What happens when your creative career no longer pays the bills—but you’re still called to create?
In this episode, I talk with award-winning editor Mark Keefer, whose nearly 30-year career spans Disney, Netflix, and Warner Bros. A simple LinkedIn selfie in a Trader Joe’s uniform went viral after he shared he’d taken his first non-creative job in decades to support his family. We talk honestly about identity, resilience, and what it means to pivot when your career path changes. Mark shares the advice that shaped him, the power of being a generalist, and how letting go of titles can open surprising new doors.
Mark Keefer is a five-time Emmy-winning and three-time Golden Reel-winning film editor whose credits include “The Garfield Movie,” Netflix’s “Over the Moon,” Disney’s “Planes,” and the “VeggieTales” franchise. Beyond his professional achievements, Mark remains passionate about music and continues to play and record, drawing inspiration from his musical background.
Zack Arnold: So Mark, first of all, I have to say that it is a tremendous pleasure to have you with me today, and I very much appreciate you taking the time. And just wanted to share how, as we talked a little bit about off the record, I can't fathom how you and I, over the last 20 plus years have not connected at some point because we live and work in such a tiny, tiny, tiny, little corner of a tiny little industry that when I and we're going to talk more about this in a second, where I saw this post that you put on LinkedIn, and apparently just went, I want to say viral, like Mr. Beast viral, but basically went industry viral with hundreds, if not 1000s of comments, and essentially the post went as follows, not the whole post, but I'll summarize the beginning of it. I'm a film editor. Well, at least that's what it says on my resume. My IMDB page has lots of evidence to prove it as well, along with some other sound credits and minor accolades, which, by the way, not true, major accolades, which we'll get into the attached selfie is of me right before walking into work at Trader Joe's for my first shift on December 9, 2024 so why post this photo and that, my friend, is why I wanted to have you on the show today. So first of all, thank you so much for being here today to share the little bit deeper version of your story that you could do on your LinkedIn, LinkedIn post. And then secondly, why post the photo?
Mark Keefer: Well, thanks for having me. Zack, it's exciting to be here with you, and I am surprised that we haven't met before, but yeah, we can maybe sleuth that out later and figure out why. Why? Okay, maybe we can get it to some of the background later. But I basically in 30 years of being in the film industry, of just working even side gigs. But like usually when you're in a creative industry, your side gigs are creative gigs. I was a sound editor for a long time, sound designer, and then I was a, became a film editor. I just kind of switched over interesting story behind that as well. But I, I would always do little side work here and there, but they were always like a little show here, or a little thing here, or, you know, being a professional drummer for almost my whole life, I a lot of my side gigs were music, and so it was the first time that I had to take something that wasn't a creative role. And it was unnerving a little bit at first. I saw the holidays coming up, I knew that, you know, you know, you know how it is in the industry, nobody's going to start something new between Thanksgiving and the first half of January. It just doesn't happen. I mean, it's rare. So I was just coming off a show and and I just knew I had to have something, just something, to make some ends meet. And the whole time through the interview process at Trader Joe's, through, you know, like there was a couple of weeks I got the job, a couple of weeks before I was finished with this project, and then I was going to start. And that whole time, I was like, maybe something will come in, maybe something will come in, and then here comes my first day. And I'm like, I keep thinking, you know, in the back of my head, something's going to come off from the side and save me from having to walk in the store the first time, and just some stroke of, you know, maybe I'll want to talk about this later. I turned around from my truck and I took a picture of me in front of the store, and I never expected to do a big post about it, because at that time, I wanted it to be a secret. I wanted it to be something that nobody in my industry knew about. It was just between me and the Trader Joe's crew and my family, and I just really thought that it was going to stay that way, and I thought it was going to be really short lived. So when I started working there and started seeing that I was not special. I was just like everybody else there, and they were just like me. They not everybody, but a lot of them had been creative film industry people, and we, we talked about their story, and I got to know them, and I started realizing how incredibly talented they were, and skilled and and just in more ways than stocking shelves, it's, it's not just about that. For them, they, I mean, they work hard, man. I, I, I was really impressed by how hard they work there. It's like a in the post. I say it's like an eight hour workout. And it is it, it's you. You've spent
Zack Arnold: There is a key piece of your postal not to interrupt, but I was going to dig into this a little bit later. But you said it's a good tired, and I know what that good tired feels like, but what did that mean to you? And you said, it's a long day, it's like an eight hour gym workout, but it's a good tired that's different than I think a lot of the tired we feel from this industry. That's a bad tired, that's I got hit by a Mack truck today. Tired, yeah, what's the difference?
Mark Keefer: It was, I don't know. There's just a satisfaction that you leave with that you You did everything you needed to do, to take care of people coming through there, trying to get groceries for their family, making the store look good cleaning it. And to me, part of, I don't know, part of my mission there has been to make the people I'm working with feel valuable and valued. And so I've kind of like took it upon myself to get to know everybody that I work with as much as possible. I mean, you're busy, so you can't do too much, but just ask questions about them and get to know them and encourage them. That's all I'm trying to do. And, and so when you leave at night and and it's a good tired, that's what I mean, it's just like, Okay, that was, that was, that was a good shift. And you feel like you accomplished something, even though it's like, starts over the next day and and, you know, that shelf is empty, that shops and, you know, so it just, it's one of those processes that it's so cyclical that it it will never end as long as the store remains open. So, I guess that's what I meant by that.
Zack Arnold: I do. I love the way that you frame that, because I think mindset is so important, especially with everything that we're going through in this industry, in this world, there are just so many things that are uncertain, and you very easily could have gone in with the mindset of this is bullshit. I am too good to be freaking working at Trader Joe's. Why am I checking out groceries? I have won five Emmys. I've run, won multiple Golden Reel awards. Oh, by the way, I just edited a huge tent pole animated feature. Screw looking for the baked beans on aisle four, right? But you didn't go in with that mindset, and you could have, how were you able to go into Trader Joe's in such a dire moment right before the holidays, it had been months since you heard about anything? Where did that mindset come from?
