About Episode
In this episode I interview Chad & Brenda Walding, Doctors of Physical Therapy and the authors of the new book The Sitting Solution, a brilliant resource for anyone (read: everyone) in our industry who is sedentary for more than 6-8 hours per day. We talk about the health problems associated with chronic sitting, and more importantly, we talk about the realistic solutions to fixing years of chronic pain, as well as reversing the negative health effects of being sedentary. And even if you’re already standing, there is still a lot to learn about staying healthy. This is a MUST LISTEN for everyone in our industry. .
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Transcript
Chad Walding: Hey, I just found your podcast recently, and you talked about morning rituals. And one thing that I’d always heard but never actually implemented was a like stretching routine in the morning. And I was wondering what you would recommend and where some resources to find those, because I’ve certainly found my mobility going down this past year, as I’ve spent more time sitting in front of the computer, I know, I know, sitting. Don’t do it. I’m on my way there.
Zack Arnold: Hello, and welcome to episode 27 of the Fitness and Post podcast. That question was from listener Nick Justice, who recently visited the Fitness and Post website. But rather than answer his question myself. I have two experts on the show to answer it for me. I’m here today with Chad and Brenda Walding, both doctors of physical therapy and health and wellness coaches. But most importantly, they are the authors of a brand new book called The Sitting Solution. And frankly, I believe this could become one of the cornerstones of the entire fitness and post program because I get questions from readers online and from people on podcasts asking about what do I do if I can’t find time to take an hour a day and go to the gym or exercise at home, and I just need to find things that I can do that are really simple in my office. And I’ve been spending some time trying to put some of those things together. And then I heard you guys on a podcast with Ben Greenfield, and I said I can stop doing everything that I’m doing because you geniuses have done all the work for me. So thank you so much for being on the show.
Brenda Walding: Thanks for having us. Good to be here, Zack. Thank you.
Zack Arnold: So you guys were nice enough to send me an advance copy of your book, and I will admit that I haven’t read every single word cover to cover, but I read, you know, probably through at least the first half or first two thirds, and then it got into all the physical therapy stuff. And now I personally am already implementing it into my daily routine because, like I said, I found you as I was trying to develop this, and it’s already making an immense difference just in the way that you know, like my upper back feels and my neck feels. So let’s. What I want to do is just spend the entire podcast talking about the sitting solution, what it is, how it works. So why don’t you guys just go ahead and first give our audience like the the elevator pitch for what the sitting solution is, and then we can really start getting into the nitty gritty.
Chad Walding: Yeah. Well, essentially, what the sitting solution is is a corrective exercise program that people can do throughout the day to combat the negative effects of sitting. So we’ll talk about some of the problems of sitting. But you know, as physical therapists, we have treated lots of neck pain, back pain, shoulder pain, hip pain, and all that. For the most part, the people that we’re seeing, they’re not getting in traumatic accidents, right? They’re not getting in car accidents or anything like that. It’s that these people are spending most of their time sitting in very compromised positions, and their body starts molding in these positions. We develop structural imbalances, so certain muscles are getting tight, certain muscles are getting elongated and weak. It leads to poor function, it leads to increased pain levels. There’s all kinds of chronic diseases that sitting is associated with so we saw this. We started seeing that the root of many problems that we were coming into was was that they were sitting, and we really got motivated to create a solution behind that to get people more active throughout the work day. So it’s not just you can sit all day, then go to the gym, and your health and fitness is good. You really have to bring more activity into the workday, and then when you do move, move in specific and intentional directions, so you you keep an upright posture, right? You’re less likely to have pain and experience all those negative effects,
Zack Arnold: Right? And I think that the place to really start is highlighting what you just said-the negative effects. Because if people go onto the main site for my program, fitnessandpost.com and they scroll down literally maybe a couple of inches. They’re going to see in big bold letters, “Sitting is the new smoking. And when people hear this, they kind of want to roll their eyes. But rather than talk about anecdotal, oh, we have a few patients here and there. I know that you guys are just absolutely riddled with all kinds of statistics. So can you just go ahead and scare my audience and tell them why we’re saying sitting is the new smoking, and show the science that’s backing this up.
Brenda Walding: Well, yeah, like I think one, you know, we identify five big problems that chronic sitting is related to, and when I say chronic sitting, we’re talking about you know sitting six to eight hours a day, day after day after day, and you know, like Chad mentioned, a couple of the two that we see a lot in our practices, you know, and probably most people have experienced if they sit for a lengthy period of time. The first one is experiencing acute and chronic pain, and that’s something that most people can identify with: headaches, back pain. We see this a lot in our practice. The second one is a decline in functional mobility. So this may not be on people’s radar very much, especially if they’re in the younger population. But over time, when you sit in these compromised positions, you’ve probably seen the some elderly people. You know, when they’re they’re hunched over, you know, over their walkers. Basically, when you’re sitting in this position and you don’t address these muscular. Those skeletal adaptations that are occurring, you begin to lose your, you know, get that forward head, rounded shoulder. You begin to lose function. You know, we have patients that are elderly; they can no longer reach over their head and comb their hair. They lose mobility in their shoulders. They begin to require using a walker or cane much earlier because they start to lose their balance when they start to lean over, so you begin to lose function over time. The third, and this is kind of like you mentioned, sitting is the new smoking, and all the research studies that are coming out around this is the chronic sitting linked to the development of chronic disease conditions. So we’re talking obesity, heart disease, type two diabetes, and cancer.
Chad Walding: Yeah, and just to add to that, like specifically, we know that when you’re sitting for more than six hours a day, you’re going to decrease the production of lipoprotein lipase, which is a fat-burning enzyme, by up to 90% So when you’re sitting like that and very stagnant, you’re leaving a lot more fat circulating in the blood, and that also has an effect on your cholesterol, your HDL-LDL ratio. So it starts moving that in a negative direction.
Brenda Walding: Yeah, and just other other biomarkers that are negatively impacted with chronic sitting, and you know the reasoning behind why we’re seeing a connection between chronic sitting and chronic disease are are negative effects of things like blood pressure. You know what Chad mentioned, the skeletal lipoprotein lipase, triglycerides, insulin sensitivity-all of these biomarkers that are connected to these chronic disease conditions-and there’s even been studies on chronic sitting and an increase in mortality risk, and then also negatively impacting emotions, behaviors, and hormone levels, which is pretty fascinating.
