The Magic of Postural Modification (And How It Can Cure Your Back Pain Better Than a Doctor)

About Episode

I’m often asked via social media, via email, and in my member coaching calls about proper posture at a seated or standing workstation. Where should my elbows go? What’s the best desk chair? Why do my shoulders hurt? Why is my lower back on fire all the time?

In this episode I have a conversation with Zeena Dhalla, a certified posture specialist, self-proclaimed posture geek, and the founder of the Verticalign program which you can find at verticalign.com. Zeena and I dive into all of these issues and more to help you understand the detriments of living all day long in the same bad position and what positions you can switch to instead, as well as the simple exercises that can be done to alleviate and eliminate years of chronic pains.

For further information as well as specific exercises and postural modifications you can be making today, click here for Zeena’s article “The Magic of Postural Modification (And How It Can Cure Your Back Pain Better Than a Doctor)”

Transcript

Zack Arnold: I’m here today with Zeena Dhalla, who is the founder of vertical line posture coaching. I’m super excited to have you here today, Zeena, so welcome to the show.

Zeena Dhalla: Thanks, Zack. I’m really happy to be here

Zack Arnold: Now you and I have kind of an interesting story about how we connected and met you and I are actually in one of the same online business groups learning how to build an online business. So that’s kind of how you and I connected. It’s a very unique story. Unique story

Zeena Dhalla: Yes, I have been stalking you for a little while now

Zack Arnold: You have, yes, well, I wouldn’t say stalking, I wouldn’t put it quite that way, because there are other people that stalk me, but you were just, you know, very pleasantly reminding me that you existed and you had very helpful information that applied to my product and to the work that I’m doing. And it was just one of those things where we needed to wait for the right time, and luckily, right now is the right time

Zeena Dhalla: Exactly. And I’m a big believer in what you’re doing, you know, the mission that you have with your business. So I’m really glad that we can connect today and and help the world together.

Zack Arnold: Well, that’s the idea. And I want to jump deeper into how we can help the world together, really dive into the specifics. But before I do that, it’s always really important to me to understand the people behind the mission, kind of how they were shaped, how they were molded, what their experiences have been. And then we can get deeper into some of the science, because we’re going to really drill into some ideas behind posture sitting at your desk. And this is something that I’ve talked about in the past with chiropractors and with other people in this general industry, but you have a very specific take on it that I haven’t gone into yet, and you’re going to really help me answer questions that I get a lot that I didn’t have answers to yet. So this is going to be a super helpful resource for a lot of people. But before we do that, just give me some background of where you originally came from, what your journey was to get to the point where you chose to found this company?

Zeena Dhalla: Great. Well, you know, I love being on this podcast, because I actually came from the film and television industry. So back in my 20s, I was working for, back in the day when DreamWorks was around, I was working for DreamWorks. I was working in their development office. This was, you know, again, like I said, I was in my 20s, and I was sitting at a desk all day long. That was my job, and I was rather unhappy. I didn’t find a lot of satisfaction in the work that I was doing at that time. I loved the film industry. I just wasn’t in the right job. And one day, I was driving to work, driving on to the universal lot, which is where I was working, and I heard an advertisement for a marathon training program. Now, I had never run more than three miles of my life, and I thought to myself, hey, I can do that. So I did that. And six months I trained for a marathon. It changed my life. And I like to say that that was a pinnacle moment right there, standing turning left into the universal lot, when I heard that radio advertisement for that training program, that was a moment that I really shifted into, what do I really want to do with my life, because when I was training for that program, it really just changed who I was. The problem was, is two years later, when I decided that I wanted to become a personal trainer and change other people’s lives, I was struggling with back pain, you know, I had been sitting for so many years working, you know, in Hollywood, and all of a sudden I had a standing job, and I just couldn’t sustain it. And what I discovered through my training program when I was becoming a personal trainer, was that I had poor posture. And so, you know, since then, it’s about 15 years I’ve been doing this work, but I’ve really learned a lot about the body biomechanics. I’ve worked on my own body and then hundreds of clients of my own, and I found passion in this work to help people really get from a place of immobility and sitting to activity, and get them through the pain that they may be experiencing through sitting for too many hours in a day?

Zack Arnold: Yeah? Unfortunately, I don’t think anybody listening right now spends a lot of time sitting or is immobile, so I don’t have a whole lot of those on my on my podcast,

Zeena Dhalla: Yeah. So yeah, that’s how I started. So in my in my career, for the last 15 years, I know I started off in fitness as a personal trainer, I transitioned into Pilates. I love the work of Pilates, and that it’s very detail oriented, very precision based, very, you know, control and breath and harmony, those are all the missions and the statements of Pilates. But the problem with Pilates is that it was created back in the 1920s I’m not sure if you know the history. You know our bodies were different back then. So my mission today is to take, you know, the foundation of Pilates and yoga and strength training and stretching and CrossFit and and all the other work that’s being done by other posture specialists, and bring it together into a plan that can really help people that just find themselves sitting for too long. What kind of workout will work for me? How can I fit it into my life? And that’s my mission.

Zack Arnold: Well, that’s an awesome mission, and clearly we have a lot of things in alignment, because I certainly didn’t wake up one day in my early 20s and say, I want to teach people how to be more active at their workstation. You don’t you don’t do that. But then there’s always some personal thing that happens in your life, and you just kind of have this spark of an idea and say, Hmm, there might be something here. And then you find yourself three years down the road thinking, wow, When did all this happen that has nothing to do with me whatsoever. But one thing I am curious about, which may seem tangential, but I probably. Will find a way to get back to it. But I’m curious why you were originally in the film industry, because I want to understand if you were somebody that just kind of happened into it, or if it’s something you always wanted to do. Because I want to see if I can find that creative connection between these two things.

Zeena Dhalla: Well, I think I’m a creative person at heart. I’m a storyteller. I love to tell stories. I when I graduated from college, I went to Northwestern in Chicago. I was really in the in the theater world for a while, and I was actually a stage manager in the theater world, because I liked being that organized person within the creative world. And then after college, all my friends moved to LA, so I kind of moved out to LA with them, and kind of fell into the film industry as a result of what else do you kind of do? But again, I didn’t find satisfaction. It wasn’t the people that I was meeting and the environment that I was in. Just didn’t feel like I was changing the world as much as I really wanted to change the world, if that made sense. So hence the transition over to fitness. And I haven’t looked back. I mean, it’s been 15 years. I still love I mean, I have a ton of friends in the film industry. Like I said, I said, I feel like I’m talking to my peeps on this podcast, because I understand that world really well. I know what it takes to live and breathe film and editing or directing or whatever, whatever it is you’re doing, but it wasn’t for me. But this is a great way I can do it now, be creative in this industry, you know, especially running an online business, shooting videos, editing videos, doing podcasts, talking on film. I can do all that. So it satisfies both parts of my world, so to speak. Yeah, it’s interesting.