Mark Keefer: Well, I That's a good question. I'm and I'm not gonna lie and say that some of those thoughts haven't ever crossed my mind while being there. I mean, there's some times where it's a hard day and you're you're wishing your time there was over and, and you're ready to go and, and it's like, okay, this is not where I want to be. And so, yeah, I'm not going to say that. That never occurs to me, but I guess my to answer your question, I didn't think that they everybody at Trader Joe's. They don't know who I am. They don't know what my background is. It's not incumbent on them to find everything out about me and be impressed by anything. And so I went in there anonymous. And partly because I did, I thought, here it is six months and I'm still working there one or two days a week, but I just didn't, I didn't think it was worth going in with any attitude. And I guess maybe that's how I take every new job, but I want to do it's why not start fresh? Why not have a clean slate with these people and come in and be positive and be a strength to them in the plus and minus columns, be be a plus, you know?
Zack Arnold: And kind of goes back to what you were saying about how it wasn't just checking out people for their groceries, stocking the shelves. You saw purpose in the work that you were doing your it was about helping families get their groceries. It was about helping facilitate the work with the team. You found purpose in that. And I think that's where so many people feel lost right now, is their identity and their purpose were this job title, I am an feature animation editor. I am a sound editor. Not only that, I am a five time Emmy winning and Golden Reel Award winning editor. Those aren't just things that are on a resume. They become our identities. And to walk into Trader Joe's with a name tag and all it has on there is Mark Right. It diminishes decades worth of accomplishments.
Mark Keefer: Well, I'm at a certain age where I I've been through disappointments, and I've I've had my identity strict, stripped away, and by losing a job on this or something ending, and it's like, well, that's no longer what I do. And I. Those things aren't permanent, things that you've accomplished, and even awards and stuff that does stick with you, but it's it's not. It's not that important to who you are as a person. It's not, it's not at all important to who you are as a person.
Zack Arnold: Well, speaking of who you are as a person, the instigator for me, saying I would like to have mark on the podcast was, of course, the LinkedIn post with a picture of you at Trader Joe's. I said, I bet there's a story here. What I didn't expect is that I think there's an equally or even more interesting story that has nothing to do with Trader Joe's, because once I started to do a little bit of research, I said, this guy is perfect for the podcast, having nothing to do with the job at Trader Joe's. So the two areas that I really want to dig into throughout today's conversation, and I might veer in any other direction that we so choose, like I told you, as a musician, this is going to be jazz. PS, I'm a horrible musician, and I know nothing about jazz. Conversationally, I'm pretty good at jazz. So having said that, the two things that fascinated me the most are number one, and I say this in the best way possible, your resume makes absolutely no sense. You have done so many different things, and you kind of yada yada. The best part where you said, Well, I transitioned from sound to editing. What? So that you've done so many different things that most would say they're completely separate career paths. But the second area, and these two will probably be intertwined, is that a very common, recurring theme of my conversations on this show is about not just creativity, but about being a creative. And in digging through I know you don't blog anymore, but you have an extensive blog that you had in the early 2000s I would argue you're not just a creative person. You define yourself as a creative and it seems like you need some outlet to be creating things, even if it's a two minute video about what the hell is on the Hill in our backyard, like there's just so many cool experiments, things you've written about, sharing your personal stories. So I'd like to talk a little bit more going backwards now to your career paths, because it really makes no sense. And again, I know what it takes to create such a diverse career path or paths. So I want to dig into all these different angles you've gone. And then I want to talk about what it feels like and what your process is, just knowing when I wake up in the morning I got to make stuff. So let's just kind of start with the origin story, to weave all of these various different story points together, as far as the resume and the career paths that you've taken.
Mark Keefer: Okay, well, I became a drummer in in junior high school, and I just pursued music. I fell in love with drums and and I thought that was just going to be it. I'll just be a drummer, you know. And when I was in high school, my dad, he said, You need to know more than one instrument. I'm like, why? You know, just, and he's not a musician, but something in him knew that it would help him if he knows more than one instrument. So he said, Come on, it's your birthday. We're gonna go get your guitar. And so we went to a pawn shop and found a nice Yamaha acoustic guitar, and I started learning guitar as well. And I was like, okay, so drums always be number one for me, but I'm starting to love guitar and and so that kind of like opened up a horizon for me and my world a little bit in music, thinking there's more to it than just hitting things with sticks. And so at the end of high school, I decided I'm going to study music. And so I was lucky enough to be located, I was in Dallas, Texas. I was close enough to North Texas, University of North Texas, and which is a world renowned music school. And I thought, well, that's, that's what I'm going to do, you know? And so I, I did the long track there. I studied jazz, and I changed my major to, you know, this, and that ended up with a music education degree, and which means, you know, when you have one of those, that means you had to learn all of the band instruments. You had to go through all the whole thing and like, you know, the woodwinds and the brass and the string instruments and everything, and not be proficient, but just know how they're played, and so that you can teach others. And so that, that was my thing. And I thought, well, I'm going to teach. And I ended up not teaching because I started playing in bands and like, Okay, I'm not going to teach. You know, I'm going to I did teach privately for about nine years, but I didn't teach in a school setting and but I kept playing, and I opened up a recording studio. And I'm kind of rushing through all this, but it's basically it just one thing led to another. I I opened up this recording studio behind. Their house. I started doing records for people. And, you know, everywhere where I lived, everybody has written a song, and it was just, you know, and they were not good, but I was there to record them. And I would record my own stuff and bands I was playing in, in there. And one day, this guy, I was going to a large church at the time, and that church had a big TV department, and they were making films and stuff. They just, you know, were into that. And so this guy called me and said, Hey, are you busy in your studio? I need some help with cutting sound on this film. And I said, I don't know anything about it. I've never been worked on the computer. Everything I was doing in my studio was just like music, you know, it wasn't on computers. And so I went in to help him out. I had a little bit of a lull, and we he showed me Pro Tools for the first time. And he it was like, Pro Tools two or one point something. I forget what it was, but it was really early. And he said, Okay, here's, it was a Western and it was a gunfight. And he said, here's this guy's gun, here's the the sound, and here's this guy, and here's his gun sound and all that, you know, he showed me and and so the next couple of nights, he would go away, and I would just kind of tinker and figure out okay, that looks that looks out of sync, okay, because I can nudge that, okay, cool. And just learning the most basics of sound editing. And so I edited sound effects to this gunfight, and immediately fell in love, and I went home and I said, That's what I want to do. I told my wife and and she's like, well, how are you going to get into that? I don't know, but I want to learn about it. And because it was just, you know, I'd worked with sound my whole life. At that point, I've never, I've never known what power it was to put sound to picture. It was just like, oh. It just amplified everything for me and in the storytelling side of it and everything, it was just just so exciting. So from that point, I just started finding ways to let people know I want to do sound work. I want to do this. I want to do that. And finally, got a job at this production house in town, and they were doing a lot of original content. And I, I'm just like, Okay, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm so like, I had imposter syndrome, and I thought, Well, I'm just gonna, you know, get online and read all day, every day, about, you know that at the time, digit design, before they were bought from Avid, bought by Avid, they had a forum. And I learned so much on that forum. I just, I went to school again on that thing and learned how to run Pro Tools, run out, learn how to do run audio vision. At the time, was avid sound software at the time, I just started doing things like that and just kind of building up this knowledge base and getting good at it. And not just, but not just how to run the programs with it, but theories and how to understand, you know, how to cut backgrounds and why they matter, and and, and how to layer sounds and how to do, you know, all the things like that. After about a year there or two, this guy was coming to town. This was in Tulsa, Oklahoma, by the way, this guy was coming from LA to help us work on an animated project that we it was our first time to try anything animated. And I froze up. I knew that I was I was done for because everybody from LA obviously knows everything about everything. I just, you know in my head, this is how I thought so. It's ludicrous, but I just figured this guy is coming from LA he's going to see right through me. He's going to know I don't know what I'm doing. And so I had this vision in my head of him walking into my office, closing the door behind him and saying, you should think about selling insurance.
