Zack Arnold

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What Does It Take to Be An “ACE” Editor?

About Episode

“What is ACE, how do I become a member, and what are the benefits?” are common questions I’m asked often by fellow film editors (that I’ve also asked myself).

Beyond simply breaking down the criteria for entry into the most prestigious organization in the post-production industry, in this episode I speak with Steve Rivkin, ACE President and editor of such films as Avatar, Pirates of the Caribbean, Ali, and many more, about what it really takes to be considered an elite editor, whether or not you belong to ACE. We break down how Stephen broke into the film industry without every having an assistant editor credit to his name, the secret to getting hired by any director or producer, how to transition from assisting to editing, and much more.

If you’ve ever been curious about the inner-workings of what it really means to work as an editor at the highest levels and the psychology necessary to succeed, this episode is for you.

Transcript

Zack Arnold: I’m here today with Steve Rivkin, and this is an amazing opportunity for me as somebody who has been passionate about film editing. Basically since I was barely out of diapers, I’ve wanted to be a film editor all my audience knows, probably since I was like seven or eight years old, and to be on the other end of the microphone with a guy that cut some of the films from my childhood that I loved and has now worked on films such as The Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy, as well as a little tiny movie called Avatar. This is a tremendous pleasure. So thank you so much for being here today.

Steve Rivkin: My pleasure to be with you,

Zack Arnold: And it’s so worth all the time and effort because it as is usually the case when I’m trying to get other editors on the podcast, it usually takes, on average, between three and six months, because our schedules are so bad, insane, it is so hard to get people on this show, so I appreciate the fact that you’ve taken time out of your schedule. You’re probably going to work after we’re done with this.

Steve Rivkin: No, no, I’m I’m done for the day, but it has been a bit crazy these days, with a lot of a lot of plates spinning,

Zack Arnold: Yes, and that’s something we’re definitely going to talk about, because this show goes well beyond just the nuts and bolts of editing and the art of editing. I really like to talk about the lifestyle trying to find some semblance of work life balance. There’s a lot more to it than just the craft itself, and I like to talk about that, but before we go down that rabbit hole, and there are other areas that I want to talk about, just because you’re so involved in the editing community and so influential in it, but before we go down that road, I just want people that know, obviously they’re going to recognize your credits, but I want to talk a little bit about your journey to get where you are. And one area that I want you to hit on, which is really interesting is that if you go on to your IMDB page, I don’t see any credits as an assistant. So I would love to know what your journey looks like, and how you got from just breaking into where you are now.

Steve Rivkin: Well, it is, it is interesting that you noticed that I started straight out of film school at the Minneapolis College of Art and Design, where I grew up in the Midwest. And I started in the commercial, industrial field as an editor, and I gradually, after working a number of years there and making contacts with different directors. I met up with a director who asked me to cut a feature, a low budget feature that he was writing, directing, producing. He was going to edit it, he was going to shoot it. He said, Maybe I shouldn’t edit it. I said, I think that’s probably a good idea. We had done a little work together, and he knew what I could do and asked me to cut it. And then it went on from there. So for the first five or six years of my feature career, I was going back and forth between doing commercials, industrial films, short documentaries, and coming to Los Angeles working in the movie business. So I never really was an assistant. As an as we know assistants in Los Angeles, I was my own assistant, so I knew about sinking dailies and various duties of assistance. But when I when I came out here on my first job, I was told that an assistant had been hired for for me. And I said, Okay, well, what does he do? It was like one of those things where, okay, well, now I have to learn what an assistant’s job is, because I’ve only done everything myself.

Zack Arnold: It’s funny, because I actually have a not quite the same journey. But first of all, it’s interesting that I didn’t know you were a fellow Midwesterner, but I grew up right outside of Eau Claire, so less than three hours from Minneapolis,

Steve Rivkin: Absolutely.

Zack Arnold: So go Midwest. The The other thing that’s interesting is that people ask me the same question, and they say, I don’t see any assistant work on your resume. And clearly I’ve, you know, have been in the industry a lot less, and certainly don’t have the resume that you do, but I was an assistant, just for a few months in trailers, got bumped up to being a trailer editor. And then every job I got after that was doing editing, even though it was super low budget, and it was, you know, shows that nobody had ever heard of, like some of it even done for free. But I was always editing, and I was always gaining that experience. And I wasn’t really planning on talking about this too much, but as long as I have you on the call here, I would love to know your thoughts on those two different trajectories, because a lot of people feel that, oh, well, you have to be an assistant editor for a minimum of eight years before you can move into the chair. And my feeling was that if you’re going to cut, just go out and cut and get the experience and just do it and learn how to make those neural connections in your brain. So what are your thoughts on this whole like traditional trajectory of becoming an assistant first, versus just getting out and editing?