Zack Arnold: That’s kind of the way that I see it as well, where,

Zeena Dhalla: Yeah,

Zack Arnold: I still have that, you know, love for creative work and creating things, but, you know, it’s different when you’re editing something that is going to be seen by millions of millions of people, and there’s a team of 400 that are putting it together, and they’re spending millions, spending millions of dollars, as opposed to, this is something that I’m working to build, to be able to help other individuals, you know, reach their dreams and reach the goals that they want to attain. So that’s kind of what I was trying to get to, is how that creative spark inside of you led you to this, but you’re still, still using it so that that’s exactly what I was looking for.

Zeena Dhalla: When you can be creative, when you’re you know, I still take clients. I have a studio here in Ladera Ranch, California, where I’m located, and I still take clients on a regular basis, a little bit of Pilates, a little bit of strength training, and I have to be creative with them, you know, you got to keep people coming back and interested. I mean, you won’t exercise on a regular basis if it’s not interesting to you. If it’s boring, then you lose interest. So, so, yeah, I have to be creative in my work every day.

Zack Arnold: Now you have basically a full time personal training business as well as the online business. Is that correct?

Zeena Dhalla: Yeah, it’s actually part time. So part time on each part time on the online, and part time in person, and then part time mom, part time wife, you know.

Zack Arnold: So a lot of part time jobs that add up to probably two full time jobs

Zeena Dhalla: Pretty much?

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I know how that is. So my next question, then, is based on the fact that you’re spending at least part of your time working with people, one on one that are in the Los Angeles area. What are some of the most common things that you’re seeing every day, and where are those people coming from?

Zeena Dhalla: Yeah, so it’s mainly the forward head kyphosis posture that I see, and what we get as a result of that is usually a neck pain or a mid thoracic pain. So that area in that upper back area that gets tight in the scapula, someone will say, I have a knot in that scapula. And then sometimes it radiates into the hands and wrists, you know, into some of the carpal tunnel stuff. So a lot of what we work on in the studio is teaching exercises and stretches for that. And then if they’re regular clients that are coming two or three times a week, we just we every single thing we do has a posture emphasis to it. So I stopped calling my studio Pilates many years ago, because we don’t really follow the traditional Pilates protocol, but we are doing Pilates esque movements, and that it’s slow and controlled and it’s targeted, and it’s there’s a mission behind every exercise. What’s the point and purpose of this? And I educate people on that so that they understand how their body should be moving, versus moving just to move.

Zack Arnold: And out of curiosity, what are some of the things that you feel are a little outdated in the world of Pilates that you’re trying to not integrate, and the things that you are integrating that are still working with this new program that you built,

Zeena Dhalla: Yeah. So to give the history lesson, Joseph Pilates came to the United States in the 1920s and that’s when he had his first studio. And you know, if you think about what we did in the 1920s it was very different than what we’re doing today. You know, we didn’t drive, we didn’t sit in computers. I mean, obviously that was driving, but not to the extent that we are today. And so our bodies are different now than it was back then. So when he created his routines, a lot of them were in what we call, you know, flexion, so that crunch position, so where your hands are behind your head and you’re lifting your head and chest and you’re kind of rounding your shoulders and you’re working your abdominals, and, you know that’s all important. But Unfortunately, nowadays, everyone is just so rounded forward anyway, and we’re usually really tight in those areas that what our body needs more is moving in the opposite direction. So imagine you’re sitting at your desk, and you’re going to arch backwards. That’s what we need to be doing, more than that flexion. So Joseph’s original work, his especially his Matt Pilates work, it has 20 some odd extra so. Sizes of which, I think I counted years ago about, I think it was 18 of them were in that forward flexion position. So about two thirds of it were in that position. And you know, it’s great to do that position on occasion, but we just need to be shifting so that we’re doing more extension than we’re doing flexion. I hope that answers your question,

Zack Arnold: No, that’s very clear. And if you think about, like, if you if somebody listening right now, kind of pictures themselves in that crunch position. Just do a really, really loose version of the crunch that’s basically the shape of your body for 12 hours a day, correct

Zeena Dhalla: Exactly. And people will say, oh gosh, I can’t do Pilates because it hurts my neck or hurts my back. Well, those are usually the people that are already in that position. So then if you take your hands and you interlace them behind your head, and then you lift your head and chest in that position, but you’re already there too much. You need to be actually moving in the other direction. You’re going to hurt yourself more. And we, you know, also have people say, Oh, I go to the gym and I try to lift weights, and I try to lift it over my head, and my shoulder goes up. Well, that’s because your shoulder joints not in the right position. Your shoulders are forward. If your shoulder was back in the right position, and you lift the weight over your head, you wouldn’t get that shoulder pain. So it’s so critical to really look at the body. So me, I mean, I’d like to think I have good posture. I can do those crunching movements. I can take a mat Pilates class, because my body can handle that. But if you’re looking at the general public, who are already so hunched over, it’s just not necessarily the best plan to start there and start with that kind of movement.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and where I kind of discovered this first was when I was in my early to mid 20s, where I had spent years and years doing martial arts and doing yoga and like, I was really, really active. But then I moved out to Los Angeles and was focused pretty much 100 hours a week on just trying to survive and make it in the film industry, because it’s very competitive. Very competitive, and that’s just the expectation when you come out of college and you’re a young kid, and I hadn’t done yoga for, I don’t know, it’s probably two years. So I had done it in college, done a lot of martial arts in high school, two years off, and then I went to my first yoga class, and I remember trying to do just a downward dog, and then also trying to do, I can’t think of the name, but anything that was like heart opening, chest opening, and like trying to interlace my fingers behind my back and open my chest, it was like I was made of concrete. I was like, What in the world happened to my body