Zack Arnold: True story, welcome to the inside of every creative person's mind. Ever
Mark Keefer: Yes, right? Anyway, he had been there two weeks now, and I saw him walking toward my audio suite, and he walks in and close the door behind him, and I said, it's happening. And he said, You should think about moving to LA and I'm like, What? What? Why? What are you talking about?
Zack Arnold: Why would I sell insurance in Los Angeles?
Mark Keefer: So. So he said, No, you need to move to LA. You can hang with those guys. Wow. And that's when the just the floodgates open. And I said, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm learning on the fly. I'm reading about it one day and doing it the next and and he said, That doesn't matter. Nobody knows what they're doing. We all figured out on the fly, because everything changes. The technology is so liquid, we all have to refigure it out every time anyway. And he took a lot of pressure off of me with that. And he said, You've got talent. You should be out there. And I said, No way. I don't want to live in LA and and he worked on me for nine months. He was in town for nine months, and he just constantly, I'll see you out there. I'll see you out there. Basically, he goes home, he says, I'll see you when you get out here. A couple of months later, the production company I was working for said, we need to take you part time. You know, we don't have enough work, and you can use all the gear for free, but you, you know, we, we just, we can't afford to pay you full time anymore. I said, Well, what if I buy the gear and I take it to LA with me, and I do whatever you need from out there? And initially said no, but they eventually said yes to that. So just a matter of months, I was moving my family at time. At the time I had three kids, wife and three kids, and going out and setting up shop in Valencia and taking the equipment with me was a good stroke, because it I was able to just do all these side gigs and freelance. And it just I started working with everybody I could find out there, and I moved across the street from a friend of mine. Well, he wasn't a friend until we moved there, but he worked at Warner Brothers animation and and he came over and saw my studio, and he goes, Oh, you're legit. I do have a reel? I'll take it in for you. And so he did, and I started calling Warner Brothers animation all the time and just trying to work my way in there. They finally called me and said, We need you for six weeks. Are you available for six weeks? I said, Yeah, I just came off the show. I'm good. And two weeks into that, the guy comes into my office, close the door. He says, Can you stay? We're gonna have more for you. I'm like, yeah, yeah, stay during that time. I'm trying to not over tell the story. But you know, basically during the time at Warner Brothers animation, I was doing Saturday morning lineup, stuff like dialog and ADR conforms. And I was also tasked with restoring Looney Tunes, all of the shorts, the old merry melodies and Looney Tunes shorts.
Zack Arnold: Oh my God. What a dream job. I'm aging myself a God that would be, would have been so cool.
Mark Keefer: It was amazing. I I knew it was going to be cool, but I had no idea when I got into it. What an honor it was going to be to do that work I was using at the time 7075, year old elements, some of them nitrate that only two places in LA were allowed to open because they're so volatile and trying to create the best soundtracks for these. They were going to be uncut, unedited, restoration of all these Looney Tunes and, and we had a guy working on the picture side of it, so I was the audio guy, and, and, and we didn't change anything. We didn't add anything. Every once in a while I had to create a new M and E track, music and effects track for some of the shorts. But in general, everything was there. And Trey Brown, the original editor, was he quickly became a hero of mine because of what he had accomplished on all those Looney Tunes, working with Carl stalling and Milt Franklin, that orchestrator and composer of all the shorts, those three guys, they, what they did was nothing short of phenomenal. And if you go back and listen to any of those shorts, you'll see that Treg for sound effects, he didn't cover everything. He just, like would hit the highlights, and like we do now, we cover every single thing the pen goes down to the desk, you know. We have to cover that on our soundtrack. He only did what was necessary, and it was beautiful, and it worked, you know? And so that was, to this day, one of the coolest gigs I've ever had, and I did a little over 300 shorts for them.
Zack Arnold: Wow, on that. Well, just for anybody that's listening, that's of the younger generation, maybe they've heard of Looney Tunes, but they haven't experienced it some of the best. Unbridled creativity in the world of animation ever. And everybody has their favorites. I'm just going to put this one out there. You want to really get a taste of the genius of this. I've got three words for you. Rabbit of Seville, enough. Yes, best cartoon ever made.
Mark Keefer: It is the perfect looney tune. It is the perfect looney tune. It's, it's, it's genius, top to bottom. And if you didn't mention that one, that was the one I was going to bring up.
Zack Arnold: I mean, that's the one like to me like it. I can't imagine that. Anybody can dispute that. There's anything out there that's better. There's so many other great Looney Tunes cartoons, but this one, it's just like, you watch and you're like, This is mesmerizing, and it's genius, and every frame of it works, and it's hilarious, too.