Steve Rivkin: Well, I think first of all, things have changed quite. A bit in 2017 we’re in a whole different era in terms of how people can access the business. Back in the days when I was breaking in, there was a very conventional way of breaking into Hollywood as an editor, and that was very strict in terms of the union and having to serve your time as an apprentice and an assistant and then move into editing. Well, I had, because I had been editing in the Midwest, and I’d enjoyed the creativity and and the relationship with directors and producers and account executives and ad agency people and clients. It was kind of a strange situation. I found myself out in Los Angeles exploring to see what I could find, and I had some connection somehow with someone on the mash television show. And they said, Well, if you’re willing to move out here, perhaps we could get you a job as an apprentice and and then, you know, maybe you could work so many years at that, and then so many years as an assistant. And the thought of of getting coffee for someone after having spent years actually editing just didn’t appeal to me at all. And I said, Well, thanks, but no thanks, I’ll, I’ll find another way. And I did, obviously, but it was kind of a back door into the business out here, because it was an independent film that was produced in the Midwest and ultimately sold to a distributor here. And the next film that I did became Union during the production, and it was with the same director. So on my second film out here, the first film was actually done in Minneapolis. The second film was the first one for me here, and it unionized, and so I got into the Union on the first film I worked in Los Angeles, so that was a stumbling block for a lot of people back then. That was not for me, because I was very fortunate to have that door open to me. As far as the what you’re asking in terms of the paths, I think that they’re both viable today. In my mind, someone who pursues their passion of editing, and as you say, cuts everything they can get their hands on, I think that that’s a viable way to learn, and many doors have been open. We have avenues where editors emerge from the music video or television, or, you know, apprenticeship or commercials, industrial films. And now, more than ever, we have the, you know, the new media or streaming or blogs, or, you know, all kinds of different internet outlets of production. So there’s, there’s a lot of different ways that people can get experience and you are correct. The more you cut, the more you learn, the more confident you are, the more relationships you build. So I feel that that is absolutely viable, and equally as viable is the path of the traditional assistant working under another editor, providing it’s an editor that can help to mentor that person and give them an opportunity to cut and to to give them little tips and allow that process to happen. And then there are many editors that will endorse, you know, some of the biggest editors around, like Michael Khan. He’s He’s basically stood behind people like Billy Goldenberg or Bruce Green, who came up under his guidance. And he basically said, hire this guy. He’s good, and if he screws up, then you get me to come in and help. So, you know, who would turn that down? You know? I mean, that’s a great launch for an assistant who’s worked under a Master Editor and had an opportunity to have that kind of experience and that kind of champion to push them forward in their career.

Zack Arnold: Well, you mentioned something during that whole conversation about being an assistant, working your way up, that it’s a word that many people might not even recognize anymore, which is the word apprentice. So given that you were the on the board of directors for the motion picture editors guild, that’s a conversation I’m really interested in having about how much. The role of apprenticeship has changed, and this idea that you used to be able to be in the room with the editor, either as an apprentice or an assistant, just based on the way the technology was situated, and nowadays, everybody kind of lives in their own little holes, and we don’t even really have apprentices. And I know that editor recognition and just really, the the idea of educating people about being an editor is very, very near and dear to your heart. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Steve Rivkin: Well, it’s it’s sad but true. But the apprenticeship, either through the apprentice title or assistant title, has all but disappeared in in today’s digital cutting rooms, and it is a problem, because how are we going to pass on the knowledge that was once passed through an assistant or an apprentice in the room with you, helping and watching the process? It just isn’t happening. So there are a number of things that are going on I think that are good. One is that there are mentorship programs through ace, through the motion picture editors Guild, and there are also classes the guild just I actually taught a pilot class a number of months ago at the editors guild where five assistants, five or six assistants, were able to spend two days of a master class at the guild working on their own avids, cutting the same scene and getting tips and guidance from the instructor in the first K in this first pilot program was me and we and we viewed dailies together. We talked about the process, how different ways editors can approach dailies, how they organize it, how they proceed with cutting the scene. And then each of them started cutting the scene, and we had one on one sessions in the other room, I treated them like they were editors and I was basically a director or producer, and gave them notes, had them make changes, had them talked about structure, talked about performance, and ultimately, we reviewed again, And then we reviewed as a group, and everybody was really excited to see each other’s work, and it was a fascinating two days, and very rewarding for me and extremely rewarding for them, because they got an opportunity to do what perhaps they’re not able to do on the Job, and that is edit and get notes make changes just as if they were actually editing the show. And it was a really great program. It continues, and the guild is had tremendous success with this. We had, we have people that sign up for this particular course, and it basically fills up in the first hour or two that it’s that it’s available, but they’re continuing to do it on a regular basis, which I think is fantastic, yeah.

Zack Arnold: And that’s really one of the the main objections or obstacles that I hear from assistants that come to me all the time, either at events, or they send me emails, or they listen to the podcast and they say, I’m so inundated for 16 hours a day with outputs and doing conversions and breaking down dailies, I have no idea how to ever get in the editor’s chair, because I don’t get a chance to work with the editor. I barely talk to him, and I don’t have time to cut scenes because I’m already working 16 hours a day. So what are some suggestions that you have for people that are really trying to move up to that editor’s chair with the way that things work now digitally, it’s making it so difficult.

