Zack Arnold

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Surviving the Insanity of the Edit Suite | with Billy Goldenberg, ACE

Do Your Best Creative Work Navigate Your Career

About Episode

Billy Goldenberg is the Oscar-winning film editor of such films as Detroit, Argo, Zero Dark Thirty, The Imitation Game, several of the Transformers films, the National Treasure franchise, and many more. He’s done numerous collaborations with Michael Mann, Ben Affleck, Michael Bay, and he even won his Oscar the same year that his mentor Michael Kahn was nominated (if you’re not familiar with Michael Kahn, he’s Steven Spielberg’s longtime editor and collaborator). Needless to say, Billy Goldenberg knows a thing or two about what it takes to be successful in Hollywood.

Sure, it’s easy to look at someone’s career like Billy’s from the outside and think, “Yeah it’s amazing what he’s done with his career, but c’mon, the guy was Michael Kahn’s assistant editor…there’s no way I’m going to be able to be as successful as he was!” there are actually fundamental steps you can extract from anyone’s career journey and apply to your own, and Billy is no different.

In this episode rather than chatting about the ins-and-outs of film editing, Billy and I walk through his path from the beginning to where he is now and break down some of the lesser known skills necessary to be successful in any creative field where you collaborate with others on a regular basis.

We discuss how important it is to respect the job you currently have and do great work at it while also being honest about what you want to do next, how honest you really should when giving your thoughts and feedback to producers and directors, the editor as the psychologist of filmmaking, and what it takes to move forwards given how demanding your current job probably already is, just to name a few examples.

Transcript

Zack Arnold: I’m here today with none other than the Billy Goldenberg, and this is an awesome experience for me just personally because I actually had the opportunity to do an Edit Suite visit many, many, many years ago when you were working on, I believe it was Miami Vice at the time, and to be able to follow up and have this conversation today and connect these two parts of my journey together is really awesome. So I really appreciate you being on the show today and sharing your expertise with me and my audience.

Billy Goldenberg: No, it’s my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Zack Arnold: You have a little bit of a resume. We’re going to just kind of go through a very, very short list, very briefly. Your most recent credit being Detroit. You’ve also worked on movies like Concussion, The Imitation Game, Transformers, Zero Dark 30, Argo, National Treasure, Miami Vice, Domino, like I probably would waste the whole hour if I actually listed all the credits that people would recognize. So I’m not going to do that. But needless to say, you know your way around an edit suite, and you’ve worked on some of the most seminal films of our recent generation. So, what I want to understand is your process to get from where you started to where you are now, and really deconstruct it, because I really think it’s important that younger people that are looking at somebody like you, and I know that you’re you know active and you’re on panels and speak and stuff. It’s always well. How do I break in? How did you do it? And what happens a lot of times is you hear these stories and people say, “Oh, well, I can never do that. That’s great, but that’s never going to happen to me. My belief is that everybody can follow a specific set of steps, forging their own path along the way. So I want to understand your steps. So let’s kind of start at the the beginning of your journey, and just explain how you first got interested in getting into the film industry and how you broke in.

Billy Goldenberg: Well, it’s I came to it a little bit later, probably than most people. I wasn’t someone who was you know eight years old making eight millimeter films in their garage. I love the movies, but never you know no one in my family works in the arts in any way, so it never really occurred to me to do that. I grew up in Philadelphia, in sort of a middle class neighborhood, and and my father was, you know, like any Jewish dad, wanted me to be a doctor. And so when I went to school at Temple University, I was originally going to be to be a doctor, and and it didn’t take very long for me to realize that that wasn’t my calling, so I didn’t really know what to do with myself. So I, some family friends suggested the film business, and I thought, well, okay, I’ll try that, you know. So and it turns out that Temple University has an excellent film school, an Annenberg School of Communication and Theater, and so I switched over to the film school and instantly fell in love with it. And as I was there, in my senior year, I did all I did everything. You know, directed films, directed photographies, did sound, did everything. And my last year, I started doing a lot of editing, and I fell in love with it. And knew that that was kind of what I wanted to do. And I was got I got a lot of positive feedback from one of the professors I had there about my editing. I showed him a whole year’s worth of work at one in one sitting, and he was impressed by the editing and suggested that I pursue that as a career. And it was the first time anyone had ever encouraged me to do something in any field, really, or complimented me, or told me I was good at something. I didn’t get a lot of positive reinforcement at home. I think so. Anyway, so I came to California. My dad and his, my dad and my stepmother lived here in California at the time, so I had some place to go, and eventually got a job as a gopher. They, I don’t know if they still call them that, but it’s sort of one step below a production assistant, where you know I was running. It was before the internet, so every time I worked on a television show they had, every time there was a new script page, I would have to drive it all over Hollywood and deliver it, and get lunches and make juice for the guy who ran a company and do all kinds of stuff like that. But eventually, that hard work paid off, and I really worked hard and and never complained, and I went the extra mile all the time, and to try and prove myself because I knew how hard it was to get my foot in the door, and I didn’t want to, you know, I didn’t want to not take advantage of it. So then, so after about seven months, they started up a television movie called High School USA, and they asked me if I wanted to be a set PA, and I naively said, “Can I? Well, that’s so nice of you, but could I be the apprentice editor? And now I think about that and realize what a sort of presumptuous thing that was to ask me. I just should have said. I mean, most people would just go, “Thank you for the opportunity. But I, I felt comfortable enough with them that I asked to be the apprentice editor, and they said yes. And the editor of the TV movie was this guy named John Wright, who went on to cut speed in the hunt for Red October, and he was John McTiernan’s editor for years. And you know he he had been a feature film editor and came back and do this television movie as a favorite of the producers. So I got lucky in that I was able to train with his assistant and him and learn how to do things and how they do it on the sort of top level. So Kathy Verkler, who was his assistant, trained me to be an assistant, and she was incredible, and really took me under her wing as an assistant.