Mark Keefer: Do you know Zack, why they hold up? It's because they weren't made for kids. They were made for adults. These Lenny tunes. They were meant to be shorts before the features that people would go see in the theaters and and they would show one or two of them, and they were meant to entertain adults. And I think they kind of started, you know, in the 70s and 80s, started dumbing them down to younger generations. But it's amazing to me that, if any we raised our kids on these things, we were like, Okay, we were sure to do, you know, okay, you're gonna watch this, you know, we had all the, you know, you're gonna watch Amy Griffith. You're gonna watch a Dick Van Dyke Lucy, you know,
Zack Arnold: we release your broccoli and watch your husband totally
Mark Keefer: and now my kids, who are in their 20s, they totally appreciate that upbringing. They know that that they were steeped in great pop culture of that day. But anyway, while I was at Warner Brothers animation, a good friend of mine started working his his production company started making hoodwinked, and they had known me from doing small things with them before, and so they asked me to to sound design that. And so I, I joined in, and I did all of it. I did everything at first, because it was like I was the sound guy, you know, for the first couple of years, you know. And eventually they took it to Skywalker Sound to to finish it, and they said, we've got space for you in the budget to go there and do this with them. And at that time, I was a little bit and I was, I was a lot intimidated by that thought, because, you know, Randy Tom there, we got Tom Myers there, we got Gary summers there. We've got, you know, all these heavyweights. And what's that going to be like? So I said, Yes, and I was very thankful for it, and I went up there and started I found out I had a conversation on my first day at Skywalker. And this is, this is really important, because it really it furthered the point I was making a minute ago about not having to know everything. I went in there knowing I am so young in my sound career here that I don't I don't belong here. You know, I was just convinced myself, and though I knew I was good at what I did, I still like next to these guys, this, you know, a different level. And I was walking around with Tom Myers, who has an incredible career. I mean, he's just look him up, and he was showing me this, is this that was that, and around the tech building on ranch and and I asked him a question about how we were going to do something. I forget what it was. Question wasn't important, but he's he said, Oh, I have no idea. I'll get I'll get bear. Who was our Chris Barrick, or sound assistant, who was phenomenal, so I'll get bear to look at that and and let us know. And I was like, oh, okay, that's awesome. I'm glad that someone will know what to do. And, and he goes, Look, let me stop. I know what you're thinking. We you can't know everything. You can't know how to do everything. You have to rely on a team. That's only way we get stuff done. So if you don't know something, come to me, go to him, go to you know, I mean, it was like, it was just, like, basically free license to not know everything. And again, I just, and that was a moment where I really needed that reminder, and it took a lot of weight off my shoulders. And so my time at Skywalker was very fruitful, very positive, and I'm so thankful for it, because I got to meet these sound giants, Christopher boys and Ben Burtt, all these guys, and they were as humble as you can imagine. Uh, just, you know, so kind. The reason I made sure to bring up Skywalker is because this is what eventually got me into picture editing. I became friends with Ben Bert on the volleyball court. There is a place on on the rants, called the fit and and there's a volleyball court there. And at that time, everybody was playing volleyball during lunch. It was great. And so we're in there, you know, doing this for an hour, and then everybody runs back to their film. And one day after he and I are talking, and I said, Well, what are you working on right now? And he said, Well, I'm doing episode three. And I said, Oh, so you're sound designing that. He said, Well, I'm cutting picture on that too. And I was like, I mean, poof, you know, because I knew that what an incredibly, you know, intensive job sound designing for a Star Wars film would be, but to also be cutting picture. And I said, How in the world are you doing that? He said, Well, I have really good teams on both sides, so it's a lot of supervision, but I but I wanted to do it, and George was cool with it. Yeah, right. And so that was another, you know, gate opening for my my brain kind of like when my dad said, you need to know more than one instrument. Ben wasn't telling me I needed to do this, but he was giving me this insight of, there's a guy out there, and of course, Walter March too, right? And you know, the pioneers these guys are, they're not satisfied with just doing this one thing that they came into the business doing. They wanted to become filmmakers. They wanted to to experience the process of cutting the film as well. And so Ben was like, Yeah, I just love the the I can shape the film as well as make it sound great. And that had been up to that point, had been one of my beefs with sound was that, you know, it's usually locked when it comes to you, and you have, you know, they say, here, make it sound great. You're like, Okay, awesome. And then you're working on it, you're like, Hmm, really need this to open up here, or that shot right there is just not work, you know, this, these things in my head. I this, that ship has sailed. You know, you can't do anything about it. And so when Ben told me he was doing that, it made me think, maybe eventually I'll do some of that. And so I got Final Cut and started playing with it, and never anything professionally. But it started, you know, cutting little things for the family and personal stuff comes to 2008 2008 everybody's starting to, you know, the economy crashes, right? And film industries having a really hard time as well. And so my time at Warner Brothers animation comes to an end, and nobody's buying a job. There's just nothing out there. My producer, Sue B Montgomery, on hood, wait, she called me out of the blue. This is like a few months after being out of work, and everybody's like, whoa. What do I do? She said almost immediately, hello, hey, you can cut picture right like, yes, absolutely knowing that, I barely knew what to do. And she goes, Great, I have TV show for you. And I just knew, Okay, this is catching up too quickly to me, Subie, you know, I've never done this professionally, just kind of dabbled. She said, You're smart, you'll get it. And she took a massive risk on me and and hired me to go to the Jim Henson Company and be the editor on Dinosaur Train.
Zack Arnold: My goodness from, like, working with Skywalker now with Jim Henson, like, my goodness, what it was storied career.