Steve Rivkin: Well, difficult, but also, there is another side to it, and that is that, you know, it’s not like the olden days where there’s one work print and there’s only one person that can cut it, unless you want to spend the money to print up a whole new set of dailies. So on that, on that side of the coin, you have the the access to the material that you wouldn’t have had before. You would have had to as a film apprentice or assistant. You would have had to wait till somebody gives you physically the film to cut. And that happened. It happened after people worked together for a number of months or even years, and they they built up a trust, they had enough of a relationship that they understood the workflow and the approach to to editing in a style that was similar, and so they had that mentorship, so they could actually do that these days. I think the access to the material is a real plus, because when you know Yes, an assistant’s time is filled with many, many jobs. That didn’t exist at one time, and does fill the day, but there will be times when you can even have a little scene in a folder that you go to when you have a spare hour. Those hours can add up, and then having an editor that’s willing to work with you and look at it and give you comments and talk about various ways that you could perhaps approach it differently based on your experience. That’s invaluable. So I would encourage assistants to in spite of how busy they are, maybe even come in on their own time, on an off day, if they can and experiment and make sure that you’re not doing anything behind an editor’s back. But just say, I want to do this. Would you be willing? You know, because I want to learn. Would you be willing to talk to me about this? I think it’d be really surprising if someone would not be willing to do that under those circumstances.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I agree. And that was really the approach that I took in the few months that I was an assistant at the trailer company. Is I think it was probably my first week, if not my second week. I just went right into my boss, and I went right into the editor as well, and I was doing like I said. It was trailers and TV spots, so it was short form. So I just said, Hey, can I take a hard drive home over the weekend and cut my own version of TV spots? And they were like, you just drove across the country from Michigan, like, a week ago, and you’re asking us to take a hard drive home? And I’m like, Yeah, I want to cut. Like, that’s why I’m here. That’s why I moved to Los Angeles. And I started showing them the cuts that I was doing, and they saw the quality of the work, and that’s what ended up getting me the editing job within four or five months, because there was a project that nobody really wanted to edit, so they threw it to the new kid. But it was because I took that initiative. And that’s what I tell assistants as well, is that no matter how many hours you’re working in the day, if you really want to edit, you got to edit. You can’t just think that putting in the time is enough. You have to do the creative work, make the choices and workshop it with your editor as well, if they’re willing, of course,

Steve Rivkin: Absolutely there. And you know, I mean, you hit on a very important point, there is no substitute for the ambition that someone has and the, you know, the tenacity and and the drive to want something and really want to make sacrifices to get there, there’s a, there’s a real, a tendency to become, I think, comfortable with the idea that I’m working, I’m working a lot of hours. This is good. It’s okay. I’m getting, you know, I’m getting the experience in the cutting room, but there is no substitute for the experience of actually doing it yourself. You can watch a lot, but until you’re faced with those decisions of what to put first and second and third, and where do I go to a close up and and what makes a good cut, and how do I cheat and edit? And you know, if somebody says you have to have a shot in there and it and it’s a mess to try and get it in, how do you do it? How do you solve those problems? How do you make it look like it was intended to be that way? That’s a real challenge. And you don’t know those kind of things, until you’re faced with those situations yourself.

Zack Arnold: Yeah. And I to go even one step further. I agree with all of that, where you you actually have to get your hands dirty and learn how to build a scene firsthand, but where I really can see the inexperience with people that feel like, Oh yeah, well, I put in my time. I’ve given my hours. I’m ready to make the step up. It’s not just doing the creative work in the timeline, it’s having the ability to defend their decisions when somebody else is in the room, because your ability to work a room of people and directors and producers has so much to do with being an editor, and that’s another art form that’s lost on so many people that feel it’s just about the number of hours they have to put in to make that next step.

Steve Rivkin: Oh, yeah, I think, you know, the commitment that is required is pretty serious. And I always joke, you know, when I talk to when I talk to students, and they want to know how long it takes, and everybody wants to get there, everybody wants to get to a certain place faster than maybe even humanly possible. But I always say you have to love the road, because it’s a very long road. And the point is, if you, if you love what you’re doing, you won’t see how long the road is, because you’ll be content. You know, I always found that there was something to be obtained from every single job, even if it was a bad commercial or a stupid industrial film. I learned something either about the craft or I learned about my communication skills and relationship skills. Working with others. And, you know, working in commercials, you get a lot of crazy notes and ideas from people that know nothing about filmmaking. So that was kind of my, you know, I went to film school, but after that, I got a new education on politics and and interaction in in the client, creative relationships. It was really a lesson in sociology and psychology, because it is an amazing study. When you start looking at power and in the creative industries, people that believe that they know what’s best for their product or or how to sell something, when you know what. Basically, we’re just storytellers, whether we’re selling or we’re or we’re communicating story ideas. And you know, I think editing is a there are some parts of it that are intuitive and inherent in your you know your own ability and that that can’t be taught. There are many things that can be taught, but there are things that cannot but personality. And dealing with with people is something that does, I think, get better with experience like everybody’s had an experience of going in and perhaps wouldn’t, inexperience will sometimes allow you to say the wrong thing at the wrong time, and if that backfires on you say, Boy, I’m not doing that again. You know, I’m going to be careful of what I say and how I say it?

Zack Arnold: Well, speaking of that kind of talking about working with directors, what you say, how you say it? Just a very, very short list of some of the people you’ve been in the room with extensively would be people like James Cameron, Gore Verbinski, Michael Mann Ridley, Scott Wolfgang Peterson, like these are guys that are the top of the field worldwide, and you know, they have reputations for being really, really intense. So I would imagine that you have learned some very valuable life lessons about what it takes to manage a room like that. So what are just a couple of anecdotal pieces of advice from being in the room with some of the most intense and creative people in this business.