Billy Goldenberg: I ended up doing three or four things in a row with them, and I got into the union working on a show with them called Mass Appeal. Along the way, I worked on Firestarter. I worked on The Breakfast Club as an apprentice for Dee Dee Allen, which is a real thrill. And I did a lot of movies in a very short time, like three months here, two months there, four months there, and I got a quite a bit of quite a few credits as an apprentice within a few years, and then I eventually went on to work as for Bruce Green on a film called Punchline, and I was his second assistant, and he had been Michael Cahn’s first assistant, who’s Steven Spielberg’s editor, and when Michael was looking for a new first assistant, Bruce recommended me. I went to meet Michael, and he liked me, and and he hired me to be his first assistant. And that sort of was the the moment that changed my life in terms of finding someone who would mentor me and take me under his wing as, and teach me how to be an editor, teach me how to sort of unearth the talent I had as an editor, teach me how to the politics of being the editor, the methodology, the whole thing. I mean, it was an incredible experience working for Michael, and I did it for four years, and it was grueling, grueling work on, and we worked on Alive and Arachnophobia, and then I worked on Always with him and Hook, and and then we did Toy Soldiers, and and like and they we ended up doing Alive, which is the last film I did with him, and he moved me up to be an editor on that film, and shared a main title credit with me, and then I started cutting on my own. But he changed my life. I mean, he looked at me, and you know, after working with him for a while and making suggestions and working with him in the room, you know, day and night, basically, he said to me, you know, you don’t know you’re talented, but I do, and you’ve got a knack for this, and he just took it upon himself to to turn me into an editor, and and like I said, taught me so many things that I still, after I’ve been cutting on my own for 20 over 20 years, still think about things he taught me and how would Mike handle it and how would Mike deal with this and what would he do and how would he approach this scene and and so as he gave me a gift that I can never repay. So that’s kind of a very short version of how it all happened. But you know, I did take the route that is to me is the best way to do it. It takes a little more time, but I learned from the bottom, bottom to the top in terms of how to do all the jobs, how to yeah, and how to do them well and with with a great attitude, whether it be getting someone’s lunch or coffee or cutting a giant scene on a Catherine Bigelow movie, you know I I have the same sort of how do I do the best job I can do, how do I help the best way I can help, you know. And how do I have the best attitude I can have?

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and those are two very important things that I wanted to hit. That as well as another, because looking at your journey once again, because there’s no set forged path to become a film editor or get to high levels in the film industry or other creative industries, people often think, well, I don’t know where to go. It’s not like becoming a doctor or a lawyer. So, what are the set steps? And the two that I really want to hit first are one, which you kind of hit already, which is this idea that you are doing your job extremely well. And I find, and maybe you have found as well, that when you’re working with other assistants now or other PAs now, that sometimes that’s overlooked, where they’re they’re making it very clear that oh I really want to be an editor someday, and you’re thinking well that’s great, but you have to be an amazing PA first, or you have to be an amazing assistant editor. But then on top of that, you also after you do an unbelievable job with what you’re getting paid for, you have to be open and honest and say, well, really, this is what I want to do, and I love the part of your story where you were like, well, I was really presumptuous, but I’m like, can I just be an apprentice editor instead? That is so important to build that level of confidence where, when an opportunity does arise, because you’ve worked really hard and done great at the job you’re getting paid for, that you can be assertive enough to say, you know what, this is really what I wanted. Imagine where you might be right now if you’d become the set PA instead of the apprentice editor. Just that one decision, right?

Billy Goldenberg: Yes, it was a it was a gigantic decision. And like I said, had I been around longer, I probably wouldn’t have asked it. I think that if somebody came to. I probably would. I don’t know. I probably would advise them not to ask and to say take what they’re giving you. You know, which would probably be bad advice, I suppose. But you know, because now that I’ve been around for a really long time, it feels like I know how hard jobs are to come by, and that you never look at a gift horse in the mouth sort of thing. If they’re offering you a job, take it because you don’t want them to think, well, you don’t want that job. You know, then maybe you should have no job. You know, that would be my worry to give somebody the advice and don’t, don’t, don’t take that job. Ask for something else, you know. So, but I don’t. It might have been just being naive, or maybe they just. Maybe I felt comfortable with them as a long time ago. So, I may have just felt very comfortable with them. I’ve been working there about seven months, and I was got close to everybody there. So, maybe I just felt comfortable enough to say it, but you know, and they had seen how hard I worked, and I think I knew, and I was appreciated for it. So maybe there was a comfort level there that that didn’t scare me to ask. But yeah, I mean, you have to sort of know how to pick your spots, you know, and that goes for when you’re a PA, and it goes for when you’re an editor. You know when to ask certain questions, when to not ask, when to sit quietly, and when to speak up. You know, I think it’s a, it’s definitely a skill. It’s and then maybe just comes innately to me or to other people, or maybe it’s partly learned. You know, you have to know when you’re being intrusive, and when you’re not, you know, and maybe I just had a innate knack for that and didn’t ask it in the in the wrong way. So I can’t really put my finger on why they said yes. Maybe you know, obviously they saw something in me and wanted to help me, but so it’s it’s sort of an unknowable answer.

Zack Arnold: Well, I think the part of it is that you probably earned the right to ask that question because they respected you and they’re already offering you a job. I think the way that you deliver your response is also incredibly important. If you show gratitude and say, “Listen, this sounds awesome. I so appreciate it. Here’s the thing, though. I really, really am interested in editing. Is there any chance whatsoever there might be something in editing instead? That’s not going to be looking a gift horse in the mouth. That’s going to be using the trust that you’ve earned to see if there’s another opportunity. And what I think is so funny is you saying, “Well, if I’d you know been in the business a little bit longer, I probably wouldn’t have asked. And I think that you can either look at that as, “Well, I would have learned along the way that I shouldn’t, but my feeling is you would have been conditioned to believe you’re not supposed to do that, whereas I’m a little bit more bold and assertive than maybe others, and I think what you did was the right way to do it, and clearly it was the springboard that led you down a very different fork in the road than had you just accepted that. So it’s so important that you like quote unquote said the wrong thing because it made all the difference in your entire career, in your life,

Billy Goldenberg: Yeah, without a doubt. Yeah, I mean, and probably, I am sure that because I was incredibly grateful for the for the opportunity they were offering, I’m sure I answered it or asked. I mean, in the way that you did, so I’m sure I was. They could tell how grateful I was to to have the opportunity. So you know, and I think that I feel like I’m a fairly sincere person, and I think I assume that comes across. You know that I don’t try to get ahead of myself in terms of how I present myself, and I and I think I’m sincere in the way I feel about things, and I’m I mean I try to be honest at every turn. So I think that again that comes across. So I think that’s probably served me well along the way.

