited for much of my audience that probably is not aware of your work up until now and how it could potentially be a game changer for their relationships and for their career. So once again, had no business whatsoever having you for an entire hour on my podcast on a Sunday. Immense amounts of gratitude for your sharing, all of your wisdom, your experience and your stories with my audience today. Thank you so much. Selena,
Selena Soo: Thank you. Zack.
Edited by: Curtis Fritsch
Produced by: Debby Germino
Published by: Vim Pangantihon
Music by: Thomas Cepeda
If you struggle with building your network, finding a mentor, and reaching out to strangers you admire, this conversation will help you take your networking game to the next level so you can connect with any industry ‘expert’ in the biz.