Steve Rivkin: Well, again, there’s very much a personality that I think your personality enters into how you communicate with people. And obviously, respect is important. These people have earned respect. They deserve respect. And when they reach that level, there’s part of them that wants to be treated like a person, and you know you so you have to, you have to tread between not overdoing it in terms of how you relate to them, because they want the truth. They want you to say what you think. But then again, it comes down to how you say it, when you say it, when you choose to not say anything, but your work speaks for itself. So that’s the prerequisite. But I think that over the years I’ve I’ve definitely learned to wait. One of the things that that, that I think is very important is, is waiting to make sure that what you have to say is this is the right thing to say at that time. And when you’re young and you’re eager and you’re ambitious, I think that a lot of times you just want to speak. You want to you want to get your idea out as quickly as possible and to show them that you know what you’re talking about. That’s not necessarily the right thing to do. I think I’ve observed many people, whether it’s other editors or or producers or studio executives, a lot of them, you know, the first one to talk is not the guy that’s important, it’s the last the last person to talk is usually the person that’s important, you know. So I think waiting before you speak is a is an important thing to to recognize. And it may be that it’s not the right time to give that idea and and I’ve had times when I thought to myself, boy, I’m glad I didn’t say that, because look what’s happened here. This has actually worked. It’s better than what I thought and what I was going to contribute. And I think not being in such a big hurry to give your idea is a really good thing.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I agree with all of that. And I was the quintessential young editor that assumed that, because I watched the dailies, I knew everything, and the director and the producer knew nothing, and I was very clear about sharing it, and that did. Get me very far. And that was a lesson that I learned at like, the ripe old age of 23 or 24 where that approach didn’t work. And I got a really good piece of advice from one of my mentors, Alan bell. And he would say, Listen, if you have something that you just know isn’t going to work, you still give it three shots like you said. You don’t want to just say no right away. So he would gently say, once, listen, you know, I’m not sure about that, I’m definitely going to try it. Let’s work on it together. Let’s see what happens the second time. If it’s still not working, he’ll gently nudge them again. And then if it still isn’t working, he’ll be like guys. I really don’t think this is working, but he said it’s all about being very, very patient, because, like you said, a lot of times a better idea is going to come out of the discussion than what you think your idea might be. But it takes the patience and the time to get there.

Steve Rivkin: Patience is very important. You mentioned something that I had to chuckle. The phrase that doesn’t work or that won’t work is not something that should ever be stated, in my opinion, because for anyone who asks you to try something, I think it’s worth a try. And it may not be that it is the exact idea that they’re putting forth, but the idea that you understand the intent and that you explore based on what the note is and and you try different things, you may come up with something. I’ve tried things that I thought, oh, in my mind, I thought, well, that’s never going to work at all. But I’d never say that. I would just, I would try different things on my own and see what I could come up with. And you know, a lot of times you come up with something that incorporates the intent of the idea executed in a different way, and perhaps a way that really works for you, as if it looks like it was shot or scripted that way, and that’s that’s a win win, as far as I’m concerned, especially if it not not only accommodates the note, but it it is better for the story, which is what it’s all about. It’s all in service of the film. So if you can make something better, the idea came from someone. It may not have been you know exactly what they said, but they’re happy. You’re happy. The story is served, the film is better. It’s a win, win all around. And a lot of times I’ve seen editors rule things out without even trying, and that’s a dangerous tight rope to walk, because I can’t think of a director that would really if they’re coming forth with an idea and you don’t like it, or you’re attached to how you put something together, and you don’t want to share that, you don’t want to open that up and allow someone else In. This is a collaborative medium. We have to collaborate. That is what we’re paid to do. If you want to make your own movie, then you make your own movie, and you don’t do it with anybody else. But in this business, we collaborate with other editors, directors, producers, studio executives, studio heads. It is a collaborative art form, and you have to be able to work with other people and not just work with them, but if you can find a way to make the film better, and if the ideas have come from the collective pool, then you’re in Golden with these people. You know? I mean, that’s what you want,

Zack Arnold: Yeah. And the key word for me that I always tell younger editors, or even editors that are really trying to take themselves to the next level. As I said, the word is trust. You may think that it’s all about your technical skills or your background or how cool your resume is, but ultimately, once you get to a certain level and you’re technically proficient, so to speak. It’s that level of trust that people have. And like you said, if you’re constantly saying, No, it can’t be done, and you’re the quintessential grumpy editor and you’re not willing to go through that process of experimenting, even if you feel like you’re going backwards for a step or two, that trust factor is what’s ultimately going to get you hired back. And what I will always say is that, listen, if you’re reacting negatively, you might be reacting negatively to the proposed solution, but that’s a lot of times, because, especially if it’s an executive or producer, they may not understand the creative process as well, but they still have found a problem. And if you can be a ninja and solve that problem even with a different solution. That’s what enables trust.

Steve Rivkin: Right? Exactly, Trust is everything, and I will say in terms of of blossoming into a career. If you don’t have trust, and you don’t have people that will vouch for you, you’re not going anywhere. I think that it’s a. Very, very essential part of a career in this business, to have people trust you, count on you and know that you deliver. There is no substitute for that, and there’s no substitute for people who will vouch for you. So whether it’s an editor, Director relationship where director will call another director on your behalf. That’s gold, right there, there is. There’s nothing more important than that, and that means that every job you do, you have to leave an impression with whoever you’re working for. It’s like they would hire you back, or they would recommend you to someone else.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and basically, the first job that I got on TV was Burn Notice, and I Facebook stalked my way onto that. So that wasn’t about trust. That was just about being a salesman. But after that, every single job I’ve gotten since has been referral and based on trust, either somebody that worked with me directly, or somebody saying, Hey, I called a director friend of mine, said I really needed somebody, and he recommended you. So it really is all about trust, to make yourself hireable. And like you said, build a career. That’s a great way to put it.