Mark Keefer: It was, it looking back, it feels like that at the time, it was just like, Thank God, something that's, you know, a gig work, yeah, anything. And so I went there and knowing, at least in my thought, I knew that I'm going to go back to sound. But this is a good, you know, fix it for now. So good band aid. Well, this guy, Sue B, came into my office about a month in, and she said, you're going to need help. We have. We. You have too many episodes coming in you. We need to get a couple more editors. And so she said, I know a guy who I know you're really good friends with, and you should call him. And so I called him, and he had just left Disney Feature. And so his name is Dan Molina, one of my best friends in the world. He I called him and I said, Hey, Dan, working at Jim, Jim Henson. Oh, really, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we need another guy. Would you like to come here and make about half what you were making at Disney? I literally said that to him, and he goes, Yeah, I would. And I couldn't believe and I said, Why do you want to do that? And he said, Well, I've always, it's been, it's a bucket list thing for me. I've always wanted to work for Jim Henson. And so, you know, he came and and we worked great together. And so we did that about a year. And when he left. Jim Henson, I had just left. I was back at Warner Brothers for a minute. He called me and said, Hey, I've got a feature. Would you like to come and be my associate editor on it? And so that's, I mean, I really thought I'm back in sound now I'm just going to do that. But when he called me, I was like, maybe there's a future here. And so we did that feature, and then, and then we went to Disney together for about seven years. And and, you know, fast forwarding a little bit. I right after Disney, I went to, I went to Netflix and did a show called over the moon, the associate on that for one of my heroes, a lot of people's hero, Glenn keen, who's legendary animator, I mean, lead animator on Aladdin, the beast, Ariel, and all these, you know, iconic things that he helped create and do so. And I knew him a little bit from my church. He actually went to my church, and so that was an experience I'll never forget. But I bring him up because about 10 years before this, I told him. I said, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know, you know what I'm going to do. It was like the 2008 thing. I was like, What am I supposed to go to? How am I going to get through this? And plus, I also feel like a fraud. I'm I'm not, I'm not. I didn't go to school for this. Everybody I work with, studied this, and I, you know, I'm just faking it so that obviously this is a theme for me, right? This is,
Zack Arnold: I was just going to say, I'm hearing a recurring theme in today's conversation. I'm glad you pulled it out for me
Mark Keefer: and and he really, I think he really bottled it up, though, because what happened was he said, let's go. We're gonna go to go to breakfast and we'll talk about it. And he, he gave me a book. It's called Art and fear and and it talks about artists as basically stemmed from a group of artists that were all from different disciplines, and they all over, meeting over a certain amount of time, they they realized that they all shared the same fear is that everybody's going to see through them that they don't belong on on their particular level. They don't, you know, they, they, they're frauds in some way. And he said, they all realized that they could relate in this one way. And so they wrote this book to to communicate that that is part of being an artist, that is the end of fear from that is partly what compels more creation, which is, you know, another profound thought. And so when I got that book, he was just like, Yeah, you gotta read this. I dealt with the same thing. For someone like him, too. I dealt with the same thing. And I've given so many of these books out to people. And that really, really was the convincer For me, that was just, it's you're not alone when you think I don't belong here. I can't do I mean, there's a difference between not being able to do the gig but fearing the exposure to others. And you know all that that's when that's when you know you lose because you need to realize that if you have this talent, if you have these skills, you know, believe in that. I don't think that anything's an accident. I think. That, like, I'm a big believer in God, and I think that he gives us different skills for a reason, and takes us through different trials for a reason. And I'm, I'm a product of everything I've experienced up to this point, and that's what makes me, me, and you, you and all you know, pretty cliche, but that's true. And so anyway, that kind of brings us up to date. To, you know, right after working on Glenn's film, I got the Garfield movie, worked with Mark dindle, who is, if you don't know who he is, he directed the inverse New Groove. He did Cats Don't Dance and Chicken Little. He's a fantastic filmmaker, even better guy, and maybe the most collaborative person I've ever worked with. He will, he will sit and listen to all of your ideas, and if he likes it, it's in because he knows his at the end of the day, his name is still going to say directed by, you know, and you're just making the movie better. And plus, he knows that that gives, you know, if I bring an idea, he likes it, and says, yes, let's do that. He knows that gives me a little ownership, you know, I feel like I'm I've got a little, you know, that's a bit of me in there. And so he sees the power in that. So Garfield was a five year movie, and we finished it in March of 24 came out in May 24 and so that almost brings us up to date. And after that, I worked on a feature for about eight months as an additional editor, and when my time was up there, that's when I went to Trader Joe's.
Zack Arnold: Wow. Well, first of all, I can see why so many people want to give you a shot, because, dear Lord, have you made me look good and made my job easy so far today? Number two, if you're looking for another path that you may end up going in the future that might bring you back to where you started, you very clearly have a future in teaching, because you're really good at not just telling your story, but pulling the insight from it that somebody can say, oh, I can see the value in this for myself. I've conducted many hundreds of these conversations over the years, and there's a difference between somebody just kind of goes on and on. Well, this happened, then I met this person, then I got this job, then I got this one. You're really good at constructing the story around it and the takeaways, and how it can be valuable, universally for people like you. So I'm just going to plant that seed where others have maybe said, I see something in you, and you're thinking, I could never be a teacher. I'm a fraud. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how to teach. I'm now seeing what maybe some of these people saw in you in the past, because I think you, you have an excellent way of storytelling, and really kind of bringing it back to a point, which, again, makes my job really, really easy, because I just sit here and I just get to nod for 45 minutes. Here's the part that I want to go into next to where I see a recurring theme. And I think this recurring theme is so important for where most people are. Now I don't want to say everyone, but it's almost everyone. So many people are saying, What do I do next? Right? It's for years, I think, ever since the pandemic, we've been forced to hit the pause button and ask, Is this really what I want to do with my life? Do I want to continue doing this work? Do I want to find something else? And we were voluntarily asking, Do I want to stick with this thing, or do I want to quit and move on. Now, we've been forced into a position where, for so many people, their career paths have quit on them. But one of the recurring themes that I see with so many people, especially the students in my academy, when we workshop this, is this cognitive bias that's called the sunk cost fallacy, which is, well, I've already invested all of this time in this thing, and I feel like if I quit on this, even if I am interested in going this other direction, I'm a quitter, and I've wasted all those years. So I actually want to go back to the beginning, even though this is a recurring theme, the pivot point that I think is so pivotal is when you had the opportunity to get into sound, how is it that you didn't say to yourself, yeah, but I've gotten the degree in music and I want to be a drummer, and now I've learned all these instruments, and I've gone down this path, and you're like, sound design is awesome. Let's do it. How did you how did you not get frozen in fear of Yeah, but look at what I've already invested and I'm going to be a quitter.