Zack Arnold: Well, I have a feeling that that plays a gigantic role in why you’ve been successful as an editor. So let’s just go there. I mean, I really believe that being a successful film editor, TV editor, trailer editor-it doesn’t really matter what medium you’re working with. If you can’t bring a level of honesty and integrity, then you can’t really be an editor because it’s so easy, especially nowadays, to get caught up in the tech and say, “I’m a Final Cut X editor. I’m an Adobe Premiere Pro editor. I’m an avid editor. It’s like, who cares? Like, I just don’t care. We’re storytellers, and part of being a great storyteller is allegiance to the story and being honest when somebody might be bringing ideas that aren’t going to be the best for the story. So, can you talk a little bit about honing your ability to just be honest in the room? Because clearly, it served you well. Because you’ve worked with some of the top filmmakers in the history of filmmaking.

Billy Goldenberg: Well, I think that you know, I don’t think I know any other way to do it. You know, I think when you say honest, you have to be careful about your honesty. I mean, you can’t hurt someone. You know, you can’t. There’s like blunt honesty to the point where you’re going to hurt someone’s feelings or put them off. You know, you have to be very diplomatic with your honesty, and you know, make sure that. I mean, I think you have to make sure that you don’t have to say the words, but make sure that whoever you’re giving your opinion to knows it’s basically just that it’s your opinion. You know, I may be wrong, but the way I feel, or the way I feel, is this. You know, so it’s not like you’re making a giant mistake. You know that. You know what I mean. Like you have to be very diplomatic, and you have. I think part of being an editor is being part psychologist, and like I was saying earlier, to know when to ask something, know when to say something, and what. When to be a little more forceful or a little less forceful? I mean, I think you really have to understand the psyche of the person you’re talking to and their state of mind because it’s their movie. You know, when you’re an editor, you’re trying to make the director’s film, so you have to always keep in mind their state of mind and and you sort of adapt to that because it’s you know their agenda, the film’s agenda, and you’re somewhere third or fourth or whatever. The film editor’s agenda is not the most important agenda. So, I mean, you you have to really understand the politics of that in a way that I think again part of it might be disintnate understanding of it, but a lot of it has to do with watching Michael Kahn operate with Steven Spielberg and and the way he treats Steven and the way Steven treats him and and I really observed that how other editors I worked with dealt with directors they were working with when I mean when I was an assistant and and really try to learn the best ways to to handle those situations and like I said, be honest, but be diplomatically honest. You know, and and if you have to be a little harder, pick the spots of when to do that. You know, if you have to be a little tougher, like when when is it important to do that? So all those things are such important skills for a young editor to learn in terms of how to navigate a long post production process. You know, in a way that you just you just do this that you’re trusting the process that you have this, whether it be in a television show, it’s obviously a lot shorter, but on a feature film, you get a much longer. It’s much longer process, like and trusting the process and trusting that things come to light and you can say things, you know, you can be a little tougher later on than earlier on because you you know the film better. I mean, there are a lot of different. It’s not just make sure you’re honest. I mean, it’s a very complicated honesty.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I can certainly say from my own personal experience that as a young editor, I made all of the mistakes that you make when people give you notes, give you feedback, partly because I didn’t have the, I guess the luxury is not the word, but I didn’t have that experience of going the route you did, where I started at the bottom, worked as an assistant, worked as an apprentice, and I worked under top editors. I just jumped in, and I’ve been editing my entire career. I was only an assistant for like five months at a trailer house, got bumped up to trailer editor, and from there transitioned right into editing indie features, and then working on script television, and you know now working on stuff that’s on TV, and I never really had the benefit of watching somebody and be like, “Oh, I get this. So what I did was I just crashed and burned over and over and over with all the wrong responses. So rather than me going into my story so much, though, I would love to know what are some of the things that you see either younger editors or assistants like some of the mistakes that they make when they’re getting raw feedback.

Billy Goldenberg: Well, the thing that Michael did for me again, I hate to keep. I mean, I don’t hate to go keep going back, but a lot of it does go back to Michael when when I was start when I was working with him and he would give me scenes to cut when you’re in cutting. You trust your first assistant. You start giving them stuff to cut, you know, to help them along like you’ve been helped along before. So, he would give me scenes to cut, and this happened especially on a live because that was the the last thing we did together. I hadn’t been moved up to editor yet. I was still assisting, and he would give me scenes and give me notes on those scenes, and then I would do the notes, and then he he would he would look at it again, and I would do the notes, and I would look at it again, give me more notes and more notes, and it never seemed to end, and the notes never seemed to be any less. You know what I mean? I didn’t see anything. I was it was getting to the point where it’s almost done, or just one or two more things, and then we’ll be done. And at a certain point, after about six go rounds like that with the same scene, I said to Michael, “You know, I just don’t think I’m getting this. I don’t think that I’m maybe I’m not cut out to do this. I don’t think it never seems to get better. I keep having the same amount of notes every time. And he said, “You don’t understand. The scene’s fine. It has nothing to do with the scene. What I’m trying to do is get you to learn how to take criticism and to not take it personally and to understand that it has nothing to do with you, really, it has to do with the film and making the film better, and that you can’t let musically show. You can’t let them see you sweat. You can’t let them know it hurts your feelings. You can’t let the director see that you’re taking it personally, because then they’re going to be reluctant to give you notes, and then they’re going to be annoyed that they can’t be honest with you and give you notes because you know they’re just trying to make the movie better. So he that that’s a lesson that I again it was like 25 years ago and it’s as if I I see my head every day because you know when you’re cutting stuff and you put your heart and soul into it and then if somebody looks and goes yeah it’s not really that what I was looking for it, you know, it hurts your feelings, but you can’t let them know that. You have to be enthusiastic about it. You have to condition your mind to think, okay, this isn’t about me. This is about making the movie better. Okay, let’s be and let’s let’s embrace those changes and see if they’re good, and embrace trying to make it better. Maybe you. Right, and maybe you were wrong, but like, just trust the process of that, and you know, embrace the changes, embrace the trying new things, and see if this gets better, and then maybe it’ll come around in the way you cut it. The first way is the best way, and maybe it’s not. And so that, so I think that’s a gigantic lesson I learned, and I was taught it early on by Michael, and and it’s with me every day because you know you’re working with.