Steve Rivkin: That’s that’s the way it works, and works with assistance as well. I’ve had a lot of people, obviously, you know, send me resumes. And I’ve tried to tell, I’ve tried to tell people, you know, I can, I can give resumes to my assistants, but they’re the ones that have to work with assistants, not me. So that’s a, that’s a real important point. And I’ve, I’ve tried to make that point a couple of times I’ve been on panels where assistants ask, you know, how they can get into work in features, if they’re in television or or how they can get into television if they’re in some other medium. But approach assistants don’t approach editors, because they’re the ones I know. I know the editors are the ones that are out there and that assistant see. But the important thing to understand is that assistants usually do the hiring. They’re the ones that look at the job skill set and decide whether that’s someone that can help them in that given job and that they have the right personality to work with them, because that’s who if an assistant is coming into a show, they’re going to answer to the first they’re going to answer to the assistants that are already on the show. They’re going to be working for them, not the editor.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and that’s also advice that I’ll give them. People say, Well, I really want, you know, to try and reach out to this, this big name editor, and see if they’ll mentor me. And I’m like, don’t reach out to the editor. Reach out to the editor’s assistant. That’s the person that’s going to respond to your emails. You can have lunch with them, and then if that works out, then you have a much smoother transition to the editor, because you have somebody that can recommend you. So that’s always what I say, is you don’t go after the CEO. You go after the executive assistant. That’s how you get yourself in the door and get noticed.

Steve Rivkin: Yeah, that that should be, that shouldn’t be a trade secret, that should be common knowledge. And I think more assistants that are trying to get in to what what they want, should understand that they they should go after the assistants that work with, the editors that that they want to work with, because that’s the way to get there.

Zack Arnold: Well, speaking of trade secrets, I kind of want to transition now to really the main reason that I wanted to get you on the show, which is that, in addition to being an incredibly accomplished film editor, you are also the president of the American cinema editors, or ACE, A, C, E, and to many people in the filmmaking in the post production industry, Ace is kind of like this mystical, magical, mysterious secret society. So what I really want to talk about now is really explaining what ace is, what it does for our community, and also, what does it kind of take to become a member and get in?

Steve Rivkin: Well, it’s it’s not that much of a secret, to tell you the truth. It is an honorary society was formed in 1950 and one of the objectives was to kind of raise the awareness and the perception of the film editing profession, and to bring together film editors who desire to advance the prestige and dignity of of the profession. So it does have kind of a dual purpose, and in doing that, we do a lot of things. There are a lot of events throughout the year that involve education and awards. And of course, we we do. It is a, it is a membership that is primarily by invitation. So just to clear up, you know how, how one does get in. It is the requirement. Is. I believe 60 months of editing in features or television, you should have two active members in Ace send letters of recommendation, and this is submitted to our membership committee, and then there are recommendations to the board, and then it goes to the board for approval. So it is, it’s a process, and that, you know, I mean, if you, if you don’t have 60 months of of work in either, you know, documentary or television or features, then obviously you have to keep working. I mean, there is a shortcut, actually, that that some people do know about, and that is to be nominated for an ace award, you’re automatically considered. Now, of course, there’s no guarantee that you will get in, because there are some people that are nominated that have very little experience, and they’ve, they’ve hit on something that a project that’s very prestigious and gets nominated or wins an ace Eddie award. Usually, if someone doesn’t get in under that circumstance, they get in within a couple years. You know, sometimes the board likes to see that this is something that is going to continue. It’s not just a just a flash in the pan kind of thing, you know, but, but there are people that have gotten in with a single credit. It depends on what it is, but those are, that’s the exception. We also have honorary members that are non editors who’ve distinguished themselves in the industry, to the board. And of course, when we give a golden Eddy once a year to a filmmaker, they become an honorary member as well. So there are, there are also affiliate members there that could be supervisory positions in the industry, in post production. So, you know, there are a number of, again, you still need sponsors, and it still has to go before the board. So that’s the membership requirement.

Zack Arnold: And one thing that I want to point out to people I know that I was kind of making the joke about it’s like the secret society, like the skulls or something. And I only make that joke because I’ve actually heard that from people like during lunch table conversations in the break room where they really don’t understand it. And I’m like, Guys, they’ve got a website. Like, you go to their site, it explains very clearly how the application process works, how membership works. So that was only kind of a joke, and I will make sure to put a link to the website, because all the information is there. But at the end of the day, I also want to clarify what you’re already saying, which is that it is a subjective process. So it’s not like if you need to get into the Union, you have X number of hours, you have your paycheck stubs, you go ahead, you fill out your paperwork, you get on the roster, and you’re done. Because some people think that it’s maybe like an extension of the union, or they’re connected somehow, because it’s MPEG, it’s ace, so I it’s very, I’m very glad that you had mentioned that it is indeed a society. So in that sense, there is some subjectivity. So to go a little bit deeper into the application process, you’ve talked about the amount of hours that are required. You need to get two sponsors. But beyond that, when you have a really large stack of applicants, and you can only allow so many in. What are some of the criteria that you’re really looking for in somebody that would become an ace member? Well, first of all, there is no limit. I mean, let me make that clear. We don’t have a limit on who we let in or how many people we let in. It’s really based on the quality of the work and the body of work in the cumulative resume of the person who’s interested in getting in. And it really is wide open that absolutely anybody who qualifies is it can be considered with with sponsorship,

Steve Rivkin: The minimum, as I said, to have sponsors and have a minimum of 60 months as an editor. Now keep in mind additional editing and associate editor that doesn’t count. I mean, you have to be a main Title Editor to in those 60 months that qualify. So that’s that even a co editor doesn’t apply. It has to be main title credits. And that’s one clarification I should add.