Chad Walding: Yeah, specifically the hormones testosterone and cortisol. So there’s a behavioral psychologist out of Harvard. Her name is Amy Cuddy. She did a fantastic TED talk, but she goes over how your body position highly influences your physiology. So when we’re in what she called a powerless position, kind of slumped over, you know, the forward head, forward neck, rounded back position. We see a reduction in testosterone and an increase in cortisol, and that’s significant because that those two hormones can really set the stage for a lot of disease to come in. And when we’re in more of an upright, powerful position, shoulders back, you know, everything’s aligned, the opposite happens. So this significantly affects the way others see us, and also the way we see ourselves. It’s kind of something that is the big elephant in the room in terms of our emotions that we don’t quite prescribe to people is to fix their posture in order to feel happy and more powerful. But that’s part of the equation. So really, what we’re saying here is that our posture, our sitting, everything is connected here. Everything’s integrated, and we really have to address the sitting issue and take all those things into consideration when we’re coming up with a prescription on how to fix it.
Zack Arnold: So basically, you’re saying that by sitting all day long, it’s not just a matter of having lower energy and getting a little bit of a pot belly. Then it sounds like it’s a little bit more serious than that.
Chad Walding: Yeah, it’s it’s a little bit more serious than that for sure. We kind of so everything we’ve said, you can kind of break those things down into two different areas, right? There’s two obstacles in the way, and if you you have to really identify these obstacles, and once you do, then you can really nail down that proper prescription. So one thing is stagnation, right? Stagnation is just simply not moving. We get in trouble when we’re not moving for like four to six hours a day. But the cure there, the the fix for that, is to get up and move every 30 to 45 minutes for a period of two to four minutes. If you do that, that’s like your get out of jail free pass for all those chronic diseases like obesity, heart disease, cancer, and whatnot. So that’s essentially what it is. The other issue is adaptation. So, understanding that your body is going to adapt to whatever position or stress is being placed on it by the environment. So, we we normally think of adaptation as a good thing, right? Like we go to the gym, we lift weights, our muscles adapt and they get stronger. But the opposite can happen as well. Like if we go into outer space where there’s no gravity, our bones are going to get weak. Our muscles are going to shrink, and the same thing happens with position. If we’re always slumping forward with these rounded forward, you know, shoulders and neck and everything, our body will adapt to a certain position. Certain muscles get tight, and certain muscles get elongated and weak. So, when you’re moving for that period of two to four minutes every 30 to 40-five minutes, it’s in your best interest to move in specific and intentional directions. These are, you know, just simple corrective exercises that we’ve been using in in the physical therapy clinic as well as the gym for for our whole career, and we know kind of what gets the most bang for the buck with that. And think about things that are appropriate for the workspace.
Zack Arnold: I want to spend a good part of this podcast talking about the solution in detail because, frankly, that’s why you’re here. Is you didn’t write a book called The Sitting Problem. You wrote a book called The Sitting Solution, but you can’t talk about a solution until you recognize the problem. So I want to go in detail into some of your solutions because I absolutely love them, and I’m just going to have a PDF of your book on. Every desk that I use is just going to be sitting right there, and like I’m just going to minimize it in the dock, and then every 45 minutes to an hour, I’m going to have an alert. It’s going to pop up, and I’m going to say, “All right, well, I need to do this, this, and this now. Because I will say that I was a little bit ahead of the curve because I already have a foam roller in my office, I have a kettlebell in my office, I have push-up stands in my office, and I now have just gotten a band, and I’m going to bring a resistance band as well because of your recommendations. So I already have what you guys call the executive package. I didn’t have the knowledge to really use it all correctly, but everybody in my office already thinks I’m kind of the the fitness nut job. They’ll walk into my office, and I’m watching dailies in front of my TV, but I’m swinging a kettlebell, and they’re like, “What the hell are you doing? And I’m like, I’m trying to stay alive. Yeah. So it’s kind of one of those things. But I want to go more down the path of the problem before we hit the solution because there are some. It’s everybody knows. Oh well, sitting is bad for me. But there’s a lot of information that I found that wasn’t obvious, and one of them I think that I was taking for granted that I always use as an excuse is saying, well, I’m doing 45 minutes of exercise before I go to bed at night, so I’m fine. So, can you talk a little bit about how sitting is so bad for you that even if you’re active, but you’re sitting for long periods of time, they kind of negate each other?
Brenda Walding: Yes. So, yeah, that’s what’s what really stands out here is that you know research is showing that even if you exercise regularly, as recommended by the American Heart Association, but you still engage in six to eight hours of sitting a day. You’re still at risk for developing the chronic disease conditions that I mentioned. So we’re talking the obesity, the heart disease, the type two diabetes. That’s profound, and and I and they speculate that the reason being is that the issue of stagnation that Chad mentioned is when we’re sitting for six to eight hours a day, we’re not moving. There’s physiological changes that are occurring because we’re not moving. We’re meant to. We’re designed to be moving consistently at low, you know, just low intensity movements is is what our body is designed for. And when we’re just stagnant and not moving, there are those physiological changes that are happening, and we’re getting negative impacts on things like I mentioned before: blood pressure, insulin sensitivity, cholesterol, triglycerides, leptin-all those things that are associated with metabolic syndrome or those chronic disease conditions. So, you know, it’s not enough to you know hit the gym really hard for 45 minutes to an hour, and then sit sit eight hours a day, and do that you know on repeat day after day. You’re still going to have negative physiological effects on your body. So what’s really important here is you know yes, go to the gym. That’s a great habit to be to be into. But also, you know, for those that do sit six to eight hours a day, it’s not enough, and you do have to implement some of these strategies of getting up and moving, getting up and walking, but even more specifically, getting up and moving in specific and intentional directions so that we can negate the negative impacts of of adaptation, like Chad mentioned. So we, you know, we address those muscles that are getting weak and elongated, and we address the muscles and structures that are getting tight as well.