Zeena Dhalla: Exactly, exactly. And I love yoga, and I get that same exact feedback as well. Is yoga good for posture? Of course, it’s good for posture, except if you’ve got terrible posture, you need to ease into it. You need to start with a very simple class to discuss the biomechanics, a little bit about yoga. They in the downward dog position. It’s a great position, but if you are hunched over your shoulder, if you’ve got that hunchback posture, your shoulders are going to be up far further by your ears than they should be. It’s going to be harder for you to pull and engage those back muscles to get in the right position. If you sit at a desk all day long, your hamstrings are probably incredibly tight, so you’ll have to bend your knees to get yourself in the right position. And then when you go into Upward Facing Dog, which is that position where your hands are on the floor and you’re arching up and arching backwards. Again, if someone has bad upper body posture, what happens is they end up arching a lot from their lower back, more than they should, and then that can create problems as well. So the lesson with the yoga is, again, ease into it. Make sure you know your instructor needs to know where you’re coming from, and to help ease you into those movements so that you don’t kill yourself right off the bat.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, exactly. The problem with me is that ease into was removed from my dictionary. I don’t know when that happened in my life, but it’s anybody that knows me is like, yeah, Zack doesn’t ease into a whole lot of things. And the issue that I ran into, which was a giant wall that I hit with yoga, was that I was getting ridiculously inflamed lower back muscles, like the pain was so intense in my lower back when I was doing yoga that I would just have to drop to the floor and do Child’s Pose for like half an hour. And I’m thinking, I’m 25 years old. I’m still in really good shape. I’ve probably had, I don’t know, maybe like, 10% body fat or something at the time. I certainly don’t anymore, but at that time, I was in really good shape, but I couldn’t hold simple postures because my lower back, I would have sworn there were flames coming out of my lower back. It was so painful, and I couldn’t figure it out. And then after years of learning everything that I have again, it’s because at that time, I was sitting all day long, so that was completely crippling me

Zeena Dhalla: And probably sitting in poor posture. You know, if you’re sitting in that round back position, you’re actually compressing your spine, compressing the discs. Now there’s actually more research coming out that those crunches and those movements I was discussing before in terms of Pilates can actually really compress the spine, and it’s not good for your spine. And what we need to be doing is sitting more in a neutral position, or neutral posture, which I outlined in the blog post, how to sit properly. And then we need to be doing those back extension movements, but only if your back is is healthy enough to get yourself there. Like I said, you have to kind of first get used to sitting in that proper position, and then we can start moving backwards and arching in that position

Zack Arnold: Exactly. And no, I want to start going into some of the more like drilled down details, as far as like, because one thing that people ask me is, well, how am I supposed to sit? And what’s the best posture? And I want to get into all that. But one other area I want to hit before. Where we start to get into the really specific areas in the blog post that you wrote, and I’m going to put a link in the show notes to this blog post as well. So it’s kind of a twofer for everybody. This is like National fitness and post posture week, so to speak, starring Xena. But you talked about a study from the CDC that talks about lower back pain. So can you go a little bit deeper into that?

Zeena Dhalla: Yeah. So the study talks about how 30% of Americans have had back pain in the last three months. Is that the study you’re talking about?

Zack Arnold: Yes,

Zeena Dhalla: It is right, yes. And then you know, overall, there’s about the studies that I’ve seen over the last even 15 years, and I know that it’s probably gotten worse. Is that about 80% of Americans experience back pain at one point or another in their lives, so it’s a chronic problem, and this number is higher in the industrialized nations, because obviously we sit, so we sit at computers, we sit at desks, we sit and we drive. So yeah, I mean, sitting is a new smoking you said that. I say that. It’s the phrase. It’s the not only the act of sitting, but it’s the immobility that we experience. So it’s a combination of both. So people will ask me, What about standing and standing desks? And I’ll say, yep, standing is great too, but you can’t be standing for 12 hours a day, because it’s that the immobility factor kind of creeps in there. And then even when you’re standing, you can still be in terrible posture. You’ll get rid of the hip flexor issue and the hamstring issue, but it doesn’t get rid of the, you know, thoracic spine, neck forward, head posture issue, because you can still be standing and hunched over a desk.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I get that complaint a lot from people that say I listened to your podcast. I was super inspired. I didn’t want to be sitting anymore, so I started standing. But it doesn’t work, because my shoulders and my neck hurt even worse. So this just clearly was a bad idea, and it’s like, no, no, no, no. There’s more to it than that. And I made that mistake too. I stood for 12 to 14 hours a day in one place. I didn’t have a mat, I wasn’t moving, and I was going to orthopedist, and I was in tremendous amounts of pain. And I was thinking, well, this stupid standing stuff doesn’t work either, until I learned, you know, the magic of actually moving

Zeena Dhalla: Exactly. I don’t know. Are you familiar with the work? Not to before we jump into the biomechanics. Are you familiar with the work of Amy Cuddy and seen her TED talk.

Zack Arnold: Oh, yes, absolutely. I’ve actually something that I actually teach in my my move yourself program, yes.

Zeena Dhalla: Oh, great. Well, I just wanted to mention really quickly that there’s also the whole piece of the emotions and the and the cortisol and the testosterone and and all that stuff. But how powerful posture can be on our emotions and so for in this rounded position all day long, you know, our productivity goes down, our energy load goes down, our depression goes up. So there’s that piece of it too, which is really important, in addition to the pain.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, I’m actually, I want to go deeper into that now that you brought that up. That really wasn’t on my roadmap, but that’s one of my favorite TED Talks. It was super inspiring and life changing for me, and I actually discovered it. I guess it would have been about two years ago now, when I first started the podcast, because I had a couple of chiropractors on that designed a program that was called a sitting solution, and the sitting solution was actually the inspiration for me to build move yourself. But they talked about this idea for people that aren’t aware of the TED talk, I’ll put a link in the show notes, and I’ll let you go into it deeper, because this is more your realm than mine, but basically that the position that you put your body in is kind of creating the this mental and hormonal map of who you are. So if you put yourself in like a superhero power position for two or three minutes standing upright, like Wonder Woman, for example, you’re actually changing the hormones and the neurochemistry in your body

Zeena Dhalla: Exactly right. So she did a test where she’d have people come in and she would either have them just sit and relax, or have them stand in a power posture. And that power posture was legs apart, hands at the hips, shoulders back, chin lifted. And then she would actually test their cortisol levels and their testosterone levels before and after. And she found that people who had the power posture had lower cortisol and higher testosterone levels. They were also bigger risk takers. She would test them at the end and give them, I think it was $2 and she would say, would you like to keep these $2 or would you like to gamble and try to make $4 or lose it all? And the people who had held the power postures had a higher percentage of one big gamble. So, you know, it was just a direct link towards how we hold our body and how we we act after that, and even what, yeah, what happens inside our body in terms of the chemistry,

Zack Arnold: Yeah. And that, to me, is really the foundation of everything that I’ve been building. And a lot of people think that it’s just because I want people to get standing desks or do burpees in their office. What, you know, that’s all fun stuff, but I don’t want to build a business around having people doing burpees at four o’clock in the afternoon. That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

Zeena Dhalla: No, yeah.