Mark Keefer: Well, I guess because they were so closely related for me, at least in my head, they were, I know that there are two different worlds, and the nomenclature in those different businesses is so different, but I think I just saw it as an extension of I saw it as going a step here instead of here or here. You know, I I don't really have a great explanation for it, other than I felt something in my heart. There's been a few times, and maybe you've had the same thing. There's been a few times in my life where. Somebody will say, we need x, or here's a, here's an opening there, or something like that, and your heart leaps and, and I've learned to pay attention to it, and that's kind of what happened when I mean, it was like a two or three day leap, you know, it was like, What the hell is all this stuff? What? Okay, computer, okay, now I have to figure out how to work on a computer. Now, Pro Tools. Okay, that's cool. But, I mean, it doesn't, you know, I'm working on a dats. That's the future in music studio. So it was just when I saw this happen, I think I was just like, this is just too cool to ignore. I didn't that's my explanation. That's why I shy away from it. I think it was just so the lure was so strong to me,
Zack Arnold: Sure, and so what I don't want to do is certainly answer the question for you, or put words or thoughts into your mouth, but tell me if I'm on the right track. Something that we talk a lot about in our community, that I talk about with my students, that I talk about on the podcast, is how the way that we've been trained to specialize widgets, to do one thing right. We as early as preschool. What do you want to be when you grow up? Then you choose a major, then you train for that skill, then you start at the bottom and you work your way up, the system never worked, but now the curtain has been pulled back, and we're like, wow, this whole system is bullshit, and it's all falling apart, and we're all trying to figure out how to redesign our careers from the ground up. But I think what's interesting and different about you, and again, you tell me if I'm on the wrong track here, it doesn't sound like you ever defined yourself by your job. It wasn't well, I'm a music teacher, or I'm a drummer, or I'm a sound editor, or I'm a picture editor. It goes back to kind of this other thread that I wanted to pull on, which is in everything that I've seen of yours, from a 15 year old blog to the work that you've done recently, it seems to me, your identity is that I'm creative. I'm a creative person, and I want to express myself creatively. And these were just different avenues versus Well, I don't want to throw away my identity as a music teacher or a drummer, and now I'm a sound editor. It's cool. Another way to creatively express myself. Am I somewhat on the right track here?
Mark Keefer: No, that's 100% it. And I mean, I'll just add to it. You're right on track. What I'll add is that it just felt like, you know, they were so applicable to each other. They were they just felt so adjacent to me. And maybe, I mean, even looking back, it still feels that way. But I guess if you're at the starting line and you're thinking, I'm going to be a musician, or I'm going to be a sound editor or whatever, I mean, you have two different worlds and all that. But I just I saw I was never going to give up being a musician. I guess that maybe that was part of my saving grace in that moment, because I was like, I was never going to stop being a drummer. I'm still playing. I you know, I was so that part of my life was still here. I'm just adding this new thing, I guess. And so when I had people, and maybe you had the same thing, same thing, when you'll like, if you're interviewing for a job, and they're like, Well, we're working on this platform. Is that a problem? And I'm like, Well, no, I'm an editor. I can, I can edit, and it doesn't matter what I prefer added. Okay, that's my, my tool of choice. But I've been working on a show the last couple of months, House of David, and that's Premier Pro, and that is not my first choice. It's good. It's very good at what it does. But, you know, so that those skills, I guess I'm, I feel like that, the whatever skill set you bring to a table, and if you're, if you're adding a new one while I do that too. Now this skill set gets a little bigger. Now I can do this too. So now I can do these three things. And, you know, and I don't know, maybe in the back of my head I was like, now I've got, I'm good. I can, I can go play on the street corner. I can, I can cut sound. I can, you know, whatever. And so that's, that's kind of my answer to that. Mm
Zack Arnold: hmm. That goes back to what I think is probably, the piece of advice that strung all this together, going back to your dad, you got to learn more than one instrument. And this, to me, this feeds into the feeling of being a fraud, the imposter syndrome. I've seen this so much from people over the last couple of years when they're trying to find other paths to either change their career path altogether, or just find income in other areas. It's this mentality of I'm starting over, and I just keep trying to remind them you have so many different skills, life experiences, work experience, all of these things are transferable if you learn how to kind of thread that needle. And as you alluded to, I want to go a little bit deeper in. To this where if somebody says, Hey, do you know Premier and you're like, Well, I'm an editor, and I can learn the tools. Where that's great is if you know that in the first week or two, you're the kind of person. They can figure it out. They can solve problems that knows enough to not get fired. There's also a world where they say, well, you're coming in to do a cleanup edit. We've got a ton of notes, and we need you to deliver by Friday. Now you're going to get fired because you're incompetent. And I think that so many people conflate those two, where they think on day one, I have to know everything. I always tell my students, you need to know enough to not get fired the first week. And if you're the kind of person that can ask good questions and has enough humility to say, hey, I don't know how to do this, can you show me how to do it. By and large, you're not only going to survive, but you can thrive, but we just assume, nope, I got to know all of it reminds me of a not to make this podcast an interview about me as well, but it reminded me of a story I don't think I've ever told on the podcast before, which is that when I had basically talked myself into having no business whatsoever getting hired to edit the TV show. Burn Notice. I had no experience in television, no credits, and I wasn't even an assistant editor. And I remember the post producer having a meeting with me because they were kind of nervous, like, Who is this kid? Why did the show run or hire this person? And one of his questions very basic, hey, how do you feel about avid no problem. Bring it on. I'd worked on Final Cut Pro seven for 10 years. I had used avid in college, but here's what I knew for this opportunity, I was gonna fucking figure it out, and I was gonna figure it out fast. And I'll never forget my first week on the job, I had an assistant editor that had been assigned to me that I think was pretty convinced he should have been in the editor's chair, and he deserved it. And I'll never forget the look on his face my first week. He's thinking, Who is this kid? Why are you cutting the show? I said, Can you show me how to make an audio key frame in AVID and the look on his face? But I knew how to cut story. I knew how to tell their story. It was ridiculously late nights and both weekends, just because I was figuring out like, oh, I can do this in Final Cut. I don't do it. Where is this stupid button, right? But then I delivered my editor's cut, and everybody shut up. But it took me, it took me months to get comfortable with Avid again, but I knew it myself when he said, Are you good with Avid? I wasn't good with Abbott. I was good with being able to figure it out in the amount of time for which I wouldn't have been fired.
Mark Keefer: That's a great story, and we should have a moment of silence for Final Cut seven.