Billy Goldenberg: I’m fortunate enough to work with these directors that are fairly high powered, and you know there’s they’re really smart, you know, and and you may think you’ve just you know done something so special, and they might not feel that way, and you can’t let them see your eyes like not literally, but you know, your eyes looking shell shocked, or starting to cry, or get upset, or get pissed off. You just have to embrace it in an enthusiastic way, but not a phony way, but you know, a way that feels like, yeah, let’s let’s try that. Yeah, maybe that’s maybe that’ll be better. Let’s do it. You know, so that’s I would think a lesson that every editor needs to to learn if they don’t know it already.

Zack Arnold: Not just even every editor, but anybody that does highly creative work. It’s so hard to separate yourself from your work because we don’t do data entry. We’re not you know cleaning laundry. We’re not serving sandwiches. Like we’re putting ourselves into our work and our music choices or our pacing choices, like that’s part of our personality, and it’s one of the toughest skills I think to learn in any creative industry is how not to take it personally. And it took me years to figure that out because I was always thinking, well, they don’t like my choices and they don’t like the work that I’m doing, and I’m gonna that makes me angry, and I’m gonna fight back and defend myself until I realized it’s not about me. It’s about the project. It’s about the story, and my particular perspective in this instance might not have been the right one, and that’s okay. But that doesn’t mean I’m a bad person or I made bad choices. I just didn’t make the right choice for the story, and I think that’s an immensely important lesson for an editor or a creative to really learn early on. And I love the story of basically him running you through the ringer, giving you all these notes. I’ve never actually met Michael Kahn, but I already like him. Just knowing that story, because it’s like this is going to be boot camp for learning how to really survive this industry. I’m just going to give you notes over and over and over until you crack. Like that’s my kind of guy. I love that, but he did it in such a loving, compassionate way, knowing that it would serve you 25 years later, like that’s amazing.

Billy Goldenberg: Yeah, no, it was a gift for sure. You know, I realized how fortunate it was to have him as my mentor. So I try, and you know, I don’t consider myself Michael Khan, but I do able to help people. I’ve helped some of my assistants along the way, whether get them jobs as editors, help them along, recommend them. You know, hopefully teach them something because I’m a very inclusive editor in terms of having my assistants in the room, my production assistants. Every you know, I like to include everybody in the creative process because you know, hopefully you align yourself with a crew that that are not only good at their jobs in terms of, you know, assistance that’s good as good at assisting, but is also creative and has a really not has a good editing sense. So, you know, it’s nice to get feedback from other people to me and not just isolate myself in a room. I think it helps me sometimes to have other people in the room just to see it through their eyes, you know, and see can sort of feel what’s working, what’s not, based on the vibe you get with someone else in the room. So, because I think when you’re in the room so long by yourself, you can get a little, you know, cross-eyed about stuff sometimes.

Zack Arnold: Well, and that’s something that’s really changed quite a bit over the last 10 to 20 years, and you’ve seen that transition happen. I’m making the assumption that when you were working as Michael Cahn’s assistant, you were standing next to Michael Cahn, like you were handing him trims and going in, like you were with him in the room. But nowadays, with the way the technology works, a lot of assistants they’ll spend 14 hours a day doing exports and uploads and asperas and all the other crazy tech stuff. So, what suggestions do you have for somebody that wants to become an editor and be at the caliber that you are, but they feel like they’re so drowning in paperwork and technology, and they never get to sit in the room and watch you sit with a director and learn the politics of taking notes? Like, with the transition we made to digital, a lot of that mentorship has been lost. So, do you have any thoughts or suggestions on how to kind of have a similar path as you, but in this more digital age?

Billy Goldenberg: We can come work in my editing room because I’m very inclusive. You know, I mean that’s a tough one because the work has to get done. You know, and more and more the films. There’s so much assistant work. The assistants work so many hours, and there’s so much demand. You know, depends if there’s any time left in the day or weekends. You can certainly ask, you know, if you feel very comfortable with the editor, if you can manage an avid or it’s a digital editing system that you can make you know an infinite number of copies. So whether you can try and put a small scene together or start or just try your hand at cutting a. You know, just because you’re, and then you know, with the editor’s permission, do that. Show it to the editor. Try and get some feedback. That’s one way to maybe you know have the editor understand that you’re not only interested in actually cutting, but that you’re good at it. I mean, you have to make sure that all your regular work is done. That’s something you can ask, and you know, I mean, it’s a simple thing to say, also, but you can also watch a lot of movies. You know, I find so much these days that when I go and speak to classes and at film schools, or that nobody’s seen a movie before 1970 or 1990. Sometimes, I mean, and you know, look at the edit, the movies that have look at every movie that’s won the Oscar for best editing in the last 50 years and watch them all, and then watch them with the sound off because you can really look at. I find that maybe you can really feel the rhythm of of editing when you when you have the sound off, and and and then you know ask questions you know to to your editor. Ask questions about why they’ve done stuff. Ask questions about you know, or make suggestions that if they’re it’s an appropriate time to make them. You know, I think you have to figure out lots of different ways to to get that ment a mentorship or get those editing skills. I mean, it is an unfortunate thing, and I’ve tried to because I grew up. You say I was yes handing trims to Michael at the movieola and making changes on the cam while he supervised me, and that was incredible. And but so I learned that way. So I do the same thing. So consequently, I’m lucky enough to have a crew that’s you know a good size crew. I’m occasionally you get strapped with like not just just barely enough people or not even enough people, and then it becomes more difficult to have the assistant be involved. But I invite them into the room. I want them. I need their help. Appreciate their help. It makes the movie better. So you know. So it’s kind of it’s kind of obviously it’s a very large answer to a to a question because there is no sort of exact way to do it, but those are some suggestions.