Zack Arnold: And one clarification that I wanted to talk about as well is that you now recognize people that work in reality. Correct because there was a time when that wasn’t considered. Am I correct in saying that or not?

Steve Rivkin: Yes, absolutely. I mean, look, unscripted television has become a very big deal, and it would be wrong for us not to consider the enormous amount of work that goes into these shows. Many times there are multiple editors, 678, 10, you know, on a show because it’s a mess. Massive amount of work, and it really does probably follow more in the documentary style than anything else. It’s just there. These editors are shaping these shows. They’re creating story lines from from chaos, essentially. So I think it’s relatively new. We probably added it a number of years ago and and it’s, it’s been a really successful part of our annual awards show.

Zack Arnold: One of the other misconceptions that I know people have had about ace, because I’ve had these conversations with people, and I frankly, had the same misconception years ago, when I was very young, breaking in and just got out of college and said, Oh, ace, what’s that I want that after my name someday? And the assumption was from a lot of these people that I’ve talked to is that ace is not only the society, but it also has something to do with like, kind of getting you a job and getting you in the door. And I know that that’s clearly not the case, but you and I have had a couple of conversations in the past about how, yes, if you’re in Ace, it may be helpful, but it’s not like you’re, you know, a job placement service. Specifically,

Steve Rivkin: No, no, not. But I will say that, you know, over the years, our membership has grown to over 850 members, and this represents probably the most talented and highly regarded editors in the world. So there is a, definitely a recognition of the moniker. When people look at it, I think that they know that being a member of ACE is a mark of distinction, and it does separate you from the rest of the pack, you know, so it’s not a guarantee of a job. Look, they’re, they’re, honestly, there are people outside of ACE that could be very qualified that just haven’t gotten in yet. And it doesn’t mean that they’re not going to get a job over an ace member. I don’t think, I don’t think employers look at that all by itself. They look at a resume, they look at a body of work, they look at who they’ve worked with, you know, like in all jobs are word of mouth and recommendations are paramount, you know, so to have someone vouch for you is everything, but it is a mark of distinction.

Zack Arnold: And I’m glad that you would clarify that, because I think that some people do feel like like, for example, I’ve seen some piles of resumes when I’ve been hired onto a TV show, and the I have a close relationship with some of the producers, so they’ll come to me with a pile of resumes, and some are ACE and some are not. And I’ve like, Well, do you really pay attention to the ace? And they’re like, exactly like you said, Well, I already know they’ve kind of been vetted. I know that they’re a pro, but still, they have to be the right fit. They have to have the right level of experience for this show. They need to speak this language of this film or of this genre. So it isn’t a foregone conclusion, because some people feel like, Oh, if I get into ace, man, I’m just in and I’m set and I don’t have to work anymore to find a job. So I just want to make sure people understand that it’s not that simple, but of course, it gives you a little bit of a leg up.

Steve Rivkin: Yes, it’s not that simple, and I’m glad that you mentioned the confusion about union, because it is not a union motion picture editors guild, of course, our members are guild members, but it doesn’t go the other way around. Not all guild members are ACE members, but all ace members are guild members. So you do have two separate things. One is a union that deals with collective bargaining and and rates and protects your pension and health and welfare and all that good stuff. Ace is something completely different.

Zack Arnold: Ace. Ace is the fun part, because you guys have the parties, right?