Zack Arnold: Well, one thing that I I think my listeners are probably hearing from you guys, and they’re kind of chuckling, is you’re saying, well, if you’re chronically sitting for six to eight hours, and my listeners, a six to eight hour day is like a half day. If I go home, if I go home after eight hours, people are looking at me like, oh, where you got to be? You got something important? Half day today, you know, like, and that’s that’s not a joke. Like by contract, I have 12-hour days, and they usually can be much longer depending on the project. And that’s why I think sitting is such an issue in my specific industry. I don’t remember what the exact number is, but isn’t it something like over 70-5% of people in this country now are now in sedentary jobs and sitting all day. Isn’t it something astronomical like that? I
Zack Arnold: Yeah yeah. So it’s it’s a huge number. So there are all kinds of industries that this can be applied to, not just hours. But what’s so unique about post production is number one, our hours in front of a computer I think are longer than many. I would guess that probably programmers and startups and entrepreneurs are putting in the same kind of hours or even more, but if you’re an accountant or you know doing data entry or you know working in a regular corporate job, you’re not putting in 12 to 14 hours chronically every day. And the other thing that’s very unique about our industry is that we often have people in the room with us sitting behind us all day long. So not only is it harder for us to get out, but you just your cortisol levels go up just because you have somebody over your shoulder literally all day long. So that makes it so much more difficult to say, well, I’m just going to run out for 45 minutes and jog or go to the gym real quick or whatever it is. So I feel like this is a real epidemic in our industry specifically. And I want to go back and talk a little bit. You mentioned earlier about how even if you exercise 40-five minutes to an hour, that’s still going to kind of negate the effects of sitting for six to eight hours. And you also mentioned something about you know for people that are getting older, they’re having a lot of these issues. I ran into a brick wall with these issues, and I was 20-five years old. That’s right out of college, and I was doing exactly what you’re saying. I was going and I was exercising 40-five minutes to an hour, probably four to five days a week. Thought I was in really good shape, and I was having horrible chronic lower back pain, and I was walking around like I was 80. And I’m saying, how is this possible? I just got out of college. I’m young. I’m healthy. I’m athletic, and I can barely stand up straight. And I said, oh, it must be the sitting, right? Yeah. So, so I got a standing desk, and I’ve been standing ever since. I think it’s it’s been at least eight years now, but then I started to realize that just standing isn’t the solution either. Because guess what? Rather than having lower back pain and lumbar pain, I was having all kinds of pain in my feet and in my shins and in my calves. And I was like, “Come on, there’s got to be a better way because I there has to be something I can do because my career demands that I’m in front of a workstation all day, and then that’s when I started doing more low level activity and just finding ways to move around, and then I finally decided to spend the money and I got a treadmill, and now I listen to your show and I’m like, come on, not even that’s the answer. There’s got to be a way to do this. However, I will say, even though that may not be the answer, I can’t find a better way to get as close as I need to be to being active all day long. So, talk to me on the levels of both standing and having a treadmill, where you think that you’ve solved the problem, but even then, there are things that can happen that are detrimental to your health,
Chad Walding: Yeah, yeah. It’s good you mentioned all those because you know we’ve been watching it, sitting here, and we’re seeing this like standing movement, standing desk movement. Now it’s going to a treadmill desk movement, and those are all good things. And I think before that, it was even like sit on the air ball, right? Like sit on the bouncy balls. Yeah,
Zack Arnold: That’s actually where I started. That was my gateway. The very first thing I did was I ditched my Aeron chair, and anybody that’s listened knows that I think that Aeron chairs were designed by Satan himself, and now I have people that can prove that because they are so poorly ergonomically designed for the way the human body sits, and they almost destroyed my body. But yes, that was the gateway for me. As I said, I’m going to get one of those bouncing balance ball chairs, and that was a good start. But then, of course my shoulders started to hurt and my neck started to hurt, and that was just like where I give up. I just can’t sit anymore. But sorry, I interrupted you. Go ahead. Yeah.
Chad Walding: Well, I mean, so you see it right there. This kind of progression of where we’ve been going with it, from the the bouncy ball to the stand up desk, the treadmill desk, but we still haven’t quite figured it out. And the reason is because with all of those, we haven’t fully addressed the issues of stagnation adaptation. So, like with the bouncy ball, for instance, we’re still stagnant. We’re still very likely to, especially likely to slump over if we don’t have enough core strength and endurance throughout the day. It’s just going to happen. It’s only natural. And the same thing with the standing desk, right? So you’re still stagnant, but the upper segment of the body is still hunched over. That mid back is rounded. The shoulders are forward. The necks forward as it looks towards a keyboard. Right. That’s the same position that you’re in when you’re driving in a car. Same position you’re in when you’re sitting on the couch watching TV. The treadmill desk is the best solution in terms of dealing with stagnation. But you’ve still got adaptation with the upper segment, like with the with the same thing. But you’re moving more, so you’re less likely to have problems with stagnation. But the issue with all these things is is still just not being addressed. It’s that we need more intentional, specific movement throughout the workday, and then consider things like your posture, your musculoskeletal frame, to make sure you do those. And a lot of times, you mentioned earlier exercising. You were like, I exercise, you know, an hour, 90 minutes a day. How am I still having these problems? We mentioned what Brenda talked about earlier with the studies of, you know, even though you you sit six to eight hours a day, you’re still going to be at risk for all those problems. But a lot of times, when people exercise, they still don’t exercise in the right direction, so they’re contributing to that problem. So take, for instance, someone who gets on the elliptical and kind of slumps over as they read their magazine, or they get on a cyclist or a bike or something like that, and they’re still slumped over. Their their back is rounded. So it’s under really understanding the importance of structural balance and making sure that you’re prescribing your exercises in such a way that everything lends itself to a more upright body with a good posture where everything’s aligned. It’s so critical, and doing that with movement is is the only way that I think we’re going to get past this. That’s why we came up with the program.
Brenda Walding: Yeah, we felt like it was really important too in our book, a sitting solution. It’s not just that we’re giving solutions and telling people to do stuff. It’s in particular exercises. It’s really important that people understand and they’re educated on what happens in that adaptation process. What muscles tend to get weak and tight, so that you can go from head to toe and really understand what needs to be addressed. So that as you understand the principles, you know you don’t have to have the book in front of you, and you can be you know elsewhere and know that you’re sitting for six six hours and know that you need to do some of these corrective exercises and know that hey, if I’m going to be sitting and looking at my computer, I you know I need to really do you know these chin tucks so that I can stretch out my suboccipital muscles at the base of my skull so I don’t get headaches. So really understanding the why behind it and understanding what the adaptation. Process from from head to toe is important, so that’ll really that’ll really kind of elevate your ability to take care of your body long term.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and that’s one of the reasons that I think that this program is so beneficial is that for years I was kind of under the I was kind of in the mindset of oh wait okay my lower back hurts really bad so I’m going to bring in a ball and I’m going to roll it out until it feels better, and then oh man, my shoulders are really sore, so I need to I need to look up a specific stretch to hit this one muscle that hurts. And I wasn’t realized that this was chronic, and like you said, my body was just adapting. So I know that there are just a lot of people that will have a certain issue, like you know, with the ergonomics of sitting at a keyboard all day. I have a lot of friends that have wrist issues and wear wrist braces. It’s like, well, I just I need to find a wrist stretch that I can use when my wrist starts to hurt. And what I love about your program is you’re saying no, no, no, don’t do it that way. You need to find a way to do it on a regular basis. And that’s kind of a big a big thing with my program as well. Is that I’m trying to find the root cause of whatever the problem is, as opposed to treating a symptom, so talk talk a little bit about the concept of the red flag and the fork in the road because this to me was the thing that just jumped out of your book that really really struck a nerve with me.