Zack Arnold: Well, and I think it really goes back to the very first thing that we talked to once again is that step one: be amazing at your job. Like, don’t ask to cut scenes and say, “Can I sit in with you if your work isn’t done? That’s one of the mistakes that I’ve seen multiple times, and I worked with an assistant once that did that, where I would ask him to, you know, can you do all the sound design for this act of the show, or do these outputs or whatnot? And none of it really got done, or at least done well. But then he’d come in and say, “Hey, you have any scenes for me to cut? And I’m like, “But you haven’t even done your job yet. So I think that step one, you got to do your job amazingly well, and then step two, you have to once again assert yourself because you can’t just say, “Well, I’m working next to Michael Cahn, and I’m going to do that all day long, and I can just through osmosis, through observation, learn the process. Because it doesn’t work that way anymore, you have to earn that trust to be able to assert yourself and say, “Hey, you know, do you mind if I just pop in and watch you for an hour or two, or can I just grab this one scene that I just organized for you? Can I do my own version? I think that obviously you have to have a good relationship with your editor. If you’re listening and you’re an assistant or you’re a co-editor and you don’t feel comfortable, don’t do that. But if you’ve earned that right and you have a really good relationship, the worst they’re going to say is no, but the best are going to say, and the chances are 90% They’re going to be like, “Yeah, of course, go ahead. And then the door starts to open.

Billy Goldenberg: Yeah, I mean, I would wish, I would hope that you know, I just think it’s such, it’s so great to have your editing room be a community. You know, where you feel like everybody’s, you know, if you involve your assistants, they have, they they invest themselves, you know, in the film, and it feels like everybody’s working in the right in this for the same goal. You know, it’s not just oh, my job is to get lunch for the PA. No, my job is I’m working on this movie. You know, I’m a part of the team, and that’s so much more fun for everybody, and it’s more fun for me. You know, I’m not doing it just so everybody have a better time. I think and doing it because I think it makes a better movie. And I, you know, I mean, I’ve worked on films where it’s like where it’s impossible to to do that. And when you because it’s so busy, you know, the Transformer movies are so busy that it’s hard to it’s hard to say, hey, come sit in here with me and tell me you think of this is because they’re overwhelmed. They’re so busy, so you know you you have to just you know pick your spots, you know, and figure out when it’s okay and when it’s not.

Zack Arnold: Well, I’m glad that you brought up this idea of impossible films and crazy schedules because that’s exactly where I wanted to go next. Is I want to make sure the people that are listening today, if they’re assistants, if they’re coming up, they got some great tips and some ideas from you about how they can move to the next level. But now, if there’s somebody, let’s say, you know, at my level where they’re already editing, they’re working on stuff that’s out in the world, but they want to get better. I don’t think that there are a few people that I could talk to that would better understand the politics of crazy films and working with incredibly intense directors. Than you. I mean, you’ve done several films with Michael Mann. You’ve done Transformer films like Michael Bay. I mean, it seems like a lot of the intense directors have the first name Michael. I don’t know what that’s about. But anyway, I would love to just get a little bit of an insight into what it looks like in the cutting room of a film like Heat or Miami Vice or the transformers, and just like I’ve, I’ve, you know, we’ve met in person a few times. I’ve been to your edit suite. Like you’re still very tall, slender, look like you’re very healthy, but that that stress can kill you. So I’m just wondering what the psychology is and how you manage these really intense projects, and you continually are able to do them year after year after year.

Billy Goldenberg: Oh, you know, you have to really be patient, you know, and you really have. I mean, you know, after a while, you sort of get used to the hours. I mean, you don’t, I guess, ever really get used to working 14, 1618-hour, days, but you do understand what it’s like, so it’s not a surprise. I mean, on the Michael Mann movies, you know, I mean, I didn’t really know what I was in store for when I did Heat because it was the first one I did with him. But he’s brilliant, and he’s one of you know the top filmmakers this generation. So you know, I just felt like my God, I’m so lucky to be with somebody to work with somebody that’s so talented that it’s worth it, you know, to me, to give that much of myself and that much time, because for the opportunity of working with somebody who’s that talented, and partly, yeah, again, again, it’s just also it’s the job, and you can like you’re not being held hostage there. You can leave, you know, and say this isn’t for me, and people have done that, so you know it’s the opportunity to work with somebody that’s that talented. How many how many people are like that? How many you know? So to to and you get better as a film editor. It’s just invigorating creatively and intellectually because he’s so bright. But it can be really difficult. I mean, it’s and it’s not that Michael’s even a difficult person. I mean, I guess in a way he is, but it’s more the difficulty comes out of his perfect his being a perfectionist. He wants to try everything. He wants he wants to you know try and get everything perfect to make every story point as perfect as it can be. To have every cut as perfect as it can be. Try everything from every different angle, look under every rock, you know, and so you have to just know that that’s what you were in store for. But in the long run, the benefit outweighs the sacrifice.