Steve Rivkin: Well, we do have, we have some parties meetings, but we also do an educational outreach. I mean, one of the cornerstones of our organization is education, and we do offer an internship program. There’s a fellow, some fellowship programs. We have Tech Day, we have edit fest, which we do twice a year in in once in LA and once in London. We’ve been doing it in London, England for the past number of years. And we get together editors from every type of either television, feature, documentary, reality, animation, and they present their work and talk about it. And we have put together a one day panel where people have a chance to see the inside of how these people work their methodologies and how they approach their projects, and how they, you know, interact with their employers and the politics of it all. So it’s a really, really beneficial program, and it’s been extremely successful. We also have the. Once a year before the Oscars, we have invisible art, visible artists, the IA VA, which takes the five nominated films for editing and the editors that are nominated again, they show clips, they talk about their work. They each pick a scene from the nominated film, and they talk about their work, and it’s very well attended. It’s at the Egyptian sea Egyptian theater the day before the Oscars every year. And we have people that line up from 6:30am to get in. It’s a free event, by the way, so that that’s that’s a very popular thing that we do. And we have the cinema editor magazine, where we have lots of articles that are enlightening about our members and films they work on. And we participate at NAB in Las Vegas every year we have in our ACE Eddie awards, in our annual awards, we have a student editing competition. These are all things that are part of Ace. But, you know, one of the personal things for me is a committee that I chair, that that I started, you know, maybe six, six years ago, the committee for creative recognition, where we essentially, we saw that there was kind of a weird thing going on at festivals and critics organizations in their annual awards that would recognize, say, a below the line discipline like cinematography or production design, but did not recognize Editing. So we started a petition and contacting festivals and critics organizations, both domestic and abroad, and appealed to them to reconsider their policy and add editing to their annual awards. And we’ve been successful with a number of festivals and critics organizations. And it started with Asifa, which is the International Animated Film Society. That was our first run we did probably six years ago. And so the annual, the Annie awards, every year now recognizes editing. I mean, they were recognizing, you know, background painting and and art direction and all these technical things that were part of animation, but leaving out editing, which is a critical a critical phase, a critical contribution creatively to Animated Film, is an editor. They’re on much earlier than editors are in live action. They shape story reels and shot creation and they and they work very hard for very long, you know, sometimes two and three and four years on these projects and to not recognize them seemed like a crime, you know. So it started there, and we prevailed with film Independent Spirit Awards and and Chicago Film Critics and LA Film Critics and Boston Film Festival and the Saturn Awards and Tribeca Film Festival. Durban in South Africa, Durban International Film Festival. We’ve really had some great, great success in getting these festivals to recognize editing annually. We still have some, some die hards that are the New York Film Critics and New York Film Critics online, and the Critics Circle and and the National Society of Film Critics. You know, some of them are just we don’t understand why they don’t. It’s such a simple thing and it’s so essential. But one of the one of the most frustrating to me personally, is Sundance Film Festival. And for years they were recognizing cinematography and documentary editing. But this is a festival that’s founded by filmmakers. Tribeca Film Festival was doing the same thing. They were recognizing documentary editing, but they, you know, we sent them information, we made a presentation to them, we petitioned and and they added the category of film editing every year, so that that’s fantastic, but Sundance has gone a different way, and we’re hoping they do have elective awards. So one year there could be an editing award, and another year there might not be. Last year they didn’t, they didn’t give cinematography for the first time in 18 years, for dramatic cinematography. And then this year they did, you know, but we’re trying to get them to add the awards on a permanent basis so that these significant creative contributions are recognized every year.

Zack Arnold: Well, I mean, it’s not like the editor lives with the director and the producer. For like, nine months to a year on a film. I mean, all they do is take out the bad parts. So why do they need an award? Right?

Steve Rivkin: Right, right? I’ve worked with directors that understand the relationship very well. I had a director say to me, there is no closer relationship than the relationship between the director and the editor, because when the 200 people go away, it comes down to two people in a room making the movie, and a lot of people consider it to be the final rewrite. And I’m sure you’ve heard that before and and it is, you know, I mean there, there are, there are things that change in the editing process that you can’t foresee when it’s the written word on paper. I mean, film has a life of its own, and things may need to be clearer, or things are more clear sooner, so you don’t need as much. And this is this is judgment that a film editor and a director, they have to put their heads together to make the best film possible.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, the analogy that I use when I speak to audiences that are non filmmakers, when they ask me, what I do, I just ask them to picture what a movie set looks like. Because everybody’s seen a movie set, whether it’s in behind the scenes, videos on the internet, they know what that looks like. You’ve got 200 people, 250 people, all these lights, hundreds of 1000s, if not millions, of dollars being spent on the work that’s being done. They take all of it, put it into little, tiny, digital, quick time files, they stick it on a hard drive, and they hand it to one person. If that’s not an important job, I don’t know what is.

Steve Rivkin: Well, there, there are key positions in the creative process of making a film. We believe that the editor is as essential as cinematography or production design, and any time a festival or critic organization recognizes one of those disciplines, we they, we go after them.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and you should, because if you think about even when you’re at the smallest level, learning how to make films in school, whether it’s high school or college, and you need key positions, they say you need four or five positions, and that’s it. You just need four people to make a movie. You need a cinematographer, you need a director who’s usually the writer. You need a producer to make sure that everything works, and you need an editor to put it all together. So you you can’t really make anything without somebody putting the pieces together, even if it’s a one or they still got to put a fade up and a fade out, right?

Steve Rivkin: Well, yeah, sometimes it takes a decision not to cut, you know, to play something in a simple way, as opposed to cutting a bunch of coverage together. That’s a decision, a creative decision, and as we said before, it’s an intuitive creative process, and it has to do with you know, your your instincts and your sense of rhythm and timing and your ability to tell story in a story through pictures, and everybody has a different approach. It’s not like, you know? I mean, I use the analogy before, when I went to art school and they taught us how to stretch a canvas, you know, they teach you how to stretch a canvas, how to prep it, how to use oil paints or acrylic paints, but there’s only so far you can go with the technical stuff. You know. I mean, people either have a certain innate ability to work with the material and create something that’s effective, or they don’t, you know? I mean, there is an element of talent and instinct that goes into this, you know. And the wonderful thing is that these days, more and more people are able to try it, because it’s accessible, because anybody can edit on a laptop. These days, I think that more people can try their hand. And I think that’s a real positive thing, and it also raises the perception of the craft, because people learn how difficult it is, you know, so they have an appreciation for it, whereas they may not have before.

Zack Arnold: So given then that the role of the editor, and of course, we’re biased, because it’s what we’ve done for a living for a living for many, many years. But given that the role of editor is so important to the creative process, I have one additional topic that I wanted to talk about, and I did a extensive episode about this way back in the archives. But I love your opinion of this given your stature in the industry, and that’s the concept of the fact that we are below the line, and not only talking about it from the kind of producer slash accounting perspective, but from the psychological perspective that so many editors feel because they’re considered below the line, whereas other key positions that are very similar are considered above the. Line. What are your thoughts on that?