Chad Walding: Yeah, absolutely. So that’s something we started to see a lot in the clinic when we sat down with patients with pain and listened to their story and how things started with them. So it generally went something like, you know, I started having this pain, and you know what I did is I took a pain pill because that’s what the commercial on the TV told me to do, and I took that pain pill and I didn’t feel that pain anymore. But then I kind of kept going, and all of a sudden the pain came back. But this time it was worse. So now I went to my doctor. Then my doctor gave me an injection, and then I didn’t feel anything at all there, you know, and I couldn’t I couldn’t quite move my arm much, but still I couldn’t feel anything, so I was moving in the right direction, right. And then something happened where they did get into an accident by trying to lift something up, and because they had such a big structural imbalance, and then it lends itself to surgery, and surgeries do not always go well, and they’re very costly, and only leads to more pain pills to get yourself out of that acute pain, right? But the issue, if we go back to that very first instance of when that that patient experienced that pain, what they could have done was gotten to the root of the problem right away, and the root of the problem is typically poor positions, or structural imbalances, or a poor movement pattern. Like if you address those things, then you’re you’re going to address the root of the problem, and you would never have to take that pain pill that did the damage to your intestinal lining. You would never have to get that injection, which ignored the problem, and you would never have to get that surgery, which cost your insurance company and you and the collective whole a whole lot of money, time, and suffering, you know. So, like, we’re we’re in this health crisis as far as a financial aspect. We’re we’re in this position because we’ve been doing exactly that. We’ve been chasing symptoms and not getting the root of the problem. And this extends far beyond just the sitting. I’m talking about how we’re eating, how we’re moving, how we’re thinking, our stress levels, our digestion. All those things point to the key issues that are that are manifesting themselves in all these separate issues that we’re seeing. We tend to look at them and say, “Ah, this is a shoulder problem, or this is a hip problem, and it’s really not. It’s a position sitting problem, or it’s a it’s a food environmental problem that’s contributing to these things. And we’re also learning it’s so integrative; one affects the other in so many different ways when you consider things like inflammation and gut health and insulin sensitivity and all that. So as practitioners, I think, and really people, I think it’s it’s people’s job right now if they really want to get healthy in this next generation is to find out you know really look at your problems. What is really causing this problem? Is it the surface that you’re focusing on, and just treating the symptoms, or are you really doing everything you can to get to the root of the problem? And what we’re trying to do here is really put a nail in the coffin in terms of, you know, tackling that sitting problem, making sure everybody has the tools and awareness of how to fix this.
Zack Arnold: Like I’ve said already, I’m sure that I’m already sounding like a broken record, but I’m so excited. This to me is a really, really good solution. I’m so excited about this because, frankly, you guys save me a lot of work. So I just and plus you have a lot more experience than I do. I’m just a guy that’s trying to figure all this out, and you guys actually have things like degrees and education. You know that’s kind of important when you’re dealing with the human body. So I want to talk about two people. There’s person A and there’s person B. Person A is me 10 years ago, who was 20-five years old and going down this path, but not there yet. And then Person B is somebody that is obese, that is probably 40-five to 50 years old, and is well down this road of pain pills and you know, like having all these chronic issues. Tell me about what each of those people can do to say, all right, I’m going to take back my life. What what are the different approaches? Because that’s I really have a wide gamut of of audience where I’m going to have both of those people listening, and I want to feel like neither of them are excluded in the conversation. And you may have the same answer for both, but talk to me about what person A and person B. Can do to start going in the right direction.
Chad Walding: Yeah, I’d say the foundation for both of them is is nutrition. It’s making sure that you’re minimizing toxicity and maximizing nutrition. So that’s getting away of all all junk food, sodas, chips, packaged food, all of that. Like that is foundational because you’re going to start decreasing inflammation and really getting the body back to where it needs to be in terms of its internal environment. Drinking lots of water after that, and I and I’m kind of saying that like this is applicable to both of you because it’s the whole 8020 principle. Like, what are the least things that make the most difference early on? Is is just going for walks, right? Just going for walks for 30 minutes every day, eating well, sleeping well, those things are the foundations that are that are really going to get you there. And after that, when it comes to individualizing things a bit, it’s it’s going to look a little bit different for sure. So when it comes to exercise, your 25 year old self can probably do a little bit more high intensity exercise and and really focus on you know big movements like deadlifting, back squatting, and all that. Someone who’s older, who’s obese, who may have issues with their joints and swelling and inflammation, and all that, they may need to just stick with with walking and doing some simple corrective exercises and stabilizing their core. You know, early on. But for both of you, the foundations of eating well, sleeping well, moving well, drinking lots of water are going to be incredibly important. And and I also think for both of you, it’s incredibly important to learn how to manage stress better. So to calm your mind, to to sort of become more aware of your thoughts and emotions, because that drives so much in our in our actions that we’re not quite aware of. So really getting clear on what it is that you want and kind of who you are by stepping back and watching yourself a bit.
Brenda Walding: Yeah, and also think that you know in terms of sitting, if both of those person A and person B are both chronic sitters, you know, doing these exercises in the sitting solution, finding which we have you know five different you know programs depending on your workspace, figuring out what what works best for your situation and addressing the chronic sitting piece, where you are moving throughout the day and using some of these tools that were given in our book is going to be applicable for whether you are, you know, a pipe hitting athlete, young, or you are obese and you know not very well versed in exercise. There’s something for everyone, and just with the whole concept of moving every 30-530, to 40-five minutes for a period of two to four minutes in the using the exercises and the little programs that we’ve given in the in the book is going to be helpful.