Zack Arnold: Working on a Michael Mann film or a Michael Bay film, where I think everybody that knows even a little bit about this industry, they know that six seven day weeks for 14 to 18 hours a day. That’s just kind of part of the package. That’s just the way that it’s going to work if you’re going to get to films at the level that you work on. So knowing that and knowing you just kind of have to accept it, and the payoff is that you get to work with these incredibly creative people. Are there practical things that you do on a daily basis, whether it’s specific routines or habits, just things that allow you. Like, let’s say that I was talking to you and you were a professional marathon runner or a triathlete, right? You still have to adopt certain types of habits in order to endure these kinds of schedules. So, I’m curious if there are just certain routines or habits that you’ve adopted just to be able to endure working on films at this level.

Billy Goldenberg: Well, I mean, you know, I don’t get enough sleep, even when I’m not working on a hard film. But I would say try and get more as much sleep as you can get, even though you may not only get it. You know, you may only have. I mean, you have to get eight hours between shifts because that’s that’s the union rules. But I really force myself to try and eat as healthy as I can and to exercise because it just, I just feel better. Even even if it makes me have less sleep, I still try and exercise, you know, several times a week. Because I ultimately feel better because of it. Because I just feel healthier. And you know, it’s so easy in an editing room to you know shove bagels down your throat and candy and and you know drink a million sodas and you know what I mean, and eat healthily, and and to not exercise. It’s really easy to slip into that, and you start feeling bad. And for me, I’m just talking about for me personally. I start feeling bad. I start feeling bad about myself. I start again. I lose energy. I lose concentration. So I try and keep up, you know, some sort of routine like that, where I when lunch, you know, I don’t get a hamburger and French fries and a coke for lunch. You know, I get a salad and I drink water. You know, and and I feel better for it. And I don’t gain a million pounds, and you know what I mean. And it’s it’s hard to stay away from that. But in turn, but but ultimately, just for me again, I can’t speak for anybody else. It makes me feel better, and you know, it makes it easier to endure the long hours.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and it’s not just you. I mean, it’s it’s this thing called science. Like I’ve beaten this drum to death for years, and I’ve now talked to people like Walter Murch and Jeffrey Ford and Carol Littleton. Like they all say the exact same thing when I ask them this question of how do you work on these giant tentpole films and get out alive, and the first thing they always say is like I keep moving. Like I take walks during lunch and I try to get some form of exercise. It may not be at the gym every day, but I just try not to be sedentary and sitting and drinking the coke and eating the burgers. But it’s part of the culture. When you say, “Well, you know, it’s it’s hard to not do that, it’s almost impossible because the culture kind of demands it, and that’s actually one of my crusades: is trying to reshape the culture so you don’t feel like you have to do that to be part of the crowd. I have no interest in removing the cokes and the M and M’s and the burgers from the menus. That’s not what I’m interested in, but I want it to be acceptable in a lot of these jobs and these offices. Where if you do want to say, you know what, I don’t really want pizza for lunch today. Do you have another menu? I don’t want people to kind of roll their eyes at you for that anymore. And I’m starting to see that change happen. But hearing it from people at the top that are immensely successful, saying this is one of the reasons I’m able to survive working with Michael Bay on Transformers. That’s very important to hear.

Billy Goldenberg: You know, which I, you know, there are days where I’ve had a hamburger. You know, I mean, there was there are some, but I just try to do it every day. You know, I try to eat healthy most of the time. You know, and and it does happen that when you can’t be perfect, but you can try. And I think you have to make the effort to do that. And it’s just the nature. It’s not even Mike. It’s not even Michael Bay doing it on Transformers. It’s the nature of the film. It’s how many visual effects there are, and how late they come in the process, and how incredibly complicated those movies are. They just turn into a million hours. You know, it’s just it’s it’s a really layered and complicated process, so it’s not Michael even saying you need to stay there. And you know, he actually will tell. He’ll actually just tell people. He’ll say, “You get ready to go home. You know, he actually is quite fair about it. It’s just the nature of the movie more than it is Michael. But you know, there’s guys that I’ve seen work, and there’s they’ve worked so many days in a row, so many hours, they they look gray, you know, and it’s tough. It’s just it’s a really is you have to sort of fight against it, but it is part of post production. I mean, it is intense, you know. You get used to it, or you sort of at least accept it. But it it it is a lifestyle. It’s not a job.

Zack Arnold: Well, I guess at the the same time, I guess my follow up question would be: At what point do you have to be assertive in a situation like that? Because with with TV, it’s a little bit more structured, and it’s one of the reasons that I chose to transition to television because I was slowly kind of rising, you know, up in the the indie film world and had the opportunity to maybe work on some searchlight movies. But I thought, you know what? I just had a kid, and I don’t want to end up in the place where I’m working 14 hours a day, seven days a week. And I’m like, I love television. What if I try to transition into TV? And it served me very well because I mostly nine times out of 10 work five days a week, and I don’t feel like I have to put in these crazy amounts of hours. But I’ve also talked to other friends and mentors that are just about the level that you are, and they’ll say, “Yeah, it’s just expected. We work seven days a week. I don’t even get paid for Saturday and Sunday. Like it’s just madness. So, at what point do you kind of draw the line and say, “Listen, this is part of the job, and I get it, but this this is too much. Like I want I want to start giving people a tool set to start speaking up when the demands are just too much and they’re taking their health at risk.