Steve Rivkin: Well, again, I’d say our discipline falls in line with cinematography and production design, which is below the line as well the people above the line. You know, they’re people above the line, like composers. The industry holds composers above the line of course, directors and actors. But look, you can’t, you can’t fight the classification. And I think more and more people understand the incredible value of the editorial process and editors. And as I said, a lot of our our missions at ACE is to continue to raise the perception of the craft. And I think we’re doing everything we can along that line and and we just have to keep fighting. You know, it is. It’s an uphill battle, but I think, look, editors have come a long way. It wasn’t until the 50s that they even got solo credits. It used to be ganged with a bunch of other sound recorders and technical crafts on a card with like, 20 different jobs. And it wasn’t until, I think the 50s, that people started giving editors solo credits. That’s a that’s a milestone in itself. And there have been, you know, people who have helped to set the bar higher and gotten, you know advertisement, you know, billboards and run sheets. Those were all milestones for editors, and we will continue as the perception of the craft grows

Zack Arnold: Well the below the line versus above the line conversation, I think, is one that’s going to continue to happen, probably for several more decades. At the end of the day, I don’t want it to seem like you know, editors are above them, cinematographers, the production designers. That’s not the conversation that I’m interested in starting, or that, you know, composers aren’t deserving of above the line, because I do believe that they are. What I’m always interested in is what that term does to the psyche of people in this industry. Because, as you know, at certain levels, as an editor, you are highly regarded if you’re working on films of your level, if you’re working on TV shows that I work on, people know that you’re a creative professional, and they treat you as such. But a lot of editors that haven’t quite reached that stature, because they’re below the line, there are facilities and directors and producers that treat them as such, just because of the psychological connotation. That’s the part that I’m really interested in trying to see if there’s a way to fix it.

Steve Rivkin: Well, I think that begins with education and raising awareness of what it is we do. A lot of people don’t know what we do. They don’t understand the process. So again, education is the key, and that’s why these seminars and panels are so valuable for people to understand the complexity of the job. But I will say, as far as the recognition, if you, if you come to the ACE awards every year, we give an award to an esteemed either producer or director as a golden Eddy. And I can tell you that the most prominent directors in the world that we have given awards to have paid homage to their editors and what that collaboration means to them. And this year was, you know, we gave Thelma Schoonmaker a lifetime award, and Martin Scorsese came to the awards and presented it to her, and his tribute to her was amazing, and the credit he gave to her as an editor in their collaborative relationship was basically an homage to the relationship between a director and editor, and we’ve had the same thing from Steven Spielberg and JJ Abrams and right, right down the line, you know, I mean, editors are recognized. One of the issues is, a lot of times directors will say this stuff, but they don’t put it in print, and they don’t do it in interviews. But they but when it comes time for the editors to give them an award, they understand the relationship. Part of the problem is directors, a lot of times, may feel like they don’t want to, they don’t want to give the implication that they need that much help, but a great director does recognize that contribution and how valuable it is to them?

Zack Arnold: Yeah. And I think the real key takeaway from this, before we wrap up, is, if you’re getting into the editing profession because you want recognition, you are in the wrong profession. We choose to work in the dark rooms because we enjoy. Enjoy the craft. We enjoy the process creating something, seeing it on the screen. If you really want recognition and people to know who you are, this probably isn’t the best choice in the filmmaking industry.

Steve Rivkin: No, I agree. I think. Listen, editors are, as a whole, very dedicated creative people, and they are happy to be doing the work and making a living at it. I’m thrilled every day that I can do something I love and make a living doing it, and the rest is gravy. Really, I have to say, if I was frustrated early in my career, I learned very quickly that this is a long term thing, and it takes time, if I didn’t say it before I’ll say it again. You got to love the road, because it’s a very long road. You know, people have said it many different ways, but if you love your work, then you don’t feel the time. I’ve gotten something out of every job that I’ve done in my entire career.

Zack Arnold: I couldn’t say it better myself. I completely agree. If my choices were go to a crazy party or put a timeline in front of me with a bunch of raw footage, I’ll take the timeline and the raw footage 10 times out of 10. That’s my happy place. So I completely agree with you, and that’s why I chose this profession, and for everybody that’s listening, if you are interested in learning more about ace, how it works, all the educational initiatives, which I think are so important and vital for the growth of our industry. I’ll make sure to put a link in the show notes to the website with all the information. But I want to thank you so much for providing your invaluable time, because I know how busy you are editing the next what is it? 14 avatars or 15? I can’t keep track.

Steve Rivkin: It’s four.

Zack Arnold: Four. That’s what I meant to say. So yeah, well, I greatly appreciate your time, and I wish you the best of luck with all the stuff that you’re working on right now and in the future.

Steve Rivkin: Well, thank you so much. And if you, if you want to give your listeners a place to go for the petition, it’s editors petition.com

Zack Arnold: Oh, thank you.

Steve Rivkin: Also a link to it probably at the at the ACE website. But anyway, thank you. It’s been a pleasure, Zack, and I hope that I’ve been helpful to you and your listeners,

Zack Arnold: Immensely helpful. You’ve answered a lot of questions that people ask me, some of which I can answer and some of which I can’t. So this is going to be a tremendous resource for everybody in this community. So I appreciate you very, very much.

Steve Rivkin: My pleasure.

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