Chad Walding: Yeah, that’s one more thing I want to say is like for someone who’s obese, the the main thing there is to not get hurt, I’ve seen a lot of obese people try to run the marathon the first day, and they get hurt, and they just they give up because they it doesn’t feel good, and they get very hopeless. So that’s why I really stress just food, sleeping, and walking, and managing your stress early on before you really start to win the marathon.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I would I definitely agree with all of that. One thing that I would add to whether you are person A or person B is that I have a lot of people that are coming to me now, and the most common question I’m getting via email and via the forums is, “All right, I’m fed up with sitting. Can you recommend a standing desk? And then I have to kind of give the caveat of, “Well, I do recommend standing, but you want to make sure that you’re not just standing and that you’re moving more. And this may sound like a shameless plug because one of my sponsors is Geek Desk, but it’s actually not because I sought them out, not the other way around. My belief is that if you’re really gonna hit this and you’re gonna take care of this problem, it doesn’t matter if you’re person A or person B. You need to get an adjustable desk, and the reason for that is it allows you to both sit and stand. Because one thing that I see all the time is people come to me and say, “Oh yeah, I tried standing. It just didn’t work for me. My feet started to hurt. My lower back started to hurt, and it just it wasn’t for me. I’m like, “Okay, well, how long did you try it? Um, about 45 minutes. Like, well, of course, for the first 45 minutes, you’re going to be uncomfortable. It took me like a week to adjust, and I was doing just standing. But if you can get an adjustable desk, and Geek Desk has these, IKEA now has an adjustable version. These are becoming very common. Then you can dictate how much you’re sitting or standing. And for me, I don’t stand all day long. I will usually in the afternoon maybe sit for half an hour, put the desk back up, you know, walk on the treadmill again. That’ll take another half hour, 40-five minutes, and I’ll sit down again, of course, on the the bouncy balance ball chair that everybody makes fun of me for. Sorry, but I’m moving around all the time. So when people say, “Well, hey, do you have a really cheap hack where I can just set a bunch of stuff on my desk and stand all day? and I’ll say, “Yeah, here’s here’s a place to go. You can do it for $10 but you need to know that this still is not a long-term solution, so I’m a big advocate of making sure that you’re, you know, getting up, sitting down, getting up, sitting down, moving around, sitting in different positions. Like sometimes I’ll, you know, be on my laptop and sitting in, you know, in a cross-legged position against a wall. Like I’m, I’m changing it up all the time. I’m like a squirrel in my office. I never sit still. You know, so that that’s something that that I personally advocate. But now, what I’m going to be advocating to everybody that emails me is the sitting solution. So we’ve been complaining enough about all the problems. Talk to me specifically about your solution and break it down piece by piece, package by package, because the way that it’s organized is very intuitive, very easy to learn and follow, and implement into a daily routine. So let’s break down your solution.
Chad Walding: Yeah. So like what we mentioned, how the body adapts, right? Like certain muscles are getting tight and short. Certain muscles are getting elongated and weak. So we identify what those are. We make it. We want you to understand that. So for instance, the neck, which is always protruding forward, looking on our phones, looking at our computers, always translating forward. The priority there is to start moving it back into what we call a chin tuck or a chin retraction. The pecs, which are shortened and tight, need to be opened up. The thoracic spine, the mid back, which is always bent forward, needs to be extended in the opposite direction. The core, which is being shut off the glutes that are being shut off; those areas really need to be strengthened and prioritized while you’re in your workday. The hip flexors and the hamstrings both get extremely tight because they’re in shortened positions when we’re sitting, and the ankles lose a lot of mobility. So that’s not all of it, but those are some of the big things that pop up right away. So what we’ve done is we’ve we’ve identified 70 different exercises that target those specific areas, right? All these areas that are imbalanced. And what we did then is take those 70 exercises and divide them up into five different programs that people can do throughout the workday. So you’ll have a schedule where it says, you know, it’s it’s 840-five clock goes off. You do this two to four minute routine, and that two to four minute routine is typically two to three of these specific movements back to back to back. So it’s it’s kind of a real quick short workout, not the kind of workout where you’re sweating and all huffy puffy, but just enough to to get those muscles from adapting in a negative way, and just enough to prevent stagnation, and then at 9:30 the clock goes off again. There’s another workout for you. You know, 10:15 there’s another one, and it goes throughout the day until it’s over. And then we try to create five different programs for every possible workspace scenario. So some people may be working in cubicles, like in a corporate office, where it’s not appropriate to have kettlebells, and they don’t have much room. So we have something for them where they they can do anything, do something without any equipment at all. We have something for entrepreneurs who have like what you have, Zack, like a foam roller, a kettlebell, a resistance band, a lacrosse ball, which is our executive program, which really lets you get the benefit of everything because you have modalities to help you out, and then we have something for travelers, so people who are forced to sit for long periods of time, like truck drivers, or people who’ve been traveling on the plane, like a 10-minute routine they can do to negate the effects of sitting in that way. So we really wanted to, because we we understand the objections that people have, like I don’t have this, I don’t have that. We try to get rid of all the reasons why they couldn’t do something, and then give them all the tools so they could do it. And each exercise has a written description, like a page written description of content that describes it and what it’s for, and some key points, and along with pictures. But we also have videos embedded within the ebook that you can you can see the videos, and also as far as the workouts, you can just click on that, follow along, and you’ll hear audible cues as well as well as visual cues on what you need to focus on. So that’s kind of that’s where we’re at. But it’s a great option for people to do anybody. It doesn’t matter if you’re a high-level athlete or or just getting started in your in your health and fitness journey. It’s appropriate for everybody because it’s really an issue that affects everybody, and it’s not just sitting. It’s that we live in this sort of flexion-based society. That you know, like I mentioned, we’re we’re sitting in cars, we’re sitting on our on our couches, we’re always sitting and eating. You know, we’re very rarely up and moving like what we’re designed to. And these these past 100 years have really changed all that.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, I can say based on all the recommendations that you have in there, there are so many of them that I-it’s almost like the Matrix where I just want to take your book and put it on a chip and stick it in my brain and already be done. Because I know that when I do this for the next one to three months, I’m going to be like, “Oh my God, where has this been? But I just-I want it now. I just want to go through all of it now and just you know feel better because I-I can already tell from looking through the exercises and going through the program, that this is something I personally, being totally selfish, have wanted for a long time, and it’s really going to become a cornerstone of the challenge groups that I work with. Because every single person in my group, in all of my groups, they’re all sitters. That’s what everybody does, and I always recommend trying to stand to get more active. But I never have a concrete way to do that. So this is going to kind of be week one of the fitness and post program is get the sitting solution, go through these steps, and then let’s start talking about ways to get further activity. But this to me is a a really good start, and I know that my first step was after reading this. Like I said, I already had a lot of the stuff, but the one thing that I didn’t have was the lacrosse balls, and I bought the two lacrosse balls and I taped them to. And I rolled up my spine. Oh my God, was that a fun experience? You you watch the videos and you’re like, oh yeah, they’re just sitting there, they’re rolling around. Oh, I’m getting this knot out. I swear to God, I was in labor. Wow, like I boy did I identify a lot of major issues because I said, yep, there’s something going on in my back. I gotta fix. So that was a tremendous experience, though. Like you, you walk away from it and you feel like you’ve lost 10 pounds, you know. And that’s one tiny exercise. So for anybody that’s listening that has never done any of this, that’s never swung a kettlebell in your office, or has never used a foam roller, or used a Theraband or a resistance band, like just doing these little things. If you’ve never done any of them after two to three minutes? You’re like, whoa! Wait a second. I feel better, and I have a little bit more blood going to my head, and I feel it’s so. To me, it’s the kind of thing that when your body’s ready to reach for that next cup of coffee, you can just do this instead for two to four minutes, and you’re going to say, maybe I don’t need the coffee. Maybe I just needed to get the activity instead. So that’s that’s something that I’m really excited about. One of the main reasons that I gravitate to this program so heavily is, like you said, the videos. Because a lot of times I get there are internet marketers everywhere now, and I get on everybody’s email list. So when I wake up in the morning, I have like 35 to 40 newsletters in my inbox, which in and of itself drives me crazy. But it says open your hips or do this or that, and then you go and you go to this website that’s like 40-seven pages long that gives you the same message over and over and over and over, and then you get the PDF and it lists all these great exercises, and that’s it. So if you don’t know what the exercise is, you’re thinking, I don’t know how to do this. With yours, all you have is a PDF document with links, and it goes right to a video to see the exercise, which to me makes it so brain dead easy to do.