Billy Goldenberg: Well, here’s the thing. I mean, if you feel your health is a risk, you have to say something. I mean, you can’t. You know, you know, asking for healthy snacks in the cutting rooms shouldn’t be anybody’s. Should no one should be embarrassed about that. Asking for you know roasted almonds instead of you know chopping balls, it shouldn’t make anybody embarrassed, or drinking water instead of Coke, or you know having salad at lunch. And yes, I don’t want pizza. I mean, there’s no, there’s no, no one should ever be embarrassed or made to feel sort of as an outsider, I guess, for to trying to eat healthy. I don’t see that as an issue in any of the rooms, editing rooms I’ve been in, even the transformer editing rooms, you know, works as as sort of hardcore as it gets in terms of hours and intensity. But I don’t see that as a problem, really. I mean, at least it’s not in my experience. But but if you’re working enough hours that you feel like you’re, it’s unsafe, you have to go to the director, the producers, and and say that you know I can’t do this at this level. In turn, when I say at this level, I mean I can’t work you know 110 hours a week. It’s just too much for me. We have to get someone to help. Or and I’d be surprised on any legitimate movie that anybody would say, well, that’s too bad. And you know you got to do it or get out. I mean then maybe you should get out. And I know that’s easy to say and harder to do, but you know you got to put your your health first. I mean, I had a first assistant on a film. We were working lots and lots of hours, and he fell asleep behind the wheel and wrecked his car. And thank God he was fine. And I also worked on a movie where the camera assistant did fall asleep behind the wheel. And was killed. So, I’m very cognizant of people with hours, and if they do work those hours, they they get a car. Somebody they get a car to drive them home. They don’t drive themselves, or they stay at a hotel, or you know, because you can’t do anything that’s going to put your put your life or your crew’s life in jeopardy, you know whether and not and it could be you know and I’m very I try to be very cognizant of that and I think it’s you know I’m a department head on on a feature film it’s my part of my job to do that and I think it’s part of the job as a producer if you’re an editor and you feel like you’re making yourself sick. You gotta. You shouldn’t have to worry about losing your job. You know, if you’re gonna go to the producer or the director and say, “I gotta, we need to have another editor along with me because this is too much for one person. It should never, never be held against you. And if it is, and you, you know, you take recourse. You know, you have recourse.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and really, the the fear is, and this is not me speculating. This is hundreds of people emailing me about this fear. Is they’re going to go to somebody, and the response is going to be, “Well, great, we’ll just find somebody that will do this. And that mentality has been around for decades because I remember when I had interviewed Walter Murch, he said that he was working on a film, and I don’t remember which one exactly, but it was probably Apocalypse Now or Godfather or one of those. And they went to the studio head and said, “Listen, everybody is just dropping like flies. These hours are ridiculous. And whoever the executive was that he was speaking with said, “Okay, well, just get us more flies. And I think that that fear is really there for people. And I’ve even heard people mentioning, “Well, I know you say that I should be taking a walking break every afternoon. I should step away from my desk, but that’s really frowned upon. They want me to be at my desk all day long and not take breaks. And my first response is, “Well, then you should not be working in that kind of an environment. And like you said, yeah, it’s easy to say that, but like this is your life we’re talking about. There are other jobs, but there aren’t other

Billy Goldenberg: Lives, right? Yeah, no, and I, you know, look, I force myself to work harder than I want sometimes too. It’s not like I’m saying like, have a, you know, it’s not hard. I don’t know, you, you know, everybody has like I see people work 1820, hours, and they look like they’re fresh as a daisy, and they’re totally concentrated, and you know, it seems like they just got there, you know, that day. And but for me, I can’t. I can’t really do it. You know, I can’t. I can first cut for 12 hours, and then I’m sort of it’s it’s diminishing return. You know, I can’t work as well after 12 hours or 14 hours than I did in the first few hours. You know, it’s just your mind and body can only go be stretched so far, yeah. I don’t, I don’t, you know. It’s a tough call for people. You don’t want to lose your job, you family. You want to get bills to pay, and you don’t want to have a reputation. But at a certain point, you have to put your health first. I mean, there’s no easy answer to that.

Zack Arnold: Well, and I, I think you bring up a great point as well. That time is not a constant. It’s not like hour one and hour 14 have the same level of creative output, and that’s something that I’ve been talking about on the show for years. Is that you have to look at what you can produce and the quality of work you can produce, not so much how many hours you’re producing it. Because I know a lot of people that work 14 and 16 hours every single day, and they get half as much done as I do in eight hours, because I’ve developed strategies and habits like the ones that you’ve mentioned to make sure that I can produce better creative work in less time. Because I don’t want to work more than a 12-hour day. Like I’m pretty insistent, and granted, I’m on TV shows that are much smaller than the stuff that you work on. But I’m pretty insistent that I’m just not going to work above 12 hours unless there’s some looming deadline where there’s no choice, but just for the sake of getting more done, like I’m I’m out after 12. Like that’s that’s just kind of the way that I do it. That’s my vibe, and people are fine with it once they see that I’ve proven I can get the work done at a high level in those 12 hours.

Billy Goldenberg: Yeah, I mean I’m after all this time of editing, I’m faster than I was before, so I’m fortunate that I can get done get things done faster. I mean, there are like you say, situations where it’s not about how fast you are; it’s about a deadline. And you know, the movie’s coming out in three weeks, and we’re not done. So you know, you can’t. It’s hard to avoid working super long hours in those situations. But you know, short bursts is one thing, but six months of it is another.

Zack Arnold: And I think that that’s the mentality that a lot of people really miss: is they just think it’s always a short burst. It’s a constant sprint over and over and over and over and over. And helping people realize that it really is a marathon. Where if you’re a professional marathon runner, you set a pace as you’re training and say, “Well, my pace is going to be eight minute miles or 10 minute miles, and the last 345, miles they’re kind of a disaster. And if you’re behind your pace, you’re probably going to sprint and you’re going to tire yourself out and you fall across the finish line. But when you set your plan, you have a pace, and I think that a lot of people dismiss that. And I’ve seen people. Get into the first day of a show, and they’re just pushing, pushing, pushing. And I’m thinking, we’ve got seven months of this show. Like you’ve got seven more episodes to cut, one a month. Just chill, man. Like pace yourself. And I think it’s important to have that mentality, knowing eventually the sprints are going to hit and they’re going to wear you out. But you can’t treat every day like a sprint.