Zack Arnold: It was when I discovered that, that was the discovery, that was the spark for everything, where I started putting the pieces together, and people, especially that are in creative industries like film editing or graphic design or online entrepreneurs, like whoever it is that’s listening right now, if you’re in that position all day long, where you’re kind of hunched over a desk and you’re working with other people, they’re perceiving you a certain way. They have a perception that you’re gonna like if it’s a producer or a director or whomever it is that would be hiring you to do your creative service. They don’t even realize this. This is happening on a subconscious, just human genetic level. They’re treating you differently and viewing you differently based on. On that neurochemistry. So when people think, Oh, well, you know, I’m just the editor, and, you know, they kind of treat me like I’m an extension of my computer. And I really wish they saw me as a creative equal. That’s something you have to create if you’re just hunched over for 14 hours a day. That’s why people treat the people in our industry that way, and that’s what I’m trying to change more than anything, is bringing back that sense of self respect and confidence. And it’s not a matter of going to see a psychotherapist three days a week for a year, you just start standing and moving around, and people are going to perceive you differently. So that’s really what’s at the foundation of all of this.

Zeena Dhalla: Absolutely. I mean, I just heard a speaker speak about I think it’s she said that was 80% maybe it’s in a higher of communication that’s perceived as body language, you know, so if you’re standing in poor posture, that’s your body language, and that’s how you’re speaking to the world. And it’s not just the upper body piece too, as well the lower body piece of it. One of the more common postural deviations that’s happening with our lower half of our body is what I would call a posterior pelvic tilt. When we’re tucked, you know, our tailbone is kind of tucked underneath us. We’ve lost our glute definition, and there’s really no lumbar curvature. And we, I kind of call that bad dog posture. You know, when there’s a dog that’s kind of bad, he tucks his tail underneath them, you know, he’s sort of ashamed. So if we’re standing and walking around like that all day long, there’s, there’s this perception of shame, you know, and and fear and hiding beneath ourselves. They say it in yoga. If you take yoga, if you say, they say it all time, open your heart out to the world, lift your chest, you know. So it’s all, it’s all how we perceive,

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and it’s all interconnected. And anybody that’s listening now is like, Ah, it’s just a bunch of Woo, woo, hooey crap. Like, there’s this thing called science that’s now backing all of this up. So it’s much deeper than just connecting with your feelings like that’s that’s not the world that I live in. I live in a very practical world with very hard deadlines, but I’ve seen firsthand through my own personal experience for years, the way that I am treated differently just because I have the respect to stand up and maintain those power positions and stand my ground. But I now see it with so many other people that come to me and say the same thing, where one of the recent developments that I’ve really seen is I always, when I first started this, I’m like, man, it sure would be cool to see before and after pictures like you see on a Beachbody infomercial. Like I want to say, I help that person lose 50 pounds, but then I was and I haven’t gotten any of those, but I’m getting these emails from people saying I used to hate my job, and now I go in and I love it, and in the afternoon, I have my sense of humor back, and I don’t have brain fog anymore, and people are treating me differently. And I was like, ah, like, that’s that makes a lot more sense. It’s just it’s not as sexy as, you know, losing 80 pounds and having the before and after picture, but it lasts longer, and in my viewpoint, it’s much more important, and that’s why posture is such a big deal.

Zeena Dhalla: It really is. I mean, same thing with me. So when I started my career, I had the choice to go the weight loss route. I mean, I when I first started working in a gym, I’d get all these women that wanted to lose 20, 3040, pounds, and I worked with them, and it was it was good, it was gratifying to a certain degree. But then I started getting the clients that were like, Oh, my hip hurts, can you help me with that? Or my shoulder hurts. Can you help me with that? And my favorite time of day is when I have a client that walks in the door or emails me. Actually just happened to me last week where I had someone email me and said, My pain is gone, like virtually gone. And that is so powerful, because pain can be so detrimental to our brain and our energy and just our life. I mean, who wants to be in pain all day long? So, yeah, it’s powerful stuff.

Zack Arnold: Yeah. I mean, I was, I was the the grumpy editor at 25 years old, like depressed and angsty, and had no energy, and I just didn’t want to work with anyone. And I had horrible lower back pain. My posture was terrible, and as soon as I started correcting those things, it was just like the world completely changed. So I just before we drill into the specifics, which I want to do now, I just want to make sure and emphasize to my audience that this is much bigger than, Oh, my elbow needs to be at a 90 degree angle to my keyboard, and I need a posterior pelvic tilt like, those are the those are the little tiny beats. But there’s a much bigger picture to why this is so important.

Zeena Dhalla: Exactly, yeah, really important stuff.

Zack Arnold: So that, having been said, now that we’ve, kind of, you know, we’ve our heads are up in the clouds talking about the great mission in the bigger picture. Now I want to get into the weeds. So now let’s do the exact opposite, and let’s start talking about specifics. So one of the most common questions that I get is, what is the best posture for me to be in at my desk? And the answer that I give is, well, you can’t just choose one, but that, having been said, I’m sure you would agree that there’s a difference between good posture and bad posture. So let’s kind of start with the basics.