Zack Arnold: So I’ve gone through some of these routines, and I said, “All right, I want to do this now, huh? What what do they mean by this? I click on it, bam! There’s a video of the two of you demonstrating it, and within 30 seconds, I know exactly what it is that I need to do. So it’s it’s so simple. So thank you so much for putting this kind of time into this resource.
Chad Walding: Yeah, you’re welcome. It was a it was a pleasure. We you know having worked with people, we in the clinic and in the gym, we sort of got a good sense of how we can make it easy for them, and that’s what we wanted to do with the videos because it really helps when you can have someone there instructing you on what to do and what not to do, and you can follow along because we’re both sticklers on movement. I am a stickler on movement in the gym. Like if I see you squat or put something over your head or or even how you sit, like we we can see injuries before they happen. So the quality of the movement is so important, and we really wanted wanted to make that available to people.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I think this is this is the way to do it in our our two minute attention span society. If if there’s one reason why somebody’s not going to do something, they’re just not going to do it, and you’ve kind of eliminated all those reasons. Whether it’s well, I don’t understand what the move is, or oh, it’s not explained well enough, or whatever, or it’s not in a package. It’s easy enough to digest. Like you’ve kind of fixed all those issues, but the the one the one issue that I want to talk about that I know is going to be the biggest hurdle to this is not the information, is not being able to do it, it’s being able to stick with it. And this to me is really a focus of my program and my challenge groups is not only giving the information but learning the strategies to stick with it. So I have something that I’m starting to implement, but if you guys want to talk about your ideas that you have for how people can actually stick to it, I would love to hear those, and then I’m going to share kind of the the strategy that I have with my groups.
Chad Walding: Yeah, well, you know, it all depends on your work environment too. If if you have a community of people that are doing it together, it makes a lot easier to stick with it because everybody holds everybody accountable, and it becomes normal to move around. Because right now, it’s not normal to move around in the workspace. It’s normal to sit in front of your computer and just talk on the phone and not move at all, except for when you get up and and go get lunch. So a lot of times people will will kind of feel weird when they’re moving around in the workspace. But that’s kind of our whole vision is that we have to develop a new paradigm in terms of what the workspace looks like. We’ve been thinking about money and power and all that. We’ve been ignoring things like well-being. We’ll work better and we’ll make more money if we feel better. You know, we’ll be more creative. We’ll be happier people. It’s just incredibly important that we take action on that because nothing happens if we don’t take action. And you know, a lot of people have success with doing like just staying with it for 30 days, just saying no what, no matter what, I’m going to do this for 30 days. People do well with that in the food area, like you know, 30 day nutrition challenges. But I think it’s also an option to do something like this for 30 days, or even I think 63 days. I think 63 days is something about where willpower. They did studies on that. Like willpower, willpower will take you to 60-three days, but after that, it’s like a you have to develop a habit. You really have to turn into a habit. But one of the things we say is like you’ll notice immediately, like what you were saying, when certain muscles turn on and you you get in that better position, you feel more energy, you feel like. You feel less pain all of a sudden. Once you have a noticing like that, it’s hard to not notice it anymore. You know because like when I’m sitting in the car and my head’s protruding forward, it’s very easy for me to notice when my neck is in a compromised position. If I’m sitting in a seminar and I’m sort of slouching a little bit and rounding my back, it’s very easy for me to recognize that I need to push my hips all the way back, sit on my sit bones, and align my spine. So, a lot of people are in poor positions and experiencing pain, but they don’t notice why. And what this is going to do is help you really notice why you’re doing it or why you’re feeling the pain you’re feeling, and you’re going to have the education and the knowledge of what to do in order to negate that. So after a while, it becomes it becomes a habit in the same way that brushing your teeth becomes a habit, right? You brush your teeth so you know you you do it so you won’t get cavities, you won’t get gum disease, and all that stuff. We call this stuff spinal hygiene. So it’s the same kind of kind of thing here. Like you do these things so you don’t have pain, so you optimize your posture and your position, and you look better, feel better, perform better, and so that you know when you’re older, you don’t have to be crouched over a rolling walker, you know, for your whole life. So
Brenda Walding: I think along those lines, like you know, what Chad mentioned, like you don’t start brushing your teeth when you get cavities, and when you brush your teeth, you take care of your teeth as preventative measure. And I think what’s important is you know, yes, you know, you can skip right to the exercises and start doing the program, but what I really emphasize people to do is really you know read the first part of the book and understand the you know the clinical research studies that are behind some of these thoughts on you know chronic sitting being linked to chronic disease conditions. You can’t wait until you have heart disease, you know, and then you know start doing these things. You’re doing these things these simple simple exercises and simple movements and simple strategies in order to prevent chronic diseases. I mean we we work with very ill people you know people that are have heart disease and type two diabetes and cancer and it’s well worth it to spend you know two to four minutes every hour to prevent something like that and to to clean up your eating than to be in that position of living in that chronic disease state. Not a good
Chad Walding: Experience. No,