Zack Arnold: Best NLE ever. Am I wrong? It was hard
Mark Keefer: In its day. It was unmatched. And I'm partial, because I that was what I learned on and I got really good on Final Cut seven, and luckily, when I got called for dinosaur train at Jim, Jim Henson Company that was on Final Cut seven, when I my first feature, when Dan called me to go to this first feature that was on Final Cut seven. So I was like, in in my comfort zone, all the way through there, and then when we went to Disney, that's an avid house, and so it's like, okay, I knew that day was coming. I knew that I was going to have to, you know, the reckoning was coming of you're going to have to switch over to Avid and it was so not intuitive compared to Final Cut seven that it took me a couple of years to get comfortable. You know, I got there, but it just was, it's very painful. Now, it's like, that's, that's my in LA of choice. You know, want to stay there, yeah, yeah.
Zack Arnold: I feel very, very similarly, yeah. What I'm curious about now, and this is not to get doom and gloom about the state of the industry, but I always like to be real about the industry. It seems to me that if we were to go back to late 2024 that if anybody should have been poised to be able to find more creative work somewhere in the industry where they had enough skills to get hired like you're a generalist. You're the generalist of generalists. In your world where you had so many different and varied skills, did you really reach a point where you said there's literally nothing left but Trader Joe's?
Mark Keefer: Yes, and that's, that's why I went there. I, I mean, I had a, I had a 90% chance of getting on a show at not a show, a feature at Netflix in early January. And so I've been at Trader Joe's for about a month, and then the fires happened, and then they decided we're going to pull back. We're going to let everybody heal. We're going to, you know, we're not going to add anybody new. We're just going to extend our schedule a little bit and let everybody kind of cope with this disaster, which I can't get mad at those reasons. You know, that would be really crappy of me to do that. So I, you know, I was disappointed, I was frustrated. But I, other than that opportunity that came that close, I've been doing a lot of little development gigs and this and that, you know, and and then you know, but you. But there was, there was just literally nothing there. And finally, I just got to the point was like, I know I'm going to go to Trader Joe's and I'm going to make, you know, X amount an hour. It just was very, very low and but I said, at least it'll be something. It's going to be more than what unemployment will bring in. And, you know, so it was, it's just it had been a hard year and and I was, I kind of had the same thought, you know, that you just expressed that I really thought, and I started looking six months before Garfield was finished, I was getting feelers out, you know, I'm going to be but, you know, the strikes, and then the near strikes, and then, you know, just everything. There was no air in the room for new things, you know? I mean, I remember my first few years of of Garfield, there weren't enough editors in the world. They're just projects and projects and projects looking for people and assistance and all these different things. And it just kind of flipped, and I knew that I was going to have to do it so but there's so many reasons now that I'm thankful I did it, and it's beyond the you know, little bit of financial help it, it gave me at the time. But I feel like, okay, I've been for, you know, better or worse, I've been sitting in a chair editing sounds and picture for a long time now, and in a bit. And, you know, I'm not a stranger to hard work out there. I mean, I've mowed lawns in college. You know, there's this, I get it, but it was such a nice refresher for me to go get my ass kicked at Trader Joe's and feel that good tired that we talked about and, and, and remind myself that there's other people out there that are also going through what I have gone through. Maybe they went through it a couple years ago, and that's why they're here and, and good people, smart people, brilliant people, and, and they're, I'm not going to name any names, but there's one person at the at the store that used to be a physical therapist, and they told me that it was just, this is They like this better? It's just, maybe it's the community, maybe it's a lot of things, but it just a lot of people have left other careers to be there. And I'm not quite to that point yet where I want to do that. I still I need to create some more, like we talked about, but, but I could see myself like retiring and from the film industry eventually, and going back to Trader Joe's and going, Hey, let me back in because it, because it was, it's been great,
Zack Arnold: Right? Well, you are definitely correct in that you're certainly not the only one that is either at this threshold, has already crossed this threshold, is considering crossing this and knowing that maybe they're out of options or close to out of options.
Mark Keefer: Yeah, the most that you've been referring to on LinkedIn that I would say, I can't remember how many comments it's
Zack Arnold: it's many, many, many hundreds. Actually, while you're talking I'm actually gonna look it up. It's a lot.
Mark Keefer: A lot of these people are telling me exactly this story. They're saying, Yeah, me too. I was a production designer for 20 years, and now I'm working at Target, or, you know, I mean, just different things that everybody is coming to me with their their stories, because they know I get it now. And I really, I literally thought I'm going to do this post. Let's go back to the moment of when I, when I actually pushed post, because I was up to that moment, I'd been terrified that that that producers and other directors and filmmakers that I've worked with before, and once that I do want to work with would find out that now I'm here. Oh, well, he's not serious anymore. He's not really part of the industry. And that's just, was what I was thinking they would think. And I just got to a point where, you know, I'm tired of hiding this, and I'm going to, I'm going to be the one that tells this story. I don't want anybody showing up on Facebook and saying I saw Markie for working at Trader Joe's. I just, I just needed to do it. Plus I felt at the time I. Had been there probably three or four months. I thought, I'm proud of what this work is now I understand what I'm learning here about myself and about these people and and so I'm like, okay, that's my story to tell and and so when I did that, I thought it'll be like a typical LinkedIn post of mine that gets 100 people engaged. You know, few comments, a lot of my editor friends that are like, Yeah, me too. And then, and then it goes away. And then, I mean, it's, I haven't looked at the analytics for a while, but it seems, I think it had, like, almost a half a million impressions.
Zack Arnold: Well, I can tell you, at least the front facing analytics currently 17,153 likes, including 3128 hearts, for those of you that are counting, and over 1500 comments, and I am the last person who gives a shit about vanity metrics on social media. But what this says is that your post resonated with so many people, and also that LinkedIn is really good at understanding who you're connected to, because as soon as I clicked on it, all of the likes were people that I already knew, half of which I've worked with. So that's comes back to you, and I know so many of the same people, but you're you're already kind of tapping into what I wanted to really. I wanted to hit this point home, because I know a lot of people, the thought in their mind is, yeah, but if I do this, if I have to, if I have to make this decision, this is embarrassing, people are going to think that I'm less than or, Oh, they've quit. They've given up, and that's really why you know, more than six months later, people like me are still coming out of the woodwork saying this story is so important, because you even said in your post, there is no shame in supporting your family. There's no shame in taking a job like this or being a security guard or delivering Uber Eats or teaching an accounting class at a local middle school, right? This is what it takes for all of us to get through this.
Mark Keefer: Yeah, yeah. Amen, you said it.