Zeena Dhalla: Okay, so don’t sit at your couch and have your laptop on your lap. Basic number one, no, the biggest thing I would say for people is you’re right. You can’t sit in one position. Sorry, still the whole time, you need to be moving. But for me, in terms of the actual sitting piece of it, you want to make sure you can feel your sit bones. So your sit bones are those bones at the base of your pelvis. So if everyone just kind of like moves, it’s up tall and moves around right now, maybe even take your hand and place it underneath the fleshy part of your butt, where your butt is, and kind of pull that fleshy part away and see if you can feel your sit bones. Bones. Those are really important bones to be sitting on, and that will help you find how to find neutral pelvis in a sitting position. So sitting on your step bones is going to be key. The other piece of it is where your elbows and your arms are in space, so where your destination is, if you’ve got your elbows extended in front of you, you’re going to over activate the front of your shoulders, and then that’s going to activate your neck muscles too much, and it’s going to bring your head forward. So if you can pull your elbows backwards, so everyone do that, as I’m talking about it, pull your elbows backwards, you’ll feel yourself engage your back muscles a little bit more. You’ll feel your head kind of fall into alignment. So that meaning falling backwards into alignment. And everything kind of just adjusts itself sitting up tall. So the two key pieces there that I just mentioned were sitting on your sit bones and pulling your elbows back. So now you’re not going to sit there for 12 hours a day, but if you can keep bringing yourself back into that alignment as you think about it throughout the day, you’re going to do a lot better off than not thinking about it throughout the day.

Zack Arnold: Well, see, and that, to me, is the real game changer, and I’m not even sure that I’ve solved this problem, or anybody has yet, but everybody knows that there are better postures. But the next inevitable question is, okay, but how do I not slip out of it after two minutes and go back to all the bad postures that my body’s used to? That’s really the Holy Grail, is, how do I keep these good postures?

Zeena Dhalla: So it’s my belief system that in addition to doing, you know, sitting at your desk and reminding yourself and all that that you should be doing some exercises and stretches throughout the day, because if you can build a baseline of strength where it feels better for you to be in good posture, then you’re going to keep it for longer. Because oftentimes people will say, Well, I corrected myself in my desk or my posture, and now it hurts. Well, yeah, it hurts, because your body’s not used to being there. So I have a course coming out. Actually, it’s open right now as we speak, and it helps create a routine for you 20 minutes a day where you do certain stretches, you do certain exercises that you can you can open up your muscles that are tight, you can strengthen the muscles that are weak, so that when you’re sitting at your desk all day long, it isn’t so painful or so challenging to remember to hold up the body and good posture.

Zack Arnold: Now, are there certain apps or triggers or things that you’ve recommended to your patients? Because I know that there’s so many wearables now that you can get zapped on your hip when you don’t breathe enough, or you can get a electric shock on your wrist for whatever reason, like, are there? Are there any things or wearables that or alerts or any kind of app that you have found actually helps remind people to keep a proper posture?

Zeena Dhalla: Yeah, absolutely. So Lumo Lift is a product that came out a couple years ago. Have you tried it yet?

Zack Arnold: I have not. I’ve heard of it, but I haven’t tried it.

Zeena Dhalla: Okay? Yeah. So you wear it on your collar, and you can set a certain period of time that you want to be reminded to hold good posture. So you’ll set it for an hour, and you’ll calibrate it so that it knows what good posture is, and then the moment it feels you slip out of good posture, it’ll buzz, and then you come back up. So it won’t remind you throughout the day, the whole day, but you can set up a little training time for yourself to do that. There’s also posture braces that I’m sure you’ve seen where you can wear on your body that again, will kind of remind you to hold those shoulders back and just again, like if you if you start to slouch forward, it’ll start to pull on you uncomfortably that you actually have to hold good posture. But that being said, Those are wonderful tools. I still think it’s the daily exercise that’s going to make a really big difference. And what I mean by daily exercise, I’m talking 1520, minutes a day. I’m not talking about have to go to the gym every day, but I’m a firm believer in that if you just mentally place yourself in this space for a short amount of time that I’m going to commit to working on this part of my life and this part of my body, my breathing, my stretching, my strength, then that’s how you’re really going to affect change.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and the other change that I see, which is really what I’m trying to create for people, once again, it’s not really about the weight loss, it’s about the energy and the creativity and the mental stamina that you get. And this is what I’ve really realized from just maintaining these different postures throughout the day and from moving my breath, I’m able to do 12 and 14 hour days with regularity without constantly burning out and exhausting myself, because the one of the most common things I’ll hear from people is they’ll say, I don’t understand why I’m so tired I haven’t done anything all day.

Zeena Dhalla: Yeah,

Zack Arnold: You know, and I’m sure that’s something you’ve heard too

Zeena Dhalla: Absolutely Well, it’s because there’s no blood flow happening in the body. So, yeah. So in addition to what I would recommend, 20 minutes a day of you know, targeted stretches and exercises to help you there. You can also stretch throughout the day. And for that, you know there’s some basic browser extension reminder tools that you can, you know, obviously download or remind you once an hour to take a stretch, bake, or what have you, or maybe you have something built into your program. But yeah, you know that you can stretch at your desk. You can roll your shoulders back. You can, in fact, right now, one of my favorite new stretches, if everyone’s listening, if they’re sitting in their chair, is they can just take your shoulders, lift them up by your ears, roll them backwards, and then take your hands and actually just grab them on the back of your chair, and kind of slip those hands underneath your chair. And right there, you’re going to get a chest stretch. You’re going to get a little back, squeeze a little little squeeze between the scapula blades there, and you’re going. To relax your shoulders all at the same time, and that takes one minute. And if you did that 12 times a day, it’d be better than doing nothing.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, absolutely. And for anybody that’s listening to this, whether you’re at your desk, but you can’t get in this position, or you’re in your car, or you’re taking a walk, once again, I want to remind you, I’m going to be linking to a detailed blog post that has visuals and pictures for all of these. So if you’re like, I don’t get it, that was really fast, and where am I putting my shoulder in my hand. I didn’t, I didn’t catch that. All that will be in the blog post with visual. So it’s a very easy, detailed, step by step breakdown of this stuff.

Zeena Dhalla: Please don’t do that stretch if you’re driving right now.

Zack Arnold: Yes, yes. Do not take both hands and reach behind your car seat and stretch your chest. That’s a really bad idea.

Zeena Dhalla: But what you could do if you’re driving right now is you could sit up tall, and you could think about pushing the back your head up against the chair behind you and just readjusting your posture that way. So that’s for the people that are driving right now.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, that’s a big one for me. I spent about three hours a day in the car when I was working on Empire, and it’s actually one of the reasons that I just I had to leave, is that it just wasn’t worth spending that amount of time. Number one, in my car. Number two, away from my kids,

Zeena Dhalla: I was gonna say on the car thing I have in my 15 years of doing this, I’ve been doing it in Southern California, where we drive a lot, right? I see a chronic tightness in the right glute and right adductor, so inner thigh that comes from our right foot going back and forth from the drivers, the pedal to the to the brake, back and forth. That is, like, pretty standard across the board. Like most people that walk in the door to my city are like, Yeah, my right hit, yeah, yeah, you drive a lot, don’t you? Yeah? Okay, let’s work on it, you know. So it’s an interesting what we the repetitive movement patterns we create from this technology driven society that we live in?