Billy Goldenberg: No, I agree. I agree. You know, everybody. You know, but everybody has to figure out what they can do for themselves. You know, like everybody’s different. So, and everybody, what each individual can take is going to be different for everybody. You know, like I said, I mean, I don’t have. I see. I have. I know people have stamina that I just can’t. I can’t. I can’t match up to it. You know, and I’m lucky, either lucky or that I’m pick the directors I’ve been lucky enough to work for have not recently. You know, the short short stint I did on Transformers Five was pretty intense, but I’ve been lucky that I haven’t worked, you know, many 16-hour days lately, and it’s it’s it’s better for it’s better for the work, and it’s better for my family, and better for my health,

Zack Arnold: And it’s really better for everybody at the end of the day.

Billy Goldenberg: Yeah, now you said I can do so if I’m there 615 hours, it’ll take me three hours to do something that would take me half an hour the next day.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, so why not just do it the next morning on a fresh night of sleep as opposed to pushing and pushing? And the work’s probably going to be worse, and there’s going to be more mistakes. And like I’ve had those long days where you have a producer or director that’s insistent on continuing to push through and work 1011, 12, one in the morning, and then you come back the next morning, you’re like, “Well, so this is total crap, and this doesn’t work at all. So maybe we need to start over. And it’s like, “Why did we even do that? You know?

Billy Goldenberg: Yeah, yeah, I know. Trying to do something that’s creative is, you know, you work with lots of interesting people. You know, everybody’s got their own creative process. It’s up to you whether you can deal with it or not.

Zack Arnold: Yeah, and I again, it’s it really goes back to really figuring out what is kind of that line between this is something that’s totally worth it, and this is an amazing experience, and I’m going to put in the extra hours because I would imagine that between working the long hours with Michael Kahn or Michael Mann or Michael Bay, I should call this the Michael Show. It just totally occurred to me that all the people we’re talking about are Michaels, but like that was the most intense and valuable education you ever could have gotten in this industry, way better than you know Annenberg, and I’m sure that’s a fantastic school, but think about all the lessons that you learn from saying you know what, for a while I’m just going to kind of put up with the fact that this is a little bit tougher because of what I’m getting in return from it, and I think that understanding that payoff really helps you reconcile with whether or not it’s truly worth it.

Billy Goldenberg: Yeah, I mean for me I’ve never felt anything but incredibly lucky and grateful for the jobs I have, whether it was you know my first job or the job I have now. You know, so I’ve always had this sort of same attitude about it. I’ve never been, I’ve never gotten cocky about oh, there’s I can just do some other thing. You know, I I take everything as seriously as everything as any other thing. So, because you never know, like what is going, what will inform a decision on another movie. You know, I mean, like you, I learned something on Transformers that I’ll use on Argo, or there was something I used did on Gone Baby Gone that I did on Transformers Three, sort of little technique. So you know, you never. I mean, it’s everything is a learning experience. So, and that’s the great thing about film business is that every, or the challenge thing also is that every movie is different. So that you never really, you know, it’s not like you ever really can master it because there’s every film presents new problems. So you know you have to so soak everything up so you can use all that experience to solve the next problem.

Zack Arnold: Well, I want to be incredibly respectful of your time, and we’re running just about to the end. And we have covered like so many amazing things that have been inspirational just for me, and I hope also for other people that are listening as well. But just as like a last kind of you know goodbye, so to speak. If you could give like one super super simple action step for somebody that’s listening, and they’re saying, you know what, in 20 years I want to be where Billy Goldenberg is right now. Not anything big picture, but just to get them started, just some idea of an action step that could make a difference and move them forwards. Do you have anything that jumps off the top of your head?

Billy Goldenberg: Oh, I mean, jumps off the top of my head. It may not be the best piece of advice, or maybe not helpful. But you’d be surprised. I would say check your attitude. You know, because you’d be surprised about how much how much a good attitude or the or the right kind of attitude can make a difference in your career. I mean, I’ve seen so many people along the way, from PAs to assistants to editors who don’t have their attitude straight and either feel entitled or you know grumpy or or not enthusiastic or or too enthusiastic. So I mean, your demeanor is so important. I mean, obviously you have to be talented. You have to be smart. But I think your demeanor along the way in post production, or I’m sure in all jobs, is is really just such an important thing. And I know it sounds like a trivial piece of advice, but this comes to mind. And it’s, I think you know, like we’ve been talking about these long hours. You know, when you’re going to be with people, you’re going to see people in your in your editing crew that are you’ll see more than your immediate family often times and and so you want to you want other people to want to be around you you know whether that’s an editor and their director or it’s your the the assistant that’s right above you and you’re the PA you want people to want you to be around and and that’s all about attitude.

Zack Arnold: That was not a trivial piece of advice. That may have been the best piece of advice we heard the entire interview. You nailed it. I love that advice, and I think that’s something that everybody listening needs to understand. That people are watching you, whether it’s while you’re working, whether it’s during the interview, whether it’s when you’re at a networking event. Your attitude is so important because this is not a job where they’re just plugging and playing this talent to this skill. This is like a family. This is a marriage. If you’re an editor or an assistant, like so, let’s say that you’re an editor. When the director or the producers are hiring you, they’re thinking, “Can we deal with this guy 14 hours a day in a dark room? Like it’s not just these are great credits and yes, he knows avid. It’s is this a relationship that I’m willing to jump into? And if you’re an editor and you’re hiring an assistant, it’s the exact same thing. Attitude is at the top of my list. Having the actual skills, skills can be taught. I want them to have some basic knowledge, but attitude is so high on my list. I can always teach skills if somebody has the raw material and the passion. So I don’t want you to trivialize at all that piece of advice because it’s fantastic. It’s paramount. I may I may just name the whole episode attitude. Like that was awesome. Well, on that note, we have hit our time, and I want to make sure that you can get back to whatever amazing project you were working on the moment. But this has been absolutely fantastic. I really, really appreciate the time and appreciate the help that you gave me many, many, many years ago. And I hope that we our paths cross again soon, and I’m sure they will because this is a very, very small business. So thank you so much for being on the show.

Billy Goldenberg: Thank you, and thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Zack Arnold

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Surviving the Insanity of the Edit Suite | with Billy Goldenberg, ACE

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