Zack Arnold: So the I guess the last place that I would want to go is just talking a little bit more and helping those that are kind of going through this process of making this decision. You even said and this, I didn't realize when I reached out to you, you're still working at Trader Joe's one or two days a week. So how are you kind of managing going back and forth between? It sounds like you're kind of sort of back into work mode, whether it's picture Editing, Sound editing, but you're still kind of one foot in that world. How are you managing all this?
Mark Keefer: It's out of desire to stay at the store, to be completely honest with you, I in early April, I got a call from the show House of David. It's a new Amazon Prime series, and they released their first season in February, and things late February, and it hit number one. It was a hit immediately. And so Amazon said, Yes, give us season two. And so they've been working on that ever since. And I got a call to come edit one of the episodes, and I thought, Well, okay, that's a couple of months of work there, and I wanted to keep my relationship with the store in good standing. So I said, Okay, guys, and they were very flexible with me. I just told them, I need to, I need to, you know, Monday through Fridays are going to be for the show now and and they knew, I mean, I came into my interview telling them what I do and I'm going to keep looking for this kind of work, and miraculously, they still hired me. I don't know why they did, but other than they thought I could, you know, do the work, but it just, I'm so thankful that they've been very supportive. And I've seen this with other people, not just me, of supporting their creative ventures. And so I started on that. I just started doing like, one day a week, two days on the weekends, you know. And I don't even know if the show knows that I work at Trader Joe's. I've never talked about it with them, so
Zack Arnold: I bet they know if they have LinkedIn profiles. Maybe what I love about it, though, is that when you address the elephant in the room. Nobody cares about the elephant in the room. But if all you're thinking is, don't ask about the elephant, don't ask about the elephant, then it just consumes you. And you're like, fuck it. I'm just gonna put it out there. And no good the community that it created.
Mark Keefer: Yeah, you're no good to anybody. You're not creative at that point. You're hindering whatever you're a part of at that moment, it'll, it'll jack up your whole life, unless you let the truth out.
Zack Arnold: Well, the I wanted to start to wrap up the conversation by first saying that again, there's so many other areas that we could talk. And I just, I feel like there's it just, it mesmerizes me that you and I. Did not know each other before because they just feel like they're my guess is at some point we literally have bumped into each other, whether it's at a gala or a mixer or whatever it is, because we have, literally, I just looked at the likes on your post and like, worked with them, worked with them, worked with them. Know them, know them, know them. So it's ridiculous, but I really do admire the fact that you put this out into the world, because I feel like between those comments now, between this conversation, I hope that it gives people the sense that it is okay to take these opportunities. It is okay to deviate, knowing that maybe this is actually part of the path and not a deviation of the path or quitting on the path. It's just a necessary part of survival. So I first wanted to frame this once again to thank you for being so honest and vulnerable about it. So the place that I like to end the conversation is we have a lot of people that listen to the show that are mid career. I get some people that are a little bit earlier in their careers. But one of the most common themes is more about navigating midlife having already been successful in something, but now realizing there's more to life than just the credits, than just the prestige, than just the money. So for those that are mid career that most likely have less generalized skills than you do, or less credits, or less accolades or less awards, how would you be navigating this situation right now, if you were not in the position where you had all of these different various skills, if you were only a sound editor, only a picture editor, only a musician, where, where would you go next, given the present climate that we're all in right now?
Mark Keefer: I mean, that's the million dollar question. I don't know that I can answer that.
Zack Arnold: I think what's ironic is you've already answered it. Oh, I think here's here's here's what I loved about this conversation so much. As soon as you said it, I wrote it down, I highlighted it in green, which means this is a keeper. So I think that this is going to be one of those where I'm going to ask your permission to blatantly steal from you going forwards. It's the mentality of you can't learn just one instrument that, to me, is the solution out of this mess. If we continue to think I am this thing, I have this one skill. This is my one marketable ability to support myself and get hired. That's a road to nowhere in this future.
Mark Keefer: That's brilliant. Yeah, that's exactly right. And I guess, without really trying to do that, that's what I've done and, and honestly, this might be, I've told my story a few times, but I've never gone back as far as that instrument conversation with my dad and and that is, I can see now that you've pointed it out, that that is a real catalyst, that is a real kind of like Beginning of the spring right that turns into the stream that turns into the river for me, and so thanks, Dad.
Zack Arnold: Well, it's for anybody that's a longtime listener, viewer, follower of the work that I do, they either know this already or it wouldn't come as a surprise, but my favorite film of all time is inception. I'm always in everybody's stories, trying to figure out, what is the point of inception. That's really the questions underneath all the questions, underneath all the questions, yeah. And to me, I think the inception point for you is that just one small piece of advice. Don't just learn one instrument, because I think that's what's helped serve you to get where you are. And frankly, I think it's the advice all of us need to survive the future of all this chaos.
Mark Keefer: And I think I will say one little tiny bit to that is that, thank God I was willing to listen to my dad at that time. Instead of being proud of being becoming a decent drummer for that age, I could have easily gone, no, no, I got to focus, you know, on this. And I don't know, I just, I went, I rolled with it, and and I'm so happy, in hindsight, that I did. And so whatever your second, third, fourth instrument is going to be anybody listening, just, you know, be willing to to pick it up and start learning it.
Zack Arnold: And I could not have closed this any better had I tried. If I had orchestrated, no pun intended, if I had orchestrated today's conversation, could not have finished it at a better place than that mark. I'm really, really happy that the LinkedIn algorithm brought us together. I talk a lot of shit about algorithms and social media, but in this case, the algorithm has done some good in bringing us together. So glad that we connected, so appreciative of you sharing your story. If somebody listening is inspired, they're interested in connecting with you or learning more, where should we send them?
Mark Keefer: I'm kind of limited at the moment, but they can find me on LinkedIn, and they can find me on Instagram, you know the usual stuff.
Zack Arnold: Facebook, make sure that we'll link to all of the above in our show notes. So anybody, when they're done, they want to scroll with their thumbs down a little bit further, there we go. They have a way to connect with you directly. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Well, Mark, once again. This is a tremendous pleasure, and cannot appreciate enough you taking the time to share your story.
Mark Keefer: Thank you.
Edited by: Curtis Fritsch
Produced by: Debby Germino
Shownotes and published by: Vim Pangantihon
Music by: Thomas Cepeda
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