Zack Arnold: Yes, and that’s something that I when I went to my chiropractor, I had horrible issues in my right hip flexor. And she’s like, Well, my goodness, how much do you drive? I’m in the car about three hours a day, and, like, is it a really far drive? I’m like, No, it’s like, 20 miles. She’s like, Oh, my God, that’s pathetic. Well, that’s why your right hip flexor is such a mess, because it’s constantly and it’s not even so much from the break to the gas. It’s when you’re going like five to 10 miles an hour, and you just kind of have to tap the gas back and forth, back and forth. That’s the worst, where my leg would just get so sore after an hour or an hour and a half of being stuck in traffic because I couldn’t move it

Zeena Dhalla: Exactly

Zack Arnold: No. And there are a couple other really amazing stretches that I learned because I was researching, how can I stretch in my car because I’m tired of not moving. And that one that you talked about with pushing your head against the back of your seat back, that one’s amazing. What I would do to add to it, you can correct me if I’m wrong, but I would actually push my chin and hold my chin in so if I’m sitting there like because your your head is always pushed forwards all day long, with computers, with texting, all these positions that we’re in now, your head is always in front of your body. But if you take your chin and you actually physically push your chin, almost like you’re trying to get it stuck in your neck, and you do it against your car seat, I mean, the rush of just blood flow that you feel, you’re like, oh, like, that’s awesome,

Zeena Dhalla: Yeah. It’s like, it was like, you align yourself. It’s like you get a chiropractic adjustment. Chiropractic adjustment in that moment. Like, oh, this is where I’m supposed to be, you know,

Zack Arnold: Yeah. And I’ve actually heard, I’ve heard pops before. When I do that, it’s like, oh, man, something that just cracked when I did that. And another one that I do is, and you can’t do this while you’re driving fast, but if you’re stuck in your stops, which anybody living in Los Angeles can do this, 90% of your commute is, I will grab the wheel at nine and three, and I will, like, pull the wheel in, but pull my chest in so my elbows are going behind my back and I’m really pulling. And that’s an amazing way to reverse all the other negative adaptations in kind of your mid and upper thoracic area. Unless I’m wrong,

Zeena Dhalla: No, you’re absolutely right. That’s just basically mimicking a pulling exercise. And absolutely you can do that in your car. It’s a great one. You could even do so much is have your hands at nine and three and push down into the steering wheel, pushing like as if you’re pushing it down. And if you do that movement, you’ll feel your underarm muscles contract, and those are the muscles that you try that will help you bring your shoulders away from your ears. So a lot of times we live in the space where your shoulders are up by your ears, but if you push down into the steering wheel. And for me in the studio, I do it on a piece of equipment, but you could easily do it driving. You can feel those muscles engage, and that’s a great way to kind of retrain those muscles and remind yourself that I’m supposed to be using those muscles more than I actually do in my my everyday life.

Zack Arnold: That’s a good one. I haven’t done that one before, but I’m going to be in my car again very soon for a new show that I’m going to be jumping on. And I’m definitely going to try that because, though those were kind of my two go tos were the neck into the back of the seat and then pulling into the steering wheel with pulling the steering wheel down like I was just as you were describing it. I was doing it as if I was holding on to something, and I could already feel the stretching in the scalenes and getting the space between my ears and my shoulders. And it was like, Oh, that feels pretty good.

Zeena Dhalla: And if you push through the outside edge of your hand, so imagine your hand is your palm is open, and you’re on top of the steering wheel, and you push to the pinky side of your hand, you’ll even get those under our muscles even more. So you’re kind of working the lateral edge. So

Zack Arnold: That’s a good one. Well, where I want to go to next is going to be another one of these super, super common questions, and it might be the most common thread that I. See in all the different Facebook groups in my community, and I’m tagged in it all the time by other people. So people aren’t asking me, but if somebody inevitably tags me and they’re like, oh, just ask Zack. And that is about chairs. The best chairs, what should I be getting, in my opinion, is always, you know, there isn’t one great chair, because no matter how amazing it is or how much you spend on it, you’re going to be in one position, sedentary. So that’s always my answer, but I know that there are still certain types of chairs that help better. So if you can talk anything about that, and then also, I want to talk about yoga ball chairs, because that’s a very controversial topic. So let’s go into that area next.

Zeena Dhalla: Well, actually, my chair recommendation was going to be a yoga ball chair. I’ve been sitting on a yoga ball chair for years, and I love it in terms of chairs, you know, I’m not too familiar with all the specific kinds of chairs in terms of, like, an actual traditional chair. Again, it comes back to, can you sit on your sit bones? Are you? Can you sit in this chair? Can you sit on your sit bones? And can you have your pull your elbows back the ball chair? For me, is I love it? Yes, you’re right. It is controversial. Here’s why I love it. I love it. I love it because you can actually position yourself a little forward of the top of the ball so that you can feel those sit bones in the ball, and then you can find that neutral pelvis really easily. Because without the ball chair, I find myself scooting my butt backwards and then tucking under and then assuming that whole round back position that we’re trying to avoid. The other reason why I like the ball chair. Two other reasons is that the a little bit of instability that I get from sitting on it, I feel it feels good for my spine, and again, it takes away that immobility that happens when you’re sitting on a hard surface for hours on end. And then finally, I’ll actually take my one of my legs and I’ll reach it behind the chair, behind me. So this was a tough visual, but I can get a little hip flexor stretch really easily there, because there’s no side arms to the ball chair. So I’ll just swing my leg back. I’ll take a little hip flexor stretch. I’ll kind of move a little bit. I’ll switch sides and then, and then, because my ball chair, I use the guy on ball chair. It has a little handle on the back. I can reach back and do that stretch that I described earlier. I can do that and hold on to that back handle. So I find it a way to really, truly find mobility in my day,