Brenda Walding: It’s it’s it’s hard. So when you people say, well, it’s really hard to to stop every you know every hour and do two to four minutes of work. It’s not it’s not hard compared to what you know you’re going to experience if you’re developing these these chronic disease conditions and losing your functional ability, you know, at a very young age. So these are all strategies that just take a little bit of effort and pay off in spades in the long run. So really understand, you know, why you’re doing this, and I think that it really helps. At least it helps me and a lot of our clients really understand the importance of sticking with it, because it may not be something a lot of people are inclined to start a program because they feel horrible or because they are in pain, and you know that is that’s great. But if you can even start, if you know you’re a chronic sitter, starting this before you have all those issues and preventing that, you know, and sticking with it with that knowledge, like, hey, I’m I’m doing something really wonderful for my body and for my life. I think that’s really powerful.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, and the the further step that I want to go, even beyond all that, which is fantastic, is you had said kind of like you know fighting willpower and you know trying to to gut through it, and you know, to me, it’s all about trying to build that new habit and just the circuitry in the brain, so you’re not even thinking about it anymore. Have you guys heard of the the app or the platform called Lyft, L-I-F-T? Not the guys with the pink mustaches on their cars. No, I haven’t. Okay, well, this is something you guys are gonna love because I just discovered this a few weeks ago, and I’m now implementing it into my group. Basically, what this is is a habit tracking app. Are you guys familiar with the Seinfeld productivity method or the idea of you know the not breaking the chain? Have you heard about that? No. Basically, there’s this productivity method, and I’ll have a link to it in the show notes. But goes way back, and I’m probably going to get the story wrong, so I’m paraphrasing, and it’s totally anecdotal. So if anybody’s listening and saying that’s not how it went, well, I’m admitting that it probably isn’t. I’m just trying to get the core of it. But there was a there was a comic that approached Jerry Seinfeld years ago and said, “How do you have all this great material, and how do you keep coming up with it day after day and just being consistent? And he said, “What I do, and this is before the days of all the technology we have now, is he put a full year long calendar on his wall, and he would put a red X on a day when he wrote, and he had a red X on every single day, which meant that he was writing every day. But the idea is that you kind of become addicted to this chain, and you don’t want to break the chain. And it’s a really great way to start building new habits. And there’s an app that I found called Lift, and again, it’s L-I-F-T. And the idea behind it is that you can set specific activities, and you can set yourself up as a coach. So I’ve set myself up as a coach. I can create a new activity, and for example, we’re recording this today. It’s the the first of December, and this will be coming out a little bit later. But I have these 30 day challenges where I’m having people in my community do 30 push ups a day, or 30 squats a day, or whatever. I’m sure you guys have heard about these things in other organizations. So it’s not that uncommon, but how do you actually stick to it? And I couldn’t find a way to actually aggregate all the people in my industry that were doing it and get encouragement from other people. So what you do is you set an activity, people can join the activity, and you can see when everybody checks into it. So I just go onto the app, I click a little you know check check mark, and it says I’ve done it for the day, but everybody else that’s joined that activity can also see whether or not I’ve done it for the day. And there’s a chat function, so if somebody is like, “Hey, I was trying to do my 30 squats for today, but I have a question about doing squats in my office, everybody that’s joined that activity can see it. So number one, it’s a great way to just have that you know proverbial long string of red X’s and not break the chain and build long term habits, but also, like you’ve said, have a community do it because the the hardest thing about our industry specifically is that we don’t know anybody in person. As an editor, you sit by yourself in a dark enclosed room all day long, and you see your assistant editor, and you see a producer, and you see a coordinator, and that’s it. Like we don’t network, we don’t socialize, and we’re not. We don’t have like big meetings with big office groups. Like it’s mostly small companies, and everybody’s in their own little world. So trying to build a community around this has been extremely hard.
Zack Arnold: But I find that through technology, which everybody in my industry embraces and understands, that’s how I’m building community. So when I found this app, it was just like just the sky opened, the lights came down from the sky, and I said this is the way to do it. So even though I haven’t done it yet, hopefully by the time the show comes out, I will have. But I’m going to be building lift activities around the sitting solution specifically, so you get an alert on your phone at whatever time you want. So for example, like for me, I have one that goes off at 10, which is right when I go into work. It says, “All right, you’ve been sitting in your car for an hour and 15 minutes. You need to do this 10-minute routine. And if you finish it, here’s a check mark. And everybody that decides they want to do this morning routine will see that I did it, and I’ll see everybody else that did it. And then I can set another one at 1130 and one at 1230 and whatever intervals that I want, but your phone will ding, it will go off, and you’ll say, “Ooh, I want to put another check mark, and I want everybody to see that I have a check mark that I did my four-minute stretching routine before launch. So I highly, highly recommend you guys check it out because it’s a really brilliant platform. It’s a little bit young, pretty new, and there’s a lot of stuff that I think they can still implement. But the idea of it is really sound, and I’m really excited about it, so I think you guys will like it too.
Brenda Walding: Yeah, I think that is awesome. I think it works really, really well hand in hand with the Sitting Solution program because, you know, still within our program, you know, you are setting your own alarms to go off every 45 minutes. So implementing that lift program, you could you could easily, you know, have that set up every 40-five minutes to start to ding your phone, like you said, and and to implement the the programs every 40-five minutes. So that actually would work perfectly. Yeah,
Chad Walding: I love the group thing. It’s amazing how accountable you’ll be to yourself and your group when you commit to something. You tell that group you’re going to do something. Man, that’s that’s yeah. You do it every time because you you don’t want to look bad in front of the group or let the group down, right?