Zack Arnold: Sure. And the reason that I bring it up is controversial, is that when the idea first came out, and it was probably, and it was 10 to 15 years ago, because I had the guy an ball chair, I think in like 2005 maybe, so it’s been around for at least 10 to 15 years, and I was a huge proponent of it, that I took it with me to every single job. It made a huge difference. But then when I started doing this and recommending it to others, I got kind of the same reaction over and over, which is, well, these ball chairs just don’t work because my neck and my shoulders hurt even worse. And at the time, I didn’t really know a lot about biomechanics, and I didn’t really understand what was going on. But then I saw a colleague that was using a ball chair when I was working on Empire, but he basically was just hunched all the way over all day long, where he was looking at his laptop with his elbows on the desk and his chin resting in his hand because he couldn’t maintain his position on the ball chair. And I’m sure you’ve probably seen that before,

Zeena Dhalla: Absolutely and sometimes I’ll catch myself every once while doing something like that, and I’ll correct myself. It comes down to anything else with any other chair, education, education, education. I mean, you just need to know how to sit in it and how to use it. And I do recommend to any clients that get the ball chair, start slowly, just like I would say, we said with yoga, just like I said with Pilates. You know, start an hour at a time, then two hours of time, then three hours at a time, you know. So let your body ease into it, because it is a bit of a shock. It’s different. It’s not what you’re used to. It doesn’t allow you to cheat as much as you normally would, because when you’re cheating on it, you’re almost falling off the ball,

Zack Arnold: Yeah. And the other thing that I love about the ball share is that you can either just get, like the big, giant blue ball, and you don’t even need to get the chair with the casters, but even if you get the one with the casters, one of my favorite exercises is that, especially in the afternoon, when you find you’re starting to hunt, or you find your low energy, I can just do like, for lack of a better analogy, like a snow angel on it, where you just lay on it and you roll back and open up, and it’s, it’s just an amazing exercise that you can’t do unless you have a ball in your room, and might as well use it as your chair,

Zeena Dhalla: Yeah, and it’s called chest stretch on the ball, and it’s my favorite stretch of all time. And it’s the number one thing if I give to somebody that’s, you know, still new in this process of learning about their body, they’re like, This is amazing. It’s cured so many things. I’m like, Yeah, it’s really simple. And if you have it in your office, absolutely. Now, if you’re in an office where people can see what you’re doing, you may not want to do that. There’s some other ways to stretch. Your chest. But if you can take your ball out of your of your ball chair and lay back on it like you just described, it feels amazing.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I’ve actually put people in that compromising position where my door was shut and I was doing one of those stretches and my feet were pointing towards the door. So if you’re walking in the door, you can just imagine what the view would look like with somebody bent over a ball, and they’re like, You know what? I’ll come back later.

Zeena Dhalla: Yes.

Zack Arnold: So yeah, I’ve definitely had my share of weird, awkward moments where people come into my room and I’m doing stretches or throwing kettlebells or something like that. I’ve become somewhat infamous for it so

Zeena Dhalla: Well, I would like our culture as a society to become such that that’s the norm that. You might walk into a big cubicle room of people at a call center, and 50% of them are doing their stretches, because why not? I mean, this is what, is what we have to do in order to sustain our bodies as a society,

Zack Arnold: Yeah, but we just have so much work to do. So it’s not, it’s not efficient. It’s not, you know, I just don’t have time. I can’t take breaks. People are gonna think I’m lazy. I can’t get out from my desk, and it’s so much better for me to sit in one position where 12 hours a day,

Zeena Dhalla: Yeah, that’s a recipe for disaster.

Zack Arnold: Exactly the last place I want to go before we finish up today is now I want to talk a little bit more about standing, because we’ve talked about some of the basic ideas and foundations of how to make sure you’re sitting better. And once again, we’ll have pictures and stretches and demos in this blog post. But now let’s talk a little bit about standing, because this is because this is another area where people think, well, if I stand, I’m healthy, but there’s you still have to understand proper posture, proper workstation setup. So there’s more to it than just I’m standing. Now,

Zeena Dhalla: Okay, so let’s talk about where your pelvis needs to be in a standing position. So if you look down at your pelvis, you’ll have two hip bones, and then you have a pubic bone at the very base of your pelvis. And in order to keep your pelvis in neutral, which is what we want when we’re standing, your hip bones and your pubic bone need to be flat, like, it’s like, I could put a piece of paper up against there, and that piece of paper is perpendicular to the floor. So that being said, it’s a little hard to find for new people. So what you could do when you’re standing is you could maybe rock your pelvis back and forth, so tuck it under, and then arch it back a little bit, and kind of find that middle space where your pelvis is. So that’s ideally how you want to be standing when you’re in a standing posture. But then you got to consider the upper body, so you got to pull the elbows back, like I mentioned, and you need to make sure that your standing workstation is at a level that that’s conducive, that if you pull your elbows back, that your hands, your elbow can be at that 90 degree angle, and your wrist can be strong. Can be straight, and all that other really good stuff that you need, and that your workstation is not like your you know, your monitor is not too low. So all those other factors that I’m sure you’ve talked about numerous times in your blog posts or your podcasts need to be in alignment. Then the other piece of it is you want to make sure that you’re not shifting into one leg more than the other. So I’ll find myself doing this if I have a desk that actually raises and lowers. So when I’m standing, I’ll find myself suddenly, like popping one hip out and kind of shifting into that hip. So what I do to combat that is I’ll actually actively stand on one leg. So I’ll lift one leg up, and then I’ll squeeze the standing leg, and I’ll squeeze the glutes, and I’ll kind of stay there for, I don’t know, a couple minutes, and I’ll switch, and I’ll kind of go back and forth, and that will activate my gluteus medius muscles and my glute muscles on the standing leg, and kind of get them woken up and remind me that I can’t do that whole shifting thing that I just explained. So those are a couple little tips for the standing posture.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and that was the, that was kind of the thing that I kept doing over and over, not realizing the damage it was doing where I was standing on a concrete floor, and it had like a quarter inch of carpet on it, because that’s how corporate offices are, but it’s basically standing on concrete. I had no mat. I was doing it for 12 hours a day. I didn’t even have a desk chair, and I was alternating back and forth all day between one leg and the other, and my IT bands just felt like steel rods, like I couldn’t even put my leg on a foam roller, because they were so tight and there were so many knots that I would scream in agony just trying to roll them out. And it was because I was doing that I was switching from one leg to the other all day long on a hard surface. Yeah, absolutely.