Zack Arnold: Yeah, yeah, and I found that with my challenge groups, because what I’ve done is I’ve set up leaderboards like with Fitbit. So everybody in a challenge group is required to get an activity tracker, and we’re all in a leaderboard in a private challenge group, and they’ll say, “Oh man, this guy got 14,000 steps today. All right. Well, I guess I should go get a walk because I don’t want them to see that I only walked 4000 But had they not had the accountability to the group, they wouldn’t have done anything. So everything that I build, I try to build around a digital community because there’s no such thing as in-person community in in this industry. It’s just it’s almost impossible to build. But through through technology, it’s very easy to build a community now. And this app and your book are were kind of the two components that I was missing. That now that I have both of them, when I can combine them, I really feel like this can apply to just about everybody in my industry now. And there’s no excuse for why it’s too hard or too expensive or whatever it is. Yeah, that’s
Chad Walding: Great. You know what, Zack? If you can link us up to that somehow, because we’d love to see what questions people have, and then what we can do is answer those questions in like YouTube videos, and then send them back to the group. That way, everybody keeps up to date on on what’s going on, and we know where the missing links are, and we fill them up as fast as we can.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, that’s I think that’s a great idea. Like I said, I’m still kind of learning the ins and outs of the the platform, but I would love to get you guys involved in whatever activities I set up and have you guys as a resource and a reference. And I’m already actually linking to a couple of your how-to videos just to kind of get people going, seeing your logo and saying, “Oh, what is this? That’s just for the the challenge that came out today, just kind of helping people understand the proper form for a good squat and how to do a deadlift squat with a kettlebell, just for basic stuff. But if anybody that’s listening is interested in learning more about the sitting solution, I’m going to set up a link at fitnessimpost.com/sitting. But if people want to go to you directly, what’s the best way for them to get a hold of you and learn more about this product and you guys?
Chad Walding: Our website. Is sittingsolution.com. So there we have a few blog articles and a place where you can purchase the book and find out more about us as authors. And another place is Sitting Solution TV on YouTube. So I think we have about 15 or 18 videos up there, but kind of some a lot of the things that we’re talking about here, so you can get an idea and start trying some things out on your own in a way to get some resistance bands and foam rollers and all that, so you can start incorporating things there. So, and we’ll be adding to that all the time. So basically, we take a lot of those videos on YouTube and and the concepts and put those in the book, and everything’s nice and packaged where it’s very easy to follow. So, but yeah, sittingsolution.com and Sitting Solution TV on YouTube.
Zack Arnold: Yeah, that’s great. And if anybody that’s listening is also saying, “Oh, well, how do I get a foam roller? How do I get you know trigger point therapy balls or kettlebells or whatever? I’ll also provide links in the the show notes for this episode as well as all the the links to get a hold of you guys. So I’m super super excited about the fact that we finally connected, and I have a feeling that you guys will be back, and I really want this this book to become a cornerstone of my entire program. So thank you so so much for doing that and for being on the show.
Brenda Walding: Yeah, well, thank you for having us. Thanks for all the work you’re doing. It sounds like you’re doing some really great things in your community.
Zack Arnold: I cannot stress enough how excited I am about the fact that you guys did this. Like I literally, this is going to be step one. You join fitness in post. You got to read this book before you can even talk to me. Oh, great man! All right. Well, I’m going to let you guys go about your day, and I’m going to go about mine and go sit in a horrible flexion-prone position in my car for an hour and a half. It’s funny because I have a really horrible commute, and I was working from home for like five to six months before I got on my current job, I had no lower back problems, no stiffness anywhere. I’m standing and I’m on a treadmill all day, and I still have horrible lower back issues just because I’m stuck in my car for almost three hours a day.
Chad Walding: Yeah, so
Zack Arnold: It’s just it’s impossible to get around. Like, and there’s I’m assuming that you guys don’t have special exercises where I can you know be driving and be standing at the same time. They need standing cars. That’s what they
Chad Walding: Need. Yeah, you know, you know what is really important to do when you get done sitting for a long time, or like in the car, are those press ups where you’re on the floor, where your chest is on the floor, and your hands are under your shoulders, and you press up to do a cobra like yoga move. Yeah, you keep your hips on the ground, and and exhaling at the top and getting the complete in range. So I showed that in in one of the videos, but doing that and some bridges,
Zack Arnold: Right? That
Chad Walding: Should get you moving in the right direction. Yeah,
Zack Arnold: That that’s usually what I’ll do in the morning. I’ve been doing yoga for probably like eight or 10 years now, and that’s literally one of the first things I do when I get in the office. Is I shut the door. I’ll do a couple of downward dogs, and then I’ll just hold cobra pose. You know, just I’ll do it for five breaths. Go back to downward dog. Go back to cobra. Go back to downward dog to really open up my chest. Because, like you said, even though I’m on a treadmill, my chest and my shoulders and my upper body are still hunched over, and I’m really noticing the loss of flexibility that I’m getting. So I’m basically almost everything I’m focusing on is just how do I open up the chest again and open up my shoulders because you know because I always used to think well yeah I can I can touch my toes I can actually usually palm the floor so I must be flexible right then I’m realizing now that I’m older well yeah that means that my hamstrings are flexible it doesn’t mean that my hips are flexible or my shoulders or my neck or anything else and I have horrible stiffness and pain in my neck and in my upper shoulders, even though I’m on a treadmill. And after reading your book, I’m like, ah, now I see the problem. So now that’s something I can focus on, and I have the exercises to do
Brenda Walding: It. Yeah, you got to um, you know, the spinal hygiene is really getting your cervical, thoracic, lumbar spine bent back or into extension every single day. So you know instead of bending forward, it’s like we really have to work on bending our spine, our neck, and our thoracic spine back. So those chin tucks, the chin tucks with extension, the thoracic extension, and the press ups are like the key things to be doing every day for your spine. Right,
Zack Arnold: And I realize I keep trying to to get rid of you guys, and I can’t shut up. That’s how excited I am about this. That’s
Chad Walding: Good.
Zack Arnold: That’s my own personal struggle: is getting out of the car after being in it for an hour and a half, and getting to work, and be like, “Oh God, I’m already stiff and tired, and I haven’t even started. So that that’s how I’ve been mitigating it. It sounds like I’m on the the right track. So, and you’re going to be hearing more from me. I’m going to kind of, I’m I’m just not gonna stop bothering you two, so
Chad Walding: Keep ringing, man. We really appreciate your support.
Brenda Walding: We do.
Zack Arnold: To access the show notes for this episode, please visit fitnessandpost.com/27. If you enjoy this episode, please take a moment to subscribe to the show on iTunes and give us a rating and review. This will help spread the show to even more people it can help. And if you leave a review on iTunes, we will read it on the show. And if you hear us read your review and you contact us, you’ll receive a free package of That Studio Atmospheres, an awesome collection of sound design elements valued at $99. To learn more about this amazing package, visit. Atstudio.com. Thank you for listening. Be well.
Episode Credits
This episode was edited by Kristin Martin, and the show was executive produced by Kanen Flowers. We are a member of the THAT STUDIO podcast network.
The music in the opening and closing of the show is courtesy of Dorian Cheah from his brilliant album ARA.