Zeena Dhalla: And then you talked about the math, that’s important too, standing on something. But how I do my day is, I’ll stand for probably more, no more than an hour, and then I’ll, you know, walk around, take a break, come down, sit down for a little bit on my ball chair, and then sit for a little and maybe hour or two, and then stand again. So again, it’s if you have the flexibility in your workstation to do that that’s optimal, because it it brings you back to movement versus the immobility.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, absolutely, that’s what I prescribe, as well as I say, you should never be in one position more than, I mean, an hour at the most. I try to move around every 30 minutes or so, but an hour is kind of the limit, and I alternate back and forth where I have probably, I don’t know, four or five standard positions that I’ll do for 45 to 60 minutes at a time, and one of them being this is actually something I wanted to ask you about specifically, because I don’t honestly know what the consensus is on this. But what do you think of kneeling chairs? Because that’s what I’ve been using, and have gotten a lot of benefit from it. But what are your thoughts on those?

Zeena Dhalla: Are you talking about the kneeling chair where your your knees are bent, and then you’re kind of hip you’re sitting in a bit of hip flexion? Yes, the old fashioned chairs? Yeah, I love those. Where did you get one? I need to get one of those.

Zack Arnold: I think I just got it off the Amazon. They’re super cheap. It’s less than 100 bucks. I actually it’s something that I prescribe in the My move yourself program and I do a visual demonstration, but that was one of those areas where I didn’t know what the consensus was. I just knew that it had been recommended in some random podcast that I heard from a bio mechanist. And I’m like, Oh, I’m going to try this. I tried it, and I’m like, Whoa. I love this chair. And I put it in the program, but I had never actually had a conversation with somebody to verify that I was actually making the right choice. So if you’d said, Oh, those are total crap, I would have been like, oh, maybe I need to take it out of my course then. But now I don’t. So that’s great.

Zeena Dhalla: No, you don’t. You need to keep it in your course. You need to send me the link to where you bought yours, because I had one a while ago. And then I don’t know what happened, I moved or something. And, no, I. Love the biomechanics of that. That’s awesome. Because remember I talked about that, you know, the pelvis position and wanting to be slightly more arch than we probably are, that position, the way the knee bends and the way that the hip is bent, that’s perfect for that.

Zack Arnold: Great. Oh, I’m very, very glad to hear that. So before I lose you, I want to make sure that you have the opportunity to talk a little bit more about your program and your brand new course, because it is going to be fantastically helpful for people that really don’t know where to start but they want to make changes. So this is basically your ability to pitch and pitch away.

Zeena Dhalla: Thank you. Well, first you need to sign up for Zack scores. Then you need to sign up for my course, which is called the slouch solution, and it’s a four week program, as I mentioned, I believe strongly, in the 20 minute a day, six days a week, technique to help strengthen your back muscles, stretch out, your chest muscles stretch out, you know, those leg muscles that get super tight. So it’s a four week coaching program. So when you sign up, you will get daily workouts sent to your email, and you’ll log in, and there’s videos of me performing all the exercises. All the workouts are designed to be 20 to be 20 to 25 minutes in length. And then there is actually the ability to record yourself doing an exercise that you’re unsure of, upload it and get feedback from me and coaching from me. So yep, it’s a brand new course just opened up. It’s my beta launch, and I’m really excited about it, because I’ve been working on this for, I’d say, about 15 years. I really believe that the consistent, you know, daily or at least six days a week, plan, is how you can really, truly make a difference in your posture and eliminate your pain

Zack Arnold: Absolutely. Now to clarify, is it 20 minutes straight, where you just block out 20 minutes, or is it the kind of thing where you do five minutes four times a day in front of your desk?

Zeena Dhalla: No, it’s 20 minutes straight. It’s meant to be. A lot of the exercises are done on a on the floor and the you only need three pieces of equipment. That’s a foam roller, which everyone should have, a stability ball, which, if you buy the guy on ball chair, then you can, you’ll have your ball, and then a tennis ball. And so it’s designed to be, you know, we do some breathing, we do a little stretching, we do a little strengthening. Boom, 20 minutes later, you’re done. And the workouts do repeat. So there’s about two workouts a week and alternating days. So once you the first day, you do it the second and third day, it goes a little faster because now you know the exercises. So there’s some you can maybe get it 25 minutes the first day down to 15 minutes by the by the last day of the week.

Zack Arnold: I love it. I mean, that sounds like something that just fits perfectly in everything that I’m doing. So I think that that may, you may end up getting a free plug in my course as well. So you’ll just be randomly getting people that are like, Hey, I heard about you from this movie yourself thing. So

Zeena Dhalla: Yeah, thank you. And it utilizes, you know, some Pilates, some strength training, some yoga, some egoski, if you’re familiar with Peter gossies work, some foundation training, if you’re familiar with Eric Goodman’s work. So it’s really, you know, a compilation of what I what I have learned over the last 15 years that really helps across the board with and it’s designed for hunchback posture, so people who are looking to improve that kyphosis and that forward head posture. But we, of course, will tackle the quads, the hip flex, or the IT band, the adductors, because those you know, the body is a kinetic chain. Everything is interconnected, so you need to hit it all. We do work on breathing, and we work on core strength, inner core strength, not crunches. You will never do a crunch in my course, but you may do some planking, and you may do some, you know, other activities that help strengthen those inner core muscles.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, anybody that was in my 5x challenge a month or so ago, they know all about planking because I made a five minute plank, and everybody told me it can’t be done. And then two hours later they were putting up videos of them doing five minute planks. So

Zeena Dhalla: That’s amazing.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, it was pretty awesome. So remind me one more time, what is the website that people can go to to learn about you and also learn about this course and join it?

Zeena Dhalla: Yes, it’s verticalign.com. My, my business is vertical and posture coaching. So that’s V, E, R T, I C, A, L, I G, N.com.

Zack Arnold: Awesome. Well, this has been an absolute pleasure. Zeena, I’m so glad that we were finally able to make this happen, and I truly hope that I’m able to funnel as many people as possible from my audience into your program, because it I mean, just absolutely sounds fantastic and perfect for this, this audience.

Zeena Dhalla: Thank you. Zack, I’m so happy to be here. This is really fun talking to you, and together, we will change the world.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Got lower back pain, neck tension, or regular headaches? Learn how easy it is to alleviate these issues in just a few minutes a day…right at your desk.

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The Magic of Postural Modification (And How It Can Cure Your Back Pain Better Than a Doctor)

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